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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matt Brown, the podcast where pastor and author, Matt Brown, debriefs your questions about Christianity and current issues shaping our culture. Thank you for listening, and enjoy the show.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Hey, guys. Welcome back to The Debrief. I'm here with John and we're gonna be jumping into some of your questions today. So, John, let's get rolling. This is from Amber from Riverside.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I just started reading the awe of God this week. You talk about fearing God in honor in an honoring and respectful manner. Many people try to reiterate the fact that God is like our father. How would you explain that concept to someone who doesn't have a healthy relationship with or even know their father? I know who this girl is.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And what tools would you give someone to help them truly believe it? This is a broken young woman. Amber, thank you for sending in this question. I appreciate your authenticity. I'll share more about her story with you off air.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But abuse, neglect, just violence, and just heartache. And so, any image of father is painful for me.
John Bevere:So Amber, I'm I'm just so I'm so touched by what you've gone through, and I'm so compassionate towards what you've lived through. But Amber, God, the father is not your father. And the image that your father has painted you is now distorted of what a true father is. And a true father loves his little girl and tenderly nurtures his little girl and wants to see his little girl grow and be loved and be celebrated. That's the real father in heaven.
John Bevere:Mhmm. And I know you've never experienced that, but if you will allow God to come in, and he's not like our father. He is our father. Mhmm. And so he is this is the thing, Amber.
John Bevere:I I had a World War II dad. My dad was not engaged with me. Very quiet. I can't remember ever getting a hug from my dad, but I deeply love my dad. He's in heaven now.
John Bevere:Thank God. But all of us as fathers, we make mistakes. And the question is, how severe are mistakes as fathers? Some are very severe like Amber's father.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
John Bevere:And now what has to happen is God will reveal. You know, Lisa had a very similar situation, and God one day showed her the scripture, when my mother and father have deserted me, then God becomes my father. And Lisa said and God said to Lisa that day, Lisa, you know, her dad had deserted her. She I remember we drove 2 hours to go see him because she wanted him to see the grandchildren. He put a sign on the door and said, hey.
John Bevere:I had a party to go to. And she cried all the way back. Right? And God said to her, John when John had needs something, he goes to his earthly dad, which I did. My dad was there for me in that respect.
John Bevere:He said, but Lisa, your dad has deserted you. I'm your dad. You can come too, and this special relationship developed between Lisa and God, and I thought it was so beautiful that anytime she needed something that an earthly dad would give her, she went to God the father and I saw him do this for her. And, I mean, to the point of nurturing her soul. Wow.
John Bevere:Right? I remember she told me something. She said that the Lord said to her. He said, Lisa, I always thought you were funny. I mean, here's God speaking that to my wife's heart.
John Bevere:And and I'm like, that's something a dad would say to his daughter to compliment his daughter and nurture her his daughter. But Amber, I wanna tell you to be brave and know that even though God is a holy and a mighty God that puts people on their face, he also has the heart of a dad. And he also wants to nurture you, and he wants you to flourish in his presence. Give him that opportunity. Be vulnerable.
John Bevere:Pour out your heart to him. Just say, god, I'm having so much trouble trusting you as a father because my father's let me down, but I'm gonna do it. Mhmm. And I want you to be my dad, and he'll do it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And I just wanna, my heart goes out to all of our listeners who didn't have a dad or had an abusive dad. And I think it's why Jesus reveals God as father to us because he knows the brokenness of so many. And so, you know, and, you know, just again, Amber looked at Jesus. He just says, you know, Jesus says, you know, I can see my father and I do everything that he says, and so much of who the father is is reflected to us in the person of Jesus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so he says, look, I I'm only doing what he says. I'm only I'm only doing what I see him doing. And so just know that even though our father is to be feared, part of who dad is is we're seeing in Jesus. We see it in his son. Like, when I look at your boys, you know, I see you in them.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They're distinct, but I see you in them, and I see your strength and your love in them. And, so, Amber, I'm going to be praying for you, and thank you for sending this question in. I just I just love I love this gal. Praying for this gal. Alright.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:This next one is Brian from Moreno Valley. Why do you think the term holy or holiness is so weird and standoffish to people? And how do we navigate that as a Christian? Man, I feel like you hit this in your message.
John Bevere:I did. Did. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's been I mean, okay.
John Bevere:Everything that's important, what is the devil gonna try to do? Yeah. He's going to try to distort it. Try to Yes. There's there's a there's a proverb, Matt.
John Bevere:A Chinese proverb that says, the cat that's been scalded by the boiling water will fear even cool water. So what is the proverb saying that if you pour boiling water on a cat and you scald the cat with it, when you put the cool water out that will bring refreshing, the cat will actually run from it. Now think about everything that's important for our getting close to God. What is the devil gonna try to do? He's gonna try to distort it.
John Bevere:So let's just talk faith. Without faith, it's impossible to please God. Oh, my goodness. Well, I remember back in the eighties nineties, there were these teachers that came up in so distorted faith that made it all about satisfying my selfish desires. Mhmm.
John Bevere:Using my faith to satisfy my my lusts, my my greed. Right? And it really turned people off to the point where when you mentioned faith, and you even said something scriptural, like the word of faith, people are like Yes. Don't talk to me about that. Well, the same thing with holiness.
John Bevere:Okay. So now oh oh, well, let let's talk another one. Finances. Yeah. I mean, Jesus talks about finances so much.
John Bevere:Right? It's in the new testament so much. But what happens? You get all these teachers rise and and and they're living in opulence and they're getting, you know, trying to figure out little ways and getting money out of people. Now, all of a sudden, you're like, don't talk to me about finances.
John Bevere:Wait a minute, wait a minute. You're never gonna have a harvest if you don't understand that Paul said you gotta plant in order to have a harvest. So now you don't wanna hear the healthy aspect of it. Same thing happened with holiness. Mean spirited peach teachers that wanted to control people into a behavior that they thought was right began to constrict people's lives, began to put the legalistic bondages on people, and now they've been scalded by that legalistic holiness.
John Bevere:Now you mentioned healthy holiness, which CS Lewis says is irresistible when you meet the real holiness. And I agree with that because I have met the real holiness, and it is so hungry. I mean, I'm reading 3 books right now at the same time on holiness.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Wow. Okay.
John Bevere:And I don't understand why, but I am just so hungry for it. So when you understand that holiness is the doorway into an intimate relationship with God, now all of a sudden you realize what it really is all about, and it's all about being separated. Holiness to me is just like, you know, when Lisa walked down the aisle and she got married to me, she said goodbye to 3,900,000,000 guys. She's just saying, this is the man. I'm gonna be his.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:And when we when we are really, truly, authentically walking in holiness, it just means I'm God's. I'm His. I'm His bride, and I chose Him.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes.
John Bevere:And and and and and and God doesn't ask any more from us than what a healthy spouse asks from his wife or her husband. I just want you to be faithful to me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
John Bevere:And that's holiness in a nutshell. To me, that's you know, people when they hear the word holiness, they think of purity, but that's not the primary definition of holiness. The holiness, it's separated unto something. Yeah. I am separated.
John Bevere:I'm his. And what a wonderful thing to be separated unto the creator of the universe Yeah. Where He actually is you you know Psalm 8 where it says, oh, God, when I look at the heavens, right, What is man? Right. I mean, here I am looking at this vast heavens.
John Bevere:I mean, I could go on and on and on because I studied astronomy and physics and all of that. I mean, when you just look at the universe, your mind gets blown. I mean, literally blown when you see the distances. I mean, it would take 670,000,000 miles to fly nonstop on a United Airlines to the nearest star. Yeah.
John Bevere:And yet that near star's only 4.3 light years away. The next closest galaxy is 2,300,000 light years. Most people don't even get that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. No.
John Bevere:I know. When you start understanding that, you're like, woah. That really does declare your greatness, your glory. Right? So here, when when when in Psalm 8, when it says, what is man that you are mindful of him Mhmm.
John Bevere:I believe it's one of those massive giant angels that surrounds the throne, and I believe that when that angel watched God and the interest he took in human beings, he went, what is that that you are so ever thinking about him or her? It blew that angel away.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:And and that's why it is so awesome to me how much God cares about us as human beings. I mean, I'm on my knees in the hotel room this morning, and I'm just saying, God, thanks for choosing us. I mean, you could have let the whole human race go to hell, but yet you died. You died knowing what you would suffer. You chose to do this.
John Bevere:It just is awesome when you think about it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, I love it man. Oh, it's so good. Yeah, I I think you know, like you said, the whole movement of God is love, you know, and because the church was rigid and harsh and judgmental and legalistic, and so that, you know, the Jesus revolution, right? We needed to get that other side of the truth of God, but now we're over there and we've forgotten, you know, I had a guy at our church couple the last guy that was gonna speak said, I'm gonna preach against legalism. I was
John Bevere:was like, no, sandals could use a little legalism.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, you know, because I I tell people I pastor First Southern Baptist Church, Sodom and Gomorrah. Like that's like, that's where we are in California. I know. You know, because because people are just they have this picture of God, you know, it's kind it's kind of Catholic, kind of not. And then it's all this cultural stuff, but it's it's nothing biblical.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I just kinda go, God gets me, God loves me, God's my cheerleader. God wants me to be me rather than me to be who he's created me to be. And so identity is just just a mess here. This next question, John, is, you know, a little aggressive, so I apologize, but that's how we roll at Sandals Church. So you have written what feels like a 1000000 books, 24 actually, Alex, so thanks for rubbing it in.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:24 books. John just wrote 1 in the bathroom before he came out. How have you navigated and decipher deciphered your words versus God's words? Well, that's good. And fought for humility throughout that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, Alex, I hope John is still my friend after this question.
John Bevere:Alex, I I love that question. No. I actually do. I think I've already kind of answered it. I without a doubt, Alex, I think the protection of God on my life was the fact that I was so bad in English.
John Bevere:So, now that I looked at these books have sold in the tens of 1,000,000. Right? I realized that that never could have happened without God. So as far as the humility aspect, I I more than any other human being realized my name's on the book because I was the first guy to get to read it. Now, as far as the aspect of writing God's thoughts, not my thoughts, it's my absolute passion and I pray this, that when I sit down and write, that God would inspire me and give me His words.
John Bevere:Amen. Now, I've gotta make sure my heart stays neutral. I gotta make sure I'm not angry at a group of people when I'm writing something. I gotta make sure that my heart is has his heart. Is there gonna be is there gonna be errors and flaws?
John Bevere:Probably. Mhmm. And probably one day Jesus will expose that. I hope not. Yeah.
John Bevere:But my faith is when I say because because this thing, I'm never gonna write a book unless it's in faith. I actually said to the lord, I'm not writing a book unless you speak to me about it. And so all 24 times, God has actually spoken to me. I waited on the all of God book for years because I kept waiting for God to say right. I remember at one point between 2,000 and 2004, my COO came in and says because my role is to go to the ministry.
John Bevere:All you have to do is sign that dotted line, and our ministry is gonna get a 6 figure check. And I said, no, I'm not doing it. And he said, why? I said, because God hadn't spoken to me about a book, so I'm not signing it up. You on that.
John Bevere:Yeah. And and and because I have too much fear, healthy fear, realizing the people that I'm I'm I'm reaching. I mean, in Vietnam, we're the most published authors secular or Christian. I can say that in, like, 47 other languages. So I have actually now prayed, Matt.
John Bevere:I've said, God, if you see me going south and you see me doing something that's gonna bring shame, I want you to take me out. I want you to take me out, and I had to realize that he will do that if I do. So, I want to keep the fear of God. I'm praying that God baptizes me with fresh fear of God every day, because I know the fear of God is what what departs from sin. When I've got that in me, I'll depart from sin.
John Bevere:Right? Mhmm. So there's a real fear of the Lord, and there's a real mix of faith in that, of saying, okay, God, faith without actions, corresponding actions is dead. Yes. So I've got to sit down and know, okay, Lord, you're going to give me the words for this chapter.
John Bevere:Mhmm. And And to be honest with you, it makes it really helpful for me when I look at the fact that I've never made an outline for a book. Mhmm. And how does a book come out? I mean, you're sitting there going, what?
John Bevere:I mean, people laugh at me and go, you're kidding. You write an entire book without an outline. Yeah. Well, that tells me even more it has to be God. Mhmm.
John Bevere:It can't be me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:I'm not that smart, Matt.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah.
John Bevere:I mean, I I I did horrible in English, so I think all of us in the areas that God gifts us in Mhmm. Have to constantly keep before us that this is his ability, not my ability. Yeah. Paul said it like this in 1st Corinthians 47. What do you have that you didn't receive?
John Bevere:So why do you act like you didn't receive it? Yeah. So anything, if my ability to speak, I put my wife to sleep the first time she heard me preach after getting married. Her best seriously, her best friend sitting next to her, I watched drool come out of the side of her mouth.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh my gosh.
John Bevere:Now I speak in front of 5,000 people, 10000 people, 20,000 people. People say, do you get nervous? And I say, no, I don't. They think I'm being arrogant. I'm not being arrogant.
John Bevere:I know how bad I was, and I know if God doesn't show up, we're all in trouble, but the thing is he does, and it's his ability, and he took a boy who put his wife to sleep before his hand came on my life, and I thank God for that. What happens if I would have been just a natural, and all of a sudden he put my hand on my life? Well, it would have taken a lot more character development in my life to realize, okay, realize this came from God right from the beginning. Yeah. Does that make sense?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. No. That's a good word. Yeah. You know, Alex, I'm not I'm not John.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, you know, I've only written 2 books, but I can just tell you my story. You know, when I wrote this, it was done. And I sent it off to my first reader and she didn't get back to me. And her husband called me and he said: She doesn't wanna tell you. And I said: What?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And he said: She doesn't like it. And I went: Okay. And I heard this from the Lord. You've been polishing a turd for 6 months. I heard that from the Lord John.
John Bevere:Oh my gosh.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Wow. And so I called I called her and I said, Laurie, what's wrong with the book? And she said, the chapter I asked you to read first, chapter 12, she said chapter 12 is fantastic, but we're not gonna get anybody there. I said, so you want me to rewrite 11 chapters? She said, no, I want you to throw them away and start over.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, Alex, here's what I did. I cried out to the Lord and I said the Lord I said, Lord, this is a turd. That it's me. It's been me. And I and I I just got rid of it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And Tammy, my wife, said thank God. She didn't like it either. And I sat there and I just it just every day I cried and I wept and I said, God help me. And that's where that book came. And so I wrote that book in 3 months.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, I had chapter 12 done, but I threw away 60,000 words and you
John Bevere:know That's a lot of work.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:How painful that is. But for me, what I had to do is I had to die to what I was trying to do because I was trying people that are listening, I'm making is it ear quotes? I was trying to write a book, but God had something to say and it wasn't in what I was writing. And so, you know, you've heard messages where you're like, that's not anointed. You know, you've heard a pastor and you've seen things and you know, you know when God is present in a message.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know when God is present when you're writing something. And what I would just say is, just like holiness, when you sense the absence of God, freak out and get it right and invite him back into that process. And don't be afraid. So repent. Don't be afraid to turn around and do something different.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Metaneo, change your life. And, you know, so that was for me. You know, you're married to Lisa Bevere. No one else in the world is. So you have a Holy Spirit lightning rod to speak into your life.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so for me, I'm just so grateful, you know, because Tammy I know how you and Lisa do, but she didn't want to have tension between us. So she didn't want to read it, but she had snuck a peek at it and she didn't like it. And she was so grateful that Lori said, she just said, this isn't it. This isn't it. So
John Bevere:A life scripture for me has been Psalm 127, except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain. Who build it? You can build a house and God not be in it. Yes. You can write 60,000 words and God not be in it, and that is a fearful thing when you think about it.
John Bevere:And that's why I believe when we posture ourselves as you did and you come before God and you humble yourself, that's when I believe God says I'll dwell with the humble. I who am high and lofty and mighty, I dwell with him who is of a contrite and a humble spirit. I don't want God visiting me. I want God dwelling with me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:And that's all dependent on me humbling myself and having a contrite repented heart before him constantly.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. And you you know you work with Kyle Olin.
John Bevere:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so Kyle we we share the same editor which just makes me feel so much more important. But, you know, Kyle, because the book was due Thanksgiving. And this is January 6th when my first reader says, throw this away. But I think God
John Bevere:Are you talking January 6th this year?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No, last year.
John Bevere:Oh, last year. Yeah,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:last year. And so, so and I told Kyle, I said, hey, it's not good enough. I I need more time. And I'll tell you why I love Kyle. He said, take all the time you need because we wanna hear the book God wants.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I was just grateful for that. Because you know, it can get a little pressure oriented like, hey, this is this has got to be done. And I was 3 months behind the deadline. And, so I I'm just really grateful. So, Alex, I think that, you know, I mean, I don't want to do anything unless God's in it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And, you know, I I learned years ago when I first figured out I was pretty good at speaking, I got a little little excited about that. And I remember, John, we were preaching a series. You remember the 5 Longo Love Languages? Yeah. So I was preaching through that, and people thought, you know, I was a genius because I didn't write it, but I'm preaching through that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I remember walking on stage and the Holy Spirit said, you think you're pretty good, don't you? Let's see how you do on your own. And I walked up on stage and I preached this sermon, and it and nothing worked, John. Nothing worked. Nothing happened.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I remember standing in the lobby and there was this woman, and sandals had grown from about a 100 people to a 1000 people in 6 months. And a woman in the lobby said this to me, John, what happened tonight? We only had evening services. You were not yourself. Oh no no no.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She was wrong. I was myself. I was up there without Holy Spirit. And I went home, and here's what God convicted me. I had spent more time on my outfit that week than I had in prayer.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I'll just tell you what, the Holy Spirit just said, let's go. Let's see, let's see what Matt can do. And, and so, from that point forward, I just fell I fell on my knees before the Lord and I saw what I can do without him. And I just said, never again. Never, ever again.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because It's one of
John Bevere:the greatest things that ever happened to you in regard to your ministry.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know. Oh, my goodness. So
John Bevere:And I have similar stories, and I'm telling you those no. I'm not gonna say. I'm just saying those are the things. I so appreciate God doing it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know. I know. Okay. Griffin from, Azusa. What are some practical things you do to experience the presence of God?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's practical things.
John Bevere:That I love that question because in 2020 when COVID hit, I set a goal that I wanted to connect with God every single day. And, the first thing that I learned as far as really connecting because you know when you come out of prayer and you really didn't connect, and you know when you come out of prayer and you really connected. Right? So I I used to really, really struggle, and this was the first thing God taught me. And and and I'd go into the I'd go in just praying or I'd sing, and it would take so long to really connect, right, and sometimes I wouldn't, a lot of times I wouldn't.
John Bevere:So one day, I decide, I'm not even gonna say a word. I'm just going to think about how awesome my my dad is. And I'd start thinking about weighing every drop of water on the earth in the palm of his hands, weighing the mountains and scales, the fact that he would take a body, empty himself. And all of a sudden, there was the presence of God. I went, wow.
John Bevere:That's pretty amazing. So the next day, I thought I'm gonna try it again. So I started thinking about how awesome God was. Right? There was this presence.
John Bevere:I thought, okay, this is getting easy. So the next day I do it again, it happens again. Mhmm. So that day, I said, okay. What's going on?
John Bevere:Mhmm. Why is it now so easy getting the presence of God? And the holy spirit said to me immediately, he said, how did Jesus teach his disciples to pray? So I just say the Lord's prayer. Our father, which art in heaven, hell, And I stopped myself and went, hallowed be your name.
John Bevere:Oh my gosh. And I saw it right there. Jesus taught his disciples, don't come into the presence of God unless you come in with a heart of awe and wonder and a heart that keeps His name holy, right, Set apart, sanctified. Mhmm. So that was one.
John Bevere:The second way was to be authentic and really get to my heart.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
John Bevere:Like not just praying words or things that I really wanted to be pray prayerful about, but really getting and laying aside all anxieties. So anxieties will keep you out of the presence of God more than anything else I know. Yes. And a real revelation hit me just a month ago. I'm reading 1st Peter 5, and I realize Peter says, Humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, and the next statement is casting all of your anxieties on him.
John Bevere:Wow. I went, oh my gosh. When I don't cast my anxiety on him, I'm not I'm being proud because I'm thinking I can take care of this by thinking this through. And I realized right then, a aspect of humbling myself was to release anxieties into his hand. It doesn't mean just not being concerned about something.
John Bevere:It means willfully giving Him the care, knowing that He will take care of it. That will clear me quicker than anything else. So the real battle, I think, when we come into the prayer closet is to get our mind off of our our anxieties, cares, and worries onto the awesomeness of God, and the sooner we do that, the faster we get into his presence and connect.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I needed this talk last night.
John Bevere:Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I feel like John's a day late. No. Like last night, you know, I'm taking care of my aging parents and I went over there and they had a hard night. So my mom backs out. My dad has is battling dementia.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So my mom's having a physical ailment. My dad's having a and I just got I got overwhelmed. And what I needed to do is I needed to hear what you just said right there. Because my anxiety over caring for my aging parents was overwhelming me, and I should I should've I should've didn't. So I I I don't know if anybody else needed to hear what you just said, but I feel like the podcast was just for me right now.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I actually asked Tammy when we went to bed last night. I said, would you pray for me? I said, I'm just really angry because I love my mom and dad. Like And I love that you do. And God loves that you do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was hard for me to see them hurting so bad. And so, and anyways, it was just man, last night I got I got full of fear. I'm thinking, okay, how am I going to care for them? They live right here where we are, and I live about 30 minutes that way. So I'm, you know, my mind's spinning, like, what do I do?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so so anyways, I want people to go back and rewind this. You know, when I listen to podcasts, I do 15 and and I can't imagine I'm the only person that needed to hear that today. And I can't believe that you spoke that, and I needed that. I needed it last night. But man, that that's
John Bevere:just It just shows the Holy Spirit's here in our midst.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Amen. Alright. Last question. Diane from Redlands. I love the message you preach at Sandals because she must have been in the, in the studio.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yep. I love, I would love to know, have you ever struggled with legalism in the pursuit of holiness? And if so, what helped you transition, oh, I love this question, Diane, out of that bondage?
John Bevere:Diane, that's an excellent question. All of these have been excellent questions. I wanna say that to everybody. Diane, I came out of a Catholic background, but then I came into more of a faith type of atmosphere that emphasized faith and not anything about character. And in the midst of that, I discovered the importance of holiness.
John Bevere:And my first initial response to holiness, I went into a legalistic aspect. My kids and Lisa and I laugh about it, and I talk about it as my days of being oversaved. And all my kids laugh, and they're very merciful to me, I will say, but the way I came out of it is understanding. Not understanding, really praying for the heart of God and the love of God. Now let me kind of let me tell the story.
John Bevere:I got to the place where I remember I was invited to one of the largest conferences in Europe, all the most influential this is in the 19 nineties, All the most influential leaders were there, and, end of the 1990s. And I preached 3 messages, and I heard from 3 different continents that I beat the sheep. The guy who led the conference told 3 different leaders from 3 different continents that I had beaten the sheep.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Wow. Ouch.
John Bevere:And it hit me hard. And I remember really hearing you know, because Jesus had agreed with your adversary quickly, and I'm always like, okay, when people criticize me, is there something to this? And I thought, there's something to this, because I I I had just gotten really upset with my oldest son about what today I would actually laugh about and think is hilarious. And I started going into my basement for 4 months, crying out that God would pour out his compassion in my heart. Literally every morning I went in, it was the first thing I was praying about.
John Bevere:I said, God, I want compassion. Well, God gave me a revelation in that time, and I'll never forget this as long as I live, and that revelation is gonna sound silly, but it was a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine get. Amen. And all of a sudden I realized there are people that I had heard said, oh, don't sugarcoat it. Now my motto today is sugarcoat it as much as you can.
John Bevere:Because honey and sugar does not diminish the potency of the medicine. It's when we compromise the medicine is when we make it ineffective. And I started praying, God, give me the way of saying this with compassion and and humor. I'm at because I if I I told you this yesterday, I told everybody this yesterday, if I try to be funny, I'm not. But God, when I really find I'm really flowing with Him, Lisa says, you're funny.
John Bevere:Yeah. You'll say things that I think are funny. Yeah. And and God started doing that for me. And I started looking at people through different eyes.
John Bevere:And then one of the greatest things happened. I I went to a conference, and it was it was in Montreal, Canada. It's the large church in in in Quebec. And the guy's really a great guy, you know, ice hockey player. I played hockey till I was 40.
John Bevere:So we 44. So we'd play hockey when I'd go up there and preach for him. But I preached 3 services for him in that conference, and he said, can I go to dinner with you alone? And I said, sure. So we sit down at dinner, and this guy looked at me.
John Bevere:He said, the potency of your message has not been altered, not even a little bit. He said, but I've never seen so much compassion pouring out of me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I love that.
John Bevere:I start crying at that dinner. And I realized God had answered my prayer for 4 months in the basement saying, God, give me a heart of compassion for your people. I don't wanna ever beat your sheep beat your people. And so I would say, yes. I got a little legalistic.
John Bevere:I got overzealous. I was swinging the pendulum from the loose living I was seeing in in my circles, my church, and I started seeing the importance of holiness, and I became a little legalistic. I find this is a natural process of us learning and growing. Yeah. Sometimes you'll have the legalistic people, they'll get free, and they'll swing it to the other end.
John Bevere:And now you're a little bit a little you're a little too loose for me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right? No. Yeah.
John Bevere:And they realize it and swing it back to
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:the middle. Yeah.
John Bevere:So I I almost feel like if we're on either end of the spectrum, sometimes we go a little bit further on the pendulum and we gotta get it back to to ground 0, to where we're bathed in compassion and we also have that reverent holy fear. When the when we've got those 2 and we keep those before our hearts, I believe that's when we become a healthy believer and we represent Jesus well. That's my thoughts.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Man, that's a great word. Diane, I hope that spoke to you. Thanks everybody for listening today's episode. You can always submit your questions anytime to move.sc/ask or you can go to the Sandals Church app. If you wanna watch John's message, it will be linked at the end of the episode.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And John, thank you so much for blessing Sandals Church. Thank you so much for blessing me and Tammy. Thank you for changing my life because you have allowed God to speak through you. And I said this, I don't know if you guys heard this, but I said when I introduced him in the studio, whenever John speaks, God speaks to me. And you did it again today with your whole thing with prayer and anxiety.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's where I was last night. So I love you, brother. Thank you so much, for listening everybody and check out, his message. Get all of his books. Beta Satan is one of my favorite books all time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm still working through the awe of God. He's got, a bunch of other books that I haven't read. I gotta get to those as well. But support, just him and Lisa Bevere. Pray for them.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They're an important voice in our culture, calling and challenging the church to be what God has called us to be. So thank you so much. Love you guys and I'll be looking forward to you next week. Hey, guys. Thank you so much for listening to this episode.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:My book, Everyday A Miracle, comes out March 5th. Please preorder today. It is a book about a journey towards trusting God who heals inside and out. Thanks for watching the episode.