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After the Vows is a podcast about the real challenges that arise in marriage after the honeymoon phase fades. Hosted by Joe & Karen Coffey, each episode offers honest conversations about growing together through every season of marriage. New episodes drop every Thursday, offering real talk, real struggles, and real hope—whether you're newly married or decades in.
Welcome to After the Vows, a podcast from Christ Community Chapel about the challenges that show up in marriage after the honeymoon ends. I'm Joe Coffey, and together with my wife Karen, we will gather in each episode with some friends just to talk about the real issues that happened in every marriage. I hope you'll join us. Well, welcome to, uh, this episode of After the Vows. Uh, we are talking about one of the top three areas of conflict in marriages. Uh, today, uh, we're gonna talk about money. When money feels like a minefield. That's our title. So, uh, let me just introduce our guests for, uh, today. I have my co host and lovely wife, Karen. Hi. And then our friends, Jimmy and Emily Kozy. Welcome. Hello. Hey. Thanks for having us. All right. Uh, first, how long you been married? 15 years. Almost. Almost 15 years. 15 years in December. Yep. And we have, for those of you who are viewing, you're about to see, uh, their wedding picture. If you would take a look at that. Jimmy, you gotta tell me what kind of flower is that you are wearing in that? Think you've got me. That's a bird of paradise. Is it? Yeah. Is that's what it's called? That's what it's called. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, I got you there. You thought you were gonna. I did. I thought I'd have you. Uh, there's still time in the. Was good. That was good, though. But it is exotic for that time because it was December. So obviously those are tropical flowers. But I wanted what I wanted. No expense, as John Hammond said. All right. Um, where did you get married? Uh, we got married at the church that I grew up in, which was a small Baptist church in Akron. So, yeah, it was here in Ohio, and we've never lived anywhere else. And where did you go in your honeymoon? Puerto Vallarta, Mexico. Okay. Yeah, it was December. It was great because, you know, our wedding was in December and there was a big snowstorm the night we got married, and we just flew out. Thankfully, we made it out because they had a huge storm right after we left. Our flight was like, at 6am it was a bad idea. Huge mistake. Don't ever do that. Yeah, I always think that that's bad. Yeah. After the. But I don't regret it. Anything. But let me. Let me ask you this. Since we're talking about money in your, uh, numbers guy, how. How much did your honeymoon cost? Do you remember? Um, see, our parents were very generous to us. Uh, and so I don't actually know what our honeymoon costs. I think his Parents paid for our. And my parents paid for. They had a timeshare that they transferred over. So I actually don't think it cost us much of anything. And that was the day of our. You know, the day before our wedding was the second time my dad ever approached me with an envelope full of cash. He said, this for your honeymoon. The first time was, you can skip the whole wedding and just take this and we'll elope. And here's your cash. He still wanted me to marry that Seems like that would. That would tempt you. You better believe it. You. Y. You couldn't sell it. Did not tempt you. Yeah. Cause she wanted the paradise. I did. Be clear for anybody listening. I do like envelopes full of cashah if you're handing them out. All right, one more question and we'll get into it. Uh, was your first year of marriage, uh, easier or harder than you thought it would be? I would say it was harder. I had just started, uh, a new job as a nurse, so I worked night shift. And so we got married. I had my orientation of maybe six weeks, and then I started on nights. And so every morning I would be coming home and he would be waking up. He would cook me dinner when I got home. So at 7am M. He was making me dinner, and I was basically garbage throughout the entire day. And then it would start again the next night. And so I think really early on we had to figure out, okay, how do we spend time together? What does that look like? Emily's falling asleep everywhere. You know, it just switching everything about our lives at that time was so challenging. So I think I would say it was more challenging, but maybe not for the reasons that most or that a lot of people. Y. I think we remember one stretch where I had just started working at the church and we were both home and went, I think, 16 consecutive days without sleeping in the same bed at any point in time, just because of the schedule. Flip flop. Yeah, so. Okay. That would be difficult. All right, we're gonna talk about money. And money can be, uh, an area of conflict, uh, for and usually is at some point in, uh, every marriage. Uh, what is the smallest amount of money that you've ever had a conflict over? And, um, before you answer. Well, go ahead and answer that, Karen. I know you remember, so go ahead. I do remember. We were married in college and we. He did not have very much money, but we had a blast the first couple years being married in college. Um, we. How sat for a family who was kind to us like your parents. And, um, Joe was playing basketball. They paid for me to go to Hawaii to see the basketball games. And while in Hawaii, I wanted to buy a pair of shorts that were kind of, um, popular in that particular area. And so I purchased them for $10. And I was like, what do you think we're made of? Do I look like a money car? Y. All right. Bill Gates. Yeah. It was not good. Not much. It was not good. No. Uh, she felt so, so bad. Yes. Yeah. Proceeded to ruin a couple of days like that. And I was thinking, this trip is kind of free, special. I'm gonna buy some shorts. Needless to say, I haven't buy the shorts. Yeah. Yeah, I haven't, uh, done that for a while. So. Again, she never bought shorts again. Sor. Shorts again. Sorry. Just want let you know. Yeah. All right. So now you guys. Yeah, I mean, uh, Emily was just telling me before the show that she is unhappy with the length of the showers that I take. Well, yeah, you tried to claim that that didn't have to do with money, which really makes me question. Well, you know, I said, he takes really long showers. And, uh, that sometimes bothers me because, you know, every bit of water costs money. Hm. And so, I mean, I don't. I'm not always mad when you shower, but, you knowably, sometimes for the best. I think we also maybe in the same vein, I. This is maybe a controversial opinion, but, uh, I will open the windows at night when the air conditioning is on, because my logic is the air conditioning only kicks on when the temperature in the house goes below whatever temperature you set it at. So if the temperature outside is lower than that temperature, it doesn't matter if you open the windows, you're not air conditioning the outside. Um, all of. She doesn't agree with that perspective. I would prefer not to put the heat on until. Well, that's different. That's degrees in our house or something like that. You know, that's silly, but that also costs money. Do you know this? I do know it costs o. And I'm willing to pay it because it's cold outside. Okay, well, that s. That's our conf. This is good. Yeah. I was afraid you guys wouldn't have conflict. There's no conflict. We're starting one. Dr. I need to stop the podcast right now. This is like counseling, right? You can help us. Yeah, I thought that's what we were here for. All right. Uh, one of the problems with money is that it's a zero sum game, it seems like, where if you spend money on one thing, that means you can't spend money on something else. And usually least in most relationships, the fights, the conflict doesn't happen with essentials. Right. Like groceries. Uh, like, I remember early on when we were. We were pretty lean. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah. I think I want to be careful using the word poor because, you know, we didn't have any money, but I don't feel like we were poor poor. But, um. But when we were lean and didn't have much money, I remember you breaking into hives buying groceries. And I was saying, we have to eat, so don't. Unless we're throwing large amounts of food away, you're doing fine. But that was hardus. I'd already told you about the shorts. I knowe that was PTSD from short. Um, so with non essentials, uh, where are areas that you guys. How do you make decisions about non essentials. How do you make decisions about, let's say, how much to pay for vacation, whether your'kids I know your kids go to heritage. How did you make that decision? Um, how do you make decisions on, uh, giving? How much to give, who to give to? I know, Emily, you have a, ah, huge heart, and you minister to a lot of different people in different ways. Um, and I would guess, Jimmy, you probably find out about some of the stuff after it's already happened. Yeah. Right. So, uh, how do you make decisions about all that? I wanted to just add it'be important to note for the audience that Emily keeps the books and Emily pays the bills. So that's why you get nervous about the showers in the air and the heat. And so that also makes a difference on who's spending, and that's what they're spending. Yeah, we need to back up too, because, uh, Jimmy, you were a math major. All right, Let me just say that again. You were a math major, and I am, um, like, I like numbers too. And I think both our wives pay all the bills, uh, for us. I don't know how it happen. I don't like the minutiae of that or something detail. But you started doing that and have done it our whole, uh, lives, uh, as a married couple. Like, how did you guys decide that? It seems like it would have made perfect sense for you to do it. That's a good question. I was thinking about that today because of this. But, uh, I think a couple of things. I think that were factors in that. First of all, you know, that's how it happened in the house that I grew up In. Right. And I think a lot of times we underestimate how much of an impact our family that we came from and the way things simply operated in that household will impact the way. So I am very numbers oriented. Uh, yeah. And that's interesting because, you know, I have it point in my notes. In almost every episode, we're saying you don't just marry a person, you marry a family. So how your family handled money andah how Emily's family handled money is both important. I knew that in my house, my m. Dad was aware of what was going on with the finances and, and obviously was involved in big picture decisions. And. But, uh, my perception at least was that my mom. My mom was the one who would sit at the kitchen table. You know, back then, things weren't paid online, so she would be balancing a checkbook and writing checks to pay the utility bills and so on and so forth. And so I think in some respects, I brought that with me into marriage. Where my approach initially was, in my opinion, as long as the bottom line looks good, then. And she just kind of filled space that I left void. Because obviously if you don't pay your bills, somebody starts asking you to pay them. And so I think she was like, well, these letters keep coming. Why don'why. Don't we do something about it? Uh, and so I think that's how it started. But I think one thing I would add is over time, one of the things that I became convinced and convicted of was that in some ways I was leaving too much space. I was actually abdicating some responsibility that I think the Lord had for me, um, in our finances. Because I think that, uh, finances are. They'a logistical consideration, but actually they are definitely a spiritual and relational consideration as well. You know, like, uh, Jesus draws a straight line from your money to the condition of your heart. And so I think, uh, if you are married and you wanna know if your heart is united and in the same place, but one of you is completely disengaged from the finances other than looking at the bottom line, then that's actually a problem. That's something that's really good. Good. And that's where I feel like I was. And I felt that too. I felt like every month I was looking, I was, okay, this is how much we brought in, this is how much we went out. And then. And I would feel the weight of, uh, you know what, it's January, we overspent on Christmas or whatever it was, or it's February, we pay tuition in February. So, you know, Right. Whatever it might be. And I'd be like, hey, we're. We need to. You know. And he would just say, well, we're pretty good. I'd look at the balance. He would be like, we're still in the black. It's ok. We're in the black. I felt the full weight of it where I was like, okay, if I just buy cans instead of fresh. And I was looking at probably pennies and nickels, where he was just, you know, looking at the big number and the other number and it was fine. But the pennies and nickels ended up being the big number. Yeah, well, I'd like to think that they did. When I was buying cans, I was like, that applies except when it comes to showers. I see. I see where the problem. Yeah. But I think from my perspective, I think what the Lord convicted me of is that, uh, I was abdicating. Iiving. I was not caring for Emily. It mattered to her that I was engaged. And so independent of whether I grew up in a house, uh, where the details were, or my dad was in the details, which I think, like, my parents had. Have a great marriage. I don't. You know, but every marriage is a little bit different. What Emily needed from me was for me to be more involved in the day to day of our finances, to pay more attention to, not simply look at the bottom line and say, well, if we're fine, we're fine. What's the difference? So it does seem like, and this is a great point, that, uh, if money is one of the top three areas of conflict and somebody is not engaged, what you're saying is that you, uh, were neglecting at least an opportunity to grow closer together. Absolutely. Ye for intimacy. And I would agree wholehearted. Like I said earlier, I feel like u. You know, like the Bible is pretty clear. Jesus says, where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. And I think that is you are missing out on an opportunity to really, uh, connect. There is a relational aspect to money. I think when we think about money and marriage, everybody m immediately moves to the practical of how do we get out of debt and how do we, you know, work. Work our finances for future. How do we build with compound. And there's a lot of minutiae you can get into, but I think at its core, it's actually a relational thing because there's such a direct connection between your wallet and your heart. Right. And it's a way to tie your hearts together and unite your hearts in marriage. I think that we've found that, you know, I think it's been a couple, maybe a little over a year and a half now since I've really started to get involved in the day to day of our finances. And I think I would just say I feel as if our marriage has grown more quickly in that time period than it was growing before that. Because she feels like. She feels seen and heard that I'm in the trenches where she wanted me to be, and I'm no longer abdicating leadership and responsibility that the Lord has called me to. Yeah, but you have to get in the trenches in a certain way. Right? Because I think there are some people that would be listening, that would be thinking, whoever's handling the finances, going, I need that. Like a hole in the head. Yeah. The other person. Love all of the involvement. I mean, there's some involvement that I'm like, okay, well, uh, I did spend maybe more at Costco or something than I expected to. Well, the good thing about Costco is you can always take it back and they won't even. That's true. A big fan. That's true. Costco. This podcast is brought to you by Costco. I feel less on an island when he's involved. And I like even just the idea of a shared goal, like, hey, how about we just try to do this? Or how about we try to give this? Because we're really, uh. Well, I think a good example is, you know, the church. We've launched every Minute Matters initiative, and we wanted to make a commitment to that, but that required us to sit down and say, what can we actually. What does it look like to be sacrificial here? What can we actually do? And that was not just about dollars and cents. That was about us that'being united together on a decision to ultimately pursue something that the Lord was calling us to pursue. And that's a totally different thing than, do we have enough money to pay the bills this month? That's a much more meaningful and deeper conversation. So, Karen, we are just about to have our 45th anniversary, and you have handled the money. Do you feel like, uh. Like I've been involved in. Because this is a really good point. Really good conversation. Yes. Yes. I feel like, um, you definitely have been involved, and I think, um, we talk about different things and how they're budgeted. I think early on, and I was curious to see if you guys had done this, we had a certain amount of money that we would say, okay, if it's $50 or under $50, you can go ahead and kind of Buy without talking about it, but anything over that, um, we'd like to discuss it. So I think we did that. And, um, that has always been helpful and to the giving point. I always enjoy. It's fun for me when we talk about, okay, let's, you know, we got this letter or we're going to give to somebody. Um, how much would you give? And we both kind of say it at the same time. It's almost always the same amount, which I really. I love it when that happens. Now, uh, uh, with money, a lot of times money, um, is used for some kind of reward. Uh, have you ever had, uh, like a certain line item that is your, like, um, your money to do with whatever you want. Oh, and u. Uh, the other thing is, have you always had a joint? Like, we have always had a account. Yeah. So for us, I mean, we have always had full visibility to everything. Neither of us hold, uh, any kind of separate accounts. I think that's actually super important. Yeah, I would agree. I agree. Uh, I don't know how you can be on the same page with finances if you have separate accounts. It's just impossible. Uh, some friends who don't have visibility. And I would say that that's definitely. You're listening to this. If there's some reason why you don't have visibility, ask the question, why not? And if you're unwilling to give somebody visibility, why not? Like, if you're gonna be married and your hearts are gon toa be united, then there's got to be. It's got to be nothing to hide, right? Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing we use, I think we use. We use an app that, uh, we both have. That's the. I mean, modern technology, I think, makes this a lot simpler. Um, where our whole budget is laid out and every. It connects into everything. So every transaction shows up basically in real time. And we can set the budget. So we do have. Each of us has a certain amount of money that is in every monthly budget that is set aside for whatever you want to do with it. Um, I would say it almost never gets fully spent for both of us or for either of us, but it does exist. Yeah. Right now we're really. You mentioned talking about just the essentials. We're kind of focusing on essentials. And we count. You mentioned heritage. We count. Heritage is one of kind of the. Our essentials that we're just. We want to put that money into, um, the Christian education for our kids. But we do have, like, in our budget, we have a line item that, you know, Emily's fund, the money and Jimmy's fun money. But again we don't really spend a lot of it right now. How about when you're discussing stuff like if you're four children, uh, when you're thinking about uh, birthday parties or Christmas or even further down the road and talking about three girls having three weddings, four kids, maybe going to college. Yeah. Um, how do you decide about those things that are long term? When do you talk about those? When do you talk about money? We uh, talk fairly regularly, I think simply because we're both pretty in tune with what's going on now. So as things rise, arise, we have conversations about it in the day to day. I think, ah, another thing that just happened pretty recently, you know, our, our van died just was like not going to make it. We need it. We had to buy a new. We knew we had on our radar that we were going to have to buy a new car sometime in the next few years. We didn't anticipate it happening as soon as it happened. I think that was a good exercise for us both of experiencing the almost immediate financial stress of okay, we don't have a choice here. Can, we can't delay this. We can't put this off. We have to. So then thinking about, you know, do we do something that is maybe not as, not as nice and is not going to last as long and as a stopgap, but also is less, less expensive, or do we buy a 10 year, hopefully what turns out to be an 8 to 10 year car, in which case that means, you know, emptying out a lot of accounts that we hadn't anticipated emptying out at this point in time. That'what we did actually, you know, that's what we ended up choosing to do. But I think that we had a lot of healthy discussion along the way of mhm, the merits of each of those approaches. And then, and the big thing is not whatever decision you ended up making, it's being on the same page exactly when you land. But I will say this, I think had I, uh, not realized, you know, if I had not started to get involved a few years back and really stepped into where I should have been stepping into all along, I think that could have been much more challenging because I probably would have come in like a wrecking ball saying, well, this is just what we need to do. There's the money, let's do it. What's the, you know, I think what made that uh, something that brought us closer together even though it was a stressful occurrence, rather than something that was difficult, was that we were already on the same page with money. We already talked about these things all the time. And so I think it allowed us to both trust and know that the other person has the same end goal in mind. And so we can discuss the merits of different approaches without. I think it would have been like her being. Her thinking, well, yeah, of course. What are you doing in here? This is my, you know, you've never been involved before. Now all of a sudden you want to get involved because there's a big purchase to make. And I think that would have been a lot of trouble. And I think that goes back to that. Finances are really a relational thing if you can get on the same page about them. Now, one point you guys saw, uh, when you first got married, you were a dual income, no kids, dens. Uh, now when you, uh, started to have kids, uh, then the discussion, you had to have the discussion of what Emily, what you would do with work, uh, if you decided to stay home with the kids, then you were going from to a single income with kids, which is a double whammy. Uh-huh. Uh, and how did you make that decision then? Uh, also, uh, as you have become, uh, more of the homemaker, home manager, uh, has that been an adjustment? And then, Karen, for you, I want you to be thinking about what it's like to be. You've been the manager of the household, but not the main breadwinner. And is that frustrating? Is that, uh, is that a positive thing, a negative thing? How is that? Because I know there's, in our society sometimes there's a lot of pressure on women to do both. Or then you're not mean. You know, I call it a house manager. Like there's so much that has to be done in order to run a household. Um, so when you were dueual income, no kids, and then went to, ah, maybe at least part time. So I worked for the first 14 months of Hollis'life and I worked part time. Oh, this is 10 now. So she was our first kid. Right. So, uh, when I was working part time, I really did feel like I wasn't. I was not doing either thing very well. U, um, when I was traveling or on the road, I felt frustrated that I couldn't be home. And then I felt like I was constantly doing emails and stuff like that while I was, um, taking care of a baby. And so for us, uh, we just decided we both grew up with stay at home moms. So that was again the kind of family of origin modeling that we saw. And I think I always thought that I would end up staying home. Um, but it just ended up. That got to a point where in my job I felt like it was a good place to leave. And then, um, I settled in there at home. And then we ended up having four kids, five and under. So the idea of me working. Pair of twins. Yes. So it had, um, a daughter. She's Hollis. Ah. She's eight. No, she's 10 now. Holis is 10, Elliot is eight. And then the twins are five now. So it's been quite a few min years of just managing all those little peoplee. Ah. And from my perspective in that time period, you know, I wanted. I think the message I consistently tried to give to Emily was if you want to work, we will find a way to make it work. If, if you want to stay home, then we'll find a way to make. I wanted to give her a little bit of freedom and leeway to, uh. I hate feeling stuck. Uh, but I think we were both on the same page of. You know, you said something earlier about how every yes to something is a no to something else. And I think that was true in that situation too, where we just, you know, a yes to Emily working was a yes to greater financial resources. When she stopped working, our take home income dropped by about 2/3, I would guess. So it was sign. I mean, she was, you know, she's. She's better than I. She's make more money than I was and so. Well. And you decided to go into ministry, where originally we had mentioned that you majored in math and you were heading toward something different. Probably be, uh, most likely more lucrative. Right? Yeah, but I think, um, you know, we were both on the same page that we were willing to trade the. We looked at the numbers. It was tight. That was probably the most challenging time financially in our marriage, uh, in terms of the actual dollars and cents and that sort of thing. But I would also add there, just as a caveat, we have incredibly generous parents who have put us in a great. They did so many things to put us in a position to succeed. But it was tight at that point. But we just felt like it was worth being tight because, you know, we wanted. She wanted to be home with our kids as they grew up and got to school age. Right. I felt like it was worth it. O. Ah, to follow up on that, did you have any, um, self image issues? I think in this culture, somebody who's been trained in a certain job, a certain career, and then you choose to stay home, which I applaud and of course support. But did you ever find, um, you were faced with somebody and you wanted to say, yes, I'm a stay at home mom, but I was a nurse and I used to sell medical supplies, you know. Right, right. Yeah. No, it's very easy to have that just a stay at home mom roll off your tongue. And if you actually know what goes into staying at home, it's like a lot. But, um, you do maybe just, um, unwittingly tie your identity to what you do. And if I don't have a career, if I have cut off my career by staying home, then you do have a bit of an identity crisis where you're trying to think like, where does my value come from? And ultimately we know that it's. It should be and it is always from God, but so easily we slip into that, you know, just stayed at home. And I do think I struggle with that now and then I get. I call it itchy. I get itchy, like, should I be doing something else? But very often it's because I'm seeking out my worth and value from somebody other than Jesus. So I do struggle with that. Karen, let me ask you this, because you went back to work after our kids were grown, right? Well, when they went to school, yeah, I went back to. So you started working. Now, did that. Did you feel like, better, uh, about the money or the. A great. I don't know the value of. Actually the significance of. Yeah, yeah. But the work that you were doing. I think I would have to say both. Yeah, I remember going back to school. Um. Well, I went back to school too, but I, um, went to work when Becca went to school. And I remember being so happy when I could tell something somebody would say back in the day on your checks, they would say, what's your work number? And I would be able to tell them my work number, which is so silly. But that to me was significante felt like significance. And also, I think again, in this culture, when you're paid for something, you feel like, um, you get a better response. You know, it feels better personally to have payment. So when I was working as a mom at home, sometimes it felt like, hmm, what is my real value? And then I would feel guilty to your question earlier because I wasn't contributing financially toward the support of our family and of our home. Yeah, for both of you. Is there any way for, like, a couple out there to try to mitigate that feeling? Because, uh, you know, for me it was an invaluable uh, part our. Of the whole economy of our world that you took care of all that. It was like. And so I've always tried to tell you that this is our money, but it. Is there any way to communicate that in a way? Well, I think Jimmy has expressed so well, um, the team concept and as you got on the same page with finances, I think it's the same thing with home and um, knowing that, okay, we're together and this is my role and for these years I'm home and I'm contributing to the health of our family. And that might not always be that way, but that's the way it is right now. And so I think it's important to talk about it and to talk about how sometimes we feel like, yeah, the house is a mess today because I have been caring for children. Uh, you would never say this and I don't think you would, but I think there are times where you come home and you go, what in the world did you do all that m today? And Jimmy will say, is there dinner? What did happen here today? I like. Well, there's a lot ofu. A lot of fun. It's usually when there's blood on the floor. I don't. But I think it's being on the same team. Mhm. And expressing what, what our positions are on that team. And sometimes it's messy and sometimes you don't get. I think for it that's important. I feel like that's important because you know, there might be people listening who have a different setup where they are. They have both parents working and I think that's. There's. That's a perfectly honorable and valid way to approach there challenges. Witheah too same. But I think the biggest thing with finances for me is that it can be either a dividing force for your marriage or uh, an extremely uniting force because it's just so. It's interesting. I was thinking about this just a few weeks back that I feel like finances is one of the areas where the church as a whole Christians tend to be underdeveloped because we don't talk about it. People are shy about all kinds of conversations about their. You know, how many people have. You do actually know the intimate details of your personal finances? Probably not very. Maybe just the two of you. For us, that's probably true. It's just the two of us. And I think on one hand, you know, you can see that maybe there are merits to that. On the other hand that allows. That means that the only two people who can speak into our finances with any semblance of clarity are Emily and I. And I think, um, I would just say it can be such a uniting thing or such a dividing thing, depending on how you approach it. Okay, this all been great. Let me, uh, close it out with this. Like, if you were talking to a couple and you were. I think the best connection that we made early on was that money is, uh, reflection of values. So how would you, uh, counsel couples to get on the same page, value wise and money wise? Um, and what. What would that look like? What would the initial conversation look like? I think the first thing I would tell them is to find a way for both. Both individuals to have full visibility and full understanding of every aspect of their finances. Think that's the first thing. Because if you don't even know what you're spending money on or what you as a couple are spending money on and in what amount and at what frequency, there's no way you can have a conversation about what you value because you don't know any of the information that would reveal those values. So I think that was really informative for us when we started, you know, using an app and pulling all the transaction data and then trying to categorize things. And, uh, it reveals patterns to you that ultimately reveal your values, that ultimately open up opportunity for conversation about those values. But without the information, you can't do that. Yeah. And it's super important. I mean, I was thinking just with. Even with little things, like if we looked at our speinning and I would say, why does it cost so much to do your hair? ###H Now we're getting really start over. But that would be. But that's a good. Like, I can say that because I know how much it costs to do this hair. Right. But for you to go, no, this is important to me, and this is why to have a serious conversation about what it means to you and then go, oh, okay, I get it. That's intimacy. Wouldn't you be sort of bubbling under the surface that why does it cost so much? And so you just have to have that conversation. And then I think if there is a mismatch on values or on what spending looks like, then, you know, first, abundant grace. And second, maybe, um, humility on the person that is doing the spending and be like, maybe this isn't worth it if it means that much to you. Being willing toy, you know, set some things aside. But I also think, like, it flips the convers. The interaction you just described with, uh, the hair it flips. What if you don't talk about it? You probably sit there as I bubling surface. It takes. It flips something from a negative to a positive because it's not just from negative to neutral. It's negative to. Now I understand you. You feel seen and heard. We are closer together as a couple. It's simply because we looked at the budget together and I said, why does it cost? And that's the biggest thing. That's what I want to leave people with, is the idea that money, uh, and finances don't, uh, have to be a mindful. It's an opportunity. Exactly. For intimacy and to grow closer, um, as much as anything in our lives, because you have to talk about the values and everything. So. All right. Thanks so much for, uh, being our guest today. It's been great. Thank you. A good talk on finances. Thanks. Karen, your hair looks great. Thanks for joining us for this episode of After the Vows. If this hit close to home and you want to know what your next step could be, your next step could be just a conversation. Uh, we always think that it's good for you to connect with somebody who might have a little more experience, a little more insight. Uh, so we've set up marriage coaches, and there's no curriculum or anything, but. And there's no long term commitment. It could be just one meeting. Could be a couple of meetings. Uh, but you can sign up for that. Uh, that would be great. Another possibilities if you want to grow spiritually or through, uh, your marriage. There are other episodes of this podcast or other podcasts that you can access through our YouTube channel or our church app. But, uh, you're welcome to access all of those. Uh, but we're so glad you joined us for this episode.