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Have you ever looked at a situation you’re facing in utter disbelief and thought, "How will I ever get over this?" Lysa TerKeurst understands. After years of heartbreak and emotional trauma, she realized it’s not about just getting over hard circumstances but learning how to work through what she has walked through. Now, she wants to help you do the same. That’s why Lysa teamed up with her personal, licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, alongside the Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, to bring you "Therapy & Theology." While Lysa, Jim and Joel do tackle some really hard topics, you’ll soon find they're just three friends having a great conversation and learning from each other along the way.
SHAE HILL:
Welcome back to Therapy and Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host Shea Hill, and I'm so glad you're tuning in. Today you're about to hear from myself, Dr. Joel Ali, and counselor Rebecca Maxwell. As we sit and ask Rebecca about the top issues, she is seeing married people face right now.
SHAE:
Our hope with this conversation is that you will be able to unearth the small issues in your marriage so that they don't become the big issues that you're facing in the future. As you fight for your family this season, maybe you're inspired to ask a question that sounds something like this.
SHAE:
How do I really help the young people in my life who are struggling both mentally and emotionally, if that's. You. Whether you are a parent, a grandparent, or someone who just feels called to help, we're here to help you. That's why I wanna tell you about the Youth Mental Health Coach program from the American Association of Christian Counselors and Light University. It is a biblically based, clinically excellent training that equips you with practical real world tools to support youth and their families.
SHAE:
You'll learn how to recognize fifteen of the most common mental health challenges facing young people today, including anxiety, depression, digital addiction, and emotional regulation. You'll also learn how to respond with care, when to step in and when to refer to a professional. Right now, you can receive a full tuition scholarship and get started when you pay a one-time $54 technology fee.
SHAE:
Friend. This is the training that will give you the confidence to make a real difference. Learn more, and apply@mentalhealthcoach.org. Or you can visit the link in our show notes. And before we jump in, here are just a few reminders.
SHAE:
We are launching a brand new podcast exclusive segment in 2026 called Listener Mail, brought to you by Compassion International. These segments will include a question pulled from one of our listeners just like you, and an answer from either Lisa, Jim or Dr. Joel. Tune in on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and make sure you stay listening all the way through the end so you don't miss this special segment of each episode.
SHAE:
And lastly, we want to know how therapy and theology is helping you work through what you're walking through. So leave us a review or a comment on YouTube and tell us all about it. Okay, now onto today's conversation.
SHAE:
Welcome back to Therapy and Theology. I'm your host, Shay Hill, and I'm so excited to be with you today. I've been sitting in the studio listening to all of these conversations so far, but today I'm jumping in to join you for this conversation. And I'm here with my friends, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, of course, and Rebecca Maxwell, our counselor.
SHAE:
And Rebecca, I'm really gonna look to you to get us started for today's conversation.
REBECCA MAXWELL:
Ok.
SHAE:
So as we were talking about fighting for your family, I knew that I wanted to make sure we talked about fighting for your marriage because I know you've done a lot of work in your counseling practice of talking about how, you know, the marriage is the core, the foundation really of the family. And so I feel like you could honestly say the health of your family can really be determined by the health of your marriage.
REBECCA:
Absolutely.
SHAE:
And so I wanna make sure we spend time talking about that in these episodes. And so I'm curious in your practice. What are some root issues that you're seeing in marriage? Things that they might seem small right now, or they're just the little reoccurring fights or the little tiffs, maybe the little hiccups that you experience, but actually, if you could draw a line to a time in the future, let's say five years, 10 years, whatever you want to say those small things can actually become much bigger issues, and I feel like today, if we can spend some time talking about some of those things, we'll be able to put in the work to intent, intentionally attack those root issues so that we don't have to look down the road 10 years from now and say, oh, I wish I would've dealt with that then.
SHAE:
So take us there. I know that you sit with so many families, so many married couples. What are you seeing? What are some of these top kind of root issues that you see?
REBECCA:
I think one thing is I see a lot of people avoiding conflict. Mm-hmm. Um, conflict is normal and natural in any relationship, and so many people don't know how to do conflict well, and so they'll avoid it.
REBECCA:
And so then we have these simmering resentments. We have the rug is, is getting a bump because we've put so much stuff under there and those unresolved things begin to disconnect us. And research is showing us that divorce. A lot of times comes at the hands of disconnection for one reason or another, but there are a lot of couples that just kind of grow apart because they have these, they're avoiding these necessary difficult conversations.
SHAE:
Yeah.
REBECCA:
And, and with that I mentioned repair. When you don't repair Well, yeah. You know, we, we live in this broken world and we have these, these hurts and these cuts and these injuries to our relationships. That are normal because we're human beings bumping up against each other. Right. But if we don't know how to repair well then we're just, you know, walking around with a bunch of bumps and bruises that don't seem to heal. Mm. So those are a couple big things.
SHAE:
That's so good. I wanna talk Yeah. Really quickly about something you just said about the growing apart. Something I said to you downstairs, Joel, um, as we were prepping for this episode, is I heard a podcast the other day saying they, they reference a Christine King quote, I think it was like a passion message that she gave a couple years ago, and she's talking about our spiritual. Walk with the Lord, but I think this really applies to marriage and what you just said, and she said, the only thing you have to do to drift is nothing.
REBECCA:
Yeah.
SHAE:
And as you're talking about avoiding conflict or just honestly reaching a place in your marriage where you're coasting, it makes me think of that quote because I think one of the things. That we can experience in marriage is the only thing it takes to drift is nothing, is nothing. And you can fill in the blank of what that nothing is.
REBECCA:
Yeah.
SHAE:
It could be avoiding conflict, it could be, um, avoiding connection and things like that. But that's why I'm so glad we're having conversations like these. Yeah. 'cause it's almost like a, a. Warning sign or kind of like a stop to be like, how are we, how are we doing? You know?
REBECCA:
If you don't tend to that garden, it will dry up, right?
DR JOEL MUDDAMALLE:
Mm-hmm.
SHAE:
Right. For sure. That's so good.
REBECCA:
And I think our marriages are like a garden, right? We have to continue to get to know our spouse because we change over our lifespan.
SHAE:
For sure.
REBECCA:
I know there's this phrase that people don't change, and that's. Not true at all.
JOEL:
Right.
REBECCA:
We're constantly changing and if we don't continue to get to know our partner, we will drift.
SHAE:
For sure. And something else about the conflict thing too is I've noticed that if you kind of avoid conflict or, 'cause you don't always have the time to have it out in that moment, you know? Or you're just like, it's not the moment, but over time, yeah. If that becomes the pattern that you do,
JOEL:
Mm-hmm.
SHAE:
Then every time you do have the time, I guess, to get into an argument, it actually becomes so much bigger than what the original thing was about, and you're like, Ugh. If we just would've made time for that one conversation, it wouldn't have turned into this kind of kitchen sink argument, if you will, where it's like, we're not talking about just one thing anymore, now we're talking about multiple things. Is there anything else on conflict that you wanna add, Joel?
JOEL:
No. You know, I think I'm, I'm gonna. Pitch to Rebecca a lot on this one because…
SHAE:
I know, I'm like, guide us.
JOEL:
I know, I know. Take notes. Um, there's one thing, Rebecca, as we're, I actually had a conversation with, uh, a friend a couple months ago and, um, basically long story short, um, looks like a divorce is, is coming up, married for a couple of beers and begin to kind of process like, hey, what happened and what's going on. And as the individual kind of began to process, it seemed like there was like these three buckets, um, of. Really what you said, Shae of over time lack of attention, which became disconnection, which turned into like deep division.
SHAE:
Mm-hmm.
JOEL:
You know,
SHAE:
The drift.
JOEL:
Yeah. The drift to the point of the just took place.
SHAE:
Yeah.
JOEL:
Yeah. And it was this, these three areas, it was financial, um, it was religious. Like what church do we go to? I don't feel like, like I belong, like I'm connected. And then sexual.
REBECCA:
Yeah.
JOEL:
Like where are the levels of intimacy? Um. Just expectations on what that looks like. And you know, I always tell like college students, when I'm with, um, guys at college, ministries that I'm speaking and, and stuff, it's like, um, getting married and having sex doesn't fix the brokenness of your heart.
SHAE:
Do they just look at you? Absolutely stunned and
JOEL:
Stunned and
SHAE:
Disappointed
JOEL:
In shock and disappointed and probably think I'm a liar. Like, you know, like, what are you talking, you know, like,
SHAE:
Or they're like, easy for him to say he's already married.
JOEL:
He's already married.
SHAE:
Right. Yeah.
JOEL:
And, and honestly it's just, it just, that's not how it works. And I think you could ask anybody who's been married, who goes absolutely. That, that actually in itself, that category in, in and of itself. Um, and I think pornography is really messed up, like how we have viewed sexuality and intimacy. Um, but I kind of would love to know from you, Rebecca, like how, you know, like these are the things that are so small in the very beginning.
JOEL:
Like, I joke, so I'm gonna put myself on blast. So, uh, Brit and I, our personality types are very different.
SHAE:
Yes.
JOEL:
You know, so she's like, yes, she's been, she, we've been in friendship for 10 years in ministry.
SHAE:
Right.
JOEL:
So it's like, okay. Brit is like a target. And if she was here, she'd be like, totally cool with me saying this. Um, I've said it in, in public all kinds of places. Sure. So Britt's like, uh, go to the Target. Go to Target and buy like, all kinds of stuff for $10, $5 or whatever. Right. Like that's just like her spending habit or, and no big deal. Right. Fine. I am like, so like I don't buy anything ever until
SHAE:
Until you do.
JOEL:
Until I do. Yeah. And when I do, I have no problem swiping that credit card, you know, like I will swipe. And that for the first couple years of our marriage, like became one of the biggest levels of tension.
REBECCA:
Right.
JOEL:
And you know, I would be resentful 'cause I'm like, why are you coming home with all of these things? We don't even need it. You know? And then she would be like, what is this bill on our, you know, like, what in the world is going on?
REBECCA:
Right?
JOEL:
And over time we realized, oh, like we had to attend to those kinds of things. And so curious how you would just kinda respond to that?
SHAE:
That's such a good example. 'cause it seems small in the moment.
JOEL:
Yes.
SHAE:
Yeah.
JOEL:
Yes.
RBECCA:
I think what the deeper issue is, is how you talk about those things.
JOEL & SHAE:
Mm-hmm.
REBECCA:
And if you talk about those things.
SHAE:
Yeah.
REBECCA:
You know, whether it be financial, religious, or sexual, it's what are your expectations going into the relationship around those things.
SHAE:
Right.
REBECCA:
How are we different in those things? How can we value those differences? Because God obviously made us different.
JOEL:
Mm-hmm.
REBECCA:
And then how do we talk about them and do, do we talk about them?
JOEL:
Mm-hmm.
REBECCA:
Are we going to, are we gonna communicate in a way that is seeking understanding of two different perspectives? I'm just thinking about the financial perspectives. On those. On, you know, what you mentioned with your wife and or even like sexual, what, what do we, what are the expectations we have of what our sexual relationship's gonna be? And oh, by the way, getting married doesn't equal perfect sex life.
JOEL:
Right?
REBECCA:
Anyone that's married can attest to that.
JOEL:
Yeah.
REBECCA:
But I think we, we think, especially in our churches, as we're telling our kids. You know, to wait. And, and that it's, it's sex is meant for the covenant of marriage. That there's this belief that it's gonna be amazing and wonderful because we've waited and we're all sexually broken, just like we're broken in every other way.
JOEL:
Right?
SHAE:
Mm-hmm.
REBECCA:
And so when we don't talk about those things and the expectations around them, we become disappointed, and then we think there's something wrong. You know, with us, with our partner, and if we don't learn to talk about those in a way that is vulnerable and understanding and finding common ground and valuing one another, then we can certainly, those, those things can bring us apart.
SHAE:
It's so interesting and what I, I'm really hearing you say is we all have our issues, different things that will come up. Absolutely. It's not, even if there's not like a ranking system. Of these issues mean you're doomed and these mean that you're not. You know? But it's really about the conversations you're having around those issues.
SHAE:
And one of the things that I've heard you talk about too is like emotional intimacy.
REBECCA:
Yeah.
SHAE:
And I think those conversations and how they go and how you both show up to those conversations, the respect that you bring for one another.
REBECCA:
Yeah.
SHAE:
And those conversations can really contribute to the building or the destroying of the emotional intimacy that you have.
REBECCA:
Yeah.
SHAE:
Will you talk about that a little bit?
REBECCA:
Yeah. I think that emotional intimacy goes hand in hand with vulnerability.
SHAE & JOEL:
Mm-hmm.
REBECCA:
And so it's knowing your partner on an emotional level, meaning what are their biggest hurts and hang. You know, how were they raised?
SHAE:
Yeah.
REBECCA:
Do they have, you know, either traumas or difficult things in their past that they,
SHAE:
And triggers
REBECCA:
Because of that and triggers because of it triggers and cues and things that, you know, my husband can say something a certain way and it's going to cue my emotional system. And if I'm not, well, the, the, the example that I use a lot is that my husband grew up with, uh, in a very chaotic home and his mom had mental illness and she was gone a lot at big moments of his life. So early in our marriage, I'm kind of more of a withdrawal in the relationship. I wanna like storm out and have my moment.
SHAE:
I'm that way too.
REBECCA:
Go figure it out myself.
SHAE:
We talked about this before.
REBECCA:
Yeah. And it would devastate him
JOEL:
Mm-hmm.
REBECCA:
Because of his sensitivity to, um, just the home that he grew up in. And so when we learn those things about our partner, we become more emotionally intimate with them. When we know them on a deeper level. And that's what caring for the relationship involves, is knowing one another that deep
SHAE:
That's so good.
REBECCA:
The vulnerabilities and the hangups and the hurts and, and tending to those and really not really trying not to hurt our partner in that way.
SHAE:
Right. Right. And the more you get to know their story, their trauma
REBECCA:
Yeah.
SHAE:
Their triggers. It not only helps you love them better, but show up better in those.
REBECCA:
Absolutely.
SHAE:
Conversations so that you're not avoiding conflict or weaponizing conflict and really triggering them.
REBECCA:
Yes, yeah.
SHAE:
I see you opening your Bible over, over there. So I'm like, for, are you about to say something really good over there?
JOEL:
Well, no, I was just thinking about, um, the vulnerability, like you said, the vulnerability. ANdI learned, um, once that, you know, the Latin word for vulnerability comes from the Latin word, um, re which means a willingness to be or opening up to be wounded, you know? And so like that's. Terrifying. Like that's a terrifying thing. And part of marriage is there's a vulnerability
REBECCA:
Yeah.
JOEL:
To it. And you're stepping in, whether in these categorical areas like financial, religious, sexual, or you know, in terms of intimacy or conflict, whatever it might be, there's a sense in which you walk into that relationship and you're making an intentional decision to, to trust somebody else. To rightly handle your heart.
REBECCA:
Yes.
JOEL:
You know, and in the absence of that, rightly handling, there can be wounding that takes place.
REBECCA:
Yeah.
JOEL:
Um, I remember I was getting ready to do a wedding for someone and I was studying kind of like, uh, Genesis chapter two, particularly in verse 24, where it says, this is why a man leaves his father and mother and bonds with his wife and they become one flesh. And um, you know, it's like, how come. Why is it so important to deal with these like root issues, these small issues, before they become big? Because I think that at that moment when we bond together, that bonding is really important, but we have to be careful that we don't leave crevices that are there for these small things to have like a little bit of leverage.
SHAE:
Yeah.
JOEL:
And all you need is a little bit of leverage.
REBECCA:
Right.
JOEL:
You know? And that little bit of leverage will be a means by which the enemy can use to create all kinds of separation, right? And chaos. Um, my wife is in her sourdough era. Have you guys heard about sourdough?
REBECCA:
Yes.
JOEL:
Like they're doing these sour Do you have a sourdough starter?
REBECCA:
No, but I want one.
JOEL:
Hey, we have one at the house. I'm…Britt can, can, and we have gone through four casualties. Let me tell you, we have gone through four sour casualties.
SHAE:
I have heard it's a journey.
JOEL:
It is journey. I mean, they even had to change the temperature in my house, which I like care about my temperature, like apparently.
REBECCA:
Wow.
SHAE:
For colder or hotter.
JOEL:
I had to, I like to keep it house cold.
REBECCA:
I don’t know I might not…I might not be cut out for that then.
JOEL:
It's this interesting thing though, that all you need is just a little bit of the scraps of the starter though. And if you feed it, it just grows.
REBECCA:
Right.
JOEL:
Right. And I kind of. Think as an illustration when these little things that are undealt with that are aren't, you know, and they become leverages when you're supposed to have a tight seal of a bond. But you feed these things, they grow and they create chaos, and then there's a rip that happens.
REBECCA:
Yeah.
JOEL:
And then it's like, well, why does this hurt so much? Well, this is where the research was so. Interesting that English word bonds comes from a Hebrew word that is the same word that's used of the scales of an alligator to protect the alligator. And then in terms of etymology, it's actually the same word that's also used later on to describe like the metal breastplate that's used to protect, like in metallurgy, um, you know, your vital organs, you know. And so for instance, when we talk about divorce or we talk about, um, you know, the death of a marriage, right? And people are like, oh my gosh, this is so painful. I typically respond like of course it is?
REBCCA:
Right.
JOEL:
Like of, of course it is like, imagine the scales of an alligator getting ripped off and it's like, that's painful. 'cause once it bonds, it was never intended to be ripped off in such a way. And so that's why I think, Rebecca, I'm so grateful for you and, and, uh, Shae for just kind of pointing these things out because it's these little things that have to be addressed, otherwise it will create this chaos.
SHAE:
And the opposite is true as well, I think. When you're in a season where your marriage is the best it's ever been, I think that overflows into every other area of your life.
JOEL:
Yeah.
SHAE:
You know, because it's such an important, unique, distinguished relationship. And then the opposite is true, like you said, Joel, when there's pain in that
JOEL:
Mm-hmm.
SHAE:
Relationship, you
REBECCA:
Yes.
SHAE:
You feel like you can't see straight.
JOEL:
Yeah.
SHAE:
Yes, it is. It's, it is like all consuming. But it's like you said, it is, it's because that wounding took place.
JOEL:
Mm-hmm.
REBECCA:
So that vulnerability, that's how important these bonds are.
SHAE:
Right.
REBECCA:
They are literally safety or danger cues in our brain.
SHAE:
Wow.
REBECCA:
When we are securely bonded, it's like a safety cue, like you said. It flows into everything else we can show up in the world. Um, very competent and capable.
SHAE:
Mm-hmm.
REBECCA:
And when that bond is fractured, it feeds. Into everything else in our life. And we have a hard time showing up the way we need to because that bond is safety or danger in our brain.
SHAE:
Yeah. And that bond, that safety contributes to the connection.
REBECCA:
Yeah.
SHAE:
And you've talked about fighting for connection and coming together from a connected place. Well, you circle back a little bit to, uh, conflict or fighting. It could even be something you're trying to tackle together. Let's say you've got an issue with one of your kids or something. It's not conflict necessarily between you guys and your marriage, but it's something you have to tackle together.
REBECCA:
Yeah.
SHAE:
Uh, what does it look like to to tackle those issues, to fight for those things from a place that's connected? When you feel safe, what does that actually look like practically?
REBECCA:
So to your point, you have to recognize that the issue is not husband or wife.
SHAE:
Right. But the issue is
SHAE:
the other person
REBECCA:
separate.
SHAE:
Mm-hmm.
REBECCA:
Right. Even the conflict or the, sometimes I like to refer to it as the negative cycle that you can get into where you know one person is critical and one person withdraws.
SHAE:
Sure.
REBECCA:
That's a typical cycle
SHAE:
dynamic.
REBECCA:
But recognizing that the dynamic that's keeping you stuck is the enemy and your partner is not the enemy.
SHAE:
Yeah.
JOEL:
Wow.
REBECCA:
And so when you're. When you are doing conflict from a connected place, it's, we are going to connect before we try to solve this issue.
SHAE:
Oh, okay.
REBECCA:
Usually we try to solve the issue. Let's argue it out, let's see which person is gonna get their way, and then we'll,
SHAE:
but then you're not getting anywhere sometimes. And would you say that's because you're disconnected?
REBECCA:
Yes.
SHAE:
Okay.
REBECCA:
Because when you're connected, you're able to listen and slow down and understand the other person's perspective to honor it, to acknowledge it, even validate it. Mm. And when both people feel like, okay, I'm seen, right? My perspective is valid here. Now you are connected and you can move into solving from a place of how do we help both people meet the needs that they have in this conflict.
SHAE:
Yeah. That's so good. I love that so much. So we've talked about conflict and necessary conversations. We've talked about connection and really trying to regain connection before we solve issues. We've talked about, um, trust and safety and vulnerability. Um, this has been so good. I, I really also just want to go back to something you said too, of the importance of knowing your partner's story.
REBECCA:
Yeah.
SHAE:
And just. Even through, I mean, depending on how long you've been married, maybe some of us haven't asked those questions in a long time. Of really sitting with our partner and asking them like questions about their growing up years or, you know, conflict styles they saw on their parents, or, you know, you would know better things to ask. I'm trying to think of things on the fly. Yeah. But truthfully, I think. As the longer you've been together, it's easier to kind of get in your routines and be like, I know them. And of course you do. But that doesn't necessarily mean you're sitting and asking those intentional questions. And I think I'm personally challenged today after listening to you to really revisit some of those parts of my husband's story so that I can better show up for him in those ways. Um, but to close today, as we kind of wrap up this conversation, I thought it would be good, and I'm gonna put you on the spot just a little bit, but I'll go first so that you have time to think about it. Okay. But I feel like as I was just looking at all three of us at this table, we all represent a different season of life mm-hmm. Of marriage and a different season of family life.
SHAE:
So I'm. Married. I've been married a little over three years. We don't have kids yet. You, Joel, are in like the active parenting
JOEL:
Yes.
SHAE:
Years.
JOEL:
Yes.
SHAE:
Your kids are 14 to?
JOEL:
14 to six.
SHAE:
14 to six, okay. Your kids, Rebecca, are older. You've been married how long?
REBECCA:
25 years.
SHAE:
25 years. And you're at
JOEL:
16.
SHAE:
16. Okay. So we all are in these different stages of life and in marriage and so I would just love for each of us to share. Something you're learning right now a a word of encouragement you have.
SHAE:
Because chances are for every single person listening, maybe they fall into one of our categories, if you will, of family life or marriage. Um, and just leave like a word of encouragement or something you're learning right now, and I think that would be a great way to end.
SHAE:
So I'll start and I would say. Something that I am realizing, and in this season of life, it's kind of an ongoing life thing, if you will. I remember being in college and people telling me, you're never gonna have as much time as you do right now.
JOEL:
Mm-hmm.
SHAE:
But Shae in college did not believe that I, I mean, maybe I had the time, but I filled it with stuff. But then I look back and I'm like. I was only in class for 12 hours a week. Like what was going on?
REBECCA:
Those were the days.
JOEL:
Those were the days.
SHAE:
Those were the days.
JOEL:
Oh man.
SHAE:
Those were the days. And you know what? I feel like. That those were the days. I'm so glad you said that can be applied to so many seasons because I know that, I know that, I know Elliot and I are in one of those seasons right now.
SHAE:
Well, we were, we will look back and say those were the days. Yeah. Yeah. Where we have the most time, the least responsibility. As far as no kids. No, we don't even have a pet guys. We don't even have a dog. I don't have a cat. I don't even have a goldfish. Okay.
JOEL:
Yeah. Yeah.
SHAE:
So truly, I mean, this season of life is, it is a season of, um. Yeah, investing in our marriage. And I don't wanna miss that. And I think I saw a clip from Craig Rochelle, I mean, incredible man and just man of faith in, um, our culture today. But he said something like, if you're gonna neglect. Something, don't let it be your marriage. There are so many other things that we can neglect and, and if you're gonna neglect something, it better not be your marriage.
SHAE:
And it really just got me thinking about all the things that beg for our attention or you know, and our culture right now. People like obsessed with their protein goals and their routines and their cold plunging and all of that stuff, and I love that stuff too. But it's so easy for those things that seem important to become ultimate things.
JOEL:
Mm-hmm.
SHAE:
And I want my marriage to be an ultimate thing. And so I'm challenged just to really realize that we are in the good old days right now. And to really invest in that time and not let it slip away. Um, and to not neglect that, you know. So that's what I, that's my encouragement and also just my reminder to myself to either one of y'all wanna go next,
JOEL:
I can go next.
SHAE:
Okay. Let's go.
JOEL:
You know, I think that, uh, for Britt and I, it's actually Rebecca, one of the things that you said, uh, we just were talking about this other day that we are very different than who we were when we first got married. Yeah. I mean, we're talking married for 16, going on 17 years, have known each other for close to 20 years. So it's like what? Um, and we're also in a unique. Or interesting season where when we do an audit of a lot of the people that we all got married kind of around the same time, it's a bit tragic because there's a lot of people that just didn't make it.
SHAE:
Right.
JOEL:
You know, and we look back on it and we were doing a little bit of an assessment, like how, like what happened. And I think one of the things that we learned, um, early on, I think we stumbled into it. I don't think we like, just, were like, oh yeah, I got, you know, we were like really in fire, like being refined into it. Was recognizing that it wasn't a mistake when we made a decision to get married together, that it was a covenant that we made together.
JOEL:
And it wasn't based off of emotions.
SHAE:
Right.
JOEL:
It wasn't based off of feelings. Yeah. It was based on like this is a covenant commitment to each other. Yeah. And part of that was that then created the almost allegiance and order and how we made decisions moving forward. Yeah. And an aspect of that too is. We created space for each other to develop the way that God was developing us, while always trying to do our very best to keep him at the forefront of that relationship.
JOEL:
So we have changed significantly over the years, but in the process of change, because we kept the Lord at the center of it, we've changed in a way that. Maintains the distinction of who we are, but we're still growing together in Jesus.
SHAE:
Yeah, you've changed together.
REBECCA:
Yeah.
JOEL:
Yeah. Um, and I just think that that's kind of an important thing.
JOEL:
And there's parts of it where Brett has been very honest with me. Some hard conversations when job opportunities have come up, when you know where she's been. Like, I just, that's not where I feel like the Lord has called me. And I was like. Oh, well, God called us together. So if he hasn't called you to that, that makes this decision so easy for me.
SHAE:
Right?
JOEL:
Because I'm not doing that. 'cause I'm, you know. Yeah. And vice versa. And so, but that's been a really hard thing that we stumbled into that I wish I had that kind of information at the very beginning to create that space for each of us to grow and to love who we uniquely are. As we've grown and not like have resentment or regret over, but I married her from back then and she's not that person.
JOEL:
I'm like, oh, this is a better Brit than a better.
SHAE:
But what's so cool, Joel, is maybe you stumbled into it, but you just intentionally. Laid it out there. For someone else that's listening today that's gonna hear that and they won't have to stumble their way through that. So that's so good. Okay. Rebecca, what do you have for us?
REBECCA:
So true. So I would echo a ton of things you said in terms of growing together and growing as individuals. I think as, as we've grown as individuals, we've been involved in our own things, there was a very brief. Two and a half years where we worked together.
JOEL:
Wow.
REBECCA:
In the church.
JOEL:
We wanna hear about this.
REBECCA:
It was not good for me. My husband loved it, but I felt like he was invading my territory. But what my husband realized
SHAE:
Is that why it was brief?
REBECCA:
That's why it was brief. Um, but what was, what's so amazing about my husband is that he realized that even though he loved that. It wasn't for me that I needed my own space to, to grow and allow God to grow me and develop me. And so we, we did that and we both have a, a good balance where we're, we have things where we're, we're growing separately. And then we have always prioritized our time together. Right. Yeah. Our kids always saw us going on date nights And they saw us going on vacations together.
SHAE:
Mm-hmm.
REBECCA:
And so we've, we've always had this good blend of we've, we've had our own thing and we've had a lot of things together. Yeah. And I think that that's really important too. And everybody may be a little bit different in that, but I certainly needed the blend of that.
SHAE:
Yeah.
REBECCA:
And then with our kids, like really, um. Learning them at all of their stages of life. And also holding our parenting a little open-handed, because we're doing it for the first time all the time. And knowing that we're going to know them as adults much longer than we knew them as children.
JOEL:
Which is a wild thought, by the way.
REBECCA:
Wild. Like just because it feels like this is never going to end.
JOEL:
Yes. 100%.
REBECCA:
The stage that you're in.
JOEL:
I had some friend mention that to me the other day and I was like, I've never thought about that. Yeah. Like, oh, that's so hopeful.
REBECCA:
It feels like it's never going to end. And in my mind I thought it would never end. And then when my first son was a senior in high school, I thought, this is ending.
JOEL:
Right?
REBECCA:
Right. What is going to happen? And for, for women, I can, I can speak, you know, for women that probably are experiencing this, their kids go to college and all of a sudden I'm like. Oh, it's time to really focus on my career now.
SHAE:
Mm-hmm.
REBECCA:
What does the Lord have for me? Right. Whereas my husband's like, can I play more golf? And how long till I retire? I'm like going this way.
JOEL:
Wow.
SHAE:
Why is…Pause? Why is golf the longest hobby?
REBECCA:
I don't know
SHAE:
that they could have found, I, it's so the time consuming. It's so long.
REBECCA:
It's so long.
SHAE:
But it's okay because, but it's great.
REBECCA:
As previously stated, I like time to myself.
SHAE:
Right, right. We need both. We need both. That was just my, my three second. Tangent about, about God.
REBECCA:
So I guess my encouragement for folks is life and the Lord are gonna take you on a great adventure. Yeah. And if you can just cleave to your partner.
JOEL:
Mm-hmm.
REBECCA:
And you guys can continue to get to know each other at each stage, he will take you on a grand adventure together. And separately.
SHAE:
Yeah.
REBECCA:
And in each stage there's something new to learn. And when you have a partner that you love. And that knows you so well, it really is. I think there's a lot of joy in the journey.
SHAE:
That's so good. Such a good place to end today, friends. I hope wherever you're listening, whether you're in a season where you feel like your marriage is flourishing and thriving, or maybe you're in a season where you're longing for marriage. I pray that you listen to today's episode and that you're encouraged as you're going on dates or you're in a season of dating, and it gives you some kind of parameters of things to think about, or even if you're in a season where you're marriage is suffering or hurting.
SHAE:
I hope that you feel encouraged and met today. With wisdom, but also, honestly just friends who are in your corner, okay? Who know what it feels like to have those days. And so we are with you. We're for you. And as you fight for your family, I pray that you also fight for your marriage.
SHAE:
And now it's time for Listener Mail, where we respond to your questions. Today's listener mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm. So excited to tell you more about compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful, practical ways. Through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus' name. We've seen the impact of sponsorship firsthand through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and hope of the gospel. And now we want to invite you to join us in sponsoring a child. When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 Ministry study guide titled, keep Holding On as our thank you for investing in the Life of a Child. Go to compassion.com/lisa to choose a child to sponsor today.
SHAE:
Okay, friends, let's hear today's question. This listener says, I went through a hard breakup two years ago. I thought God was in it as it. Seemed to be everything I had prayed for and for the first time in my life I pictured my future with a guy so clearly, but unfortunately it didn't work out. The pain has gone thankfully, but I'll admit, I still grieve the dreams I had, the kids, the house, and what could have been My question is how can I trust? God, when my life has taken a different turn than I hoped or imagined. I'm gonna pass it off to Lisa Turkers to answer this question
LYSA:
First, I wanna acknowledge that what you've been through is really, really hard. I know what it's like to have dreams of the future, snatched away, and then grieving. Those things that you thought would be, I've often said grief is like dreaming in reverse. You see, when you're dreaming about the future, you're looking forward to things happening, but grief is dreaming in reverse. When you go back and you think, wow, it was really good back then and you're doubtful that it can happen again.
LYSA:
And so that's, that's really tough and I wanted to acknowledge that with you. I know that it can. Also seems so confusing when you felt so certain about how something was gonna turn out, and then something happens that's different and then your trust in God is a little shaken. Here's an interesting fact if.
LYSA:
You look at the word trust in the Bible, um, often the word that's used is Bata, B-A-T-A-H. That's the Hebrew word for trust. And when Bata is directed toward other humans, it's often used in a negative sense. But when Bata, the word trust is directed toward God, it's always in a positive sense. And I think there's a message for us there, like we can trust God.
LYSA:
Even when we don't understand what he allows because he is trustworthy. I know it's hard to reconcile that with the outcome that you're facing, but here's a a story from my own life that I think could help you with this. When I was going through the breakup of my marriage, so many dreams died. I was having such a hard time because when you love deep, you love big, and therefore you hurt deep and you hurt big.
LYSA:
And I'm a very sentimental person. But in the middle of all of that, I, uh, just another hard thing had happened and so I had. All kinds of extra time because I was grieving, I wasn't working and I had extra time to go make different appointments with different doctors. And one of those appointments that I made, um, even though it wasn't time yet, but just because I had extra time on my hands, I did it.
LYSA:
I went and got a mammogram. And then shortly after that I was very surprisingly diagnosed with breast cancer. And so then the question of course became. Okay, so because I had extra time, I went to the doctor and because I went to the doctor so early, they caught the cancer early enough and my life was spared.
LYSA:
So was my marriage falling apart the worst thing that could have happened, or was it the best. Thing because I stopped working and it gave me time to go do this appointment. I don't know the answer to that question, but I think when I take a step back, I can see this with great clarity. God loves us too much to answer our prayers at any other time than the right time, and in any other way than the right way.
LYSA:
What the future looks like for you? I don't know. But I do know who's already standing in the future, and that is a God that we absolutely can trust. So I wonder as you pray about your future, if instead of starting with the uncertainty, if you start with what is certain, God is good. God is good to me, and God is good at being God.