Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Tap to send me your reflections ♡ In this deeply heartfelt conversation, I’m joined by the wonderful Aisling Mustan (founder of the festivals: 'Exhale' and 'Good Grief') to explore the raw, tender terrain of what many call a 'dark night of the soul'. Aisling shares vulnerably and powerfully about her own recent experience - how it unfolded, what it revealed and the practices that supported her through it. We talk about the discomfort most of us try to avoid, and how, paradoxically, it’s...
Tap to send me your reflections ♡
In this deeply heartfelt conversation, I’m joined by the wonderful Aisling Mustan (founder of the festivals: 'Exhale' and 'Good Grief') to explore the raw, tender terrain of what many call a 'dark night of the soul'.
Aisling shares vulnerably and powerfully about her own recent experience - how it unfolded, what it revealed and the practices that supported her through it.
We talk about the discomfort most of us try to avoid, and how, paradoxically, it’s often where our deepest wisdom resides. We explore:
This isn’t a conversation about fixing or solving.
As Aisling says, it’s about witnessing, honouring, and 'trusting the darkness' as part of 'life’s alchemical process'.
Whether you’re in your own 'dark night' or simply curious about how to meet life’s inevitable lows with more compassion, I hope this episode brings you comfort - and the reminder that you’re not alone.
If this resonates, I’d love to hear from you. And if you feel called, please share the episode with someone who might need it today. You can also connect here with Aisling: @exhalehub OR www.exhalehub.com/school
With love, always,
Henny
A final thought: If you're feeling challenged by your own Samhain - please do reach out and seek the support you need. We ALL need different help at different times in our lives and that may be from your GP, a therapist, a trusted friend or a supportive family member. Always listen deeply to your needs and care deeply for your Self by taking the action that will most support you.
***
A piece of quiet
Your weekly pause - a calming relaxation practice, every Wednesday. A few minutes to settle, a few minutes to write. First aid for the soul.
Join here - use the code PEACE for 20% off your first year
Let’s stay connected
Sign up to hear more - and only receive what speaks to you.
Join the list here
everyday ♡ compassion
Tiny reminders of self-love and presence, delivered three times a week.
Subscribe here
Free Events & Small Group Courses
Explore the power of Flow Journaling, self-compassion and gentle change in a supportive space.
See what’s on
Solo Retreats at Bach Brook
Rest, reflect and reconnect – fully supported in a place of deep natural beauty.
Retreat with me
Books, Journaling Resources & Self-paced Courses
Explore tools for inner connection and compassionate growth.
Visit the library
Free 20-minute Call
Explore whether coaching could support what’s calling for change.
...
A space to settle in and listen, and see where the episode takes you. This inspiring, reflective podcast is an invitation to travel deeper, with compassionate self-enquiry.
Henny shares insights from her own life, alongside practices that help us connect with our inner wisdom, explore our relationship with change and find a greater sense of flow. Henny believes we all hold our own answers, so there are no one-size-fits-all solutions here. This is a space to be with what’s true for you, and to grow from there.
If you’re drawn to slowing down, listening in, and exploring what it means to live with greater authenticity, this podcast is for you. Guided by psychology, mindfulness, therapeutic coaching, flow journaling, and everyday compassion, we explore ideas that help us step further into our inner worlds, in order to shape the changes we seek in our outer worlds.
Speaker 1: Today's conversation
deals with some pretty big
issues.
Largely, we focus on the
experience of going through
Soane, a dark night of the soul.
My special guest is Aisling
Mustang, who shares vulnerably,
rawly and powerfully her own
experiences and what supports
her.
I invite you to settle in and
listen to the wisdom of this
wonderful woman.
Welcome to the Henny Flynn
podcast, the space for deepening
self-awareness.
With profound self-compassion.
I'm Henny, I write, coach and
speak about how exploring our
inner world can transform how we
experience our outer world, all
founded on a bedrock of
self-love.
Settle in and listen and see
where the episode takes you.
Okay.
So, ashley, first of all,
because we've obviously been
like dove straight into the
conversation, but just to really
properly welcome you and to say
it's lovely to see you.
I will meet you in that thigh, I
have a feeling we've both, like
, rushed through some parts of
our day and this is a moment to
settle yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2: Uh, it's really
lovely to be here with you and I
just so enjoy our chats.
And, yeah, I I'm just really
interested to see where this
goes, because I'm such an over
planner and I'm really trying to
let go of that and I I'm
trusting you know our
conversations.
They're always so interesting
and so, uh, they go off on so
many tangents that, um, I'm just
really curious to see how that
plays out on a podcast.
Speaker 1: I recognize,
recognize the over planner, jean
, I definitely have that too and
I one of the things I think
that doing the podcast has
taught me is that there are
times when I'll have an idea
about something and it will just
pour from from my fingertips
and I'll I'll write almost I
suppose it's almost a script for
the episode.
And then other times I'm just
like, oh, something is like
welling up from within me and
and I just speak and trusting
those moments.
I mean that feels they both
feel like flow in their own way,
but the the just just listening
within and allowing the words
to come out feels like such a
beautiful practice and I really
love these kind of
conversational episodes.
So let's, yeah, let's just see
where it goes.
I think I am.
I was saying to you just before
I press record about there was a
theme that I think might be
interesting and it seemed to
resonate with you, which is why
I said let's just press record
to capture it the theme of what
brings us comfort.
And for me, when I look at the
work that you offer out into the
world, I see that there is this
essence of bringing others
comfort, and it was inspired by
someone who wrote to me about
another podcast episode I talked
about had really, like, sparked
this thought within her about
what brings me comfort and how
comfort can so often get
confused with distraction rather
than deep, true comfort, and I
I'd really love to begin there,
actually, and just see what does
that spark for you actually?
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a really
interesting word for me because
I actually have, I would say, a
very acute awareness of other
people's comfort and I have this
sort of deep ability to if,
when I kind of am in a room,
I'll be able to figure out what
is going to make everybody in
this room 10% more comfortable,
and that act is one that also
makes me feel comfortable.
It brings me enormous comfort
and, you know, like there's
nothing that makes me happier
than putting a blanket over
somebody or, you know, just
helping them to feel more
comfortable, and I think that
you're right, I think that's an
interesting thread and I, you
know my mom is the same.
She's really she is somebody
who is very, very good, and has
always been very good, at
creating comfort.
You know, I remember when the
word hygge started being bandied
around for the first time and
we were like, mom, you've been
doing this for like decades.
You are literally hygge, um,
and you know, I do think it is.
So, yeah, I think comfort is a
really big word for me.
My challenge has been in
allowing discomfort, and because
I think that comfort is amazing
and we need comfort, we need to
be comforted by each other, we
need to be able to hold each
other when we're going through
something really, really
difficult.
But actually all of the wisdom
is in the discomfort and yeah
this.
Speaker 1: I mean one of my
favorite phrases, as I'm when
I'm working with people, is
comfort in the discomfort, and
really that is the work.
So just listening to you there
say that the challenge has been
sitting with the discomfort, I
mean that speaks volumes to me.
And also to wave a flag of
awareness actually I hadn't
really thought about it in those
terms and I hadn't really
thought about it in those terms.
But that thing about being in a
room and being able to sense
into other people's levels of
comfort emotionally sort of in
terms of psychological safety,
but physically like it's
literally uncomfortable for me.
If I see someone and they've
got the cushion and it's kind of
like only half supporting them,
and I just I mean actually I
mean I don't necessarily do it
in a really lovely, generous way
Is that better?
And then it is so it is.
I think it's to do with like
having high empathy or literally
feeling someone else's physical
discomfort, yeah, but that
thing about being able to sit
with discomfort, I mean.
Speaker 2: I mean this is so
live for me right now.
As I kind of mentioned at the
start, I've been going through a
really, really hard time in my
life.
I've been going through a real
dark night of the soul, a sort
of extended dark night of the
soul, and I'm very lucky that I
have a foundation for that work.
I've been working with Mary
Kennedy in Ireland on the Celtic
wheel for the last five years I
think six years a bit longer in
Ireland on the Celtic wheel for
the last five years I think six
years a bit longer and she
really taught me about the
wisdom of the darkness and going
into the darkness and not
fearing these dark nights of the
soul and trusting them as a
kind of alchemical, alchemical,
alchemical process.
And there have been these kind
of multiple times in my life
where I have had this deep, deep
sense that that's what I need
to do.
And this time, yeah, this time
these whispers came about four
days ago and, you know, to give
you a little bit of background,
I was I'm burnt out.
You know I'm burnt out.
You know I'm burnt out, I'm
tired, and I've been, I think,
running in some ways running
away from a very big thing for
the last five years, which I can
, I'm really happy to talk about
.
Um, I didn't know I was running
from this thing.
That was not, you know, I just
thought I was doing really great
things in the world.
And then, you know, after on
the back of doing exhale
festival, which was huge in
October, I went straight into
creating the community almost
immediately afterwards, and then
I kind of crashed earlier this
week and I realized, wow, I'm
just so.
I have neglected myself so
badly, I've self-sacrificed so
much over the last year.
I don't have anything for me, I
don't have anything left for me
, and that was heartbreaking.
It was actually really, really
heartbreaking and I thought this
is just burned out.
It gets a little bit better
every day.
It takes me about a week to
recover from it, and so it went
on for about a week and then
yesterday, the day yeah,
yesterday I just plummeted.
I spiraled really downwards and
the night before I'd gone to
bed with my partner and suddenly
these two huge things.
Because I'd slowed down,
because I'd consciously started
saying not now, not now, I'd say
it out loud, you know, not now,
not now, I'd say it out loud,
you know, not now.
Because I was, I've been in
this kind of hyper creative way
of being for the last five years
where I'm constantly creating
and constantly problem solving
and these really big things,
that my brain was totally stuck
in that way of being a problem
solving all the time, so in that
kind of hyper masculine driving
forward without any kind of
healthy feminine underlying it.
So I went out walking sorry, I'm
jumping around a bit in the
timeline here.
Uh, I went out walking.
I live in a beautiful valley,
in Stroud, and I went out
walking and I walked
intentionally very slowly and
for two hours and I sat and I
just, and I, you know, my brain
was just going, going, going,
saying you could do this, you
could do that, you could do this
, and just consciously, instead
of shutting it down and saying
stop, I just was saying not yet,
not yet.
And a day of doing that really
did sort of it did.
It was like making an
appointment with it.
They were like OK, ok, we've
said not yet enough, we get it
right, we'll stop, we'll stop
now, and then the next two days,
yeah, the next couple of days
after that was sort of a real
slowing down, but I started to
feel very depressed.
I started to feel really down,
very lost, very kind of, you
know, a lot of very frightening,
very, very intense emotions, of
very frightening, very, very
intense emotions.
And then, kind of fourth day,
went to bed with my partner and
started and these two huge
bombshells arrived in my
consciousness, you know, as
always at the most ridiculous
time when you're trying to go to
sleep in your knackered um.
You know, it was 11 o'clock at
night and I was lying awake till
three o'clock going.
Oh, wow, I have some really big
feelings around these things
and I hadn't even thought about
this.
Um, and then yesterday was very
bad, you know, my partner was.
I was messaging him, saying I'm
in a really, really dark place
like I'm I don't know where this
is coming from and I just made
a decision to stop everything,
to put everything down, to not
have any distractions, not have
any comforts.
And you know, I was just in my
loft and I was moving around
where I was sitting, but I was
just sort of sitting and being
and just really leaning in and
and, and you know, obviously
tears came and despair came and
I wrote down all of the emotions
that came with it.
They were so big, you know, so
so big, um, and I realized that
for the last five years I went
through kind of an early-ish
menopause and so I was 40, I'm
45 now and I'm done I you know,
I've been through it, and I
realized that I had been so good
at convincing myself that I
didn't want children that I'd
never allowed myself to grieve
for the fact that actually I
would have really liked to have
children.
I just didn't meet the right
person at the right time.
And that was heartbreaking.
And it was actually when I was
in bed reading a book and there
was a woman had a baby in it,
and I just started crying and I
thought and my partner was
beside me it's like we would
have made really good parents
like we would have been.
You know I'm a really maternal
person.
I have multiple sort of.
You know, I've always been able
to love children as if they're
my own.
It's been, I think, one of my
most amazing gifts that I was
given by whoever puts us on the
earth and people are always so,
I guess, flabbergasted that I
haven't had my own children.
But the fact of the matter is
that I wasn't ever in the right
relationship to do it.
When I was able to do it and by
the time I met Ed, we didn't
realize it, but it was too late,
like it was already too late.
So there was that and I was
like, was like god, I've just
never allowed myself to go there
.
And then I was kind of
reflecting back on this crazy
period of five years that I've
had where I created Good Grief,
you know, with Lucy and Liesl,
and I created Exhale and Wild
and Well, you know as well, all
of these things were mothering.
They were all I was putting,
all of my love and all of my
desire to grow, help people to
grow my, you know, my, you know
sort of giving people love,
acceptance, comfort, guidance.
And I realized, ah, that's why
that and that's why I have this
unhealthy relationship with it
sometimes it becomes that kind
of you know you're a mother.
Speaker 1: It tips you know into
complete self-sacrifice and
yeah, and I'm so curious that,
in the sort of bit of time as I
was kind of reflecting on our
conversation because we didn't
discuss what we were going to
talk about we left it really
open and fluid and that, of all
the things that I have in my
little memory, sort of box of
things that I'd love to explore
on the podcast that this topic
should be the one that comes up
so naturally when I think of
this conversation with you and
this.
So something has arisen, and it
is this deep, deep sense that,
um, these powerful insights come
to us at the time when we're
able to cope, when we're able to
look at them from different
angles, when we're able to
create enough space around it
that they don't subsume us, even
though it's obviously been
incredibly hard for you.
I also hear that you've
employed the skills and the
techniques that you have, you've
looked in your toolbox and
you've supported yourself in in
whatever ways you've been able
to, and, and so my overwhelming
feelings I'm listening to you is
wanting to honor everything
that you've been feeling and to
honor everything that you've
done to hold the space for
everything that you've been
feeling.
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2: Incredibly powerful
listening to you it is, you know
, when I reflected on it this
morning.
And you know, the wisdom comes
when the wisdom is ready.
You're right, and I don't think
I could have it needed to come
when it came.
And the thing about really
trusting the darkness and going
into the darkness is that it
freaks other people out it.
You know, this is a.
This piece of wisdom has been
probably the most life-changing
of any that I've ever found,
which is trust your darkness,
trust your soul, trust your
soul's need to go through that
tunnel.
And you know I can't run from
those feelings forever, or I can
, but I'm just gonna.
You know, I'll be repeatedly
burning out.
I'll be doing things for a lot,
of, a lot of the wrong reasons
a lot of the time.
And it happened to me one
another time in my life where I
really went into the darkness
like that, that what we call in
the Celtic wheel, a Samhain
moment.
So you pronounce it differently
here.
I can never remember it, so I
think you pronounce it um, and
that was when I left an abusive
relationship, um, midway through
the Covid pandemic.
And again I had two very
amazing.
My partner had two amazing
children who I was very close to
and who I had a very you know,
I was their stepmom and, yeah,
and when I left that
relationship it was at the start
of the second lockdown and I
was living here on my own.
So I was thrust into Samhain.
Really, you know, I'd made this
decision, I had done, you know,
and I had the kind of I don't
know if you know the mythology
around the Kalyuk the witch, who
is?
She sort of is, she's an
archetype, but she's the crone
and she shakes you and says you
can't live like this anymore and
she kind of is, you know it's
she governs the time between
Samhain and Imbolc and then
Bridget, the maiden, takes over
and it's about birth and new
beginnings.
So the collier will shake you
and the collier shook me very
hard and I knew, you know,
people were so worried about me
here on my own going through
this experience and I knew I was
absolutely fine and I actually
felt a sense of yeah, fear, uh,
relief at being able to just go
into it, because I just knew
there was just going to be so
much in here that is going to
completely transform me If I
honor us with the time and the
space to just feel the really
intense feelings, to go through
it all and it was really intense
, like I don't know if you've
ever been around somebody who's
come out of an abusive
relationship.
It's really you feel every
single feeling and you're also
replaying the entire
relationship with the right lens
on and it's exhausting.
Speaker 1: Actually, it's really
tiring and you're re-seeing
yourself through that lens as
well, aren't you, of course?
Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: So I knew, I knew
that that process was going to
be one of the most important of
my life and I knew that nobody
else could go through it with me
.
I had really great friends who,
if I was having or and my mom,
if I was get really emotionally
overloaded, if I was flooded, I
could pick up the phone and say
I'm really flooded right now.
I just need, I just really need
somebody to to hear me.
Um, but mainly it was me, and I
had a.
I had made a five liter thing
of slow gin the winter before
and I was drinking it.
I was allowed to have an egg
cup of slow gin.
If I felt really, really
difficult, I was having, if I
needed a little reward, I could
have a roly and a little bit of
slow gin and that was my.
That you know those.
And walking, walking every day.
You know, I felt this whenever
I'm in a dark place, I feel this
intense connection to this land
around me and it holds me when
I, when I need it and it's done
it this week again and I I
forget these things.
You know we are.
It's so easy to forget that
this process works, you know.
And talking to my partner
yesterday and saying, god, I
just, I really hope I don't keep
on spiraling and fear, you know
, and that is the fear, because
the darkness is terrifying yeah,
because you don't become afraid
of the fear itself yeah, yeah,
yeah.
So it has been an amazing
process and I'm here kind of on
the other side.
You know feeling totally you
know when.
If you had to see me yesterday,
I couldn't have done this
yesterday.
I was a mess, you know, it was
really a.
And here I today, I just feel
calm and I feel it's like it is
really like a storm, you know,
and it's like coming through
that storm and you do have.
You have grown in wisdom and
you have, but I couldn't have
had that wisdom from everything
going right or anything.
You know, I it had to be
Samhain moment and I think that
that is part of what I want.
To gift people with exhale is
to really provide a space where
they can go to those places with
the support and the community
around it, and I think that that
is definitely and has always
been a part of, and that's good
grief, you know, know, you know,
good grief, the work we've done
.
with good grief, I sort of yeah,
it's really interesting when
you use that word comfort,
because it's kind of a two
pronged thing.
For me it's.
Speaker 1: it's really
empowering people to go to those
dark places, those difficult
places, and also providing
comfort at the same time and and
and I think that phrase comfort
in the discomfort as well
there's something so for me,
there's something so profound
about being able to sit in a
space where, where I feel
absolutely, um, out of my depths
, overwhelmed, wracked with
doubts, flooded with fear, and
then be able to create just that
little bit of space around me
that can hold all of that.
Hold all of that without trying
to judge it, shove it away,
shut it down, change it in any
way, but simply hold it.
And that, for me, is what
comfort in the discomfort can
also be, can also mean, and it
can mean those times when we are
, you know, exploring, making a
fundamental change in a belief
system or a habit, a pattern
that we have, and kind of
noticing like, oh, this is
really uncomfortable, and kind
of being able to sort of laugh
with ourselves through that.
But I think it has meaning
right in the depths of darkness
too.
Yeah, it's so interesting, as
I'm listening to you Aisling,
because I've just recorded this
weekend's episode of the podcast
, which means I think I'm going
to have to put this one out
straight afterwards, really,
because the episode I've just
recorded is an extract from my
journal that I wrote when we
were away in Vietnam over the
winter, including a my darling
girl letter, a letter from my
wise self who writes to me when
I most need her.
And and it was because I'd woken
up one morning completely
flooded with doubt and fear and
like self doubt, largely about
my work.
Actually, it was really really
like.
I mean, I really hammered
myself with some of the thoughts
I was having.
And and the advice, the advice,
the guidance, the wisdom is
always turn toward it.
Turn toward it, sit with it, go
into the dark space, like
whatever the, the kind of the
visual or language is.
And so I did and I've shared
what poured out onto the pages
of my journal and it's like it's
incredibly vulnerable and it
feels like such a beautiful
example of a kind of microcosm
of what you've just described,
which is, you know, one of these
like soul searing episodes.
But they can also come to us in
these, like these flashes as
well, where we can just be
floored by something and then
having the tools to work through
, like okay, so what's?
What's my way?
Nature, get out, walking,
journaling, phoning a friend
who's not going to try and fix
us, you know, really accessing
these tools that we have
available to all of us, and then
understanding that we have the
capacity to hold space for what
we are experiencing and that it
will pass, but we don't try and
force it to.
Um, yeah, it just feels I'm.
I'm curious about the, the fact
that these two episodes seem to
be sitting so closely together,
particularly because there is
so much going on in the world,
yeah, and we're so influenced by
the macro conditions yeah, I
think that's a huge part of it.
Speaker 2: I really do.
I think what happened to me
this week is just a kind of a,
like you say, a microclimate of
of what's out there, what's
happening out there.
And yeah, we are going through
a.
You know, my great teacher mary
always says we're going through
a collective sound on the
planet and actually we have to
be able to meet us and we're not
going to be able to meet us
unless we can meet the Samhains
in our own life.
And you know, it's so easy to
keep on running from them.
And it's when you find the gap
and you know, I know that's a
great saying from Buddhism of
finding the gap.
It's hard to find the gap in
this modern world.
You know, I almost felt when I
was out walking and going
through, when I commit myself to
these sound moments, I don't
have children, which ironically
is, you know, makes means that I
can do them, because if you
have young children, you don't,
you can't have sound moment.
You know you're always on if
you're.
You know there are so many
people in the world who don't
have the financial.
You know they have to be
working, they can't, they don't
have the space to have.
So I think that in a way it is
a gift, it's an honor to be able
to have the space to go into
these periods that I have, where
, you know, people find it
really, they find it weird.
You know, I think a lot of
people think that means that's
bad.
You know, we haven't seen her
for three days.
We haven't heard from her for
three days.
She's very quiet.
Like you know, we do have this
societal belief that that's bad,
that equals bad.
Somebody's in trouble if
they've gone quiet.
Speaker 1: And the labelling
that comes from that.
But yeah, I mean, we are
conditioned to want to feel good
and it makes us feel bad if
other people feel bad.
So when those around us can't
hold space for our own you know
for what we're feeling and it
makes them feel bad, then we
tend to distract ourselves and
turn toward what they're feeling
, and so you get this kind of
ricochet of like um, and so then
we once more deny what we're
feeling because I was making you
feel bad, so I'll, I'll, I'll,
g myself up and distract myself,
and I think that sort of comes
back again to this sort of
comfort versus distraction that
often what comfort can look like
is really distracting ourselves
from what we're experiencing
rather than holding ourselves
tenderly yeah, I do wonder if
you've found that the people who
are able to hold you in these
moments, if they're people
who've also gone to the darkness
and I think that you know
there's that like my mom is very
good at doing it, because I
have we have learned together
about going into the darkness,
you know, and she has seen me go
through this process a number
of times.
Speaker 2: She trusts us, she
trusts that I know.
Speaker 1: Oh, do you know?
That was the word that I just
had.
So she and she trusts you.
Speaker 2: And she's been
through it herself in the last
few years, you know, so I can.
I think you have to choose your
people very wisely when you're
going, and you know, and a sound
moment can be a choice.
It can be something that you
know, like for me it was leaving
a relationship, it could be
leaving a job, it could be
selling a house.
Sound moments can also come at
you.
You know, it can be a death, it
can be a health diagnosis.
It can be a death.
It can be a health diagnosis.
It can be somebody breaking up
with you, it could be a
financial loss.
You know the the wisdom applies
to all of these situations, but
I think it is really important
to choose your people, to choose
somebody.
I think, when you're first
starting to experiment with it
because it is an experiment, you
know, and it is it's such a
natural thing, though, when you
really like, you're saying like
when you're first starting to
experiment with it, because it
is an experiment, you know, and
it is.
It's such a natural thing,
though, when you really like,
you're saying like, when you
really commit to it, and you're
like okay, this is what I'm
doing and it's the great, you
know.
Auden poem.
You know, stop all the clocks,
cut off the telephone.
That is really what he's
describing.
You know that he's going into
that darkness.
But you do sort of need to
choose your people and I think
initially you need to choose
somebody who is not afraid of us
, who's, you know, not afraid of
seeing you, really what looked
like falling apart and but I,
you know a, I'm here as the
poster child for it.
I was falling apart yesterday
and today I am.
I feel, you know, I feel taller
and wiser.
Speaker 1: I feel there's
something here about the way
that we pathologize emotion and
you know I'm as I'm listening to
you and I'm sure as others are
listening.
You know, as I'm listening to
you and I'm sure as others are
listening, I'm flicking through
the Rolodex of memories in my
own life of times when I have
not known how to accommodate
these Sowan moments and just
poured myself into work.
That's always been my drug of
choice, or alcohol, that's been
another one as well.
Lots of things, um, and you
know, sort of poured myself into
something in order to distract
myself.
And I have those memories of
where I really began to learn
and understand what I was able
to accommodate, what I was able
to hold space for within myself,
without, without sort of
freaking out, you know, without
kind of like thinking, oh, my
god, I literally am losing
myself.
And um, and I know, I know that
there have been times in my life
, if I'd gone to my GP, I'd have
been probably given
antidepressants to take myself
off to bed, because that was
legitimate, you could, you could
go to bed if you weren't very
well, and so then I'd started
getting ill, because your body
will respond to what's going on
in your own head, um, and then
learning learning that I was
actually able to ride these
experiences and I think what
you're you know, listening to
your point around choosing your
people wisely the most important
thing is someone who isn't
going to try and fix you and is
also going to stand beside you.
So if you do need to reach out,
if you do need that extra you
know loving pair of hands, that
that they are there for you
takes a huge amount of courage.
I think it does allow us to go
through that it really does.
Speaker 2: And you have to meet
the victim.
That is the other thing that
I'd say, that it is in, it is in
the moment where you have
really met the most vulnerable,
most in pain part of you that
something switches, that
something changes and you yeah,
that was another great thing
that Mari taught me was you
can't do this without meeting
the victim and you have to do it
.
You're a victim, you know the
victim in you.
You have to meet that and you
have to meet it with compassion
and openness.
And it is so funny the minute
that you do that and you have to
meet it with compassion, um,
and openness, and it is so funny
the minute that you do that.
And every time I've kind of
gone through one of these
periods when I really really
meet the victim and I mean
really like I'm there, it's like
why me, the this is awful, like
all the things we're told that
we're not supposed to say you
know really, um, it's after that
that something clicks, because
that you know it's, for for many
of us we were things like,
things happened to us and we
were never able to be seen or
heard.
You know, and I do think that I
hear people say a lot.
I heard a friend say it the
other day.
I don't like this part of me.
I don't like it when I feel like
this, I don't like it.
You know I don't.
I just I know I'm not, I know
I'm not supposed to be the
victim and we're sort of.
I think we've been told that a
lot in society now is that you
know that women need to be less
victim-like.
We need to be less victim-like
and we need to be less victim
like and we need to be strong
and empowered and, you know,
brave and courageous.
But actually, if you are really
genuinely going to go through a
transformative process, then
you cannot go on that journey
without meeting the victim and
in in um in parts work, we would
talk about exiled parts, so
parts of us that we have shunned
um maybe you know, either
because we don't like how they
make us feel or they don't.
Speaker 1: We don't like other
parts of us don't like how they
make them feel, um, or because
we want to keep them safe,
potentially.
But we can exile these parts of
us, um, and really what we're
always looking to do is to to
make, to bring all of the parts
in so that we feel whole again.
But I heard, um, I was talking
to someone recently and they
shared about some training that
they'd been on, where someone
had come and spoken, and I am
absolutely certain that they
were talking from their heart,
they were intending this to be
useful and valuable in some way,
but they talked about naming
the sort of shadow part of
themselves, you know, the part,
the, the kind of or the kind of
inner critic.
I think would have been their
sort of language, naming the
inner critic.
And and it was, oh, moaning
mini, let's corner that, yeah.
And and it was this and then
sort of saying, like, right out,
you go moaning mini, shunning
this part of them, and actually
it like, as I was listening,
like a little bit of my heart
broke because I just thought
where is Minnie, like where is
she now?
Just sort of wandering around,
you know, trying to do the thing
that she believes she's here to
do Keeping this person safe by
letting them know all the things
that they're doing wrong.
You know that she believes
that's her job.
So exiling her doesn't stop
that.
It just means that she feels
even more separate from from
this person and, yeah, it kind
of it.
It did sort of break my heart a
bit because and listening to
you when you said about like,
turning to the victim the victim
is, I recognize, is a, is a
word from, from the methodology,
the kind of the landscape that
you you're inhabiting, but
turning towards them with, like,
absolute compassion and
kindness and listening deeply to
what it is that is really
hurting them, yeah, and then you
can bring comfort.
Yeah, then you can help to heal
the burden, the wound, whatever
you know, whatever language we
want to use here yeah and this
is.
Speaker 2: You know, I know that
there are different types of
depression, but the vast
majority of people are suffering
from a kind of depression that
is not a, that we're not able to
go to the darkness that we're
kind of skirting on the outside
of it and hovering, hovering
over it.
So that, you know, I had
depression multiple times in my
life and I can see in retrospect
now that the reason I got
depressed is because I wasn't
able to trust this process that
I was, I was hovering on the
outside of it and I was hovering
there for as long as it took
for me to realize what was going
on, you know, which was long
periods of time sometimes.
And I do, you know, I, I do
know that there are different
aspects of depression and
different types of depression,
but I do think, for the majority
of people who have depressive
episodes in their lives, it is
about this inability to really
really go to these dark parts of
ourselves and come through the
tunnel.
You kind of get stuck in the
middle of it, you get stuck in
the darkest part of it and you
can't go backwards and you can't
go forwards, and that's
depression, you know.
It is that having that faith,
that trust which our ancestors
understood on such a deep level
that if you keep on moving
towards the darkness, you get to
the other side.
You know you get to the light
at the other side, but that is
frightening.
It's frightening because you
don't know how long the tunnel
is, you don't know how dark it
is in the middle.
All of these things are
unknowns and it isn't.
You know, I didn't know
yesterday how long this was
going to take.
I mean, I was amazed this
morning.
I was, you know, like what.
That is just, and that is crazy
.
Um, it has taken me long, much,
much longer.
You know period of time it's
taken me, you know, once like
six to nine weeks, which is hard
, really hard on you.
One thing I would say about it
it's about knowing and we come
back to that word comfort again.
It's about knowing how to
soothe yourself as well and
knowing when to step back,
because this is deep work.
You know it's deep work.
It's, it's, it is.
We all are able to do it.
I, you know I don't think I'm
in any way special.
I think this is actually very
inherent.
You know it's deep inside us,
this knowledge of how to do this
, but you need to find the
things that will help to soothe
you, whether that's like binge
watching a comedy on Netflix or
walking in the woods or writing
in your journal, having a shower
.
I always I mean during these
times I would be having like
four or five showers a day, you
know, just to.
It's a very calming.
It.
It's about being able to go
through, go into these very dark
places, go through this very
intense dark night of the soul
process and keep your nervous
system regulated at the same
time.
And that looks really different
for everybody.
Um, yeah, there are kind of the
three prongs I would say is you
, you're the only one on the
journey?
Like it's the heroine's journey
?
Right, it's a journey inside.
Uh, you do need to be able to
regulate your nervous system and
you need your phone of friends.
Like you need your people who
and it's a small, it's usually a
small number of people, even
maybe just one um who's there to
help you articulate what's
going on, to help you, to
co-regulate with you.
When you're having a real like
moment and they come, like I
have been, I usually sit on the
floor when I'm having one of
those and I'll just kind of
almost kind of like grip onto
the floor and just be like, yeah
, this is big, this is, this is
a big one, like contractions, I
guess, emotional contraction.
Speaker 1: Well, it's like you
are birthing something.
I mean that's I'm I'm mindful
of using that term, but it is
about releasing something, and
not something that is good or
something that is bad.
It's simply the act of release,
because the constraint, the
tightness, is what causes pain
and the softening, the releasing
, is what brings ease and
comfort.
Um, I think there's something
really important in here as well
, and I love, I love those three
points that you've just made,
and and the middle one, the one
around you know, understanding
what it is that's going to help
you regulate your system.
That's why we do the practices,
that's why we meditate, maybe
every day, maybe every few days,
maybe once a once a week,
whatever it is, but we build the
muscle.
It's why we journal, even if we
haven't really got much to say.
We take ourselves out into
nature, you know, even though it
might um you know, we're just
sort of feeling all right, you
know, but we take ourselves out
and we allow ourselves a moment
to notice what's going on,
Because it's those practices
that then enable us to be able
to get that stuff out of our
toolkit when we are ready.
That stuff out of our toolkit
when we are ready.
I remember once with Anton, my
husband it was in our old house,
so it's got to be six or seven
years ago, I think having just
this flood of so much of what
we're talking about, this kind
of the existential crises of who
am I and really like really
struggling, really not knowing
quite how to hold it, what to do
with it, just just feeling
utterly lost.
And then I went down into the
kitchen and I just stood in the
doorway and I looked at him and
he looked at me and it was
obvious like I was about to say
something like really like
massive.
And he looked at me and then I
went, I have the tools and I
know how to use them.
And then I turned around, took
myself upstairs and I was like,
right, I lit a candle, I burnt
some Palo Santo, I ran a bath, I
journaled, I listened to some
soothing music and my system
came back into regulation.
But it needed, the kind of it
needed like eye contact for me
to like to go like oh, hang on,
I do know how to do this and
that I remember that moment so
vividly because it was like,
right.
This is why, this is why I need
to keep using these compassion
based practices, whatever they
might look like, you know, know
for people who really, you know,
love yoga, you know for them,
or kijong I never know how to
say that um, or tai chi, or
whatever the things might be.
That's why these practices are
so vital, because then they're
there.
Speaker 2: They're there when we
our grasp on things maybe feels
a little bit more tenuous.
Yeah, because you are, you know
, you're talking about something
that feels like death, you know
, and this is very intense for
us.
It is a death in a way, because
when you go through these kind
of transformative moments, a
part of you is dying, a part of
you is transforming and won't be
the same afterwards.
And I, you know, I think, the
tool, you know, having your
toolkit, knowing what's in your
toolkit, I sort of have two
toolkits.
I have one, that's my regular
toolkit, which is when I have
energy and I'm I'm, you know, I
have, I'm not exhausted.
And I, which is when I have
energy and I'm, you know I have,
I'm not exhausted, and I'm like
, yeah, amazing, I'm going to do
a one hour breathwork session,
I'm going to do a vinyasa, I'll
do all these things.
The reality is, when I'm going
through one of these moments,
one of these Samhain episodes,
it's about what I can do and,
for me, walking is the one thing
I can do.
No matter what, like, no matter
how tired I am, no matter what
the weather is, no matter any of
that, I will be able to get out
and I will be able to walk, and
I'm incredibly grateful to live
in a place where I have amazing
walking from my doorstep but
apart from that it's showers and
you know it is the things that
are accessible because you are
not going to have huge
motivation to be able to
journaling.
I always journal, you can tell.
I mean, I really hate to think
you know when I die what people
are going to think of me,
because every single journal
I've got has been written during
some absolutely like oh my god
clusterfuck moment in my life
laughing, because I've often had
the thought of, oh my god, so
what if my son actually reads
what I wrote?
Speaker 1: yeah, but you know
that's part of the discomfort,
isn't it?
Because it's well, I'm still
holding space for the woman that
I was, who wrote.
I'm pointing over my shoulder
all my life, yeah, yeah, the
woman you know who wrote those
things and who felt those things
, and I am choosing, really
actively, choosing to hold her
with compassion and with love
and without judgment, and I am
trusting that I can be trusted
to have done that for myself and
therefore I am trusting that
someone else opening my journal
doesn't then fall into a pity
spiral for me.
Do you see?
Do you see what I mean?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2: yeah, yeah,
absolutely, because yeah, no, it
makes complete sense to me.
These are not journals that
you're writing to show people
what your inner workings were,
you know.
They're not journals that are
there to record your life.
Really, you know and I realized
that a while ago you know that
actually it's OK if I don't
write in a journal for a year.
I obviously don't need to.
Like you know, I don't have
anything that I need to work out
on the page and when I do, I
know I know there is not one
part of me that doesn't reach
for the pen or for my keypad or
whatever.
However, I decide to write on
that day.
I just know, and that's how I
knew this time is I want to
write and I can only walk.
There is something going on
here, like it's there's
something wanting to.
Speaker 1: I, I think that's
really really beautiful,
actually, this, um, the
realization that we don't
necessarily know that something
is afoot until we observe what
our body is leading us toward.
You know this kind of like the
wisdom of the body that says
just need to get outside.
It's like okay, okay, so what
is going on here?
And and this brings me back to
what I, what I wrote in my
journal, actually, um, in the,
the letter, um from my wise self
to to me, in fact, can I find
it?
She says something like it is
this tension that drew me to you
.
I want you to listen to me, my
love, because I was feeling all
of the tension but had got and
that's with all of my skill, all
of my experience, all of my
education in this stuff.
I was lying in bed thinking, oh
shit, I feel like shit, like
that was all I could sort of
think, like and I'm in a really
beautiful place in the world and
my son's in the, in the hotel
sort of bedroom next door, and
like why am I feeling like this,
this is, this is shit.
I'm so sorry for all the
swearing, but oh god.
Speaker 2: I could have gone.
Speaker 1: I could have gone a
lot worse and and and then shit,
this letter, this, this love
letter, kind of welled up in me
and it was just like right, grab
, get the book, get the pen,
like see what is being said.
So she spoke through what my
body was telling me and and I
think that's such a lovely bit
of wisdom there Aisling, that
you know, if we find ourselves
binge watching Netflix, maybe
drinking an extra glass or two
or more of wine than we might
ordinarily do, um, you know,
working much longer hours than
really is quite necessary, you
know, really paying attention to
that stuff, because that can
also be such a marker that
something is calling to us and
it could be an invitation to
turn inward and to sit in the
darkness, as you, as you say, or
to sit inside ourselves and see
what is asking for our
attention yeah, beautifully put.
Speaker 2: That's exactly what
it is.
It's an and it's up to you.
You know you might not be ready
for it right now, might be a
year, it might be two years, but
it will happen and it's really.
It is this great power really
that we have, that's available
to all of us, is to consciously
choose it and consciously, you
know, and I don't know how
conscious it is at the time, it
feels more conscious afterwards.
Speaker 1: No, I mean, when I
think of my own experiences,
they've often sort of blindsided
me.
But what has been conscious has
been the turning toward it that
has become the conscious part.
Um, so the experience arises.
This is my, my experience of
rises.
And then it's been how do I
choose to tend to this?
Speaker 2: yeah, that is it.
Yeah, definitely, and it's.
I just love it.
I think it's the most beautiful
thing.
And when we have this context
for it, in nature as well, all
around us, you know, when we see
that the trees are never, you
know, we look at them in winter
and we think, oh god,
everything's so dead, it's so
barren, it's so gray and it's
not, you know, like it's.
There's so much going on under
the surface.
Yeah, and we have to.
We hear this phrase a lot, but
we have to root down, to rise up
, and reaching down as those
sour that is where you're in
those sound times in your life
is rooting down into the
darkness.
And you know, our ancestors did
know, they knew they.
You know everything starts in
the darkness and it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think if it
was one piece of wisdom that I
could give to everybody, that
would be it beautiful, beautiful
Ashley, I can't believe we've
been talking, yeah, an hour and
I know you need to, you need to
to go, so I um just to say thank
you.
Thank you so much for bringing
this, for bringing yourself.
I know everybody else can't see
you, but you are literally
glowing this warmth and this
light inside you and it feels
really, really powerful to be
sitting with you and to be
listening to something that is
so raw and so near.
Speaker 2: I think it was meant
to be.
Oh, you're very welcome.
I think I was meant to be here
with you today.
I had no idea that this was
coming.
I had no idea that you know.
I think that you and I were
meant to talk about it today and
I hope that there is maybe
somebody who listens to this,
who is going through one of
these moments in their lives and
and finds comfort in it and
trust.
I think, as women, we are
holders of the darkness, you
know very often, and it is our
greatest power yeah so thank you
, it's been wonderful oh yeah,
beautiful.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much,
ashley, yeah not at all, thank
you.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna, yeah, just
be still, have a quick chat now
with a quick meeting now, and
just just be gentle and still
and enjoy that, because that
it's the calm after the storm,
it's the calm seas, and it feels
so good because you really do
think at the time, oh, I'm never
not going to feel normal again,
um, but yeah, I'm really going
to enjoy the stillness and my
brain has stopped trying to
problem solve all the time.
It's so interesting, such an
interesting part of it.
Speaker 1: So that's the sinking
into the body coming out of the
, the, the brain, sort of the
head, trying to resolve
everything and also just to sort
of link us all the way back to
what we where we first started,
this concept of comfort, that
this idea of allowing yourself
these, you know this, this
meeting that you need to have
now, and then this conscious
time of tending to yourself in a
easeful, gentle, generous way.
That feels like deep comfort to
me that feels like deep comfort
to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure,
I uh and I hope you have a.
Really you go off now and do
something super comfortable for
yourself.
Speaker 1: I am gonna go and, um
, do some yoga.
Actually, I'm going to a yoga
class, so that feels like a
really beautiful thing to be
doing after this conversation
yeah, nice, enjoy.
Speaker 2: And yeah, it's been
gorgeous chatting to you.
As always, henny, I love us, I
love our chat.
They're so, just yeah, so deep,
so soulful and so full of love
and I just, yeah, I love.
Speaker 1: You're amazing,
you're absolutely okay, I'll end
it on that.
Yeah, let's end it on that
always, always head on a high.
So Aisling and I were obviously
laughing at the end and it
really was the most glorious
conversation.
It felt like we went into some
very deep places and, as I've
listened back before sharing it,
my feeling really is that if
you are facing into your own
experience of sewing or however
you might like to term it and
you feel you need some guidance,
some support, some help, then
do reach out.
Reach out to whoever your
people are, or reach out to your
GP, reach out to whoever you
instinctively know is going to
best support you.
And hopefully you have found
some comfort in what Aisling has
shared and, as ever, I would
love to hear your reflections
and I send you a hug and a wave.