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From writing for the Wall Street Journal to advising MoMA’s permanent collection to launching one of the first game-based arts spaces in the world, Jamin Warren talks through contemporary issues in bringing games to the arts-world public
Here is the verbatim transcript of the interview between Jamin Warren and Theo Triantafyllidis.
Theo Triantafyllidis: The most interesting things happen when, like, the artist and curatorial kind of conversation is pushing both sides in interesting territory. And I think also artists, like, sometimes will feel hopeless in the sense where you feel like, "Okay, I can spend, like, the next six months developing this new mechanic for the game, but nobody’s gonna notice."
Jamin Warren: What does it take to actually exhibit game-based art in a museum? Beyond the romantic notions of games as an art form lies a complex reality of technical requirements, development timelines, and institutional infrastructure that most cultural organizations simply aren't prepared for.
Today, I'm speaking with Theo Triantafyllidis, who builds what he calls "performative systems." Working with games, live simulations, performances, and installations, Theo creates darkly playful procedural worlds that turn phenomena like ecological collapse and networked desire into experiences that can be felt rather than verbally explained.
Theo has had the pleasure of exhibiting at major institutions, including the Whitney, Centre Pompidou, and was part of the Venice Biennale’s Hyper Pavilion. His work ranges from Pastoral, an intimate anti-game about a muscular orc running through an infinite hayfield, to Feral Metaverse, an ambitious eight-player multiplayer game with [a] custom medieval catapult rig that's been in development for over three years. I had the pleasure of working with Theo on the Steam release last year. It was a lot of fun working on that with him.
In this conversation, we go deep on the practical realities of exhibiting interactive work: Why IT staff aren't the same as technical infrastructure; how institutions fund physical installations but not digital development (or vice versa); why a game that takes two weeks to build might tour internationally while a three-year project struggles to find the right venue; and what it means when audiences bring their "player psychology" into the gallery space—that instinct to test boundaries and break systems that makes games fundamentally different from other art forms.
If you're a cultural institution thinking about game-based programming, an artist navigating this space, or simply curious what happens when the art world meets interactive media, this conversation offers a rare, unvarnished look at what it takes to really do this work well. Had a great time catching up with Theo—known him for years, his time out here in Los Angeles. So, enjoy the conversation.
Theo Triantafyllidis: Um, I mean, I think that the art world does to a certain extent work a little bit like a trust-based system, and, like, there is... I think that there is a kind of, like, a curatorial acceptance that somehow... like, it does feel very hard to break into, but once, um, there is some curatorial credibility, it does help a long way, I guess. Um, so I, I definitely feel like now, even though it was really hard... I mean, when I was starting 10 years ago, it doesn't... doesn't feel so far away, but I, I think that there is a quite a significant shift in how the art world is perceiving, like, video games as art, or, like, artists making games as a possibility. It’s gotten better. Um, and then I think that there is... I, I'm extremely lucky now to be in a position where, uh, with a few key institutions that have sort of exhibited and welcomed my work, like, this has definitely opened a few doors, I would say, for, uh, continuing presentations.
Jamin Warren: Yeah. Yeah. Well, what would you say, like, even though there's been some progress with institutions, what would you say are some of the things that institutions, like, still don't understand about what your work needs?
Theo Triantafyllidis: Uh, I think one thing too that seems tough to wrap one's head around—but that's very understandable—is the, like, the development cycles for game projects and, like, the, the time and amount of, uh, resources and, um, like, uh, effort is... that is required to, to complete more, um, ambitious game projects. Also, I think the game industry standards and, um, the gamers' standards are, uh, extremely high right now because of the kind of, like, overall production quality that has gone, uh, off, off the charts. So, yeah, it's a tough, uh, it's a tough battle, I think.
And then, yeah, I, I think... I mean, what... one of the issues that I keep running into is that because I, I like the projects that I present in exhibitions [to] have both, like, a digital component—which is the video game itself—but also a physical, sculptural component and installations. Um, as you saw with the Feral Metaverse multiplayer game and a physical installation of an eight-player catapult, um, as a gamer rig. Um, it's... I think if you are doing things through an art pipeline, there is usually funding for the physical installation, but then not necessarily funding for the digital development of, of the project. Or some places might have... the other way around, might have... might find the right pools within the institutional funding to, uh, fund a digital production, but then it's a different department that handles physical production and it kind of, like, uh, falls through the cracks somehow. And it gets a bit tricky to manage to access both pools, uh, of funding sometimes.
Jamin Warren: Okay. Got it. Are there any, um, any particular institutions that you think are doing this particularly well? Like ones that you've shown at or ones that you've seen do game-based work really well?
Theo Triantafyllidis: Yes. Um, I've had, um, a great experience working with Onassis... Onassis in New York, and I think, like, they have been developing a very solid program, uh, for showcasing this type of work. And I think, uh, for example, uh, the Serpentine and the work that Hans Ulrich Obrist is doing over there, um, has, uh, over the past few years kind of, like, built, um, [a] substantial program that is both doing research and development and trying to create, like, a real ecosystem around this, uh, this type of work that can support long-term development and more ambitious installations of it.
Jamin Warren: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, do you find that communicating the values of games can be hard for institutions? Like in the sense that the, you know, the art world responds really well to spectacle—like these big things that you can feel. And the way games communicate their value is through these very intimate, personal interactions between you and a controller, sometimes you and other people. You know, obviously there's a visual component that can kind of, like, sell the grandeur of a particular work, but how do you feel, like, um, be... you're able to communicate the things that games do without defaulting to, like, a huge, you know, big visual image?
Theo Triantafyllidis: Yeah, I was, um, I was also reading a lot about game criticism in general as well, and like seeing this as a kind of, like, continuous issue that generally people talking about games will quite... will often prefer to talk about the themes, or the narrative themes, or the, uh, kind of, like, the, yeah, the more narrative components of games and, uh, direct the criticism and analysis of the work there. But it's much harder to put into words, I think, like, um, like a total game experience or the, uh, like novel ways of interacting of... or interesting game mechanics are much less discussed. And for sure that happens in the art world, but I think even in games criticism it’s, uh, always sometimes hard to talk about.
Jamin Warren: Right. Yeah, there's like, um, like a broader language issue in terms of some of the things... I just see this a lot with, like, using "gameplay" as a default catch-all to describe what happens inside of a game system. Um, are there some things that, like, uh, museums and institutions should understand before they approach you and accept your work? Like maybe we can start with, you know, what are the right timelines, you know, what are... what do you need for production, testing, iteration? And then, um, you know, what do you feel like institutions should understand before going down this road?
Theo Triantafyllidis: Yeah, I mean, um, I think that's a... that's... the timeline for sure is an important, um, challenge. And I think... and of course it's also, um, something that also artists, including myself, and game makers often get totally wrong, uh, on like sco... like, uh, also the whole issue of scoping a game correctly and understanding how much can be done in how much time and how mu... how many resources.
Uh, but that's quite a practical issue. I think, um, to me, the one thing that I was, uh, always kind of, like, looking for more from the art world is kind of, like, an understanding of the impact of gaming culture in culture in general, and how it has become, like, a very central driving force in, in culture and criticism in general. And I think that, uh, a big section of the art world is completely oblivious to, to that shift. Um, and then, uh, yeah, and then the layer of understanding and finding the language to analyze and talk about this type of work and understand... and kind of, like, also looking it as its own medium rather than trying to bring tools of analysis from other media is... would be very useful.
Jamin Warren: Yeah. Well, what would you say is the difference between, you know—I hear this often where you say, like, you know, games... there's a difference between having, like, an IT staff versus having, like, the technical infrastructure. What do you think is the appropriate infrastructure to showcase work like yours?
Theo Triantafyllidis: Yeah, I mean, that's also something that, um, I've been running into a bit because, uh, yeah, I mean, art institutions often... yeah, they don't even have the proper, like, position in their, uh, um, in their crews to, to manage these kind of installations. Especially like sometimes when an institution is taking on to a larger video game show, uh, it's often not completely... the challenges are often not completely understood. And yeah, like an IT person or someone who usually would install video art might not be exactly the same skill set as, uh, someone who needs to, uh, maintain a video game during an exhibition.
And also even the... even... and that's something that like I'm trying to deal with a little bit at the moment, is thinking also about how, like, even with tons of playtesting and even with, like, with all the resources that an artist can have, making sure that a game can flawlessly run and kind of, like, fix itself during, uh, eight-hour daily runs in an exhibition unsupervised, with, uh, audience coming in and out and constantly trying to break it... is something like, it has to be super foolproof and super, uh, self-sufficient, or it needs to be babysitted by someone who is, uh, kind of, like, occasionally taking a look that everything is working. So it's also a challenge.
Jamin Warren: You know, it's, it's funny that you mention the, like, breaking a game piece of it, because I think when people come to experience a game, they're, they're bringing a wide range of player psychologies...
Theo Triantafyllidis: Yes.
Jamin Warren: Yeah, when they, like, approach a game work in their personal lives and they bring all of that into a gallery space. So, you know, obviously with multiplayer games, you know, which you've done in the past, is a major consideration. Um, I think sometimes, you know, we're wanting to show game-based art, and it can be hard to understand that some people are going to come into this... you know, it's hard for an institution to understand that, you know, some people are going to come into this with an oppositional, like, approach. And it's not because... it's not because they're being jerks. They're just like, they just want to test the boundaries of what a particular work is and what it does. And you need to be prepared that that's a way that someone will react to game-based art. That is gonna be... is gonna be really different, um, compared to, to other, other media.
Theo Triantafyllidis: And honestly, I think that is, uh, a behavior that is to be expected. And like, I do myself, and like most gamers will do is, like, fir... before playing a game, you're trying to understand what are the boundaries of this game, what are the rules of the game, and like, how easy are they to break or how are they enforced? And like, uh, what is the player agency? And this is all a negotiation that, um, like gamers constantly want to have with the game. Uh, and of course they bring that to the exhibition space as well.
Jamin Warren: Yeah, I mean, how should we... how should folks be thinking about budgeting for ongoing maintenance versus, you know, not just the installation itself?
Theo Triantafyllidis: Um, I mean, the maintenance is dependent, I guess, in the exhibition runs, but for sure there is, uh, kind of, like, having the foresight to have an invigilator or have, um, also the IT person or whoever is installing the games occasionally checking. It's also even completely outside the, the scope of, of the game itself—there is always constantly the OS that is fighting, uh, for its own... for its own rights on the background, and all these other software that's usually installed in the computers that are running the game. So there is so many... it's a, it's a live system that someone has to, uh, take care of in a sense.
Jamin Warren: Um, well, so let's break down, you know, two of your works. Let's start with Pastoral from 2019. That is a game that you've showed at quite a few places. Can you tell me a bit about the initial installation? What was that like? What was that requir... you know, what was required for, for that work?
Theo Triantafyllidis: Um, this was, um... it's quite funny because this, uh, this is one of the works that took me, like, the le... the least time to develop. It was a bit of an offshoot from another project and I was just doing it on my downtime. And I wa... I, like, after having this orc character that I was, uh, uh, becoming as an avatar for a long time, I wanted to free this character and let them have a, a chill moment. So the whole game is, uh, a very muscular, androgenous orc that is running in a hayfield. And it is an anti-game in the sense that it feels like, uh, a scene from a longer video game where you are running from one quest to the next, but you have, like, a small moment of downtime where nothing is happening and you can enjoy the view of the game and the world of the game, uh, but you have this anticipation, uh, of the next thing that, that is coming. But I wanted to expand this moment to infinity and create this, um, this kind of, like, infinite hayfield, uh, where you can run around and, like, look at the sunset without anything bothering you.
Um, and this was, uh, actually proven to be very well-suited for the exhibition format, and it has been the work that I've exhibited the most, uh, and keep getting invitations for. Uh, because it is... it plays very well with this ambient feeling of, uh, jumping into a game in an exhibition, and, uh, the game not asking you for too much, not asking you to do a tutorial, not asking you to learn complex controls or mechanics, uh, but rather giving you, um, an sort of, like, an aesthetic moment to appreciate in an exhibition space, uh, and letting the audience kind of very freely go in and out of it as they want and spend as much time as they want in it.
Um, but, uh, for example with Feral Metaverse, that is a much more complex game that I also want to make it into a longer experience that people can play online, there has been this constant struggle of, like, how complex should it be? How complex should the controls and the interactions be? Or... while keeping it simple enough that someone can intuitively understand what they have to do even if they spend, like, 20 seconds on it in an exhibition.
Jamin Warren: Yeah, and then with Feral Metaverse, you know, it has this custom medieval catapult rig. It's multiplayer, it's [a] multiplayer installation piece. You're collaborating with other people in this like hostile environment. You know, as you're thinking about the collaboration structure for this and in the places where you've... you've sho... showcased it—you showcased [it] at a couple of different places—what did it look like developing that for, you know, for Nagel Draxler and then with an eye towards how the work would then move to other places such as the Group Hug exhibition at, at WSA?
Theo Triantafyllidis: Yeah, um, uh, Nagel Draxler was, uh, extremely, like, generous in providing me an exhibition space for, uh, to kind of, like, exhibit a first prototype of a game. And they, they agreed to do this before the game even existed or without having so much to show of the game itself when we started the conversation. Um, and it was interesting because from the beginning of this project, I knew that it's an ambitious game project that is very complicated as a development process and might take a really long time to finish. But I also wanted to integrate this idea of audience feedback and making the game development process more transparent for the general public.
So I wanted to... I saw this exhibition in Nagel Draxler in Berlin as a... as a place to show a first, like, MVP or like a first minimum prototype of the game. Uh, and there I worked in a super DIY way with a very small budget, uh, almost like doing a game jam with a few friends who, uh, took over, like, the music and some of the concept art and some of the 3D characters. But, um, uh, I had to kind of, like, without really knowing the, the multiplayer networking side or having done it before, I kind of pushed myself to, to try and make like the simplest functional prototype that would communicate the core ideas of the game.
Um, and it was quite fun to, to show it, uh, at that stage. And I think it was... it really both, I think, the audience appreciated this openness, that this is a prototype and it's in development. And that's something you don't see in exhibitions very easily. And also I got a lot of very useful feedback to keep developing the game, basically.
Jamin Warren: Yeah, I mean, you know, it sounds like part of the approach should be for both for institutions and for artists is figuring out exactly where the work is in the lifestyle of the artist. Is this something that's going to be shown? Is this something that's going to be part of an ongoing series? Maybe you don't quite know yet. But yeah, I do think setting realistic expectations for what can be done is super, super helpful. And, you know, it's okay, particularly for smaller institutions, to not feel like they have to pull something huge together. Maybe, you know, we could just be the first step in the process of this work and it's going to grow from there. The work is not complete in any shape or fashion, and so you're just providing a venue, and at that stage it's just—even if it's a small nascent stage.
So yeah, even for the small stages, how do you communicate the technical requirements to venues? You maybe mentioned this a little bit earlier, you know, coming from a video art background or video installation background. How do you communicate the technical requirements that doesn't just mean like plugging in a monitor and show the work?
Theo Triantafyllidis: It's usually a more elaborate tech rider that, uh, looks more similar to, uh, how either like a more complex installation would look like or something like a, like a lighting design... lighting tech rider for a theater play might look like. So it's, it's a bit more elaborate than a video art tech rider, I guess. But, and has like computer specs and networking requirements and, uh, kind of like operation cycle descriptions and invigilator instructions that's, uh, trying to give a... as complete a picture of how this is gonna run in a day-to-day basis and how it's gonna be installed.
Jamin Warren: I guess for both Feral Metaverse and for Pastoral, do you have like a minimum viable technical setup versus like an ideal scenario for each work?
Theo Triantafyllidis: Yeah. For, uh, for Pastoral, it's pretty easy. I mean, both... for all the game works, I'm actually super cautious to have, uh, not have too crazy gaming computer requirements. So I spend a lot of time optimizing and making... making the works run in relatively normal, uh, PCs. Uh, so that helps a little bit with how to exhibit them, because if for an institution you tell them like, "I want you to buy or rent a $3,000 gaming PC," it changes the conversation quite a bit, I think. Versus a PC that they might have around or they can be similar to a game that they showed a couple of years ago.
Yeah, so... yeah, so for Pastoral it's actually super easy. For Feral Metaverse, I haven't quite, um, because so far I've only showed it as tied with, uh, with one of the custom sculptural rigs that I make for it. Uh, and it's either been four or eight players. I do have an issue of understanding... I was invited for... from a few, like, venues or festivals that didn't have the budget to ship the whole sculpture, which makes sense. But then I also didn't want to show the work just in a regular, like, city... like a seated desktop environment. Um, so I'm trying to figure out a, a version... like, I think the, the game is playable for... by two people minimum and it's quite fun for two to play. Um, so I'm also trying to find what's the best artistic solution for maintaining the idea of the installation but also making it super easy to install.
Jamin Warren: Okay. Yeah, let's see. Um, do you have any advice for cultural institutions that want to show game-based work but don't have some of the expertise that's required to do it in-house?
Theo Triantafyllidis: Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I mean, it's usually... it's usually a smart move to have, um, either a curator or a specific... And there... I, I think actually there is quite a larger pool now of, uh, kind of the Venn diagram of good curators who also, like, understand games and can install a game on a computer. Uh, so, uh, either, yeah, finding a curator who can also have a understanding of the technical requirements and can arrange accordingly, or having a dedicated person who is a bit more, um, involved with games than, uh, super exclusively IT network person.
Jamin Warren: Yeah, I mean, that's true. There's, um, there's definitely more... I guess I'd say for me, like, maybe this more ambitious type of thing that I want to see, you know, there's game-based work to... I really want it to be as common as, you know, like art hanging on the wall. And so, you know, if there's that long-term metric, there's obviously still like a long way to go. Um, more importantly, or, you know, it's more that just that literacy at institutions that they're... that they're comfortable with a lot of different things, and that this is just literacy that they should be able to add to their... you know, functionally to their toolkit.
Theo Triantafyllidis: Yeah, and there is also the... I think there is also the intermediate step for institutions that don't want to, like, uh, fully get their feet wet but, uh, want to start engaging with such... with this conversation. There is a lot of really interesting artists who work with video games as a medium, but maybe sometimes the end result is, uh, more like a static video piece, uh, rather than an actual game. Uh, and that's, uh, also a good middle ground sometimes.
Jamin Warren: Um, well, I want to shift gears here and talk about maybe some of the institutional expectations, like those types of things. How do you communicate that the work is evolving, you know, to institutionals that maybe need a fixed deliverable? You know, you mentioned earlier there's kind of an unfamiliarity with how games are created, and I've seen this throughout my career that, you know, what things look like, what games look like at different stages is not always legible to someone who doesn't know. So like, how do you communicate that, like, that this is still in process when an institution, you know, needs that degree of finality or certainty in the process?
Theo Triantafyllidis: I mean, that is tough, and it's also, like, still an open question for me. Like, uh, how for Feral Metaverse, I think there is, uh, for sure a kind of... basically an institution that wants to support such a project is also like a commitment to, like, making this future-proof or at least like finding ways to, to continue its life. And because there is a lot of moving parts and a lot of things that are unknown, uh, for how this can be shown in 10 or 50 years from now. Um, um, but I think it seems like also things are getting streamlined and, like, both institutions are understanding what the preservation pipeline looks for something like this and, like, who are the key people for, uh, for this. And also the tools seem to be becoming easier and somehow even like being able to, to ask an LLM, like, "How do we, uh, make this ro... this software run from, uh, 1995?" uh, does help the situation, I think.
Jamin Warren: Yeah, that is a really good point in a way that Google is directly seeing information, but it's like not gonna show you how to implement things in a meaningful way. Are there, um, are there any like forms of structural support that make a difference to you? Like, you know, beyond like more money, obviously.
Theo Triantafyllidis: Um, I mean, I think, uh, for me also like having moved my studio in, in Greece, like actually finding like building a good game development team has been, uh, an issue. And like, sometimes, like especially for some institutions that have a more ongoing, uh, are part of the discourse around, uh, games and art, I think they've already built a small community of specialized people around them. And I think that's also a very valuable resource.
Jamin Warren: Yeah. Um, well, like how much time do you think you actually need, like to make a game? Obviously there's, you know, what you want versus like what you actually need.
Theo Triantafyllidis: Yeah, it's funny because these are the exactly opposite sides of the spectrums. Pastoral development time... uh, I mean, of course a lot of the things were made outside that time and I was using assets from other projects, but the development time was maybe two weeks. And Feral Metaverse is already like three and a half years. So it, uh, it's super depends.
But it's definitely not easy to be like, um, like someone asks for a new commission for a game and they want to show... to premiere a new work, but then, um, yeah, asking that to be done in six months is already like very rough, I think.
Jamin Warren: Yeah, I mean, I guess looking forward, if you're like a museum or an institution, what are some of the things that you should be doing now in order to be credible with game-based art? Because I think there's this perception that you can just like do it, and obviously it's great to rip the Band-Aid off and just go for it, but at the same time there are things that you obviously need to do to prep. Um, in your experience, what are some of the things that you know for someone starting from zero and they're interested in the work, what would you recommend to help them build credibility in terms of showing this kind of stuff?
Theo Triantafyllidis: Um, I think actually the HR part is quite... quite important, like maybe hiring, uh, like thinking a bit more on the long run and hiring, uh, people who can create the infrastructure to, to, uh, facilitate this kind of work for long is, is interesting. Like getting an on-board curator who is a bit more well-versed in this language or getting a, a tech person who can install this type of work, I think is a good investment.
Uh, but also I think showing... institutions showing video games can also very easily fall into the trap of, like, uh, kind of being too hyped about trying this new medium and, uh, kind of, like, repeating some hurtful clichés about the medium or, um, kind of, like, exhibited... exhibiting the medium in a way that is, um, uh, is not really, like, trying to place it within a general arts discourse, but is more like a novelty thing. Um, so I think, uh, yeah, like treating it as a... as a medium within the context of everything else. And even, even not thinking about, "Let's do a video game show," but more... in a more chill way integrating games in, in regular curation is also actually more important maybe.
Jamin Warren: Yeah, I mean, I 100% agree. And I think that the... I think that the idea of doing, you know, like video game shows, um, like unless they're thematic, but, you know, where there's just something that is more... the through-line than the fact that they're video games. Like to me, that is not a sufficient curatorial point of view, to say that like, they're all games and we're just going to put them all together, they're made with game engines. I mean, i- i- ideally it's like, um, you know, it should be part of a body of work. Games are just one... should be just one expression of a curatorial theme.
Um, the other thing I think that helps is, you know, like some basic games literacy. I think it helps a lot if you're interested just to be spending time playing commercial video games. Obviously that's a touchpoint for artists who are making this kind of work. Um, but it does help build some of those kinds of sensitivities in terms of like what you're looking to expect to show. Uh, especially if you're going to be showing... um, it's, it's like if you were doing, you know, video art and had not seen a film before or your understanding of film as a medium was pretty facile. You know, it's like, "Oh, the last time I watched a movie was like when I was a kid." So your efforts at the... in the end, they're going to be hamstrung in some kind of way because you just haven't been spending time with it. And, and I really think that you should.
Theo Triantafyllidis: Yeah, and then I think that also helps kind of, um... I think the most interesting things happen when, like, the artist and curatorial kind of conversation is pushing both sides in interesting territory. And I think also artists, like, sometimes will feel hopeless in the sense where you feel like, "Okay, I can spend, like, the next six months developing this new mechanic for the game, but nobody’s gonna notice. And if I just, uh, have a simple first-person controller, everyone's gonna say like, 'Yeah, this is a video game artwork.'" Um, and like making sure that there is, like, proper curatorial feedback and there is, um... like will... I think can really help both sides, basically.
Jamin Warren: Cool. Well, Theo, thank you so much for your time. I, I really appreciate it.
Theo Triantafyllidis: Yeah. Thank you.
Jamin Warren: A big thanks for listening. If you're interested in the work that I'm doing at Gameplay Arts, please do sign up for our newsletter. There's a link in the show notes. All right, have a good one.