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Technology's daily show (formerly the Technology Brothers Podcast). Streaming live on X and YouTube from 11 - 2 PM PST Monday - Friday. Available on X, Apple, Spotify, and YouTube.
You're watching TBPN. Today is Wednesday, 10/01/2025. We are live from the TBPN Ultradome, the Temple Of Technology, the fortress
Speaker 2:of finance, the capital of capital.
Speaker 1:The stable of stablecoins. We got a horse stable. Behind you.
Speaker 2:We have a real horse behind us.
Speaker 1:We have
Speaker 2:a Real horse today? Statue.
Speaker 1:Not a real horse.
Speaker 2:Can we statue. Hand to something more like a watch?
Speaker 1:There we go. Look at this. Fantastic. Wonderful new addition. Thank you to everyone that supported us.
Speaker 1:Thank you to everyone in the chat. You made this possible. Now, we have a horse in the in the studio.
Speaker 2:Wouldn't have been possible without the chat.
Speaker 1:The slop could never. You have to this is craft.
Speaker 2:This is an antidote
Speaker 1:to slop. This is an antidote to slop.
Speaker 2:This is craft. This is craft. So if you're frustrated with all the AI slop that you're being forced to see Yep. Commission a physical monument to beauty Yes. Power.
Speaker 1:Yes. Get a massive statue.
Speaker 2:Magnificent as the horse. Obviously, those that watch the show know this show is about technology, business, and the equestrian lifestyle. Yep.
Speaker 1:There is a we're obviously going to be talking about Sora
Speaker 3:basically, all day.
Speaker 2:It's how massive.
Speaker 3:It's really big. That's what you wanted, though.
Speaker 1:You asked for a big horse. You got a big horse.
Speaker 2:I asked Ben
Speaker 1:It's not even a bigger than a real horse. It might even be smaller than a real horse.
Speaker 2:Feel like a real horse
Speaker 1:is bigger.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's a bit taller.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I don't know. We'll have to get a real horse in here and compare it next to one another. There is going to be a huge arms race for making content that definitively cannot be made with AI, right? There's something that's going to be, oh, when you're shooting something, let's deliberately try and stay away from the AI aesthetic, right?
Speaker 1:Don't you think that's going to be a Yeah,
Speaker 2:and as soon as there's one example of something, you can just almost
Speaker 1:I don't know. I think it's fun to push the envelope and find stuff. Like, I was playing around with both Sora and Vibes last night, and I was trying to get it to generate me and Tyler walking around an M. C. Escher type staircase with like, you know, M.
Speaker 1:C. Escher paintings where the staircases kind of go off at different angles and it kind of breaks physics. And both models were falling flat on their face. If you've seen INCEPTION, there's a scene where Christopher Nolan uses CGI and some camera trickery to kind of recreate an endless staircase in a real film. And AI would definitely struggle with that.
Speaker 1:There's a few examples Yeah. Of For
Speaker 2:me, I use the second that I realize something is AI generated, I usually just scroll by it. But if I'm seeing a startup launch video that's obviously AI, I watch like half a second and keep scrolling. Because today, in general, if you could tell it's AI, it's usually somewhat of a low effort thing and it's probably not worth watching. Yep. Same thing with comments online.
Speaker 2:Everybody's been reading a response to a post or something like Oh, no. This is not And the second I realized it's AI, I just keep scrolling.
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 2:Because it's just generally a good filter for quality. Yep. And I actually am worried that the day will come where I no longer can tell. And certainly it's probably happening already, and I just don't know it. But
Speaker 1:Yeah. But I think people will continue to be able to innovate and come up with different things. I mean, even just like this shows in three hours long, it's very clear that we're not AI generated because the models only go for ten seconds. There's a million different things that you can bring to bear. One funny thing that I saw Sora fall flat on was it passes the liquid refraction test where you take a glass of water, you put arrows behind it, and as you fill up the water, the water in real life refracts the arrow and reverses the arrow.
Speaker 1:And for a long time, AI video models fell down on this. They didn't understand physics at that level. Now Sora passes it. The one place where I saw Sora fall flat, another place as opposed to M. C.
Speaker 1:Escher stuff, was you know those balls that go the metal balls that go back and forth? You saw this, Tyler? Did you see the one that failed, where it was just one ball bouncing back and forth, and it didn't understand how the physics would transfer to the from the
Speaker 4:left? Newton's cradle.
Speaker 1:Newton's cradle. That's right. And I noticed that our sponsor, Ramp, ramp.com, Time is Money, Save, both easy use corporate cards, bill payments, accounting, and a whole lot more, all in one place. They launched a, publicity stunt, massive campaign.
Speaker 3:Kevin from
Speaker 1:The Kevin from The Office in there. And in the video, it had it shot extremely cinematically. A lot of people would probably be like, oh, is this AI? But just maybe they had foreknowledge of where Sora two would fall down, but they had a real footage of Newton's cradle, and it's doing the real thing. And so it was just very funny that I saw this clip in that video that was the one thing that you can't do with AI, and it's in there and it lets you know that it's real.
Speaker 1:And so we will be, of course, following that campaign. As it goes out, it's fun. Ramps, obviously, expanding the market very aggressively, going after tons of businesses inside and outside of Silicon Valley. And no way no better way to do it than with a household name, like big influencer, is what happened with say one.
Speaker 2:Household name in finance.
Speaker 1:Household name in finance, certainly. Kevin from the office. Household name everywhere in The U. S, honestly. Anyway, the slop versus farming debate.
Speaker 1:I got kind of messy with the metaphor in today's newsletter, but I was digging into the reactions to Sora. And my question was, know, slop is bad. We, the timeline, don't want to be pigs at the trough.
Speaker 2:And by the way, this this this last angle here, not AI. This is a camera that is on a
Speaker 1:Oh, are we ready to do a,
Speaker 2:what is it, like, effectively RC operated Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes. Yeah. This is real, slide. So we have this animated camera now or motion, I don't know, slider. It seems like the boys are ready to give some love to Julius.
Speaker 1:Julius dot AI, the AI data analyst. Let's Connect through data. Ask questions in plain English and get insights in seconds.
Speaker 2:Go. They are
Speaker 1:pumped up for Let's hear it. Everyone's going crazy in the TVPN UltraDome for Julius dot AI, the AI data analyst.
Speaker 2:That came out of nowhere.
Speaker 1:Ridiculous. Anyway, we don't like when tech leaders treat us like farm animals. We, the timeline, of course. But we do love farming. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I was trying to map this because we don't like slop. We don't like pigs at the trough. We like farm to table. Think farming is Lindy. There's this whole idea of like, get off of the internet, touch grass.
Speaker 1:Where do you find grass? On a farm, obviously. And once you and there's something about returning to a world where we're farming, but if you're a farmer, you're filling up troughs on a daily basis. And so like, how do I put these two things together? This idea that like we don't like slop, we don't want to be pigs, but we do want to be farmers, we do want to create slop.
Speaker 1:Is the farmer no longer noble because the farmer fills up the pig's trough with slop? Is that bad?
Speaker 2:Well, pig farming and farming.
Speaker 1:Two different things. You think now it's like, oh, it's not enough just to be a regular farmer. You've to be a farmer of crops, like crumble
Speaker 2:Well, I think about a farm that is supplying a neighborhood restaurant that focuses on organic farm to table food, I'm not thinking pork.
Speaker 1:You don't think pork's gonna be on the menu? Troughs. You don't think some some pork cutlets will be served at some point? I don't know. Some delicious bacon in a breakfast burrito,
Speaker 2:I farm to can go way down the the pork rabbit hole.
Speaker 1:There are plenty of other animals that eat a trough, eat slop essentially. Is it just pigs that eat slop? I don't know. But my question I would just
Speaker 2:say, put differently, I think a lot of people enjoy free range content. Yes, indeed. So want
Speaker 1:free range content, head over to restream.aio. One livestream, 30 plus destinations, multi stream, reach your audience, wherever they are. So there are now three different AI video products that have all been received very, very differently. So Google DeepMind did launch with YouTube. Like, you can generate slop videos, AI videos with v o three in YouTube, and YouTube scales massive.
Speaker 1:And so we should be seeing a lot more of that. But YouTube's focused on the creator first. Meta, superintelligence, launched Vibes in the Meta AI app. It's a purely AI video feed based on Midjourney. And OpenAI now has Sora.
Speaker 1:And so understanding the three different strategies, who the customer is, how they think about different ways to bootstrap these new networks, all of that's very interesting to me.
Speaker 2:Where is MetaAI on the App Store right now?
Speaker 1:Figure it out. So YouTube has Number 17 productivity. Number 17 productivity. YouTube has typically beaten with slop allegations just because even though there's a lot of faceless channels out there, there is straight up AI content. I see some of it on YouTube where you click and it's like, this new car is coming out, and it's just completely fake.
Speaker 1:Like, nothing about it is real. It's just like, you know, Ferrari launched a new car. And you're just like, you click on it, then it's just like, this is just lies? It's it's not Yeah. It's beyond slop.
Speaker 1:It's like, it's just completely fake clickbait, just optimized for getting Yeah,
Speaker 2:it's not entertain yeah, it's view farming.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I'm fine if there's something that's grounded in reality and then it's
Speaker 2:to be entertainment.
Speaker 1:Totally, totally. But so so those are clearly annoying. But in general, think YouTube has dodged the slop allegations mostly because there are so many creators who have like crazy niche interests.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:What were saying?
Speaker 2:Well, it's so it's so I mean, YouTube went from being, subscriber
Speaker 1:to Locust. Algo driven.
Speaker 2:Algo driven. And a lot of the slop that I'm seeing is friends of mine, people that I follow on X and they're just sharing it because it's funny and novel and new. But I don't know if I'll be seeing quite as much in a week.
Speaker 1:We don't see Ghibli's that often anymore. And is this the Ghibli moment, or is this the ChatGPT moment? Opening Eye was certainly framing it as the ChatGPT moment. But we'll see. We'll keep following it.
Speaker 1:Instagram also feels similar. Yeah.
Speaker 2:What do they call it? The chat GPT moment
Speaker 1:For video. For video creation. For so I wasn't able to come to a strong conclusion. But I just kind of in the newsletter today, you go to tbpn.com, throw your email in there.
Speaker 2:Everyone's looking great This chat, Raghav. It's good slop. A good slop.
Speaker 1:Love the chat.
Speaker 2:Please, Thank sir. Just one
Speaker 1:more slop. I had I had five questions that I think we should debate. Tyler's back in a wonderful looking suit. Your new suit is looking fantastic. Like that dark green.
Speaker 1:The TB green, it really works for you. I got a brown suit. I should have worn it today. I think it matches that very well. It brings us into the fall, into the winter.
Speaker 1:We're we're we're
Speaker 2:First day of q '4.
Speaker 1:First day of q four.
Speaker 2:It's a massive celebration. Happy q four.
Speaker 1:Happy q four. Happy q four to Privy. Wallet infrastructure for every bank. Privy makes it easy to build on crypto rails, securely spin up white label wallets, sign transactions, and integrate on chain infrastructure all through one simple API. So, the first first, maybe we should cover Ben Thompson's take because he gave some extra context on Sora.
Speaker 1:He says some things are old, some things are new. File iPhone dominance of anything new and interesting into the former. The coolest new apps came first to the iPhone in the smartphone era. And if that is still the case in the AI era, can you still say that Because Apple is the Android app for Sora is not live yet, which is, again, crazy considering, like, if code generation's good, shouldn't you just be able to say, like, take our iOS app and translate it into Android and push it out? Rune, you said you were
Speaker 2:hyping up codecs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, hit codecs a couple times, buddy. Just Made it happen. Just clearly One that
Speaker 2:should be one prompt by this point.
Speaker 1:There are economic considerations, too. Like, the iPhone audience won't monetize better than the Android audience, most likely. But Ben Thompson continues. He says, what is new is the reality that compelling AI video generation is very much here and it's widespread. Over the last three weeks, we have actual AI video products from Google, Meta, and now OpenAI.
Speaker 1:What is so fascinating is how diverse these products are, how different they are. Google's building features for YouTube. Meta is building the the app aptly named Vibes to take you away into fantastical worlds. OpenAI is letting you make as many variations of Sam Altman as you can handle. Indeed, it feels like each company is an entirely different target audience.
Speaker 1:YouTube is making tools. Meta is making the ultimate lean back, dream like experience. And OpenAI is making an app that, in my estimation, is easiest for normal people to use. And he outlines this idea of the 99
Speaker 2:And the most entertainment value. Which one? Sora.
Speaker 1:That's not Ben Thompson's take, but that's
Speaker 2:your That's my my personal take is that I think they did an incredible job creating meme, basically memes, video memes. That's what they are.
Speaker 1:So quickly, to level seven ninety nine one rule. This is the idea that in social media or in technology, 90% of users consume, they're the pigs. 9% of users edit and distribute, They're the farm hands. And 1% of users create. They're the private equity firm that rolls up the farms.
Speaker 2:That's the pork the pork
Speaker 1:The pork barrel politics who are redistricting farms and layering tranches of debt. I don't know. The pork roll up. No. The creators are probably the farmers, I would think in this analogy.
Speaker 1:And the editors and the distributors are the farmhands. So he says, if you were to categorize the target market of these AI video entrants, you might say that YouTube focused on the 1% of creators. OpenAI is focused on the 9% of editors, distributors. I don't know how much I agree with that. And Meta is focused on the 90% of users One who
Speaker 2:percent of users are the hog farmers.
Speaker 1:That's really stretched the analogy as far as possible. Hog farmers. This is when we're at our best.
Speaker 2:Or the pork producers.
Speaker 1:Yes. They're pretty Yes. I mean, farms do have multiple tiers of of workers on the on the farm. It's not it's not that crazy of analogy. So Ben Thompson, this is where he gives what it feels like at least to you as a contrarian take.
Speaker 1:He says, speaking as someone who is, at least for now, more interested in consuming AI content than distributing or creating it, I find Meta Vibes app genuinely compelling. The Soar app feels like a parlor trick, if I'm being honest, and I'm tired of my feed pretty quickly. I'm going to refrain on passing judgment on YouTube because he mostly watches very specific videos there. He says he has no idea if the evaluation is broadly applicable because who knows if he's like the median The reason
Speaker 2:that I think Sora
Speaker 1:He says he likes the three.
Speaker 2:Out of the three, think Sora feels like the best strategy, and that is reflected in the charts right now. YouTube v o three is great, but not to the point where you're one shotting entire scenes or certainly not one shotting videos. It can
Speaker 1:Pretty good.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But it can't create anything that's truly compelling.
Speaker 1:Is that just because it doesn't have the Cameo feature and you can't put Sam Altman in there? I mean, I made videos that were fun. I made videos of Yeah. You driving a Ferrari through the Hollywood Sign. That
Speaker 2:was I I think if I think if it was you can only use v o three to create viral YouTube videos
Speaker 5:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Maybe if you you being like very talented and understanding YouTube while you could do it, it would be very hard and probably harder than just doing things normally.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Meta vibes, the content is is cool but not interesting
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:At all. I haven't I I I let you demo Meta Vibes. Yeah. I I had a I wasn't super interested in it. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So that that content, in general, wouldn't even do that well on Instagram. Right?
Speaker 1:I don't know. It does do well. I follow one of those accounts on Instagram that takes mid journey photos and slashes them up into 1980s vibe reels of Swiss bankers in Berlin in the '80s, and they put a cool song over it. And I'm into it. I don't see it that often.
Speaker 1:Most of my Instagram For You page is bodybuilding content that's 100 farm to table.
Speaker 3:I Then James Arnold,
Speaker 1:I James just found that in James Arnold, they've of
Speaker 2:right now can create wild scenes. Mhmm. And I think Sora leaned into to where the technology is today Mhmm. In that it can be if it has the right sort of memeable moments Mhmm. It can be viral by itself.
Speaker 2:Yes. Content can be entertaining and be standalone. Watching Sam Altman steal GPUs from a CVS is a human generated idea, excellent of deliberate idea, was able to somebody was probably had to do a few prompts to get ultimately something that was entertaining and went viral. Yep. Not even in not even in Sora.
Speaker 2:I'm sure it did well in Sora, but going viral on X Yep. And started a conversation. Not a single thing that v o three has that I've seen from v o three or vibes has started a conversation Mhmm. Or really gone viral outside of the wow, this model's good. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So a a I like, video models today are good at generating short scenes. If you make them memeable and if you make it easy, these things can go viral. And so and from my point of view, I think that Sora is the best product
Speaker 1:I got three seventy two likes, 20,000 views on VO three is amazing, but there are some hallucinations. We're gonna have to shoot this practically of us blasting through the Hollywood sign in a yellow Ferrari. It's not bad.
Speaker 2:It didn't Yeah, start coming again, to the you have you've been posting about AI daily
Speaker 1:for Yes, yes. A And it's a good demo of the product. So you're reacting to the model. And it's
Speaker 2:tied back into art.
Speaker 1:And also, might like it
Speaker 2:because it's funny that if you showed that to a stranger, they'd be like, thank you for wasting ninety seconds of my life, John.
Speaker 1:Was eight seconds. It was eight seconds.
Speaker 2:If you walked up to somebody on Melrose and you said, look at this video.
Speaker 3:You use ChatGPT. Here's the CEO. Did you see
Speaker 2:him stealing GPUs from CVS? They'd be like, oh, that's crazy. Know, like, more of a reaction than just
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's a good model. I I just I this is weird, but I agree with Ben that that if I had to watch ten minutes of one feed over the other, I would pick Vibes over Sora. Because the Sora
Speaker 2:is so
Speaker 1:chaotic, and it's so I'm
Speaker 2:not saying I want to watch It's
Speaker 1:more Uncanny Valley. That's what it is. It's more Uncanny Valley. It it gives me more, like, jitters when I watch Sora videos than when if I watch a mid journey video on meta vibes. I'm just like, okay.
Speaker 1:I'm listening to real music. It's clearly it is trying to be illustrated. It's not trying to be photo real. And then I'm like, oh, the leg was a little bit off. It's like, well, yeah, like, of course, the in the steampunk, cyberpunk world, like, the suns didn't line up perfectly.
Speaker 1:I'm not even I'm suspending all my Yeah. You know, my
Speaker 2:I'm not saying I wanna go in the sore feet. I wanna go in the trough and slop.
Speaker 1:But if you had to go in a trough, which one would you go in? That's the thing. Ben's saying
Speaker 3:that I would say vibe is
Speaker 2:trough, what that stop is going get me and watch a video Yeah. If I see it on X or Instagram or anywhere else
Speaker 3:Right now
Speaker 2:YouTube. Right now, it's Sora.
Speaker 1:So a 100%.
Speaker 2:I agree. So I'm saying the output is better. It's more built for the Internet today. It's not just a research project or it it's genuinely creating net new content for the internet that people seem to be very entertained by?
Speaker 1:Yep. So Ben Thompson continues and kind of lays out a question about how successful this will be, and we'll debate this more as I get to my questions. But he says, The company resolutely this is OpenAI resolutely claims that they had no idea ChatuchuBT would be popular, now feels confident declaring that they're about to repeat one of the most seminal moments in the entire history of technology. I'm not so sure, and that's about the OpenAI team saying that Sora is the ChatGPT moment of video. And Ben Thompson says, Sora to Sora, is too, is, to be clear, amazing, and the app is very easy to use.
Speaker 1:What matters in terms of creating moments that matter, however, is consumption. And while creation is obviously a prerequisite to consumption, it's not the main thing. What made ChatGPT unique was that LLMs immediately deliver perfectly customized content for each individual user to consume based on the most basic of prompts. In this, the fact that text is cheap and easy, it was critical. People create video, however, for others, And I'm not just I'm just not sold that AI video that the AI video that Sora app that the Sora app enables, easy though it may be to make, is that interesting to anyone other than the creator.
Speaker 1:And so you might get a laugh out of making a video for yourself, but how wide ranging is gonna is that gonna be? And it does seem to be their cameo strategy. Right? Like, it's like Tyler made a video of me bench pressing and then turning into a golden retriever. And it was really only funny for me and him.
Speaker 1:Maybe a few other people would think that's funny. But that's not going to do well. Maybe people will come up with stuff that really does go viral in the app. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, the question that's most important to me is I think Sora is a great tool for AI content creation. I think it is the best tool to create AI content for the current internet, which is Algo4U video feeds. It's the best product for that today. If if if you went and and, you know, imagine you give three creators.
Speaker 2:It's like, you get v o three, you get meta vibes, and you get Sora. Who's gonna have the most views after the end of a week? Right? I would say that Sora is, like, massively overpowered in terms of just generating attention. I think you're right.
Speaker 2:But scrolling the feed feels like it would make you go absolutely no. It is a it is it is not fun. I've made it
Speaker 1:You might be fun to push
Speaker 2:far, I've opened the I I I took your feedback on not actually using the the meta vibes app Mhmm. Just going off of the vibes That's fine. And your your experience with it. I've opened store a few times and I've made it about like three Swipes? Swipes.
Speaker 1:Three Three chugs of the trough.
Speaker 2:Three three spoonfuls. Three spoonfuls. And gotten to the point where it just feels really bad for you.
Speaker 1:It feels
Speaker 2:It feels
Speaker 1:crazy. Editing too, like, when even just like the cuts from one scene to another are really like out of place and jarring. It it makes my scene crawl. Like, a lot of the videos are not good. And like, just like it feels weird and bad.
Speaker 1:Like, I don't know that it'll stay that way. If you
Speaker 2:It makes me yeah. That that's the question. Will AI video always send a signal Yeah. Almost a a a a silent signal that you are unsafe as a human?
Speaker 3:That's what it feels like today. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or can can can they cross the
Speaker 1:Uncanny Valley. Yeah. Uncanny Valley, getting out of that, and then also just what happens when you're like, if you if I talk to ChatGPT as like a person and I try and treat it like a person, it does give me the same reaction, where I'm like, this is weird. Why is it glazing me or whatever? It's like it's sycophantic or whatnot.
Speaker 1:But when I use ChatGPT for knowledge retrieval, I'm very happy. And I'm like, give me the facts. Give me the data on this company or whatever. And I could imagine a world where there's some sort of video that's generated automatically that I feel is much more tactical. It's not trying to fool me.
Speaker 1:It's not it is upfront about what it is, and that is more satisfying. I don't know. Anyway
Speaker 2:Yeah. Mean, it makes total sense from a business model stamp. You know, just like a business strategy standpoint to create this. Right? They're gonna be able to I imagine if they can even get if they could get a million people using this swiping, creating, etcetera, consistently, that will give them that will be very helpful in making the model better and better and better and better and better, and it'll make the app better and it'll probably get more users.
Speaker 2:Question I was thinking about is does this even if they even if they create a Snapchat sized business. Mhmm. It's sort of a rounding error on their market cap. Right?
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:Snapchat. How many you you should know this, Tyler. How many how many user how many DAUs does Snapchat have?
Speaker 1:Let me think about that. Clearly churning, not being that you churn from clearly allegations.
Speaker 4:63,000,000?
Speaker 1:That's a fair amount. I don't know. Well, first question I had that I wanted to sort of debate is like, how did OpenAI do this? I ended the last newsletter asking that question. For the past month or two, there's been this vibe that Google D MIND had a material moat around video generation because they had control over YouTube.
Speaker 1:MSL, Meta Superintelligence, they have access to all of Facebook and Instagram video. And a lot of people cross post all sorts of YouTube videos to Instagram and Facebook. What you got for
Speaker 3:us?
Speaker 4:I just want to fact check what I said. That's totally wrong. It's 60,000,000.
Speaker 1:460,000,000. Jordy, that's a lot of users. DAUs. That's a lot of users. Yeah.
Speaker 1:DAUs, 460? Must be international. Yeah. Must be everywhere. Wow.
Speaker 1:Well, what's interesting is that OpenAI didn't have a clear dance partner from which to source literally, YouTube has billions of hours of video. That's so much data. And so the OpenAI clearly found a creative solution. One of those things that was reported was that if you had copyrighted content, you had to tell OpenAI, I want to opt out, pull me out of the training set. Otherwise, would train on it, and we're going to react to some Sora videos that are very clearly like Mario intellectual property.
Speaker 1:And so they figured out some workaround where they could train on and basically And remember that's owned by other people and
Speaker 4:they'll figure Monday,
Speaker 2:it came out that they they met they they let they let various IP holders know you have twenty four hours And to opt clearly, lot of them, I guess, didn't react quickly enough.
Speaker 1:I actually, I got hit with one of I I found a I found a reference that I couldn't it said content violation. So I, of course, was prompting a golden retriever with a man body wearing a suit doing a podcast, because I'd seen this on meta vibes, I was like, let me bring this over to and see what Sora can do with it. So you can imagine a mid journey with a man in a suit but with a dog head, a golden retriever head on a podcast. But the song that was playing in the meta vibes reel was one of my favorite songs, Dumbest Girl Alive by one hundred Gex. And and I and so in my prompt to Sora, I said, Golden retriever with man body, wearing a suit, doing a podcast, Dumbest Girl Alive by one hundred gags play song playing over the video because I wanted to know, could it put the correct song over there like I can do in Meta Vibes?
Speaker 1:Is it truly comparable video generation? And it hit me with a, hey, we can't do that. This is a content violation. What do think?
Speaker 4:So so I actually saw another version of this where it was Sweater Weather. Yes. And that was like, it the lyrics were wrong, but you could very clearly tell that
Speaker 3:like this, it was the same song. Yeah. And so So
Speaker 1:what I imagine is that there are certain deals with certain record labels, some record labels, some IP owners, some IP aggregators have said, opt me out entirely. And then others have said, hey, just pay me if you monetize my work, like what happens on TikTok, like what happens on YouTube. Others might say, Don't put me in at all. Others might say, Hey, I didn't get a chance. Didn't get the memo.
Speaker 1:Just train on me. Do whatever. Just go wild profit off of it entirely. You get 100%. And then I imagine that there's a second filter that's happening on top of all the prompts and all the content to say, is this acceptable based on content policies?
Speaker 1:Is this explicit? Is this adult content? Ban that. If so, and then also, is this infringing on IP that we don't want to infringe on? Let's pull that down.
Speaker 1:And so I don't exactly know
Speaker 2:exactly Yeah, one thing that OpenAI broadly is world class at is style transfer. This is why the Studio Ghibli moment happened. It was perfect very, very consistently. Right? And we saw this again yesterday with people doing their own versions of South Park.
Speaker 2:Right? Like, the
Speaker 1:South Park is one shot at it.
Speaker 2:It looks you could convince me
Speaker 1:Rick and Morty.
Speaker 2:If if the if the dialogue wasn't too crazy, you could convince me that that was a real scene.
Speaker 1:Especially on the video fidelity. It looks fantastic. There are others that we're gonna react to today that clearly didn't get opted out of the of the training set, and so they're And in who knows how that develops? But this is the story of all social media. Like, YouTube was was, you know, not really on top of copyright holders as they grew that business.
Speaker 1:When they got acquired by Google, Google had a massive settlement and I believe paid almost a billion dollars, like, maybe more than the actual acquisition price Yeah. To settle those lawsuits and get in good with the
Speaker 2:We need a option market on how big the ultimate settlement for the class action
Speaker 1:Yeah. That would There might be a one time settlement. There might just be a rev share agreement. I mean, that's what happens on YouTube today is that if you go and steal my content and you upload this and you start getting AdSense revenue, Google will just route that to me. If you steal some of this video, you take a TBPN clip, you put it up there.
Speaker 1:And if it starts getting views and starts generating ads, it'll be automatically claimed and come over. I will also have the opportunity to take it down. But by default, I'll just get the revenue share over here. And there's a whole niche business of shuffling around these payments. And you can imagine the same thing.
Speaker 1:I mean, the same thing happened with TikTok, where TikTok was abusing that fifteen second preview in the Apple Music preview. Do you remember this, Jordy? I do. So, yeah. Like, in Apple Music, in the iTunes app, you could preview fifteen seconds of any song.
Speaker 1:Because they were like, well, you'd pay for
Speaker 3:the That
Speaker 2:was genius.
Speaker 1:Pay a dollar
Speaker 2:for Credit to ByteDance
Speaker 6:for that.
Speaker 2:Incredible. Was a genius hack.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it was credit to ByteDance. Think was Musically, the company before.
Speaker 2:Okay. Same thing.
Speaker 1:Eventually, the same thing, But that was something where it was very unclear how that would pencil out. And ultimately, the record labels got in a good spot with TikTok, I think, and they're happy with the promotion and rev shares that they get. And and it doesn't feel like there's active lawsuits.
Speaker 2:So Yep.
Speaker 1:There's something going on here where either OpenAI is moving fast and breaking things and will pay a big settlement or they already have contracts in place and will be sharing revenues over time with how much likeness goes. You can already see this with the Cameos, where if you upload your Cameo and then someone uses your Cameo to generate a ton of views, they go viral with it. There's a bunch of ads associated with that. It would be pretty easy to flow, Okay, this video generated $10,000 of ad value. We're going to in YouTube, you get $5,000 of that, basically half.
Speaker 1:It's like 45% or something, 55%. So you take half of that, put that into the creator payout. And then from the
Speaker 2:Thanks, Nick.
Speaker 1:From the 50% rev share, you could also slice it up even more. So imagine if you upload a YouTube Yeah.
Speaker 2:And this is something that we were talking about earlier off the air. How does how does OpenA like, right now, Sora is a great AI video creation tool. Yep. That's undeniable. If they can build a network, they'll have to create durable incentives for people to build audiences, invest in making audiences Mhmm.
Speaker 2:On Sora and not just creating the content, taking it to other apps where they already have a big audience. Right? Yep. The incentive now is to make it on Sora.
Speaker 1:That didn't matter that didn't matter on on YouTube. Right? Or on on Instagram. Like, Instagram was a photo filtering app that bootstrapped a social network on the back of it.
Speaker 2:Sure. I'm not saying it's a bad strategy. Yeah. I'm just saying they have to create an economic incentive over time. Like, on on like, sure, it's great that there's a you need supply before you can have demand.
Speaker 2:Yep. Right? But I think that what TikTok did well, what YouTube did well, what all these platforms did is they ultimately became a place where creators could get attention, they could get money. Right? Torah needs to drive user minutes in the app watching Yes.
Speaker 2:I I
Speaker 1:agree with that. I think it's maybe
Speaker 2:But but the the last thing what what I was gonna yeah. And I too. Because it's pretty is if if people if IP holders, like if if people can create John Coogan content Yeah. And get a rev share or something and then you get a split Yep. That can create an economic engine that will just drive more activity.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Right now, if you look at faceless accounts on other platforms, they historically are very, very difficult to monetize. So if you have a meme account on Instagram Yep. Good luck making money on that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:They're you can have a million followers, it's and it's really tough to Totally. Get much value out of it at all.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 2:And same thing for totally faceless, non personality driven YouTube channels, Same thing with x accounts that just share breaking, right? And they're pretty much worthless. So
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think act one bootstrap the network on the back of a creative tool. You go there to create a video that you might share elsewhere. But it's shared by default, there's liquidity in the system. And there's content there for those who do want to scroll it.
Speaker 2:And The then challenge right now that? The challenge right now is I go on the app. I hate it. Mhmm. I wanna leave.
Speaker 2:Maybe I go on later today to try to create a video Mhmm. And I stick around for a little bit. Mhmm. Maybe the content gets better and better over time. But they gotta make it so that it's not disgusting to look at.
Speaker 2:And can't be understated, the Do you think timeline absolutely Yeah. The timeline absolutely hates it.
Speaker 1:The timeline hates it.
Speaker 2:They could not hate it more. I think people Yeah. This is a this is kind of the first time that I feel like people are really impressed with the quality of the outputs from a model
Speaker 1:I see.
Speaker 2:But hate it. With Studio Ghibli, it was like, okay, this is really impressive. You can one shot this incredible style transfer. Yep. It's magical.
Speaker 2:You look at it. It sparked joy.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Some people are getting that a little bit, but at the same time, it's it's rough. Right? Andrew Mc McCallop Yeah. Said he was quoting William Fettis, who's coming on later. Yesterday, William announced Periodic Labs.
Speaker 2:Their goal is to create an AI scientist. William's coming on the show later today, we're excited about. But Andrew said, I'm embarrassed for the existing AI players. Imagine sitting on compute empires yet not operating a Bell Labs style effort to discover new physics or materials. This is infinitely more valuable to humanity than another video slot machine.
Speaker 2:Slot machine. Slot machine. Machine. Of course, Sam Altman already responded to some of the various frustrations that people had. Let me try to pull this up.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It said so this came from runner Tushar. He said, Sam Altman two weeks ago, we need $7,000,000,000,000 and 10 gigawatts to cure cancer.
Speaker 2:Remember I was
Speaker 1:saying Sam Altman actually said, have to cure cancer.
Speaker 2:No, he was basically saying there's a world in the future where we might have to choose between free education for everyone and curing cancer. And basically implying, give like, me a trillion dollars or you're gonna have to we're gonna have to make this call. Don't make me make the call. Yep. Turns out there's a third demand.
Speaker 2:There's a third demand. Right? So you might have to you know, he might be in a position where he has to, you know, choose between the infinite slot machine and free education curing cancer. He's making the argument. Responded to this and said, I get the vibe here, but we do mostly need the capital for build AI.
Speaker 1:It was a typo. But you know it's
Speaker 2:an API. This is good. This is good. He put a typo in here intentionally to show that he wrote it himself. He said, we do mostly need the capital for build AI that can do science.
Speaker 2:And for sure
Speaker 1:For building AI that can do science.
Speaker 2:And And for sure, are focused on AGI with almost all of our research effort. Incredible that they were able to create a tool this this impressive with so little of their research effort. It is also nice to show people cool new tech products along the way, make them smile, and hopefully make some money given all the compute need. When we launched ChatGPT, there was a lot of who needs this and where is AGI. Reality is nuanced when it comes to optimal trajectories for companies.
Speaker 2:Totally agree there. And, yeah, a lot of people were speculating, did Meta rush the Vibes app to try to be first to market?
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And it'll be interesting to see how the meta's down 1.8% today. Hard to read too much into it. I don't I don't there there's a number of other factors including that people now believe Zach will spend all of their free cash flow on CapEx. Yeah. So some some various factors here.
Speaker 2:But but, yeah, certainly impressive that that Sora was able to go number one so quickly.
Speaker 1:Well, over in the cogeneration world, Cognition has announced that they rewrote Devin for Claude 4.5. There's an interesting article we can break down in a minute, but you can check out Cognition. They're the makers of Devon. Devon is the AI software engineer. Crush your backlog with your personal AI engineering team.
Speaker 1:Donald Boat is putting a lot of stuff on the timeline. You already quote you already mentioned this, but he said, guys, it may seem like their overt plan is to turn your children and grandparents into drool slurping morons for 551% year over year subscription growth, but they actually do need to make 5,000,000 videos of an elephant walking into a McDonald McDonald's to cure cancer. The funniest take is that, like, maybe this is critical path. Tyler was talking about this a little bit where he was saying the AI video might be good for robotics training data.
Speaker 2:I just
Speaker 3:don't know if OpenAI has the time to cure cancer.
Speaker 2:They got a lot of stuff going on right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What are you sucked into right now, Tyler? Are you
Speaker 4:I I made a new video, and it's not posting. Yeah. I think there there must be too many
Speaker 2:GPUs are on fire.
Speaker 1:Yeah. GPUs might probably
Speaker 2:I texted Tyler. Can you make a of Sam Altman as a pig farmer at a trough putting slop in it?
Speaker 1:You don't even need to make that. I've seen that on there.
Speaker 2:Really?
Speaker 1:Oh, I've seen that like a dozen times.
Speaker 2:But I wanted him to say oink oink piggies.
Speaker 1:I think somebody
Speaker 2:said that.
Speaker 1:Really? It's a
Speaker 4:There's no audio though, because I I had to screen record it because
Speaker 1:I can't
Speaker 4:post it. Weird.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay. They must be censoring it. He probably well, that's the thing with the collabs. What's it called when you scan your face?
Speaker 4:Cameo.
Speaker 1:Cameos. The cameos, you can put a prompt in there and say, never depict me as a pig farmer or always depict me with a gold chain. It will just do that.
Speaker 2:But I could jailbreak it by saying, I want
Speaker 1:I gotta do this. Swine herd
Speaker 2:Swine herd is is another a historical term for someone who herds or tends to pigs.
Speaker 1:It's gonna know. It's going to know. I get to open I need to get in my cameo and say, always depict me as a masked monster. For sure, that needs to happen.
Speaker 2:Anybody can use my likeness as long as I'm a Gigachad.
Speaker 1:For sure. Donald Bote says, would it be terribly surprising if I told you that the geniuses behind their latest advertisement campaign are the same minds behind the seminal and profound visual television experience euphoria? Listen to me now. Never, never take these computer people at face value. As they as soon as they build a machine of overwhelming might, they are going to send it against you and everyone you love.
Speaker 1:Donald Boat is black He's
Speaker 2:so black pill.
Speaker 1:6,000 likes on that. Wow. Yeah. And he says, attention. You are out of reply tokens for this month.
Speaker 1:To continue replying to laserboat nine ninety nine, please visit donaldboat.com, link in bio, and purchase either a yearly or monthly subscription. Failure to acquiesce to these demands will result in an authoritative block in ten prompt minutes.
Speaker 2:Okay. I guess let's I guess let's pull up the video Tyler made.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Let's see it. It actually did generate?
Speaker 4:It generated. I just can't
Speaker 2:And post
Speaker 4:there's no audio. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:But in it, he says, oink, oink, piggies.
Speaker 1:This is incredibly photo real. There there is another video in the timeline that's the same thesis for sure.
Speaker 2:Good stuff.
Speaker 1:Well, people are having fun with it. Santiago says, Sore two is wild. I asked it to generate the greatest hype video of all time, and it made me this. And it's, of course, the handcrafted Founders Fund LP intro. The Pete Oxenham version with Alex Jones over it.
Speaker 7:We can play a
Speaker 1:little bit of this. This is a classic.
Speaker 7:It's great.
Speaker 3:Instead of looking up to Thomas Jefferson That's enough of that. Looking up to the colon This
Speaker 1:is the whole thing. It's kinda like putting pineapple on a pizza.
Speaker 2:You and you watch that every morning when you wake up.
Speaker 1:Every morning. Yes. Every morning.
Speaker 2:Throw on your Meta Quest and just fully experience it. Well, Manida says if you genuinely believed you were two to four years away from AGI, is Sora really the thing you'd release? Brandon says, Jacoby says, sadly, yes. Man was given the whole garden and we chose to we chose to just indulge in the apple.
Speaker 1:Interesting. Brandon Jacoby, one of the greatest designers in history. True. Of course, his tool of choice is Figma. Think bigger, build faster.
Speaker 1:Figma helps design and development teams build great products together.
Speaker 2:I've spent many late evenings in Figma with Brandon Cooking. Some of some of the highlights of my career.
Speaker 1:Okay. We got a timeline in turmoil. Boo. Andrew Wilkinson, the tiny man himself, says, I think OpenAI just killed TikTok. I'm already laughing my head off and hooked on my Sora feed.
Speaker 1:And now the number one barrier to posting, the ability to sing, dance, perform, edit is gone. Just a 100% imagination, RIP to theater kids. Hunter Weiss says no shot. And Theo says, I can't stop thinking about how bad this ticket was and gets a thousand likes on it. Almost ratios.
Speaker 1:Doesn't quite. What do you think? Is this a material threat to TikTok? Is TikTok now overvalued at 14,000,000,000? A minute ago, you were saying, oh, 14,000,000,000 is too low for TikTok.
Speaker 1:Maybe maybe TikTok's a $200,000,000 company now. Maybe maybe they just killed it.
Speaker 3:Well, I think it
Speaker 2:I mean, we gotta talk about TikTok again because something I I wasn't even thinking about, I feel silly now, is that they're probably just gonna take TikTok public, and it will immediately trade up. TikTok is not gonna trade. If TikTok US is public today
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:It does not trade anywhere near $14,000,000,000
Speaker 1:Where do think it trades?
Speaker 2:Think it I mean, so they do I think there's a 50%. At roughly $15,000,000,000 run rate For revenue. If you assume they're going to be around for a long time
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And can get quite profitable if they stop doing this TikTok shop mumbo jumbo Yep. That feels like it could trade at 10x revenue.
Speaker 1:Yep. So it's possible to cross
Speaker 2:border trades.
Speaker 1:Although that was not just The US business broken out. But most people were expecting this deal to land at like fifty, sixty.
Speaker 2:Bydance always was valued far less than the metas of the world.
Speaker 1:So the new entity is
Speaker 2:But for good reason.
Speaker 1:Is, I think, sharing 50% profits with the Chinese entity. There's some flowback of cash flow. So you can't
Speaker 2:The public markets don't care about cash flow, John.
Speaker 1:Maybe. But you know what is interesting? So Sam Altman is building Sora. He needs an endless trove of training data. Larry Ellison just bought TikTok.
Speaker 1:Larry Ellison runs Oracle, which has a massive deal.
Speaker 2:We need some get the red string
Speaker 3:But ready,
Speaker 1:Oracle has a deal with OpenAI for massive data centers. How are you going to justify burning all those GPUs? You need valuable services on top of them. There's a world where there's a TikTok OpenAI data deal, la the Reddit deal that happened that kind of empowered ChatGPT, right? Like, what do you think, Tyler?
Speaker 4:I think it's also, like, not that insane to just imagine that in one to two years when the tech kind of, like, trickles down, you just see TikTok release their own version that's just trained on their own feed.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Maybe. That's fairly I mean, at $14,000,000,000 also, like, it's an acquisition target for OpenAI. Like, they're at 500 or something right now, and they're buying Love From in the billions, why not pick up TikTok and then have, a huge audience to bootstrap a new network with, tons of training
Speaker 3:Well, why not buy Snap, too?
Speaker 1:There is an argument for them.
Speaker 2:Snap. TikTok.
Speaker 1:Just aggregate them all. Probably I mean, they're private, it's got to be easier to get deals across the line. But you know that there's going be some lawsuits, there's going be some people fighting that in the antitrust world. But it's justify hard if your two biggest Foundation Lab competitors are MSL and Google DeepMind, and they have YouTube Shorts and Instagram Reels. It's not that crazy to say, hey, I'm Sam Ulman.
Speaker 1:I run the another lab, and I want a play in vertical video. Give me this. I don't know. I don't think OpenAI just killed TikTok. Think Well, OpenAI I think I disagree with this with this Andrew Wilkinson take.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I mean, he he obviously structured this post to to rage bait. We shouldn't shouldn't read too much into it. Yes.
Speaker 1:But In general, I mean, I I I
Speaker 2:think The the whole the the just another reason why it's overly dramatic is that, you
Speaker 3:know,
Speaker 2:social networks, while scale is critical, are not, you know, TikTok didn't kill Snapchat. Yes. Yes. Didn't kill Snapchat. Yes.
Speaker 2:Right? These are
Speaker 1:was, like, the my the one hard post Open AI. Comment is
Speaker 2:There was some reporting that ChatGPT is referencing Reddit less. Yes. Probably because Reddit is just becoming entirely ChatGPT
Speaker 1:Maybe.
Speaker 2:Generated. They're down 11% today on that study.
Speaker 1:Well, you've got to get on ProFound. Get your brand mentioned in ChatGPT. Reach millions of consumers who are using AI to discover products and brands. Kind of ProFound. Yeah, my definitive take on the Sora thing was people vastly overestimate the amount of brain rot that will happen in a year and underestimate the amount of brain rot that will happen in a decade.
Speaker 1:I think that it's good to have these conversations about the slop farm and avoiding brain rot and searching out Lindy formats for content and not wasting all your time consuming sugar and candy, essentially. But I do think yeah, some people are debating me in the chat. But I do think that I would be very surprised if the
Speaker 2:No, I think they're talking about Andrew Wilkinson.
Speaker 1:Oh, Andrew Wilkinson. Okay. Well, you're you're free to disagree with me, too. I don't care.
Speaker 2:Healthy debate.
Speaker 1:The but the the idea that the Soar app I I think you you this was your point was that the Soar app will will will not
Speaker 2:to Soora now. They're not having to acquire them all organically through people sharing content, etcetera. And we saw this with threads where threads had an initial pop, fell off dramatically, and now has climbed and reportedly has more weekly actives than x now.
Speaker 1:So And the only and the only flywheel there is that they surface some threads on Instagram. And then you just click one button.
Speaker 2:You can't. You can only see the first, like, 10 words.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:You're like, I wanna know what this is.
Speaker 1:And and it just brings you over. And they just do a little bit of that every day with a billion plus users. And when you have a massive, massive user base, you can just grow
Speaker 3:it, grow it, grow it very, very slowly. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Akshay over at Notion says, why do we keep dedicating our brightest minds billions of dollars in the most powerful GPUs on earth to build yet another app that optimizes for attention decay? I was hoping ChatGPT seemed to reclaim time from TikTok, and I don't have But it says Reply. Reclaim time from TikTok and Instagram. It felt useful, even nourishing, but now we see disposable videos, same engagement, treadmill, and path to ads. If even our nonprofits can't resist this gravity, what does
Speaker 3:that say about it? Of course,
Speaker 2:SOAR was released by the for profit arm of the nonprofit.
Speaker 1:Yeah. SIGNAL has some pushback on that. He says, unfortunately, ads fund research. Google Ads funded DeepMind.
Speaker 2:I would say fortunately.
Speaker 1:Fortunately, yeah. Meta ads, billions poured into ARVR. Open AI needs massive cash flow to bankroll AGI. The treadmill sucks, but it's also the only mechanism society has ever found to subsidize frontier science at scale. I say this as someone who despises ads.
Speaker 1:Eric Souffert, fantastic analyst, mobile dev memo, you should go subscribe, says, digital advertising is the most positive sum, economically expansionary technology summoned by humanity. No other technology has created more consumer surplus or stimulated more long tail economic activity. Digital advertising provides consumers with free access to products that would otherwise be out of reach to all but the richest segment of society. The existence of the Internet itself is dependent on digital advertising. And absent that commercial engine, it would cease to exist as a freely accessible commodity and would instead be a luxury good reserve for moguls and despots.
Speaker 1:I say this as someone who loves ads. Let's go. You, Eric Seufort, for saying the hard part that no one else had the bravery to say. You're on our side. And we should have Eric on the show.
Speaker 1:He is a fantastic interview, fantastic analyst. Have not spent enough time reaching out to him to get him on the show. Anyway Peter Gostiv. Speaking of ads, Vanta, automated compliance, managed risk, proved trust continuously. Vanta's trust management platform takes the manual work out of your security and compliance process.
Speaker 4:If you
Speaker 2:think it might be socked two time, it probably is.
Speaker 1:Just do it.
Speaker 2:Anyway, continue. Peter Gostov says, what are the chances that Meta found out about OpenAI's AI video social app plans, got a partnership with Midjourney Black Forest Labs, and rushed out a similar app just before OpenAI did? Nathan says, that's what happened. Yeah. The Vibes app always felt rushed.
Speaker 2:It felt tone deaf. I mean,
Speaker 1:you go to midjourney.com right now I think that's their domain. If you just go to the Midjourney website and you don't log in and you scroll, it's just meta vibes. It is the same thing. It's like Midjourney images with Black Forest Labs video animation on top of it, like eight second clips just extending one frame. And it's the exact same thing without music on top.
Speaker 1:And so I would love to be able to see inside what the Vibes project team was because it does feel like it was just a couple developers really, really fast, just a few features in there. Tyler, do have any other context on
Speaker 4:I mean, even like the the UI, if you're just looking at the UI of Vibes compared to Sora Yeah. Sora is like it's so much better.
Speaker 1:It's so much better.
Speaker 4:Like, just like the buttons, like, just look nicer. Totally. Like, it feels bad to use Vibes. Yep.
Speaker 1:Sora has they actually have a few unique UI features. I mean, Cameo thing is something that we hadn't seen elsewhere. Makes a lot of sense. We knew that fine tuning on a particular person was possible. And we've seen that with those magic avatars.
Speaker 1:But have you noticed that if you double tap on a Sora video, it will automatically it'll show like a little explosion of confetti, but then it picks an emoji that it thinks relates to the underlying content and shows that emoji. So if you're on video about dogs and you double tap, it will show you a dog emoji or a footprints emoji. And they do a really good job of kind of like mapping the videos to emojis. And that's just like a unique UI experience that I've never seen, similar to when the ChatGPT app came out and there was you remember when it was typing, it would like kind of thump in your hand? Do you remember that in the app?
Speaker 1:We kind of stopped
Speaker 4:Like the vibe it would like vibrate
Speaker 1:a little? It would vibrate a little bit as the tokens were streaming in. And it was just like, okay, someone over there at OpenAI on the iOS team is doing novel things, and that's exciting to me.
Speaker 4:Yeah. But I think think the emojis are actually good because sometimes I mean, the videos are like nine seconds long. I'm not going
Speaker 2:to sit through nine full seconds.
Speaker 4:I want to see what the video is about right when I do Immediately, yes. So I immediately get the emoji, I can see what the video is about, and then I can scroll faster. Yeah. Yeah. I'm consuming more.
Speaker 1:I think that's the big I think that's the big criticism. The videos are just too long on the on Sora. Someone should make a Sora competitor that's just like half a second every video.
Speaker 4:And it just genuinely, I think people would like use it more if the videos if they just basically sped up every video, like 1.5 x. Really? I think people would
Speaker 1:You wanna watch the Soar app like two x? That's so deranged. I hope we don't lose you, Tyler. It feels like one of these days, we're gonna give you an intern challenge that just takes you off the deep end and
Speaker 2:To his credit, he's gotta be ready for questions for three hours a day at
Speaker 1:that Randomly. Randomly.
Speaker 2:So he doesn't have the same time to to slap it up as others. Let's pull up this post from Joe Weisenthal in the timeline. He's sharing the video of did we play this already of Sam Altman stealing GPUs in a CVS? Or it looks kind of like a Target.
Speaker 1:This is from Gabriel Target. Who works at OpenAI. He was having fun with sales.
Speaker 2:I think the research lead on Sora.
Speaker 1:Yeah. He says, I have the most liked video was previously at mid tier. Now. Oh, he was. Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I will be enjoying this short moment while at last CCTV footage of Sam Altman stealing GPUs as it at a target for Sora inference. Let's play the video. We don't have it? Okay.
Speaker 1:Well, we
Speaker 3:do have an ad
Speaker 1:for graphite dot dev code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster. We will go back to the timeline.
Speaker 2:So Joe says, anyone who sees this video can instantly grasp the at least potential for malicious use. And yet nobody with any power, either in the public or at the corporate level, has anything to say, let alone do to address it or even acknowledge it. This isn't even a criticism, per se. The cat may be completely out of the bag. And it may be reality that there's literally nothing that can be done, particularly if open source models are only marginally behind.
Speaker 2:The thing that I don't think people are ready for is for a fully jailbroken website that you can go prompt to Soora
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Soora two quality with anything. No rules. Yes. Like John, but he lost 60 pounds. And he's frail.
Speaker 2:And he can't even bench a plate. If somebody Perfect. If somebody sent you failing to to to to even rep out, you know, a single rep
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:You would be devastated.
Speaker 1:I would be devastated.
Speaker 2:And you gotta be ready for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Tyler, what do you what do you think?
Speaker 4:I I I feel like I kind of disagree. Like, when you see the headline from, like, The Onion, it's like, you know it's it's like a joke. It's not real because, like, the you trust the the source it's Yeah. Coming So it's like a video yeah. Like, right now, you can just trust a video if it looks real.
Speaker 4:But soon, it'll just be like, oh, it's it's from the person I I don't know. It's like non reputable. And then you just don't trust them. I I don't think it's
Speaker 2:Yeah. But there's so many instances when you don't have a choice. Like, let's say you get a DM from someone randomly and they're and it's a video. It looks like a normal account. And then it's a picture of your dog being run over by a car.
Speaker 2:How is that gonna feel? You're gonna and let's say that only happens once every three years. That's still pretty that's still pretty rough.
Speaker 4:That's pretty bad. But I I'm I'm saying, like, in the in the sense of, like, persecuting someone for, like if someone was stealing from Target, like, you're not gonna use the video if you don't know that the video is from the Target store. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:Sure. Yeah. And I don't think I just think he's talking about the broad implications of not being able to trust. Like, you could Well, we already
Speaker 1:can't trust text, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We've never been able to trust text because anyone with a typewriter could go and type up, Geordie Hayes accused of murder.
Speaker 2:The guy just noticed Tyler Marbrose has reds on the desk. Got to actually
Speaker 1:No. Just stop right there. Yeah. Yeah. The cigarettes are AI generated.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But we already can't trust text, right? Because anyone can go and get a typewriter and type up Jordy Hayes accused of stealing at Target, right? And publish it on the internet or print it out and post it on a Yep. On a billboard, right, or or they can stick it to a to a telephone pole.
Speaker 1:People people have have have still built up, like, these trust networks and institutions. Maybe this
Speaker 3:I know. I'm just saying, like,
Speaker 2:video could be traumatizing for people.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not really a trauma bro. Yeah. But imagine seeing some terrible event, and it looks photorealistic. And now that's in your brain.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I agree with that. There is going to need to be more control for the networks and more control on I mean, there are like, if you go to Netflix, you can set parental advisories and say, I don't want to see any R rated content. Netflix, by default, doesn't show any adult content. But you can go in further and say, I only want to see things that are G rated and PG rated, right?
Speaker 1:And I would imagine that most of the platforms allow you to do that. They do a lot of it by themselves. So I think a lot of the platforms will handle that. Also, I don't know, people have just built up trust in all sorts of accounts, institutions, identities in the idea that if I'm following this person or this organization or this website for years, and they've built up years and years of trust that they will only that they will call it out when they're using an AI image or something like that. Like, I think that holds for longer than we thought.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And and remember, I watched my first movie, Mountain Gate Yes. Or my second after And I thought the plot was, like, pretty weak. It was entirely around this idea that the world is actually collapsing because it's going and extremely chaotic because so I'm I'm less worried about the I just think content is going to be made that should never be made. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And it's gonna be dark. Yeah. It's just gonna be dark. I'm not saying it's I'm not saying,
Speaker 1:like Most importantly, there's gonna be more of that dark content because you can because it's just so much easier. You can open after effects right now. You can open up Photoshop and drop man stabbing someone else, but, you know, it's gonna look like a maiden name of
Speaker 2:And you could have spent a million dollars to make a photorealistic CGI
Speaker 1:You could.
Speaker 2:Of an event. Yes. But nobody would ever do that. Yes. And now it'll cost nothing to do at scale.
Speaker 2:Anybody will be able to do it at all times. Yep. And it's just and
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's gonna take a while until it's actually free. Like, every sort of generation is very expensive to actually marshal all of the GPUs. Like, even if you're like, Okay, I'm just like a Neo Cloud, I need customers. I'm going to let someone do some inference.
Speaker 1:Like, there's going to be pushback on, oh, you're the one that's hosting this sketchy site that lets you generate celebrities killing each other or something like there's going to be pushback across the whole stack, the whole supply chain. And I do think it will take another couple of years for Sora three to pass the uncanny valley. It took CGI a long time. It'll probably take a few years. Then it'll take another year, a couple of years for like per generation cost to fall.
Speaker 1:And then it'll take another
Speaker 2:couple years. Couple other examples Gabe in the chat says the Ukraine war was all over the X feed. Right? Yes. I But I personally don't follow any of those accounts.
Speaker 2:Videos would pop up. I'd say, I'm not interested. Right? I just don't want I don't wanna be reading about technology Yeah. Through my friends Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then suddenly see somebody, you know, get blown up by a drone. Yet, I saw it a bunch. Yep. Charlie Kirk, assassination, same thing. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Pop. I was we were live at NICI. I opened my laptop, and I immediately saw the video. A lot of people saw the video that wouldn't have wouldn't have you know, if you gave them a choice, do you wanna see an assassination or not? They would have said no.
Speaker 2:But those people still saw it because of the way that content gets services.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Quick update on the TikTok sale. Polymarket has the announcement. The market only resolves to yes if ByteDance announces their intention to sell TikTok. It has to come from ByteDance.
Speaker 1:It's at 48% by December '30 by December 31, by the end of the year. It jumped to 84% and now is falling. So maybe there will be some retrading. Maybe the sale will be delayed. But we will keep tabs on the TikTok situation.
Speaker 1:There are some more videos. Do we want to react to more Sora videos? There's one of Minecraft plus GTA V with Sora two. Sort of cool to be able to mix prompts. This dub this is a great example of of what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:A thousand likes, 60,000 views on x. Who knows what it did in the also, underrated that Sora two can generate horizontal and vertical video. V o three is only horizontal. Vibes is only vertical. And so being able to do both, I think it's more of a creative tool than we think.
Speaker 1:But let's watch this Minecraft GTA five video.
Speaker 3:Still got two stars. They glued to it. Then craft them off. What you got? Just a block.
Speaker 3:Boom. That's one way to Marlo Santos. Let's mine some distance before they respond. Man, the city ain't ready for
Speaker 1:Man, that is rough. That is rough.
Speaker 2:We're never going get that time back. I'm sorry to everyone.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. I thought we were going to be I thought it was like, yeah, we'll do like a little reaction stream. We'll watch a bunch of videos and kind of give our reactions. And my reaction to every single video is like, oh, not quite there. And this is different than the Dolly or the Studio Ghibli's.
Speaker 1:I feel like that crossed the chasm. It crossed
Speaker 3:the What entity?
Speaker 1:Valley, and this has it in some way.
Speaker 2:Would love to I would love to understand open chat GBT's, like, most active user types. Mhmm. Because it feels like, you know, new technology, new product.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:It's probably, you know, heavily in that teenager to 40 year old range. And maybe Soar is their way of going after the Facebook Yeah. Know, the the 50 Yeah. You know, maybe retired
Speaker 1:Well, if you wanna generate some video for something that's not slop, you have a business use case, head over to Fall, the generative media platform for developers, the world's best generative image, video, and audio models all in one place. There are a bunch of other interesting ways that you can use these tools. You can develop and fine tune models with serverless GPUs and on demand clusters. Let's play this video from Vittorio of Mario boarding a SpaceX rocket. And BoneGPT says, a Japanese lawyer just made generational wealth off of this clip.
Speaker 1:And I'm one and the question I want you to answer, Jordy, is does this make you want to spend more money with Mario or less? Is this a substitute for Mario content, or is this an ad for the real deal? Let's play the video. It's photoreal. It looks like Mario.
Speaker 1:It doesn't really a a star SpaceX rocket.
Speaker 2:When you see examples of videos like that, I do believe that somebody could string enough of those together to keep a five year old heavily engaged.
Speaker 1:No. A 100%. There's no question. So bearish, bullish? I don't know.
Speaker 1:What does that mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, Mario bought that bought bought his Tesla before Elon went crazy. Mean, you are running
Speaker 4:all other
Speaker 1:if you're running a a kid's YouTube channel right now, you have got to be so excited, right? Because you can just generate so much more content that you're putting ads for actual toys in. And then you get an affiliate link to go and buy the Mario stuffed animal or something, and you're getting a cut of that. Like,
Speaker 2:David Holes hit the timeline
Speaker 1:Oh, he did. Said What did say?
Speaker 2:We need Lockheed Martin to develop to build us a truth seeking missile.
Speaker 1:He's like the most in the conversation right now and he's like, he's just posting about Lockheed. Anyway
Speaker 2:And Matt Matt Mullenwig replies to attack the truth?
Speaker 1:I guess.
Speaker 2:That's not what we need.
Speaker 1:Who knows? Truth is sinking missiles. Sterling Crispin says, infinite high quality media generated on a per user basis will erode our shared world model and narratives. This is what we were talking about earlier with trust in institutions and crazy stuff happening on the Internet. Expansive yet hyper niche culture bubbles forming around handfuls of people.
Speaker 1:The next generation may only have a few ideas they agree exist, a few nations and corporate entities. Everything else will be content produced just for them, unseen by anyone else. This will be accelerated by high quality AI bots that act as their friends and long distance lovers. These bots will form long lifelong relationships with individuals, getting to know them in deeper ways than any other person could. They'll create online social communities around an audience of just a few or one person, reducing people's need to share their experiences elsewhere.
Speaker 1:The music shows, movies, memes and in jokes shared in these bot based social communities will be generated on demand and entirely unseen by other people and vice versa, each person literally in their own world. And these content bot streams will be hyper focused to each individual's impulses and desires, giving them exactly what they want to see next, the ultimate fire hose of dopamine. It will be both extremely isolating and pleasurable in unimaginable ways. So it's gonna be ultimate internal war between
Speaker 2:You know he posted this in 2023.
Speaker 1:Wait. What? Wow. What So
Speaker 2:Sterling quoted this post from 2023 and said, reposting this now that Meta and OpenAI have shipped the product this tweet is about. The endgame is just in time per user generated content, leaving everyone hyper addicted and isolated with little to no shared cultural references between us.
Speaker 1:Who's not a fan? This difference in ability to influence and control these
Speaker 2:systems You should have an affiliate link for black pills.
Speaker 1:Those shaped by these systems and those shaping them, training and fine tuning the models is one thing. But using them versus being used by them is another. Are you the pig or are you the farmer? I suspect this skill will become the primary focus of higher education somewhere between prompt engineering, pattern recognition, and being a kind of neural network whisperer who's able to shape their reality through sheer willpower. Interesting.
Speaker 3:What do you think, Tyler?
Speaker 4:I think, like, maybe a steel man of, like, going against this is, like, you still see with, like even though there's, like, you know, insane brain rot, like, there's so many videos that there's, infinite videos you can watch. There's still, like, even within Brain Rot, there's, like, distinct characters or something that that people still like to come back to. Because a lot of, like, the reason people like these things, I I think, is because you can share them with your friends. Yeah. And, like, if if it's if everything is completely customized to you, you can never share it because it it will be like completely unintelligible.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 4:So there's some maybe there's still some kind of like shared, you know, cultural Yeah. Thing going on despite it being completely custom to each person, there's still something you can kind of share around. The Hays paradox.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Hays paradox. I think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, this idea that I have content, and I basically have a social network that's just for my family, which is like the iMessage group chat and the photo feed that goes in there. It's like you can share family photos with other people, an extended family, but it's not I'm not really like, my kid photos don't really hit with other people. I'm not really in that world. But then I have have Jordy, we have in jokes with our group chat of guy friends, basically.
Speaker 1:That's a very tight circle. And then larger we group chats that are maybe a couple 100 people. There's Dunbar's number, 150 people. Then there's the TBPN community and everyone on X. And then there's when we get something that really hits, it goes viral.
Speaker 1:And so layers of abstraction that you can operate on that I don't know, they keep some sort of semblance of relevance. And then I don't know if there's anything that only I find interesting. Maybe that is the true Hayes paradox. Maybe we're we're going into a world of of more Hayes paradox content
Speaker 2:Yeah. The concept you find funny.
Speaker 1:No one else is like
Speaker 2:Obviously, we're we're joking around a little bit here. But the the I propose the Hayes paradox, which is the more funny you find something as an individual, the less likely that the masses will find it funny. So it's inversely correlated, which is when you maybe have a funny idea for a post that's cracking you up
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And no one else
Speaker 1:gets Because it's too niche. We we
Speaker 3:saw It this
Speaker 2:requires too many niche references. Yep.
Speaker 1:We saw this with we were joking about, like, Ben Thompson being on vacation a particular day, and there was some joke about that. And, like, unless you're, you know, unless you understand our context and then also the Ben Thomason context, there was like 100 people that would get that joke, whatever we posted. And so it just didn't do well. But I did notice that a few people who liked it were like, my friends, my real friends, people in real life. And it hit
Speaker 2:Well, the certain I like finding a video or meme that I know I'm not going to send to anybody but you. Yes,
Speaker 1:yes. Just the six person group chat or just the family group chat or just the small niche community on X. Or the bigger, broader community. And stuff goes viral all over the internet.
Speaker 2:Brian Lovin says, Soratu looks impressive. What's even more impressive is how little I care to watch anything made using it. The Notion team is just firing shots.
Speaker 1:They're going hard today. Well, is Notion? They are. Notion's on Turbo Puffer, search every byte, serverless vector, full text search. We're built from first principles in object storage, fast, 10 x cheaper, and extremely scalable.
Speaker 1:Knew I I had a layup there because it's such a logical partnership between those two companies.
Speaker 2:Alex Albert, who we had on the show yesterday, says over these next few years, it's going to become more and more important that you resist letting slob consume you. Keep creating. Keep learning. Keep thinking.
Speaker 1:There is a wild, wild divide between, like, the slop farm video apps and then the coding agents. Like, no one's really leveling slop complaints about coding agents. And I and it's something about, like, I don't know, you don't just consume it or I don't know. What what
Speaker 2:do think?
Speaker 4:I think there are some people who are, like, vibe coding apps just produce, like, slop code. But there is definitely still a difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I guess there's still so much of a human in the loop. And it's such a and most of the code that will be written with Claude 4.5 is doing stuff that I don't know. It's just like it's automating manual processes. It's not something that you're looking for craft in necessarily.
Speaker 2:Tom Osman in the chat says Hog Engineering.
Speaker 1:Just post engineer post Hog Engineering.
Speaker 2:No, Hog Engineering. It's the slop vibe coding app.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I don't know. There's a bunch of great memes in here. Parham has a photo of an image loading in images in Chateappity. We need more compute to cure cancer, right?
Speaker 1:It's like a Bart Simpson or Lisa Simpson image loading.
Speaker 2:Casey Neistat had a good summary of Sora's TikTok, but all AI but with real people.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Very interesting. Can we play the the Casey Neistat video of him reviewing a giant nicotine pouch?
Speaker 3:Size slider. I'm gonna try it. Oh my gosh. It's like a pillow in my lip.
Speaker 1:It's crazy and allowed. Super Zen. This is this is allowed content because
Speaker 3:Size of a slider.
Speaker 1:Did he make this? Did someone else make this with him? Did he upload his avatar or his his cameo and allow that? And then in general
Speaker 2:spritz in Yeah.
Speaker 1:Too. I mean, yeah. You think PMI's on top of this? Like, oh, know, how how is our IP being used in?
Speaker 2:Well, I
Speaker 8:don't think
Speaker 2:I don't think PMI would mind that at all.
Speaker 1:No. Not at all. And so there's this
Speaker 2:weird ad for zen. Totally.
Speaker 1:They can't advertise on typical social media platforms. So yeah, very, very odd times. Odd trade off if you're a CEO of some legacy company with some IP, with a brand, and you want to know, well, you know, what's what has Coca Cola thought about Instagram over the past three years? It's been like, how do we get Coca Cola in every Instagram influencers mailbox? Like, we we need to be on that platform.
Speaker 1:What's our strategy? We need to buy ads. We need
Speaker 6:do people's We
Speaker 1:need to get a private plane, put all the Coca Cola influencers on a plane, have them post about it, right? Like, we talked with Emily Sundberg about this. Like, the name of the game has been, like, get your brand on Instagram. And now there's this there's going to be a question for a lot of brands, like, how do they get their brand mentioned in Sora? That'll be an interesting thing.
Speaker 1:Maybe James from ProFound will chime in on recommendations for strategy for brands, for creators, for folks that aren't just deciding whether or not to consume. Tyler?
Speaker 4:May maybe an interesting idea is, like, once these models kind of get out, like, at least to some extent in, like, open source stuff where you can make your own model, I think it'd be cool if some, like, big company basically does free inference, but they fine tune it so that every video has their, like, their product in it. So Coca Cola releases Mhmm. Like, some, like, platform where it's free inference. You can do any video you want, but every single video has the the bottle in it. Yeah.
Speaker 4:I think that could be an interesting idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I'd like that. We could definitely That would be potentially
Speaker 2:abused to degrees never before.
Speaker 1:You know what people are going to go and do. They're going to try and degrade the brand that's providing that free inference immediately.
Speaker 2:4chan would go.
Speaker 1:It's like when 4chan tried to send Justin Bieber to North Korea. It's the best. Like, the internet is creative beyond all imagination, which is maybe the bull case here. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Seed says, not even excited about the new Clot or OpenAI stuff today. Kind of lost its hype. Wow. Benchmarks are 2% better. Wow.
Speaker 2:Shopify can now be used to show products. Who cares, man? Where is the cool stuff? We hit AGI months ago, and nothing functionally has changed
Speaker 3:since. Since?
Speaker 1:We hit major AGI months ago.
Speaker 2:And that's what I was saying.
Speaker 1:You show a
Speaker 2:major advancement in the technology, innovative stuff at the product level. And people are sad about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Very odd. Well, people aren't sad about linear because linear is
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Purpose built tool for planning and building products. Meet the system for modern software development, streamline issues, projects, and product road maps, and start building.
Speaker 2:The empty slop.
Speaker 1:Geiger Capital says, I've seen enough reacting to Sohr two. I I am raising my probability that the entire AI bubble is going to produce nothing but Facebook slop and TV commercials for to 20%. That's crazy because of coding and knowledge retrieval. I I don't know that produced nothing but is kind of crazy because, like, people are gonna be doing deep research.
Speaker 2:Dropic comes out of the last week and a half Yeah. Looking
Speaker 1:The the race is on. They apparently, Anthropic had an an image model, they decided not to ship it because of, like, you know, concerns. It was also weird. Someone in the chat yesterday was asking about, oh, why do we press Anthropic on hunger strike person? I still need to dig into that story because I don't understand how they picked Anthropic.
Speaker 2:Why they
Speaker 1:started? It's like, of all the labs, Anthropic seems like definitely like the
Speaker 2:most Just say you haven't studied the lab.
Speaker 1:Am I crazy? I got to interview this person because I got to know, like, how'd you pick that one when we have Annie over here and Sora over there and Vibes over there and VO3? Like, the the the moving fast, you know, memes are not the strongest at Anthropic. They're, like, very carefully, like, how how we write better code? How do we write better code?
Speaker 1:I don't know. What what what do you think? Do think it's reasonable to go protest outside of Anthropic?
Speaker 4:No. It kind of doesn't make any sense. But maybe maybe the the reasoning is, like, maybe they they think Anthropic is the most AGI pilled company, at which point then you should be protesting them. Right? If, like, other companies are going into consumer and doing AI video, like, it's like, oh, they're probably Do
Speaker 1:you mean most AGI pilled or most AGI likely? Like like, if there's a AGI breakthrough, it will come from Anthropic because Yeah.
Speaker 4:I think both.
Speaker 9:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That yeah.
Speaker 4:That makes It doesn't yeah. It is very strange considering, like, how, like
Speaker 1:It does seem like they're the least reckless of all the labs.
Speaker 4:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know. They they have that book settlement, so, you know, RIP to the authors. But they got paid, so good news for the for the authors. Sign in with chat. This is an interesting underrated feature that OpenAI kind of shipped.
Speaker 1:So when you download the Sora app, you're prompted to log in with ChatGPT. You get portable identity for all of AI. It doesn't feel like they bootstrapped the Sora feed. There isn't enough content right now. But in theory, there is a world where if we were a couple months down the road and there was a lot of content in there, the Pulse feature from ChatGPT, I think, is fantastic.
Speaker 1:I haven't been a DAU yet, but when I went on Pulse, it was pulling really interesting articles about CapEx and AI labs and even some production equipment that we're using here. I liked it. I felt like it was properly fine tuned on me. I didn't feel like my Sora feed was that. It was all the same Altman stuff.
Speaker 1:But you could imagine a future where you've been using ChatGPT for a while. You just find out about Sora in December. You're at Thanksgiving or something in November. And your cousin says, oh, are you using ChatGPT? And then, yeah, I use that every once in a while at work.
Speaker 1:And they're like, well, you should check out this new app. And then when you go and sign in with ChatGPT, the first Sora feed is quickly looking at your ChatGPT history, understanding that you have a dog, understanding that you have a particular type of dog, understanding that you have kids, understanding that you like to travel to France. And so it puts all that together and routes you to a particular corner of the Sora feed and gives you more customized content.
Speaker 2:And you can imagine Sora going pretty hard over Thanksgiving just because it is optimized for entertainment.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Tyler, I'll let you respond, then I have another thing.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I was just going say, I think it's even more natural, instead of just putting you in some corner of the algorithm, that it just actually just writes the prompts for the videos.
Speaker 1:Totally. Yeah. You can already see that that's what it's doing in in in Pulse. It's clearly looking at what I'm searching and then writing new prompts for John's search for AI CapEx, write a new prompt for what he might be interested in, go find new sources, piece all that together, generate an article, even generate an AI image as a header for that article, and you could just generate a video that summarizes that or entertains based on that. It is a further step because it's basically just firing off an, like, an o three Pro or like a GPT five Pro query for me.
Speaker 1:And those are great, and whereas these are clearly still in the uncanny valley, not really delivering value. But you could imagine that I open up my feed. And if I look on my YouTube, like my YouTube Shorts feed is like Dylan Patel clips. And like it is like meat and potatoes. Like, I like the content that gets serviced to me.
Speaker 1:And you could imagine that Sora's generating that stuff. And that would make the positive reception. Like, the more customization, the more personalization there is, people will love that once that happens. And it moves out of this just like it's all demo clips of, like, Sam Altman. Like, people don't there are the people will get sick of that.
Speaker 1:They'll want something special. Anyway, numeralhq.com, sales tax and autopilot. Finally. Minutes per month on sales tax compliance. If you're selling something online, you gotta get in gotta get in
Speaker 2:Let numeral worry about it. Meanwhile, in the real economy
Speaker 1:What you got?
Speaker 2:Things are bleak.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah?
Speaker 2:Things are bleak. ADP revised down September payrolls. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:It's
Speaker 2:now negative 32,000, worse since March 2023. And certainly a barbell out there right now.
Speaker 1:Where where are we?
Speaker 2:We Oh, I just pulled that up randomly.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay. Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You're not lost.
Speaker 1:Really far.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But I just think it it it cannot be overstated how how detached
Speaker 1:Tech is from the
Speaker 2:AI hype cycle is from the real economy.
Speaker 1:It's true. It's true. We will see where it goes. I don't know. What what where should we move to next in the real economy?
Speaker 1:There's there are a lot of different things in the real economy.
Speaker 2:Let's just get out of Sword Artoo land.
Speaker 1:Okay. Sure. Our partner, Adio, was running some ads in London.
Speaker 2:There we go.
Speaker 1:Nicholas Sharp posted some photos, and they're beautiful photos of these billboards. We love billboards. We love Adio. Customer relationship magic, Adio is the AI native CRM that builds, scales, and grows your company to the next level. This is interesting.
Speaker 1:San Francisco got inspired and built the elevated Salesforce Park, a down a downtown a true downtown jewel. This was apparently
Speaker 2:Is that inspired
Speaker 1:by the the the the line. Wait. No. What's that one called in in Manhattan? I forget what it's called.
Speaker 2:See, my immediate reaction is, is this real? Because it looks incredibly beautiful.
Speaker 1:It is real.
Speaker 2:It is real.
Speaker 1:This is Salesforce Park. This is Benioff going off. Credit where credit
Speaker 2:Wow. Is Yeah. Benioff cooked.
Speaker 3:He
Speaker 2:did. This is amazing. We we've been this is not what this looks like the know the the the this is what the future would look. You know that?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Have you have you been to the High Line in in New York? Yes. The High Line's interesting.
Speaker 1:It's over a mile long, elevated park. Former rail train went on it, they decided to it was a former New York Central Railroad on the West Side. Brought in some people, built it and now it's just a place where people walk around. A lot of fun. Some sort of nonprofit.
Speaker 1:In 1999, Friends of the High Line advocated for preservation and reuse of a public space or an elevated park or greenway. Celebrity New Yorkers joined in on fundraising and support for the concept. Repurposing the railway into an urban park began in 2006 and opened in phases from 2009 to 2011 to 2014. The Spur, an extension of the High Line that originally connected with the Morgan General Male facility at Tenth Avenue And Thirtieth Street opened in 2019. The Moynihan Connector extending east from the spur opened in 2023, so they're still building stuff out there.
Speaker 2:Finally, white pill on today's show. We can still build beautiful things.
Speaker 1:We can. We can.
Speaker 2:It looks like the World If meme.
Speaker 1:Yes. In other news, Brett Adcock is raise is assembling a capital formation team. What does this mean? My companies have raised 4,000,000,000 in the last five years, and now it's time to reaccelerate. Brett Adcock is the founder of Archer Aviation, correct, and Figure Robotics?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And this team will raise tens of billions to bring sci fi into the present, reporting directly to him. DMs open, no remote candidates in San Jose, California.
Speaker 3:If you wanna go allocate some capital, hell, head over to his Raise capital.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you're gonna be allocating.
Speaker 1:Lomes, should we go back to Sora?
Speaker 2:No. We gotta get out of Sora.
Speaker 1:You want you're you're done with it.
Speaker 2:I'm sick of it.
Speaker 1:I'm You're done with it. Let's get into Which one?
Speaker 2:So Dylan Patel went on Fantastic episode. Best, like the best. Highly recommend it. Really breaks down. OpenAI, Anthropic, AMD, XAI, Oracle, Meta, and Google.
Speaker 2:On OpenAI, Dylan said, super awesome. On Anthropic, he said, I'm actually more optimistic on Anthropic than I am OpenAI. The revenue is accelerating way faster because of what they're focused on. It's more relevant to that 2,000,000,000,000 software market versus OpenAI's split between software, AI for science, AI for consumer. They're also doing hardware Yep.
Speaker 2:Etcetera, etcetera. Anthropic is definitely executing on the software side better. AMD, I love them, but they're pretty mid.
Speaker 1:Tell them
Speaker 2:what the best. XAI, they're in real danger of not being able to raise capital. Again, xAI had to come out and say, we're we're we have plenty of demand.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:If you have to say that to to a journalist that's digging, probably, probably something to the story. Of course, everyone's going to give Elon capital, but the scale of capital required for him to keep up, he can get the next bet. XAI can get to the next stage of compute. They won't have more compute than OpenAI. They don't have more compute than any individual company, Google, Meta, etcetera.
Speaker 2:But they will have the biggest individual data center. They'll have a very focused team. And what they do with that, they have to do something really big. Otherwise, they will fall behind in the race. And Elon will not let that happen.
Speaker 2:He can subsidize and fund this round. But as rich as he is, he can't go to a three gigawatt data center unless he gets capital, which he can't do unless he gets revenue and fundraising. Again Yeah. You know, xAI has government contracts.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:They have Romantic companions. They have romantic companions. They have are
Speaker 1:people that on x. Like Yeah. Grock is this real? That whole thing. I do wonder it's funny to reflect on the mood around the romantic companion launch, Ani and Valentine.
Speaker 1:People were definitely like, this is going to this is bad, but it'll be popular, which is the same that we heard about Vibes, and it's the same that we're hearing about Sora, right? And I wonder, like, is it popular? Like we were kind of debating, and one of the ideas that was kicking around was like, Okay, maybe this is weird. Maybe it's Black Mirror. Maybe it's dystopian.
Speaker 1:Maybe it should be avoided as a recommendation if you want to live a good life. But it's possible that this generates $1,000,000,000 in free cash flow because people love talking to their AI girlfriends, and then they wind up buying their AI girlfriends virtual items that are 100% margin, like the CS:GO skin that I purchased for myself, which I still enjoy. And you can imagine a situation where you fall in love with your AI companion, and you're spending not just $200 a month for Grok four heavy pro, but you're spending, yeah, millions. And and you get the whales that you
Speaker 2:see on Which sounds crazy when people have actually done it.
Speaker 1:OnlyFans, and it happens on mobile games. Right? There are whales that spend a ton of money because they have a ton of money, and they love the product. Has that happened? Like, I I don't know.
Speaker 1:I haven't heard any stories about Ani, like, whales or Ani companions or Yeah. Or Ani even getting a lot of traction. Like, we it's not like we've seen
Speaker 2:We've seen Opt on the charts in Japan. Yeah. But
Speaker 1:how are we tracking? And then also, it's rolled into so many other products. It's like there isn't a standalone metric that we can be tracking because it's not a public company, and it's not a pure play. And so it's not like we can be tracking DAUs and time on-site and an average ARPU month by month or quarter by quarter at this point. But it'll be interesting.
Speaker 1:I I I don't know. But I mean, it does feel like if if they can get that flywheel going, that's something that could, that could be a catalyst for marshalling marshalling the capital, regardless of what you think about it morally. If there's, if there's demand for those for that inference to chat with Ani and Valentine, and that's something that OpenAI and Google and Meta are staying away from, well, that's an opportunity. So we'll see where it Oracle is going to make so much money if you believe OpenAI is successful. Meta, Dylan Patel thinks Meta's got the cards to potentially own it all, the only company in the world that has the full stack from good hardware.
Speaker 1:That's what Meta just showed with their glasses with the screen, plus good models, plus the capacity to serve them, plus the knowledge and know how around recommendation systems to know what content to put in front of the user. It's all four of these that you need, plus the capital. I think Meta is close to being the only company that can do that. Google. Dylan Patel was pretty bearish on Google two years ago, but he's super bullish Google.
Speaker 1:Now they're waking up on every front. They're taking the TPUs. They're selling them externally. They're taking their models, and they're actually competitive on them, and they're training much better and better. They're being aggressive on infrastructure investments.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of dysfunction throughout the company, but they do have the hardware business that they can pivot into this. They do have Android, YouTube and all these IPs. They have Search that can come together when we turn to the next interface of consumer. But they also can dominate the professional sense, too. And I think Google's well positioned to capture both markets or a meaningful share of both.
Speaker 1:Well Yeah.
Speaker 2:Interesting they didn't cover Microsoft in here.
Speaker 1:No. And they also didn't cover fin.ai, the number one AI agent Should have. Customer service, number one in performance benchmarks, number one in competitive bake offs, number one ranking on g two. But we'll have to get Dylan Patel's take on that. In other news, we mentioned earlier, but this the the the team over at Cognition rebuilt Devon for Claude Sonnet 4.5.
Speaker 1:I don't think we'll have full time to dig into this whole write up, but it's interesting that they they dropped in SONNET 4.5 into the old Devon, and they did see a higher score, but it took more time. And so they rewrote it and they got both an even higher score with even more time saved, which is obviously valuable. They said the new version is twice as fast and 12% better on our junior developer evals, and it's now available in agent preview. And they're keeping the old Devon alive. It remains available.
Speaker 2:Alex, we didn't get into it a ton, but Alex in Anthropic yesterday was was very excited about four or five's potential on the agent front. Yeah. Nick Carter has a good little deep dive. I was going to call it a mid dive, not
Speaker 1:It's pretty deep.
Speaker 2:Do you want to hop into this?
Speaker 1:We got a guest join in six minutes. But we can try and rip through this
Speaker 2:if you want. We can come we can come back to it.
Speaker 1:I'd like to have you come to the show to talk
Speaker 2:about this.
Speaker 1:But we look. Let's go through it. It's an interesting question.
Speaker 2:Few points here. Please. He says the stablecoin duopoly is ending. He's obviously referencing USDC and USDT. Circle Circle equity is currently worth 30,000,000,000.
Speaker 2:Tethr's TopCo is reportedly raising capital at 500,000,000,000, which would Let's go.
Speaker 3:Become if they can get that done before OpenAI,
Speaker 2:that would be the most valuable private company in the world.
Speaker 1:Isn't that more than SpaceX?
Speaker 2:More than SpaceX. Wow. More than OpenAI. Why do bank robbers rob banks?
Speaker 1:That's where the money is.
Speaker 2:Tender at 500. Yeah. But yeah, again, this is I think the most profitable per company in the world on a per employee basis.
Speaker 1:Extremely
Speaker 2:profitable. Together, the two stablecoins boast 245,000,000,000 in supply or about 85% of the stablecoin market.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Since inception, only Tether and Circle have maintained meaningful market share. No one else has even come close. DAI peaked at 10,000,000,000 in early twenty twenty two. Terror's doom UST did surge to 18,000,000,000 in 2022, but accounted for only 10% of the market. And that was only briefly.
Speaker 2:The most ambitious attempt to dethrone Tether and Circle was Binance's BUSD, which peaked at 23,000,000,000. So he goes into some of the new market dynamics. One, we had Zach on from Bridge yesterday talking about how anybody can now sort of quickly originate stablecoins. So expect to see a lot more banks do this. They're not gonna just give up the yield that they currently get from dollars.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I'm interested to see what the legacy banks do, credit unions, etcetera, how quickly they'll move here because they're certainly all paying attention.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I still don't fully understand the full chain of value accrual because if you need cross chain interactions, there could be attacks there as you're trying to get from one stablecoin to another. Why is this market not monopolistic? Why hasn't why hasn't one just run away with it in the way that Bitcoin has with that digital gold narrative? Why are we seeing a proliferation of stablecoins?
Speaker 1:It is it is an interesting topic to dig into. But anything else you want to cover from the
Speaker 2:No. Do we have our first guess yet? Not quite.
Speaker 1:Couple minutes. How'd you sleep last night? I I got a new phone. I wasn't logged into my Eight Sleep app. I should have been because I had a 98.
Speaker 1:98, baby.
Speaker 2:70 And last nine. Last night, I got eighty hours.
Speaker 1:So I still beat you. Play my song, Jordy Hale.
Speaker 2:There you go. Let's go. Thanks. Buco Capital shares Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Meta, and Oracle are now spending 60% of their operating cash flow on CapEx.
Speaker 1:It's time to build, baby.
Speaker 2:It's I expect it to go higher. You think they'll where do you think they'll get to?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Why not spend a 100% of it? Why not spend a 100% of it and then go then go raise debt and then spend more? Like, I don't know. What's the efficient frontier?
Speaker 1:If if the CapEx is valuable, if it returns if it returns profits, go go higher. Liz says it's gonna go even higher.
Speaker 2:We've talked about it. We've talked about it. But, you know, if you have the leaders of these companies that don't care about ROI Yeah. That could take us into quite dangerous territory.
Speaker 3:Potentially. Yeah. What do think, Tyler?
Speaker 4:I just have some other news. Yeah. What is this? Thinking Machines has released a product. I mean, not it's not really a product.
Speaker 4:It's an it's an API.
Speaker 1:It's an AI video app. And it's adult themed. They took the reins off. Thinking Machines, what what do you think the the machines are thinking about? They're thinking about doing it.
Speaker 1:But
Speaker 4:it's basically What
Speaker 1:is it?
Speaker 4:It's an API. Okay. They you can basically do, like, training.
Speaker 1:So
Speaker 4:it's like they they have a couple smart supported models. I think it's just Quen and Lama, a bunch of
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:Of those series. But they basically it's just like we handle the infrastructure. You just give us the data, then we'll you can fine tune easily.
Speaker 1:Is this I remember the narrative around thinking machines being like, it's RL for business. So if I want the the the the the fine tuned version of the most cutting edge open source LLM thinking machines will allow me the infrastructure to to do that, to fine tune, to reinforcement learn on top of my data.
Speaker 4:I don't know if it's oh, I I think it actually is RL. Mhmm. I I need to read through the the whole announcement. It's they haven't released a ton of it. But, yeah, pretty interesting.
Speaker 4:I mean, it seems like kind of very competitive with I think OpenAI offers the same thing
Speaker 1:They do.
Speaker 4:Of fine tuning of of the big models.
Speaker 1:But maybe there's value in focusing and being known for that specifically and then having a really clear divide. Mean, OpenAI with that product, obviously, they if you're on the enterprise plan, they won't train on your data, but there's still like this you're dealing with a showgolf with multiple product lines. You go to Miura, maybe you get a more focused team that's really not AGI pelt at all, I guess, right? Does this update your timelines, your PDOM?
Speaker 4:I don't think so. I mean, this this is kind of expected of of what they were like they kind of said that they were going to do, RL for Business. They're doing fine tunes.
Speaker 1:This was our riff. What did Mira see? Everyone asked what did Ilya see before he left. But what did Mira see? Maybe she saw business value creation.
Speaker 1:And that's what I like. Let's hear it. Hear about thinking machines. Love it. Fine tuning.
Speaker 1:It's essential. Who else is going to do it? There's $6,200,000 fundraise for Nozomo y? I should not pronounce that. Arlen.
Speaker 1:We interviewed Arlen. Word Arlen.
Speaker 3:That's
Speaker 1:right. At y c demo day.
Speaker 2:Y c demo day.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Well, congratulations to Arlen. CRV's in, box groups, and local globe.
Speaker 2:Some good names. Hit that gong for Arlen. Congratulations on the progress.
Speaker 1:Congratulations. There's some other cool stuff. Mister Hafner here, Donajar is announcing Dreamer four, an agent that learns to solve complex control tasks entire entirely inside of its scalable world model. This is what this is what Tyler was alluding to with some of the value of world models besides just playing Minecraft, actually teaching just serving as a reinforcement learning environment. And then there's there's a bunch of other stuff in here.
Speaker 1:Intern says, hey, man. Just wanted to reach out and say how much I loved how much you drank at the networking event last night. You're not going to get that on Sora. You've got to go to
Speaker 2:You've to go to that. You're also not going to get that from Grok, apparently. No. It's not.
Speaker 1:Not yet. There's also a wonderful ranking of energy drinks here. Notably missing is Andrew Huberman's Yrumate, Martaina, of course. But Goth says the gold can is elite. If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to convince you.
Speaker 1:Sorry. And that's the caffeine free Diet Coke. I do the caffeinated diet coke. But Interesting. The the I don't even think This post is claiming that
Speaker 3:I'm seeing one of those.
Speaker 1:The gold can diet coke. The caffeine free and sugar free diet coke, it's just forever chemicals apparently, is is the drink of men who are destined to find eras, change history, and who will
Speaker 2:be remembered for more. Forever chemical. Carbonated forever.
Speaker 1:Well, if you're bullish on Coke or bearish on Coke, head over to public.cominvesting for those that take it seriously. They got multi asset investing, industry leading yields, and they're trusted by millions. We have our first guest of the show, Reese Chaudhry from Concept Ventures.
Speaker 2:Welcome to
Speaker 1:the show, Reese. How are
Speaker 2:you, bro?
Speaker 8:Good. It's good. How are you guys? Big fan of show. Thanks thanks for having me on.
Speaker 8:I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Thanks for hopping on the show. Give us the news. Break it down for us. What's happening today in your world?
Speaker 8:So, today or yes. Yesterday, we launched, our latest fund. It's $88,000,000. Yes. You can ring the gong.
Speaker 8:Have
Speaker 2:have a
Speaker 8:bell in our office and many years ago and people people would always ring it as well. So, I thought that's I love I love the analogy. Analogy. So
Speaker 1:Let's go bigger. Yeah. We a taller board. Don't I just from the way you described the bell, I can tell it's not taller than you, and it's gotta be huge. I want a massive
Speaker 2:Well, 88,000,000, you have the management fee fees to have a bell guy that just stands there ready
Speaker 1:to People think two or 20, you get two percent for the fee. You don't get 2% of you get 2% over ten years. 20%. You might you could spend $2,000,000 on a bell tomorrow, and I think you should.
Speaker 8:That's it. That's the first order that's going on Amazon tomorrow.
Speaker 1:So so give us give us the pitch for the fun. Give us the strategy. A bit of a contrarian take. You're hunting for value in Europe.
Speaker 8:Yeah. We we we that's we are hunting for value. So for us to be obviously, we're based in Europe. We're based in London. So, you know, contrarian to many guests you may be having Australia.
Speaker 8:Extremely. Awesome that you've got some European founders on.
Speaker 1:Of course.
Speaker 8:And Carl and Victor, I saw that. Yep. Again, two contrarians there as well. And so we we really focus on that earlier stage of investing, the concept stage or that pre seed stage. There's not many pre seed funds in Europe, and, you know, we've got the largest as of as of yesterday.
Speaker 8:And, you know, we have focused exclusively on investing at in the people themselves. So we go very, very deep in in, you know, everything about people from like their childhood to the how they met their cofounder and, you know, what they spike in and, you know, do they have like are they like a chess champion? And we, you know, we break it down into kind of four kind of archetypes, which most unicorn founders specialize in. So we have no sectors, basically. Mhmm.
Speaker 8:So either you're a first first time founder that maybe worked at big tech, you had a first time founder that you've, you know, been at a unicorn, like, you know, we've got a company that spun out of Synthesia, a company called Anam which is backed by RevPoint, or you're a second time founder or a PhD spin out. And so, like, within the team, we all kind of specialize in one group of people, and that like really gives us an insight in traits having, like, worked with, I don't know, second time founders. Yeah. Are they learning all their lessons before? So we we often take these very contrarian bets in really rogue sectors from high frequency trading to robotics to commodities market places and
Speaker 3:Let's give it up for high frequency trading.
Speaker 2:It's like it's embarrassing. For you. How does having less competition at pre seed obviously, every stage is hypercompetitive now, at least in in The US.
Speaker 1:Basically, pre seed allocator that we know is moving up the stack in The US. At least that's what I can tell. It feels like I'm hearing that from so many American pre seed investors who are like,
Speaker 2:well, people are moving down the stack Fifteen
Speaker 1:years ago, it was super uncompetitive. I was the only one I do. Explain what a pre seed firm was. And now I'm doing series Bs.
Speaker 2:Well, it's also even if you're still doing pre seed, you oftentimes have you you know, a pre seed lead if you really wanna lead a pre seed round, which maybe call it a 500 k check. You often have to make a decision in twenty four hours. Like, you need to move quick. You need to move oftentimes faster than you might be comfortable. And so having a little less competition at that stage, I I don't know, does that change your process at all?
Speaker 2:Do you are you do you have more time to get to know founders? Or are you still feeling, you know, that that urgency?
Speaker 8:Yeah. Look, think in Europe we're traditionally maybe a little bit more conservative than The US. We love when we started Concept everyone was like you're crazy. Literally, you're crazy for doing this because, you know, you really needed a, you know, market or a product or you know? And in Europe, you know, traditionally, we all come from outside.
Speaker 8:We're we're not insiders to VC at all. Like, we haven't come from those top names. We all the team are not are not from that background. And I think that gives us a real edge in kind of, like, evaluating, but also taking that risk. And I think what we see if there's no product or markets typically to go after, the underwriting process is actually a lot quicker because you're literally evaluating people.
Speaker 8:So typically, our process takes like we call it like five hour energy because it's like, you know, five hours of founders time. And, you know, we go through our process and we're looking for very specific traits and things in those individuals. And we when we get that, we we're happy to lead. We lead 90% of our rounds. We don't care what other people do.
Speaker 8:You know, we don't care about FOMO. You know, it's a very kind of set deal. Typically, you're investing a million dollars at kind of the the the start and, you know, we don't need anybody else to kind of make that decision. And I think, you know, generally, Europe needs needs more of that. I mean, you had Matti on the show.
Speaker 8:Yeah. You know, we'll see that was that that was our first investment out of the last five.
Speaker 3:Oh, let's go.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. What a banger.
Speaker 3:That
Speaker 1:Jordy, you got
Speaker 2:a question. Yeah. Just just every if you're getting a fund off the ground, just back one fund.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Just do 10 more of the proceeds
Speaker 2:at least, you know, you know, one time a fund. You'll probably be pretty in a pretty
Speaker 3:good spot. Yeah. Where's your what's
Speaker 2:your LP base look like for the new fund? Are we are we like, you know, what what what's the mix? European?
Speaker 1:Do they lean more Italian supercar owners or British supercar owners?
Speaker 8:No. We're only allowed to talk about golf now given given the last, you know Yes. Obviously, Europe's won something.
Speaker 1:So we've to
Speaker 8:on that. Yeah. But no but no. To answer your question, we've actually got most of the institutions we've onboarded in this fund, think 80% of them are US actually.
Speaker 2:Interesting. Let's go. Keep it in the face.
Speaker 1:Thank you for Thank you for working for our Secret American. Secret American over there doing work for us. Okay. Question for supporting our next question.
Speaker 2:Please, like, I please
Speaker 1:wanna I wanna hear about sourcing. You have, you have three places where you can go to source the next great Pre seed founder. You can go to a Cambridge student union meetup, meet young new grads. You could go to a pub outside of DeepMind after they just failed a training run. You can try and poach someone from there, or you can go to Monaco during f one.
Speaker 1:Which one are you picking and why?
Speaker 8:I've I've taken the DeepMind DeepMind
Speaker 1:The pub?
Speaker 8:Every day of
Speaker 1:my Hang out at the bar. Get the disgruntled DeepMind.
Speaker 3:Oh, the training run just failed. I wanna start
Speaker 1:a company. I gotta get out of this bureaucracy.
Speaker 8:Yeah. I think I think I take take that. And and last time, we I think we invested in three three ex Palantir people. So we love a good forward deployed engineer. Yep.
Speaker 8:And so I think that's something you know, we we we think that talent generally gravitates to places that have amazing cultures, and we spent a lot of time looking in the cultures of those companies, particularly in Europe. And I think you've had this one wave of, you know, the UI pass, the Spotify, you saw you're at the client or IPO, obviously. And that was kind of like one way which has happened and like, you know, gone public. And now you're having this new ways. You've got Carl and Victor on the show.
Speaker 8:You've, you know, you've obviously got Matty, and there's others like, you know, Granola in London. I think these are like people are just going bigger. Right? They're just thinking bigger because they're learning more from these kind of repeat successes. And that's coming from all parts of the ecosystem.
Speaker 8:If you're working in a company, out of a company, you're seeing these success stories. And I think I think there's a lot more to come personally. But having, you know, boots on the ground and that partnership with our American LPs, I find that, you know, typically the American firms eventually get in. Right? Like, every IPO, every exit, you'll see, you know, you win in the you win in the end.
Speaker 2:Talk a day. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I was
Speaker 8:They're not always comfortable making that bet. So I think that's where we can play a role of like kind of making that conviction early and, you know, get going forward.
Speaker 1:Fantastic.
Speaker 2:I'm super bullish on
Speaker 1:Congratulations.
Speaker 2:The fund. If I was an American multistage VC, I would Be all of
Speaker 3:you guys.
Speaker 2:I'd be trying to, yeah, take down a good piece of the fund. And, yeah, I'm super super excited to see companies you back.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for hopping on the show.
Speaker 8:Thanks. Thanks for having us, guys.
Speaker 2:Cheers, Reese. Congrats. Bye.
Speaker 8:Cheers.
Speaker 1:I wanna pull up this post by Sherwood. Sherwood says, may I suggest a different tagline? You can feel the diff. Posting an image of a graphite billboard. Graphite's, of course, a sponsor on this show.
Speaker 1:And the and the the the billboard is, like, not even using all the billboard space. It's so over minus, and then plus is we're so back.
Speaker 2:It's clean, though.
Speaker 1:It got 5,000 likes. And this is the interesting long tail of of less flashy out of home ads that wind up still going viral. That's the benefit. That's why you gotta get on adquick.com. Out of home advertising made easy and measurable.
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Speaker 2:Do we have our next guest already?
Speaker 1:Have our next guest. You can see him right there on the on the big board. There we go. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1:How are you doing, Jim? Good to meet you.
Speaker 10:Hello, John. Hello, Jordy. Doing very well up here. How about yourselves?
Speaker 1:We're doing fantastically today. Bit of crazy day with Sora two taking over the news, So we spent a lot of time talking about that, but what's new in your world?
Speaker 10:Yeah. Well, we raised a series b, which is, of course, the big news in our world over here. How
Speaker 1:much? How much? Founder.
Speaker 10:Yeah. So we raised a bit north of $50,000,000 to build new AI agents for AI factories.
Speaker 2:AI agents for AI factories. Let's go. Let's go. We've been waiting for this. What does that mean?
Speaker 1:Yes. Jensen says AI factory is a token factory. It's just a data center. Or do you mean AI factory as there's robots walking around making iPhone cases or something like that.
Speaker 10:Yeah. No. We we mean it in the Jensen sense. Right? So purpose built mega scale data centers Mhmm.
Speaker 10:That exist to convert electricity into tokens. Right? They're they're they exist to generate intelligence. That's what it means. So concretely, we make AI agents that are capable of autonomously operating and optimizing physical mission critical infrastructure.
Speaker 1:What are the top things that kind of break when you're running a large data center that normally a human has to step into? Normally, it's time consuming. Now they're leveraging an AI agent to maybe just work while they sleep or kick off a problem solution so they can have the agent go and work and solve some of the problem for them. What's the what what what are some examples of, like, problems that you're solving concretely?
Speaker 10:Yeah. Yeah. So you have to pardon me if I get a little bit nerdy. I'm a I'm a mechanical engineer. I train.
Speaker 10:Right?
Speaker 2:So Get nerdier.
Speaker 1:Go to town.
Speaker 10:Yeah. So I think one of the the the important things to realize is that AI factories today look nothing like traditional data centers. Right? Like, when I started in the industry, you know, I joined a a much smaller Google back in 02/2010. Right?
Speaker 10:And our concept of a large data center were these 30 megawatt modular data centers. And at the time, we thought to ourselves, who's ever gonna use 30 megawatts of compute. Right? And now, obviously, the industry has changed a lot. Now we talk about gigawatt scale data centers, right, purpose built for AI workloads, I e, AI factories.
Speaker 10:The most important thing to realize by AI factories is that their orders of magnitude more complex. There's a lot of stuff in there to orchestrate, a lot of pumps, a lot of chillers, a lot of liquid cooling CDUs. Right? And they have very nonlinear interactions with each other. So what our AI agents do is they have a global view of everything that's happening across the AI factory.
Speaker 10:They can absorb tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of sensor trends in real time, and they act like a general on the battlefield. Right? They're issuing AI generated command signals that are sent to the local control system for automatic implementation execution. Right? So it's really what we would call AI enabled supervisory control, right, for these very large AI factories.
Speaker 2:Where do you think the so if you're doing the orchestration and management, where is the physical work going to come from? Is that being met by somebody that's just on call in a data center today? Do you think that robots will eventually do that work? Data centers are great and that they're sort of a flat, controlled environment. It's kind of a a good setup for, you know, not necessarily a humanoid robot, but just a robot on wheels that can go around and and make adjustments.
Speaker 2:But but what's your kind of vision for once your agents decide, you know, what needs to be done within the system? If it can't be done purely with software, how does it get done physically?
Speaker 10:Yeah. Totally. It's a good question. So, you know, to be very clear, the AI agents are not capable of replacing, like, the physical labor that needs to happen. So things like turning wrenches, right, taking the chiller offline, cleaning it, that stuff that, you know, you you need humans for today.
Speaker 10:Right? Maybe eventually we'll see robots, right, taking care of that sort of stuff. But what we do is more of the the software level orchestration of all the of all the equipment, especially the mechanical cooling systems, right, that happen in in these large AI factories. But I think, you know, one of the important things to also rec you know, recognize is that the industry is growing so rapidly right now that there is just a massive, massive, massive shortage of skilled labor, you know, expertise in the industry. Right?
Speaker 10:Jensen talks about how, like, electricians and plumbers are gonna be two of the hottest trades moving forward because of the scale of the iFactory build out. In the industry that I come from, you know, you see a lot of folks with white hair, and you don't see a lot of folks our age in the industry. Right? So there is a massive shortage. A lot of people are retiring.
Speaker 10:They're taking knowledge with them. Our hope is that these AI agents, in addition to providing optimal functionality of these AI factories, can also augment the labor force. Right? We we communicate our AI agents as virtual plan operators. Right?
Speaker 10:They're virtual members of the operation staff. You can't see them or hear them, but just like me, they're permanently working from home, right, and doing a lot of stuff in the background.
Speaker 1:Can you explain to me what the software stack looks like for all the different pieces of a data center? Like, I we we talked to a lot of, folks who are building software for traditional manufacturing. And they talk about Siemens has a control system that has some sort of archaic API, and then they write a wrapper for that API. And then they can create a dashboard, or they might be able to trigger some things on that. Do do does a chiller have an API that can be accessed over Ethernet or something?
Speaker 1:Like, how do all these systems tie together? How open is it? Like, whenever you're building an AI agent, people will comp you to, like, Cursor. But Cursor is a fork of Versus Code, open source software, and then all the code is stored in GitHub, very easy to scrape in and download and work on. I imagine some of these tools are either closed source because that's part of the business strategy of that, you know, industrial company, or they're just so old that they haven't gotten around to actually writing an API.
Speaker 1:So walk me through all that.
Speaker 10:Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a great question. So, you know, frankly, the the data center industry hasn't seen a lot of innovation a really long time. Right?
Speaker 10:Until NVIDIA came out with, you know, the latest generation of chips. And now all of a sudden, right, there's real innovation, you know, real creativity in the data center industry again. Before, it's really just copy and pasting the same old stuff over and over again. Right? A large part of that is the closed ecosystem effect that you were just describing.
Speaker 10:Right? If you look at what your traditional incumbents are doing, like the Siemens or Schneider Electric's, whatever. Right? You know, yes. Right?
Speaker 10:There are protocols that exist like Modbus or, you know, or OPC UA, NQTT, whatever protocols that exist that act as the APIs, right, that enable these large mechanical equipment to coordinate with each other. However, that tends to exist within a walled garden. So each of these major automation vendors, right, like the Schneider Electric's of the world, they make it very difficult for you to integrate. Right? There's no such thing as, you know, an an easy way for third parties to access the data and analytics that are coming off of these mission critical systems.
Speaker 10:So a large part of what we do is integrating with a large variety of these building management systems or these SCADA systems to ingest that data and make intelligent decisions off of it.
Speaker 1:This seems like something that you can't just pick up from a couple Google searches. Like, were you doing before? How did you actually learn that this problem existed? How did you get up to speed on all these different systems?
Speaker 10:Yeah. So in 02/2010, I was a bright eyed and bushy tailed college grad joining Google. And back then, Google was still, like, small enough and young enough that new college grads had outrageous amounts of responsibility. Right? So I was fortunate enough that I actually helped design some of Google's first, you know, large cooling systems that go into their data centers.
Speaker 11:Wow.
Speaker 10:Then in 02/2013, I became the person responsible for Google's energy efficiency programs for its data centers. The primary metric is POE or power usage effectiveness. Yeah. Back even back then, like, Google was already consuming billions of dollars a year in electricity, so it is in our incentive to optimize the energy costs. Right?
Speaker 10:And that's grown by orders of magnitude since. Then in 02/2016, something called AlphaGo happened. If you remember, that's kinda what made dMind famous. My cofounder, Veda, was one of the AlphaGo engineers.
Speaker 12:Oh, wow.
Speaker 10:I saw what happened. I thought to myself, if we can create AI agents that beat the smartest, most intelligent humans at complex games like Go, then surely we can teach these same AI agents to play other games like let's reduce the energy consumption of Google's data centers.
Speaker 1:Power management.
Speaker 10:So, yeah, so I reached out to a guy named Mustafa Soleiman, who was the cofounder of DeepMind. This is guy.
Speaker 3:Let's go. This is the guy.
Speaker 1:Cat is loving you, by the way.
Speaker 3:Yeah. They said this is crap.
Speaker 1:This guy rips. Everybody loves you. Thank you for joining the stream. Everyone's going crazy.
Speaker 2:Your entire life was leading up to the
Speaker 1:phone. Overnight success.
Speaker 10:So it was I mean, it was just a cold email. I was totally not expecting anything of it. But I pitched this idea of, like, what if we take DeepMind's reinforcement learning agents and use them to control big ass infrastructure like Google's data centers? So we did it. It worked.
Speaker 10:It worked surprisingly well. I actually ended up joining DeepMind for three years. I I led a business vertical called DeepMind Energy. Right? We applied reinforcement learning for all sorts of things like commercial building, HPC.
Speaker 10:Then my cofounders and I realized reinforcement learning is actually really good at industrial scale control and optimization. Mhmm. So we started Phaedra.
Speaker 1:Well, congratulations. What a run. Very excited for you. And glad to see you have nice Series B to go
Speaker 2:to I got a feeling you'll be back on the show for
Speaker 1:Very soon.
Speaker 2:In not too long. So congrats on all the progress.
Speaker 9:I hope Great
Speaker 2:to meet you.
Speaker 1:Have a great rest
Speaker 10:of your very much. Have an awesome day, you guys.
Speaker 1:We'll talk to you Well, if you wanna optimize your wrist, head over to getbezel.com. Your bezel concierge is available now to source you any watch on the planet. Seriously, any watch. We have our next guest from Moon Lake in the TBPN UltraDome coming in from the Restream waiting room.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1:How are you doing? Welcome to the stream.
Speaker 5:What's up? Thanks for being
Speaker 1:Not too much. Welcome. I we we we gotta be fast about this because I want reactions to all the stuff that's happening in the timeline. But, kick us off with an introduction on yourself and the company.
Speaker 5:Yeah. I'm Fan Insai. I tend to go by Sun. I'm the founder and CEO of Moonlink AI. We're really spun out of Stanford AI Lab.
Speaker 5:A couple, around six months ago, we started this company really to build AI that can generate real time interactive content Mhmm. Think simulations and games.
Speaker 1:Yep. So, yeah, I mean, what are your reactions to Sword two, Vibes? There's all these different paths that are people are testing. Is it a tool? Then there's also this interesting take about maybe we won't even be consuming it's all reinforcement learning data for robotics.
Speaker 1:Like, how are you viewing the market play out just in AI generated content, video, virtual worlds, all of that?
Speaker 5:Yeah. I think it's very apparent that there's a lot of people going through this space, and it's it's really just because the the potential is unbounded. Right? Being able to model the world, let alone any other virtual reality, is going to be the biggest the next biggest wave in AI, no doubt. Now the what we're doing is actually very different.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I was gonna ask video generation. Yeah. Video video a lot of people playing an image and video. We don't we haven't gotten a lot of pitches around creating sort of these interactive media, something more like, you could imagine a mobile game built on Moonlight.
Speaker 2:Am I am I going in the right direction? Or
Speaker 5:Totally. Yeah. You can imagine games being built, simulations. And, really, the main difference when it comes to simulations and games compared to videos or images is the interactivity. Right?
Speaker 5:User outcomes change the trajectory of the world or the game or the environment that you're acting in, And that's what really differentiates us from videos or image generation companies. How
Speaker 1:think about worlds. How do you think about tool use with ChatGPT, just the knowledge retrieval app? We went from g p t 3.5. It was Okay. GPT four was great.
Speaker 1:Then we added tool use. There was a moment when it was like, just keep scaling it up, and it'll learn the answer to every math equation. And then the engineers at OpenAI just realized, like, wait, let's just teach a Python, and it'll just do the math in Python. And then you'll get the right answer. And you don't need to memorize everything into the weights of the actual underlying model.
Speaker 1:And when I see these virtual worlds, these generated worlds, I feel like we are in the GPT three moment, and we haven't we haven't yet given them a database to store your inventory or given them the ability to even a notepad to write down what happened in act one of the game. How do you think tool use comes into these generative worlds, and and and will it track with what's happened in the ChatGPT app?
Speaker 5:I think tool use is exactly the right paradigm Mhmm. That we should go about thinking about creating virtual worlds. You know, computer graphics has been around for decades, if not, like, hundreds of years. Right? And we have the tools that enable us to create the highest fidelity virtual worlds already.
Speaker 5:Right? Look at all the movies. Look at GTA.
Speaker 9:Yeah.
Speaker 5:Right? It's just that these things are hugely expensive and manual to create today. Like, GTA costs $2,000,000,000 to develop develop. Right? So, really, what we believe is that we should use reasoning models to reason about the representation, the tools to use, the models to use, and consolidate all these things into a platform that allows anybody to be able to vibe code their interact worlds.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Right? These are the things that are historically just barred by just complicated tools and and domain expertise, but it doesn't have to be that way.
Speaker 1:Do do you
Speaker 2:think Do think how how do you feel the legacy game studios have been reacting to the opportunity in generative AI so far?
Speaker 1:Have they been?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like, have they been? I I you know, I don't follow gaming super closely. But for example, like the the e I EA take private, you could imagine they're they're they start
Speaker 1:Huge opportunity for sure.
Speaker 2:They they have a lot of IP. They could Yeah. If they're private, they could have the potential to take a longer term view on AI and try to reinvent themselves, but I'm curious how you view it.
Speaker 5:Yeah. No. They're all of the studios that we talked to are stoked about it. Mhmm. Right?
Speaker 5:So we're actually talking to a team that owns f f one, and they were talking to us about the possibility of being able to create, like, racing games that ghost races with f one cars in real time.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 5:Right? And I think what's what the way we should be thinking about this is that what we're building at Moon Lake allows things like, so many more things to be built or things that are historically cut or just made impossible
Speaker 1:due to
Speaker 5:the time and the resource that it entails to create these things. Right? And so, really, all the studios and folks that we work with on the gaming side are stoked about what we're building in there. A lot of them are, you know, looking to collaborate with us.
Speaker 1:What are your what's most rate limiting to you right now? Is there enough data out there? Is there enough compute out there? Is it just do you need to, you know, just go and have really smart scientists think and think and think and come up with an entirely new, you know, technical paper and algorithmic innovation? Like, what is on your critical path?
Speaker 5:There are definitely a couple of algorithmic breakthroughs that we are still working on. We have some of the best scientists here to to work on those problems. But, really, even without just, like, significant breakthrough, I'd say the technology today, if you just consolidate them with reasoning models Mhmm. The upside is already unbounded. Right?
Speaker 5:Look at Roblox. It's a $100 a $100,000,000,000 business with really more traditional graphics approach compared to, like, all the generative world model techniques
Speaker 1:Yeah. That that
Speaker 3:I don't know you're
Speaker 1:with this Ben Thompson take, but he he was saying that, like, ChatGPT is so successful that at this point, OpenAI could stop training foundation models. And it could be clawed under the hood, and it would still be a fantastically amazing business because ChatGPT has won the application layer in knowledge retrieval. It's the app on everyone's phone, right? Like, do you see yourself becoming an application layer company, staying in a foundation model layer company, like doing some sort of blend? Like, how do you see your business developing?
Speaker 5:Yeah. We are actually an applicational company, so we are going to build products that allows anybody to be able to create interactive experiences. Yeah. Right? The way we go about thinking about, oh, whether we're product or model company is really that product is first principle.
Speaker 5:Yep. But a lot of the times, given what we're building is at the frontier, we need to do a little bit of research and do some model training in order to power the best product experience.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 5:So the analogy that I like to make is is Cursor. Right? Cursor didn't start off training their own foundation model, but they had their TAP completion model. They had these smaller modules that come together to build to form an amazing product that people are people love. Right?
Speaker 5:And that's what we're doing.
Speaker 1:How crazy is the inference cost right now? It feels like Sam Altman's setting the GPUs on fire with Sora two. Obviously, per token, inference cost is declining by a thousand x every couple of years or something like that. But, for all the demos that I've seen in world generation, they've all been somewhat limited. It it hasn't gone super viral.
Speaker 1:I haven't seen, oh, yeah, there's 100,000,000 DAUs on Genie three. It's like Genie three isn't even available. And so, how how GPU constrained? How crazy is it to actually go and, release one of these things into the wild? Like and and what's the path for, you know, actually bringing down the cost of inference here?
Speaker 5:Yeah. So I would say inference is definitely something that we think a lot about, and the computer is definitely something that we use a lot for. So if you're a GPU vendor, you know, I like to talk.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 5:But I would say our unique approach of using code to represent the world provides persistency, and it consolidates all the tools such that we can use servers, client side compute to calculate next state of the world.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 5:Right? And that actually allows us to not have to spend an insane amount of compute on just generating the next frame of the world. And that's because of our unique approach of combining cogeneration cogeneration models and diffusion models. Right? The way we're building the way we're building this product is using a representation or a hybrid representation Yeah.
Speaker 5:That allows models to choose what representation to use to represent Yeah. This particular problem and this particular environment. And that actually allows us to be very computationally efficient compared to existing role model companies or video generation companies.
Speaker 1:Yeah. There's been a ton of pushback against AI video generation. Like, the reaction to MetaVibes on X at least was very negative. People were pretty amazed by Sora too, the model, but then there's been a lot of negative takes about Sora the app. How do you think this will be received once we have a vibes or general availability, just an app that anyone can download and start using really early?
Speaker 1:Do you think people will be more optimistic about it? Do you think there'll still be this pushback and then you have to get through it somehow? How are you
Speaker 2:thinking about it? My view is the the viscerally negative reaction that I have to a Slop AI video is because of, like, the character inconsistencies and, like, something about it just feels, like, very wrong to look at. Whereas with Moon Lake, I imagine you can create this, like, gen you know, if you generate a a consistent world that's interactive and it's beautiful, something like being in a mid journey
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Prompt, that I think would be it's about the experience the user has when they actually are playing around with it. Yeah. Like today, sore can be entertaining, but still, can have a negative reaction to it. Yeah. Whereas I can see this done correctly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. How how do you think people will react to when this technology broadly, probably from you, hopefully, becomes general availability to the point where every yes. I like it. Bet on yourself. The to the point where it's just an app, anyone can download it, and, like, we're seeing millions of people onboard, what do you think the reaction will be?
Speaker 5:Oh, I think people will love it. Right? Because what we're doing is not like we're generating the content that people consume. We're just putting great tools into people's hands
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 5:And allowing them create and craft the experience and worlds that they desire. Right? And we we're just making it 10x easier, 10x faster, 10x more accessible.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Take us through the round, and I also wanna hear about the uses. But give us the numbers. What'd you raise?
Speaker 2:Also, is this your first company?
Speaker 5:It is.
Speaker 2:Nice. $28,000,000 seed round. You're in the big leagues. Straight to the big leagues.
Speaker 5:10 plus Unicorn founders and angels, and some of the most influential AI researchers too. That's great. Super grateful for their support.
Speaker 2:I can't wait to see what people build on top of Moon Lake and play around with it. And I'm sure we'll see you back on here soon. Thank you so much for joining, and and congrats
Speaker 1:on Congratulations.
Speaker 5:Thank you for having
Speaker 2:me. Cheers.
Speaker 1:Cheers. We'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 2:Up next Wander. We have
Speaker 1:Find your happy place. Wander. The Wander and inspiring views. Hotel greater than any of dream events, top tier cleaning, and twenty four seven concierge service. It's a vacation home, but better.
Speaker 1:You know, I I I day, you're gonna snap when I cut you off. I still think it's funny. I think some are getting sick of with the with the ad transitions, but we're having fun out here.
Speaker 2:And good if we speak some out
Speaker 1:of some in the chat. People, they said the the the circle table is growing on them, and the horse in the background is growing on them.
Speaker 2:There we go.
Speaker 1:They say Can
Speaker 2:get a can we get a shot of the horse, please? Our beautiful horse.
Speaker 1:Scam. Masked horse. Crossing it.
Speaker 2:This this you really have to I really have to stand next to the horse to get the scale.
Speaker 1:Well, we have Carl Pei from Nothing in the Restream waiting room. We'll bring him into the TBPN Ultra Dome
Speaker 2:Let's do it.
Speaker 1:And get the update on Carl, how are you doing? Wow.
Speaker 2:Long time no see. View.
Speaker 1:Looks fantastic.
Speaker 3:Long time
Speaker 7:no see. It's good to be back.
Speaker 3:It's great to
Speaker 2:have you.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the show. Give us the update. Give us the news. What's the latest in your world?
Speaker 7:Yeah. There's a lot happening over here. Last month, we just announced a $200,000,000 series c raise.
Speaker 1:Let's go.
Speaker 3:We're very excited about that.
Speaker 1:Got Henry on the drums.
Speaker 7:Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Congratulations. What's what was the biggest catalyst for that? Is that just just growth, adoption, churn? Is this the AI narrative? Like, what what was the big catalyst?
Speaker 7:Yeah. I think it's just growth. Like, time I was on the show, I told you guys that we're approaching a billion dollars in revenue just this year. Wow. In the last couple of years, we've been really focused on building the foundations because we all know, you know, making hardware is pretty pretty tough.
Speaker 7:There's so many things you gotta get right. So we created this, like, smartphones. It's one of the most difficult products to to make in in hardware. And we're seeing a lot of traction in the market. So I think this fundraise, it's more about all the traction we have in terms of growth, but also with an eye to where we're going in the future.
Speaker 7:Because I think in the next couple of years, we're going to see an explosion of new hardware and software products based on all the advancements we're seeing in AI. And I think we're just pretty well positioned to this opportunity because on one hand, we're not too small. Like, if you're too small, it's hard to ship, like, really high quality products. We are a consumer business, so people actually like, real people spend real money on our products. And we're also not too big.
Speaker 7:Right? If you're too big, it's kind of you're already super profitable. It's a public company, and it's hard to really latch on to these, you know, opportunities. So think we're in a sweet spot where we can still move fast and be super creative, but also have the infrastructure that we built from engineering perspective, supply chain perspective, and also go to market perspective.
Speaker 2:How quickly are you and the team shipping features and functionality that you just wanna try yourself that's maybe not ready for users? I mean, I I can't imagine. There's so many people building an AI that wish that they had unlimited access to their, like, hardware and could do whatever they wanted. Right? Let's try a new model in there.
Speaker 2:Let's try this open source model. Let's try this new transcription.
Speaker 1:Yeah. He he demoed that exact that I was begging for.
Speaker 2:And and so I just feel like you guys are yeah. Have that incredible advantage of owning the full stack.
Speaker 7:Yeah. We're definitely cooking up a lot of products right now. And I think, you know, having built a team that can make phones, making other form factors is a lot easier. So we're gonna be shipping our first AI devices beginning starting next year.
Speaker 1:Let's go.
Speaker 7:But that doesn't really
Speaker 2:What can you give us give us stuff then? Form fast.
Speaker 3:Is it
Speaker 1:larger than a breadbox? Is it bigger than a phone? Is it smaller than a phone?
Speaker 7:Well, like, you know, we're in a phase for the entire tech industry where we're looking for a product market fit for the Totally. Next form We don't think anybody's gonna get it right on the first shot. So we're really gearing ourselves up to iterate quickly, take feedback quickly, and ship stuff with great taste. So I think that's the kind of winning strategy if you don't have, like, products with pre existing product market fit to build towards.
Speaker 1:Were at Medecon Acton, and they we heard I heard an interesting take from their head of hardware devices. He was saying that he's a big fan of technology that mimics things that we've been wearing for, like, centuries. So he wants to do glasses, a necklace, a chain, a wristband, a watch, a hat, you know, but not try and create something that no one's ever interacted with before. The exception's obviously the phone. We weren't really I guess we were carrying around notebooks before the iPad or something.
Speaker 1:Do you ascribe to that belief that it's easier to bootstrap a new hardware device off of replacing a ring or replacing a hat or something like that? Do you like that framework?
Speaker 7:I do because the product market fit risk and the kind of user education risks drop significantly.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 7:But I think the real catalyst to these new devices getting adoption is actually consumers finding value in them. And the reason why I believe they will find value in them is over the next couple of years, as people find that these new devices with these new sensors can capture more context on them, then the product will become more personalized and more capable for each individual.
Speaker 1:Is that just cameras and audio? I was laughing to myself about, Smell O Vision a prerequisite to AGI? And I don't know if there's any progress I on don't getting think smell is so. But
Speaker 7:It's probably not on the road map for next year.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well, good luck. Hopefully, you have some. We have one guy in r and d. He's enthusiastic about that he's not
Speaker 2:entirely against smell of it.
Speaker 7:Okay. Other thing I wanted to mention was our announcement yesterday. We announced something called Essential Apps. And basically, it's a platform where every person, every creative person can just use natural language to type what kind of apps they want on their phone. Then And they click deploy and it shows up on their phone, on their nothing phone.
Speaker 7:Wow. Know,
Speaker 3:kind of thing that's
Speaker 2:that how many people that are building vibe coding products wish that they had even the ability to do something like that without having to make it work within Apple's ecosystem. It's just it's pretty you guys have such an advantage in terms of experimentation.
Speaker 7:Yeah. That's the fun part about owning the full stack. Today, the we just launched yesterday, just launched the Alpha, so the capabilities are still quite limited. But we're already seeing, just after twenty four hours, almost 10,000 people sign up for the wait list. And it's not just like any wait list because you have to pitch your app idea for us to accept you into the wait list.
Speaker 7:So I'm super excited to see what people build and deploy.
Speaker 1:If you were to build a humanoid robot, would you go with clear plastic so you could see the innards? And do you think that would be more dystopian or actually more, more like, you'd be humans would be willing to embrace it because it's not pretending to be a human. I know exactly what it is. And I think it would get us away from, like, the uncanny valley of a humanoid robot that's trying to look like a human and has some sort of skin mask on and it looks kind of creepy versus, like, if you're just seeing the the the guts, that's maybe better. What what do you think?
Speaker 7:I think it needs to be even friendlier looking because all this new technology is very exciting for us in the tech industry, but out in the real world, a lot of people are super scared of what's gonna come. So, it has to be this army has to look friendly. There has to be a warm feeling interacting with that technology. So she'll probably look more like a toy or something.
Speaker 2:Did we see what DoorDash did this week with Dot? It's a it's such a cute little robot. They absolutely it.
Speaker 7:Think that's the way to go.
Speaker 3:Love it.
Speaker 1:More friendly robots, more friendly creative hardware devices. Very excited for everything you're doing. Thank you so much for stopping by the TVP.
Speaker 2:Always great to get the update.
Speaker 1:Congratulations on the progress. Cheers. We'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 9:Have a good day.
Speaker 1:Up next, we have Shazan from Lava coming into the studio with some exciting news. He's in the Restream waiting room. We will bring him into the TB Pin Ultradome right now. Play some sound cues. How you doing?
Speaker 1:Good to see you. It's been too long. Great to catch up.
Speaker 11:Hey, Bob. Good to
Speaker 2:see you.
Speaker 1:Give us the latest news. I gotta warm this mallet up. You got for us?
Speaker 11:Camera's always pretty horrible when I'm on TBPN for some reason.
Speaker 2:Yeah. What's, yeah.
Speaker 3:We'll we'll we'll get we'll get Ben and the production crew to give
Speaker 2:you the guide to
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Your first TVPN. It's especially rough Carl Pei.
Speaker 1:Maybe you had a pretty cinematic setup. Wired in, so you're in you're in nineteen eighties Melbourne.
Speaker 2:But you're too locked in.
Speaker 3:You're locked in.
Speaker 2:You know? It's okay.
Speaker 1:There's nothing wrong with a laptop call in. We love it.
Speaker 11:Yeah. I'll have to get something better next time. So today, we announced the race, but even more importantly, we announced the first way for people to earn yield on their USD backed by Bitcoin. So, basically, historically in crypto, you've been able to earn yield on your cash, your stable coins, but you've had to engage if you really wanted to do it, you have to engage in all these complex crypto financial engineering schemes, you know, Terra Luna, which was a big blow up that happened a couple years ago, or you have to lend your money on these platforms where the collateral is a basket of altcoins that, you know, could get. They're not as liquid.
Speaker 11:They're very volatile. Lava is the first way for you to earn yield on your cash backed only by Bitcoin. So the way it works is you can deposit USD from fiat from stablecoins to Lava, and you earn yield by Lava then making Bitcoin backed loans on the other side of that. And unlike banks basically, this is what banks do with your money. Right?
Speaker 11:You give them cash to make loans. Lava's loans are all over collateralized by Bitcoin. Bitcoin's the most liquid asset in the world. It trades twenty four seven. It's very safe.
Speaker 11:All loans can be instantly liquidated in the case of default so that you as a lender are always protected and safe. Banks basically take 99.7% of the returns they get for themselves. Mhmm. Lava just gives that back to you. So that's why our yield is so high.
Speaker 11:It's double the next best savings account that you can get right now. And the nice thing about Lava is that it's available all around the world. So even if you're someone in Brazil, for example, you can use Lava, get cash, and earn seven and a half percent yield on it. Obviously, Lava that has a lot of products are Bitcoiners, but this is mostly for people on the other side who have dollars and are not all exposed to Bitcoin, but want to earn a safe and high return on their dollars.
Speaker 2:What's what's pushback? Have you gotten any pushback from from users yet? I think when people see yield that's higher than the Fed's funds rate, they're starting to get a little wary. Are the
Speaker 1:Intuitively, I see 7.5%, I think 7.5% risk. I think 7.5% gain, but also 7.5% risk. I feel like risk and return should be directly correlated in a functioning system. But how do you think about it?
Speaker 11:Yeah. I mean, that's why I'm here. There's a lot of education that we And need to there will be a lot of trust that we'll need to build with users over time. Right? So I I don't think that exactly just because it's seven and a half percent, that means it's a lot more risk than the Fed funds.
Speaker 11:Right? I think it also shows that on the other side, the Bitcoiners are willing to pay a higher yield for borrowing against the Bitcoin in the market. Sure. So we're efficient right now. Yeah.
Speaker 11:You know, the yields might compress over time as well the yields, you know, might here's some things I can talk about the safety. Right? Like, one, the loan book has never had any losses. Mhmm. When you lend your when you deposit your money out of cash, there's some level of FDIC insurance.
Speaker 11:But if you get past that, then, you know, you're also just taking on the risk with the bank. Right? Mhmm. Bank is making under collateralized loans. With Lava, you're making fully over collateralized loans, double collateralized.
Speaker 11:And because Bitcoin is so liquid, as a lender, you know that, you know, the Bitcoin can be sold at any time so that your the cash that you're lending, it will never go underwater. So there's a lot of things that we're also going to review release over time that can help people feel way more comfortable with the safety. So on one side, we've had a lot of Bitcoiners that recently saw this product that are not all in on Bitcoin. They totally get it. You know, Bitcoiners have been saying for a long time that the best risk adjusted rate of return you should be able to get on your cash is by lending it against Bitcoin.
Speaker 11:So for a lot of these people, these are early adopter user bases. They've already just been, like you know, we've had a ton of sign ups. They've been coming into this product. They already got it. They already understand the security.
Speaker 11:They understand Bitcoin's liquidity and how, you know, Bitcoin market structure works, how selling Bitcoin works, how liquidation works. So they've been really excited because there are Bitcoiners that understand Bitcoin that might have, you know, 60% of their net worth in Bitcoin, but the other 40% in cash. And it's almost like this, like, barbell strategy, right, where your long term assets are in Bitcoin. It's, the best long term savings asset. But then with Lava, now you have this short term, you know, liquid way to deposit and earn yield on cash, and you can always instantly withdraw as well.
Speaker 11:I think
Speaker 3:it's Is your really
Speaker 1:business yeah. Is your business helped by a lack of volatility in Bitcoin, or are you hurt if Bitcoin becomes really volatile? It's been really stable this year. It feels like it's just kind of hanging out around $1.1 or so, I think. And it certainly has felt like a lot less volatile time with Bitcoin specifically.
Speaker 1:Is that good for your business, or does it not really matter? Walk me through the relationship of volatility to your business.
Speaker 11:I mean, our business changes in different maybe I can just explain how our business looks in Yeah. In different worlds of Bitcoin. Right? Like, right now, I think if Bitcoin were to go down in price over the next, let's say, few months, we actually might see a lot of increased borrower demand because when Bitcoin is down, people don't want to sell their Bitcoin because they're like, well, it's kinda down. I I predict that it will appreciate over time.
Speaker 11:Right? So they actually will borrow against their Bitcoin. And when Bitcoin is up, maybe in a couple of years if Bitcoin really gets to where I think, there might be a time where people might actually I mean, I'll never sell my Bitcoin. A lot of our users never wanna sell their Bitcoin, so they'll probably still borrow against their Bitcoin. But there might be some people who might say, let me take some you know, let me let me sell some of my Bitcoin.
Speaker 11:Then some of those people, instead of borrowing against their Bitcoin, they might actually sell their Bitcoin, and then maybe even use that extra cash they have and deposit into this this yield product. Right? So we've kinda built this system where matter how you feel about Bitcoin, Lava is a place for you. You know, if you're if you're more cash heavy, you can use our yield product to earn you on your cash. If you're more Bitcoin heavy, you can use Lava to hold your Bitcoin and borrow against it.
Speaker 11:So that we have, you know, a feature for both views that people have about the world and about Bitcoin.
Speaker 1:K. Anything else, Jordy?
Speaker 2:How's how's how's kind of the growth of the loan book been overall over the last few few months? I I know last time we talked, it sounded like it was pretty insane.
Speaker 11:I mean, yeah, it's been growing exponentially, and I think over the next few months, we this this next month for us is gonna be big. We're making a big loan upgrade as well and and lowering rates. So anyone who borrows against their Bitcoin today will see a substantial decrease in their interest rate this month automatically. So we're about to release a a big announcement. Maybe I'll come on back on TPPN for that as well.
Speaker 1:Love it.
Speaker 11:But it's been great. I think there's been a lot of people who have barred against their Bitcoin to do a lot of things that I didn't expect, you know, buy houses, buy cars. The the home buying use case has been one that I was particularly surprised to see.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Is there more is there a rough way to think about the interest rate and over collateralization requirements? Is there sort of a back of a back of the envelope that you give people who are thinking about onboarding?
Speaker 11:So I tell people to start their loan with 50% LTV. So if they're borrowing a million, put up $2,000,000 of Bitcoin.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Right?
Speaker 11:And with Lava, you will we guarantee you the best rate. So you if you come to Lava, you know, you're getting the best rate across any other platform on the market. So Sure. Profit on that. One thing is if you actually really look at the rates on Lava today and kinda consider, like, capital gains tax to you really have to believe that Bitcoin will just appreciate 5% compounded for it to make more sense for you to borrow against your Bitcoin versus selling your Bitcoin, which I think anyone holding Bitcoin probably believes it's going to appreciate more than 5% or compounded.
Speaker 1:That makes a ton of sense. Well, congratulations on the progress. Thank you so much for stopping by. We'll talk to
Speaker 2:you soon. Cheers, Steve.
Speaker 1:Have a good rest of your day. Up next, we have Victor from Synthesia, another AI video generation company.
Speaker 2:First AI company we've ever spoken to.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It is the first. I've actually seen these ads. The Synthesia is the world's largest AI video platform for the enterprise. And so we'll see how this is all taking shape.
Speaker 2:Welcome to
Speaker 1:the show, Victor. How are you doing? What's going on?
Speaker 3:I'm very good, guys. How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm great. Why don't you kick us off with an introduction on yourself, the business, kind of, give us a lay of the land as it stands now?
Speaker 3:Sure. Yeah. I'm, Victor. I'm, one of the cofounders and and CEO of Synthesia. Started the company in 2017, so it's kind of a a while back before any of this stuff actually worked.
Speaker 3:And we kind of endured three or four.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:We endured three or four years of of of pretty painful just, like, sitting in the proverbial garage trying to make this stuff work. And in 2020, we the first company to launch avatars, the technology, right, which essentially is technology that allows you to create talking head style videos Yep. Like you're kind of watching right now, but instead of recording it to camera with a microphone, etcetera, you simply just type out the script and we generate an AI video of someone Yep. Saying that. Right?
Speaker 3:Back in 2017, everything kinda started with the idea of, like, creating Hollywood films and laptops and going much more down the kind of creative route of, you know, just like you can publish and write a book from your bedroom. You should be able to do the same thing with Hollywood films. Yep. Since since the founding of the company, you know, and and kind of where we are today, we kind of took a fork away from that and essentially went into enterprise knowledge. So what we figured was that
Speaker 2:Let's give it up for enterprise knowledge.
Speaker 1:Thank you for
Speaker 2:the the big Hollywood, the creative they you they tried to pull you in, you said no. I am loyal to Seth. I love it.
Speaker 3:I I grew up dreaming about working cross functionally and making videos for Instagram.
Speaker 2:Let's go. Go. Hit that gong. The whole team's fired up.
Speaker 1:Fired up. Love it. Making corporate videos for employee training. That's why we do this show. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:And it's like I mean, it's just really smart. Right? It's Oh,
Speaker 1:it makes a
Speaker 2:ton sense. AI is clearly good enough to make this form
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:A video and clearly not good enough to one shot feature films or even most often
Speaker 1:Even eight second videos.
Speaker 2:Eight second videos is struggling.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Wait. So sorry. Jordy, do have stuff? You want
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Mean, I wanted to jump in briefly because we spent the first half of today's show talking about Sora, kind of reacting to it. I thought it was a great product for entertainment purposes. Right? The Cameo functionality, everything's very memeable. But something about when you're going in the feed going through the feed, it it's it's kinda hard to look at the videos.
Speaker 2:Like, yeah, I have this, like, very negative reaction, just something about these Uncanny these Valley Yeah. And then and then the distortions and character inconsistencies is still rough to look at.
Speaker 1:Even when you I'm
Speaker 2:curious how you guys
Speaker 1:specific thing. It's still there's a vibe or feels off.
Speaker 3:Don't know.
Speaker 2:And so you guys have somewhat of a cap I mean, I'm I'm assuming a lot of the use cases, have somewhat of a captive audience, people that need to watch videos to learn about their role and their companies and things like that. But still, you wanna avoid people watching watching the videos that you guys generate and having that sort of negative reaction of, oh, this is AI. Right? So how do you think about avoiding that? What what what makes that possible?
Speaker 3:I think there's fundamentally, like, two types of video. Right? There's kind of video you watch because you want to, and this is both the stuff you'll find in feeds. So, when you're scrolling TikTok, you're on Netflix, just selecting, like, what movie to rent, whatever. Right?
Speaker 3:That's something you actively choose to do. And, generally, you have, like, a lot of choice. Right? Like, you could watch, like, a thousand different action films, but you choose to watch this exact one. And I think that's your point before.
Speaker 3:I I think AI will be a huge part in creating lots of this content in the future, but it still feels like the most the reason people mostly watch this stuff today is because it's fun. Right? It's novel. It's cool. It's AI.
Speaker 3:It's kind of weird. It's not because it's these are, like, amazing content yet, at least 99.9% of it. There's still some good content out there, I think. The space we operate in is much more around knowledge. You know?
Speaker 3:It's not really around creating storytelling content. It's not advertisements. It's generally content that you wouldn't comp it's not content that competes for your attention. Right? It's content that's very specific and helps teach you something.
Speaker 3:That could be product marketing as a company. Right? You wanna teach your pros your prospects why your is better than the competition's. There's only that one video to watch. Right?
Speaker 3:And the reason people create these videos is because it's better than text. So the I think on the first category of videos, you're generally competing against, like, high quality video recorded with cameras and people who really know what they're doing. I think the thing we really uncovered back in 2020 when we started building towards enterprise was that what we're actually replacing is text or slide decks. Yep. And in 2025, most people, especially your average consumer, wanna watch and listen to that content.
Speaker 3:They don't wanna read. And for some people, probably all the people listening to this podcast, like, I'd much rather prefer to, like, read a page of text than watch an AI generated video.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 3:But it turns out that that's not the preference for most people. Right? And when people have a problem with their bank and they're trying to figure out, how to do something, they don't wanna read a long page of text. If they're trying to figure out how their mortgage works, how much they have to pay in their mortgage, they don't wanna read a whole page of text. They'd much rather watch a video.
Speaker 3:And so what we're going down the path we're going down is just much more around, like, knowledge video. Right? It's it's much more of, like, replacing text with video than it's about replacing video with AI video. And that's a really, really big difference where I think, you know, when you look at SARA, Runway, a lot of these other models, they're much more competing to actually replace, like, real video with with AI video. And I think that's also a big market.
Speaker 3:It's it's it's super exciting. But we think that there's a much, much bigger market actually in in enterprise knowledge and and and turn that into video. And with that, should also say, I think, while a lot of the talk around AI video is always very much about the models. Right? That's the AI hype.
Speaker 3:At the moment, it's like there's a new model every second week. That's that's even more impressive than the other one. And that's awesome. Right? That's a big component, of course, of making these technologies work.
Speaker 3:But I think we have this mantra internally called utility of a novelty, which really is about, like, you know, it's it's not about cool demos. It's about bringing value to the customer. And when you think about why do you make a video, the actual generation of the pixels is a part of that, but it's a smaller part of a much bigger process. Right? So what we've been doing over the last five years is really building out a workflow.
Speaker 3:We help replace the camera with the AI models, but we also give you a kind of a Canva PowerPoint style editor to finalize your video. We enable someone who's a PowerPoint user, not an Adobe user, to to make their own video. Collaboration platform to content management system. It's a translation platform. We have our own video player that's made to work with AI video.
Speaker 3:And so for us, it's always been about building for the entire workflow of, like, someone has an idea or some piece of knowledge that they wanna communicate to an end consumer. How do we make that entire process as frictionless as possible? Right? And I think what it what it just turns out is that, yes, the AI models are really important, but there's so many other components of of making a product that that does this workflow really well. I think that that that's what we're much more focused on at Synthesia.
Speaker 2:Very cool. And, very impressed that you were able to to crack 90% of the Fortune 100.
Speaker 1:That's remarkable. Last question. We'll let you go. Do you see yourself as being a foundation model company and an application layer company over the long term? Or is there a world where you partner with the foundation model companies to let them suck up all the CapEx to generate frontier models?
Speaker 1:Do you already do that? How do you think about the the shape of the business long term?
Speaker 3:Sure. I mean, we try to be very intentional about, like, what kind of company we're building.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think every company should be. And I think it's increasingly clear that competing on the foundation model level is very difficult unless you raise a shit ton of money Yep. And you hire extremely expensive people. And I think that's just a game that very few companies can play. Right?
Speaker 3:We still train our own models. I think there's I think there's lots of use cases where that still makes sense for us. Again, if you work backwards from what are people trying to do with our models. Right? It's not just, like, an eight second clip, for example.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:It's not very useful. It's also not very useful that the identity doesn't get preserved across multiple. Because there's a lot of these, like, asterisks that you don't see when you watch the the cool demo videos of these new models that that are coming out. But we just started also aggregating other people's models in. So that both means you can just use, you know, be free inside the platform if you wanna create content that's outside of what an avatar model can do.
Speaker 3:We're also beginning to chain these models together in different ways. We create a role, b role, do lots of cool things with with these models. Right? But, you know, LLM is
Speaker 1:a huge part of
Speaker 3:our platform as well. We have a copilot product.
Speaker 1:We help
Speaker 3:you write the scripts, put together the design, the visual. So we we train models where we think it makes sense, and we think that it gives us a competitive advantage. But, you know, we've definitely also aggregating the market. And to the extent that we can avoid having to do massive training runs, I think that's the only rational choice to to to do in for for a company like us.
Speaker 1:That makes perfect sense. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to stop by The TV
Speaker 2:Congratulations on the overnight success.
Speaker 1:We'll talk to you soon. Success. Have a good one.
Speaker 3:Thanks, guys. Cheers, Victor. Our
Speaker 1:next guests are already in the restream waiting room. We'll bring in William Andogus from Periodic Labs. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. Welcome to the show. Welcome.
Speaker 1:How are you doing?
Speaker 12:Very good. Thanks for having us. Appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Fantastic. We have been so excited for this. This feels like antidote to the timeline today. Yes. So yeah.
Speaker 2:There's a
Speaker 1:lot of negativity about certain AI products. Why don't
Speaker 2:you take those two things of periodic.
Speaker 12:Yeah. I mean I mean, first of all, that that's very important technology too. So don't want to pile on the hate over there.
Speaker 2:Totally. Yeah. Mean, we've talked about the good and the bad. The good is that it's very entertaining outputs. There's logical business reasons why you would do it.
Speaker 2:Clearly, there's demand
Speaker 1:flywheels. And, yes, world models for training robotics, training you know, who knows? Maybe a robotic surgeon in a decade will be trained on Yeah. AI video in some way. But anyways,
Speaker 2:let's talk about you guys. Let's talk about you. Let's intros on yourselves and then and then the company.
Speaker 1:That'd be great.
Speaker 6:Hey, guys. My name is Dosh. I have a background in using machine learning to study physics. And after my PhD, I joined Google to do deep learning research, and that's where Liam and I met. So that was eight years ago.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:And at Google, I did some deep learning research, but I continued to do my PhD passion to kind of move all the advances from deep learning into solid state physics. And then in 02/2020, I actually started a team to just focus on material science because I felt like LLMs were getting really good, and we could probably really benefit from porting these advances to the physical R and D. And then I've been doing that until, you know, six months ago when Liam and I left our jobs and started this company.
Speaker 2:Amazing.
Speaker 12:Yeah. And I go by Liam, physics background academically, Spent many years at Google Brain, worked on a mix of generative models, reinforcement learning, and created some of the first trillion parameter neural nets. These are sparse models, really fun collaborations with Jeff Dean, Noam Shazir, and others.
Speaker 2:Got it.
Speaker 12:Then in late twenty twenty two, went to OpenAI, and a group of us took precursor chat products, and we turned that into ChatGPT. Like, I've told many, many people, it was legitimately a low key research preview. I mean, we there's like, the prior up to that point was there had been no successful chatbot.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 12:So there's a poll as to how many people would use this thing, and people were guessing numbers like 10,000, 50,000. Someone's like, oh, maybe a million people will use Chatuchiki, c t, which we exceeded in, like, a week. And, I mean, reflecting back on that, I think, obviously, there's good luck, good timing, but also boring things done really well. Like, we're really focused on training details, data, evals. There's no novelty to it.
Speaker 12:Like, ultimately, people have been building chatbots for many decades, but just crossed a critical boundary. Yeah. And so left six months ago to start periodic.
Speaker 1:What do you think of that Guern idea of you just need to, like, generate random ideas and look at connections between them to find scientific insight? Do you think there's anything there? Is that directionally correct? Is that a path that people will go down? Are you going down that path at all?
Speaker 12:I mean, I think it's incredibly promising. Like, I think linking these disparate ideas is really promising. However, unless you actually have experiment in the loop, you're just sort of thinking.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 12:So you can imagine, like, hey. Here's a a really promising thing to try. But as every scientist know, it's like until you actually take that idea into like, to try it, to act, you're really no further along to, like, building up a scientific understanding. So for periodic, we're it's that's our opinion, which is we need to have experiment in the loop. That's super key.
Speaker 1:There's so many different experiments. Are you selecting for a few different environments? Are you gonna get a large hadron collider or a wet lab? Like, the science is very broad, so have you narrowed it down at all?
Speaker 6:So one way of thinking about it is, you know, the LLMs today are really good at math and logic. Yeah. So the next obvious frontier is theoretical physics.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 6:And there are different energy scales of theoretical physics, but we wanted to take the part that is very relevant to human life, which is quantum mechanics, you know, Schrodinger's equation. Mhmm. So this affects all the inorganic materials, organic molecules, drugs. So we're starting at the level where we're just designing how atoms come together and how their properties can be utilized in devices.
Speaker 3:Just start with the simple stuff. Just see. What yeah.
Speaker 2:So so, yeah, just drilling in deeper, what does what does success look like for you guys as a team over the next even even know, I can imagine the five year, what success looks like five years, ten years, right? These sort of massive ambition. How do you how do you sort of make make, you know, immediate progress now that you guys are heavily funded and and have the resources to really move on on these opportunities?
Speaker 12:I think you can kind of describe it along technical and commercial goals. From technical goals, the highest level way to describe it is have a system that can intentionally design the world around us. So right now, we've built systems that understand the Internet. They have been trained on math and code. We wanna take these same same type of techniques and build system that can produce things of, like, properties of interest.
Speaker 12:So you're trying to optimize for a new material for semiconductor industry or space company or defense companies looking for something for, like, you know, a new heat shield for a missile or, you know, anything. It's like, how can we intentionally design the world around us? And and that's sort of a goal. Some of our higher risk goals are around novel discoveries that Doge can talk more about as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And even even be before you get into that, like, you know, you guys are coming from organizations that were totally okay with years and years and years of just deep research and not worrying about immediate commercial applications. From you guys with the new company, I'm assuming you're open to having much longer kind of commercial timelines and just you know, basically experimenting. Right? Some of this stuff is unpredictable.
Speaker 2:You talked about ChatGPT being a research preview, and it turned into a hit product. So, yeah, there has to be some, you know, takeaway from that process.
Speaker 12:I mean, one comment on that is we can basically produce through this technology, through experimental data, a foundational understanding of physics, of chemistry, of atoms, just the world around us. And you can sit at different levels of abstraction. Some some levels might be more kinda like scientific, like, and others might be more towards advanced engineering, advanced manufacturing, engineering. And we're gonna have both pieces as part of periodic. So the labs allow us to produce deeper understanding of different, like, physics, chemistry, material science systems.
Speaker 12:And our guidance there is, like, are we able to produce new discoveries? Are we able to advance science? But, however, that data also gives us a better foundation, when we're actually working with customers. So we wanna make sure that our labs, our prioritization, the tools we're teaching our agents do have some grounding in sort of the commercial
Speaker 2:Commercial opportunities.
Speaker 12:Yeah. Like, technology and capital are very intertwined. It's not like technology doesn't develop in a bubble, and we can accelerate science maximally when it's like a a very commercially successful, enterprise.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I went on a serious emotional roller coaster with the LK 99 saga. Give I and then I, there was a, you know, proposed breakthrough in in superconductors, room temperature superconductors. I was very excited on the Internet for a few days. Then it was found not to be such a breakthrough.
Speaker 1:And then I kind of fell out of that news cycle and stopped tracking it. Get me up to speed on where we are on superconductors. What's at stake if we can have a breakthrough there? Is that something you're interested in working on? Do you think that this is actually even a tractable problem that you can make any sort of prediction about where we are in terms of progress there?
Speaker 1:I'm I'm super interested in that.
Speaker 6:Yeah. You know, we're very excited about superconductors, and being able to discover a novel exciting superconductor requires us to do well on many dimensions of physical sciences, which we're very excited about. So one of these is being able to synthesize materials reliably, being able to characterize materials reliably, being able to predict their properties, design their, kind of defects. And for us, you know, it's also a very, important scientific goal. So currently, the highest TC superconductor at ambient pressure is about a 135 Kelvin.
Speaker 6:Mhmm. And under pressure, you can make it a lot higher temperature, but then it's not very practical because you can't really apply that kind of pressure.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 6:And it's very interesting to wonder, you know, can we bring that up to 200 Kelvin, for example? And if we can, even before it impacts products, I think it teaches us a lot about the universe as because it's a very large macro scale quantum property. So, you know, we have real good characterization tools in the lab, and that, you know, immediately prevents us from an issue like alkane 99, if we can actually measure its properties at different temperatures. And for us, the LLM being able to use the characterization tools and infer the relevant physical insights is crucial. So we're teaching our LLM agents, you know, the ability to synthesize, they're able to characterize, they're able to hypothesize the next step.
Speaker 6:So, yeah, it'll be really exciting, I think.
Speaker 1:And Yeah.
Speaker 12:That is part of this is is so key. Right? It's the lab is providing our grading function.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 12:So, again, like, that that keeps us grounded. That makes sure and, you know, it's sort of a very interesting objective to put a lot of optimization pressure against.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What what have you stack ranked the impact of super room temperature superconductors or even higher temperature superconductors in terms of the impact? I remember people talking about quantum computing. But then I also saw a demo of just some hoverboards and skateboards that were using magnets and supercooled magnets to kind of, like, float. Where do you think the impact would be if we get a breakthrough there in the next couple years?
Speaker 6:I mean, the impact is huge. Like, whenever you think about a futuristic technology, like fusion
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 6:You know, low low loss energy transmission Sure. On computing, as you said. And even, you know, when you talk to chip companies, like, think about the chip design of ten years from today. Yeah. Superconductors always come up because it's such a important quantum mechanical property, but at the same time, it's just very easy to understand.
Speaker 6:It lowers your resistance to a point where bosses are very low. Yep. So for us, it's probably one of the most impactful things we can do on the solid state physics side.
Speaker 2:Can you guys give us a white pill, like a pump up speech? I feel like so much of you know, there's been common chatter about, you know, all this CapEx, all this compute that that we're developing as a country and a human race, a lot of it's obviously going to go to image generation and memes and things like that, and that's fine. But you guys are doing the thing that has been promised by the AI community broadly for a long time, how excited should people be about the potential? I think you guys are both very modest. But talk about the impact in your words because I take it it means a lot coming from you given that this is your scientific discovery is like the entire focus, right?
Speaker 2:And commercializing it versus labs historically that are maybe working on some of the same stuff, but they're also working on a million other things. Right? They're also working on they could be working on cogen. They could be working on new versions of search, etcetera. But this is your guys' whole thing.
Speaker 2:So I'd like to to hear, yeah, just just that that optimistic vision of what's possible.
Speaker 12:I mean, ultimately, science is unbounded. That's one of the biggest drivers of progress for humanity. It's not like we optimize and we can now match the performance of a human on some task. It's you're just creating new technology, new abundance by being able to kinda control the physical world around you. And we think that the technology is at that stage where we've seen incredible things on models from mathematical reasoning, code reasoning, also the ability of some of these agents to start doing, like, real valuable work.
Speaker 12:But the world around us still kinda, like, largely looks the same. It's, like, not really moving too quickly. And I think as the cost of intelligence decreases, Doge and I are thinking the bottleneck increasingly becomes contact with the real world. Bring data, bring atoms, like, into this end to end system. That's going to lead to this new ability to just accelerate scientific progress, accelerate the technology around us.
Speaker 12:And, I mean, it's like the applications of, you know, scientific developments are are endless. Right? Like, you know, becoming more of a, you know, space traveling society, like, you know, new computation. It's, you know, it's it's unbounded. I think that's what excites us.
Speaker 6:Yeah. It's like, there'll be no end to this. Right? Like, it's not like we can finish science. Actually, the more Jobs
Speaker 2:never finished.
Speaker 6:That's Exactly. So it's a really, fun place to be because of that.
Speaker 1:I love that. Well, congratulations. We're gonna ring the gong for you. 300,000,000.
Speaker 3:Last last question I have before you guys jump off, and,
Speaker 2:you you keep it to thirty seconds. What's your philosophy around building and sharing your guys' work? We've seen different approaches from the labs. Thinking Machines has been experimenting, sharing some of their progress. SSI, been very silent.
Speaker 2:Some of the other labs are also, you know, you know, constantly sharing, you know, just just small products, etcetera. But how do you guys think you'll approach it given your focus?
Speaker 6:Yeah. So we're building tools in the physics space. We're building tools in LLM space, and we will definitely share whenever it seems like it will enable the community. We also have an academic grant program where we want to support academic groups that are also passionate about this space. Because we feel like, you know, science is endless, so there's so much to do, and we'll, you know, do it together.
Speaker 2:Amazing. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4:Thank you
Speaker 3:so much for coming on, breaking
Speaker 2:it down. I'm sure we'll have you back on again very soon.
Speaker 3:We'll talk to you soon. Thanks, Josh. Congrats.
Speaker 1:Our next guest is in the restream waiting room already.
Speaker 2:We Legal, AGI.
Speaker 1:Fundraising announcement. Let's do it.
Speaker 3:Bring in Jay from Eve. Jay, how are you doing?
Speaker 2:What's happening?
Speaker 1:I'm doing great.
Speaker 9:Thanks for having me
Speaker 3:on, guys.
Speaker 1:Thanks
Speaker 2:for week for you.
Speaker 1:Give us the news. Give us an introduction. Give us an explanation of the company. Give us an update on the news.
Speaker 9:Absolutely. And I can't I can't wait for what's coming next. Oh,
Speaker 3:yeah. You know.
Speaker 2:You know. Get that mallet ready.
Speaker 9:But we are Eve. We're AI for plaintiff's law, and we just raised $103,000,000 at a billion
Speaker 2:dollar. Boom. There we go. Fantastic. You know, we we've talked to various players in in AI Really?
Speaker 2:Legal. We don't, you know, follow the the space nearly as close as as probably, you know, many of the investors do and you do. But I first time hearing about you guys was yesterday. Give us the backstory on the company because you're not obviously just coming out of nowhere. I'm sure you guys have been cooking for a while.
Speaker 9:No. Absolutely. So we we took an unconventional approach Mhmm. Which is, you know, we basically took time to understand what plaintiff and defense law means and how they're different, which maybe a lot of people lot of people don't know. But plaintiff lawyers, you know, these are the ones that you would typically find fighting on on behalf of individuals.
Speaker 9:Right? So they typically don't charge billable hours. They make money when they win for you. Think labor and employment issues, personal injury issues, you know, family law, things like that. On the defense side, you get the nice benefit of retaining a company and kinda cashing it in every year.
Speaker 9:Right? And then you have to, typically, they charge by billable hours. So on the two sides, there's very, very different business problems and opportunities. On the plaintiff side, they care about how do I represent more customers with the best of my ability to win as much as possible for them? Right?
Speaker 9:Either changing conditions or money, right, in civil litigation. And on the defense side, it's like, how do I do more for the client, you know, for the same amount of time or maybe more time and and delivering value. So on on the plaintiff side, what we found is there's actually a really good merger between AI and the efficiencies you get from AI and their business model because you're able to go deeper and actually benefit more clients.
Speaker 2:Is that because you're charging on a value basis? Right? You're taking a fee based on the value that you capture for the client or the or the whatever the, like, you know, if they're sorry. The plaintiff, if there's a settlement. Whereas on the defense side, you're charging billable hours and your tech you know, there's some you can do a calculation as a client and say, how much value am I getting?
Speaker 2:Do I feel like this is a good deal? But it's less of a because it's based on billable hours, it's less of a it's less, like, value based pricing.
Speaker 9:Yeah. You you nailed it. Right? So we we typically charge based on how many clients they represent. So there's a very clear aligned of incentives between what we provide for our customers and what they provide for their clients.
Speaker 9:So we're kind
Speaker 2:And they have and they've got a lot. Plaintiff's law, they're you're incentivized to use more and more and more and more AI so you can have less time to serve each individual client and generate more revenue, which is, yeah, again, maybe different than on the on the defense side where it's like, oh, I I I mean, I like AI because it makes my job easier, but I don't wanna be perfectly efficient unless you just have overwhelming demand.
Speaker 9:You nailed it. And this is the really cool part about right now is our customers are using this to level the playing field and flip it in a way that's never been happening before. Right? So if you think about the average insurance company, they employ so many lawyers. And when you have a personal injury attorney showing up, it's oftentimes one person in court versus, like, 10 or 20.
Speaker 9:They just have endless resources to run you down. Right? And, I mean, you know, typically, if insurance paid out, like, the industry wouldn't exist at all. So, you know, that's that's what they're there to equalize and fight for on your behalf. And what people are doing with Eve is actually using it to now act as though they have a million dollar attorney backing every single step of the way from intake to resolve resolution of anyone.
Speaker 9:Right? So now you can actually do all these complicated legal workflows specific to plaintiff law, and we go deeper into these workflows than really any other tool can and deliver that to the high level of bar that you would want it to have as a client. Right? You don't want as a client to worry about how many cases are they working on, do they have time to spend on me, and, you know, the law firm has the same problem.
Speaker 2:How far away are we from just AI on AI, just violence in every in every case? It feels it feels like
Speaker 1:I I'll let you answer, but I I've heard a story, like, ten years ago about a law firm that set up a automated system just using not AI, just normal software to run through the line items that they were billing their client on the corporate side and detect what the client would say, hey, we're not paying for that. We're not paying for your two hour lunch. Like, so don't write that in. And so anyone who is writing their billable hours would know that it got flagged. They'll take it out.
Speaker 1:And then the and then the then the other party got software as well to detect what was gonna be, you know, maybe debatable in the billing. And so they did have this, like, software on software fight in legal specifically, but just at the billing level.
Speaker 3:But now we're we're going one layer up. But I'd love
Speaker 1:to hear your answer on how it all plays out.
Speaker 3:You know, this is actually
Speaker 9:a really interesting question and one we're seeing play out live is, again, the value alignment incentives. Mhmm. So on the plaintiff side, people are using it, and they're coming up with tactics because they know the other side has to bill hours.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 9:Right? And the other side doesn't want to really reduce the hours quite yet.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. So
Speaker 9:what's happening is, you know, one of the common ways defense slows you down is they kind of start discovery requests and responses. These sometimes take up forty eight hours from, like, the flow of parts to go fill out, and our customers using Eave are able to come back and return back right away. Right? And then the other side is like, what w you know, what is this? What's going on?
Speaker 9:And they wanna spend the time to to respond, and that's actually raising the settlement value of firms Mhmm. Because you're basically eating into what the lawyers would be charging their clients, right, on the other side.
Speaker 2:Interesting. What are are some of the downstream impacts of what you're building? You know, assume that you assume that you can get to, you know, 50%, you know, or some meaning double digit percent of of plaintiff law firms using Eve or comparable software, if there is a comparison. What what are know, is that gonna impact the insurance industry? Like, are they gonna have to you know, if if if every plaintiff has this super lawyer, you know, what what what are kind of downstream effects?
Speaker 9:Great question. There's a few different downstream effects I foresee happening, and we're seeing a little bit of this already. So for example, let's take labor and employment. Right? So think you get fired, harassed, etcetera, you're getting representation.
Speaker 9:In in this industry, typically, a lawyer would wanna see at least $5,000 in fee before even representing you. Because, again, they're doing it for free until they win. So they're baking that into how they think about it. And what we're seeing with Eve is actually a lot more pro bono cases or them going down the value chain to take on cases they otherwise would never have. Right?
Speaker 9:And now It's here for more lawsuits. We're getting more lawsuits.
Speaker 3:Wait. Yeah. So are lawsuits gonna go exponential, or are we gonna see exponential?
Speaker 2:I mean, this would be very American if if we used AI to just 10 x the amount of lawsuits annually. But it feels like
Speaker 3:Great great question. What's interesting, and maybe most people
Speaker 9:don't know this, is very few cases actually get to a lawsuit perspective.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 9:Right? So in personal injury, about 70% or so of cases actually get resolved before
Speaker 2:a Like, at the demand letter stage?
Speaker 9:Exactly. They would get resolved demand letter stage or some form of mediation before
Speaker 1:Might even just be like, hey. Yeah. Like, you didn't pay this invoice. You know, we we but we both know that this could turn into a lawsuit very quickly with AI, so we're just going to settle quicker, and we're going to get to the median outcome where both people are happy and That's exactly right.
Speaker 9:Because once a lawsuit starts, dollars 700 an hour the accounting hours.
Speaker 1:It's arbitration, right? Arbitration, essentially. It's like what's maybe the long term result of a lot of, like, these AIs battling it out.
Speaker 2:What's, give us some numbers. How, I mean, you you raised it a billion, so things are seemingly pretty good. But what what kind of traction have you been seeing so far?
Speaker 1:How many times have you been seeing? One
Speaker 9:of the one of the interesting bits is usage as well. And we've been fortunate. I mean, one of the really crazy things about this industry is I was just in a conference probably three weeks ago, and I asked this question every year. The last year I was there, I asked how many people have used AI every day or, you know, in the last week. 10 people out of 200 raised their hand.
Speaker 9:This time around, personal injury attorneys, 90% of them raised their hands.
Speaker 1:Wow. Wow.
Speaker 9:Right. So the amount of awareness and traction it's seeing is crazy, But what they've always been scared about is, like, how do I use it? And this is kind of the problem we're solving. Right? Because if you're just using ChatGPT or Gemini or whatever, you're spending a lot of time fixing things at the end, and that's not good enough for lawyers.
Speaker 9:They lose trust very quickly. So we had to go
Speaker 2:Yeah. If you have an associate that just constantly makes every single time they make, you know, one or two mistakes, those associates don't you know, eventually, they get turned out. They get let go. Right? So you wanna hold the AI to a higher bar.
Speaker 9:Yeah. Exactly. And then, like, when we hit that, you know, extra nine of accuracy, which I'm sure you two are very familiar with Oh, yeah. Our usage and adoption rate kinda blew up. Right?
Speaker 9:So we went from, I around 13 customers or so start of last year to now more than 450. I think we're approaching 500 now.
Speaker 1:That's
Speaker 9:good. And and, you know, dollar signs are increasing very rapidly as well, which is helps us invest even more behind r and d, which I'm super excited about.
Speaker 1:The Cognition team just rewrote all of Devon on the back of Claude 4.5. Are you in a similar world where a where a new model can cause, a fundamental shift in how you think about building the product? Are you sort of model agnostic? How closely are you tracking what the foundation labs are doing?
Speaker 9:This is one of the key decisions we made early on in the architecture is he worked very closely. Actually, funnily enough, we were one of the first productionized apps, I think, on cloud two back in the day, and they actually ex expanded context window just for us.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 9:So you have multiple modality of increases. Right? So model capability gets better.
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 9:Context window gets better. You know, agent functionality gets better. All of these have a pretty drastic implication on how deep into a workflow can we actually go
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 9:And what gets enabled.
Speaker 2:So We're somewhere somewhere out there, there's a there's a defense attorney who isn't online, not using AI, just doing everything the old fashioned way, and he's probably just getting his world rocked, like, month over month. I'm like, how did you respond to that in an hour? Expecting was expecting Wow, that to that's be I was expecting that to be three weeks.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's great. Walk me through this thesis. Tell me if I'm right or wrong. Anthropic's been incredibly focused on the flywheel of code, coding agents.
Speaker 1:They're hoovering up tons of data reinforcement learning on top of the code, developing a really dominant code model. OpenAI has been less focused on API, but ChatGPT is dominant. I've talked to I bet if you polled those lawyers, a lot of them are using ChatGPT. If they're not on the enterprise plan, ChatGPT and OpenAI are going to be able to train on that data. And so you might have a data flywheel that actually makes OpenAI's APIs better for legal work.
Speaker 1:Is that a reasonable thesis?
Speaker 9:Well, I mean, according to the agreements we signed with them, they're not supposed to.
Speaker 2:So we do
Speaker 1:We do not That's because you're on the enterprise plan. What I'm talking about is like, if I, a person, don't have an agreement with ChatGPT and I get a contract for an advertiser or something, and I just uploaded that to ChatGPT, they're going to train on that. And I'm not saying that's your company. I'm saying, me as an individual, I'm just putting extra data in ChatGPT. They're getting more data.
Speaker 1:It makes the model better, and then you benefit on the API side even though they're not training on your data.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think one of the interesting bits for
Speaker 9:us is we benefit from the general training OpenAI all these providers do.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 9:Mostly because, actually, law is weirdly touches everything. Yeah. You know, when when you get into a lawsuit, sometimes it's medical, sometimes it's technology. Right? Sometimes it's, like, quantum computing or something, and these lawyers have to somehow be up to speed on these things.
Speaker 9:Interesting. And the general training actually really helps. So that's one part of data flywheel. There's another part that I don't think people are thinking enough about, which is the one we benefit from in how we build Eve, which is all these intermediate tasks, right
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 9:Are actually not captured by anyone. An example of this is, like, you actually can't even go Google, how do I write a really good, you know, demand letter for a moving vehicle accident for against State Farm or something. Mhmm. You know, it just doesn't exist. And what they're doing internally is they're coming up with multiple artifacts to produce that final output.
Speaker 9:Right? So everyone has a workflow, produce this document, this document, this document, and pull information from these three to make this final document. And they've all come up with their own workflows. And one of the things that we've been, I think, fortunate to do in Eve is we actually allow them to kinda teach Eve to do their workflows, kinda like how they'll teach a new associate or a new hire. And then after that point, it just follows it, you know, diligently without fail at a high level of bar.
Speaker 9:Right? This doesn't miss things like a person would because it it finds everything instantly. Yeah. So that's one of the ways in which it's changing. And maybe I'll be a little spicy.
Speaker 9:Like, what I kinda predict will happen here is I actually think these law firms will will basically transform into software companies Mhmm. Over time. Right? So think about early Amazon or something. Everyone started, you know, being able to offload their hard disk and all these things into APIs.
Speaker 9:And what is happening with Eve is now instead of relying purely on human labor to scale, you can start offloading these very crucial tasks that were previously not API able into Eve. Right? And it can view yourself as now, hey. I'm not just servicing one client one on one anymore. I'm figuring out a way to service everyone that I'm an expert in.
Speaker 9:Right? So if I'm an expert in dealing with traumatic brain injuries, I'm gonna take on every single traumatic brain injury case and do the best I can for them and be a rock star at it. And this is, the ben main benefit that software companies benefit from. They've consolidated the r and d efforts to make it a really good product and sell it at, you know, incrementally lower additional cost for a net new customer.
Speaker 2:I think it's super exciting. I think the best the best lawyers are your friends. They're expensive friends. Right? But they they help you.
Speaker 2:You know, they're just they're they're there to think through problems and I think that's just gonna continue to be I think that's gonna continue to be valuable for a long time especially for the market that's paying for legal services today. But they're gonna be able to be a one person, You're gonna have a one person $100,000,000 revenue, you know, plaintiff law firm, I imagine. Right? Because you just have this massive efficiency and one person who's just great at, yeah, that what what's the doctor's, you know, bedside manners, basically. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like guiding somebody through a a, you know, potentially So challenging part of their super bullish on on what you're building.
Speaker 1:Congratulations.
Speaker 2:And thanks for breaking it down for us. Gotta come on anytime there's stuff in in law. This was a fun conversation.
Speaker 1:We'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 9:You so much. Appreciate it, guys.
Speaker 2:Cheers, Jay. Have a
Speaker 1:great one. Bye. I wanna close out. We gotta hop on with Taipei soon. But first, I wanna close out with this video from Elena or Elena.
Speaker 1:She's introducing Taya, AI you'll actually wanna wear. I wanna get your reaction to this launch video. Another AI wearable. They said it couldn't be done.
Speaker 3:Jewelry We worry so much about tomorrow. We forget about today.
Speaker 1:It's an aura ring on your neck. It is remarkable how much you can pack into a ring these days. I've always Is it an aura
Speaker 2:ring though? Is
Speaker 1:it actually
Speaker 2:give you bio
Speaker 1:No. No. No. It's not technically an Oura ring, but it's just the Oura ring form factor. It's a ring.
Speaker 1:Form factor. People wear necklaces. I haven't seen a
Speaker 3:device
Speaker 1:company go after this market at all. It seems obvious now that you're seeing it.
Speaker 2:And it I noticed you can turn it on or off, so it's not just default on recording
Speaker 1:And so it is an AI pendant. It is in the lineage of humaneandfriend.com, but it's less about saying mean things to you if you're a journalist. And instead, it's more focused on note taking and remembering things and being an opportunity. You pull out your phone to make a note, you get lost in the slop feed. Instead, you can just make a little note and it will remind you to go to this restaurant or that you want to, you know, get pick something up from the grocery store.
Speaker 2:Go eat Brady in the chat. Says, pre ordered a tie. Will probably give it to my mom. It's like Avi's friend thing, but actually novel and framed as jewelry.
Speaker 1:I I imagine this would go yeah. This they should ship this before Christmas because this would be a great Christmas gift, for sure. Agree with Godot.
Speaker 2:Actually looks obviously a more refined Yes. You can see even at the software layer. Yes. Seems like they've done a bit more to not they're not trying they're what I'm not clear on is how much are they trying to be your friend? Do they care about that at all?
Speaker 2:Is it just about function?
Speaker 1:It does have a human name. Taya sounds like a name that you could wind up interacting with as a, you know, an AI friend or AI companion.
Speaker 2:Alright. Fused in the chat says might have to propose with Ataya. I don't know about that. Settle I think the Maybe
Speaker 1:non IoT device might be Lindy. But I mean, it's cool. I think we've seen so many shots on goal with the AI devices. And it's good to see another one.
Speaker 2:We should work on our own an AI device that's a full sized, life size horse.
Speaker 1:It just has it just has an entire h 100 rack inside of it. You have forklifts
Speaker 2:to bring it around.
Speaker 1:It can inference with GPT five locally. Horse cam is looking great.
Speaker 2:I got massive
Speaker 6:this thing is.
Speaker 1:I was gonna say, what about Jordy, what about a smart cigar that you smoke to the filter? And and as you smoke it, it gets less and less compute to that
Speaker 2:I love this horse so much.
Speaker 1:It's it's I can't wait for the literal unboxing of the horse. We need to make more
Speaker 2:videos The ungrading. For
Speaker 1:In other news, Elon is building Grokkopedia with xAI. He says it'll be a massive improvement over Wikipedia. People have been going back and forth on how valuable Wikipedia is. I think the founder of Wikipedia was not a fan of it anymore, kind of the creation, sort of a Frankenstein's monster situation, I suppose.
Speaker 2:Well, I have a little white pill to end the show. Let's end on Yes, a positive please. Gwart says, doesn't matter who you are or where you come from, crypto provides the opportunity for anyone in the world to make it. It's true. And, of course, Forbes reported yesterday that Baron Trump is worth a 150,000,000 and has made an estimated 80,000,000 from token sales with an additional 2,300,000,000.0 in locked up tokens.
Speaker 2:So he has been Get him on
Speaker 1:the show.
Speaker 2:Opening up You know, you remember when people got mad that Hunter was selling his paintings for Yeah. Maybe more than they were worth or being on a board here or there. You know, he's So much more efficient to remove the paintings. He's tokens. Hunter Biden's got to be missed that he didn't get into cryptocurrency.
Speaker 1:Oof. Yeah. Missed opportunity. You missed 100% of the tokens you don't want.
Speaker 2:I really missed out on Bill. I I I don't know. It's hard to imagine. I I guess Hunter Biden token launched by Hunter Biden would probably
Speaker 1:Might move. Who knows?
Speaker 2:Probably.
Speaker 1:Be safe be safe out there. Yeah. Be safe out there, everyone. The chat is asking us to name the horse. They're also asking for the backstory on the horse.
Speaker 1:It's lot of tomorrow. We can Yeah.
Speaker 2:We'll we'll do a whole deep dive on Wait.
Speaker 1:This is on a questionism tomorrow. We've long been fans of equestrianism. But we gotta hop on with Taipei. Thank you so much for tuning in. Leave us five stars in Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and stay safe out there in the trenches, folks.
Speaker 1:We'll see you tomorrow. Have a great rest of your day. Goodbye.