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Season 4 Joyce Harper is Professor of Reproductive Science at the Institute for Women’s Health, University College London, author, public speaker, scientist and host of the podcast Why Didn’t Anyone Tell Me This? Together with expert guests and people with lived experience, this podcast offers practical tools to help you build a life of good health and happiness. www.joyceharper.com Instagram, TikTok: @profjoyceharper Facebook: Global Women Connected
Joyce Harper (00:02)
Hi, I'm Joyce Harper and I want to welcome you to season four of my podcast, Why
Didn't Anyone Tell Me This? Together with expert guests and those with lived
experiences, we will give you some tools to empower you to live a life of good health
and happiness.
Joyce Harper (00:22)
Today I'm joined by the remarkable Sanju Pal, whose fight for justice has sparked a
national conversation about women's health and equality in the workplace. This
episode will be particularly valuable for anyone living with endometriosis, PMOS,
PMDD, fibroids, menopause related symptoms, or any other gynaecological condition
that is affecting them in the workplace, as well as employers, managers, and HR
professionals.
Who want to create healthier and more inclusive workplaces. After developing severe
endometriosis and undergoing surgery, Sanju was dismissed from her job at Accenture
whilst recovering. What followed was a seven-year legal battle that led to a landmark
court ruling in January 2026 recognizing her endometriosis as a disability under the
Equality Act 2010. But Accenture have appealed and the case continues.
After listening to this episode, if you want fairer working conditions for anyone
experiencing a gynaecological condition, there are some actions we would love you to
do. Please sign the petition. Write to your MP.
I wrote to Kemi Badenoch and she has replied, so I'm getting that conversation going.
Please donate to the crowdfunding and join us at the Royal Courts on the 10th and 11th
of November 2026. And let's work on education of employers. I do not expect every line
manager to understand women's health, but I would love to see women's health
ambassadors in every company who do understand our issues and can support us.
Joyce Harper (00:01.561)
Welcome, Sanju.
Sanju (00:04.462)
Joyce, what a joy. You are living and breathing epitome of joy and here I am with you and
I'm so delighted. Thank you for having me. It means the world to me.
Joyce Harper (00:15.493)
Well, I'm really excited to talk to you t today, but we are going to get onto a very heavy
topic about what you've been through. So let's start by can you tell us about your life so
far and what led you to become an endo warrior?
Sanju (00:30.944)
Yeah, I mean, what a question to start with. And I think I have to say that I've always
been a warrior for justice. And that, I think, stemmed from being able to have been born
and brought up in London, but go to a very rural part of India, Bengal, from a young age
and see huge deprivation and see the stark contrast in living conditions, in education
opportunities, in life chances and that then compelled me to set up the education
charity that I still run called Rise and that looks at ensuring that all young people have
the opportunity to fulfil their potential and that is looking at justice for these young
people and I can't imagine not having that in my life like not being a warrior for justice.
Obviously it started in education and that's pretty much because I did the Teach First
program and I need to give a big shout out to them. know, what an incredible
organization that enabled me for two years to go through this leadership development
program in an inner city London school and turn around the attainment for these young
people and they fell in love with maths. I can you believe it?
There were young people who obviously had been let down by the system and this
program came along, gave me a chance to be a teacher, which I was for two years, and
that's what led me to care hugely about education and rights of young people and
educational opportunities of young people. So yeah, I've always been a warrior for
justice. I don't think I thought in my life plan would be a warrior for justice for those with
endometriosis, but that's how things turned out that I was already a bit of a fighter to
begin with.
Joyce Harper (02:23.823)
Yeah, thank goodness. Yes, being a fighter is is really a amazing skill that it's so
important that we have people like you around. So you've you've mentioned we've
mentioned endometriosis. So endometriosis is something that you've been living with.
Just for those that don't know what it is, we I have done a podcast with Ertan Saridogan,
who's one of the world leaders in endometriosis. So if people want to learn more, they
can find out more about the clinical aspects and treatments, etcetera there. But can
you just start with explaining what endometriosis is and what it was like for you living
with endometriosis? Well still living with endometriosis.
Sanju (03:03.125)
Yeah, endometriosis is a condition with a gynecological source where lining of the
uterus grows outside of the uterus. And in fact, it can be found in many different organs.
And I guess we have to picture the fact that when we menstruate every month and the
tissue bleeds, different parts of our body start bleeding. And so it's a whole body
inflammatory condition. In my case, I had endometrioma, large cysts, growing on my
ovaries and I had to have emergency operation basically to ensure that my uterus
wouldn't twist and that it was quite life-threatening because it was such a large
endometrioma. But there are so many different symptoms. know, mine was debilitating
pain at the time when I was first diagnosed. I had fatigue, nausea, loss of appetite, very
sensitive body. I just, I would say it almost felt like, you know, I would say it was like a
disease. I didn't know how to cope. And that was at its worst. I still have very difficult
symptoms every day, but they are not what they were when I first needed that surgery
and I've done a lot of work on lifestyle, holistic therapies to try and control my condition
and the symptoms. But I know for the millions of women living with this condition in the
UK and globally, that it is debilitating. It makes life very impossible and not just when
you have a period. These symptoms can ebb and flow, they recur, they fluctuate. And
you just don't know. You could wake up one morning and literally feel like you've been
hit by a bus and you can't get out of bed. And even if you sleep, you don't seem to
recover. You're still fatigued. You can have pain that, you know, is sometimes really
hard to describe, but I know that it's been described as sharp stabbing. For me, it feels
like a balloon is growing in my body and I just don't know how to control that sensation.
And, you know, I had that recently, kind of debilitating pain again. And I had an
emergency scan and I've got the end of each growing again. That's just the nature of this
condition. You don't know when you might need to have surgery again.
Joyce Harper (05:31.963)
And and what age did y it first really start affecting your life?
Sanju (05:37.614)
So how old was I mean I don't talk in age Joyce I mean I know I should embrace my age
but I it was 2018 it was summer 2018 when I first started feeling like this is a different
kind of pain this is the kind of pain that is not going away and it's kind of almost always
there. So I was diagnosed, what's that coming up for eight years ago? And at the time I
had private medical healthcare, so it was really in many ways straightforward for me to
go and see a gynaecologist, Dr. O'Caro, he's still my gynaecologist and him tell me that,
or you need immediate surgery because your condition is so serious. And that in itself,
you know, I still, when I talk about it, I find it very difficult to kind of get my head around
because when you're given a diagnosis, go into denial. So when you're given a
diagnosis, you go into denial. my God, I can't speak. When you're given a diagnosis, you
can go into denial. And that's what I did. I wanted to push through, push through the
pain, push through the fatigue, push through what was happening in my body, just
so I could continue to thrive in the workplace. And it's because I've been on this journey
myself that I feel so strongly about this, that we sometimes do not prioritize our health.
We prioritize our career and ambitions over looking after our own body. And
endometriosis, I think, has been named as one of the most painful conditions. It is that,
and it's more than just that. know, when I say it,
I have friends who have thoracic endometriosis growing in their lungs, terrifying,
coughing up blood. It's unimaginable. And we're only beginning to talk about it enough
so that more people are hearing about it.
Joyce Harper (07:29.315)
Do you think we are talking about it? Certainly in my area, lots of people are talking
about in our conversation that we conversations we've had before recording this
podcast. You've made me realise that I'm I'm going to do a mini-series soon about lived
experience. And one of my dearest friends, I talk to almost every day, Jo Gifford, has
really been suffering with those symptoms some of those symptoms you mentioned.
And I'll be I'll be talking to Joe more about that in in the miniseries and other people with
different lived experiences. But as you said, it's so it's so different for every woman, isn't
it? It's it's such a varied shall we call it a disease or disorder? How d how do you refer to
it?
Sanju (08:09.697)
I mean, I do sometimes start saying it's disease. And then I caught myself saying that
the other day and I was like, goodness, how do other women and those with
endometriosis feel about this being called a disease? But is that the way that it will be
taken serious? It is a progressive, non curable disease that is underfunded in research
that is not supported enough at diagnosis. know that. Yes, we've had some recent
developments in tests that can enable diagnosis but waiting times for treatment and
then we get into the area of the workplace where there is a complete lack of equality for
those with endometriosis. It is a disease that's affecting and permeating every aspect of
our lives.
Joyce Harper (08:55.853)
Yeah, and you mentioned the physical symptoms, but what effect does this have on
your psychological well being?
Sanju (09:06.519)
I mean, I think it has absolutely torn me apart in moments. I often talk about the
darkness that has surrounded me in my legal proceedings, but I think I still haven't
really delved into the darkness that surrounded me when I first got the diagnosis and
then I was told that my fertility was going to be affected. And I still don't think I fully
faced into the fact that I'm not going to have biological children. I haven't even really
tried. I did a round of egg freezing that was unsuccessful and I've kind of shut that door.
My heart goes out to all the women with endometriosis or indeed any gynecological
condition that affects fertility because to face into that is a very, very difficult thing
psychologically.
And you're carrying that while you're trying to deal with that diagnosis every single day
and the symptoms every single day, how it's affecting your identity, your ability to
perform. You know, I talk about the fact that when I worked at Accenture, the tagline is
high performance delivered. I stopped being a high performer in the way that I
understood that to be because I couldn't put in those hours anymore. I couldn't, you
know, run around the country as a management consultant anymore. My body wouldn't
let me. Things started shifting and catching up with that emotionally and mentally is so
difficult. And I know now from the thousands of messages I've received that's a similar
thing and it is important to talk about this because we know of stories, very very horrific
stories of women taking their life because of this condition. So it's important to talk
about this as difficult as uncomfortable as it is. It is a mental health journey and
Sanju (11:01.993)
I do know there is some light and hope though. I know that we have an amazing endo
warrior called Michelle D'Owah who has just founded EndoMind because it's looking
specifically at the mental health support needed for those with endometriosis.
Joyce Harper (11:21.851)
And as as you said, you're being told number one, you've got this disease. Well, I think
we should call it let's call it disease. Number two, you're gonna need surgery. Number
three, you might not have kids. I mean that all of that is so much to take on, isn't it? I
mean, how how did you deal with that?
Sanju (11:34.658)
Yeah.
Sanju (11:42.04)
Gosh, well, I didn't initially. I just was like, la la la la la, everything's gonna be okay. Get
back to work soonest, you know? And so that's what happened. So I had a month off
after surgery, but my recovery was slow. And that's the other thing. I think people think,
it's just, it's like keyhole surgery. you know, it's not a lot, but.
They really do a lot when they're in there, right? They're excision of this tissue that's
growing elsewhere. They're chopping out cysts from your ovaries. They're doing all
sorts. It's painful. So for me, a month in, I was like, I need to get back to work. I'm trying
to make senior manager. The next promotion point at Accenture, a really big deal. Once
you make senior manager, it's sort of like, once you made senior manager, you'll go all
the way to managing director. And that's what I thought was my path. I was going to be a
this corporate giant who I had a great sense of belonging with and I went back to work
too soon. And you know have moments particularly like I don't often go to bank that's
where I was based Bank station and I remember like hobbling past the Bank of England
and being like I've got to get home but I've also then got to get up tomorrow morning and
I can barely walk.
But I still was turning up, trying to demonstrate that I was able to do it all until I had to go
back off sick again. And, you know, I was bleeding every single day, the symptoms were
out of control.
I think it's important to say this because I think this comes hand in hand with the denial
of the condition, the denial on what it's doing to your body and the denial about how we
can represent ourselves in the workplace and get support. Because I was putting my
hand up and saying I was struggling, but it wasn't really getting through. There was no
real support forthcoming. It was like either you're on the client project or you're not.
Sanju (13:47.384)
There wasn't really a sense of, okay, well, the client wants you to be in the office, but we
understand that the occupational health report says you can work from home, so let's
talk to the client about it. Nothing like that. It was very black or white. I did eventually go
onto a phased return the second time around, and the phased return was very
generous. you know, I had time to adjust myself back into my client role, and I thought
things were great.
You know, I thought, okay, Accenture being really supportive now, HR are fully aware of
what's happening with me and my symptoms, and they're giving me a gentle ride in. And
then I was on the bench. So that means I was technically not adding value to the
business because there were no jobs in London. My reasonable adjustment that I was
given was a London restriction, so I wouldn't have to travel up and down the country,
but there were no jobs there.
And I'm feeling guilty, but I don't know what to do because it's like, well, I can't travel out
of London.
But I also don't have any jobs in London. Okay, I'll make sure I'm adding value in
different ways because I've been at the organization for 10 years, everything's going to
be fine. No one's telling me and no one's having meetings with me. You I have my return
to work meeting and that's it until I get a letter saying out of the blue that I've been
underperforming and that I'm going to be invited to a meeting four days later and I may
be dismissed. And I was like, what?
Are you joking? Like shock, horror. And that was the moment that I realised that the
workplace was not supportive, that I was no longer someone that was going to add the
value that they needed and that the endometriosis and my disability was the end of my
career.
Joyce Harper (15:45.307)
It's it's just you can't believe that. You've been there for ten years. You have a major
operation and you're trying to get back to work in a phased way and they and they do
that is is really quite heartbreaking. Now I know that you've had thousands of letters
now from women who have been in that situ of similar situations to you as well.
Sanju (16:01.89)
Yeah.
Sanju (16:11.745)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joyce Harper (16:12.389)
Can you say any more about this? It's it's not it's not just happened to you, has it?
Sanju (16:20.717)
It is heartbreaking as the word is unfathomable and I call it a national crisis that there
are so many women right now being pulled into a meeting and being told that they are
not performing in line with expectations but haven't been put on a performance
management plan, haven't been given any sort of support, haven't even been given time
to be referred to occupational health, to put in a reasonable adjustment.
Employers seem to think they're above the law and they are demonstrating how unfair
the workplace is for those with endometriosis.
So I'll get messages pretty much daily saying that I've asked for a reasonable
adjustment and they won't give it to me and if they don't give it to me my job's at risk and
the reasonable adjustment might be can I just have one day to work from home? Now I
appreciate that that might not be possible in every industry, in every sector, in every job
role but I do look at particularly at global corporates like Accenture where it's a huge
operation, there are other roles available. I just don't know what's stopping employers
from being humane, from being, I guess, that beacon of light that we all need because
that's their role, that's their legal duty to support an employee. So there's not just not
making reasonable adjustments, there's harassment, I've heard...
Sanju (18:05.899)
Women say that because they've taken sick leave because of the pain that they're being
harassed and pushed out that way. And we know from statistics, one in six women with
endometriosis are forced to leave the workplace. One in six women. I can't get my head
around this.
But you see, there is an underlying root cause here. And this is the thing that I think has
come out of my case. And the thing that I'm trying to fight for right now with many, many
other endo warriors across the UK, which is that for endometriosis to be considered a
disability, it needs to be listed in the Equality Act guidance.
This guidance is 60 page guidance that talks about which conditions could be a
disability. There is not a single gynecological source condition. And because there is no
specific information, employers are finding a way around this. And that is a loophole
that we need to address urgently.
Joyce Harper (19:18.947)
Yeah, so it is it is quite astounding. so many things came into my head then. But let's go
back to that meeting. So you had four days notice and you had this meeting and they
told you in the letter that they might dismiss you. So what happened when you went in?
Sanju (19:35.51)
I went in with all my medical evidence, occupational health reports, feedback,
feedback that I got from my line manager on that day that said, you know, I was a
pleasure to work with, that I was so organized. These are some of the things I remember
that I've, you know, really rolled my sleeves up and got stuck into the project and it's
making great headway. The kind of things that I guess are tick tick tick when you're a
management consultant. Like basically you can project manage, you can get things
done. And I went into that meeting with real trepidation, like I'm getting sweaty palms
even thinking about it because
I had been told, you know, off the record that when you get invited to a meeting like that,
that's the end of the road for you, that no one gets to keep their job after that meeting.
And I was like, you know, I had such hope, you know, that's the warrior in me. was like,
no, justice will prevail. I will make my case. I will make it clear that I've been here for 10
years, that I am a loyal employee and that I love this organization and I want to continue
to contribute to this organization, but I just need a bit more time and it didn't make any
difference. They had already made up their mind after a very sort of brief exchange
between a managing director, a very senior person in the organization who headed up
talent and organization. That was the practice area I was in. And it's kind of ironic that I
was in a people person operation that didn't use any processes and then the HR
director, the HR directors are those two who basically just said, you're underperforming
and we're gonna have to let you go. And even though, mean, I asked questions like you
haven't put me on a performance management plan, why is that? And it was just met
with silence. And of course,
That many years ago, I didn't have that strength that I do now. I say, know, advocating
for yourself with an illegal framework. I didn't say things like, I've got endometriosis,
which can be considered a disability under the Equality Act 2010. You haven't made a
reasonable adjustment to the performance process. So can you please do that? Can
you refer me to occupational health? And then can we have another meeting? I didn't
say that.
And these are all the things now that I think with hindsight, it could have been a very
different path for me, but then maybe it wasn't meant to be. And this is the journey that I
was meant to go on, which has, you know, been a seven year legal crusade against one
of the world's largest corporates. And
I know how small I felt in that meeting, how scared and intimidated I was. So when they
said to me, you're sat with immediate effect, I didn't have it in me to say, that can't be
lawful. I didn't say that. I cried and I left the building.
Joyce Harper (22:47.439)
But I think of how many women would know all the legal jargon and w their standpoint. I
mean, who who would know that?
Sanju (22:57.421)
This is it. Why don't we know? Isn't it fascinating? The Equality Act came out in 2010, 15
years ago, and none of us really understand that piece of legislation, how it can support
us, how we can use it, what it actually says, what it means.
I don't know why. And I genuinely think if out of my case just comes a greater level of
education and understanding for this piece of legislation, then that's a job done. And I
know we're already seeing it happening because I have had, you know, those who've
written to me, if they've said, I'm being pulled into a meeting, I will try my best to get on
the call with them. I will tell them about the basics of the Equality Act 2010, what they
can ask for and several have not lost their job. And it's just, I think, the beginning of a
huge movement of, in particular, women saying, I'm not going to put up with this
anymore. I've got a condition that is debilitating, that's affecting my life and work. It is a
disability, and you need to consider it as such, and then you need to take on board your
legal responsibilities. We're seeing it. But we do know that, like I said, because there's
no specificity right now in this 15 year old guidance, I mean, you more than anyone
know who operates from research that is that out of date. think in the conversations I
have, it's like, well, it's, know, we've written the legislation, we've written the law, so it's
done now. The interpretation of the law, the implementation of the law. That is why we
need to update the guidance so that without a shadow of a doubt, no employer can ever
say to a person with endometriosis that it's not a disability, that they don't know what to
do because it should be written. That's my belief.
Joyce Harper (25:04.144)
Yeah. And so that day, I can't imagine how you felt that day. I mean, goddy, I would have
cried as I'd cried as well and gone home and cried in my pillow. When what what
happened after that? How how did you get the energy to think I'm going to fight this?
Because I know, well, it's you're on a seven year and we thought you'd finished, but
there's been another setback. So let let's guess go through that. We thought we were
gonna be jumping for joy and then something else. Anyway, let's so let's let's start seven
years ago. You go home. And the and tell tell us what happened. Tell us the sequence of
events.
Sanju (25:43.277)
I the meeting, I mean I've never even talked about it in this level of detail, god how am
going to be able to do it without sopping my eyes out?
Joyce Harper (25:52.677)
We can we can cry. I c I cry sometimes on the podcast. If if I I think crying's fine. Let's
cry.
Sanju (26:00.567)
think it's just, it was so brutal. And I think I should say at this point know, like, it wasn't
just a job for me. Nothing is ever just a job. I believe, I believe in contributing to society
and making a difference. That's basically in my lifeblood. I get that from my parents,
who were, you know, uprooted from their homeland during the partition of India, who
worked hard to get an education and then came to this country and had to work hard
again against all odds with race discrimination, all levels of inequality to push through
for me and my sister who is a doctor in the NHS to give us these opportunities and
believe that, you know, we can shatter every ceiling because the sky is the limit.
And that's, know, that's what I believe in rise as well. These young people living below
the poverty line, first generation learners, because of the legacy of the British Empire
plundering Bengal and many other parts of the world to have to rebuild education
systems. You know, this is this is the stuff that is made, had made me who I am and is in
my core. So
That's why I get so upset when I think about that moment because I think it just
epitomises the injustice, the brutality, the supremacy of this corporate giant that could
just do whatever they felt to me. And I left the building and my dad was waiting outside
at the Bank of England and I just sat with him on the bench for a long time and then I had
to pick myself up.
Sanju (27:56.364)
because I had a RISE trustees meeting that evening and I did pick myself up. And then
the next day I remember it. I went to Wimbledon with my sister. It was denial. It was the
sort of like, is this really happening? it is. And I think to myself now, like, gosh, that
timeline of events is a little bit blurry for me.
It's a bit hazy, but the main thing is that my family were like, we're going to fight this. So
we, we approached a law firm and the first step was to appeal. So that's what we did.
We hadn't actually received the policy that said we could appeal or what the manner of
the appeal would look like.
And it was at this point that Accenture started referring to the process as a disciplinary
process. And this is also something that I find horrific. So no process was actually used
to dismiss me, no capability, no sickness management plan. Suddenly it started being
referred to as a disciplinary process. So I had to appeal to be heard by a disciplinary
panel, which I was.
Now we fast forward to September of 2019 and I had a two hour grilling by another
managing director, another person in HR who at this point are asking me all the
questions that they could have asked me at the termination meeting. How is this
condition affecting you?
How difficult is it for you? What are you doing to look after yourself? There were loads of
questions and I was like, wow, maybe there's a chance. But there was also a tone that
was very much like it's your fault. You're just a poor performer. You weren't up to
scratch. And by this point, I think they had started these very difficult accusations about
my character.
Sanju (30:08.081)
And that night I had my first panic attack. I didn't know it was a panic attack. I thought I
was dying. For anyone who's ever had a panic attack for the first time, I actually thought
I was dying. I stayed over with my parents that night and I woke them up at like three
o'clock in the morning and they supported me through one of the worst nights of my life.
And I went to the GP and she was like, it's a panic attack. And that was the beginning, I
guess, of my mental health decline.
But concurrently, this is the thing I think it's quite hard to convey sometimes, like how
can someone who's falling apart mentally still push and push and push? But actually,
that's what people are doing across the world right now. Those torn apart by war, those
living in abject poverty their mental health is declining, but they fight because that's
what humans do. We fight for what is right and what is just. And that's what I did. And so
when I eventually got the outcome of the appeal hearing, which was they uphold their
original decision and they're not going to give me my job back, I made the decision with
my family to go to employment tribunal. And that's what we did. We submitted our
employment tribunal proceedings on the 19th of December 2019 and after that there
was no looking back.
Joyce Harper (31:31.791)
But the these things, they do take why do they take so long? Why why is that twenty
nineteen? It's twenty twenty six. What happened over those seven years? I can't
imagine what that was like for you.
Sanju (31:41.26)
and it was in many ways like torture and it's just getting worse and this is the thing it's
like how many how many battles can we can we kind of fight and solve but you know our
justice system our justice system is on its knees the tribunal system that affects you
know every single one of us who are employees or employers at the moment i think the
wait time is above five years to get heard i mean i know covid has obviously impacted
that as well But that's another reason that employers are like, well, we can just get away
with this because no claimant is going to hold on for five years to get their story heard in
court. It's another crisis. And so what happened in those seven years was a long waiting
game and a lot of patience.
There's a preliminary hearing, you have to agree what the list of issues are. These are all
things that I'm learning, working very closely with my lawyers. You eventually have a
hearing and then they say, you need to write a disability impact statement even before
then, know, words like the grounds of resistance, so Accenture come back on your
initial claims and say why they think the claims should be struck out. It's so much
paperwork, Joyce. The final bundle was over 3000 pages.
And I knew every single page. Like I had trawled through that because that it was like at
that point it was just me in my life and my case. But that's how much it meant to me that
fight for justice. Like how can an employer get away with this? This is not right. So I will
use my capability. And I should say actually another thing in that termination meeting,
they said you have considerable talent. So
Sanju (33:36.394)
I used my considerable talent. went and got a master's in law. I got a distinction from
the University of Law. I used my considerable talent to work closely with my lawyers
every step of the way. And with all the different preliminary hearings, we finally had a full
hearing in May 22.
I stood in the stand for two days and I gave evidence on oath. I was faced with my
previous colleagues who gave evidence against me, who built this picture of me being a
terrible person that no one ever liked, that they should have sat years ago, but they
didn't. You know, Joyce, I could write a book about the things that I've heard about
myself, but I've had to keep going.
Because that's not me. I'm a person with integrity and honesty and authenticity and
they can't take that away from me even though they have tried. Seven years also
included the final judgment where I won on unfair dismissal but I got my compensation
diminished 100 % and I lost on disability discrimination and I appealed.
I waited a year to hear back about the appeal. So we're now in May 2023. That summer,
appeal rejected. We apply again to have an oral hearing. We're now in September 2024.
The oral hearing, we have a judge who hears me, who says there are merits in this
appeal. Proceed. And then...
December 2025, another year, we have the full hearing. And then in January this year,
the judgment where we won and the things that we won on endometriosis, considered a
disability, my endometriosis, considered a disability. That there was disability
discrimination, that the model that they use, the corporate up or out model that they
didn't adjust is not potentially lawful and that my compensation that was diminished by
100 % was a wrong decision. But it's taken me seven years to get that.
Joyce Harper (36:04.251)
I mean, it if they wanted to dismiss you, if they didn't think you were performing before
all this happened, they should have done it before. Why would you do it when someone
has got something like endometriosis and going through all this? I mean, that doesn't
make any sense. That's that's really bad management. That's ri I'm anyway, let's park
that for now. Let's park that for now. So so you heard you heard that you won. When
what months were that was this year. What month was that?
Sanju (36:28.833)
Yeah.
Yeah, it was it was the 19th of January 2026, a day I'll remember for the rest of my life.
What a day. And what support. What a great way to start this year of the firehorse. I lost
you for a second. You still there? Yeah. You went away for a second. And what an
incredible way to start this year of the firehorse. It was like.
Joyce Harper (36:51.726)
Yeah, it's all fun, yeah.
Sanju (37:01.581)
You know, I think I should say that after the hearing in September 2024 was the first
time I started sharing my story a little bit wider. I put a crowd justice page together
because I was struggling with the legal costs. And that's when people started reaching
out to me to be like, my God, this happened to me too. But it wasn't.
I guess until this year that it happened in earnest and across the UK because of the
incredible support that I got from so many amazing journalists who cared about my
story enough to want to share it. But I have to talk about this community, this
endometriosis community, these sisters that I have, these endo warriors across the
country who have basically, since the judgment was handed down, have held me, have
supported me, have loved me. Like...
transformative and to finally understand I'm not alone and I think that's another thing
like what's happened this year for those with endometriosis is we're not alone it's okay
we can use our voice we can speak up we can share the challenges we're having and
you know what the government are going to start listening and they're going to do
something about it and we're all going to band together to make that happen
Joyce Harper (38:17.171)
You know, we've got so much got the women's health strategy, we've got all of these
things happening and policies finally being updated and changed or even written for the
first time. So I I do think what you've done is just groundbreaking and as you said, it it is
making a difference to thousands and thousands of women around the country. But you
had a but. So you January everything's good, fantastic, best day you're gonna remember
it. But what's happened since then? There's always a but.
Sanju (38:48.525)
There's always a but what was I listening to? my god. Do you watch Ted Lasso? Are you
a fan of Ted Lasso at all? I don't know if you do. think it's just it is joyful and it's just got
so many brilliant quotes because he's kind of like this like unabashedly motivational
coach of this football team. But there was the reason I thought of it just now was
Joyce Harper (38:57.721)
No, I haven't actually. Maybe I should, maybe I should.
Sanju (39:17.429)
someone was like I hate butts and then he was like you know the song where it's like I
love butts but I cannot lie or whatever anyway it made me think of that anyway a big but
Before the but I should just say, know, obviously we have the judgment come out and
then my local MP Tulip Siddique has been incredible, raised my case in parliament in
the International Women's Day debate. There have been other endo warriors petitioning
for things like menstrual leave. That's gone into a debate in parliament. We've had a
debate on endometriosis services. We've seen things happen and movement in a way
that has been unprecedented. Like 2026 is the year for equality for those with
endometriosis in the workplace we thought and we believed that this landmark
judgment would set legal precedent but also precedent for employers to do the right
thing and do better. But alas, Accenture have appealed. They've appealed the judgment
on seven grounds and now I will be forced to the Court of Appeal at the Royal Courts of
Justice on the 10th and 11th of November, so the three month countdown has begun.
And so the work is far from over, because as I say, justice is in jeopardy those of us who
have begun to use my case, this legal precedent, to support themselves in the
workplace, that is at risk and it is a terrible state of affairs but it is where we find
ourselves and why we need to speak even louder and why we need to work together
even more right now and why the petition in particular is so important because
employers want to find a way around this so that they
Sanju (41:21.941)
can continue to discriminate and ensure that we don't have equality and we have to say
no to that.
Joyce Harper (41:31.299)
Yeah, you you are leading the way in your case is so important. We we can't we can't let
it fail. We we can't let this appeal win at all. It as you said, you're leading the way, but it's
so many women coming right behind you. They are right behind you. So t tell us what we
can do. So you've mentioned the petition. Tell us what everyone can do. I have written
to I've signed the petition the other day. So my MP is Kemi Badinock.
Sanju (41:55.788)
Yay.
Joyce Harper (41:58.519)
I've never emailed her before because I've had various friends that have emailed her
and anyway. So anyway, but I did. I emailed her and said, Oi, Kemi, come on. So but but
come on, Kemi. so but t tell us what we can do. So we've got the petition, MPs. T you tell
us what we what do we need to do. Because as your work also always says, it's not just
endometriosis, it's all those other gynecological conditions that affect
Sanju (42:10.773)
Can we come on?
Joyce Harper (42:28.313)
women and there's so many, too many to name, but we know what they are. So what
can we do?
Sanju (42:32.801)
Yeah.
Yeah, thank you, Joyce, and thank you for being the trailblazer that you are to just bring
this to the masses. So the first thing to say is the petition headline says, add
gynecological conditions such as endometriosis to the Equality Act 2010 guidance. And
yes, there are too many to name, but some of them that we've started to just so that
people can understand what we mean exactly. Gynecological source conditions,
adenomyosis, PCOS, now PMOS, fibroids, any kind of
even you know PMDD, valvodynia, premature ovarian insufficiency, know
perimenopause, menopause, there are so many things that we are being affected by.
It's a spectrum of course we're not saying that everyone with these conditions are being
disabled but it needs to be considered that it could be a disability and at the momet
under recurring and fluctuating conditions there is not a single gynecological condition
listed. So this petition is specifically asking the government to amend this guidance that
was published 15 years ago to update it to include these conditions so that if you have
this condition and it is disabling you you can go to your employer and say look at this
guidance this is an example of a condition that can be disabling and now
Sanju (44:06.207)
I need you to support me through reasonable adjustments, through referring me to
occupational health, through giving me more time to give me the support. And right now
we know employers are not doing that. So this petition is crucial. We need to get
100,000 signatures within six weeks. We've got till the 27th of September. So I would
say, please sign the petition, share it far and wide with whoever you know, write to your
MP, tell them about it. Because when this petition goes to Westminster Hall, you have
an opportunity for your MP to represent you in parliament, to tell your story, and there is
nothing more powerful than that. And I think we sometimes think MPs don't do
anything, but I've seen it myself, my MP, I went to her surgery, 15 minutes she spent
with me, she cared, she listened. If an MP doesn't respond right to them again, find a
different way, but we must, we must involve our MPs because that is the way we're
gonna make change in this country. Other things that we can do. If you are part of the
women's network write to them ask if they can send the petition link out. Now I know
that some people are of the opinion that this petition is not needed because the
Equality Act 2010 covers any condition that is a long-term condition that affects your
normal day-to-day activities but as my case shows quite literally that that does not stop
an employer from treating you unlawfully and that is why this petition matters and that
is why we must have formal recognition in the statutory guidance so that we do not have
another case like mine.
Joyce Harper (45:50.511)
So everybody, everybody, we even if we're not affected by any of these conditions, we
all know somebody that is, we all of us do. So if you've ever thought you need to be a
warrior about something, this is it, this is it, whether you're man, woman, whatever, this
is it, because we all know somebody and we want your case to be successful and to be
something that changed thousands and thousands of lives.
And that would be so so amazing. So we'll put the the the podcast is going to be out a
little bit later than than you said. It's gonna be out in September. But I am gonna put that
little clip out in the next few days before the podcast comes out. So get people moving
and so they can hear more when when they listen to the podcast. It's just it's just so
important. We we don't want people to have to go through what you've been through. It
it's just
Totally unacceptable. So if you had the attention of every employer listening today, are
there things that you would say to them that they can better support any of their
employees, especially those with gynee conditions? And and after that, I'm gonna ask
you because I I know that a lot of women don't even want to want to discuss these
things. So we've just done a podcast, I've just done a podcast mini series about trying to
conceive.
And even if you're trying to get pregnant and even if you're trying to get pregnant without
going through fertility treatment, but if you're going through fertility treatment, lots of
men and women, because it affects both of us, decide not to tell their employers, even
though they're going to go through ups and downs, they may have a miscarriage, all
these other things that can really affect them physically and mentally. And we don't tell
our employees because we're so worried about all the crap that happened to you.
Sanju (47:37.761)
Yeah.
Joyce Harper (47:45.721)
So let let's think about the employees first and then we're gonna go on to what we can
try to support anyone in the workplaces, haven't they? So if you wanted to say
something to the employers, what would you want to say to them?
Sanju (47:46.476)
Yeah. think the time is now to change the narrative of what it looks like to have a
conversation between an employer and employee. And this is where employers can
leave the charge. Be that best practice employer who says that we're not afraid to have
these conversations with our employees. We value them. We trust them. We know that
they want to contribute to us as an employer, as to society, that's what we are. We are
humans who want to make a difference. That's why we come to work every day. So for
me, it is ensuring that if we provide an opportunity for an employer to be more open
about what does that conversation look like? What could it look like if we can see a
member of staff struggling?
If they're taking time off work more than is expected, can we have a gentle, curious
conversation with them about what's going on and lead with humanity? know,
processes, policy, the law comes later. We're all just here trying to get by. We know how
difficult life is. I just don't understand why we wouldn't sit down with an employee and
say, what's going on for you? How can we help you?
That's the first thing I would say. But of course, the flip side to that is being comfortable
to talk about these things. And it is so difficult. you know,
I want to give anecdotally as well what happened in my case, because my sick notes
didn't say endometriosis. And that is something Accenture have used against me to say
that your sick notes didn't say endometriosis, notwithstanding my occupational health
reports did, that I talked about it. I talked about it when I had a recurring endometrioma.
I told my line manager, I told my, you know, a managing director who was my career
counselor. I talked about it till the cows came home but they still again found a
loophole so we we don't have to disclose anything but I would say if we can all build
courage to talk about these things. But again, it comes handed out. It's like this double
edged sword, isn't it? This cycle of we can only build that courage if the employer is
going to listen and give us the support to share that. But we know it's already
happening. There are so many employers who we can say are trying to change the
narrative. So let's continue to lead with that conviction to say that we can do better, that
we want to give a level playing field to all our employees, even if they do have a
debilitating
So Yeah, that's where I come from first. And of course, then, you know, with my
management consulting background, then it comes back down to the senior leadership
team, having, I've said this before, honest conversations about what they mean for their
people when they're writing their people strategies, when they're writing their policies,
when they're training their people, what are they really doing to ensure equality for
those with a disability? And I think an extension also on the other side is so many
people I speak to say no I'm not going to disclose my disability because then I won't
even get an interview. We have the Equality Act 2010 exactly so that these situations
don't happen. But we've been living in fear for so long that we feel that we cannot share
our condition because then we will be penalized. But we know we can be penalized
anyway, like in my case. So it's a whole sort of systemic change that needs to take place
right now. And you mentioned the women's health strategy. For me, it's an intersection
between health, justice, work and pensions and equalities and I've said this I think I said
it like on national radio live that we need to get these ministers in a room and talk to
each other and understand how these conditions manifest in the workplace how
employees become claimants in David and Goliath legal battles how do we stop that
from happening how do we ensure that equality is actually happening it's a huge piece
of work Joyce it's it's a crusade isn't it
Joyce Harper (52:29.891)
Yeah. It is. I and for me, where my link comes in is what I'm really aware of is that they
have a lack of education. So they just don't understand. The MPs don't understand. Our
employees don't understand. We were never taught about this stuff at school. How are
anyone is anyone supposed to know? Women still don't understand about menopause.
I'm in the process with working with two charities to set up evidence-based.
Websites to educate people about fertility and to educate people about menopause.
We we are we're still at that stage. People find it very hard to find reliable education. So,
in a way, I'm not defending them, but I I'm not surprised the MPs don't understand. I'm
not surprised surprised the employers don't understand, and the and the lawyers and
all the people that have dealt with your case.
For many of them, they are not going to understand what you've been through. They're
not going to understand endometriosis. They're not going to understand how that
affects your life. So for me, my crusade on this needs to be that we need to educate
everyone about any of these gyneological conditions that can affect women women and
the workplace, but even in their in their private life. It's obviously it's all wrapped up
together. And I was going to ask you how it's affected you on in your own life, but they're
all they are all wrapped up together.
So for me, education's going to be at the top of that pyramid. We have got to get that
diffuse down the whole thing. And then those people can make an informed decision
about how they feel about it. So for our employers, I mean, and my my own university is
I'm working on this, it's very much a work in work in progress. I don't expect every line
manager to understand all the female gyneological conditions and the all the things
that can affect a woman in the workplace. I don't expect them to do that. But if we had a
champion, a female gynecological champion or a women's health champion or I mean
I'm I'm apparently the menopause champion in in my institute, but we haven't even
worked out what's a new thing. We haven't actually worked out what that does. But or a
reproductive health champion that can also help men we absolutely mustn't forget
about the men. There are situations that can seriously affect men. so I think we need to
have champions in every company. If it's a big company, they need lots of them in
various departments, so that employees can go to that person, knowing that they have
the knowledge and the understanding of any of the acts, policies, guidance within the
company that they need to have.
And that they can then support you. Because I've heard so many stories, I'm sure you
had. I went to my line manager, sometimes it's a w it's a woman as well, and they
weren't sympathetic and and there was that problem. But I do think that comes from a a
situation of not being educated. So I think if we had those, but going back to the the part
about the employees, that there is going to be lots of employees that don't want to
divert divulge this situation that they're living with.
Sanju (55:47.788)
Yeah.
Joyce Harper (55:49.967)
to their employees, isn't that? And you've pr you've probably heard so many of these
stories. It becomes very tricky if you're not getting support or don't feel that you're
gonna have the support. It's very hard to know who to talk to, isn't it?
Sanju (55:54.699)
Yeah. Yeah. You're right, we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. And I just want to
also say that I think I completely echo what you've just said about the education piece. I
think with education, know, like, you know, knowledge is power, but literally comes
strength and courage. Because if we can fall back on what we genuinely know is facts,
that's what we can lead with. I also love your idea about these champions. And I
I think already organically that's happening, right? There are some people in the
workplace who do know more, who are slightly more educated on this matter and topic,
perhaps because a family member has the condition or their best friend has the
condition. So I would say if you're one of those people and you're listening now,
brilliant, this is a chance in many ways to start approaching your employer and say, I've
just heard this podcast. Actually, that's a great idea should create a champion for men
and women's health who is going to be able to be that point of contact whenever there's
an issue because we want to retain our talent. That ultimately has to be the goal. And
speaking of education as well, think about our younger members of society who are
entering the world of work. And I have met mothers who have told me that they've had
their daughter go on an apprenticeship or a summer job and then be put through a
disciplinary process because they've had to take time off work because of their
condition. Imagine, Joyce, imagine entering the world of work age 18, 19 and already
being penalised. What does that give you in terms of your worldview of your career
trajectory and your ambitions? That's why we do need to do more in schools. And I think
what's interesting, as someone said this to me recently when I went to a Teach First
event, I'm still quite an active ambassador within the social innovation unit And he said
to me, Haven't we just had a bit of policy go through where schools have to educate on
endometriosis? Isn't it wild that we have that, but we don't have endometriosis listed in
the Equality Act 2010? was like, wild is the world. Wild, wild, wild. But these
conversations are happening and they need to permeate through all parts of society,
including starting at school. And like you said, even starting to talk about this in PSHE.
Why aren't we learning about the Employment Rights Act, the Equality Act 2010, these
pieces of law that affect us all? We're so scared of the law. And I say the law is there to
protect us, but we need to have the knowledge about it. And what I love about this
conversation, Joyce, is there's such a belief in hope and change.
We can make change. We have to believe that we can and we have to find the people
around us who are going to help us to do that And I'm sure you would say the same
thing, know, people can reach out to us if they want more ideas of how to do this,
because it's going to have to be at a much larger level, permeating through all
employers and by all employees. That's what I believe. And slowly but surely, we will
see that courage and conviction to start talking about these things a little more. And we
will start to see a shift, I believe, in in in the kind of this this balance or imbalance in
these processes that employers use to hire people and then fire people.
Joyce Harper (59:42.391)
We we are lucky, as you said, we are lucky in the UK that we actually do have in our
PSHG curriculum that we have to teach about reproductive health, we have teach
about lifestyle, to teach about menopause, and then it w that was updated in 2019.
Then it was updated again to say we have to include about endometriosis, difficult
periods. So with well-being for women, I've helped well-being of women.
I've helped develop with a brilliant GP Sharon Dixon. we have been working with well
being of women, and we have developed two lesson plans for teachers to teach about
endometriosis and and other issues and to make sure and painful periods to make sure
everybody won't every not just obviously females to have that, but everyone to have that
education to understand. And I must admit, we never thought about.
The Equality Act. We never thought about how this would affect girls going forward in
their career. And I think it's just so important. We learn so much at school, which we will
never use in our future lives. All those things we learn, the geography and the blah blah
blah that we never use again. And these are the nuts and bolts that we really, really
need to learn all about our reproductive health, but all about everything we've spoken
about today. So And even if we teach it at schools anyway, we have got the big catch up
because we've got all the adults out there. I mean, I always I always say I've done a lot
of work about menstruation. I always say that so many of the women have told me, but
my husband or my boyfriend doesn't support me. And I say to them, but they've never
been taught about this. How can they support you? Don't give them some slack. How
can anyone support anyone if they haven't had the education? So just to summarize.
Sanju (01:01:26.785)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joyce Harper (01:01:35.365)
Sanju what or what we are going to do, we are going to work on the education of
everyone to make sure they understand how this can affect women at home and
obviously in the workplace. We need to make sure that people sign the petition. The link
will be in the show notes. We need to make sure people hound their MPs to get their
MPs to stand up and support them. And we need to make sure that employers.
Sanju (01:01:36.129)
Yeah.
Joyce Harper (01:02:05.967)
Get on board with this. Get a champion, whatever they want to call it. If they want to I
think they should probably have a separate one for men and women because there
were different issues. And I think the person supporting you needs to be someone that
can be empathic and understand about these things. Not necessarily someone that's
been through it, but someone that understands. So that we get them in the in the in the
workplace. That can be somebody that you can go to without telling everybody in your
office, your line manager, everything, what's going on in your life. But someone who's
there and who's got your back and who supports you so that what happened to you
does not ever happen to anyone ever again. Have I missed anything out there is there
anything else we need everyone to do?
Sanju (01:02:52.813)
think right now I would also add that we've just had a parliamentary inquiry into
endometriosis in the workplace and the recommendations are coming out on the 14th
of October. And I think we all need to just be very aware of that date and what's going to
come out of that. Because I hope, for example, you know, we're talking about
recommendations in this call. This is the sort of stuff that I hope, know, thousands of
women have submitted their stories and evidence. But, the conversation is starting to
happen in parliament and let that continue. And that's why being forewarned and
forearmed on this content is so important. So 14th of, sorry, so 14th of October, a date
for our diaries, particularly if you have endometriosis.
And then the thing that I'm going to say to everyone is put the 10th and 11th of
November in your diary and come on down to the Strand, to the historic Royal Courts of
Justice and let's demonstrate to these judges there'll be three judges presiding over this
appeal on seven grounds. Let's show them that we mean business and we are not here
to have our justice and our rights in jeopardy.
I am so grateful I've got to say it to everyone who has supported me on this journey,
whether it be through family and friends and seeing you, to messages, to sharing posts
and stories, to donating to my Crowd Justice page. It is a tall order now to try and get
myself in a financial position to fight this. If you can and you would like to, you can make
a contribution. That is so appreciated. I cannot even tell you. And just last month, we
launched the Strategic Action Network for Justice UK. 25 endo warriors came on to a
call. Just we were inspired by, know, the football in England doing so well. And we were
like, we need to put a dream team together. And we did and the name that we came up
with, lo and behold the acronym is my name and my name in Sanskrit means victory
together and we are going to be victorious together.
Joyce Harper (01:05:13.165)
Wow, wow, look, there's more, more coming up. Right, so the 14th of October in the
diary, 10th and 11th, we need to be down there. And I'm going to put all your links on on
the show notes. So people need to follow you so they know where to go on the 10th and
9th of November. And please, if if everyone, even if they can just donate a ten o or
whatever they can donate to your crowdfunding, that would be really amazing. And
follow.
Sanju (01:05:38.859)
Yeah. It would be amazing.
Joyce Harper (01:05:40.985)
what you're doing, say the name again. You're the strategic
Sanju (01:05:45.543)
Action Network for Justice UK. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Joyce Harper (01:05:48.347)
We can follow your initials. Can see that that's yeah, that's your name. Very good, very
good. I never know what to call things I work on. I'm like but that's a that's brilliant. It's a
brilliant that's your name as well.
Sanju (01:06:01.229)
It happened so organically Joyce, I mean, that's, you know, that's story for another time.
But honestly, we are here to, we say unite voices, drive action, and advance women's
rights. If you are interested in any of that, join our movement. It's a network. And so
everyone is welcome.
Joyce Harper (01:06:20.601)
How do we join it?
Sanju (01:06:23.383)
So at the moment we have weekly meetings on a Wednesday at one o'clock. If you are
interested in joining a meeting, just find us on Instagram. All the details are actually on
my Crowd Justice page and they will be obviously in the show notes. Just drop us a
message and we'll send you a calendar invite. It's as simple as that.
Joyce Harper (01:06:40.771)
Right, Wednesday's one o'clock, everyone. Join some of those for sure. Wow, there's so
much, so much there, so much. Right. I I'm going to finish off. I'm going to finish off with
the questions that I ask everyone. I thought we I thought I thought I was gonna feel really
sad at the end of this podcast. And I always have these questions so that if we've gone
heavy, but I don't feel sad. I don't feel sad. I feel really like I'm ready, ready for action.
Yeah, come on, everyone.
Sanju (01:06:44.179)
It's... Yeah!
Sanju (01:07:02.067)
Yeah. Yes, come on! Yeah, ready for strategic action. That's what it's about, Joy.
Joyce Harper (01:07:09.669)
Come on, we we ready for strategic action. Let's let's do it. Let's do it. So I'm I'm really
excited. But my last questions I always end on a bit of fun. So what makes you happy
and where is your happy place?
Sanju (01:07:20.971)
Yeah yeah complex question but when I thought about it I'm gonna say and it feels right
to say this I'm gonna go back to my roots I'm gonna go back to waking up in a village in
rural Bengal called Shonnanga, with the birds singing, the sun streaming through,
immersing myself in nature, in the family home that my father built after he lost
everything from the partition of India, that has literally turned into a place that gave me
such solace last year when I was trying to find myself again after the horrific years of the
legal proceedings. And I did and I came back to myself and I am the strong warrior
woman again after many many years of mental health battles and I in a very typical
Indian way invite you all to come. When we have got through this chapter, this crusade,
we're all gonna have a lovely time in Bengal and you're all invited to our family home in
Shonnanga.
Joyce Harper (01:08:26.231)
wow, that's j that's that's really, really beautiful. And I I think you you've you know, we're
with you. We all want to hug you, we all all want to be with you. There's gonna be so
many, so many with you, honestly. And it and it's it's I I love a story where people have
turned something really negative into something incredibly positive, and you you are not
alone. Now, the very last question I ask everyone as well, and I I have no idea what
you're going to say.
But what advice would you give your younger self?
Sanju (01:09:02.721)
God, I hadn't actually thought about this one, blimey.
Joyce Harper (01:09:06.275)
It's a it's such a hard one. And some people say something very specific, some people
say something more general, so
Sanju (01:09:17.313)
I think I want to say...Nothing is permanent and that is the beauty of life. It is constantly
ebbing and flowing and I would link that to one of my favourite quotes in Anne of Green
Gables which is, tomorrow is always fresh with no mistakes. So if you've woken up and
you've had an atrocious day, don't you worry, it's not gonna stay that way.
Joyce Harper (01:09:48.825)
Wow, that actually made me have some goose pimples. That was amazing. That was
amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Well sorry that you've been to all this
shit, basically, but thank you for continuing to fight. And yeah, we are we are there with
you. We will be with you. And everyone needs to follow you, give you, give you your sub
give you support and we will all really manifest success in this and hope that it all works
out. So thank you so much for all the work you've done over these years and we will we
will definitely be in touch. But thank you for doing being on the podcast.
Sanju (01:10:34.477)
Joyce, where do I begin to share my love and adoration and admiration for you? I met
you in February and here we are and I have been an ardent admirer of you since I met
you in February and everything you do, the manner in which you speak, how you lead is
literally, I don't know, it warms, I know, my heart and soul and it does for thousands and
millions of women in this country and beyond a very, very special kindred spirit and
thank you from the bottom of my heart for this conversation because yeah, it's taken
me to places that I haven't necessarily been before and I'm very grateful.
Joyce Harper (01:11:16.795)
You make me cry now. State of us We've got girl crushes going on here.
Sanju (01:11:25.197)
You gotta love a girl crush, right?
Joyce Harper (01:11:29.508)
Gotta love a girl crush. I I always say, you know, I used to be a bit of a I used to a lot of
my friends used be guys when I was younger. But god, I bloody love women. I I honestly I
I love love spending time with men and they they feed me so much, they motivate me so
much, and you are one of those. So, yep, I've just rubbed away a little tear. So, right,
everyone, we will see you soon, and we're going to really.
Sanju (01:11:54.391)
See you soon.
Joyce Harper (01:11:57.455)
be hoping that everything works out with this next bloody appeal that you've got to fight.
So thank you so much for all your work. Thank you.
Sanju (01:12:03.426)
Thank you. Thank you, Joyce. Onwards and upwards.
Joyce Harper (01:12:07.513)
Yeah.