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A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
189. Kathleen Mills
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[00:00:00] Kathleen: And people are trying to find people who can have a conversation about whatever they wanna have and not feel like they're judged or have to be pigeonholed in a corner. I think that there are certain truths that are true. There are certain [00:00:15] facts that need to be embraced for psychology to just kind of go on this like, oh, free to be you and me.
[00:00:21] Kathleen: Kind of stuff isn't right for a lot of people. That's why you're seeing a lot of people leave the counseling profession and be a health coach or be a coach [00:00:30] because they're not in that psychology chasm anymore.
[00:00:34] Stephanie: You must be some kind of therapist
[00:00:40] Stephanie: today. I have the pleasure of speaking with Kathleen Mills. She is a licensed [00:00:45] professional counselor and a supervisor of counselors. She's the founder of Life Tree Counseling since 1992 in Frisco, Texas. The co-founder of the Association for Mental Health Professionals, a holistic counseling organization, [00:01:00] as well as the co-host of the Therapy Disruptors podcast.
[00:01:03] Stephanie: Kathleen, thank thanks so much for joining me. It's great to have you here.
[00:01:06] Kathleen: It. Thank you so much, Stephanie, for giving me the opportunity. I know it's been a, it's been a minute, but I'm, I'm happy to be here.
[00:01:13] Stephanie: Yeah, we're happy to connect. I love, uh, [00:01:15] that you, you were one of those names on my list of people to get to know someday, and then you made your way to the top.
[00:01:19] Stephanie: And now's our moment to finally really get acquainted. Um, and you, you were on my list too,
[00:01:24] Kathleen: so.
[00:01:26] Stephanie: So it's great to be here and I, I wanna cover a few things today. [00:01:30] So of course I wanna give you an opportunity to share about what AMP is doing. Uh, some friends of mine recently attended your conference. I know Ryan Rogers and Soad Reezy were there at the AMP conference, and I look forward to doing my best to make it there next year if possible.
[00:01:44] Stephanie: [00:01:45] Um, so definitely in talking about that, uh, another interesting thing I came across when, uh, just getting ready five minutes ago, was the fact that you started something called the Six Pillars as a holistic therapy framework. And I said, oh my goodness, I actually [00:02:00] met my husband because I created framework called the Six Pillars, and he found me that way.
[00:02:05] Stephanie: That's so what a funny story. Yes. And then the other thing I wanna make sure to explore with you today is that, um, as I. Well by [00:02:15] the time this comes out, I will have recently announced on my podcast that I am now Christian and exploring that on this podcast. Uh, I've been very private about my spiritual life for a long time, but something's shifted recently and so we're [00:02:30] gonna start having faith-based discussions as part of this podcast.
[00:02:33] Stephanie: And I'm just also going to be approaching whatever I'm interested in with that lens. And you are a Christian counselor, and so I wanna explore that too, and I have a, a little bit of a [00:02:45] starting point there. So I'm wondering out of, out of those things that are on my mind, is there one that you'd like to start with?
[00:02:51] Kathleen: Just, um, maybe we could talk about the association real quick and why we founded it, um, if that's acceptable to you, Stephanie. Yeah, let's [00:03:00] get that upfront. Let's get that upfront. So I've, you know, life Tree Counseling Center has been here since 1992 and we're a group practice, and of course we are celebrating our 34th year doing that group practice.
[00:03:13] Kathleen: But with that being said, [00:03:15] I've seen a lot of shifts certainly in the last five years, and it got me to wondering, something's changing and I don't think I fit in with the status quo anymore. And there were a couple of other [00:03:30] things that kind of catapulted, uh, me and my other co-founder, Philip, to start three years ago, the Association for Mental Health Professionals.
[00:03:40] Kathleen: Now we're not an association like the Legacy [00:03:45] Associations where there's a certain, um. Woke attitude with them. Rather, it's more of a mind, body, spirit kind of, um, philosophy. [00:04:00] Um, and that I think our profession has really mostly, for the most part has been siloed into thinking it's all neck up with your client take, uh, talking about thoughts, maybe some feelings, but [00:04:15] just stay on the neck up approach and it's got, it got me to thinking at least these last five years that our recovery is not just neck up, it's more about what's going on, you know, neck down, which is [00:04:30] a big piece, your body, um, your soul, your spiritual development.
[00:04:35] Kathleen: Because if we don't tackle all three at the same time, it will tend to, my experience is that it will tend to leave the client kind of stuck [00:04:45] 'cause they're still not feeling well. They still haven't developed a spiritual kinda walk, whatever it is, and it's just a matter of reframing things through. All kinds of different things.
[00:04:56] Kathleen: So, um, the Association for Mental Health [00:05:00] Professionals is really focusing on a mind, body, spirit mindset while challenging the legacy associations with their mantra. That has not changed, that I think has really gotten counselors [00:05:15] to believe that, you know, your clients need to stay with you forever. And I don't have that same mindset.
[00:05:22] Kathleen: I never did. It's like the goal for me when I see my clients is the goal here is to get you well, so you don't [00:05:30] ever have to walk into the 10 by 10 room anymore. You've got, you know, your mind, body, spirit connection going. So what our association really focuses in on is more of a holistic approach. Ditch the medications because it's not [00:05:45] getting anybody, well, it's matter of fact, it's getting people sicker.
[00:05:48] Kathleen: And so that's what we've been doing for the last three years. And we have an annual conference and we just got done with our third, which was completely amazing. And the idea is [00:06:00] that our association is not just staying in, uh, uh, the counselor psychologist, psychiatry role. Uh, my goal personally is to start getting, um, [00:06:15] different, um, medical doctors who are also holistic in their approach to.
[00:06:23] Kathleen: We gotta, we gotta start connecting with each other. We've been siloed, and that's the training is that you [00:06:30] only talk to a psychiatrist, maybe your primary care physician with a client, but it's only about symptom reduction relief through medications. So we need to start talking to natural paths. We need to start talking with medical doctors who are outside the [00:06:45] matrix at this point.
[00:06:46] Kathleen: And, um, try to help one another, build a new foundation of therapy or mindset for counselors to utilize and challenge the legacy associations with their own belief and [00:07:00] mindset, which is not gonna go, go away anytime soon.
[00:07:04] Stephanie: All right. Well said.
[00:07:07] Kathleen: You're, um, you're fired up. I'm fired up. And, um, I think most of our members are fired up too.
[00:07:14] Kathleen: [00:07:15] Certainly the, uh, attendees at our conference were just. Pretty much on fire the moment they got there and they're still talking about the conference. 'cause it really was healing on, um, all fronts, especially counselor to counselor who had [00:07:30] felt, we have all felt isolated. Like, I'm the only one that's thinking this, and that's not even true.
[00:07:36] Kathleen: So the goal for AMP is to get like-minded counselors who have felt all alone in their thinking, thinking that they were [00:07:45] crazy and what's wrong, and being quiet. Well, we're not gonna be quiet anymore. We're gonna be challenging the status quo.
[00:07:52] Stephanie: So you talk about a holistic approach and I can immediately hear the pushback.
[00:07:57] Stephanie: You know, I've been doing podcasting for a few years, so I can usually [00:08:00] picture the comment section. Now I can twist things in my mind, like, how would a, how would a bad faith, you know, person in the peanut gallery just ready to throw tomatoes? Like, how would they be hearing what you're saying? And, and one as well.
[00:08:13] Stephanie: Therapists we're trained in the, [00:08:15] the realm of the mind. We're not trained in the body. We're not doctors. Right. Why, why should we? And then I can hear the response to that, while there are somatic approaches to therapy, but it's important to stay in our lane. And I think those of us who are curious about [00:08:30] things like nutrition, you know, it's, it's, it's tricky in the counseling role to be aware of those issues, but also know how to speak about them in a way that honors our scope of practice, when to refer out things like that.
[00:08:43] Kathleen: Well, our scope of [00:08:45] practice is very wide, and so if you get the training in holistic kind of approaches, you can bring it to your 10 by 10 room. But Stephanie with. You know, with what you said, you're totally spot on. We have been trained [00:09:00] to be siloed. We have been trained to stay on the neck up approach.
[00:09:04] Kathleen: We have been trained that the only way out or to manage bipolar or depression or anxiety, whatever it is, is to just give them [00:09:15] another pill and let the psychiatrist, uh, do that piece. And we're just talking. Well, over the years, I have felt that that's not even close to what we need to be doing and bringing in other things that we [00:09:30] can be trained on, um, you know, physical and emotional and spiritual, we can be trained on that.
[00:09:37] Kathleen: And it is in my scope of practice because of the training that I've received throughout the years. So that's, that's, [00:09:45] that's the rub. Um, we can be in the scope of being therapists, but we also can expand that therapy to include. Mind, body, spirit, the, the trilogy, if you will,
[00:09:57] Stephanie: it's often argued that, [00:10:00] you know, people don't need to be told by a therapist or by a doctor about eating well, exercising, sleeping well, and that the role of the therapist is to explore why is someone self-sabotaging?
[00:10:13] Stephanie: Why aren't they acting [00:10:15] on what they know they need to do? Right? And that's where the, the deeper unconscious forces can really get in the way. Sometimes we don't want to get better. Sometimes we're getting something out of remaining stuck or dissociated. So I [00:10:30] imagine that in your line of work, there, there are judgment calls sometimes on when someone maybe needs psychoeducation about.
[00:10:39] Stephanie: Holistic healing and, and when to shift more into that psychodynamic role where it's, it's not about [00:10:45] telling the patient what's good for them, it's about exploring what's making it hard for them to act on what's good for them.
[00:10:53] Kathleen: There's a study, and I don't, can't pull it off the top of my head 'cause I don't have all my stuff in front of me, but [00:11:00] basically if you talk to a naturopath, you know, the naturopathic doctor, an nd who's gone to medical school and then before they had to go to naturopathic school, which is a whole, whole nother uh, dynamic is most of what the body and the [00:11:15] mind need, um, is.
[00:11:19] Kathleen: It is basically a mineral. Deficiency of some kind, so, and I can absolutely categorically say then anxiety, depression, [00:11:30] bipolar, even diabetes is a mineral deficiency. We have never been taught that, Stephanie. We've always approached it. Exactly. I always taught that. But yes, but most, go ahead, therapists will, will argue, well, that's not your [00:11:45] role.
[00:11:45] Kathleen: Well, if it isn't my role, whose role is it? If the medical community, they've never taken a nutrition course, they're not nutritionist, they'll n you'll never hear a doctor talk about what are you putting in your mouth? How [00:12:00] are you sleeping? Um, and other things because they are just dialed in on give them another pill or increase the pill because the first pill isn't quite as potent as it needs to be.
[00:12:13] Kathleen: That's all they do. [00:12:15] That's all the allopathic do. So to suggest that doctors, we need to let doctors, um, talk to the, their patients about nutrition is just comical. And so nobody is being really talking about nutrition, [00:12:30] uh, on the, on the allopathic side. So that's where I think therapists can really find a nice, sweet spot about.
[00:12:37] Kathleen: You know, what you're eating is how you're feeling, pretty much, and doing the deep dive into how compromised our [00:12:45] food system is too. Um, you're never gonna hear that from a MD because remember, their, their job is just to reduce the symptoms, not cure anything.
[00:12:55] Stephanie: I'm gonna push back a little, 'cause I have, I have a therapist and I also have a [00:13:00] great naturopath.
[00:13:01] Stephanie: Um, pro I, I probably the best one I've worked with. There are certain things that she doesn't, she doesn't have particular expertise in my issues necessarily, but her approach to [00:13:15] learning and communicating with patients, um, and understanding the complexity of how things interweave. And I'm forever grateful to her to being the first doctor to recognize that I needed thyroid treatment.
[00:13:29] Stephanie: Because I had long [00:13:30] suspected thyroid issues and I was really suffering with stuff that was very thyroid related. And everyone thought my labs looked normal until she took a look. And now I'm on thyroid medication and it, it instantly, I mean, I knew it was supposed to take weeks, but I really [00:13:45] felt my inner thermostat click up a notch.
[00:13:48] Stephanie: As soon as I started on the thyroid medication, I had, I was so cold all the time. So, you know, I, I am working with a, a good doctor who spends time with me [00:14:00] and tries to understand things and, and, uh, and I also have a psychodynamic Christian therapist who I see. And, uh, from the beginning of our [00:14:15] therapeutic relationship, he's recognized.
[00:14:20] Stephanie: My particular needs and how kind of sensitive I am to whether my therapist is holding the therapeutic frame. 'cause we've had moments where like the moment I felt like he was [00:14:30] inserting something that didn't need to be there, I just immediately very skeptical. And he is, but he picked up on that. And so in our last appointment I was talking about some of my symptoms and I noticed him deviating from the frame a little bit and starting to ask about my light therapy [00:14:45] practices.
[00:14:46] Stephanie: And I had such mixed feelings about that because I do use light therapy and I probably could have used the reminder now that we're in the dark season to shift that lamp a little closer to my face in the morning. And [00:15:00] um, and I actually did after that session, relocate my desk for the winter hours so that I get more sunlight, more daylight hitting my face while I'm just working.
[00:15:09] Stephanie: So it's like, on the one hand, yes, I could use that reminder. On the other hand, [00:15:15] it's, I can imagine. Getting lost down that rabbit hole if he starts shifting gears into asking me about every single thing in my diet and lifestyle, because believe me, I re, I've researched those things myself, [00:15:30] and we could end up sort of entering a transference countertransference dynamic where it's shifted far out of the therapeutic frame where he's like, well, are you making sure of this?
[00:15:40] Stephanie: And I'm like, you know, so I, I think I'm sensitive to that because [00:15:45] I'm so particular about what I need in therapy, and if we start to deviate from that frame, he knows I'll be the first to react. Um, but I, I, I see that as a, a little bit of a slippery slope because sometimes when we [00:16:00] shift into that mode of which, which I've entered that mode too, like wanting to interview a patient about their lifestyle practices, I feel like we're potentially, uh, stretching the therapeutic frame.
[00:16:14] Kathleen: I, again, [00:16:15] I, I, I'm gonna kind of. Push back just slightly and Okay. And suggest, no, no. I think your points are incredibly valid, but I'm gonna push back on just a little bit about, that's what we've been told. We needed to stay, [00:16:30] that's why we need to stay in our lane because you're not, you cannot go outside that lane.
[00:16:36] Kathleen: I kind of beg to differ because if nobody's going outside their lane, we're also not talking to each other. Professionally, either to, to [00:16:45] make a, um, a comprehensive treatment plan, if you will. And I think doctors are notoriously famous for not integrating their, some of their time to talking to, you know, the, the, the client's [00:17:00] therapist or whatever.
[00:17:00] Kathleen: Because again, we're on the low end of the rung, but we're on the top when it comes to delivering information. So the way that I do it now in with my clients, they know exactly who I am, what I'm about to [00:17:15] do with them if they choose me. Right? And it is a comprehensive mind, body, spirit approach. And I'm not throwing the baby out with the bath water and not talking about therapeutic issues.
[00:17:27] Kathleen: But what I'm bringing to the table [00:17:30] is the other two pieces of the puzzle so they can kind of. Um, critically have a conversation with me and themselves about, huh, well maybe, maybe that would help. I've never thought of it that way. [00:17:45] So it's still a very, um, at least the way that I do it is I hit all three, um, areas.
[00:17:55] Kathleen: Every t single time I see my clients. It's not just one [00:18:00] over the other two.
[00:18:01] Stephanie: You know what's interesting is we're talking about two separate related concepts. So, um, earlier we were using the word lane, then I used the word frame. Then you went back to using the word lane. So you're [00:18:15] talking about maybe we shouldn't stay in our lane.
[00:18:18] Stephanie: Maybe we should go into some adjacent lanes if we're to do the best at fulfilling our mission and purpose. And uh, when I was talking about the therapeutic frame, I'm more talking about, [00:18:30] I guess, the psychodynamic lens on what's happening relationally between the therapist and the patient. Right? That when the therapist enters problem solving mode, that sometimes that is significant, uh, in terms [00:18:45] of the transference counter transference dynamic, you know, that, um.
[00:18:50] Stephanie: Because in some ways, a therapist shifting into, like, if I were to take what my therapist did and extrapolate, let's say, take that much further where instead of just saying, so [00:19:00] do you use a seasonal affective disorder lamp? You know, instead of just doing that, like going beyond that and saying, okay, let's do a thorough inventory of your lifestyle.
[00:19:08] Stephanie: Tell me about how you're sleeping. Tell me about your, how you're eating. Now, I completely understand why those things are important to address. [00:19:15] However, if the therapist is in that mindset of, let me look for something that could be missing, a problem that we can solve, um, in terms of lifestyle, in what ways is that maybe similar [00:19:30] to any other time that a therapist might kind of enter problem solving mode with their patient?
[00:19:35] Stephanie: Like, okay, you have a problem at work. You have a conflict with your boss. Well, did you do this and did you do that? And did, you know, like, uh, there's there's a way that we exit. [00:19:45] The frame. I think depending maybe on a therapist's orientation. And I think that I'm coming at this as someone who knows that I need psychodynamic therapy, that, you know, I specifically chose a psychodynamic therapist and right from the beginning was testing my [00:20:00] therapist.
[00:20:00] Stephanie: Is he gonna hold the frame? And, and I think if, if someone is choosing a different modality, then maybe, maybe they're not defining the frame in the same way that I am.
[00:20:12] Kathleen: Well, I think you kind of nailed it here, Stephanie, [00:20:15] is that you have the free choice to, to find what you think is gonna work best for you.
[00:20:21] Kathleen: And that's what I'm offering, you know. My clients through my website of this is what you're gonna get if you pick me. If you don't pick me, [00:20:30] I'm good. Mm-hmm. But, um, you know, informed consent, it is informed consent. Um, so that's who they wanted to see because you're gonna be able to talk. It's interesting because some of the clients who come and [00:20:45] see me, I, I will ask them, well, what, what made what made you come here?
[00:20:49] Kathleen: Um, is it's particularly me and more times out of not, um, my clients will say, because I read, I read your website [00:21:00] and you were the only one that I can talk about things that nobody else wants to talk about. And I'm like, okay. So it is informed consent and it is free choice. So not all clients are gonna buy in to [00:21:15] how I do things, but it's very integrated.
[00:21:18] Kathleen: Um, but it is on the holistic mindset. You know, uh, I don't think our society has to be that segmented, but it is. I mean, everybody has been siloed and my [00:21:30] goal is to, we're not gonna be siloed anymore. And that's why I came up with my, um, own, own six pillars. Um, that if the client wants to do this, then we're gonna, we're gonna be very structured because that's what they want.
[00:21:44] Kathleen: It's, it's [00:21:45] interesting. The client is looking for these six pillars in our book, in my booklet, and where it's very homework assignment driven. It's their exploration, it's their recovery. This is what they wanna do [00:22:00] and this is how they wanna do it. And it gives them structure and permission to start somewhere within a blueprint.
[00:22:08] Kathleen: And for some clients,
[00:22:09] Stephanie: that's what they
[00:22:09] Kathleen: want.
[00:22:10] Stephanie: I think informed consent is a big part of what creates the frame. [00:22:15] It's that initial understanding, that initial contract that sets the expectations so that clients know what they're gonna get.
[00:22:24] Kathleen: Yes, and I, I totally agree, Stephanie. Totally. 100, a hundred percent.
[00:22:28] Kathleen: And a lot [00:22:30] of us, a lot of our, our colleagues from afar, they don't do informed consent. Now, I'm gonna go into the deep end here, and I'm gonna tell you that my clients did not get informed consent when their psychiatrist put 'em on five different [00:22:45] pills. So that's the rub. So now it makes my job a little harder, but I have a work around it so they can get informed consent from me with the homework that I assign [00:23:00] to them.
[00:23:01] Kathleen: And, um. Which I would rather it be done that way than me just spoonfeed them and tell them.
[00:23:08] Stephanie: Right. So your approach is very structured, uh, the six pillars that you came up with, is that part of your [00:23:15] framework for all clients or is it a tool you draw on in certain occasions?
[00:23:19] Kathleen: Yeah, I'm really gonna dial in deep on this from here on forward.
[00:23:23] Kathleen: I've been slowly progressing to the six pillars, but now it just for me makes total sense. [00:23:30] Uh, it's with the clients that want to do it, do this. So the six pillars is, is in my mind a piece of the mind, body, spirit, um, to look at themselves as [00:23:45] those three in each of the categories. And it's a slow walk because it's a lot to think about and it's a lot to change over.
[00:23:53] Kathleen: Um, and it gets them to buy in on their personal, um. Mental [00:24:00] wellness, if you will, through the six pillars, which means mind, body, and spirit. So what are these six pillars? Yes. Um, the six pillars for me is first one is sleep, [00:24:15] pillar two is water. 'cause not all water is the same. So we have a deep dive on that, um, exercise.
[00:24:22] Kathleen: And it's not the kind of exercise where it's intimidating, it's move, get moving because this [00:24:30] is what your body is, is wanting. So we have that conversation. The fourth pillar, which is really big and it takes a while, uh, to really get is food. There are foods that you need to absolutely stay away from [00:24:45] because our food system has been compromised.
[00:24:47] Kathleen: And so you do that didactic with your client and they completely. Eyes wide open. And they've been thinking the same thing too, but it all is putting it together for them. The [00:25:00] fifth one is a huge one in my mind, and that's the electromagnetic radiation. We are bombarded by EMFs. And I will tell you straight up that that is a, um, very big factor [00:25:15] for, um, the DSM five, anxiety, depression, bipolar, not sleeping, blah, blah, blah.
[00:25:21] Kathleen: So once we clean that up, which is a lot, um, then, and the food and the sleep and the water, then [00:25:30] you're gonna start, start feeling a whole lot better. And then the second, the sixth thing, and with the food, um, comes, it, it, you know. With anyways. And then the sixth one is all the manmade chemicals that are [00:25:45] everywhere and how to stay away from those, um, and how to clean up your household with all the chemicals that we're cleaning our house with.
[00:25:52] Kathleen: That is a huge piece of the puzzle. So you combine these six pillars and we have a lot to talk about because [00:26:00] we, I do integrate it with. How they're thinking, what they're thinking. Um, is this going, does this sound, does this resonate with you? If so, what piece? And if not, why not? And we just keep working [00:26:15] towards them, kind of having a buy-in on taking personal responsibility.
[00:26:19] Kathleen: And it's a lot about their environment and what they're subjected to once. And then also I'm a big believer in, because we can't, we don't get everything [00:26:30] from our food in terms of what we need. Um, I'm a big advocate of, uh, a very comprehensive supplement, um, re regimen that that is key on their mental [00:26:45] wellness.
[00:26:45] Kathleen: It's stunning, um, how, how big a deal that really is if you get on the right supplements and they're not all the same. And I'm not talking about fractionated nutrition. I'm talking about a full, comprehensive [00:27:00] nutritional, everyday supplementation because we can't get, we don't get everything from our food.
[00:27:05] Stephanie: So do you do a, an inventory, like a lifestyle inventory of these six pillars for your patients?
[00:27:11] Kathleen: I do, I do. We do a lifestyle and especially with the [00:27:15] food and what are you eating, what are you not eating? And this, it all correlates to the other six pillars too. Um, so it's, it's kind of fun, you know, and it makes sense to them and the light bulbs go off and that's really fun to [00:27:30] see.
[00:27:30] Kathleen: It's like taking that personal responsibility of like, you mean I can get well from this? Absolutely. And that's another thing too, is positive talk. You know, like. If you think you can't, you're, you're not gonna be able to, you know, [00:27:45] you, you can choose to be a victim of everything, or you can choose to, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna beat this and I'm gonna get better.
[00:27:52] Kathleen: And it's a powerful shift, um, that encourages clients to do as, as is [00:28:00] their best. And it's like a game. Once they're, once they're bought in, they just keep going and going and going, and they love it. So that's the fun part to see.
[00:28:10] Stephanie: I'm getting the impression your clients are kind of self-selecting, like something about the way that you [00:28:15] market yourself, the way you go through the informed consent process.
[00:28:17] Stephanie: By the time people commit to working with you, they're looking for this guidance. They're receptive to it.
[00:28:25] Kathleen: They are. And I think the last five years, um, people have really done a [00:28:30] deep dive on asking their own them themselves, what's happening here. They're not buying into stuff anymore. They're starting to be curious.
[00:28:40] Kathleen: And if you are curious, that is the, that is the key. [00:28:45] If you get a client who's curious about stuff, even though they've never heard of it before, that's just fun, right? Because you want that curiosity to be their personal. Energy. Right? And so once they have that, [00:29:00] then the sky's the limit. And we, again, we still talk about, you know, all the emotional, uh, issues, uh, work, life, you know, friendships, family, stuff like that.
[00:29:13] Kathleen: Um, and it just [00:29:15] works. It just works. Many of you listening to
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[00:30:03] Stephanie: You don't feel like, um, see, I, I'm, I'm playing devil's advocate with more of a psychodynamic approach here. Um, and I think, you know, on a personal level, I share your [00:30:15] interest in philosophy. I think. Professionally. I haven't done counseling in a, a while now, but, uh, one of the reasons that I felt it was important to make such a clear distinction between counseling and [00:30:30] coaching is because in coaching I do a lot of psychoeducation and I'm very directive, I'm structured.
[00:30:36] Stephanie: Um, I don't mind a certain amount of self-disclosure. As needed. I I, [00:30:45] to make a point, um, and that's really different from the way that I want to hold a frame and the role of therapist and I, I'm not sure I've said this several times on this podcast now, I'm not sure if I'll be able to go back to counseling because [00:31:00] of all the toothpaste that's come out of the metaphorical tube here.
[00:31:04] Stephanie: With putting so many of my personal views out into the worlds and how that changes the frame of therapy, whether it's, you know, the risk of a patient who were [00:31:15] to not know me as a public figure, the risk of how discovering my work could affect their sense of the therapeutic frame being held or their, their projection onto the therapist.
[00:31:27] Stephanie: Whether it's that or even whether it's [00:31:30] a patient choosing me because of my views that I've expressed in public, that still creates a. Dilemma for me in the sense that maybe they've [00:31:45] idealized me based on a few particular views that I hold and what happens if they later discover. I also have other views that they don't idealize or my views change, or in my role as therapist, I'm [00:32:00] not responding the way they think I ought to respond if I am the person they've made me out to be.
[00:32:04] Stephanie: So these are all these transference dilemmas that I have been exploring while taking a break from therapy thinking, is it possible [00:32:15] given how much of myself I've put out there into the universe as a podcaster, is it even possible to hold that frame? I find myself thinking with that psychodynamic frame in mind, the, the frame that I myself [00:32:30] abandoned in a sense saying, I can't hold this frame.
[00:32:32] Stephanie: I know I need this frame held for me when the roles are reversed. But that's where I'm thinking about, you know, the role of self-sabotage and the reason that we don't always do what we say we're gonna [00:32:45]
[00:32:45] Kathleen: do. You know, I keep going back to, I think that might be part of the, at least this is just my perception, not, not anybody else's, but it's just my perception that you've just categor, [00:33:00] you've just eloquently, um, um, how do you say it, Des uh, described.
[00:33:08] Kathleen: How we've been taught to think and be siloed. Oh, I gotta stay in the box because what if I'm outside [00:33:15] the box? What if I wrote a book? How would my clients feel? I've got all this content out on po. Let the client decide. They get to decide who they wanna see because of why, because of their why. Why did, why do my clients wanna talk to me?
[00:33:28] Kathleen: Because I'm gonna be [00:33:30] straight up with them and they know it and they're, they're starving for it. So, um, you know, I think that's part of the whole misconception of this is how therapists need to be and this is these, this is how therapists need [00:33:45] not to be. And I'm telling, I'm, I'm just saying straight up.
[00:33:48] Kathleen: I think our, our profession is starting to be, uh, calm, very. Diverse with different thought patterns than what we've been [00:34:00] told we must be. So I'm pretty much outside the matrix, outside the box, outside the silo. I wanna integrate as much information with other sources to give my client the best care [00:34:15] because they've picked me and they know why they've picked me.
[00:34:18] Kathleen: Now, therapy in the Greek word means change and also means that I get to confront and they don't have to buy it. But I'm giving them something to think about. [00:34:30] So, um, you know,
[00:34:33] Stephanie: I, it's just working now. I think we're having, I think this feels like a debate, but like a debate that, that we need to be having as a society.
[00:34:41] Stephanie: Yes. And I feel like we're representing Yes. Voices so much [00:34:45] bigger than our own voices by exploring different sides of this issue. And I noticed that the way that you framed. What I said was almost as if it's like an internalized limiting belief that I've adopted. But I wanna, I wanna make sure I'm [00:35:00] understanding you.
[00:35:01] Stephanie: Let, let me get this right. Do you think? Okay. So based on everything I said where I'm like, Hey, I've got 180 something episodes of my podcast out there, I've said a lot about myself, you know? Sure. Do you think someone like me who [00:35:15] has voiced so many personal opinions to the world should continue serving in the role of therapists?
[00:35:21] Stephanie: And if so, uh, how would you recommend that I deal with these, uh, potential transference dilemmas that could come up? [00:35:30]
[00:35:30] Kathleen: I'm just gonna keep it really simple. You've got so much talent stuff, you've got so much, um, out there. Why would that stop you? Clients would love to talk to you about that because you are [00:35:45] very informative.
[00:35:46] Kathleen: You know what's going on. It's appealing. You're not in the box anymore. There's nothing that's holding you back. Now if you're worried about transference and counter transference and all that kind of stuff. I've been doing this such a [00:36:00] for such a long time. I don't really care, honestly, like we're so caught up in what we've, again, about what we've been told to do and not to do what's bad and what's not.[00:36:15]
[00:36:15] Kathleen: Don't
[00:36:16] Stephanie: you think it's, don't you think it's therapeutically very relevant though? I, I, I guess I, I did have some experiences, I will say without, you know, I don't wanna share anything personal about anyone here, but I did have some experiences during the time that I was juggling all those roles of both [00:36:30] being a podcaster and seeing patients where, um, some patients did select me for my views mm-hmm.
[00:36:41] Stephanie: And then found themselves, uh, [00:36:45] unhappy with me when the person they made me out to be. Um, when, when there was some clash. And, and I think, I guess the, the power, I wanna acknowledge the power dynamic. 'cause I agree with a lot of what you're saying in terms of, yes, I do have talent and so that's [00:37:00] why, why I do it in the coaching and education world.
[00:37:03] Stephanie: But, um, sorry, I'm like, I'm losing my train of thought. But it's, it's, it's an important conversation for the 21st century. There was something I was gonna say about. [00:37:15] The transference dilemma? Oh, the power dynamic. I, I think that therapists have power in the counseling relationship because the patient is vulnerable.
[00:37:27] Stephanie: The therapist is often seen as an authority [00:37:30] figure. Um, the therapist knows a lot more about the patient than the patient knows about the therapist. So the pa, the therapist has a, a lot of power. And I think if you're a therapist and a public figure, then that [00:37:45] intensifies the, uh, the potential for clients to idealize, which can then also be part of a cycle that involves devaluation.
[00:37:53] Stephanie: And I think how much more damaging to a fragile psyche if, uh, [00:38:00] you know, there's a therapist who's idealized as, as some sort of. Wise loving authority figure. And then the patient experiences from their perspective, the therapist, having some sort of fall from grace by revealing something about themselves [00:38:15] that's very disconcerting for the the patient.
[00:38:19] Stephanie: Now, I'm not saying that there's not a good case for that to be worked out in therapy. I think those moments of rupture and repair can be really therapeutically beneficial. But that is [00:38:30] contingent on the, the patient returning to continue working it out. And that's not guaranteed because a patient could easily just fire a therapist at the moment that they feel disillusioned.
[00:38:41] Stephanie: And I think it's, it's that power dynamic in particular that I'm [00:38:45] really sensitive to where I don't want to. Um, I don't want to exploit my fame in a way that could potentially be damaging for people. It's not because I am idealizing myself, but it's because I recognize how much power I hold, like it or not, that a patient may [00:39:00] idealize me and could, you know, have a transference with me that mirrors the transference with a parent or someone very important in their life who might have hurt them.
[00:39:10] Kathleen: So, I'm gonna go back to codependency here for a minute. You don't have the [00:39:15] power to make your client think or do anything, but I think for me, one of the things that I think is important for me is as long as I know the rules of conduct, as per my state licensure and what I'm [00:39:30] expected to do and not to do, that's it.
[00:39:34] Kathleen: If I get to that situation where something is going awry, I'm gonna have that conversation with a client and let them decide. I mean, that's the whole reason why clients are coming to us [00:39:45] 'cause their thinking's not so good, or whatever's not so good. So, um, I try to be cognizant of, you know, what you just said, but I'm not gonna, it's not gonna keep me up at night, you know, and if there is something I am gonna, I'm gonna [00:40:00] refer out because it's not a good fit anymore.
[00:40:02] Kathleen: But I'm gonna do it with respect and love, of course. Um, but it's, it's a good thing to keep in check, but not something that I'm gonna worry about. I'm, I'm not gonna let [00:40:15] it worry me so much that I don't see people, you know, 'cause I'm gonna put them first. They're always first, but I'm gonna have good conversation with them.
[00:40:25] Kathleen: And I may say a couple of things that might ruffle their feathers, but [00:40:30] that's why they're coming.
[00:40:32] Stephanie: To have their feathers ruffled. Yes. Do you put that in your informed consent? Yes. May include ruffling of feathers?
[00:40:38] Kathleen: Well, I don't see it that way, but you know, therapy is about change and there's gonna be some things that, you know, [00:40:45] things are said or talked about in the the, in the therapy room if you will, that might ruffle your feathers and that's part of your healing process.
[00:40:55] Kathleen: If it's true, great. If it's not okay, we're gonna throw that out and [00:41:00] just keep going. And I've never had that problem, so it's hard for me to relate to what you said.
[00:41:05] Stephanie: It's 'cause you're in Texas surrounded by other Texans because you have such a thick skin and you've got such like a radiant like [00:41:15] bubbly energy of just no one messes with Texas.
[00:41:19] Stephanie: And I can feel like, like that gives strength to the people around you. And you're probably also surrounded with people who have a little bit more of that like ability to. Deal with it. I guess
[00:41:29] Kathleen: [00:41:30] that's a great, that's a great point. I think being in Texas helps, but you know, when you go through trials and tribulations of your own, and certainly I've gone through them, you do develop a thick spine and you're able to discern, okay, [00:41:45] do I really need to worry about that?
[00:41:46] Kathleen: Or do I need to worry about something else? Or do I need to worry at all and just be me? And that's the goal is, you know, we wanna have a therapeutic alliance with your, with our clients. Um, I'm going to be [00:42:00] authentic and I'm just gonna do it how I do it. Um, and I'm very cognizant of the client therapist relationship, but I'm not gonna let that keep me up at night.
[00:42:09] Stephanie: I'm gonna have to bookmark this interview to come back to if and when I get to a point in my life where I am [00:42:15] seriously considering, do I start seeing patients again? Because what's happened is that since I decided to pause on seeing patients a year and a half ago, I referred out all my patients just to focus on parent coaching and education.
[00:42:27] Stephanie: Since that time, my work has kept me [00:42:30] busy. I have had a study stream of, uh, coaching clients who need my help with the one particular issue that I focus on, ROGD parents. And, and I have a study stream of people in my course, and I launched the bot train on my course. So [00:42:45] all of that has just kept me busy, and I'm like, at some point, I mean, the, the point of the work I'm doing is to create a world where this issue doesn't need so much help anymore.
[00:42:53] Stephanie: And, you know, but I, and I've got, you know, probably 25 years of career ahead of me. So at some point I might need a [00:43:00] decision about going back to counseling and, and I will have all of these questions to grapple with again. So I'm gonna have to listen back to this conversation.
[00:43:07] Kathleen: I wanna love on you for a minute, Stephanie, because Thank you.
[00:43:10] Kathleen: You, you came. You came in my purview, and I don't even know [00:43:15] how, I don't even know if it was a year ago or two years ago or whatever. And we even talked about you on, on one of our podcasts early, early in the day of therapy disruptors. And it was all about the gender affirming care stuff. And you, I [00:43:30] saw a clip or something on, it's through the interweb or whatever, and you are pretty bold about pushing back and where you live.
[00:43:42] Kathleen: And I was like, [00:43:45] OMG, she's right in the epicenter. And she said that God protect her. And this was early on. So if you think that you don't have a backbone, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna tell you [00:44:00] straight up,
[00:44:00] Stephanie: oh no, I do. Stop.
[00:44:02] Kathleen: You do,
[00:44:03] Stephanie: I do have a backbone, but I also get terrible heart palpitations when I'm in situations
[00:44:08] Kathleen: like that.
[00:44:08] Kathleen: Well, here's the thing, when I heard what you said, and I think I even emailed you, I was like, I don't know who you are, [00:44:15] but I know you're in the epicenter, but I mean, my prayers are with you or whatever it was. Um, I'm telling you, I'm telling you right now, people want to see you right now in the area that you [00:44:30] live because of what you said two years ago.
[00:44:33] Kathleen: But because you don't see them, I don't know. I'm just thinking there's a lot of people who, who need to hear you and be with you and learn from you, and you [00:44:45] be the therapist for them so you can put them back together. Thank you. That's that's very, so don't lose heart and don't worry. People. I, it was like, God, I wish I could send her, but she's not seeing anybody.
[00:44:59] Kathleen: [00:45:00] Okay. So you're that it's that missed opportunity, but you know, your clients are just gonna benefit from you. Thank
[00:45:08] Stephanie: you.
[00:45:08] Kathleen: You're welcome.
[00:45:10] Stephanie: Um, well, I've had so many Christians praying for me the last few years that Christ [00:45:15] reached out and was like, yep, I'm bringing her over to my team. Mm-hmm. So I'm, I'm a Christian now.
[00:45:20] Stephanie: Um, and uh, and I think that's a good segue into this thing. I wanted to run by you and, and I'm gonna [00:45:30] frame this, first of all, actually, before I do, what are your thoughts on Jonathan Shedler?
[00:45:36] Kathleen: I don't know of him at all. Oh, okay. I tend to live in my own little bubble, so. Okay. No problem. So, yeah. So
[00:45:43] Stephanie: then this will be occurring without any [00:45:45] context?
[00:45:45] Stephanie: Yes. That's great. Yes. There's
[00:45:46] Kathleen: no
[00:45:46] Stephanie: context here. So, so I will say he is a psychodynamic therapist. Okay. And, um. A friend of mine said a year or two ago, Sher's gonna crack any day. Now [00:46:00] Shedler has yet to crack on speaking out against gender affirming care. But he says so many things that are so wise that you're like, come on man, just call it.
[00:46:09] Stephanie: Just call it. Just call it. Right? And then he keeps backing up and doing this sort of like I [00:46:15] am, I'm taking the middle road. I don't get into politics. Okay, so here's what he said. And I, you know, as I mentioned, I'm gonna start talking about the Christian faith on this podcast. One of the [00:46:30] questions I'm gonna explore since this is partly a podcast about therapy, is the intersection of Christianity and therapy.
[00:46:37] Stephanie: And before we started recording, I asked you, do you consider yourself a Christian counselor or a counselor who is Christian? And I clarified [00:46:45] saying that many counselors can be Christian in their personal life and even have that informed the way they practice. But I think when people hear Christian counselor, they hear about a particular type of counseling type called Christian counseling, and that has a certain set of [00:47:00] associations to them.
[00:47:00] Stephanie: And so you more identified as a counselor who is informed by her faith. And so in that context, I'm going to read sort of a long post from Jonathan Shedler on X that I came across just this [00:47:15] morning and wanted to respond to it, but held back because I had a better opportunity, which was to talk to you about it.
[00:47:21] Stephanie: So. Here's what Jonathan Shedler has to say. I'm really curious to hear your thoughts. He says, I'm coming around to the view that the central challenge of [00:47:30] what we might call the psychology Project is carving out a discipline of psychology and psychotherapy that is distinct from what we might call morality projects.
[00:47:39] Stephanie: It is only recently in human history that we have begun to think of mental and emotional suffering in psychological [00:47:45] terms rather than moral terms. The heart of the psychology project is the recognition that none of us fully know our own hearts and minds, and we can benefit from greater self understanding.
[00:47:57] Stephanie: But it's been an ongoing battle to claim and reclaim [00:48:00] the terrain of psychotherapy from the tides of moralizing that continually encroach and threaten to erode it away. Both Christian therapy and variants like conversion therapy [00:48:15] and social justice therapy. Are examples of encroachment. They retain the word therapy while claiming the field of psychotherapy as the province of moral education, this post isn't about the value of moral [00:48:30] education or whether I personally agree with Christian values, social justice values, or any other values.
[00:48:35] Stephanie: It's about the fact that the psychology project is something else and something different. It's the difference between helping patients know their own minds and discover answers that are right for them [00:48:45] and already having the right answers for the patient to adopt. We can think of the psychology project as an ongoing land reclamation effort amid the rising and falling tides of moralizing.
[00:48:56] Stephanie: In recent years, the tides have risen and crashing. Waves have [00:49:00] breached the sea walls. The threat to the psychology project doesn't just come from outside psychology. We have mental health professionals working to sabotage the psychology project from within. They can't wait to subordinate psychotherapy with its [00:49:15] emphasis on self understanding and the psychological freedom and agency that follows it to one or another.
[00:49:20] Stephanie: Moral project. Moral crusades take many forms. Psychology's, land reclamation project always precarious, has survived for more than a [00:49:30] century. Whether it will survive the current tides is an open question.
[00:49:36] Kathleen: Thoughts. Okay. So I'm just gonna be dumb. Okay. I have no idea what he's talking about. [00:49:45] Okay. Because it seems like, like you said before, he's taken the middle road. He's, he's saying stay in the middle, don't get involved. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know him enough to even [00:50:00] comment on that, but it feels like, and feelings are dumb, uh, that he's in that middle gray zone.
[00:50:10] Kathleen: That's where he prefers. Now,[00:50:15]
[00:50:15] Kathleen: I, I, I'm just gonna go out on the limb and say, I really think that, and I, this is probably contrary to what he's saying. The Psychology project is, is to me, a captured entity that [00:50:30] it only can do certain things. Again, it's that siloing of what psychology is supposed to be. Whoever made that up, what, what is it?
[00:50:39] Kathleen: Um, I don't think that Psychology Today [00:50:45] is being embraced by a lot of people. I think a lot of people, and I'm talking about future clients, they're not going to therapy anymore because they figured it out. They're, the psychology industry is not good. [00:51:00] Why is that? And people are trying to find people who can have a conversation about whatever they wanna have and not feel like they're judged or have to be pigeonholed in a corner.
[00:51:13] Kathleen: You know? [00:51:15] So when he talks about conversion therapy, I'm assuming he's talking about if somebody wants to cut off their body parts, that we can't convert 'em back to like being a boy or a girl. I don't know. Um, so I [00:51:30] think that, gosh, you know, there are certain truths that are true. There are certain facts that need to be remi, you know, embraced for psychology to just kind of go [00:51:45] on this like, oh, free to be you and me, kind of stuff isn't washing right for a lot of people.
[00:51:51] Kathleen: That's why you're seeing a lot of people leave the counseling profession and be a health coach or be a coach because they're [00:52:00] not in that. That psychology, uh, chasm anymore.
[00:52:05] Stephanie: I don't know. So I realize I have an advantage over you here because I can just pick up my phone and look at that quote and reread it and, and whereas I sprung it on you and just read it to you.
[00:52:14] Stephanie: Yes. [00:52:15] Right. So I, I apologize for the uh, no, you're good. But, but what are you thinking he's saying? So the thing is, I know what he is talking about when he, when he talks about social justice, morality encroaching on psychotherapy, I absolutely know what he is talking about there. Okay. Yes. And I, [00:52:30] I think because I, I understand a little bit about, you know, your worldview with your, everything you're doing with Anth and the podcast.
[00:52:38] Stephanie: I know that you were also part of this movement to defend psycho psychology and counseling from [00:52:45] the encroachment of woke social justice. Correct. Stuff. Um, and I mean, I don't, I mean, you said that you avoid certain social media and stuff like that, so I'm not sure how much you've seen of some of the things that drove me.[00:53:00]
[00:53:00] Stephanie: To question these things and drove me away from Facebook, by the way, like the things that were going on in the woke therapist, Facebook groups, the correct, the dog piles, the looking at everything through the lens of privilege and oppression, and who can I criticize for their privilege today? [00:53:15] And, you know, marginalized people suffer because this, that and the other.
[00:53:19] Stephanie: I mean, there's, there's a huge, and we talk about it a lot on this podcast, the encroachment of the social justice. But what Jonathan Shedler is doing here is he's saying that there's an equal and [00:53:30] opposite version of that on the opposite side of the political spectrum. And that I don't know what that looks like.
[00:53:36] Stephanie: And if there's anyone listening who feels like, you know what that looks like and you wanna come here and talk to me about it, I'd be interested in potentially having you [00:53:45] on as a guest. I mean, I do know that there are things that would violate ethical codes or things that are being done by people who are not licensed professionals, like for example.
[00:53:56] Stephanie: Uh, former guest Leighton shared her [00:54:00] Detransition story in two parts on this podcast, and she was put through some sort of Christian Gay conversion therapy type thing, but it wasn't with a licensed mental health professional. It was in the context of sort of a cult that was psychologically abusing people.
[00:54:14] Stephanie: [00:54:15] Um, it, it wasn't a licensed therapist, so, you know, I, I would hesitate to call that. Therapy of any kind. It was just psychologically abusive practices. Um, and also, yeah, what does he mean when he says conversion therapy? It really [00:54:30] frustrates me when I see him and other thought leaders in the psychology field using the term conversion therapy, as if there's any consensus on what we even mean by that right now.
[00:54:38] Stephanie: Like do you mean that in the way that the woke social justice people mean it, where you don't want therapists to try to [00:54:45] help people who claim to have distress about the sex of their body? Or do you mean that in more the classic sense of things like electroconvulsive therapy being used to try to shock homosexuality out of people?
[00:54:56] Stephanie: Like what do you even mean when you say conversion therapy? There's a big [00:55:00] question there, but he's, he's essentially saying that there is a whole side of the counseling profession. That is Christian and that is moralizing to patients in a way that's similar to how the social [00:55:15] justice people are moralizing to patients.
[00:55:17] Stephanie: I haven't seen it. I would like to understand if there is a valid criticism there. Um, but as I'm just beginning to learn about what the intersection of Christianity and psychotherapy might look [00:55:30] like, I, I'm skeptical that it looks like the way he's portraying it.
[00:55:35] Kathleen: I, I think there are, you know, two, two ends of the spectrum that maybe he's talking about that end, end up intersecting with one another.[00:55:45]
[00:55:46] Kathleen: Okay. So, you know, Christian therapy or some Christian therapists might be more, um, trying to convert somebody. Similar to how social [00:56:00] Justice warriors, you know, um, you know, are, have captured our profession, which that's why we started AMP too. It's like there's so many counselors that feel like they don't have a voice because our, our industry has been literally [00:56:15] hijacked in the last probably 10 years, but for sure since 2020 by design.
[00:56:22] Kathleen: So we're having this, this conversation, Stephanie, and I don't disagree with him if that's what he's talking about, but [00:56:30] here's where we're at with this. See? And so I think for counselors who want to help people, they've gotta figure out who their, um, who, their clientele, they're trying to, um, to [00:56:45] serve.
[00:56:45] Kathleen: 'cause we, we all can't serve all. So we find our niche and we build on that. And so, um. Not sure. I think, I think our profession, by his article, we have been captured. He doesn't know where [00:57:00] we're going with this, and I don't think many of us do. Um, so maybe that's his point.
[00:57:07] Stephanie: I'm trying to imagine this idea of a Christian therapist using therapy as a platform to try to convert.[00:57:15]
[00:57:15] Stephanie: And I'm, I'm wondering about the role of informed consent and therapist's faith. The
[00:57:22] Kathleen: more you say who you are on your website, that's your informed consent. And then you can also talk about it in the [00:57:30] 10 by 10 room as well. Um, but be mindful that you are also, um, a licensee in your state and you have protocol via your state statutes and your rule book.
[00:57:42] Kathleen: So if you stay. [00:57:45] In the state statutes and the rule book for of where you are licensed to practice, that really can help you a whole lot. And I think a lot of therapists don't pay attention to the state statutes and their rule book, which gets them in [00:58:00] trouble. So there are some states that you cannot have a conversation, um, about even when the client brings it up, that they're trying to figure out who they are, whether they're a boy or a girl or something else.
[00:58:14] Kathleen: There are some [00:58:15] states that, uh, restrict you from having that conversation. Look at the Supreme Court case with the child's case. You know, that is key of what the Supreme Court's gonna do. There were two therapists in Virginia who [00:58:30] the lp, their LPC board in Virginia, they sued them and won because they could, because they were restricting free speech in the talk therapy 10 by 10 room.
[00:58:42] Kathleen: When a client wanted to talk about their [00:58:45] gender or whatever it was. So things are happening in very many states that states are starting to push back and trying to, um, have therapists have true talk therapy [00:59:00] without the restriction for the client to make up their minds. And because they want to have, the client is wanting to have the conversation.
[00:59:08] Stephanie: And if you read those so-called conversion therapy bands, they just serve to [00:59:15] create a really chilling atmosphere. Uh, they do leave some gray area, you know, there, there are some people who take what they've learned about these conversion therapy bans, and then they slightly miss state and then, and then they'll, they'll get [00:59:30] argued with, right.
[00:59:30] Stephanie: So if you say that the state requires you to affirm that's not exactly correct. It there, it's not written in a state law. Thou shalt affirm only it, it's not like that. But if you, if you read the actual text [00:59:45] of the conversion therapy bands, it, it raises a more questions than answers and creates a chilling effect that most people don't wanna deal with.
[00:59:54] Stephanie: But that's some, it's an overlapping issue with the issue of faith. [01:00:00] Um, for some therapists, their decision to not work with that population and to steer clear of that issue might be driven by the principles of their faith. For others, it might be just common sense.
[01:00:13] Kathleen: When you infuse that, and [01:00:15] I, I don't wanna go past the article, but when you infuse that mindset into the Social Justice Warriors, what the colleges and the grad schools are teaching now, it makes for counselors to kind of not know what to do in [01:00:30] their private practices.
[01:00:31] Kathleen: And so they go, I don't do that. I don't specialize in that 'cause I don't wanna get pounced on.
[01:00:36] Stephanie: And unfortunately, do you know what most of those therapists end up doing? Instead they refer to a gender clinic.
[01:00:41] Kathleen: That's the only other option. See, [01:00:45] so this is where our, I mean, this is where our profession has been, uh, going and so.
[01:00:52] Kathleen: I mean he, I mean, he probably has every right to question it, which I don't disagree with that. But yeah, I think [01:01:00] he's saying, where are we going? I don't think anybody knows, to be honest with you.
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[01:02:04] Stephanie: Podcasting simplified. I do think that. A poor interpretation of what Shedler said could make it sound as though faith should have no [01:02:15] place in the counseling relationship and you were bringing up, you know, informed consent, the what if the patient wants. So I'm thinking of a situation in which a Christian patient selects a Christian counselor and what [01:02:30] c what Christian counseling might look like.
[01:02:32] Stephanie: And I wonder, I think, and I might be straw manning, Shedler a little bit here, I think I'm straw manning shedler when I represent him this way. But I'm pushing back on the straw man, which is to say that, you [01:02:45] know, who are you to define, um, Christian counseling as nothing but moralizing, right? Because I, I feel like that's flattening and painting over a potentially very rich field of exploration between patient and [01:03:00] therapist.
[01:03:00] Stephanie: Is he saying, and again, maybe I'm straw manning, but is he saying that there, um. That for faith to enter the therapy room, as you keep calling it the 10 by 10 office, um, that, that, [01:03:15] that means that the therapist is going to be scolding the client for their sins. I mean, that's kind of what he makes it sound like in a bad faith interpretation.
[01:03:23] Stephanie: I'd, I'd like to in interpret with, uh, a little bit more charity than that though, but I'm having a hard time. Can you help me? [01:03:30]
[01:03:30] Kathleen: Yeah. Well, I don't know if I can help you there, Steph, but I think that, you know, the, the Christian, the Christian therapist that I know would never do that. It's just from their point of view and their point of view mostly is I'm gonna [01:03:45] love this person and I, you know, God help me get, be wise on how I can best serve, uh, with the faith that I have and, and all that.
[01:03:55] Kathleen: I don't know any Christian, the, and I'm sure there are, I mean, I don't know, but I mean, I'm sure [01:04:00] there's, I. At least one Christian therapist that is gonna, you know, do the whole, you know, holy brimstone, fire and dragons and stuff like that. Which dragons Okay, problem. There's dragons in
[01:04:12] Stephanie: hell too. Yikes.
[01:04:13] Kathleen: There's, there's a, that's a [01:04:15] problem too, but you know, you wanna do you to be a therapist these days, you just have to have good taste. Honor your rule, rule book. 'cause we are controlled by the state. Know your state statutes know what you are allowed to do and what you're not [01:04:30] allowed to do. And the things that I do, my state allows it, and I know where the line is.
[01:04:38] Kathleen: Right. Um, and having good referrals for clients, if they want a [01:04:45] second opinion, you know, I'm going to, I'm gonna have those on, on demand, you know, I've got them for them so they can have a second client, a second opinion or a third opinion. I'm not, I'm, I totally welcome that. And then finding other [01:05:00] professionals who will work side by side with you is key.
[01:05:04] Kathleen: Our profession isn't doing that. We just defer it to the psychiatrist. You know, I, I think we need to, again, we need to marry those things [01:05:15] that absolutely categorically work on the whole mind, body, spirit, um, platform of anybody who comes in the front door and they've picked you because they want you, [01:05:30]
[01:05:30] Stephanie: they've picked you.
[01:05:31] Stephanie: I'm gonna put in a plug for Christian counseling, which is a bold thing for me to do because I'm a new Christian. And I wouldn't say that I've experienced Christian counseling, particularly like I chose [01:05:45] a therapist who was Christian for many reasons. I also made sure he was psychodynamic and several other things, right.
[01:05:50] Stephanie: But, but I wanna put in a plug here. For the value of a faith-based understanding in the [01:06:00] counseling room. I think without Christian teachings, uh, one common fallacy in in our thinking that tends to show up a lot in [01:06:15] counseling is this idea that all of your problems are because of trauma, um, and, and your wounds.
[01:06:25] Stephanie: And, and that that narrative can allow, it can [01:06:30] allow for a really appealing fantasy, which is I would be innocent, blameless, and perfect if it weren't for the way that my parents failed me, the way that, you know, all these bad things happened to me. Okay. [01:06:45] And while it can be healing to imagine. What parts of me would've flourished better under more optimal conditions, um, and to grieve the things that happened.
[01:06:59] Stephanie: While that [01:07:00] can absolutely play a role in healing, I think, um, the Christian understanding of sin, I think is very grounding in reality for me personally. Um, [01:07:15] that, uh, that no, we're all, we're all born, we're, we're born this way into a fallen world. And I remember, okay, I, I'm, I don't know. I am, I'm new at this, but I might be in some ways more Christian [01:07:30] than my Christian counselor because I'll just tell you about a little moment in therapy where, um, he described sin as our wounds, and I was like, no.
[01:07:43] Stephanie: That doesn't run our sin [01:07:45] isn't just our woundedness. And I, I found myself giving an example, something I would hesitate to share here, but I will say something from my childhood that I felt guilty about where I was the doer of the bad [01:08:00] deed. And there are a lot of things from my childhood where I was not the doer of the bad deed, and I was indeed wounded and I was a blameless victim in that situation.
[01:08:09] Stephanie: But I still have a memory of a time that I did something and that was me violating my conscience. That was me [01:08:15] being selfish and hurting another living being. And I don't think that if my childhood had been better, that that impulse would've been completely gone from me. I don't think I, I was just a natural [01:08:30] little angel who the world just happened to and got corrupted.
[01:08:32] Stephanie: Right? So for me, I think that it's almost like. It's hard to live without the Christian faith and teachings because, uh, then, then [01:08:45] we have to hold onto this kind of crazy fantasy of our own perfection, and then we have to constantly defend that image. Um, and this is one of the things that I got so tired of that drove me to the Christian faith as being in the spotlight, having all these [01:09:00] people criticizing me all the time.
[01:09:02] Stephanie: I felt like, gosh, I'm so tired of defending my own ego. Like, I, like, I don't want to, uh, accept their attacks. Like, these are people being really [01:09:15] needlessly, very cruel and taking out things on me that have more to do with them than me. I am being persecuted, I'm being scapegoated here. You know, like, but the thing is like, people treating me like I'm on some pedestal that needs to be cut down so they can smash my image to [01:09:30] pieces.
[01:09:30] Stephanie: That whole dynamic being on the receiving end of that, I was like, I, I, I don't actually wanna put energy into being like, no, no, no, I'm a good person. Like I don't. I don't wanna think about myself so much. Like I actually would rather live in a world surrounded by people who are [01:09:45] like, yeah, no, we're all fallen, we're all, we're all sinners.
[01:09:47] Stephanie: But it's not, it's not our job to persecute each other. And I never had any interpersonal problems with Christians, not since childhood, not since that one mean girl in elementary school whose father was a preacher who told me I was going to hell. Besides that one [01:10:00] mean girl in elementary school have never had an interpersonal problem with a Christian.
[01:10:03] Stephanie: Everyone who has done this to me, this persecuting has either been atheist, agnostic. I think there are a few people who happen to be culturally Jewish in that mix. And nothing against any Jewish people. [01:10:15] I'm just looking at the demographics of the people who have done this to me. And it's one of the things that drove me to the faith.
[01:10:21] Stephanie: And so I think in counseling. If you're Christian and you're choosing that in your counseling relationship, then [01:10:30] you, you, you get the liberation of saying, actually, I don't need to defend a narcissistic image of myself as being perfect. I don't need that. Um, and another thing that I think is so healing [01:10:45] about the Christian faith is that for those of us with obsessive compulsive tendencies, um, I'm not gonna say disorder, not gonna say personality.
[01:10:55] Stephanie: Okay. Just tendencies. Good, good for you. Those of us with our [01:11:00] tendencies, um, um,
[01:11:06] Stephanie: any foray into religion besides the Christian faith? Will make us obsessive compulsive [01:11:15] nutcases. And I know this because I experimented with religion, uh, like when I was like 19 to 23 or so, I experimented with Hinduism and there without grace, without God's grace, without God [01:11:30] having sent Jesus to redeem us.
[01:11:32] Stephanie: Um, there, there is no limit to the extent to which you can decide to, to ritualize every aspect of your life in trying to please God, trying to live your life in this fallen broken world somehow [01:11:45] in the exact way that God would want you to live it down to. I mean, I started reading ion Hershey Ali's biography of growing up Muslim in Africa.
[01:11:54] Stephanie: And I mean, it was down to what position you sleep in that they were being told, you know, [01:12:00] you have to do it a certain way to please God. And, and I think anyone with that, um, tendency in any other religious setting is at risk of developing. Basically obsessive compulsive personality disorder, you know, and no shade on [01:12:15] anyone for choosing their particular set of beliefs.
[01:12:16] Stephanie: I'm just saying based on my own kind of obsessive temperament, that grace is the remedy that I, I need Jesus in my life for that reason alone. So that, that's, that's my plug for, for a faith-based approach [01:12:30] to counseling for those who are engaging in it with fully informed consent.
[01:12:34] Kathleen: Yeah, and if you wanna ask your, your, the therapist, a couple questions about that, have that little consult before you, you know, sign up for them.
[01:12:43] Kathleen: But, you know, it's, [01:12:45] you know, it's all to me, my faith walk is all about love, how I can serve others. I live in gr by grace. I help as many as I can. I know I can't help, can't save 'em all, and that's [01:13:00] okay. But I certainly can pray for them and, um, and love what I do and, and do it from the heart, not from the head.
[01:13:08] Kathleen: That's nice and
[01:13:09] Stephanie: succinct.
[01:13:10] Kathleen: Yeah. So welcome. Thank you. [01:13:15] But I don't, I don't, I do think now I'm gonna go out. I obviously, I mean, and I've experienced this recently. The, some of the work that I do with my clients have been, um, [01:13:30] confronted by Christian therapists saying that, um, it's mystic, right? And so you're gonna get that sect, um, and you just have to kinda weather through it and just [01:13:45] go, you know, that that's okay.
[01:13:46] Kathleen: That they think that what I do is kind of woo woo, but I don't think it is a cult. Well, it's, it's not scriptural. And I'm like, okay, okay. So there are some [01:14:00] Christians that won't buy into. The whole mind, body, spirit, and particularly in the area of frequency work that I do, which has been very powerful [01:14:15] for my clients.
[01:14:15] Kathleen: I mean, I can't even believe, I can't begin to tell you how amazing it's been, but you know, that's again, that's, we weren't taught that in grad school and so therefore it's gotta be kind of satanic [01:14:30] or it's gotta be mystic or it's gotta be crystal like kind of stuff. And I'm like, I don't think so.
[01:14:36] Stephanie: When, okay, when you say
[01:14:37] Kathleen: frequency,
[01:14:37] Stephanie: you're
[01:14:38] Kathleen: talking about hurts.
[01:14:40] Kathleen: I'm talking about hurts. Um, and, and other different kinds of frequency. Wor, I [01:14:45] mean, we're all frequency beings, you know, we all have a certain frequency, energy, and vibration. And so that kind of work is in our everyday world. We just have never been taught it correctly. [01:15:00] So, you know. You know, I get a little pushback there, but That's okay.
[01:15:06] Kathleen: You know, I, I've got enough of a, a backbone that it's like, you know, I, I understand why, I understand what, where they're coming from and I get [01:15:15] it.
[01:15:15] Stephanie: Things like that. They, they sound new age woowoo and tell you learn about things like brainwave frequencies that can be measured using like QEEG and the fact that, um, you know, two people in the same room, [01:15:30] their heart rhythms will affect each other.
[01:15:31] Stephanie: I mean, that stuff like, yeah. It, it's, it's not woo woo, it is confirmable by science. And, and we know that, you know, certain, like, I, I'm just gonna put in a plug without knowing what exactly [01:15:45] you do, just as, as a lay person, um, there are certain hurts, frequencies that you can listen to that have healing effects on the body through vibration and, and what that does in your cells.
[01:15:55] Stephanie: That's not actually controversial. Like, it's not, it's it,
[01:15:58] Kathleen: it's not. But [01:16:00] if, again, if we're not, you know, it's that that piece of science has been walled off and buried that when somebody's doing it, it just is so counterintuitive with what we've been thought to believe as being [01:16:15] the traditional type of.
[01:16:17] Kathleen: Treatment. Right. So, you know, I mean, I, I
[01:16:20] Stephanie: don't think any of these things are like standalone treatments, but they certainly can't hurt like I should be doing. No. Yes. I should be humming 10 minutes a day. It's great for your vagus nerve. [01:16:30] Yes, yes. That's, that's a vibration in my face. It is a
[01:16:32] Kathleen: vibration and it's an energy and, and all that kind of stuff.
[01:16:35] Kathleen: There's tons to learn from, but, you know, and that's what makes kind of therapy. I, I think therapists, I think there's a, a sect [01:16:45] of us, if you will, that are really going into more of a holistic mind-body, spirit modality. Why shouldn't we should have been doing that a long time ago. But I think the last five years has really ramped [01:17:00] this awareness up.
[01:17:02] Kathleen: And if we're staying on the traditional side, it makes it really hard to belong. Right. It's like the odd man out. So, you know, that's, that's another thing that, you know, therapists get to experiment with that. I mean, there's even [01:17:15] certifications for, for instance, certification, uh, integrative mental health professional.
[01:17:19] Kathleen: Okay, that's out there now. You can't put the genie back in that bottle and then you can just run with it. So, um, you know, it's, it's interesting. We're living in a day in [01:17:30] time where I think professionals, you know, are getting, thinking about their souls, but they're thinking about, well, what else is there?
[01:17:38] Kathleen: And certainly this is the time to capture it because it's out of the, it's out of the [01:17:45] bottle and it can't be pushed back in. And we get to, you get to decide as a therapist how you wanna do this. Now your clients are, are there, they're looking for you. I cannot begin to tell you how many clients have, have said, I've looked high and low and [01:18:00] this is what I want and there's nobody else.
[01:18:02] Kathleen: And I said, I know, but we're getting, we're, we're getting there. You know, but, um, 'cause they wanna have the conversation. So don't underestimate the power of what people are looking for. You get to be outside that [01:18:15] silo now, and you get to bridge the gap on the people that you wanna stay with, hang with, refer to work with, and all that kind of stuff.
[01:18:22] Kathleen: It's really fun.
[01:18:24] Stephanie: Well, I think that your message will be emboldening for many listeners. I do [01:18:30] hear frequently from people who their hearts and minds are in the right place. They're thinking clearly about these issues. They're, they're good people. Um, and they're lacking that element of courage and faith that I hear [01:18:45] you bringing to the conversation.
[01:18:46] Stephanie: So I hope that this lands in their earbuds.
[01:18:49] Kathleen: Me too. And Stephanie, don't underestimate the power of what you've done, that it can, you can go back in, into that room of yours [01:19:00] and be such a blessing to those clients in your area that are looking for you right now. That's what was stunning to me two years ago when I heard whatever you said, I can't even remember, but I was like, oh my gosh.
[01:19:14] Kathleen: She's in the epicenter [01:19:15] of the universe. And like, and I know there's people who are wanting to talk to people like you there, you know, so you're a blessing. And don't be, uh, don't be a secret.
[01:19:27] Stephanie: Thank you. Because you have so much
[01:19:28] Kathleen: to give. I'm far from a [01:19:30] secret.
[01:19:31] Stephanie: Um, if I was a, well, the fact that you're not seeing clients right now.
[01:19:34] Stephanie: You, you are, you, are you So, yeah. I'm not seeing patients. I have a full schedule of coaching clients. Good. Yeah. I've, I've fully committed to [01:19:45] working with parents of ROGD youth. I have my course for them, ROGD, repair. I trained in AI on that course repair bot, and I, you know. Good. Thank I, I have to thank God for this, [01:20:00] that, uh, throughout my life actually, there's been a pretty consistent pattern that has kept me taken care of where, um, I always have just the right number of people coming to me, like it's good.
[01:20:12] Stephanie: So, um, [01:20:15] sometimes too many. So, and, and I have, I have an illness and I have a family. Yeah. And, um, I tend to fall behind on just admin, upkeep, organizing my life. Yeah. When I get as busy as I have been. [01:20:30] So, you know, it's the, the question really is like, if, if my, my work is aimed toward the resolution of this issue.
[01:20:37] Stephanie: I am trying to bring about a world in which this is not an issue that people are struggling with anymore. And so at that point in [01:20:45] time, uh, when, when there are fewer people in need of the coaching and education I provide on this issue, then. Then I will revisit this conversation and probably give you a call at that point.
[01:20:58] Kathleen: No problem. You're, [01:21:00] you're, you're doing amazing things, Stephanie. So
[01:21:02] Stephanie: thanks, Kathy. All good,
[01:21:04] Kathleen: all good. You know, one of the things to think about too, about the, the art, the article you read from, I can't remember his name right now. Sch Yes. Is, I hate to say [01:21:15] this, but I'm gonna be bold. I have to remember, and I don't know what anybody else thinks, but to me what I have to remember, our field created this mess that we're in.[01:21:30]
[01:21:31] Kathleen: They created this social in, you know, justice Warriors. They created this gender affirming care nightmare that people and their families are just being blown up by. I have to remember, my [01:21:45] profession did this to themselves. That's worrisome for me. So, um. You know, I'm stepping outside the silo because I don't wanna be a part of something that, that [01:22:00] has been tearing people up when we were trained to build each other up and actually heal them.
[01:22:08] Kathleen: It's not healing anymore. It's more divisive and destructive than I've ever seen before. And we really have to [01:22:15] embrace that concept of our profession did this to people.
[01:22:20] Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I've just met so many people that are like, I don't even trust therapists, but I would talk to you for coaching on this issue.
[01:22:29] Stephanie: Yes. [01:22:30] Um, yep. You just made my
[01:22:32] Kathleen: point because that's so true. A lot of counselors who are of beautiful minds are thinking about getting outside the counseling profession because people don't trust the profession anymore and they have every reason [01:22:45] to be not trusting of us. We screwed them over so bad. And even the good therapists are in the same pool.
[01:22:54] Kathleen: I'm not in the same pool, but I am in the same pool. You know, we've seen that here. [01:23:00] People are dialing down and they're asking some hard questions before they walk into the door.
[01:23:05] Stephanie: Well, I did wanna circle back to amp. Um, this conversation is a, a soft launch of [01:23:15] our, our little partnership. I am gonna run a few ads for you guys in future episodes, um, to help the therapists and the audience know that this is an organization that they can join.
[01:23:25] Stephanie: You have an annual conference that therapists can attend, so let's, let's do [01:23:30] our little plug for that. Where can people go to learn more about amp?
[01:23:33] Kathleen: Yes, we'd love for you to look at our website. It is called the Association for Mental Health professionals.org. And there's a whole bunch of stuff to read.
[01:23:43] Kathleen: We've got a lot of [01:23:45] stuff in our, uh, library, including a link to our Therapy Disruptors podcast. You can read about our conference that's coming up in 2026, so save the date October 1st through the third here in Dallas. DFW [01:24:00] area and, uh, our, um, speaker lineup is, uh, looking pretty good.
[01:24:05] Stephanie: Okay. And then if people wanna hear more of your voice, they can find the Therapy Disruptors podcast on their platform of choice.
[01:24:11] Stephanie: Correct. And finally, [01:24:15] um, what was the other thing? Oh, yeah, where can people find you?
[01:24:19] Kathleen: I'm, uh, at, you can find me on the association page, but you can also look and see what our, our, our group counseling program does. And, uh, it is called life tree [01:24:30] counseling.com.
[01:24:32] Stephanie: Okay. And I will mention one thing I'm gonna mention in every episode until this issue is resolved.
[01:24:37] Stephanie: I am working on resolving it, but, uh, I've been, um, for those who haven't heard me say this yet, Spotify has been a [01:24:45] huge thorn in my side lately. Uhoh. Have you guys ever had episodes removed from Spotify because of music?
[01:24:51] Kathleen: No. 'cause we have our own.
[01:24:53] Stephanie: Okay, so I have a song I'm licensed to use. Yes. Spotify keeps removing episodes in my podcast anyway.
[01:24:59] Stephanie: Uh [01:25:00] oh. Yeah. So, um, just to anyone who normally listens on Spotify, look at my podcasts page on Spotify, look at the numbers, see if any numbers are missing. There should be episodes coming out. This is for [01:25:15] listeners. Every week. There should be a new episode every Monday. And if you look back, all the numbers should be in order.
[01:25:20] Stephanie: If there's a number missing or if there's not an episode for the current week, that means Spotify removed that episode because it contains a theme song I'm licensed to use [01:25:30] and they're not. Resolving it and there being a pain in the butt. And so, boo Spotify, I am mad at you right now. And so if you support this podcast and you love my theme song like I do, I really love my theme song.
[01:25:42] Stephanie: Um, please go and make sure you're [01:25:45] subscribed on YouTube or some other podcast platform in order to support me. And I will, uh, I will let people know when this issue is resolved. I do have people trying to help me get this resolved, but it's not people at Spotify, it's people. Yeah. Outside of Spotify [01:26:00] trying to help me resolve my issue with Spotify.
[01:26:01] Stephanie: So I just meant I, I needed to make sure I me mention this on every episode until it's resolved. Good luck. Luck to you. Thanks for putting up with that, Kathleen. Okay, no problem. Kathleen Mills, such a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me.
[01:26:13] Kathleen: You're very welcome, Stephanie. A pleasure. [01:26:15]
[01:26:15] Stephanie: Thank you for listening to you Must Be some kind of Therapist.
[01:26:20] Stephanie: If you enjoyed this episode. Kindly take a moment to rate, review, share or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please [01:26:30] remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey Rero for this awesome theme song, half Awake and to Pods by Nick for production.
[01:26:42] Stephanie: For help navigating the impact of the gender [01:26:45] craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD, repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show plus how to get in touch with me can all be found in the notes and links below [01:27:00] Rain or shine. I hope you'll step outside to breathe the air today in the words of Max Airman.
[01:27:07] Stephanie: With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:27:15] [01:27:30] [01:27:45] world.