Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
I want to paint a familiar
picture for most of you.
Imagine you're walking
a trade show floor,
and booth after booth,
everything sounds the same.
Same buzzwords, same safe
messaging, same, "We help
you drive efficiency and
unlock value." It all
just blends together.
This is what happens in B2B.
We're trying to speak
to so many stakeholders
that everything we
do gets watered down.
We play it safe, and
we lose what actually
makes someone care.
So how do you
break out of that?
How do you go from sounding
like everyone else to
actually connecting?
Today, we're getting into one
of the hardest and arguably
the most underrated skills
in product marketing: how to
take something, well, boring
and make people actually care.
And we're doing it
with someone who has
built a reputation for
doing exactly that.
With that, I'm so
excited to welcome Stefan
Goldbach to the show.
Stefan is a product marketer
at Pushpay, but you guys,
that's just the baseline.
He's known for his viral,
unhinged, and genuinely
hilarious satirical videos
that have taken over product
marketing on LinkedIn.
What makes Stefan so perfect
for this episode is that
he isn't just creative,
but he also knows how
to bring organizations
along for that ride.
He helped Pushpay transform
their approach of storytelling
in a pretty cautious market,
that, you know, nonprofit
donations kind of market,
and he did it inside the
company with stakeholders,
brand guidelines, all the
risk aversion, and if you
haven't been there before,
take my word for it, that's
where it gets really hard.
But Stefan makes it look
easy, and he's here with us
today to share his playbook.
Stefan, welcome to the show.
Thank you very much.
Those are very kind words.
I never know if, like, having
unhinged content is a, is a
good or a bad thing, but I'm
gonna take it as a compliment.
And, uh, yeah, I've,
I've listened to the
show a couple times.
It's, it's really good,
so I'm happy to be here
Yay.
Yeah, I know.
Bringing in all of the,
the great minds who do
take the bold risks.
it's all good.
Okay, so first and foremost,
just help me and any
listeners out there who
may not know, like bring us
up to speed a little bit.
What is Pushpay exactly?
Yeah.
Pushpay is in the church
tech industry, and I best
describe that as a CRM mixed
with payment processing
for donations, you know,
And uh, this is all for
churches and nonprofits.
So if you think about
churches, they basically
act as like an entire
small community, right?
They have schools, they have
groups, they have events.
Some have thousands
of congregants.
So to run an organization
as complex as that, you
need a lot of software,
and that's basically
where Pushpay comes in.
And I would imagine, like,
having software that you
feel like you can trust, and
once it's super integrated
into so many aspects
of that community, it's
probably really important.
So the content that you
put out probably plays
a really big role in
building that trust.
So it kind of makes your,
the case study that we're
about to dig in here a
little bit more interesting
and relevant, um, with this
aspect of building trust with
your audience and internally
with your stakeholders.
So I don't wanna
give too much away.
So again, for the first,
um, segment of our show,
we're doing a case study,
and today we're talking all
about how you introduced,
more creative storytelling
through the various types
of content that you put out.
So tell us more about
what was going on at
Pushpay when you realized
something needed to change.
Sure.
You know, and I, I've
been a product marketer
for over eight years.
I worked across multiple
industries, but I started
at Pushpay a little bit
over a year ago, and
this was my first time
working at Church Tech.
Never been anything,
you know, in close to
Church Tech before.
And I took a look at a lot
of our content outputs from
product marketing, and a
lot of it was safe to the
point of, you know, kind of
making me fall asleep, right?
Which is never really a,
a good sign in marketing.
Uh, it was a lot of stock
photos or, or stock videos of
people hugging in churches, a
lot of cliches, a lot of those
terms that we all love, the
transforms, the revolutionize,
some of the generic benefits
of, of save time and money.
And as a part of my
competitive research, I
looked at our competitors,
and a lot of them were
doing the same thing.
Honestly, to the point that
if you just switched out
the logos between different
content and ours, you
wouldn't be able to tell
the difference, which in
marketing is really the
last thing you wanna do.
Uh, if you wanna be
anything in marketing,
it's, it's to be different
Absolutely.
And I feel like I personally
have been here before,
probably multiple times,
to be honest, where you
feel like you're … That,
that stock content that,
that you're referring to.
I would bet every B2B marketer
out there listening right
now has experienced that
with their own brand and
cannot resist the urge to
purge it as soon as possible.
Um, so how did you
approach that situation?
Like, you're looking around,
you're seeing all this,
like, stock stuff, and
you're realizing, like, "This
isn't making us stand out
in a good way." Like, what
was your task at hand as
you evaluated all of this?
Yeah, really the task
was to make the content
more interesting.
You know, how do we
make customers care
about our marketing?
How do we make customers
feel something when they
see a piece of our content?
How do we get them
to start, you know,
engaging on social media?
And kind of most importantly,
you know, what can we
actually get away with?
We are marketing to
churches after all, so
there's some lines that you
just can't cross, right?
I think there is a
misconception out there
that, that churches are more
uptight and maybe wouldn't
like funny, but I promise
you, you know, your average
church administrator is
spending their free time on
TikTok and looking at memes
just like the rest of us.
You know, everybody likes
funny, but for this group,
we need to be respectful
of certain things, so part
of the challenge is kind of
finding where that line was
Right.
So I would bet, uh, I
would guess a lot of
experimentation, and again, I
can't help but thinking just
as you're talking, that trust
aspect to me just would keep
popping up, and you're ta-
e- even as you're explaining,
like, you're trying to find
where the line is because you
don't wanna lose their trust.
You wanna keep their trust,
but you wanna, um, also ignite
some emotional connection.
And a lot of this is, um,
from a content perspective
and with marketing, it's
all empirical, right?
Like, you can see
it and believe it.
Like, we know … I can look
at stock photos and know
that this isn't genuine.
This isn't authentic.
Like, you saw that when
you went in and, you know,
started evaluating this stuff.
So I'm curious, as you were
seeing all the empirical
evidence of all of this,
were there any metrics or
measures that kind of signaled
to you that, like, "Okay,
I can see that we have all
these stock photos. I know
that that's off just because
that is one of my guiding
principles as a marketer"
But was there anything else
from, like, a metrics or,
um, you know, was it revenue?
Was it pipeline?
Was it engagement?
Like, was there anything
else that was kind of
slipping or just, like, not
hitting where you needed
to, needed it to hit?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, engagement on our
launches probably wasn't the
best, you know, on both like
Pendo guide notifications
and email open rates and
things of that nature.
Um, we had product videos
that maybe get, you know,
one to two likes on social.
So these situations, I like
to look at who in the industry
is actually making noise.
You know, what are they
actually giving our target
audience that we, you
know, probably aren't?
Uh, Pushpay, you know, is
the market leader in the
industry, but we have a
crazy amount of competitors.
And one competitor in
particular, they weren't
taking a lot of business or
anything like, like that,
but they were generating
a lot of buzz and, and
getting more attention.
And I was looking at the
product, and the product
itself, like, really wasn't
half as good as ours.
So that situation, I'm asking
myself, "Okay, so what are
they doing to actually get
that attention?" And a lot of
it was because they had this,
you know, young, good-looking
founder, and he was, you
know, very brash and, and
sold a vision very well.
So while the product may
have not been as good, he
made customers feel like
they were part of this,
this big, you know, movement
to reinvent church tech.
And that kind of marketing
of a brand centered around
like a charming founder
really broke through the
noise of the kind of the
endless competition out there.
So in that situation, I'd ask
myself, "Okay, so how can we
also get prospects to care?
How do we make ourselves
stand out? How do we tap into
appealing to those same human
elements that was making our
own competitor appealing?"
Yeah.
I like that you didn't
immediately jump into,
like, a copycat strategy,
which does happen a lot
with marketers, right?
Like, "Let's put our founder
out there," and you know,
because I, I, my gosh, I've
been there with another
company where they were so
obsessed with the competition,
it just started looking
like a me too rather than
something that's authentic,
different, connected.
so how did you do it?
Like, how did you inspire
the company to make a
really big, bold move that
was differentiated, but
didn't cross the line?
Yeah.
I think anytime you wanna
make any kind of changes,
you know, you have to
establish credibility first.
So, you know, I was walking
into Pushpay, the first
thing I wanted to do was,
you know, kind of crush it
with some easy wins across
departments, you know,
such as updating some sales
enabling pieces, improving
communication in a few areas.
And then about, you know,
one to two months into the
company, I talked to a few
stakeholders, my boss, a few
others, and just kinda like,
uh, outlined what I learned
so far by analyzing our market
and our competitor efforts,
and offered a couple ideas
for making our product videos
just a little bit more fun.
And after getting that
buy-in, I kinda slowly
turned up the heat.
I'm a, I'm a big fan of
the frog and the boil-
bo- boiling pot analogy.
If you really try to go crazy,
you know, all, all at once
with your content, you're
gonna get kinda shut down
probably by the stakeholders.
You know, it's better to
start small and keep pushing
a little bit each time and
kind of prove your strategy
and your credibility.
And then once you can do that,
you kinda dial it up more.
So I worked with our
videographer, and we started
slowly kinda gradually moving
away from the street kinda
talking head videos and
some of the stock footage
and just adding a little
bit more movement, being
a little bit more playful.
I started using like a
whiteboard and using kind
of fun drawings to kind of
explain concepts, just to
kinda make it a little bit
more, you know, appealing.
And then after that, we
actually have been graduating
to more, I don't know, more
complex skits recently, uh,
kind of putting ourselves in
the customer's shoes and tell
s- tell stories in more of
a more fun and engaging way
Yeah.
Yeah.
sounds like a very similar
style to some of the
videos that you put out
on product marketing, that
skit style, which, and
not very many brands do.
And the ones that do, it
can either go, like, really
cheesy, and maybe that's okay.
Maybe it's okay to be cheesy.
s- I'm ch- I'm
cheesy sometimes.
But, um, it's hard to, to
nail that and get it right.
So, um, I guess just real
quick, like, before we jump
into a playbook, tell us
what happened at the end.
Like, after, I mean, not, it's
probably still ongoing, but
once you started to do some
of the m- the more bolder
pieces of content, what was
the result of some of that?
Yeah.
And first of all, I think,
I think cheesy can be good.
I think, I think cheesy,
especially now in the days
of AI and content saturation
and all of those things, uh,
cheesy's and adding a little
human element can actually be
a good thing, actually kind
of be a bonding experience
with your customers.
So I, I, I would push back
on the element that maybe
cheesy is always bad.
Uh, so it can actually
be a, a pretty, a pretty
powerful marketing agent.
Uh, but, you know, in this
situation, uh, you know,
the first good sign was
that, you know, people were
just kind of talking about
our c- our content, right?
I was just getting those
little things like, "Oh, that?
whiteboard was actually,
you know, pretty cool.
I l- love the way that
you kind of explained
that complicated concept.
That was, uh, that was pretty
interesting." And then for
metrics, we saw increases in,
you know, email click-through
rates, average time spent
on our in-app guides
went up, and our launches
actually started, you know,
increasing our leads as well.
So I was looking at
those different aspects.
Uh, and even recently, a
prospect actually messaged
me on LinkedIn saying that
that, you know, a recent Skiff
video was actually hilarious.
"I like Pushpay so much more
now." So it's even those,
like those small things,
like even when a prospect
like, like tells you that
they're gonna, I don't know,
consider Pushpay in a more
positive light, I think that's
something that, that I was
really proud of to hear.
Yeah.
It's all validation that
you are building trust
with the customer, with
the community that, that
surrounds your product.
so yeah, I feel like every
B2B marketer out there right
now has dreamt about, you
know, doing something like
this, like taking their
bor- the boring B2B content,
and making it more bold and
more creative and having
a stronger connection.
And what a huge compliment
to actually have a customer
reach out to you saying that
they liked your content.
Like, customers don't do that.
Like, they don't pay a
marketer a compliment like
that, at least not very often.
So that's really cool.
okay, so now I wanna jump into
turning this into a playbook.
So if someone is sitting out
here thinking like, "Okay,
my content is really boring,
but my company would never
go for bold," or, "It would
be really hard to do that.
Where do I start?" Like,
what would step one be for
the marketer who's kind of
stuck in that situation?
Yeah.
Step one is definitely,
you know, deeply understand
your customer, you know?
And like, like my aspect, I
probably use a lot of humor,
and humor is really one of the
more, like, powerful marketing
tools that you can use.
But what people find
funny varies across
different demographics
and industries, right?
So I would strongly
recommend to get to know your
customers, interview them,
hop on sales calls, attend
events, you know, et cetera.
And for me, I have a few
customers now that I'm kinda
close with, close with.
So if I have a little bit more
of a wacky idea, I'll just ask
them and run it by them first.
Like, "Hey, would
you find this funny?
Does this, does this
speak to you?" You know?
And I'll, I'll kinda take
like you're a little
built-in message testing.
Like
Yeah.
And I will build something
else to touch it, and,
and then I'll kinda take
their feedback and kind
of adjust from there.
And they, they've stopped
me from making bad decisions
before, so I, I always
appreciate their feedback.
That's awesome.
That's awesome.
Okay, so assuming that,
you know, most creative
content has that emotional
connection, and, like, I
guess how do you actually
get closer to that emotional
layer of your customer?
How do you find it?
I mean, you mentioned
kind of doing a little bit
of the message testing.
Like, is there anything
more in that understanding
your customer step that
you do to make sure you
are emotionally connecting?
So what I'll, what I'll
say here is go beyond
the basics, right?
So everyone defaults the
values of their products
to just a few cliches of,
of save time and money.
But those benefits don't
actually elicit emotion, so
try to go a little bit deeper,
and I'll use an example here.
So let's say you're marketing
a sales coaching software
to sales managers, and I
know this audience well.
I, I was a former seller,
so I can, I can speak
to it a, a little bit.
A surface level pain would
be using that sales coaching
software to hit your
pipeline numbers, right?
That's what, that's, that's
how the generic output of
what most marketers would use.
But that's really the,
the boring story here.
So let's go a
little bit deeper.
What actually bothers a sales
manager on an emotional level?
It's probably being stuck in
meetings seven hours a day,
doing endless forecasting,
and basically not having
enough time to coach their
reps, which is why they
probably became a sales
manager in the first place, is
actually to do that coaching.
So if you're telling the
story of this sales coaching
software, appeal to that
negative emotion of a before
state of really being stuck
in meetings, not being there
for your reps when they're
struggling and they need you,
and then tell the after state
story of using that coaching
software to regain time back,
create structure, and becoming
the caring manager that really
they always wanted to be.
So that's really just one
example, but just always dig
deeper than that surface level
and think about what actually
bothers your customers
on that emotional level.
Yeah.
I love that you called
out, and I'm gonna steal
this from you, don't worry,
I'll give you credit in the
future, the boring benefits.
That's why you j- you,
like, you just uncovered it.
That's why B2B is boring,
'cause it is, like.
But
There are some shining
examples, But yes, uh, by, by
and large it is, is boring.
Which, which makes
standing out fun actually,
and actually makes It a
little easier, so it's,
uh,
It does.
It does make it easier.
It's like counterintuitive
because it's hard once you
… It's hard to get there, but
then once you get there,
it's, it's way more fun.
okay, so step one
was understanding,
understand your customers.
Um, what's step two?
What's the next step?
Yeah, so back to boiling
the frog like I talked
about a little bit earlier.
So don't turn the heat
up all at once, and this
is both for internal
and external purposes.
So internally, if you go
crazy and you haven't built
credibility first, you're
gonna get shut down fast.
I've, I, I've
been there before.
You gotta have that, that
street cred first before you
can have that, that trust.
And externally, you know,
you may not know your
target, target audience as
well as you think, and you
could face major blowback
if you haven't tested
some smaller things first.
So I always advocate
for dialing up the heat,
testing it, getting metrics,
establishing yourself, and
then to continue to kind
of keep pushing a little
bit further each time
Got it.
Okay, so what you're sounding,
what you're explaining,
um, is sounding like
mini experiments, right?
Like going a little bit
further, seeing what works.
Was that really deliberate
for you, or was it kind
of just, is that just
kind of how you operate?
Or like, like I'm, like I'm
imagining, do you have like a
strategy, like with a content,
you uh, you know, calendar?
Like talk me through what
that looks like for you.
I mean, at Pushpay, I always
knew our end goal was to
make entertaining content.
Um, I'm a little more wacky
and fun in my personality,
so I knew that's always like
the end goal, but there's
different types of wacky and
fun, like I'm talking about
and knowing your audience,
you know, especially when
you're marketing to a more,
you know, conservative
audience like, like we are.
So for me, it's, it's
kinda have a plan on how to
escalate that boldness, right?
It's, it's, it's the speed.
It's how we're gonna be
bold exactly determined
by those testing metrics.
So I always wanna get bold
but how I'm getting there
and, and the speed of it
and everything like that is
gonna vary by the situation
and, and what the tests
are telling us at the time
Got it.
Okay.
But you had these little
experiments to gradually turn
up the heat, so to speak, on
boldness, and you said you,
that was intentional both
internally and externally,
which I think is so smart
because you don't want to,
especially in, in the type of
market that may be a little
bit more just generally
broadly speaking risk-averse.
So yeah, it's, it's smart
to do that so you don't
totally shock your audience
internally and externally.
and it sounds like it would
be, if I were to try to
replicate this strategy
a bit, putting together
like mini experiments on,
okay, where should I draw
the line in the sand?
And then also as you, as you
mentioned, like have your
customer, have a customer
or two that's a friendly
customer who can kind of
give you guidance on like,
"No, not funny," or like,
"Too risky," can kind of
help guide you on like how
bold you should go with some
of those mini experiments.
I guess like what's
next after I have all
those things in place?
As I'm like running
experiments, is it, is it
just kind of execution?
Kinda like, you know,
walk me through what do
I, where do I go next?
I would say prepare to
handle, like, objections.
Um, you're going to face
questions, you know, "Is this
off-brand? Does this match our
current marketing guidelines?"
You know, a lot of people
just, just don't like change.
Uh, so some people will
feel a little uneasy
about, you know, anything
different than what we've
been currently been doing.
So I'd be prepared to answer
those objection questions and
be able to back it up with
the metrics that, that you've
been kind of accumulating
as you've been doing the
testing along the way
Yeah.
Yeah.
One thing that I've done
as, I mean, I haven't done
this kind of experiment,
but I've done other kinds of
experiments in my marketing
career, and one thing that
I found works really well,
I didn't ne- necessarily
think about it for objection
handling, so that's a really
good perspective on it.
But one thing that I found
that it helps to keep my
stakeholders happy is to
tell them that I'm going to
run an experiment and why,
and what it's going to,
what it's going to tell us.
Um, not necessarily what's,
what the experiment will,
outcome will be, but at
least, like, it's going
to inform us on what.
Like, that's the kind of
thing that I would do.
And then I would conduct the
experiment, and then I would
go back again and be, "Hey,
remember that experiment I
told you about? Like, here
are the results, and then
here's what I'm gonna do next
based on that." And I found
that worked really well.
Um, I love adding, having
all of those metrics in
for objection handling.
Feels like it would help,
but also I could see that
being such a, you know, just
a bummer, buzzkill, like,
you know, losing momentum.
Like, how did you handle that?
Like, how did you not
let it slow you down?
Yeah, you know, back to
turning up the heat, you
know, every time you do
those tests, have evid-
evidence how you did it.
If someone internally doesn't
like something, but you
could point back to a hard
stat on why it performed
better, that will answer a
lot of objections and, you
know, just be very confident
and stand up for yourself.
You know, I know that sounds
small, but a lot of marketers
kinda cave at the first kind
of pushback from a higher-up.
But it, it's much better
to hold your ground a lot
of times and speak up for
yourself and speak confidently
on, on what you're doing
Right.
Right.
Okay, so what do I do if I
have my customer insights
and I have my content
experiments planned out, you
know, that, like, gradual
boldness, and I'm, I'm ready
for objections, I think.
Um, isn't it… Now, is
it just, is it go time?
Just start executing, and do
I just keep, you know, kind
of going on those steps?
What else is next?
It depends on the
organization, right?
Um, you know, because the
last piece is collaboration
with other marketers.
Unless you're at a tiny
startup, you'll likely
have to create content
with other teammates.
Um, at Pushpay, we
have this videographer,
her name is Mary Ann.
She's, she's amazing.
Uh, and she does, like,
the filming of our content.
But it took a while for us
to kind of find a groove.
You know, she had mostly
done those, those kind of
corporate style videos, and
I'm a guy who makes, you
know, kind of ridiculous,
wacky videos for LinkedIn.
So it, it's kind of a
clash of styles at first.
So it was a little difficult
to understand each other.
Uh, so even back then, like,
the turning up the heat, like,
was the best way to figure
out, like, how do we work,
you know, our best together.
And now that we've filmed
at least, you know, 70, 80
videos together, uh, and
we've kind of tweaked it
each time, like, "Hey, let's
try this something different
each time," now we're kind of
lockstep in, in what we do.
So, you know, my other
advice is figure out how to
work with other marketers
on your team and be--
understand their styles
and how you two are gonna
kind of mesh be- the best
Yeah.
70 to 80 videos?
So many videos.
It is, it's a lot.
been, I mean, I
guess you've been
there for,
a lot of, I mean, a lot of
them are small, but Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow, that's so many
v- so many videos.
Okay, So understand your
customers, turn up the heat
gradually, be ready for
objection handling, work
well with your stakeholders,
marketing team, the one,
the mar- other marketers who
are gonna help you execute.
And then wrapping all this
up, is the fifth step of
this playbook like just
continuing to iterate and
finding that groove and
evolving it based on how
your customers may be, you
accepting this, you know, new
style of content that you're
putting out in the world?
Yeah.
I mean, it, it's
never-ending refinement.
Um, even as, as the
business expands, right?
Like, like a lot of times
we're going after different
types of customers.
Your ICPs could kind of slowly
sh- you know, shift in time.
So you're constantly kind
of evaluating the market,
your customers, who you're
trying to go out after,
and then, you know, making
twists in your me- tweaks in
your messaging to kind of,
kind of match the situation.
So, um, it's a never-ending
process, but that,
that, that's what
makes creativity fun, right?
It's always, it's always a
new challenge out there, and
it's why, I don't know, why
I love marketing at least.
Yeah.
It's, yeah, super fun.
I totally agree with that.
Um, okay, and speaking of fun,
part of, there's, there's,
in my opinion anyway, there's
like three parts of the fun.
There's like the aha moment
when you're like, "Ooh, I
have a good idea," like based
on, you know, maybe some
insights that you're getting
about your customer, like the
whoever's gonna be rece- on
the receiving end of whatever
it is that you're creating.
And then there's the,
the act of creating it
can also be very fun.
And then the last thing that's
just very gratifying is the,
the end result of feeling
like that worked really well.
Um, so I guess help us
understand when… How do
you know when something is
working versus it's just
noise versus like, "Okay,
oops, that went too far."
Like, yes, the metrics,
but like is there anything
else at play here in
terms of, you know, is
it customer sentiment?
Is it y- you know, pipeline?
Like what's your kind of,
what's your go-to like,
"Okay, yeah, that worked"
Yeah
I mean, a- anytime you
try something new, I'm
watching engagement,
you know, click-through
rates, time on content.
Those are gonna be kind
of your early signals.
Uh, but vanity metrics
can kind of fool you,
of course, as, as we
all know as marketers.
So I try to back s-
s- a couple of those
things up with something
happening downstream.
You know, are leads moving?
Are prospects mentioning
the content in sales calls?
Uh, the last one's
my favorite, uh,
favorite one here.
When a prospect brings it up
un- unprompted, you actually
know it kind of stuck, like I
said about that, that prospect
who messaged me on LinkedIn.
Like that was, that was, that
was a good feeling, and that
was something we're heading
in the right direction there.
I hope you shared that
with your stakeholders
of course it is.
And as far as like going too
far, you know, the safest
protection you have is just
ha- having a couple of few
trusted customers, like I
talked about earlier, that
I could send something over
to before it goes live.
Does this land?
And then having that informal
loop kind of save you from
going too far, of course.
Totally.
Okay, last question
for you on this topic.
Um, I feel like you've given
s- a wealth of information
already, so, but if you had
to give one piece of advice
to a product marketer who
is trying to take their, you
know, the boring benefits,
you know, content about
their product and just make
it a bit more bold, like
what's one piece of advice
you would give to that PMM?
I'd say, um, work on
being more creative, and I
always hated when PMs say
or PMMs say like, like,
"I'm not creative," Right
Uh, creativity is a muscle.
Like yes, some
of it is innate.
We're all not gonna be Andy
Warhol, but everyone can be,
you know, better at being
creative, so just practice it.
Um, that's honestly why I make
like the silly videos that I
do on LinkedIn because I get
my storytelling reps in, so on
the job I have that practice.
So it just becomes so much
easier to break down a product
story in my head because I've
already gotten those reps in.
Uh, but for the audience,
you know, it doesn't
have to be videos.
You know, it could be
short stories, like take
an improv class, draw
something from scratch.
There's a million ways to
practice that creativity, and
every PMM out there should be
I love that advice.
I, I feel like in my own,
in my own career, I've gone
through phases of feeling
like, "Oh, I'm not creative"
to, you know, having that
validation of like, "Well,
I put the practice in,"
and to your point, I did
the reps. so such a great
tip and such a good story.
I think so many PMMs out
there would leave content
up to other marketers, but
when it comes to being about
your product and engaging
with your customers, I feel
like PMMs should have a
seat at the table for, if
not driving it, for some
of this kind of content.
And that's that's the
fun type of marketing.
You know, I, I'm not a
product marketer that just
likes to live in frameworks.
I wanna see this
thing come to life.
So
I, I, I honestly, like, I know
it's kinda hard and it can
be kinda challenging, but I,
I promise you, if you take
messaging and then you see it
come to life, that's the most
satisfying part of the job, at
least, at least in my opinion
I totally agree.
Totally agree.
Okay, so now it's time for
the next segment of the show.
This is the
messaging critique.
This is where as marketing
or product marketing experts,
uh, Stefan, you and I get to
analyze real world marketing,
and the fun part is that
you get to pick the company
that we'll be talking about.
Um, just to set some quick
ground rules, you are going
to, uh, pick a company
that, is one that you are
familiar with either the
market yourself or you are
part of the customer base.
Would not be fair to
critique messaging on a
company whose customers
we know nothing about.
and then, yeah, then tell
me what you're loving about
it, what stands out, um,
you know, what do you wish
the PMM would've considered
differently, and then
we'll brainstorm a little
bit on how that PMM could
take it to the next level.
So without, yeah, without
further ado, uh, please
reveal the company we'll
be looking at today
Yeah, we're
looking at Vidyard.
So I, I use these guys quite a
bit in my job, so I'm at least
Okay, Vidyard.
bit.
So I'm gonna pull up their,
um, I'm gonna pull up their
website, and we'll just
kinda go from there based
on, based on how they present
themselves on their website.
Granted, I understand
that sometimes PMMs don't
get a say in what's going
on the website, but in
theory, whoever created the
website is probably using
messaging that the PMM made.
Okay, so walk us through
the messaging itself.
Like, it-- And I'm, by the
way, I'm going to vidyard.com.
Let me know if that's
the right one, Stefan.
Is it V-I-D, then
yard, Y-A-R-D.com?
That's it, yeah
Okay, cool.
So walk us through, like,
just kinda give us an overview
of, like, who do you think
this is for, and what is
their kind of messaging and
story based on what, based
on how they're presenting
themselves on the web
Yeah.
So Vidyard is a video
hosting platform.
So basically instead of
sending someone like a YouTube
link, you send them a Vidyard
link, and on the back end you
can see exactly who watched
it, how long they watched and,
and whether they dropped off.
So it's basically video with
kind of a CRM layer on top.
Uh, I would say it's
primarily for B2B sales
teams and marketers.
Uh, sales reps use it more
for sending personalized
video messages to prospects,
and marketing teams like
myself use it more for
hosting and tracking
video content purposes.
Cool.
Cool.
Okay, and what's their story?
What's their messaging?
Like, I, I'm looking at their
website here, and I don't
wanna give too much away, but,
like, the first thing that
I … It's not the first part
of the messaging itself, but
the first thing that jumps out
at me is just their big, big,
bold header that says, "Video
for every customer moment."
But you tell us, like, what's,
what's the messaging here?
And I, I actually
like the hero.
You know, as I'm looking at
their messaging, I, I think
it's a pretty solid hero.
I mean, it has some jargon
like AI-powered and, and scale
trust, but video for every
customer moment, you know,
kind of makes sense for me.
I mean, that, That that's,
that's kind of what they
do is, is a sales rep
use it throughout the
prospecting that has some
automation services, you
know, to help do that.
Um, you-- It's kind
of a little creepy,
but you can create an
AI avatar of yourself
That is so creepy,
but also kind of,
I… People, you know, people,
pe-people like it, right?
Um, and they list the target
audience and the hero.
So for revenue teams,
you know, that'd be the
marketers and sales.
That, that makes sense.
And, and they list their
main features, right?
So it's video that's personal,
trackable, and embedded
in your to- in your tool.
So I think that's where
they kind of do well
is in the hero here.
And overall on the
homepage, you know
I think they, they use a
lot of screenshots as well.
I can look at this page
and have a pretty good idea
on what they're selling.
And maybe that's a lo- maybe
that sounds like a low bar,
but a lot of times in B2B,
I'm in the homepage like,
"Okay, what exactly is
I know.
I actually agree, and I
really, I'm not, I don't
think I would be in the
exact, um, maybe I would be
actually, uh, target audience.
I love their, the,
the hero copy here.
Just the big bold like video
for every customer moment
really resonates with me
and wants me… It's, it,
it causes me to want to
dig deeper, to be like,
"Ooh, what do you mean?
Ooh, where?
Ooh, well, which moments?
Okay, so what can I…"
You know, so it's, um, it's
intriguing, so I really,
I think they've done a
really great job with that.
And I, I also agree, I like
product imagery on a website.
Again, I'm not, we're not
here to critique the website,
but I do like that as part
of the product storytelling,
just because in B2B you
can be talking to so many
different stakeholders, so
it, it helps, um, create
some context for me as I'm
looking at the, the website
to see what your product
is and can it do the things
that I am looking to do.
Um, so I think it's
helpful for that.
So I don't wanna, you
know, take too much away.
Like, it sounds like you,
you see some things that
are working really well.
What are some things that
you wish the PMM would've
considered differently?
Okay, this one's probably
a UX one, but I, it,
it bothers me a lot.
Okay, so the logos underneath
the hero are, are a trick.
You look at that and, and you
think those logos are social
proof, they must use Vidyard,
but that's not what they are.
So, so it's a, that's not
that Salesforce uses it, it's
actually just integrations.
yes.
Use it with your
existing stack.
You're right
you too?
That fooled me, and I
was like, "Oh, Salesforce
uses them. That's, that's
really cool." But then
it's just like, it's
actually the integration.
So it's kind of a trick
that, that, 'cause,
It is a trick.
websites, yeah
'Cause I-- Most people,
they are just skimming, and
so they just see the, they
see the logos, and they're
like, "Okay, got it. Those
are the customers. Got it."
I was even gonna say, I like
how they have the customer
proof right at the top,
'cause typically something
about, like, the stack would
be closer to the bottom.
Right.
Right.
So a little, little, little
tricky there, but I'll, I'll,
I'll give you them that.
You gotta, you gotta play
those games in marketing
sometimes, so you know.
Yeah.
Sometimes you roll the dice.
Yeah,
I don't know if I
would roll the dice,
but to each their own.
yeah, for sure.
each their own.
All right
And I think, I mean, I
think the jargon gets,
you know, a little
crazy in, in some areas.
Um, you know, look at,
look beneath the hero,
you see like the, the
built for modern teams.
Um, and if I, I always think
like as, as opposed to what?
Is anybody building for
teams in the 1950s, right?
Like what, what
does that mean?
Yeah.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And, um, you know, and win
deals, scaling what's working.
I mean, it, it, it's good.
It, it's just, it's just
stuff that I've read a
million times before.
And, you know, back to the
earlier points here, I think
it's more surface level
rather than, than dealing
with actual pain points.
And, um, you know, another
small thing, I think they,
they, they say like AI
powered five times on a page,
which they use a lot of AI.
I'll, I'll, I'll give
them that, but, uh, AI
powered is one of those,
those buzzwords that, that
Yeah.
Slow down.
Yeah.
Slow down, cowboy.
All right.
So what, um, what advice do
you have to their PMMs or,
or, you know, how could they
take it to the next level?
There's a couple things here
that they could fix, but
is there, is there more to
the story in your opinion?
Yeah
You know, I'll, I'll,
I like the video there
on the top right.
I think they do, um, a good
job as like a walkthrough,
but it feels pretty, you
know, generic, very corporate.
Like there's almost like
too much lighting, which I
don't know, that perfectly
polished image I feel
like doesn't work, doesn't
work well nowadays in a
lot of, lot of settings.
But, I would think about
how to make this, you know,
more en- entertaining,
right, if I were them.
So for this, you know, how,
how do we tell a story here?
So let's actually flip the
script and tell a story of not
the seller or the marketer,
but of their customer.
So let's say in this video
we show a customer's inbox
filled with 10,000, you know,
marketing spam emails, right?
And customer's just
kind of rolling their
eyes and deleting them.
And then one email comes
in with like a personalised
video, and it talks
about the exact problem
they're experiencing
in their industry.
They find the content
worthwhile, and they've
already seen the face
of the seller, so they
feel comfortable, you
know, reaching out
for more information.
You know, having that kind of
a tweak where you add a story
to it to start the video would
be a lot more powerful than
just kind of a basic intro.
Um, so I-- that, that, that's
what I would kind of recommend
is from a storytelling aspect.
I love that.
I love that.
And something that, you know,
if they wanted some ideas
on, I guess, like where to
get started for some of that
storytelling, maybe they
could, you know, continue
with the story that they've
already placed at the top
of their website with video
for every customer moment.
Like, what moments?
Like, I wanna see, and like
what you kind of described
is one of those moments.
So I would, I
would be so cool.
I mean, maybe they have this.
They might have this already,
and I'm, you know, Captain
Obvious or something.
But it would be really cool
from a campaign perspective
to do a campaign that was like
customer moments, and then
it was all of those little,
like little engagements
or interactions that you
just desc- just described.
But they could do that,
ooh, they could do that
for like every member
of the buy team, too.
So, ooh, so good.
Yeah, so good.
Okay, Vidyard,
you can hire us.
Like
Please reach out.
yeah, right.
Um, okay, cool.
Is there anything else
you want to mention
about Vidyard before we
wrap up this segment?
No, I think, I think we
talked about them enough.
Uh, I, I use their product.
I don't wanna insult
them too much.
I, I like their
product, so, so good job
Yeah.
It does look really cool.
It does look really cool.
Um, okay, shout out Vidyard.
We really like the start
that you have with some of
your storytelling, um, and
we have some ideas for you.
So consider it.
Let us know what you think.
Um, okay.
So Stefan, one thing
that I like to make space
for on this podcast is
a moment of gratitude.
I know that in product
marketing, none of us
get to where we are
without others who have
taught us and mentored
us and showed us the way.
and by you coming on
here and sharing your
playbook, and it's helping
to mentor and educate
others in the communities.
Um, and so I'm grateful
for it, and I'm sure
everyone out there
listening right now is too.
So thank you so much
for being on the show.
And then also before we
wrap up, I wanted to turn
it around and see if you
had any PMMs that you wanted
to give any shout-outs to.
Part of the gratitude moment
is for you to be able to
give some kudos to the
PMMs who have shaped you
into the amazing product
marketer that you are
Yeah.
You know, I, I wasn't always,
uh, like a super creative PMM.
Um, like I used to be
a pretty conventional
stuffy product marketer.
We all, every, we have
all been that conventional
stuffy product marketer
And if you look up some of
my stuff and, and you wonder
why it's a little unhinged,
it, and it's because I was
shown by others that product
marketing like doesn't have
to be stale and it can be fun.
And you know, one guy who
I think best exemplifies
this is, is Zach Messler.
I remember my early LinkedIn
influencing days, you
know, seeing his stuff and
thinking like, "Okay, this
guy's like funny and weird,"
and weird in a good way.
I, I say that in a
perfectly good way.
And I, you know, I thought
about that and I was like,
"Well, maybe I don't have
to be, you know, boring
either. Maybe I don't have
to co- copy this kind of same
kind of stuffy formula with
frameworks and everything
like that." And I've had, you
know, several conversations
with him since then.
I've always loved, you know,
hearing his stories and,
and, and taking his advice.
So, you know, thank,
thank you to Zach.
Uh, you definitely walked
so us other weirdos could
run, so I, I appreciate it.
I love it.
Oh, so great.
I don't know.
I have to get connected
with him and, um, yeah.
Cool.
Awesome.
Okay, and this is my
last question for you.
Where else is it best
to get some access to
those Unhinged videos?
Is it best to just, uh, follow
you and add you on LinkedIn,
or are there other places
where we can find your work?
Yeah, LinkedIn is
probably the best place.
Um, I have a YouTube
channel as well, just
under my own name.
Um, other than that,
always feel free to
DM me on LinkedIn.
Always happy to
have a conversation
Awesome.
Sounds good.
Again, thank you
so much, Stefan.
This was so great.
All right.
Yep.
And hey, PMM listeners, if
you liked this episode, please
share it with a PMM friend,
and I would be so grateful if
you could leave us a review.
It helps tremendously
with our reach.
Thank you so much
for coming on this
adventure with us today.
I hope this episode leaves
you with the inspiration
to take in the next
step of your own journey