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More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Transcript:
Well, I'm excited to bring into the podcast my friend and I just readily admit this is my friend Ryan Barnett, who serves as a pastor in Waco. He's at the global Methodist Church there, Waco, which is a home of the Baylor, bears Ryan welcome to the podcast.
Ryan Barnett: Thanks, Andy. It's good to see you, man, grateful to have the opportunity to sit down and and visit with you. I'll just also, since we're at many things freely admit I you're somebody that I really admire, and appreciative of all you're doing at Wbs and and watching all of that take off so. And I and I love your podcast, so how about thanks?
Andy Miller III: Well, hey, man, I don't often get that sort of love right at the beginning, but I'll take it. I'll take it for sure.
Ryan Barnett: Empty right.
Andy Miller III: Didn't say that, but you said it, so I appreciate it.
Ryan Barnett: Well, I'll also admit, though, that like a lot of times like it, it's up here, and I'm really having to like climb a ladder to stick with you guys.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, right.
Ryan Barnett: You know, included.
Andy Miller III: Well, thanks for telling me that. And when that's the case, if we want I I maybe I'm feeling the same way. Who knows in those moments. But I we do. I do want to take the conversation to a deeper level. And like, when we're talking about things like what we're going to discuss today. I think that's important. We're talking about theology, maybe, is people go back and they listen again. I don't recommend that you listen at point 5 speed, because I do sound like I'm a drunk at the when you do that, so don't listen at that speed.
Andy Miller III: but also just to put my cards on the table. Ryan and I went to Seminary together. It's a couple of years ahead of me, so he's probably a couple of years old, and me just want to throw that out there, too. But I was the student body president of the seminary at that point. So we we interacted a little bit, but more so now, after the the global Methodist church has emerged, which has been one of the blessings, is to get connected with new groups of people across this movement.
Ryan Barnett: Well, you know India, you know. Yeah, we I mean, we knew each other a little back then, but you went into Salvation Army I came to Texas in the Methodist Church united.
Ryan Barnett: But what was great, and and I love this about you is, you know, we were hosting an event here at the new Wesley House of studies at at Truett, Baylor University, and we put out an invitation to every head of every seminary that was like us, recommended by the global Methodist Church for pursuing ministry in the global Methodist Church. And you and you came.
Ryan Barnett: you came, and a few others did. Because you know, for us. And I think this is for you, too, which is why part of this is, you know, we all want to live together. The water comes in, all the ships are rising, and we can learn and grow together. Then we're much better off. And so I appreciated that it was good to reconnect with you. At that event. What about a year ago.
Andy Miller III: That's right. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks for saying that. Yeah, we're certainly glad to work with other people trying to accomplish the same things as we serve the Church. And particularly, you know, global Methodist church has amazing opportunities. But what I'm finding is interesting, that we have all kinds of opportunities to serve other denominations with a similar program. Wbs.
Andy Miller III: we have dozens and dozens of denominations represented. But it's this kind. It's the same curricular content that's at the foundation of it. So yeah, I, that's what brings us together. I'm thankful for it, and maybe we'll hear a little about the work even across this interview what you're doing at Truett, how God's led you to interact in that environment. So I'm hopeful. Okay, I'm gonna get going. I think you and I could just
Andy Miller III: chat for a long time.
Andy Miller III: so my 1st question is is, I've my 1st 2 questions are timed. Okay? So yeah, I'm going to give you 2 min, so give us 2 min, a 2 min version of how, Ryan you came to know Christ.
Ryan Barnett: 2, 2 min to encapsulate a 48 year lifetime. That's right, that's right. That's really the answer. Right? I was fortunate and blessed to be raised in a household of faith, not just my parents, but my parents, parents, and my parents, parents, my parents, parents. So long long line of Methodist Christians.
Ryan Barnett: And so you know, my relationship with Christ was prayed into me by a mother and father and grandparents and great grandparents.
Ryan Barnett: And so for me, I think I would tell you I became the Christian I am today at at these kind of milestone moments that I think many people will have you know. I can remember kneeling down at 12 years old, at Friendswood Methodist Church, and the pastor came and and confirmed me, and
Ryan Barnett: I got my very 1st red letter Bible, which was so great it was like, Oh, I can just read the red words, and that's all I read, you know, like Oh, cliff notes
Ryan Barnett: And but I mean, what I'll say is, I obviously now know way more about God and doctrine, theology, Christianity following Christ than I did back then. But I can tell you
Ryan Barnett: a hundred percent of my 12 year old self was was all in for as much as a 12 year old self can be
Ryan Barnett: and then again, in college, when I was trying to figure it out, and my faith was making its way from being a head faith to a heart. Faith, I had an experience of an awakening with the Holy Spirit. I I encountered my 1st Methodist who lived out of the Numa, you know, like a past who lived out of the Numa, and she was so different than kind of the Christa center, Christocentric intellectual Methodism that I had gravitated to. I won't say that was all that was offered, but it's what I had gravitated to.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Barnett: It's like, Oh.
Ryan Barnett: this is like more than intellectual assent. Yeah, this is a life, a living, breathing faith that dictates how I speak, how I act, how I use my resources, what I do with my life.
Ryan Barnett: and that really shifted the trajectory for me. So you know. Ha!
Ryan Barnett: There was a short time, and I'll I'll wrap up. There was a short time
Ryan Barnett: when I was 1st kind of coming into an evangelical Wesleyan stream. I was.
Ryan Barnett: It's almost embarrassing. I was jealous of people who would say things like, Oh, I was hog tied in a prison cell, and.
Andy Miller III: You know? Yeah.
Ryan Barnett: And Jesus. I walked in, and I turned my whole life around.
Ryan Barnett: And I was like, I want a testimony like that.
Ryan Barnett: because it just seemed so in, you know. But as I really began to think back about my own testimony of my walk in faith in Christ.
Ryan Barnett: it it's to me equally powerful, that there's never been a day, that Christ was not walking alongside me, and that He has been graceful enough
Ryan Barnett: to let me
Ryan Barnett: go deeper into my understanding of his presence and grace as the years have rolled by, because even for the guy hog tied in the prison cell, the same was true for him.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!
Ryan Barnett: Walking beside him, too. So I I'm a very Methodist Christian in that. In that kind of sanctifying sense.
Andy Miller III: That's good. Now I I'm not as good as a presidential debate platform. I did. I did let you go 3 min and 10 seconds, so I'm sorry, but I couldn't stop you. I could not stop. That was too good, too helpful.
Ryan Barnett: You had a phone actually going.
Andy Miller III: Oh, I know.
Ryan Barnett: And I thought you were just like hyperbole.
Andy Miller III: Oh, I'm sorry!
Ryan Barnett: I'm a pastor.
Andy Miller III: My legalist.
Ryan Barnett: In minutes.
Andy Miller III: Hey? I'm timing everybody. Maybe I need to put up on the screen, not just you and I and I have a few of the other candidates have gone over as well. And I just I just wanted the great thing. Actually, Ryan, this is, it's it is kind of silly that I use a timer. I just want to say that because, like the great thing as I've interacted with all all the 9 candidates is like, if I nobody was going to come and say you gave Ryan one extra minute.
Andy Miller III: I mean, everybody is from my perspective, and I'll let you address this. You all are communicating. You're praying together. This is coming, this is there. There?
Andy Miller III: I didn't want to have 3 different 3 people interview at one time, because I didn't want it to appear like a debate. Yeah, it means more work for me. But at the same time you guys are kind of coming from a shared foundation. Tell us a little bit about that.
Ryan Barnett: Yeah. Well, 1st of all, I think I think I think you're wrong in the sense. Somebody would have noted that you gave different time and said something about it, but you were right in that. It wouldn't be any of the other 8.
Andy Miller III: Right, right.
Ryan Barnett: You know, all of this is new. It's a first.st And I, I feel like this is really important in this moment of our movement of the global Methodist church. We have to keep reminding ourselves of that. We've never done this. Yeah. So
Ryan Barnett: there's no way we've done it. There's no right way. There, you know, there's no I mean, there are wrong ways, but it's not like there's like one way that we have to do this. And so we're feeling it out.
Ryan Barnett: We, in addition to never having done it before. Look, we don't even know if the model of the epitome.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Ryan Barnett: Which we've been nominated is going to be voted, in my sense is, it's 50, 50, and you pick them. And what's great is, even as one of the candidates on this Tlc side.
Ryan Barnett: I think both are tremendous and.
Andy Miller III: Sure.
Ryan Barnett: Value, and we can't lose like
Ryan Barnett: I'm a delegate. I plan to listen to the conversation, see what comes out of committee, and then decide how I'm voting. Yes, right, all of that. To say what we did do was have the opportunity to come together, and there was definite agreement.
Ryan Barnett: No one wants a campaign.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Ryan Barnett: One wants to be seen as like grasping
Ryan Barnett: at something and that we wanted to support each other in prayer in our families. You know there's no way that the church elevates people like this without spiritual attack coming along.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Ryan Barnett: And so, yeah, we do. We get together at 7, 15 every Thursday morning. I don't know if I'm supposed to tell that, but is on Zoom, so you know you can't like.
Andy Miller III: Barge into the meeting.
Ryan Barnett: Right? Right? And you know. So I and we meet at 7 15 because I was like, Hey, guys, I dropped my kid off at the bus at 7, and they're like we can move it to 7 15. I mean, it's just like it's cool. It's a super, cool group of people, and I've known most of them for like 20 years.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Ryan Barnett: There's a few, I'm you know, just getting to know. But
Ryan Barnett: and we we check in. How's your soul? How's your family? How can we pray what's going on, and and we pray, and we pray for each other, and we pray for the conference and for what comes. And
Ryan Barnett: yeah, it's, it's, it's a different, it's it's not necessarily what I would have expected, and it and that part has been that part's been better than I could have imagined.
Andy Miller III: I I think I heard that Kamala Harris and Donald Trump are doing the same thing at 8 8. No, no, okay. So
Andy Miller III: no comparison at all. No comparison at all. All right. So next question
Andy Miller III: I am timing, I'm sorry to say, 3 min, 3 min.
Ryan Barnett: I'm gonna watch my clock over my shoulder.
Andy Miller III: Got you, I'll be able to hold it up
Andy Miller III: 3 min overview of what makes a Wesley and Christian, a Wesley and Christian go.
Ryan Barnett: Like.
Andy Miller III: I can. I can refer. I'll I'll pause.
Ryan Barnett: No, no, it's good. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: What what I mean at this moment, and you ended at, say, like, I'm a very Methodist.
Ryan Barnett: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Focused person like this is about part of who I am. But well, what is and what is it that needs to be maintained? And being a Wesley and Christian.
Ryan Barnett: No, I was. I was. Gonna I was gonna try to come up with a joke like, you know, a Methodist Christian. Someone's gonna be in heaven, but not surprised that other people are there some something like that?
Ryan Barnett: if I could be more specific about what my experience of being a global Methodist is which I think we fit within the broad stream of the Wesleyan Wesleyan holiness tradition. But.
Andy Miller III: Glad to hear you say that.
Ryan Barnett: I think we are a people who recognize that truth and grace must be both held in equal measure, and that does not mean 50% and 50%. It means a hundred percent and 100%.
Ryan Barnett: I think we are a people who believe that our theology and doctrines are right and good that they represent
Ryan Barnett: one of, if not, I mean, obviously, I think it's the best way of understanding the dynamic relationship between God and humanity and creation. But we're not so arrogant as to think that ours is the only way, or that we don't probably have some things wrong. I mean, I teach in my church like, look
Ryan Barnett: I I know we have things that are wrong because we're human. And I wanna stay humble enough that as we see what those are we can adapt.
Ryan Barnett: But at the same time, if we knew what we were wrong and we'd change it. This is our Wesleyan way we should be proud of it. It does. We know it gets people into relationship with Jesus. It helps restore families and homes, it transforms communities and has the ability to shape nations. And so it is that the truth of the lordship of Jesus Christ, of all persons.
Ryan Barnett: and the grace of knowing that means even me. And and even you, wherever you are, whoever is listening, I hope some non Christian has stumbled on podcast podcast here and will hear me say, Wesleyans are people who believe in the dynamic grace of God is so sufficient, it can forgive and overcome the power of all sin, even yours? How about how about that?
Andy Miller III: No, that's good. Look! 2 min and 7 seconds.
Ryan Barnett: Over.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, you know you had. You had 53 seconds to go if you wanted it.
Ryan Barnett: Count counted against the 1st answer.
Andy Miller III: Oh, there it is, so, Brian. One interesting things that I'll consider about this plan, and I appreciate you bringing up the reality of there being another plan, and that you're even 50 50 on it. I think I'm probably at a similar place myself, and Jay Ferrell's going to be on. I'm going to talk to him about that plan as well. But
Andy Miller III: given this, why did you decide to answer this call?
Andy Miller III: To even apply to put yourself forward for this leadership role.
Ryan Barnett: Yeah. Hey? 1st note, there are 3 plans on.
Andy Miller III: Oh, 3! 0, forgive me!
Ryan Barnett: Well, you know I don't know why, but Leah, hitting Gregory is the one who pointed this out to me. So she's the she's the genius behind the statement right, but it will.
Andy Miller III: Oh, yeah, I know what you're saying.
Ryan Barnett: There is the plan that is in the the doctrines and disciplines.
Andy Miller III: Sure.
Ryan Barnett: That will be adopted on day one, presumably. Right? Yeah, the other 2 are amendments to that one. So there are really 3 proposals before the General Conference. And and the reason why I don't want to seem wishy wishy washy, but I think the reason why a lot of us are like
Ryan Barnett: both could work.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Ryan Barnett: But there is a lot of interest in the details of, and both plans need work, I mean, in in my humble opinion. But I've heard the authors of both say these plans need amendment having been presented to the church. There's some places we need to look at inter amend. So to your question, you know. Why did I? Why did I say? Yes.
Ryan Barnett: I am at a interesting place in my life. I am 20 years under appointment in ministry.
Ryan Barnett: And I have about that many to go. I maybe retire a little earlier than that, but you know we'll just kind of see how how that goes and what my wife thinks. But
Ryan Barnett: so I'm I'm kind of halfway through halfway through my ministry, and Andy.
Ryan Barnett: God has
Ryan Barnett: blessed me with relationships and friendships and insights and experiences over these 1st 20 years, where, you know, I got to learn from Maxie Dunham
Ryan Barnett: at at Asbury similar, I mean, we we worked closely together and have maintained friendship. Jd. Wald has poured into me. Rob Renfro was my mentor in understanding all things, polity and
Ryan Barnett: understanding how things work, and has just prayed for me. Important. Mike Lowry showed me what courage and the Episcopacy looks like. I mean, he was my senior pastor, my 1st senior pastor.
Andy Miller III: Wow!
Ryan Barnett: Post graduation. And so, even before he was.
Ryan Barnett: I could go on and on and on about women and men who have.
Ryan Barnett: bless me, that I've been able to learn from grow from.
Ryan Barnett: I'm so excited about the global Methodist church. I mean, I spent years on the Board of Confessing movement years on the board of good news on help to launch and serve for for a while on the Wca. Which admittedly you know it.
Ryan Barnett: I I ran out of bandwidth to try to reform the Umc. I just didn't think it was going to happen anymore.
Andy Miller III: And.
Ryan Barnett: So I moved to a season where the Lord said, Just rest and prepare to run full tilt when Methodism starts. And so that's
Ryan Barnett: I'm in this season where
Ryan Barnett: I
Ryan Barnett: I didn't apply for apply for this. My obligation took me by surprise, and not like a friend like
Ryan Barnett: I mean he is a friend, but not like a dear friend that I've known for 20 years. It's just somebody said. I feel like the Holy Spirit is nudging me that we should lift another name, and I was like, no like we've lifted Leah Hitti Gregory. She's our leader. She's my spiritual authority. She's
Ryan Barnett: I mean, frankly, one of one of, if not the finest leader I've ever served under Andy. And that's saying something. I've I've had good ones.
Ryan Barnett: And so
Ryan Barnett: I was just like, okay, whatever. But you know, it's not. My name's not going to come out of the Tlc. So you know. And then it did.
Ryan Barnett: And so I've decided like, Okay, Lord.
Ryan Barnett: here are my gifts and graces, my experiences.
Ryan Barnett: I'm at a personal place where I want them to be of the highest and best use for the kingdom of God.
Ryan Barnett: and I will let those in spiritual authority over me and the Church that is in spiritual authority with me decide where that is.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Barnett: And if that's
Ryan Barnett: I know, for some being a bishop is a dream of a lifetime. That's that is not ever been my case. It. I have never
Ryan Barnett: entertained it, considered it thought it even would ever be possible.
Ryan Barnett: And it, the way it's proposed is is, I'll just it's sacrificial.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Ryan Barnett: Anybody, any of the 9 or others who go in.
Ryan Barnett: I I'm just telling you it's sacrificial, financially, family time. And so if anybody's like
Ryan Barnett: wanting it for personal gain. They are sadly mistaken, I think, at what? What's ahead. And so that's why I was like, you know what
Ryan Barnett: I'm just. I'm going to let the Lord move. It's his movement, and we are His people.
Ryan Barnett: And so he.
Ryan Barnett: I'm not going to say no to to him or to the church.
Ryan Barnett: and that's where I'm sitting. And and if if the church says Ryan, we'd like for you to serve in this way for these 2 years to help drive the pace of this movement, then I'll do it. And if they say you're not the guy to do it, I'm
Ryan Barnett: I may say, Oh, thank thank you. That's how I and that's
Ryan Barnett: the honest truth, Andy. I mean, we've known each other for a long time. So you you know that.
Andy Miller III: See, I feel the same way about. Being a seminary president.
Ryan Barnett: Right.
Andy Miller III: I felt like, well, God's called me to this, and and as and as you and I indicated like it, it comes at a cost comes a cost to your family, but also I think it raises even a level of spiritual attack. So but at the same time it, you do it because you sense God calling you and those around you in positions of authority.
Andy Miller III: have said that this is something you should do. And we we think we'd like you to take this step, and so I appreciate your willingness to articulate that way. You've highlighted, you said, mentioned that this is a 2 year period. And that's this legislation is to suggest this, that there would be a role for something called an assembly of bishops. What do you think should happen in this 2 year period. What? What should come from that assembly during that time.
Ryan Barnett: Well.
Ryan Barnett: I think it is critically important that those initial bishops, if that's the plan we picked.
Ryan Barnett: they work diligently to
Ryan Barnett: make sure we curtail any semblance of an Imperial Episcopacy.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Ryan Barnett: I think they need to work hard to set a tone, an example that can be followed in subsequent years, that prioritizes the ministry of the local church decision making happening at the local church if it can, and if it can't, at the annual conference level, if it can, then at the general church level. But, like we should decisions and spending should start at the bottom, and only because they can't do it alone. Should it migrate upward.
Ryan Barnett: I I think even some of the I mean. This is part of my thought on on the legislation itself, but
Ryan Barnett: I I don't think that bishops should be appointing the conference superintendents. I I think that it should work just like a local church. I think maybe the bishops submit 2 or 3 names to a superintendency committee of the conference that they then can talk to and see who's a good fit. Who would work
Ryan Barnett: one of these? Yes, none of these. Please send more candidates. If it's good enough for our local churches, why would we empower the Episcopacy with greater authority and power than we're putting in the hands of our disciple makers on the ground. So what
Ryan Barnett: you know wave your magic wand orions in charge of the assembly. That that's what I would hope and pray is that they spend their time really working on
Ryan Barnett: how to cultivate an episcopal office that does the role that's being asked, which is
Ryan Barnett: to be a prophetic voice
Ryan Barnett: for our doctrine, for our theology to be a winsome voice, for evangelism, for bringing together international relationship across conferences across the globe and I hope that they discipline each other anytime.
Ryan Barnett: They see another one reaching their hand out to do something that that looks like I want to control what's happening. Yes.
Ryan Barnett: yeah. Either either God's gonna be in control of this
Ryan Barnett: or or man is. And if we let God be in control.
Ryan Barnett: this thing's going to
Ryan Barnett: circle the globe and and change the fate of nations.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen! That's what we're praying for.
Andy Miller III: You mentioned the role of being a teacher or a prophetic voice, and people coming out of the Umc. Or somebody like me, who's come into the Gmc. In part because I see the prophetic stance that it's taking do so within the context of an understanding of Scripture. So I just be curious how you understand the inspiration and authority of Scripture, and why that's important to even talk about at this stage of the Gmc, yeah.
Ryan Barnett: I I think Scripture accurately reflects its own authority within its own pages.
Ryan Barnett: sharper than a double edged sword, able to slice, cream, bone, and marrow. Every word is God breathed and useful for correcting, for teaching, for instruction. I think the word tells us it the nature of its own authority, and I think we have to take that seriously. So for Ryan Barnett personally, the word of the Bible is the Word of God.
Ryan Barnett: It is instructive in every circumstance, situation, that we'll ever find ourselves in. It accurately reveals the person and nature of God. It reveals God is the revelation of God, which also tells about something about God. God wants to be known by us, so he's not going to sow confusion or doubt by having disagreement between the written Word of God, the Bible, and the living Word of God. That's Jesus Christ.
Ryan Barnett: This is something Jason Vickers and I have written a book called profoundly Christian, distinctly Methodist that's coming out from seedbed at the end of this year. That will be a doctrinal study for all global Methodist churches to utilize.
Ryan Barnett: to know what it is that makes us profoundly Christian and distinctly Methodist. And this is one of the things we talk about in there about Scripture is the Bible is the written word, so it's not the living word. Jesus is the living word of God, and and Jesus. The living word is Deity. So the Bible, the Book.
Ryan Barnett: It is not God we don't worship Holy Scripture. We worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but the Word of God accurately points in every way
Ryan Barnett: to the living Word of God, that is Jesus Christ. And so
Ryan Barnett: I mean for me. There's parts of the Bible that are hard for me, either because they're hard for me to understand or to reconcile, or they're hard for me, because they
Ryan Barnett: caused me to reflect on things I don't like thinking about.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Barnett: And in every instance I find them to be God's grace towards me, because he loves me so much that he wants me to grow and to
Ryan Barnett: to improve, and in every situation, Andy, I I think we have to confess.
Ryan Barnett: and which is what the Scripture says I, I see dimly now, what then? I shall see in full. But just because Ryan sees something a little dimly does not mean it's not clear. It's just. My mind is clouded.
Ryan Barnett: And so I absolutely affirm the authority of Scripture as the true guiding rule for for our whole life, for everything, for our living, our being, our moving our relating to one another. And I hope that we're all going on to perfection here and living it more every day.
Andy Miller III: Speaking of perfection, does you? Do you think it does so in the way that it points inerrantly? So would you. Are you comfortable with the language inerrancy. According to Chicago statement, you know, it's like somebody like Tom Mccall would suggest that that's just the the classical position that the Church has generally held. But just
Andy Miller III: curious about your comfort or your response to that language.
Ryan Barnett: I think I think the problem with the word is, it's so loaded up that you have to spend as you guys did at Wbs, like
Ryan Barnett: 2 h podcast with 5 people parsing out and articulating what you do and don't mean by that term.
Andy Miller III: Sure, sure.
Ryan Barnett: And so I don't know that it's particularly
Ryan Barnett: this Ryan. Personally, I know. Here you go. This is this is me disagreeing with a friend in a in an agreeable way. I don't think the term is helpful right now. I I also will mention, you know, the Wesley house that we've launched is in the context of a Texas Baptist convention school.
Ryan Barnett: and that word became a flash point of fundamentalism that
Ryan Barnett: was their own. You know.
Ryan Barnett: own family squabble years ago. And so it's also not helpful in that context, because
Ryan Barnett: at least deep in the heart of Texas, you know, if you're talking to a group of people. At least some of them are, gonna be Southern Baptist. And what they mean by that word is very different than what a Texas Baptist or a global Methodist would.
Ryan Barnett: If what you're asking me is, do I affirm that that Scripture is accurate and true, and is the self revelation of God? Yes, I do.
Andy Miller III: For sure. Yeah, and I'm not calling your orthodoxy into question at all. I just, I think that people are interested, and I think you explained it? Well, just by.
Ryan Barnett: Andy I.
Andy Miller III: Little subtle pushback is just that. Well, everything needs qualification. But I understand I've lived in Texas too.
Ryan Barnett: It does, it does. And this is this is what's wonderful about being global. Methodist is.
Ryan Barnett: we are now in the position where we can begin to have high level theological debate about the nuances within orthodoxy rather than.
Andy Miller III: Eman.
Ryan Barnett: That are black and white, and required
Ryan Barnett: hermeneutical gymnastics. And frankly, just the disregard of the long witness of 2,000 years of Christianity. So
Ryan Barnett: that's thrilling. And you're right. Everything does everything does require a little bit of nuance.
Ryan Barnett: so yeah, yeah, I mean.
Andy Miller III: And just so it's clear like I. I didn't write legislation suggesting that the Gmc. Adopt the Chicago statement on errancy or the Luzon Covenant as well like, but or like Asbury seminars line or Wbs's line, I'm not not suggesting, so just just be clear, but I appreciate you responding to me. And like, I, I think it's a good, healthy discussion. And we could maybe have a longer podcast about it.
Ryan Barnett: Yeah, no, it's what's what's awesome is. I know if I'm gonna talk to Annie Miller, it's gonna come up.
Ryan Barnett: It's like, I know, if I talk to my friend Jason Vickers, he's gonna ask me about doing weekly communion, I mean, like, it's just that's that's that's the thing. But it's all, it's it's like, Yeah, yeah, let's talk about it.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I I think it's a a helpful flavor that Wbs is bringing to these conversations.
Ryan Barnett: Agreed. It's a part of our.
Andy Miller III: Tradition, so.
Ryan Barnett: It's good.
Andy Miller III: Now one of the interesting things that, and I think
Andy Miller III: something you will be able to bring is being a church leader, being in various types of churches, metropolitan churches, large churches, county seat type of churches. There are you? You've been a leader, and that's 1 things I enjoy about our conversations. We both had to function in leadership roles, trying to get people on a team. But likely in this new phase we have a real opportunity to unlearn some things as a church. But then we probably need to learn some things. What are some of those things you think we need to unlearn as a church.
Ryan Barnett: I think broadly, we need to unlearn institutionalism.
Ryan Barnett: Bureaucracy.
Ryan Barnett: I also think, brother, this is this would be maybe a little controversial. But that's okay.
Andy Miller III: Good.
Ryan Barnett: We have to unlearn the politics of fairness.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Ryan Barnett: I mean even
Ryan Barnett: I I mean I I just
Ryan Barnett: even in some conversation, people I really respect. You're like, well, things have to be fair they have to be, you know
Ryan Barnett: ours is not a fair testimony. If God was fair to Ryan Barnett, I would be going to hell.
Ryan Barnett: I'm so glad God is not fair. I'm so glad He doesn't give me my due or my deserve.
Ryan Barnett: He gives me grace, and so
Ryan Barnett: the the politics of fairness that we have to do exactly the same to every person regardless is a politic that says God's not in charge. He's not in control, or he's not able to
Ryan Barnett: add his own into the system and and make up. And so I mean.
Ryan Barnett: it's like the institutionalism and the democratization of the Church.
Ryan Barnett: These are things we're really going to have to have serious conversations about.
Ryan Barnett: The Church is not a democracy. I realize we use democratic systems to help govern the Church. But it's not the same thing. The church is a theocracy. Jesus is in charge of the church. It is a monarchy.
Ryan Barnett: And democracies.
Ryan Barnett: What is it that Churchill said. It's it's the it's the worst form of government, but it's the best that there is, you know. And so I think we have to be quick to recognize that those are things we have to unlearn. We have to stop trying to run the church like
Ryan Barnett: we run the Federal Government in the United States.
Andy Miller III: And.
Ryan Barnett: It's not Christian, it's not Biblical, it's not going to hold up in a global model.
Ryan Barnett: And so I think we have to unlearn some of that like
Ryan Barnett: institutions can fix our problems. No, the Holy Spirit.
Ryan Barnett: he! He fixes our problems by perfecting grace in our life. So I think that's I mean, I think that's
Ryan Barnett: broadly. And then, personally, this is where we have to help each other. One thing we have to unlearn is the distrust
Ryan Barnett: of identity, politics and all that kind of stuff.
Ryan Barnett: We have to unlearn that quickly, like between now. And we get to San Jose.
Ryan Barnett: we have to right now in the whole history of our movement. It's right now we can look at each other.
Ryan Barnett: and we know where the other person's heart is, because they're even here.
Ryan Barnett: I have scars
Ryan Barnett: from
Ryan Barnett: the work I have done through the years.
Ryan Barnett: opportunities that were denied and taken away.
Ryan Barnett: all because of my commitment to this orthodox expression, and and I know the same is true for you and for others, from rank and file members. Our laity sitting in the pews, they had to say goodbye to long term friendships, buildings, resources, pat. They had to do hard things, and so right now is the time we can really lean into that we have.
Ryan Barnett: We are in it together because we have bled together, and that is more important than identity. Well, what conference are you from? Well, how are you on this legislation? So to me those are the things that if we could unlearn those quickly that would be great, because what I think we have to learn is how to be a movement. Again. Andy.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Amen. Yeah.
Ryan Barnett: The spirit is breathing, moving, and multiplying, and if we can just get out of the way, I mean.
Ryan Barnett: this is I mean I. This is why.
Ryan Barnett: you know.
Ryan Barnett: if if I I wrote, I wrote this a little bit, but my sense is, if people want to spend a couple of years, refining and reflecting and kind of slowing up the reins and trying to decide, what are we gonna do?
Ryan Barnett: I am definitely not your guy. I. I am a guy who pushes the pace, who wants to see things accelerate and and that that's who I hope we turn to, and I hope it's what we do, because
Ryan Barnett: I believe we can learn to run with a movement that sees
Ryan Barnett: not just hundreds and not just thousands, but hundreds of thousands of people coming to Christ, and faith growing deeper in discipleship, becoming sanctified. I know we just had kind of like this resurgence of class and band meetings, and you know people are really into it. I think we if we will run.
Ryan Barnett: we'll have an explosion of select band meetings. How about what if that's our goal, not just. Oh, band meetings where people are growing towards sanctification. What if there's an explosion of select band meetings of people who God is sanctifying left and right.
Ryan Barnett: bringing them into holiness. That's when the great awakening happened. That's when the East African revival happened. That's where Azusa happened. That that is the stuff that changes
Ryan Barnett: the the kingdom of sin into the kingdom of God on earth, as it is in heaven. So.
Andy Miller III: Hey, man, yeah.
Ryan Barnett: That's what I think we have to begin to learn is how to be movement. That that runs full tilt.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that was one of the exciting things to me when I, even as I was deciding if I wanted to transfer my credentials to the Gmz was in a conversation I had with Keith Boyette on this podcast interesting enough. It was probably the worst recording. Quality I've ever had on a podcast for both him and me. But it happened to be one that went went all over the place and did really well on its views and downloads. But
Andy Miller III: why did I say that, anyhow? But nevertheless, here's here's why what got me excited about that interview was when he started when Keith started to talk about going into places where there is not a an orthodox Wesleyan expression, and not just for the sake. Look! Look! I'm not just in it to spread the club I've been in. I've been a
Andy Miller III: I've been in the club, I I've I've disciple that club. I love the club, but the fact that th. Those are communities also where there aren't where the where there aren't as many Christians, and then also expanding into other countries like this is exciting moment, and that that brings me to my next question, Ryan.
Andy Miller III: because evangelism has to. I I think that's what excites us about what what God's calling us to do is we have something to share. But there are 3 billion people in the world who have no access to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Andy Miller III: And so as a bishop. And this interim, Bishop, how would you give voice to this? I could think it's a crisis
Andy Miller III: and and mobilize local churches which make up the Gmc. To be responsive like that's we can't just have. Okay, this is my little preaching moment we can't just have. The next day, after you disaffiliated next Sunday everything look exactly same, and not take advantage of this opportunity to respond to needs that exist in the world. So what could what could a bishop do like? How would you try to motivate churches to respond to this.
Ryan Barnett: Well, I do think this is one of the places where the general superintendency model could really help us. Because if bishops, in fact, are not tied to the making of appointments and working in the minutia of individual. You know, church work.
Ryan Barnett: administrative church work that has to be done. But if they really are mission focused, then I think this is a place where they can be helpful.
Ryan Barnett: 1st of all, what we have to do is, go back and remind people that we actually have this mission. So you know, when was the last time you were in an average Methodist church where the preaching was, people are perishing apart from the gospel, and that means they're going to hell, and then
Ryan Barnett: that that will only motivate so many people. But then this is where I think we have to get to is, I think we have to say.
Ryan Barnett: what would you give for your unreached
Ryan Barnett: brother, or
Ryan Barnett: you know parent or grandchild, or sister, or what you know
Ryan Barnett: the think of the people Church. Think of the people in your life
Ryan Barnett: who you've shared and shared, and you're still just, you know. Well, that's our crazy family member. We. We put them at the kids table, Thanksgiving. So they're not inundating us.
Ryan Barnett: What would it mean to you for them to be reached by a coworker or a classmate with the love and grace of Jesus Christ? And so, like you have to be willing to be that for someone else. And this is
Ryan Barnett: what you experienced with your broadcast with Keith, right low quality, the style. It was all wrong to make a podcast go viral.
Andy Miller III: Right, right.
Ryan Barnett: Content was good, and it was right, and it was Holy Spirit inspired. We need to get back to that kind of evangelism. Listen.
Ryan Barnett: evangelism is not going to be a
Ryan Barnett: a strategy or like a program. Oh, well, we've developed a 10 point program. Evangelism is people
Ryan Barnett: telling people about Christ and loving them into the kingdom. And so, you know, I think we have to. I think we have to model that. I think we have to reflect that I think we have to have winsome voices speaking into the culture, saying those things that
Ryan Barnett: you know. This is a place where these general superintendents have a real opportunity. Do you know what's crazy is on? I'm not on social media, because I just it's it's
Ryan Barnett: there's nothing good that lives there, man, anyway? Yeah. But.
Andy Miller III: I really I'm I mean, I mean, I'm when people give it up. I just say, man, way to go.
Ryan Barnett: Well, I have a kid, and I, you know. So I'm like, it's bad for his development and brain self self, id, you know, like his own self worth.
Ryan Barnett: If if I'm telling him that, why would I be on it? And I don't care about how I don't care about?
Ryan Barnett: I I mean, how many people do I follow me on Twitter, you know, like
Ryan Barnett: I remember the day I was like
Ryan Barnett: I was deleting my Twitter account, and like. I have 2,500 followers that depend on knowing what I'm eating
Ryan Barnett: and it's been liberating. But listen, I I am aware of what goes on there. So listen to this.
Ryan Barnett: Influencers today.
Ryan Barnett: They
Ryan Barnett: maintain, get, and maintain their popularity by basically interpreting and knowing what the culture wants them to say and saying it well.
Ryan Barnett: We, we're actually gonna have to do the the opposite cause. We tried that in the Methodist church.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Ryan Barnett: Hey? We'll tell you what you want to hear as as winsomely as we can, and it doesn't do any good because
Ryan Barnett: it there's no power in that gospel. Yeah. And so we need to winsomely say not what they hope or want us to say to them, to affirm.
Ryan Barnett: You know, whatever it is across their mind, but that there is truth
Ryan Barnett: it's liberating. It can be painful to live in.
Ryan Barnett: But there's nothing better
Ryan Barnett: when you do and so I mean, I really, this is what I think we can do is I think we can harness.
Ryan Barnett: I think we can harness that platform that. The global Methodist church has to speak in some again, Winsome, this is what
Ryan Barnett: this is why us? Why now.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Ryan Barnett: Global Methodist, Andy.
Ryan Barnett: The world is retreating into increasing
Ryan Barnett: refragmented sections
Ryan Barnett: that makes it hard for them to even hear each other.
Ryan Barnett: We carry this long legacy of being soaked in and by grace and
Ryan Barnett: pouring it out.
Ryan Barnett: And so we have a lot of truth telling denominations
Ryan Barnett: who I respect deeply.
Ryan Barnett: I don't always experience that their 100% truth comes out with the same 100% grace. I'm sure it's in there.
Ryan Barnett: And for some people it works really great, but I think, for there is a stripe of people to your point, and there's 3 billion of them
Ryan Barnett: that many of whom would respond.
Andy Miller III: Cheap.
Ryan Barnett: Weslian way of understanding who God is, reconciling a sovereign God with the libertarian freedom of of human will. There are, there are people who
Ryan Barnett: don't need a reconciliation of those things in order to, but some do, and we can offer it, I mean, in our theology and doctrines. And so
Ryan Barnett: I I think, man, I'm I'm with you. I would be excited for our episcopacy to really take that on and say, you know, let's mobilize the saints
Ryan Barnett: for saving the nations.
Andy Miller III: Amen.
Andy Miller III: Okay, we just have time for one quick response to this one. But I wanted to give you, since you've like taken on leadership in this in Waco. But talk to me about theological education in the global Methodist church, and what should it look like and who should offer it? I know this wouldn't be a decision for the Bishop, but I'm just curious of your own thoughts.
Ryan Barnett: Yeah, I think that
Ryan Barnett: I think that theological education is going to have to increasingly become more responsive to the local church and her needs.
Ryan Barnett: I'll be honest Methodist education for a long while
Ryan Barnett: knew that the purchaser of their product, for lack of better words, were bishops and boards of ordained ministry, and so they had to produce a product that was passable to that consumer that has shifted. Now the consumer of a graduate is the local church and the local church
Ryan Barnett: is going to prioritize effectiveness
Ryan Barnett: skills that pastoral skills, preaching skills leadership skills. So I think theological education gonna have to be paying very close attention to that.
Ryan Barnett: I think they're gonna have to understand, too, that one size will not fit all in the future of the global Methodist church. This is.
Ryan Barnett: this is just my my opinion, but
Ryan Barnett: one size will not fit all. And we're in a new marketplace economy.
Ryan Barnett: Yeah, right? Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Barnett: As churches receive
Ryan Barnett: multiple pastors to talk to before they decide and choose.
Ryan Barnett: And so, you know.
Ryan Barnett: I don't think I don't think I don't think everyone should have to get the same exact degree.
Ryan Barnett: but I do think that theological education is important.
Ryan Barnett: I think we need to continue to promote scholarship and and thought at the highest levels. I wrote an article, it's was published in Firebrand, the role in place of theologians in the next Methodism. Yeah, sure. So you know, it's just an opinion piece. But if you want to know more, it's it's there. I think there's a prize place for it. But I
Ryan Barnett: I mean, I'll just tell you like. Personally, I would never support going back to the idea that ordained people must have a 96 h. Mdiv.
Andy Miller III: Sure. Yeah.
Ryan Barnett: Only a select number of of places. I think, that caused all kinds of problems and harm.
Ryan Barnett: financially, institutionally, and certainly for the movement.
Ryan Barnett: yeah.
Ryan Barnett: So you know. And then there's the issue of
Ryan Barnett: overseas education, which is a whole other issue that we must begin to address and and prioritize and and the needs are different. And the the skills are different. And we need to look at how we do indigenous education training. I mean that's not just all like, well, the Us. Is going to tell you how to do it.
Ryan Barnett: Because we have all the Phds. Or whatever that that's not helpful, either. And so it is a it's. It's a really good conversation to be having. I will say I I really pretty. I I appreciate where we have landed initially.
Ryan Barnett: and whether it whether or not it's a perfect situation, I don't know. There's some fine tuning, but I like the general direction that we're headed in with pastoral studies programs, alternate.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Ryan Barnett: A more defined educational requirement for deployment. And
Ryan Barnett: how about fruit, you know, like, where.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, sure.
Ryan Barnett: How do we weigh fruit against it like? Give me the most.
Andy Miller III: I know I mean it's a key thing.
Ryan Barnett: You know who the church is gonna hire.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I think listening to church has got to be critical at this point, I think. And that's what people have been sold as they've wanted to cut that, that the local church is going to have more buy in. It's not the same thing as it's not a Congregational system.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, but it is, but it is a system where the we want the Church. I I think if the Church has something to say, and also I think this is, we designed our course of study, our pastoral studies program around what the Gmc. Said it'd be. It's easy for seminaries to say, this is how it should be. Okay, Ryan. I'm really at the gun. Sorry I have to leave so quick, but thank you for your time. Thank you for your willingness to step in this role. We'll be praying for you as we head to Costa Rica. But I appreciate you coming on the podcast.
Ryan Barnett: Annie. Thanks for doing this for helping and get get these interviews out, folks. And thank you for all you're doing for for Wbs for the Gmc. And look forward to seeing Costa Rica, Buddy.
Andy Miller III: Thanks, Ryan.