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Collaboration Junkie founder Dave Plunkett explains why agencies collecting partners get almost nothing back from them, and how to run referrals and partnerships as a deliberate system instead of a founder-led accident.
Agency Forward explores the future of agencies as tech and AI drive down the cost of tactical deliverables. Topics include building competent teams, developing strategic offers, systemizing your business, and more.
New episodes delivered every Tuesday.
Chris DuBois (00:01.064)
So Jack Porter Smith introduced us and I think initially my messaging and everything came out as very anti referral to you. What made you want to chat with me in the first place then?
Dave Plunkett (00:03.432)
Hey, yeah.
Dave Plunkett (00:20.12)
So it's an interesting one Chris, and I'm very glad I did by the way. But what made me chat was the fact that Jack had recommended you, that there was this warm introduction piece there. And I think that for me as a referral evangelist, I think that just highlights the power of people do business with people they know, like and trust. And I know, like and trust Jack. So despite...
when I looked at your LinkedIn profile and was interested in you do all the kind of founders scaling past referrals kind of messaging, which just kind of gets me on my high horse a bit. The fact that there was this referral behind it of Jack going, no, Chris is a good guy. Speak to him and it'll be about organic founder led referrals, which you can't scale. I was like, great.
And I'm very glad I did, it was because there was this human connection in the middle of it, I suppose.
Chris DuBois (01:22.408)
Yeah. I feel like marketing does a disservice, I think, to everybody, where it's like we have to take a stance on something, right? Like have a point of view. And so it's very hard for me to go in and be like, no, I I love referrals. Like, happily take referrals all day. I just don't want to rely on referrals. Like I want to have other marketing systems. And so yeah, I think a lot of times my message becomes like, avoid referrals. and like a joke with a couple of clients who while we were working together got some pretty massive referrals.
mainly because they fixed their positioning and so people knew when to refer them, which is great. but I told them, Yeah, no, we'll take their money, we just won't be happy about it. yeah. Joking. We we happily took that money. But but yeah, it is so it is interesting. We have to create like polarized effect, right? To like where you almost say, like we're demonizing referrals in one way, or I am, when in reality, like, no, like keep it's more revenue for your business. Like, take them, just do it right, have a deliberate system. And that's where you come in.
Dave Plunkett (02:00.205)
Yeah.
Chris DuBois (02:20.621)
to actually create a deliberate system. I think you you got the new book that's should be coming out at some point soon on this system. Wanna start there?
Dave Plunkett (02:30.005)
Yeah, dance is my framework for referrals, discovery, assembly, nurturing, connection and engagement. And the book that is with the editor at the moment is on the partnership side of that. So it's the same framework. They're just slightly different between whether you're looking to get consistent referrals from partners or consistent referrals from your clients and your wider network. The people that maybe aren't as aligned in terms of
business output and shared end goal, can't put as much overt process behind that stuff. But yeah, you can absolutely still, you can absolutely still scale them. But you're right on the demonizing thing. I think it's almost seen as like not grown up. Like you get your agency to a certain size through referrals in your network. And then it's like, well, now we've got to kind of do
this grown up stuff of other marketing. And I'm like, I never want to be, this is the channel you should use, right? But my thing is what you definitely shouldn't do is forget the channel that got you to where you were and not make the most of it. It's the most cost effective one. It's the most cost effective channel that you'll have. It's the one that I believe compounds the most. And so Trudy scales.
but it's the one that I think as well, all the other marketing and all the other good outbound stuff and brand marketing, just helps, right? Like you're right. shouldn't be like just for line referrals, particularly as you're getting bigger and you want larger clients. The, the people doing business with people they know, like, and trust a referral shortcuts that process. It doesn't negate it.
Chris DuBois (04:22.631)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Dave Plunkett (04:23.339)
Right? You still need social proof. You still need the, well, you mentioned the positioning, right? I think that's that, that all the stuff that you would do in order to scale your other efforts is only going to enhance your referral and partnership strategy as well.
Chris DuBois (04:38.119)
Right. Yeah. One of the challenges I see the most with referrals specifically is that it like lulls people into this false sense of security where it's like they get some business in, but because of the that referral, right? The trust that they already have with someone else, it's like they come into the sales process and I can close deals way faster because this person's way warmer. They already have the proof they need. But if I get a cold deal coming in, like some prospect who just found me on LinkedIn, it's like it's a much harder sales conversation. Cause you actually have to do discovery and you have to
Right. You're you're not reliant on someone else's word. which is where then positioning comes in, like, okay, well, I can tell you all of these things about me. And so like if this everything I'm doing structurally helps, if that's good for you, awesome. if you can do that and then show the your partners like all of those things that you're doing as well, it's like it only gets stronger, right? Because you have that spot in their brain that they can just refer you quickly. but let's walk through your framework to like set a lot of the like the
process of like finding the prospects and build or well, yeah, partnering prospects I guess would be the term, right? But finding those and like setting the system up so that you have a deliberate like partnership system.
Dave Plunkett (05:48.662)
Yeah, so D is discovery. And if it's partners, that's understanding who your ideal partners are. Particularly in the agency space, the blessing and the curse of the agency community is typically a pretty supportive bunch, right? Like, and there are any number of events and communities you can go to, which means agency owners end up collecting partners, and they're not collecting partners, they're collecting friends and peers. And that's a wonderful thing.
But don't confuse that with people that are actually going be able to refer you consistently. so D is discovery. It's about understanding who those are. And it's about looking at where you sit in the customer value chain. Some agencies will be able to refer you consistently. Others you'll be able to refer consistently to, but not the other way around. And just understanding that is a key part. Because once you've got that and you've got a really strong partner value proposition.
positioning again, it means that when you when you when you're chatting to partners instead of being like, would it be really nice to to remember to introduce Sally and the team at rocket marketing it the partner value proposition is what makes your partners go No Sally and her team are essential to making us look amazing in the eyes of the client We need to proactively get them in front of every single brand we can because because it works
And I think unless you're really tight and defined on who your ideal partner is, then you can't really articulate that value. Much the same as when you're doing outbound and, and if you can't, if you don't have a really tight ICP, then how can you, how can you speak to them? Right. A is assembly system structure, Chris, right? It's, it's other commercials behind it. It's what data are you tracking? how you reporting it back, how you, all that good stuff.
Chris DuBois (07:26.119)
No.
Dave Plunkett (07:39.682)
doesn't win you partners or even referrers like casual referrals. It's not the stuff that wins, but it's the stuff that keeps people referring you consistently because it's the stuff that builds trust. think just saying what you're doing, what you say you're gonna do when you say you're gonna do it is like a vastly underused tactic in life and business today, right?
Chris DuBois (07:59.186)
I I mean that is the that right there is positioning like in a nutshell. Yeah.
Dave Plunkett (08:03.853)
Yeah. Yeah, right. And is nurturing. So it's partner comms. with so like, for the very first time, you have a call with someone all the way through setting expectations, which a lot of people don't do partner onboarding, strategic reviews, all that good stuff. And then but then from a client referral perspective, the nurturing the comms part is about when you ask for introductions, right? I talk a lot about building cultures of referrals in an agency.
So it's not just founder led, not organic founder led, right? That is not a strategy. You can't scale that. That's what, that's what, but it's kind of the original theme of the thing. That's what kind of process driven outbound kind of hooks on is that just relying on a founder's network, you can't do that. You have to build a cultural referrals. That means training a client services team. So it moves from founder led to brand led in the skills. And the first thing was known when to ask.
when in your own customer journeys and agencies, the perfect time to ask the client for an introduction. And then keeping, if people have made referrals to you, keeping them in the loop. So many people don't do this, like it's huge on the trust. See his connection, how do you make it easy for people to refer you? So for your partners, this could be embedding yourselves within their own customer journey, maybe offering a free order or.
or something that means they can proactively refer you. It means they're really proper co-marketing, not just lazily promoting someone else's blog post, like how can we do this in a much more joined up way, which is also a really good way for agencies to leverage tech partners who may not give them direct referrals, particularly if you're a small agency not handing over loads of leads, but if you can come with a really interesting, genuine joined up co-marketing, you can do that.
And then from a client referral perspective, the seat, the connection bit is around those five asks. There's five asks that you can make of a client or someone in your network. And it's which one of that that's a named individual. So someone you know, they know it's an internal referral. So it's them in another location, department, whatever it may be with it. If you're dealing with a big enough client, it's testimony, which is a review or whatever it may be great way of warming someone up for a referral.
Dave Plunkett (10:27.017)
advocacy, which is more, it's less about getting a referral. It's more about if you've got someone in the closing stages of your, of your pipeline, like who can you call on to have a 10 minute conversation with that prospect and just help them over the line, really pass one that people don't use. And then the final ask is something I call situational niching. And that's instead of getting people to refer someone right now because they're the right fit of ICP.
Chris DuBois (10:41.659)
Mm-hmm. Great.
Dave Plunkett (10:57.183)
It's waiting for them, saying you don't want a referral when someone's in the right time to buy. So it's going, I've got my ICP niche, but the real, the real niche is the situations when we're, when we're just, and I call them triggers. You get your referrers to listen out for the words that your prospects use when they really need your services. Right? So they're not, they're not saying they need a new website. They're like apologizing in advance.
about their other one when someone says, you've got a website I can look at and they go, yeah, we were just getting updated or the copy needs update. Do you know what mean? It's going like, it's unpicking that human language. Cause that's the problems that an agency solves, right? And back to positioning, okay? It all comes back to positioning and people refer you to what you do, not what you sell. They're not referring an agency because of a five point process. They're referring an agency because of how...
problems they solve, the opportunities they help realise and how to make people do it. And then E is engagement. So for partners, how do you go out and find partners? What materials do you need? What does a partner deck look like? And for your referrers, it's kind of going about how we actually put this into practice, what are the words that we're using to make it feel natural and not icky. And that's that. I mean, that's the framework in a nutshell. There's obviously a lot more to it kind of thing.
To my own point, people don't work with me for the framework. The framework's a thing. They work with me because I help them solve those, the nuances of that, right? So, yeah.
Chris DuBois (12:26.215)
Right. Yeah. Which of which of those five steps in the framework do you feel agencies get wrong the most?
Dave Plunkett (12:34.989)
So for the partnerships, 100 % the discovery phase, it all starts from really understanding who your ideal partner is. Most of the time, the first work I do with an agency is take the 40 partners and go, right, you want to concentrate on these five, right? People come to me with that, I need more partners because they're not producing enough leads. And it's like, you don't need more partners. You need the right partners to focus on and build really good relationships with, right?
Definitely that on client referrals.
It's the connection bit. It's knowing what to ask and how to ask it. All too often it will be pipe guys looking low, let's send an email out, a blanket email kind of maybe offering someone an Amazon voucher or something if they refer, right? Or some cash, which has the opposite effect, by the way. Or in a client review meeting, taking a deep breath and suddenly going in the middle of a friendly conversation. we would like work with you. Do you know anyone else who might need our services? And they're all feeling very icky.
So I think client referrals is that bit. It's the fact that you can lean into being human about it. But, with partners is, it's definitely getting that right at the start.
Chris DuBois (13:44.052)
Right. something we had used at the agency I used to run was at the start of the and this goes back to you you mentioned like setting a culture of referrals. but like one of the things we had done at the start of the engagement was saying, hey, if you're happy, like at the end, we're going to ask for a testimonial. We're also gonna ask for probably some referrals. Like if you're happy with our work, otherwise, like you're good. We're not gonna ask you for a testimonial if we suck, right? but if you're happy, we'd love to get some testimonials. And now bringing it up later isn't doesn't feel weird.
it also keeps it top of mind for them if you have it at different points in in the conversation. So now you're not getting to the end of the conversation being like, Well, where where are those referrals you promised me? and it's not you know, not as awkward. but yeah.
Dave Plunkett (14:28.876)
Yeah, I know people that put in their onboarding forms. And it's a similar one. The last piece was around, we mentioned that we might ask that we'll ask for referrals when you're happy. But I think they put when you're happy with our work, we ask for referrals, go, we don't offer cash in centres, we know that's not why I'll do it. But we do like to say thanks. And I can't remember what they asked. They asked that favourite type of music. asked some stuff that means they could pull out.
to be able to provide a really personal gift at the end as well. And it was like, that's them. they just, as you said, it removed all awkwardness. that bringing it up to other points made it that much easier. And even earlier, once you say, you'd like, once you've brought up the subject of referrals once, it's so much easier to bring up again, because one of the other mistakes, not just agencies, all businesses do, is wait too long to ask for a referral, right?
Chris DuBois (15:03.047)
Right. That's a good idea.
Dave Plunkett (15:27.812)
There's only one person Chris who's decided if there's been enough, if you've delivered enough value to introduce you. And it's not you, it's the person sat across the table on the screen from you, right? Your discovery process could be so good that that's it. They're ready to refer. I use the example of when I got my branding done, like seven years ago now, maybe just under, during COVID. It was the first time I'd ever had branding done properly for a business where I'd fallen into being a business owner.
knew the agency owner. The fact that meeting up for drinks tomorrow actually, which is nice. But anyway, I knew it was gonna be good. I was super excited. I already had the name. When I got the first kind of concepts back though, it just blew me away. I was sat at this very table actually, and it absolutely blew me away. When they delivered the final assets, like a month down the line, it was great.
but all they were doing was delivering against my heightened expectations. It couldn't be better. And we all agencies have these other wow moments that are either earlier in the journey or a lag, right? Like if it's web development, right? That can be pretty stressful at like go live time. So that's not necessarily the best time to ask. And so one of these things is that, and particularly if you've seeded it early, like you mentioned, immediately it...
just makes it easier for you to maybe drop it in conversation at these at these at these other points. And it's not like you're going, right, who can you refer me to now is if someone says about how amazing your discovery process was, and the previous agency they work worked with were awful like that didn't take the time to understand their business, whatever, that is not good. Really? Like, can we get your black book out now? It's going, that's amazing to hear. Thanks, Chris. And look, always.
If you've got other founders that are moaning about their agency's not knowing them, then we'd always love an intro. And so you'll just, it feels so different, but you can do that nice and early. Right?
Chris DuBois (17:34.596)
Right. Yeah. So I was an advisor to partner hub. And so just helping agencies find tech partners and and building those relationships and stuff. one of the things that I found across the board was like almost everyone's just going into the partnership game to find leads. from the agency side specifically. Tech side, I didn't work that piece as much. But the it was like Legion is the the thing for almost everybody.
And and so they're going into the engagement saying, like, how what can you give me rather than what can I actually contribute to you? which was always felt not great right for building partnerships. And and like I've had the experience even in my own coaching practice where I'll find there are some people who when I have something I can offer, they're very quick to like jump in and remind me they exist. but as soon as it's like it never flips back where it's like, hey, here's some things for you to keep me in mind later. but
What do you recommend for like an agency who wants to build more partnerships? right. So they're they're finding the potential target audience and stuff or who would make the best partners for them, but how do they show like their value to the partner to make sure that this isn't just a one way type of engagement?
Dave Plunkett (18:52.266)
Okay. And so, and this is that call. This is that discovery bit I spoke about where most agencies get it wrong. Right. And the reason why most agencies do is a lot of them will set it set particularly agency to agency will be based on cross-referral and it just doesn't work kind of in the e-comm space. There's a, there's some agency types that performance marketing and, and dev that can kind of loop back round with each other. But in general is rare that
the agency that you can refer lots of work to will be able to give you as much back and vice versa. And so it's really about uncovering why is that agency gets value from you, right? And because, it's not necessarily, if it's not leads, it's not necessarily commissioning. I'm a big fan of putting commercials behind partnerships. It gets cool.
I'm going to imagine that it's a more comfortable conversation, stateside than it is here in the UK. You get a lot of people that feel a bit icky about it and they'll call it a kickback, which can feel quite kind of seedy back alley. It's a cost of sale, Chris, right? Like if someone is handing you leads, it is a cost of sale and one of the lowest cost of sales you're going to probably end up with, right? So I'm a big fan of doing it, but it's still not the main reason why someone will refer you. All an agency wants really is happy clients.
Chris DuBois (19:53.81)
Mm-hmm.
Dave Plunkett (20:14.06)
who stay longer and spend more. And you do that by delivering what the agency wants. And so the ideal referral partners for an agency are the people that come just before them, right? Because then you as an agency, if you can help another agency deliver the thing that the customer is after, that's your value prop, right? So let's use content and copy, right? Going to a web dev, right? Now,
The copyright is client value proposition could be we write copy that converts. I hope it would be more imaginative than that if they were a copywriter, but you get the gist, Yeah, if they go to a web development company, build company and go, we should work together because I can write great copy for your clients that converts, it kind of makes sense, but it still feels like that content agency is only going there
Chris DuBois (20:55.187)
I'm with you. Yeah.
Dave Plunkett (21:12.982)
to farm leads, right? The partner value proposition is at the end of the day, no one's going to that website, web dev company for a website that is well built. They're going to it for it to do something, right? And so the partner value proposition becomes together will produce websites that convert, right? And it's such a subtle shift, but then the web goes, yeah, you know what? And then there's the second one, and also you won't be waiting around on copy.
Not only will our copy be better, but you won't be waiting around on it from the client for ages, delaying your project. So there's all these other, and it's tapping into that. It's like, what does a partner really care about? And what I do, anyone can do this, write a list of all the value you offer to a client. And that can be practical stuff, like well-written copy, da-da-da-da-da, and emotional stuff. And then on the right-hand side, go.
Why would my ideal partner care about this? What's in it for them because of this? And then suddenly when you're having a conversation like we are now with a potential partner, they're like, yeah. And that's what shifts it. That's what shifts it from, would it be nice to refer these guys to, we need to put you in front of. And then all the other process, the A, the the C, the E in my framework just falls into place because the other party is.
Chris DuBois (22:13.971)
Yeah. It's
Dave Plunkett (22:37.996)
wants to make it as easy as possible to get you in front of the audience. And that's the key thing.
Chris DuBois (22:40.199)
Right. And they're bought in. Yeah.
Chris DuBois (22:45.587)
I love how much positioning comes into this. as a as a positioning coach, I'm I'm purely selfish in this. But the because yeah, when I'm looking at like a client's positioning, even my own positioning, it's like I with my model, we 11 levers. We're looking at how do we stand out in these? What's our what stack do we need to create? The something that a lot of I think people miss when they're working on their positioning is that they they look at it and they say, This is how I want to be seen. Let me put it out there. But you have to look at from the buyer's perspective, do they even care?
Dave Plunkett (22:47.596)
I- I- I- I- I- I-
Chris DuBois (23:15.471)
about that position. Like, do they care that they you can do these things? So do they see the benefit to them? And so just shifting that, like you have your positioning for how you want the buyers to see you, but then also you want the positioning for how you want your partners to see you. Because and now is this of benefit to them? Can they see that? And then there's obviously the value chain of like, can it you see it trickle down to their clients as well? but I think the other benefit of doing that is like you make it very clear who how you're the best partner and like who the best partner for.
And so when they when they say, Hey, we really need someone who can deliver asynchronously and you know, I don't know, has a their pricing model is shows like the incentives for for the end buyer, all of these different things, it's like I know exactly who to go to and I can pick that agency out very quickly for my partnerships, assuming I have five agencies maybe that I'm partnered with, like I know that these are you are the best fit for these, so I think of you right away. yeah.
Dave Plunkett (24:11.788)
could not agree more. So particularly, I think where you're, let's say you're a smaller agency and you're working with a larger agency, a partner that does have multiple partners, I always say to people, you want to be really, really memorable, the 15 % of the time that the right leads for you drop into that thing. Don't try to be memorable all the time because if you're just vague 100 % of the time, you'll get nothing. Just like rely on that, rely on that 15 % that wanted.
Chris DuBois (24:34.119)
Hundred percent. Yeah.
Dave Plunkett (24:37.782)
I should have gone 10 or 20, that one and 10 or that two and 10 where they drop in. As you say, right, be memorable then, FOMO is the killer of referrals. If you want to build intentional referrals that work in some way like a predictable outbound thing, you have to go over your FOMO, right? You have to kind of go, no, this is who we serve and this is how we serve them.
Chris DuBois (24:40.007)
Yeah.
Chris DuBois (24:59.464)
Mm-hmm.
Dave Plunkett (25:04.628)
And that and and whether that's and it does all come down to positioning with the with with client referrals is all about understanding on an emotional level the problems that you solve them the way that you work and yet on the partnership stuff, it's really about understanding where you fit in that overall ecosystem.
Chris DuBois (25:20.197)
Yeah. And that's interesting. So like one of one of the levers that I look at for differentiation is operational constraints. And so being able to say what you don't do because then it it immediately removes them from trying to figure out could they help with this? Like, no, no, they only help with this, right? So it it makes it much clearer. But yeah, you're right. If you go to like the clients, they probably care more about the outcome differentiator and saying, like, well, what could you create? because I think even with partners, they have some influence over that final outcome as well. And so now it's like,
A plus B equals you know, whatever we're creating, whether it's F or G or something. But the so yeah, it's interesting how the you still need like one clear position, but how it impacts two different people is like a messaging.
Dave Plunkett (25:54.624)
Yeah.
Dave Plunkett (25:58.657)
Yep.
Dave Plunkett (26:02.796)
Yeah, it's a commercial position with a partnership. And I don't mean I don't necessarily mean financial. mean, customer wants to get to this end point, we both help them get to that end point. This makes sense, right? Like there are still additional levels like, because there's the business, there's the business bit of a partnership, and we'll have your business look good. Depending on the size of organization you're working with, if you can then have the secondary value props of how I'm going to make the person leading the partnership look good as well. That's that's the double whammy, right?
Yeah, but then with referrals, personal, a one-to-one referral is a much more personal thing. There is so much trust baked in on that, that it becomes about, it becomes about the emotional drivers of the problems that you solve and how you solve them. Yeah.
Chris DuBois (26:39.421)
Yeah.
Chris DuBois (26:45.937)
Right. So yeah, have you ever now I'm just I'm going off script. have you ever considered running like outbound campaigns for partnerships? Like to to create? Yeah. How d how do you think about that?
Dave Plunkett (26:53.164)
You
Dave Plunkett (26:58.934)
I'm screwing.
Dave Plunkett (27:02.646)
So unsurprisingly, the first thing that I get people to do when they're looking for new partners is to look at their existing network, right? And ask for help. So if you've got people in your network who you think would be partners, but you don't want to approach them for like out of that, you go, hey, I'm building, I'm actually paying attention to my partnerships. I think you sit right within that, I would love to test my positioning out with you. And most people are nice people, right? Especially after you stroke their ego by saying that you value their opinion.
And so like you'll get good partnership conversations there. Next step is referrals. Like who do you know that knows the right other partners for you? And it could be your clients. Like particularly if you're going outside of agency, if you've got a really niche sector, then you can definitely go outside of agency. You can ask your clients like who you use, who's your accountant, who's your whatever like. But then when it comes to outbound, it's back to when, it's back to having a really strong.
part of the valid proposition is all positioning again, right. And it's not doing a mass is making it more tailored. It's it's it's
Dave Plunkett (28:14.218)
Partnership is still based on relationships at its core. so any outbound kind of colder approach still needs to reflect that, I think. And I think that's that piece around referrals not being grown up marketing kind of thing.
Chris DuBois (28:25.021)
Mm-hmm.
Dave Plunkett (28:37.856)
And I know that's people relating to it being organic, found the ledges, relying on it coming in. I think that's where actually, because outbound is getting a pretty hard time of it at the moment as well. But not good outbound. What's getting a bad time of it is awful AI personalization at scale, slop outbound. And I think they're both in the same buckets. If you think that that's what outbound is, well, that's not very grown up either.
Chris DuBois (28:59.068)
Yeah.
Dave Plunkett (29:06.868)
I've done my new bits because I've filed off a thousand random messages like personalization at scale and all that rubbish. And so I think there's just this, I think there's this more respectful way to look at how we do business, right? to do trust, trust is an absolute premium now, Chris, right? And so.
Chris DuBois (29:12.774)
Mm-hmm.
Chris DuBois (29:30.959)
A hundred percent.
Dave Plunkett (29:31.404)
Good news for me because people are kind of looking back at the highest trust level of peace. But it means you've got to be really, really good in your positioning, in your brand marketing and everything else to back that up at the moment.
Chris DuBois (29:34.097)
Yeah.
Chris DuBois (29:45.352)
Right. Yeah. I mean, we're definitely in a like trust economy. I think the people with the most trust are the ones who are going to be able to command the most business. They're getting the most attention because people know they can trust them, rely on them. yeah, it's it's where it's at. And so referrals, if anything, are only gonna become a bigger part of this because like a business period, I think, because if we're if I have to sort out between
10 different agencies that are all saying generally the same thing. It's like, yeah, your positioning can stand out, but people can copy the positioning on your website. They can write. So it's now how do you show up? And one of the fastest ways to get that across is through a referral by having someone else say, like, they crushed it on this project. yeah, we met, we only had to meet like two times and they delivered the full website. Like, those are the things you want them like bringing up about your positioning. but yeah, I think that's only gonna get stronger.
as we go into this. So it's probably the same with partnerships as well, right? Being able to find connect with those companies, have similar values that you can you can each benefit from each other and and grow it. And so
Dave Plunkett (30:51.263)
Yes, it's a long way to continue. as I said, it's part of a mix though, right? Back to that whole thing, I think there is this conflict because the world is polarised. That's how it's kind of almost shoved into these lanes of like, you have to be polarised because that's what people will respond to. But actually, getting the mix right, like the quickest leads you're ever going to get, and not probably referrals actually, it's people that you've already spoken to and know, right? That's that.
Chris DuBois (30:52.711)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dave Plunkett (31:19.007)
that proposal you never followed up on, whatever it may be. In next week, it's almost certainly going to be referrals. But that's the stuff that you can do while you build out these other systemized approaches, while you decide who your ideal partners are, while you start that kind of targeted outreach campaign, while you do all this other stuff. I think it's about, I think the agencies that will thrive will be the ones that understand it's not an either, either, or.
and that it's not a mass approach, it's about being personal and conveying trust and building that across multiple touch points.
Chris DuBois (31:59.24)
Yep. Cheers. All right. as we wind down here, two more questions for you. First one, what book do you recommend every agency owner should read?
Dave Plunkett (32:05.322)
Okay.
Dave Plunkett (32:09.993)
Okay, so this is not just agency owner, I'm gonna go just in general. And it's the subtle art of not giving a fuck by Mark Manson, which is just brilliant, right? And choosing the fucks that you give, I think has been one of the key change shifts for me over the last few years kind of thing. I'm just embracing that.
Chris DuBois (32:31.547)
Yeah. so read the book, like very much enjoyed it. It also that was the first book that I I think I read and had like realized a business book even can truly pull your personality into it. Like he had one there's one portion of the book where he's talking about like some cocaine addict building a snowman out of cocaine or something. It was just like a very absurd thing, but it was like it was hilarious in the book. And I was like, when I write a book in the future.
I can actually like do I don't need to be just like prim and proper and like have everything lined up. So yeah, multiple reasons you should check out the book.
Dave Plunkett (33:05.163)
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. was the same with me. I think it's maybe only the fourth. I think I listened to it on an audible. It was only the fourth or fifth book I'd listened to. And the one before, I think I'd stopped halfway through. It was just too, too raw and inspirational for me. like, can't do this. And so was such a, such a refreshing change, but still, which made it even more powerful. So I think it's really.
Chris DuBois (33:22.887)
Yeah.
Chris DuBois (33:28.401)
Yep. but yeah. And then when when does your book this wasn't one of my two questions, so don't count it as that, but when are you planning for your book to come out?
Dave Plunkett (33:38.923)
OK, so because it'd be January. Essentially, don't think it's going to be ready this year. It misses like the silly season of events and speaking. So rather than giving myself yet another thing to do on my to do list, I'm going to I've waited this long. I was supposed to launch the business with it and then didn't many years ago. So I'm to do it in January and do it properly. So yeah.
Chris DuBois (33:43.347)
January. Right. Kick off the year.
Chris DuBois (33:49.331)
Yeah.
Chris DuBois (34:04.787)
All right. So everyone can look for that. and then yeah, last question, where can everybody find you?
Dave Plunkett (34:11.019)
So collaborationjunkie.com is the website. And then LinkedIn, Dave Plunkett on LinkedIn. There's not many Dave Plunkett's out there. Certainly not ones that just bang on about referrals all the time. So, yeah.
Chris DuBois (34:22.023)
Yeah. Hmm. Interesting. That's yeah, that's a benefit to you. Like my my challenge right now is when you search Chris Dubois in like AI results, there's a country music songwriter who pops up for everything. And I'm like, how how do I beat this guy? I gotta like yeah, anyway. Figure it out. Maybe I'll change the name. But with that, Dave, thanks for joining. this has been a long time coming, so I'm glad we we finally made it happen.
Dave Plunkett (34:37.631)
Yeah.
Dave Plunkett (34:50.325)
Yeah, thanks having me. It's been great.