Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.
PJ (00:04.75)
Hello and welcome to Chasing Leviathan. I'm your host PJ Weary and I'm here today with Justin Briarley, freelance writer, speaker and broadcaster known for creating dialogues between Christians and non-Christians. hosted the radio show Unbelievable and the podcast Ask NT Right Anything. He currently co-hosts the Re-Enchanting podcast and we're here to talk today about his book, The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God, Why New Atheism Grew Old.
and secular thinkers are considering Christianity again. Mr. Briarley, wonderful to have you on today.
Justin Brierley (00:39.277)
Thank you very much, PJ. It's lovely to be with you.
PJ (00:42.606)
So, Justin, if I may, why this book?
Justin Brierley (00:50.519)
Well, this book really came out of nearly 20 years of hosting conversations between Christians and atheists. I started around 2005 when I was 25, bringing Christians and non-Christians into conversation on what was just a radio show at the time. Unbelievable. But that became a podcast, a video show and more besides. And I just had the privilege of hosting lots of really interesting conversations, quite often combative conversations.
between people on both sides of the aisle. And it was really at a time in the mid 2000s when new atheism was kind of becoming a big thing. So for those who aren't familiar with that term, it was just a very, an interesting cultural moment when there were a lot of quite well known, secular thinkers, scientists, philosophers who were kind of standing up for atheism, very much critical of religion, doing it in public. It was quite snarky, quite dismissive, quite rude.
in many ways towards people of faith. And they all had kind of best selling sort of atheist books, people like Richard Dawkins in his best selling book, The God Delusion. And, and so I really enjoyed kind of hosting some of these conversations in that time. And I learned a lot along the way I learned that actually, Christianity can stand on its own two feet intellectually.
But I also over the years noticed quite a change in the tone of the conversation. It went from this very kind of full on quite aggressive form of atheism to increasingly people coming on the show who may not have been Christians, but they weren't sort of new atheists see that they were quite embarrassed actually, by that movement in some ways. And I sort of watched from the sidelines as the movement itself sort of unraveled and splintered and finally kind of
evaporated almost overnight, because of all kinds of interesting aspects of what we now call the culture wars. And, and in its place in place of the new atheism, there was still obviously plenty of non Christians, but this time the the secular thinkers were starting to ask different questions, and come up with different answers to questions of faith. And so I noticed a number of these interesting new voices emerging with big audiences, people
Justin Brierley (03:04.213)
like for instance, Jordan Peterson, the Canadian psychologist, people like in my country, Tom Holland, a historian with a huge following, but kind of pointing people back to the Christian story rather than sort of making fun of it or saying it's irrelevant. And, and I started to kind of just engage more and more of these sort of secular thinkers who were far more open to the value of Christianity. And that's really where the book came from. Because, you know, I tell a story right at the beginning of the book.
about a conversation I had with one of these interesting sort of secular, but kind of Christian curious agnostics, Douglas Murray, who's quite well known cultural thinker, Associate Editor of the Spectator magazine here in the UK. And we were having a conversation on my show about kind how do we make sense of life in a sort of post Christian culture. And he quoted a well worn line from the Victorian poet Matthew Arnold in his poem Dover Beach, he talks about the melancholy
long withdrawing raw of the Sea of Faith. And, and that stood in as an image for the last 150 years or so of the way in which faith has kind of gone out on the tide, if you like, and be replaced by secularism and science and so on. But he said to me, he said this really interesting thing that I just hadn't thought of before. He said, the thing about the Sea of Faith, Justin, is that it could come back in again. After all, that's the point of tides, you know, it could come back back in.
PJ (04:22.088)
Hahaha
Justin Brierley (04:26.133)
And, and it just hadn't really occurred to me. Yeah, of course, that's what happens with the sea, goes out, sure, but it does come back in again, eventually. And, and he wondered aloud in that conversation, whether we might be starting to see a sort of turning of the tide, because he himself, Douglas Murray, you know, often referred to himself as a Christian atheist, someone who, while he doesn't believe in Christianity, nevertheless, recognizes the way in which he's been completely shaped by the Judeo-Christian story and heritage of the West. And, and he was noticing
same thing I was seeing a number of secular thinkers starting to take Christianity far more seriously, again, compared to the new atheists. And even seeing a surprising number of his peers actually becoming Christians to his own surprise. And I was also hearing interesting stories of unusual surprising conversions, adult conversions to Christian faith. So that was really where the book began. And hence, on the cover, the sort of the image of a sort of wave coming in.
And it's more than just a book now, a lot of people have picked up the podcast documentary series of the same name, The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God. And I guess the subtitle really just tries to encapsulate the thesis that new atheism has grown old, and that secular thinkers are considering Christianity again. And I think there's a kind of a new conversation about God happening in our culture right now. that's where it all came from.
PJ (05:49.966)
One great answer. So thank you. I believe we've shared Michael Ruse as a guest. So when you talk about kind of the bold and shocking statements, I had picked him up as a guest for more of a academic book and I did not realize that was his style. So I'm not gonna lie. It was an exciting interview. was very...
Justin Brierley (06:11.381)
Yeah, but Michael Ruse was always one of my favourite atheist contributors on the shows I hosted, yeah, he kind of he was a bit out there. But he, he was actually quite against the new atheism. He wrote very disparagingly, actually, of Richard Dawkins and the new atheists. And he was always very gregarious and fun and laughed a lot in our in our conversations. So I enjoyed it. I was very sad to hear of his his passing away quite recently, actually.
because he was definitely one of my my favorite atheist guests on my shows.
PJ (06:43.138)
Yeah, I definitely felt he had a very sincere desire for truth.
Justin Brierley (06:47.015)
Absolutely, yeah.
PJ (06:50.616)
So I wanted to ask you what, as we talk about this reconsideration by secular thinkers, what has been good about that and what have you seen can be problematic about that?
Justin Brierley (07:04.013)
So obviously, as a Christian, I welcome the fact that people are taking Christianity more seriously. I think what's really good is that people are beginning to recognize that we didn't kind of get to Western culture out of a void, you know, that this came from somewhere, that the good things we recognize about Western culture, its commitment to human rights, equality, freedom, progress, and so on. They don't, I think a lot more people are recognizing in this movement.
that those things don't come out of atheism or science or just pure reason, that actually they're tied to something very specific. And this is where people like the aforementioned historian, Tom Holland, not the Spider-Man actor, in case you're confused. these folks, you know, who are having an increasing influence on a lot of people, are just pointing out, even as secular historians, that actually we have a backstory, okay, and it ties us directly to this.
PJ (07:44.769)
Hahaha
Justin Brierley (08:00.227)
Christian movement, and that it was really that movement that shaped the way we think about ourselves and our culture. And that alone, I think, has been very useful. I think there's been a certain kind of hubris in the Western mindset that somehow, you know, as long as we're all scientifically minded, reasonable people, we'll all come up with these, this this society and these views. And that's just not a given, actually, you know, we're very unusual moment in the history of the world.
most societies in the past have not shared our ideals and many today still don't around the world. And I think, I think that's important because actually, as we're becoming a more kind of globalized culture, and I think as we're seeing quite a lot of threats, actually, to Western democracy around the world, I think it's important to remind ourselves where did this come from? And it didn't come from some kind of scientific humanism. So so so that there's that I think I'm very grateful for that. And obviously,
I personally want to see people, you know, as a Christian, I want to see people kind of engaging the Christian story and considering it seriously. Because I do believe, you know, that the Christian church, the history of Christianity, while it's, you know, very patchy, there's been lots of evil done in the name of God, that actually it has been one of the greatest forces for social good as well in the world. And I,
I can't think of really any other cultures that compare to the kind of culture that has been, you know, as I say, generated by, by Christian faith. So, so that's all, you know, the good side of this, I think. There are dangers, obviously, as well. And, and this is as a, the more I've explored, actually, especially through the podcast series over the past year or so, the more I've seen, actually, there's lots of different aspects of this movement. There's all kinds of, you know, mixed motives in the end, why people might want to
hold on to Christian faith or the values of Christianity. And, and I suppose part of my one of my concerns, for instance, would be, there is a certain element of this surprising rebirth, which is more about people wanting to kind of co-opt Christianity for a political purpose, let's say, I want to return to some golden age of, you know, where where everything was the way that I kind of have it in my mind as a sort of more traditional
Justin Brierley (10:24.699)
more conservative, whatever. Now, there's nothing wrong with tradition and conservatives and necessarily, but when you're trying to co opt Christianity for its effects, I think you've kind of put the cart before the horse. The reason why we enjoy the kind of values and traditions we do is because there were people who really believed this story and who went out and lived their faith in a world where they then went and changed it because of that. I think it's very hard to sort of just
hold onto the values without the story that underpins it. And I do see that happening in some respects. Increasingly, people are kind of wearing the badge of cultural Christian, know, even Richard Dawkins, the well-known atheist has sort of spoken of himself as a cultural Christian. But I don't think cultural Christianity is enough. I think that just becomes another sort of idolatrous, sub-Christian version of Christianity. And it won't actually get you what you hope it.
will get you it's it's the fruits of the Christian Revolution will continue to to wither on the vine if you don't have the roots, the story that really empowers it. So I think there can be some of those issues, you know, people kind of trying to use the Christian story for purely kind of political cultural motives.
PJ (11:44.59)
I love that image of roots on the one hand, that's where you get your nutrition from. So that's going to be like, it's going to lead to the withering of fruit. On the other hand, it's really necessary for storms. And I think that's another thing that you kind of pick up in the book. And even as you're, you're kind of hinting at, as you're talking here, that when you're a cultural Christian, when things get tough, it's very easy to drop things that we just kind of adopt for.
Justin Brierley (11:57.271)
Mmm.
PJ (12:14.702)
useful reasons rather than true reasons. Is that a fair way to kind of read what you're saying?
Justin Brierley (12:22.763)
Yes, no, I think I think that's absolutely right. I think if the roots aren't there, when you know, and obviously, Jesus himself tells a parable about someone sowing seed, some of it falls on rocky ground and gets pecked up immediately before it can take root, some of it does fall on shallow soil, and, you know, goes down a little bit. But as soon as the sun comes out, as soon as hard harsh conditions appear, it doesn't have the kind of root to withstand those forces. Likewise, the one that gets strangled in the briars, it's only the
the seed that falls on good ground where it can put down those roots, that it can flourish and bring, you know, the great harvest. And I think that's true in our culture. We live in a very shallow culture, actually. And it's very hard to get seed planted deeply in that sense, because people are almost a primed against it. And I think that's one of the problems is, is that people are kind of looking for solutions, but not
for ones that actually require a great deal of change themselves. They're looking to kind of prop up the life they already have, but hopefully without having to require too much effort on their part. I think that's the problem. If you don't have the roots, if you like, of the Christian story, you will abandon the values pretty quickly in the face of other concerns. And the problem is obviously that...
you have to have a kind of a really rooted kind of belief worldview, a kind of sense of what is the most important thing and what you would sacrifice your life for, for those values to actually kind of stand against all of the other things that inevitably come up and challenge them. So I think that's a really good point. I hadn't really thought of that, actually. I'm glad you mentioned it, because I've, I've often used the root and fruit analogy to talk about kind of you got to feed the fruit. But I think also, yeah, the rootedness is actually what makes it strong as well. Yeah.
PJ (14:14.648)
well good. As we talk about these kind of foundations, not to skip all the way to the end of the book, but we should definitely go back through the book, but it feels like a natural segue to ask about, on the one hand, kind of this metaphorical Christianity that seems to come up a lot versus a metaphysical Christianity, but at the end you talk about...
Justin Brierley (14:17.091)
Yeah.
Justin Brierley (14:35.542)
Hmm.
PJ (14:41.08)
want to make sure I get this. You did mention a little bit of a tongue twister in the book.
Justin Brierley (14:45.123)
you
PJ (14:48.034)
I can find it.
PJ (14:55.436)
the church needs to counter cancel culture. So I couldn't find the exact phrase here, creating communities that counter cancel culture. That's what it was.
Justin Brierley (15:03.415)
It's, I think the most, yeah, that, that's right. That's the tongue twister. We need to create a community that counters cancel culture and that community is the church. Yeah, I, this is kind of one of a few takeaways I kind of give towards the end of the book and, also cover these in the podcast series as well towards the end of season one. But I think, yeah, in many ways, a lot of people
have never entered church today. You know, we live in a very post Christian culture. A lot of people, especially younger generations have almost had no interaction with church whatsoever. And what what what sense they do have of it is it's just a fusty old institution for people who choose to do that, you know, with their leisure time rather than go golfing or something else. And, and the reality is actually that the church, as I mentioned earlier, in its global sense has been the most incredible force for
social change in the world. And at its local expression, it can be very life giving, it can also be very damaging and toxic, you know, and I'm not going to say that that it's always great, because it's an institution made up of human beings. And that's the problem you're going to it gets messy at times. But at the same time, I do I do really sense that it's, as we said, we live in a very shallow culture today, not just shallow in terms of people's thinking, but also in terms of relationships.
We live constantly mediated by screens. mean, obviously it's got its great uses, know, we're doing this, you know, online through screens. But at the same time, that the more that that has replaced genuine human community, I think the poorer we're becoming in all kinds of ways. And it seems to me that the church is fast becoming one of the few places where you still get regular human community in all its messiness for sure. But one where actually you can also find a sort of a
you know, again, at its best a community where you'll find acceptance and forgiveness and grace. And again, that's kind of becoming more and more in short supply in our culture today. Because one of the points I make in the book is that even though we live in a very post Christian culture, we're, still actually very religious, we're still quite intrinsically religious, inherently religious, but in all the wrong ways, unfortunately, sometimes. So we tend to often hold on to the sort of
Justin Brierley (17:30.177)
the superiority that sometimes the religious sense brings, you know, the kind of cancel culture, you know, there are many modern day types of heretics, you know, if you don't agree with my view on this, my politics on that, you're canceled and you're outside the fold. And, and I think it's actually a really stressful, kind of burdensome place for a lot of people to live, especially young people.
because in a funny way, they they are on often on the receiving end of this very sensorious, legalistic culture that may not think of itself as religious, but actually a lot of the the ways in which it conducts itself are kind of quite quasi religious. And so I think a lot of people are looking for a place of grace and forgiveness, where everyone just accepts we're all in the same boat, we're all sinful, we're all we've all messed up. And
And as I say, the church at its best can be that place where we, you know, we're all recognize our fallenness. But it's also a place where you gather around something that is more than just a political ideology, or common cause or interest, you, there's a kind of the extraordinary strength of the church is its diversity. But that even despite that diversity can gather in unity around something that's bigger than anybody, and that's a person Jesus Christ. And so for me,
Yeah, I think far from being kind of irrelevant in the modern world, the church is becoming more and more relevant when done well. And so for me, that's why I would say one of the big takeaways for me is that we do need to develop that, as you say, community that counters cancel culture.
PJ (19:11.166)
One of things I really appreciate about your book is the tone of optimism, because I definitely grew up hearing how the church is failing, the church is breaking apart, the church, all these other things. even as you were talking there, this idea that Christianity is on the rise, that religious belief is on the rise is a welcome message. it's also, I just always appreciate I have people on to talk about climate change and
when they talk about climate change, at least in the internet bubble, it's very doom and gloom. But to talk to people who are like, well, here are some things that we can do, right? And to have this consistent view of making the world better is a real encouragement. So first off, thank you for that. And as we're talking about grace and forgiveness in cancel culture, I think the flip side of that, even as we're talking, and this is the
Justin Brierley (19:43.6)
Mm-hmm.
Justin Brierley (19:54.723)
You're welcome.
PJ (20:06.88)
the connection I wanted to make with the metaphorical versus, shall we say, metaphysical kind of Christianity, is the flip side for countering cancel culture is repentance. And maybe I'm kind of springing this question on you, so feel free to handle this however you like. Can you talk a little bit about repentance and the role that that plays?
Justin Brierley (20:20.353)
Hmm.
PJ (20:36.726)
I I personally see a lot of replacement even among so-called Christians, and I'd love to talk about that later. I'm in central Florida, so cultural Christianity is a very different thing than in Britain. But I see the replacement of repentance with therapy, and I kind of see some lines drawn there between what you talk about with metaphorical and metaphysical Christianity and that need to counter cancel culture.
Justin Brierley (20:48.995)
Mm.
Justin Brierley (21:03.809)
Yeah, no, that's a great point. And I think the Greek for repentance is metanoia. And that kind of means a change of mind as well as turning around from something. And every kind of great transition in life, every great sort of step forward you take psychologically and you know,
in your in your life, I think involves that metanoia involves a kind of a change of mind. And and repentance is is one of those things. A repentance is essentially saying I am not my own master, I cannot ultimately control all the inputs and outputs of my life, I'm not in charge. Very often in, in a lot of my conversations over the years with atheists, actually, despite often a lot of, you know, important
objections that were being levelled against faith and Christianity. I often sensed at the bottom, in the case of a number of people, that what they most really didn't like about Christianity was that it required this kind of submission, this humility, a surrender of not being actually ultimately in charge of your world, or kind of even having a kind of the intellectual kind of abilities to essentially
PJ (22:10.889)
Hahaha
Justin Brierley (22:27.511)
master it in every way, there was this kind of a sense in which you if there is a God, you kind of that puts you everything else into perspective, including yourself. And that's kind of what repentance is, as well. For me, it's it's just, it's just an awareness of our limitation and kind of being willing to own up to that. And so, so for me, that's a really important part of this story. And I absolutely agree with what you said there about
we have replaced, I think repentance, the idea of original sin, of our fallenness, with a kind of therapeutic sort of approach to life, where no, no one's really wrong. No one's really bad. We're just, we've just been influenced in various ways. It's just society around us, you know, there's this kind of, you know, blank slate idea, isn't it? Was it? I can't remember which philosopher it was, Rousseau or someone, I think, who said, you know, we, we all come to life.
essentially, these blank slates, and it's just the culture around us that that messes us up, basically. But, but we're inherently good. It's just, you know, things pull us down. I think the Christian story, you know, contains, you know, a pretty different account of reality to that it says we're inherently bad. Okay, we've got this kind of fundamental flaw that's kind of spelled out in this story of creation and fall.
And that is constantly going to drag us down. And that's why we cannot save ourselves. That's why you can throw all the science, technology, psychology, therapy at it that you want, but you're, you're going to be kind of dressing the wound in the end, if you don't deal with the heart issue. And that's obviously the story of Christianity, that God comes in human flesh to deal with the issue of the human heart. and for me, yeah, that's
that requires a lot of humility on the part of people because we live in a culture where people want to be in control. And often the therapy and the, you know, the methods we use are still forms of staying in control. Christianity is learning to live out of control, actually to live in a world where you just accept that you cannot control everything. And very often you kind of you are the last person as well who is really aware of the motivations and desires of your own heart.
Justin Brierley (24:51.799)
And to surrender that to God is the first act, I think, of actually wisdom, in that sense, you know, the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. And, and it's, it's that kind of acceptance of who you are. And, and that you need, you cannot save yourself and you need something beyond yourself, that I think is the first path to a lot of stuff. So yeah, I love that. It's not something I deal with much at all, if I'm honest in the book, but it's, it's, I think it is a really important aspect of the whole thing.
PJ (25:20.566)
Yeah, that was definitely something more that that's why I was like, not trying to spring that on you. It was just something that your book sparked as I was reading, though you did. And this is something I think you deal with a good amount in the book. And you kind of mention it there. That we are.
Justin Brierley (25:28.258)
Hmm.
PJ (25:39.694)
through therapy, just talk, we're just misunderstood, we're just influenced. And you have a pretty, I believe like, I don't know if it's the whole chapter or half the chapter, but you talk quite a bit about determinism and you critique determinism. Can you speak a little bit, kind of explain your critique of determinism in the book?
Justin Brierley (25:43.907)
Mm.
Justin Brierley (25:51.619)
Hmm.
Justin Brierley (25:59.371)
Yeah, so for those who aren't familiar with the term, determinism is a sort of used used here in its kind of philosophical sense just means that every everything about you and the world and the universe as a whole is sort of basically predetermined that it's running according to a purely physical set of cause and effect that ultimately, no one has any control over it's just running according to a to what will happen. It's kind of an inexorable process over which
you don't have any control. this is becoming a very common sort of philosophical worldview among many atheist materialists I know, who essentially say, well, if the world is a purely mechanical thing, you know, ultimately, if it's all about atoms and electrons obeying the laws of physics, then actually, there's no such thing really in the end as free will. Because actually, all of the thoughts and feelings you have, and the actions you take because of them are essentially being
guided are being sort of, you know, are just the outworking of these physical forces. You didn't decide to have corn flakes over shreddies as your breakfast cereal in the morning. It's, it's kind of what the universe delivered to you through this physical process. And so the atoms in your brain ended up arranging themselves in such a way that you ended up eating the corn flakes instead of the shreddies. And, and from those kind of
PJ (27:25.654)
I'm sorry, I'm so sorry, this is not what I should fixate on, but I do have to ask, what are shreddies?
Justin Brierley (27:28.835)
Okay, yeah, sorry, that's a that's a UK thing, obviously. They're kind of like this this malted wheat cereal. That's kind of it's good for you because it's got shredded wheat. Yeah. Yeah.
PJ (27:40.686)
Shredded wheat.
I think, yeah, sorry, just never heard of, classic, you know, crossing Atlantic there. Sorry, please continue.
Justin Brierley (27:47.971)
It's so good. I should have used corn flakes versus Captain Crunch or something. No, it's fine. It's fine. But whether it's those small things, you know, kind of, you know, the biggest decisions we make, who we spend our life with, or anything, you know, according to this philosophy, it's all none of it is within your control. There's really no free will. And
PJ (27:56.239)
Apologies, please continue.
Justin Brierley (28:18.579)
I mean, a lot of the atheists I meet sort of almost where this is a kind of well, I've I've seen through, you know, the, the, I've seen the bigger picture, I, you know, I know something that most people go around not really realizing. But I don't, I think there's all kinds of problems for this. One of the most obvious that's often been pointed out is that if there is no free will, then there is no
sense in which we can blame anyone for anything or praise anyone for anything. There's no sense in which justice is applicable anymore. Because if someone goes and murders someone, well, that's just their biology, their chemistry, their the physical forces over which they had no control. So why should you punish them for something that they had no control over? Likewise, you know, if someone does some great active heroism, heroism, bravery, you know,
why award them with a Medal of Honor. It was again, it was just the physical forces of the universe, they don't deserve anything better than anyone else. So it has all these kinds of counterintuitive consequences to it, and raises all kinds of questions about whether it makes any sense to impose punishment or reward in any way in our culture. And it's very hard to think how you would even operate a culture if that's really what's going on. But I think the problem is actually much worse than that for this.
problem, because it actually undercuts the whole idea of reason, as well, in my view. And this is when a lot of these atheists stop that I think they think, well, we just have to live with the consequences of living in a world where there's no such thing really as, you know, justice, right and wrong, anything else in a world purely determined by atoms and physics. But what they read, but what they still often hold on to is but at least I've, at least I've worked this out, at least I'm a logical thinking rational person. And I've kind of, you know, I'm gonna
just accept the nihilistic implications of my worldview. But actually, you can't do that either. Because you're not logical or rational or reasonable, if you believe in determinism, because it completely undercuts the whole concept of reason as well. Because the only way you arrive at your belief in determinism itself is through a completely non rational process of atoms and electrons doing their physical thing. There's nothing true or false.
Justin Brierley (30:42.115)
about the movements of atoms in your brain. And in the end, if you were always bound to come out as an atheist materialist who believes in determinism, because that's just the physics of the universe and what it produced in you. And I was always bound to be a Christian who believes in agency and purpose and a God behind the universe, because that's just what the physics of the universe produced. Neither of us has arrived at those different beliefs through a process of logic, reason and evidence. We've just arrived at it through the fizzing of the chemistry in our brains in the end.
That's all it is. And then you've got to ask yourself, well, how do we know that the determinism is true? Because I've arrived at that belief through a completely non rational process. so for me, it's like sitting on a branch, and the atheist happily soaring away at the branch they're sitting on, because you're completely undercutting the whole process by which you arrived at this. So I think there's it's, it's, it's a completely incoherent philosophy, in my view. I've argued it once or twice with a few well known atheists online.
But I for me, yeah, it's a kind of it's a chapter in the book, which I'm if I'm honest, I kind of give myself permission to go off on a bit of a philosophical kind of, you know, tear and it's, it's not going to be directly relevant, you know, in all honesty, to maybe a lot of the conversations we have in everyday life. But I think it's it, I just wanted to kind of point it out, because so much of our culture has kind of gone down this very logical, rational, reasonable.
PJ (31:50.712)
You
Justin Brierley (32:11.457)
route thinking that we can kind of basically understand everything through the application of science and logic and reason. And the reality is, you don't even get reason by just applying reason in that sense. You there's got to be something more. And for me, it's a strong indicator that there is at least one free agent in the universe, and that's God. And, and for me, we have to believe in personal freedom.
to be able to make sense of reason, be able to make sense of justice to me, and to make sense of all kinds of things in life. And I just noticed more and more people starting to be aware of that, you know, in academic circles and elsewhere, as these kinds of topics often get, you know, turned over on popular podcasts and video channels and things. I think people are starting to realize, okay, it feels like maybe a completely atheist materialist determinist universe is actually
presents a few problems to me. And for me, that's again an important part of the kind of bigger picture of this surprising rebirth.
PJ (33:21.056)
I when you talk about everyday life, it's not as clear as you've put it. But I think people do run into this. And I think it is a really important chapter in the book. think for a lot of people, science and what they really mean by science is naturalism or materialism is the primary explanation. And then we have lot of nuns who are religious. think it's they kind of add mysticism on afterwards because it's not enough, but they're like
But the primary explanation is always materialistic. I think by kind of striking at that, think it is, I think I find it useful. Do you kind of see that in like every day? Is it kind of diffuse like that? Does that make sense?
Justin Brierley (34:04.471)
Yeah, I think people kind of encounter this stuff at an everyday level, in all kinds of ways. I think, where I most commonly find that people encounter it is, is actually on the question of morality. Because again, one of the effects of this kind of materialist deterministic worldview, is that there is no such thing as objective right or wrong. There's just kind of what we end up doing, according to kind of
we're driven to do by this deterministic universe and everything else in it. And again, it's, I think a lot of people then, when they encountered this question, it comes at the point where they kind of do see real, what feels to them like something really right or something really wrong. And that might be a personal experience of something. And if they run into a philosophy, which basically says, no, that's, you know, when your cousin got murdered,
that wasn't really a wrong thing. was just, you know, someone.
according to their DNA or whatever. I think a lot of people have a very instinctive sense that no, I can't accept that. There is something really right and wrong about the way we treat each other. The example I've often used is I had a conversation with Richard Dawkins, a very well known atheist biologist. several years ago, we kind of talked about this issue of morality after a sort of debate he'd had at Oxford University.
with Professor John Lennox. And we got onto the subject that they'd also discussed about morality and whether we can make sense of this idea of right and wrong in the absence of God. And I said to him, words to the effect, well, look, if we'd evolved, you know, in a purely godless universe, just evolved a belief that rape is not wrong, would that mean that rape is not wrong? Okay.
Justin Brierley (36:05.121)
And he said, well, I don't really want to answer that question. The point is, we've evolved into a society where it is considered wrong. And that's because we regard, you know, failure to keep your promises, all kinds of things we we kind of, we've evolved to believe that these are, you know, the way we want to act. I said, Okay, but when you say that this is good, isn't the reason you stand on that statement, that it's good, not because of the evolution, but because of the fact, you know, of it being good, if you like.
He says, you could say that, but my, you know, my, my moral instincts could come from my evolutionary past. I said, okay, but I said, ultimately, the fact that we believe rape is wrong is as arbitrary as the fact we develop five fingers rather than six. And he said, you could say that. Yes. And, I think you could say that I think a thorough going materialist atheist determinist, I think Dawkins is a determinist as well should say that it's a kind of, it's the logical outworking.
of that worldview, that ultimately your belief that rape is wrong is effectively just the forces of socio cultural evolution. There's nothing actually right or wrong about it. It's just the way that biology and your your your evolutionary paths kind of make you feel about it. But of course, there have been cultures that have developed a very different view on that. You go back to Roman culture and a, you know, senior Roman male could have his pick of who he wanted.
anyone who was basically a social inferior was fair game. You see, rape happens in the animal kingdom all the time. There's lots of it's it's not a it's not sort of so the question is, well, is it is that all it is then? Is it just this kind of, you know, some, sometimes we think it's wrong. Sometimes we don't, it depends on where we are in our evolutionary process. There's no kind of nothing to which we're progressing. It's just it's just whatever is. And, and most people just don't
get on board with that. can't they say no, no, no, no. I believe that rape is wrong. Is not just about the happenstance of the hand we happen to have been dealt at this time. There's there are really right and wrong ways of treating people and if people who don't believe that today or in the past, they were mistaken. We know better than them. There's something we've progressed towards. If we now believe that rape is wrong, and
Justin Brierley (38:29.475)
And that's, and then you're dealing with, well, where does that come from? In the end? Where does that moral aspect of life that moral value that moral duty exist, if we live in a world of pure material forces? And the only answer I give that is that we don't live in a world of purely material forces that actually, we live in a world where morality has somehow been baked in to reality, through a moral lawgiver. And, and so for me,
PJ (38:33.142)
Where does that come from? Yeah.
Justin Brierley (38:59.331)
Christianity fits better with that intuition than an atheist materialist worldview. And I felt that came out just in that brief conversation I had with Dawkins.
PJ (39:11.124)
I actually just had an episode come out with Dr. Victor Kumar on the evolution of the moral mind. I think the book is called A Better Ape. And it's one of those things I really appreciated. He literally wrote a book just kind of biting the bullet and just, mean, people do like, this is not a straw man. People do very much believe this. That's his whole book. And that just came out recently. anyways, it's still very much a live debate.
Justin Brierley (39:36.184)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and the name escapes me of the philosopher, there's quite a well known sort of biologist and philosopher, who's been writing recently on determinism in a like manner, and kind of very much biting the bullet there. And again, his views becoming, you know, quite mainstream, quite well known in that way. So yeah, I agree. It's, it's not a, it's not a straw man. And
I think even for people who don't necessarily who haven't reached these sort of logical conclusions, they're actually nonetheless still often hearing from a lot of people who have often academically, those are the underlying assumptions that we live in this purely material world of forces. And there's no ultimate truth or beauty, right or wrong. These are just kind of illusions we've kind of foisted upon reality to help us get through kind of thing. so I think even if people don't necessarily think of themselves that way, they're often
being shaped by people who do.
PJ (40:38.648)
really appreciate you talking about us embracing our intellectual heritage as Christians. And when you talk about roots, when people say there aren't answers to questions, like, I don't think you're digging deep enough. because Andy's been around a long time, there's a lot of different answers. mean, you kind of half referenced a planting argument earlier about, you know, is evolution even, you know, truthful because of the process it gets at?
Justin Brierley (41:06.965)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
PJ (41:08.91)
But a lot of his arguments are just more muscle, muscular versions of Augustinian arguments. But you also, you encourage the church to embrace both reason and imagination. Can you talk about why we need to not just embrace our intellectual heritage, but also this kind of more fertile Christian imagination?
Justin Brierley (41:16.675)
Hmm.
Justin Brierley (41:34.539)
Yeah, and, and, and I've really enjoyed the very intellectual conversation we've had so far, which is kind of in my wheelhouse, which I've been in for years and years of apologetics, you know, debating things like, you know, you reference there the the evolutionary argument against naturalism by Plantinga, though, admittedly, these aren't the kinds of things that that, you know, people on the street tend to be kind of talking about, necessarily. But nonetheless, I think, yeah, there's been a huge strength, actually, often, in some ways, kind of
that that was emboldened by the new atheism itself, of apologetics kind of coming back into the church in all kinds of ways. And I welcomed that my own show was very much a product of the fact that new atheism was presenting, you know, a really big set of objections against Christianity. And, and I enjoyed being part of the movement that tried to counter it with these intellectual responses, and so on. And there's going to be a lot of people for him, that's still an important aspect of it. But I think the reality is that
most people in, quote unquote, everyday life, they don't tend to start with these kinds of questions. And in reality, as the new atheism has kind of waned, as those sorts of big set piece debates and objections to faith that was characterized by those thinkers and public intellectuals, as that's waned, I think it's it's means that the church likewise and evangelists and other people
need to change tack as well and realize that actually most people aren't waking up in the morning and asking for for philosophical arguments for the existence of God. They're, they're waking up in the argument in the morning, probably actually asking themselves something like, you know, give me a reason to get out of bed this morning, because there's a lot of depression. There's a mental health crisis, you know, there's a meaning crisis, there's I talk about this a lot in the book and the podcast series as well, that people just don't have a story that makes sense of their life any longer. And the stories
PJ (43:11.413)
you
Justin Brierley (43:33.281)
as the Christian story has receded, the stories that have replaced the Christian story are increasingly thin and superficial ones, quite quasi religious in many ways, you know, when it comes to, you know, sacred identities or sexualities or stuff that people may kind of invest their purpose and their meaning and their worth in, or equally political mythologies on the right, but they don't do the job and they're not meant to, you know, and
And they create these cultural wars, they create this meaning crisis, they create a mental health crisis in turn, as technology only tends to kind of accelerate all of that, especially among young people. And so what you've got, I think, is, is actually a lot of existential questions that people are actually asking about identity, very often, about who am I, what's the point of life. And, and that's where you probably need to begin. And, and by and large, I think,
answer those kinds of questions, you do need a more imaginative approach than just a purely sort of analytical, irrational approach. And, and again, CS Lewis is someone I referenced in relation to this, because I think he was a masterful at both doing the kind of the traditional classical apologetics through books that he wrote, like The Problem of Pain, Christianity, you know, classics of apologetics. But I think he probably
brought more people into an awareness and into an approach to the Christian faith, actually through his fantasy fiction, through the Narnia stories, which you know, incredibly popular, I read them as a child, I can imagine you've probably read them as well. And, and what he was doing there was he was creating an imaginative world, in which he kind of gave people permission to believe in Christianity, by kind of presenting it in a completely different form.
But by doing so, he sort of opened the door, I think, to Christian faith for a lot of people, because he made them wish that it were true. You know, because this, this fantasy land of talking beasts and adventure and the fight of good versus evil, and this majestic but not tame lion who ruled over it was so invigorating and exciting, you know, who hasn't knocked on the back of a wardrobe door once or twice in their life, just to check that.
PJ (45:56.334)
Hahaha
Justin Brierley (45:57.421)
there's not this magical land behind it. But he wasn't simply doing it to kind of entertain us. But he was doing it to kind of, think, fire that part of our brain that is that part of our soul really, that is actually looking for the good, beautiful and true story. And he said, you he explicitly said in the in the Chronicles to Lucy when she had to leave Narnia for the last time, you must learn to know me in your world by another name and
he was kind of giving people permission to imagine what it would be like if Christianity were true in this world, to kind of set them up for the idea. Well, what if it is true? In your world? What if all these longings and desires that this is evoked in you actually have a fulfillment to them in your world in real life, if you like. And, and Lewis, you know, his own conversion, again, was was obviously intellectual at one level, I think it was kind of the moral argument that kind of
took him from atheism to theism. But really what converted him to Christianity wasn't that it was an imaginative encounter, helped by his friend JR Tolkien. When they went on a walk, you know, this is a well known sort of episode, I'm not, you know, we've probably slightly immortalized it in tradition now, but they went on a walk around Addison's walk behind Magdalen College, with Lewis still kind of trying to make sense of the Christian faith, JR Tolkien, a committed Catholic, and obviously a prodigious himself.
fantasy writer, though at that point, he hadn't published The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit. and Lewis sort of, Lewis's problem was, well, there are lots of myths out there about dying and rising gods. So how, you know, why should Christianity be true? And the way Tolkien put it to it was he said, well, what if Christianity is the true myth? What if all of those other myths are not just
fertile imagination of people, but they represent echoes of something really true. And rather than negating all of that and saying, none of it's true, the world is really just a material place. What if actually all of those stories of dying and rising gods in lots of different traditions and cultures are actually pointing ahead or back to the fact that really did happen in a time and place and that's
Justin Brierley (48:24.063)
who Jesus is, a kind of fulfillment of all of that. And I find that helpful, you know, that imaginative way of entering and it was certainly the thing that seemed to have sealed the deal for Lewis and he realized, I don't have to surrender my imagination. There's, Christianity kind of fulfills the imagination and the longings and the desires of our hearts. and that's in a very long, sorry, it's taking me so long to get around to answering the question. But the point is, it's the
PJ (48:47.916)
No, enjoyed it.
Justin Brierley (48:52.107)
often with that's where we need to begin with people with their deepest longings and imaginations. And that's not necessarily going to look the same for everyone, obviously. But I think I think you have to take that very seriously. And, you know, just to finish this up the way that Blaise Pascal put it, he said, make good men wish that religion were true, and then show them that it is. And I think that's often the way around, we need to do it now, we need to start with the imagination, make them wish that it were true. And then, you know,
perhaps later on, they might need some sort of that classical apologetics, know, showing them the arguments for God, the historical evidence for Christianity, whatever. But I think they're not going to be interested in hearing that stuff until you've made them wish that it were true in the first place.
PJ (49:39.338)
One, by no means was that too long. It was a great answer. you know, it's interesting. The second kind of call you make to the church fits right along with this. It's almost like you wrote it that way. But you talk about keeping Christianity weird, and this is something that has really resonated with me and I think goes back to that starting.
Justin Brierley (49:52.227)
You
PJ (50:04.742)
I want to be optimistic and I am optimistic and I'm excited about the rebirth of belief in God. I do, just as you mentioned in the book, this idea of a metaphorical cultural Christianity.
leaves out the repentance part, right? It leaves out, if it's 90 % what I already believe, then you're not really, like, then I'm just, it's therapy, it's just making me feel comfortable. Can you talk about what the value is in keeping Christianity weird?
Justin Brierley (50:37.131)
Yeah. Well, this is just something that a number of these thinkers, historians, psychologists who are sort of attracted to Christian faith and attracted to church, but are still kind of remaining a little bit hesitant about diving in. This is what a lot of them have said to me. They said that the last thing that's going to attract me actually to church is for you to make it so palatable that it just blends in with the culture that already exists. They're not actually interested in having something they can already get, you know, whether it be
the worship style, you know, if, if you're basically doing a second rate version of Coldplay in church, you know, I can, I can already get that on Spotify much better than you can do it for me. Likewise, if it's, if it's, you know, if you're just kind of basically aping the kind of the cultural norms and means that are already out there in terms of your ethical values and everything else again, why go to church? I can hear that, you know, on
public radio on, you from the government, whatever. So, so what they were saying was, look, the thing that actually attracts me to church is, is when it looks quite different to the culture around me, when the worship feels different, when I'm being invited into something quite mysterious, otherworldly, weird. And, and so it's interesting to me that person I mentioned earlier, Tom Holland, this historian who's written this book, Dominion,
and now reaches millions of people through his Rest His History podcast, very often talking about the way Christianity has shaped the Western world and how we've simply kind of forgotten that because it's become so second nature. He's also been on a really interesting journey himself, investigating faith and when he does go to church, he goes to London's oldest church, 900 year old, St Bartholomew the Great.
steeped in that kind of very mysterious Anglo Catholic liturgical tradition. I went to Evensong with him at the start of this year, and it was an extraordinary experience. It's not my tradition, really, but I can see why it's so attractive to Tom, because it kind of takes him out of his everyday world, you know, in that way. And I think that that's something to bear in mind, that people are looking for something weird in that way.
Justin Brierley (53:00.193)
not necessarily just in that tradition, you know, the other sort of end of the spectrum that Tom mentioned in a conversation I had with him earlier this year in public was that the fact that the other kind of growing part of the church in the UK, at least is more kind of Pentecostal charismatic variety. And again, it's the weirdness of the expression that I think is part of the attraction. So he's kind of like he's very up for sort of people, you know, Christians kind of just being comfortable with the weirdness of of of
what church is. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think though it does extend as well to that the ethical challenge of Christianity, I think very often, Christianity can kind of, you try to make it so seeker friendly and palatable, that again, you kind of remove all of the ethical demands it may place upon a person. And, and again, I think, again, it kind of becomes invisible at that
point, you're not offering anything or asking anything different. And again, I would say if you if people who have kind of tried that as a recipe for becoming more relevant, and hopefully, more people being attracted to church, that the hard data shows that that does not work, you know, the churches, the church denominations that have gone down that route, are hemorrhaging people rather than adding people. So there's something about just being willing to be weird.
actually. And that's how Christianity grew in the first century. It was so weird. It's it was it was weird. For all the reasons that we no longer think are weird. And that's the irony, as Tom Holland says, we've because we've become a culture that's absolutely signed on the dotted line of human equality, human rights, freedom, compassion, progress, and so on. These were not the shared values of the Greco Roman world.
But when Christians started to live out this very countercultural, weird way of looking at life and acting because of the example of Jesus Christ, it was very attractive to a lot of people, to slaves, to women. And it grew very fast because of the weirdness. Now we've completely adopted all of those values in Western culture. So they no longer appear weird, but they were. that was why Christianity grew. So the challenge Tom Holland gave to me in the audience that we were with,
Justin Brierley (55:22.177)
was, well, given that those aspects of Christianity are no longer considered weird, what what do you still have that's weird? And he said, maybe you need to major on the supernatural, maybe and he gave his own story of kind of a weird supernatural miracle that kind of happened in his life. And, and so it's interesting, I think it gives us this challenge, you know, how do we keep Christianity weird? And, and I think that's, yeah, that's a challenge to me, certainly, and a challenge to many churches that I know.
PJ (55:50.41)
Justin one. Can I say thank you for coming on the show? I want to be respectful of your time so if I could ask one more question besides Watching or listening to your ongoing podcast documentary on surprising rebirth of belief in God and besides buying your excellent book What would you recommend to our? Audience after listening to this our episode something to think on something to or maybe to do over the next week
Justin Brierley (56:18.755)
That's a great question.
Justin Brierley (56:23.425)
I could never give any better advice than to pray, honestly. And to take the time to pray. Something I'm... Well, yeah, it is. It is. Because the temptation, the temptation is to say, go and read this book, listen to that podcast. The thing is, you know, we get a lot of information already. And so I don't think what most people actually need now is more information. I think there's a...
PJ (56:32.952)
Kind of a weird answer, isn't it? Sorry, could resist.
PJ (56:41.494)
Yeah.
PJ (56:46.882)
Right.
Justin Brierley (56:53.631)
a moment's coming when we need to kind of do what generations of people have done before us. And just remember that, as we were saying earlier in this conversation, we're not in control and we can't, you know, manage everything around us to create the outcomes we want. Prayer is the most profound and simple, historic way in which people have actually
PJ (57:01.324)
Hmm.
Justin Brierley (57:22.345)
accessed something beyond themselves and a power that is, you know, different to the way in which we try to kind of manage our knowledge and wisdom and everything through through books and media and everything else. I'm constantly challenged myself on this. I'm kind of preaching to myself here. Because culture kind of mediates against it. Every time I stop
for 10, 15 minutes to pray. There's a bit of my brain that's saying, this is pointless. You could be doing something more useful with your time right now. And that is, and I have to remind myself that that is basically my materialistic Western culture that is kind of feeding me a lie at that point. And actually probably the best way I can use my time.
every day is to make sure that I use it to kind of.
Justin Brierley (58:26.925)
connect with something that's bigger than me. And, and I'm just increasingly convinced, I suppose, that, that much more is wrought in prayer than we can ever, we will ever realize that we live in a world that is certainly, you know, we're called to act and to do things, and to be wise and to, to learn what we need to learn to get through it. But actually, there's, the world is far more mysterious than
than we think. And there's a lot more going on in at a spiritual level in our world. And so stopping to just check in and make sure that you're tuned in is, just an absolute fundamental part of, know, what it means to be a Christian and to live a life. yeah, be weird. Get, get on your knees. Maybe even, you know,
Do you set like the thing I've started doing recently. I haven't told anyone this after I my kids at school. I've just, I found this, I've got this kind of 20 minute window. And before I drive home, I just, the day begins in all kinds of ways. I get my phone out, but not to go on Twitter. I've downloaded an app, which has the basically has the, the daily office on it.
which is the kind of Anglican prayers that you can say in the morning, midday and in the evening. And normally one would, you know, in the ideal scenario, say this with others with, you know, perhaps a priest leading, but there's these responses, basically, and they're the same every single day, the responses, what changes is the Bible readings, and some of the Psalms and, and so on. But I just say these, I kind of in my head, I say the bit that
like I, the priest would say, and I say out loud, the bit that the congregation would say. And, and I go through it, and then I read, you know, the passages for the day. And when it comes to the bit where it says, the congregation may offer their own prayers, that's where I, you know, bring some of my own prayers and needs and so on to God. But I found it really helpful. I feel weird sitting there, saying this to myself, sort of, but at the same time, there's something about
Justin Brierley (01:00:53.517)
committing to saying it, to saying these things that are kind of thousands of years old, actually, well, hundreds of years old, but thousands of years old in their original form, that I found really helpful. And I'm not having to kind of come up with it every time myself. It's just another, and likewise, I know other people whose prayer life has been transformed by kneeling, know, doing something with your body that, and often we've been sort of imbibed a certain kind of culture of you just, you know, just
be you just be informal, it's just between you and God. But actually, there's a reason why people have found certain ways of praying really helpful. Because we're more than just a mind, we're a body and, and so so that's just the one little thing for me that's that's been helpful. And I don't, like I said, I'm probably the last person to be dispensing advice on prayer, honestly, but the, but I just think, yeah, we that's where we need to reconnect if we're going to sort of really see something
something different happen in the culture that we're currently in.
PJ (01:01:56.556)
I think that's an incredible answer. It's so easy for us to look at the supernatural and to look at the supernaturals out there. And what I really appreciate about your answer is the reminder that for Christians, the supernatural is immediately accessible. Justin, wonderful having you on today. Thank you so much.
Justin Brierley (01:02:16.055)
Thank you so much. It's been great to be with you.