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How many times have you tried to understand ADHD...and were left feeling more misunderstood? We get it and we're here to help you build a shiny new relationship with ADHD. We are two therapists (David Kessler & Isabelle Richards) who not only work with people with ADHD, but we also have ADHD ourselves and have been where you are. Every other week on Something Shiny, you'll hear (real) vulnerable conversations, truth bombs from the world of psychology, and have WHOA moments that leave you feeling seen, understood, and...dare we say...knowing you are something shiny, just as you are.
Hello, I'm Isabelle. She her
hers.
And I'm David.
He him his. And we're two therapists with
ADHD who sit down to have some chats about
ADHD. We can't promise we'll stay on
topic or be professional or even
remotely mature, but we can promise that you'll end
up looking at you or your loved one's beautiful
neurodivergent brain in a shiny new way.
This is not a therapy B session. This is
something shiny.
I love it.
Do you like it?
That's amazing. And can this just be the
intro? You saying that and be freaking out about how amazing it is?
Yeah, that
could be our first intro.
So without further ado, welcome to Something
Shiny.
I'm David.
In this episode, we are
delighted, thrilled and honored to be
joined by Eye to Eye co founders
David Flink and Marcus Sutra.
What is eye to eye. What are we talking
about? Goodness. Listen to
this incredible episode and
keep coming back because we're going to keep
this conversation going and keep
expanding our deep dive into
the world of neurodivergent culture.
I think that this is where I'll just maybe try to do an
introduction and start with a little bit of justice
here.
so David Flink, Marcus
Sutra are two really
significant people in my story and in my life
in terms of understanding the world of,
learning diversity, learning disability,
neurodivergence. However, we want to talk about this.
David Flink started, this organization
called Project Eye to Eye that turned into Eye to Eye National,
which is now something even like, what is it's, just Eye to Eye now?
Or either way, I don't want to butcher it.
This organization has grown leaps
and mean. You've been
nominated by CNN as Person of
the Year, right? Like, you've had these incredible, like,
here's a hero moment kind of thing. But you've
really, I think, created a network of community
around neurodivergence spanning almost every state
in this country, which is pretty incredible. And
if I'm just going to do it, Marcus, I'm going to say
you were so much around the connections and
relationships of this organization. You have been,
if I'm going to say, like, the personification of boots on the
ground, trying to create this change, working
with school systems, people on
so many different states, different levels of
socioeconomic class. And I think that you have been
like a champion for so many people in this industry. I think you
both have so much to talk about in terms of
neurodiversity know, ADHD
in. And I guess what I would say
then is Isabel and I recently had the
opportunity to go to the Oi, which is your organizing
institute. And Isabelle, I want to maybe
I'll put you on the spot with this because I think
for someone that is neurodivergent that has never been to an
Oi, doesn't know what an Oi is, it's like m me talking about a Snarf
Blat. Like it's a word but no one really knows what it means
except for
Marcus. David, like, what made
you all think about creating an Oi? What's
it for? Why does it work? Give me the
guts.
great. Marcus, do you want to start to explain the Oi?
And then we can kind of look to the future of what it's really about?
I think we have to ground people who are listening on what this
thing is that we're talking about. It's
really a launching pad for the whole school year ahead, but really for the
next 25 years. So maybe that's a good way to begin.
Yeah, sure.
So, the event is official. Full name?
is the Young Leaders Organizing Institute,
but everybody calls it Oi. and the very
first one, was held back at Jersey City University
in 2005 and has happened every single
summer, ah, except for two years, where we weren't able to host
in person during the pandemic, but we hosted it virtually and
had hundreds of students participating in that event as
well. And it's young people from all over the
country, who come together to basically
build community around their own
neurodivergence, their own lived experience of being
someone, who has a learning difference, learning
disability, and, learning how. To build that community,
learning to be a leader, learning to tell their story
and then going out and spreading that work and
leading that work around the country. Eye to Eye is a
youth led movement, and this event kind of kicks
off and helps facilitate the beginning of our work
throughout the year. so you really have young people coming together
in all different ways. Some who are already activists
in the LD space or in the Nd space and have
done speaking and have done advocacy and community
organizing locally. And some are brand new to it. And their school
has just said, you're a leader and you should go to this conference
and learn how to work with Eye to Eye. and they come together from all
over the country and learn, basically how to
build community, for their neurodivergent school
community and everybody, in the surrounding
towns.
It's something like it's one of those things that fits neatly in a
sentence, but it's so much bigger.
I know. Sorry, David. Right now I'm like, I'm sorry, I just
can't stop smiling because I'm like I mean, even
just the idea of a youth led movement you're not
kidding, okay? I just want listeners to really
take that in because I needed to take that in. Does that
make know, you toss these words around like, oh, it's a grassroots
movement. Oh, youth led movement. Oh, we're asking people to
tell their stories and spit. Oh, yeah, of course I support
this. No, the impact of being in
a room of people who have come
together to talk, think,
share, be vulnerable, the
whole is greater than the sum of its parts. And the parts
themselves are just like these brilliant beams of light. Okay, so I'm
just saying I'm just adding a little color
commentary. This is incredible. So, anyway,
please, I didn't mean to interrupt.
I think the one thing that I wanted to jump on there, and you're not interrupting at all,
is that there are Eye to Eye
chapters. In how many states now? A lot.
yeah, over 20 states.
Okay. Over 20 states. And so
you're having one or two people from
every program come to this
centralized location to build this community and talk about
culture and making a
difference in the
and go, yeah, yeah.
So two students from each of these schools so,
come to the Organizing Institute. This year was held at University
of Denver, in Colorado. And, they
learned to yes, to tell their story. They have an incredible time
coming together as a community and sharing,
but also they learn real, tangible skills on how to be leaders and
how to implement a program. And I think that's something that's really
special about Eye to Eye is it's not just a conference.
The conference is the beginning of the work. And
every single one of those students who comes from their community really
represents another ten or 20 students back
that they are going to help guide through the program throughout the
year. so these are the leaders who are running
these programs on the ground. And we are a youth led movement and
student led movement. And this event has allowed us to give students
the skills and really just the empowerment
so, that they feel seen, heard, and valued and connected in community so that
they can then make that so for others. I often
say we teach students to put their mask on first, so
then they can go help put somebody else's mask on.
And we're talking in that moment specifically about, like, an oxygen
mask, as opposed to the masking and hiding who you are, part of
the mask. We're taking those masks off,
putting the oxygen masks on. so then
looking at you here, Flink, just kind of shifting.
One of the things that I get kind of curious about in life is it's hard
to dream about things you've never seen before. It's actually
almost impossible. which is why parents be very
careful about what your kids watch at a very young age. They will have
dreams. But realistically speaking, what
led you to dreaming about making something like Eye to
Eye, and how did you go about that?
Well, I have to say, and I don't really know how to co dream
in reality. But I can tell you that Eye to
Eye was absolutely, something that
was created through the spirit of,
whatever a version of co dreaming
might be. And I would even argue while this year
was celebrating our 25 years since
inception, and that's not really hard to do the math. It's
September right now. I don't know when folks might actually be listening to this, but
I stepped onto a college campus 25 years
ago. But I would say the codereaming really
began when I met Marcus Sutra, because
the original version and you mentioned this, David, in
the introduction was a pretty small dream.
I just sort of thought no one had told me
at any point throughout my entire
education with
authenticity that there was something
about my learning experience that was powerful. And
right now, I will say I hit the
family lottery. I hit the teacher
lottery. I had a lot of things going
for me, so I did have people who were cheering me on. I know
not everybody has that. So the early days, I really
just wanted to help one kid know that they weren't alone. And
as somebody who's neurodiverse myself, to be able to share that with
authenticity to a young person, that felt like
enough. And it wasn't until, thank goodness,
I met Marcus, where I would argue the co dreaming
is what allowed this thing to be. Now, as you
generously described an organization that's
changing the know, I think we came together, we had
different life experiences, and we started to
co dream. And we realized what would it look like if we brought
people from different backgrounds, different states,
different socioeconomic, orientations,
gender, race. I mean, what I love and what you all saw
this national community just came from
is what I really believe we need in America,
which isn't just to tell young people that they have
power, but to do so across our differences.
We hear a lot in this country about how
divided we are. And what I feel and what I've seen and why
this is so important to be a youth driven movement is young
people who come to this conference from all
backgrounds and they find a way to love each
other through their experience of learning
differently. And for me, when I think about what's the
next 25 years of our organization, it's about
helping these young people find their power and what's right with them,
helping the adults around them who do love them, but
who don't always know how to love them.
And we have figured out ways to help
educate educators so that they can more
actively and effectively say yes to when young
people ask for what they need. and we've also engaged
our allies. Now I think we've come to realize it's
not just the one in five who are neurodivergent. It's the four in
five who are in this community with us, who also
are oriented towards love, but need to understand
how to kind of cross communicate, which is why we're so excited to be on this
podcast. By the way, because you all are doing that as well, helping
everybody who's listening figure out a way to just understand this
neurodivergent journey.
I'm just going to soak all of that up
because I think, Marcus, I didn't
mean to even minimize your role in how much you've been
a part of putting eye to eye together and making it as what it
is.
Part, and I'll shift here to you ispell
a little bit the part that I often think about is
the neurodivergent, the learning, just like, different.
However we want to talk about our community, it's a real
community that has significant parts of
culture that get buried. We
don't see our cultural parts because we're trying to hide them
know.
Isabelle, what was it like for you
to attend this organizing institute?
What was it because here you are.
I don't think I'm spoiler alert. You're a grown up, right?
You're pretty successful.
and what is it like now for you as a grown up
to go to this Oi experience?
I mean, goodness, our listeners are probably going to get a big heap
of my big feels about it.
it's interesting because I think as I'm listening
to you, David, and you, Marcus, sort of
describe where
sorry, it's just like really sinking in for me that this is
25 years in the making. Because I think sometimes when you
experience something, you're like, of course this needs to exist. And
now it exists. But I can't imagine all the years
of blood, sweat, tears,
organizing, connecting, building
momentum, fundraising. Like, pick a thing, right, that you needed to
do to give it legs, give it a place to
go. The thing that struck me first off,
as soon as I walked in, and this is seemingly
minor detail. This is major detail because David, when
you're saying we spend so much time not even knowing
we have our own culture, sort of,
I'm going to be proud. I'm 39 years old.
Woohoo. That means I survived 39 years. I'm proud of
it. Imagine that. My whole life.
And I've been to many a conference too many, perhaps,
okay? And I've got my conference mode. I've
got my business my
business casual sweater I put on because it's always
too cold. I've got my pumps or my
sneakers because goodness knows I'm going to be walking for
I got my mode. I walk into this building
and first off, I am taken aback because, okay, picture this,
everyone. There are big signs everywhere.
And the signs indicate where you
are and also where you need to go.
Hands up if you've ever been to a conference where you're
just in like some nameless, faceless hotel
convention center, and it's just these teeny tiny rooms and
they're all named like the Oak Room. And you're like,
where'd to go to the Oak Room? And they're like, oh, second floor, left
of the lobby. And I'm like, that means nothing to me. I've forgotten
already. so I've never been to any event at a
conference on time, even though I arrive like,
half an hour early. I'm always literally
drenched in, like you know, when you get fear
sweat and it's got like, I'm a kind
of stinky person, and it's got a smell to it. And
then I'm like, great, I'm going to be stinkier.
And now I'm meeting new people and I have to sit close
to them. okay, that's the other thing. And then you get in, and you have to sit right
next to people on top of people all facing forward,
watching someone in front. Okay? So first of all, walk in. There's
signs. I know where I'm going. I don't get lost at all. And
there's a sign about every 5ft and that
actually has arrows and things that I'm like, oh, yes, now I
understand. I will go here. I get there ahead of time.
First off, as I get there, I pass a wonderful
array of snack foods. And they're not those kind
of old apples that you're always like, yikes. No one wants to
eat those apples, but they're going to. They're like
crunchy and sound, and they all have
those wrappers that make lots of noise. And I'm
like, those are the snacks I would like. But I normally avoid, at
a conference. And then I get in and there's like, these beautiful
the tables are spread out. The chairs kind of have little wheels.
You can move. You don't have to be on top of each other.
Some people are sitting there making friendship braces. Some people are sitting there
doodling. Some people are sitting there, like, laughing. And it
just feels so welcome and warm and friendly. And then
someone starts talking, and they have things to
say I actually want to listen to.
All right, that's my rant. But this is what it feels like.
Okay, so folks are listening. They
understand the truth of where we came from, because where you ended was
really all we ever had at the beginning. So the last
thing you said was people were saying
things that you actually wanted to hear, which, if
we've all been to conferences, we know. Even if we
had the sign and even if we didn't have the fear sweat,
and even if the seats didn't have the wheels and we didn't have the
fidgets, when you finally sit down and the person starts opening their
mouth, immediately my mind
goes,
I don't know what they're saying because it's not interesting to me at all.
now.
So I just want to go back and David Kessler, I'm going to put you on the
spot because I want people to know where we came from. So,
David Kessler, you came to one of our earliest conferences. We're so
lucky. You've been a part of our community for so long. You also
have co dreamed with us. And we did
not have signs. We did not have snacks. In fact,
I very much remember Marcus and I were on
campus. None of the students had arrived, we did not
know where they were. And luckily, through nothing sheer
of love and trust, I called David Kessler
and you were at the airport. Do you remember
this? You were at the airport and you were about to get on the bus. I said, don't
get on the bus. And I gave you a list of vague descriptions of
people who were all ADHD and just wandering.
I was like, Go find them
from here.
I love this.
But this is where we began holding the one
thing that was true, which is at the end, we had things that people were
going to say that was meaningful. But what did you do, David? Because this is what is the
embodiment of our community. You didn't shame me, for one. You
said, I'll get off the bus. And then what happened?
I'm on it. I'm excited. Let's do this. And I
think one of the last things I remember you saying is,
they should be wearing look for people that look lost or
have eye to eye here. And I was like, got it.
I was running through the airport,
and whenever I'd see anyone with an eye to eye
thing, I'd be like, you eye to eye?
You're here?
And they're like, yes. I'd be like, Come with me. We have to find the others.
And
it was like, collect them all. Like Pokemon adventure,
but didn't know it. It was like, all of a sudden, we had,
like, 15 people. We're like a
crew working through, screaming like, who's here for the
people don't know what's going on. People do know what's going on. It was
amazing. And I think we filled one
bus and sent it back. And there was, like, another bus we had to set.
And we kept finding it was so much
fun. I remember I had so much fun.
Sorry doing that. it was like, I
can help. I can help people. And all they want
me to do is be nice to people.
That was like sorry. So much fun.
I put David on the spot to share that story because I really
appreciate what you said, Isabel. And
also, when I think about the next 25 years, we're going to
have all the snacks. We're going to have all the fidgets. We're going to make sure the environment is
supportive of your needs and everyone's needs. We figured that stuff
out that's really been important to us. And so, I really appreciate those
reflections. But we haven't lost what David
Kessler did, and we haven't lost what you experienced at the very
end of your story, which is I feel like
organizations can lose themselves. We are an
education equity organization. We are youth
driven, as you said at the very beginning. And now
our jobs all people. I'm a little older than the
39 years I got you by four, but
we're in the same bucket. We are here to set
up the next generation of young people to ask
for what they need and to change the school systems forever.
And it's been a privilege to go from the young person who
was doing that and David, from you doing
that to now we get to talk about how we're really
supporting this next generation. So when we go to visit
schools and it's such a diverse group of schools that we
work in, I feel so excited
because the kids aren't looking where to go. They're
just waiting to say what they.
Need to say.
What they need to say. There's this moment where I want to
be a little cynical. coming from a world of therapy and
psychology, one of the things that happens in therapy
that isn't always so helpful is just like, going into the
gory details all the time, right. Trauma,
bonding, it's not so good. And so I'm very
used to people saying, you got to share your story. And then I
almost want to eye roll. Okay, I really want to share
my story. And then this is
a long time ago, by the way, but then when I
met you, Flink and Marcus, one of the things you were talking about at
the Oi was, you need to know your story.
Talk about your story, talk about how you got here. And I
remember thinking, when you were saying that, Marcus, like, I'm a
fraud. The last thing I want to
do is tell anyone how I got here.
And I don't think that's going to be really healing for
anyone. And then,
Marcus, I think you let it off by talking about,
your know,
and I'm not here to share your like and then another person shared
their story. And what I started noticing when I was hearing everyone's
stories,
how much I wasn't alone, how much of
these things that I felt like I needed to hide, everyone
else was talking about. And it was like this first
time where, I became aware of a culture. I didn't even know it was
culture back then. I just became aware of, like,
I'm not deficient in this group. I'm
not different in this group.
And I'm wondering, Marcus, what was it
for you where you realized was
there a moment where you realized, we need to hear
these kids talk about their stories? Was there
a story in particular that you heard? How did
you really come to understand
this need, and where did you see it
work?
Yeah, I think really, the phrase that I've often used,
I think that eye to eye does in the beginning of the
process, we take people through going from
not talking to anyone about this to being nd and proud,
to be proud of their neurodiversity, the badge that they
wear. We've made the invisible
visible. And there is this hidden culture.
There is this hidden connection. There is this hidden bond that
we have from everything. From how we experience
the trauma of going through school and being labeled
different and medication and all those things that young kids are going through
as they're developing to something as simple as I know
a Dyslexic person by the fact that they point at the menu
when they go out to dinner, that they point at the food item
they want, as opposed to say it because they're afraid they're going to read it out
loud. Wrong. I have been at dinner with people and had to
watch them do that and go, you dyslexic. And they'll
go, Why do you ask me that?
Because you didn't want to pronounce the Italian dish
wrong. And you pointed to, like, I
think there's a hidden aspect to this. And
I think that there was a point early
on that I was wondering I saw this working for young
adults. I saw this working for me. I saw Dave tell his
story. I saw, okay, there's value in his story. I connected
with it. We had never even met each other. Like, the first time
Dave and I talked on the phone, he just
started telling me his story. And I was like, this guy is
from Atlanta. He goes to Brown. I grew up in Massachusetts. I'm at keen
state. We don't know each other, and, everything he's saying,
like, nine out of ten, I'm connecting with.
But I was working with a young student, in Eye to
Eye, before I went full time
in Idaho, before we had enough money to pay for both of us to have a
job. And I was running an eye to
eye chapter after school and working
in another school that I wasn't teaching in, and
working with a group of mentors and running the art room there.
That's, what we call the art room because we do art projects with students to
build social emotional skills. And the project
we were doing at the time was called the
Invention Project. And the idea was to think
of something that, Einstein was
dyslexic, and he was an inventor. So that's kind of where the origin of
this idea came from. And there's a lot of dyslexic
inventors and innovators invent something that would deal with
the biggest problem you have in school.
Like, think about what was the biggest thing that's tripping you
up, that makes you hate school the most. So some kids
were picking academic things, like spell pens that
spelled for them, and kind of more like specific things that
were tied to that. But this other kid, this kid said
to us, he said, I hate school because I get
bullied for having to use extended time in school,
in class, like having to take a test, he has to leave the room,
all of that. And he was shamed by
it. So he created this thing called the bully. Be
gone. And it was this invention
that would shield bullies, like, whatever they were
saying it would bounce off of them. He called it the Death Star for
bullies, like, nothing could get through.
And the way he was able to use art
and in a space around other young people and to
communicate the thing that he was struggling with at most,
and then to have other near peer role
models give him advice on how to navigate that
problem. I was like, this is something
truly powerful, and this is something that is powerful
for a 19 year old, a 25 year old, a ten
year old, twelve, year old. And it
didn't matter where we were from or what experiences we
had. That was that emotional experience and that
ability to support each other and build that
community that actually tangibly made a difference in people's
lives. That moment with that kid
TJ, that was when I was in.
So many feelings. So many
feelings. Oh, my gosh. Well,
okay. my brain is going 80 places.
Something that I'm thinking about as you're talking.
One, I'm so curious, because you
two, David and Mark, is you both have
really cool not to say that eye
to eyes in a job, but you also have a lot of expertise
and cool stuff you have added into the
mix, right? Like, Marcus, you were just describing running this art
room, and as an educator right.
I want to know a little more and I want to know a little more how you got each
other's numbers, because I'm like, that's so cool.
And also, who put the two together?
What's the me cute here? and then the
other question I have around or the other thought I had as
you were sharing that story because I don't want to go
everywhere, was
what I think about is, like, trauma mastery, right? Which is like
that impulse or that sense we have when we have
survived something, even when we don't label it a
trauma or recognize it as such. Which, for the record,
I just want to speak to bullying
as a massive trauma, okay?
It has massive long term impacts on people,
especially if it goes unrecognized and unacknowledged
and there is no recourse. Right? So
this is a real thing that happens that devalues
you. It dehumanizes you, it leaves you feeling less than,
and it changes a lot of how you then
relate to others in the world, including yourself. So imagine it's this
big deal thing, okay? And you're
able to put art
or movement or just expression to it
because it goes beyond words, right? Like, you could talk about it all
day, but the fact that you can express it and
have someone who kind of resonates with that
what I think about is what it means for those
near peer mentors. Like the older kid. I
say kid. Young adult, really, right?
Youth. The youth. The older youth.
So old. It's fine. what it
means for them to
I know, for myself. And it's not. Just because I'm a
parent. This is how I feel for all my clients.
I want to spare you the suffering
that I went through, ultimately.
Right. I think you go into these helping fields,
you go into this work because you're like, I just want the world
to not have that. I want to make it a little better than
it was before I got here, kind of. So
I'm struck by the amount of healing.
And when I say trauma mastery, what happens
when you help change the outcome of
another person's story? It's not your job to it's not your role
to but to recognize that you matter
and to recognize that you can kind of transmute
that wound into something that
helps someone else feel less alone.
When you say you felt it in that room, I don't
know, I'm just kind of waxing on. But it's like, I
know that's, like, the healing. You felt the
healing. I've talked a lot. Does that make any
sense?
Yeah.
No, I think that was also when I saw it, happening
on the other end with our young adults. People
often ask, I'm always surprised young people keep showing up.
There's a little piece of me that's always just so happy that they keep
showing up. And I think one of the big fundamental differences
between us and other organizations maybe have brought
people together to solve the same kinds of issues
or work through the same kinds of issues, is that the first thing
we say is, your story matters and it can change the life
of someone else. And,
every time we starting Night Eye in those first few schools, they
would say, we tried a support group for, those
students and nobody showed up. There was free pizza, the whole thing, and
nobody came. And I was like, I think because you labeled it a
support group and the only draw was
free pizza, which they can get in the dining comments.
So it was like, how do we bring people together and
say, your story matters and you have something to do
that you can make a difference? And it was that
tangible action that they could take that made the
difference and made the shift that they could use their story
to change another person's life. And then there was a sense of
responsibility and ownership to that, that they had to
communicate that to somebody else, as well as they kept
fulfilling their cup as well.
Thank you so much for listening. If you ever have that thought where you
think, hey, I have nothing, stop. Remember,
you're something's shiny.
That's right, just as you are. If you
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