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The WorkWell Podcast™ is back and I am so excited about the inspiring guests we have lined up. Wellbeing at work is the issue of our time. This podcast is your lens into what the experts are seeing, thinking, and doing.
Hi, I am Jen Fisher, host, bestselling author and influential speaker in the corporate wellbeing movement and the first-ever Chief Wellbeing Officer in the professional services industry. On this show, I sit down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations on all things wellbeing at work. Wellbeing is the future of work. This podcast will help you as an individual, but also support you in being part of the movement for change in your own organizations and communities. Wellbeing can be the outcome of work well designed. And we all have a role to play in this critical transformation!
This podcast provides general information and discussions about health and wellness. The content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast. The podcast owner, producer and any sponsors are not liable for any health-related claims or decisions made based on the information presented or discussed.
Jen Fisher: [00:00:00] Let's be honest. We've all had that boss who made our work life miserable. The one who sent emails at midnight, took credit for our work, or made us question our own abilities. But here's the uncomfortable truth. Many of us have also been that boss at some point. Maybe we've sent those late night emails, micromanaged our teams, or let the pressure get to us in ways that hurt the people we were supposed to be leading.
What if we could learn from both sides of this equation, our experiences with bad bosses and our own moments of being one, to create healthier, more productive workplaces?
This is the Work Well podcast series. Hi, I'm Jen Fisher and today I'm thrilled to be talking with Mita Malick. She's a Wall Street Journal and USA today bestselling author, workplace strategist and corporate change maker with a track record of transforming businesses. Her latest book, the Devil Emails at Midnight.
What Good [00:01:00] Leaders Can Learn From Bad Bosses. Reveals the 13 types of bad bosses and how we can learn from their toxic behaviors to become better leaders ourselves. MI A has an extensive career in marketing and diversity and inclusion at companies like Unilever Carta. Pfizer, Avon and Johnson and Johnson.
She's a LinkedIn Top Voice contributor to Harvard Business Review and was the co-host of the Brown Table Talk podcast. Through her work, she's passionate about fixing what's broken at work and ensuring people are recognized and valued for their contributions.
Mita, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. I've been really looking forward to this conversation. Me too. So I'm gonna dive right in because your new book, like Brand Spanking new, um, just out has such a provocative title. I love it. [00:02:00] The Devil Emails at midnight. So tell me, what's the story behind the title?
What does it represent about leadership and toxic leadership?
Mita: So the story behind the title actually starts with my mother's home. A few years ago flooded and destroyed, and it was a very cold New England Day. A pipe burst, neurotic. It went through the house. The house is soaked. We're in there trying to save things.
Anyone who's had house trauma, a fire. Water. Wow. So I'm in my childhood bedroom. I find a Spelling Beast certificate from like the third grade. I find like writings and notebooks. I find. I was the proud editor in chief of the fifth grade elementary school newspaper. Like all these things we hold onto. And was that foreshadowing of you becoming this world famous author now?
Oh gosh. I hope. I always wanted to. My mom said ever since I was little, I. Could pick up a crayon and wanted to write, you know, it's just something I always wanted to do. And so I found [00:03:00] notebooks 'cause I still love a good notebook. If you see me in person, you'll see me with a notebook. And I found a notebook from my twenties that I had held onto and it had a list of my bad bosses with nicknames and memories and things they had done and said, and I had this mean girls.
Burn book moment where I thought, huh, what if I'm in someone's notebook? Like I've been the person who has contributed to the literature in the marketplace. I've talked about how to survive a toxic boss, how to survive a toxic workplace. It's the number one DM I get from people. Someone sends me a really painful, heartbreaking story of something they're enduring at work.
Usually it's the boss that's doing something to them. And then they say to me, what should I do? And I thought to myself, well, what if I looked in the mirror and I was that person and I've been a bad boss as chances are so of you. So that was the genesis of the book. The devil emails at midnight. What good leaders can learn from bad bosses.
The very first chapter opens with the boss who was the [00:04:00] devil who emailed at midnight, who never had time for me. I was like, Jen, the golden retriever chasing around. In the office trying to get attention from her. I just wanted to be near her, to work with her, to have her say hi. Hello. I even chased her into the parking lot one time, like she just never had time for me, except between the hours of 10:00 PM and 2:00 AM when she would dump out her inbox.
Can you help me pay this? Vendor, can you help with this proposal due on Friday? Can you pull the data for this deck? And that is the biggest complaint in any relationship, isn't it? That you don't have enough time for me. And so that was really the genesis and how I started the book and the title of the book.
Jen Fisher: Yeah, I mean, so much of that resonates, I think, starting with kind of house trauma being, uh, living in Miami, um, and living through Hurricane Andrew. That's much, many, many years ago where, where we lost our home. So that story certainly resonated with me of, yeah. Of, you know, [00:05:00] just going through your childhood possessions and kind of what that feels like, but how you turned that story into, you know, something that you.
Created today. And also the reflection of looking in the mirror and saying. Have I been that person? Because I think you're right, and to some degree we all have been that person and potentially we all have moments of continuing to be that person. None of us are are perfect leaders. It's just, you know, how self-aware are we in that moment of the behavior being rather toxic?
And what do you do about it after you recognize it? Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So, so you talked about these 13 different types of bad bosses, and I won't make you go through all of them. And then you also said like, we just we're just talking about kind of, you're honest about the times when you were a bad boss.
So how did you turn that into lessons for others? What does that look like?
Mita: I have [00:06:00] 13 bosses I'm sure will go through me in a bit. Out of those 13, out of the 12 remaining, three of them had a really devastating impact on my mental health. I'll talk about the sheriff first. The sheriff was, I, by the way, nickname all my bad bosses.
I do that, and I've done that throughout my career in life. And I think that's a way to create emotional distance and space from someone who is hurting and harming you in some way. And then it becomes funny, like a joke, right? And so the sheriff was a very well liked, bully, politically savvy. He knew how to really connect with people and remember details about their lives and.
Just people liked him and he had, as I said, a network of deputies who sort of kept him apprised as to what was happening in the office. And this is a time when I had entered this [00:07:00] company, postgraduate school. I had decided to reclaim my full name, which is Maita Mallek, and I decided that it had been such a source of anxiety and shame and pride.
Enjoy it For me, I wanted to reclaim it so I entered the workplace. Even though a career counselor had told me, don't do it. You're not gonna get callbacks. Just go back to mea. I start this company as Mother Malik, and I'll never forget it was my Achilles heel. He found it and he didn't wanna learn how to pronounce my full name.
He didn't want to learn how to say mea, and he decided he would rename me, Mohammed. What? And he decided to call me Mohammed. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was like, Mohammed, go get the sales samples. Mohammed, the agency's here. Mohammed, are you coming to lunch? Over and over again. And I'm embarrassed to say that I, and I still cringe and there's still shame that I responded to a name that wasn't mine for far too long.
Yeah. And I'll never forget the moment where I had the courage to say to him in private, you can just call me Mita. [00:08:00] And he is like, it's so funny, Mohammed, you're taking it so seriously. Like it's just a joke. And so you asked me what I learned from that is that. You know what still haunts me to this day is where were his peers and his boss?
Where were the people who saw this happening and said nothing? Yeah, and it reminds me of the New York City subway. When you see something, say something, it's never too late to intervene. And I'm tired of the conversation of like, what would you have done differently then? 'cause I just told you what I did, and power and privilege is real in the workplace and I want us to be looking out for each other, especially if you have some level of power, seniority, some way that you can help someone else out.
We spend way too much time at work not to be doing this, and it was a crippling experience. I'm really proud of Meta Mallek. I'm proud of. Everything. You know, she's become, I've become, and I wonder if I hadn't had that experience, if I'd be joining you today on your show as Alec. It probably still happens
Jen Fisher: [00:09:00] today too, or it definitely still happens today.
Mita: It still happening in our workplaces and I think we're living in a time and a place, and I'll just say in an administration, which is emboldening people, in some ways people are. Loudly and proudly saying and doing things that maybe they would do quietly, whether that's antisemitism, Islamophobia, xenophobia, anti L-G-B-T-Q sentiment.
I mean, I, you know, so much hate and hurt that's happening mm-hmm. For communities around the world and I can't even, we wouldn't have even enough time to go into it. And so I think somehow it's been become acceptable to otherwise people Yeah. And almost disguise it as a joke. I find that it's becoming more acceptable.
Jen Fisher: Yeah. I, I'd love for you if you're comfortable to, to talk a little bit because I just think this resonates with so many people, certainly me, about, um, the, the [00:10:00] shame associated with, with, with kind of letting that happen. Right. I, I, I can think of experiences in my own career where I look back now and I'm like.
Wow, why did I let that go on for so long? Why didn't I say something? Why didn't somebody else say something? And we know how painful and devastating shame could be. And I think a lot of times people carry this shame when you know, yes. Could you have said something sooner? Should you have said something sooner?
But, but those power dynamics are. That's real. Um, and I, I don't think that, you know, if you haven't been through it, you don't understand it. So if you feel comfortable talking about it, I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.
Mita: Oh, I'll talk about anything with you, Jen. So we'll go there. Nothing's off limit for our conversation.
Oh gosh. You know the shame. I'm still, I'm sitting here talking to you about this uncomfortable. There's still shame and I still cringe and [00:11:00] I'm still embarrassed. And I know there's people who say, well, you let this one person take all this power from you. You should have taken your name back. Like all kinds of things that people are thinking.
But what I would say is a lot of it comes back to my upbringing and. I'm the proud daughter of Indian immigrant parents. I was born and raised in the US with my younger brother, and my parents sacrificed everything. My dad was from a family of 10, my mom from a family of nine. They moved here and they knew no one, they had no community.
They were in survival mode. And this is, many people can relate to this, whether you're child of immigrant parents or not. We carry that trauma with us into our careers. And so I was in survival mode in my career, even though I didn't need to be in survival mode. But this idea that you would never let go of the, the, that once every two week paycheck and the big fancy brand name and everything it took to get this job that you are going to suffer through, which some people might say is a low level [00:12:00] microaggression, I say.
Names were given to us by someone who had big hopes and dreams for us. Right. Let that sit in. That's who ga, someone named you. And so think about the promise of what your life is to be. And someone can't respect you by saying your name correctly, not even saying it correctly, just renaming you because they have the, yeah.
They feel they have the power to do so. And so there's a lot of shame in that because I think, you know, I go back, should I have said something? Should I have done something? I'm very, very different person today than I was then. I was a junior marketer. What was I gonna do? Right. And I even spoke up and was, it was dismissed.
It's funny. Yeah. Just, just accept it.
Jen Fisher: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So tell me about, give me one other, um, one other story around your, your bad bosses.
Mita: I'll do Medusa.
Jen Fisher: You're liking the names. I know Medusa. I am, I am. It, it, it's, this is the [00:13:00] marketer. Marketer in you coming up. Oh, I love that. Yeah.
Yeah, it
Mita: is. I so Medusa. So up until this point in my career. I had never had anyone yell or scream at me, not my parents, not my brother, not my husband. I didn't tolerate that in friendships. And here I am in the workplace. Jen, this woman is screaming, yelling, throwing tantrums. She publicly and privately humiliates.
She's an equal opportunity bully. She goes after everybody. She throws pens. She threw a Chanel shoe at a colleague. True story. Missed her head. And I was just like, I was just sort of, uh, dumbfounded, like, how can this happen? Like, how does someone, how is someone like this? You, you still are, I think. Yeah, I am.
Because I go back, as you know, every time we talk, we talk about these things. I'm like, imagining it in my head. I know you're living
Jen Fisher: it. Yeah.
Mita: And, and listen. I have on purpose change details times, places. I don't want people to be shame name or blamed. In this book, I wanna be in, [00:14:00] inspire people to do better and be better.
What I would say is it's really interesting how fear, I believe, drives short-term business results. I am and of one like what happened to me. I was scared. I showed up at work every day, scared and that. Drove me to work really hard and smart because I wanted to just not be in her way, in her line of sight.
I thought you could outwork the bully. If I just keep working smart and hard and achieve everything, she's gonna leave me alone. It didn't matter. And so then what starts to happen? You start to get tired. Being scared all the time is tiring, right? Yeah. Think about like when, very tiring, when you're scared.
And I worked on this with my counselor once, it's like, you know. The feeling if you have a bear coming up to you all the time. All the time. Yes. All the time. Not just once, but once. Right, right. I'm in New Jersey and you hear these bear sightings and all sorts of things happening, and [00:15:00] you're like, oh my God, what would I do if a bear was on my porch?
And I'm sitting there? But that's like imagine every day at work you feel that way. That's, you can't, it's the adrenaline rush. It's exhausting. And so then you start to think, I'm just gonna go under the radar. I'm just not gonna do my best work 'cause it doesn't matter what I do. And then you start to just become disengaged from the work.
And I think it's like the candle, right? The light starts to flicker. It's starting to flicker out and heading towards burnout. 'cause you're just like, I don't, what am I even doing here? And. I and, and what I find in these moments is like the downward spiral starts for me. 'cause what you don't realize is your confidence.
You're losing pieces of yourself every single day. Yeah. And then people are like, well, I don't understand why you're tolerating that. Like, why don't you just quit and resign? But then it's like. Well, this is an amazing company and brand name. It might be a dumpster fire inside, but externally, everyone's like, wow, I can't believe you've worked there.
And then it's like, but I've lost who I am. Like I don't [00:16:00] have no sense of confidence. Like I can't even like interview. Yeah. And so I think that's the conversation we don't have. 'cause people are like, well just get out or leave or resign or take a sabbatical, or take a leave of absence. And you're like, it's not that easy.
Not that easy. It's
Jen Fisher: not that easy. I mean, if you're, if you're burnt out and you have been in a, I mean, it's a toxic relationship. It might be a toxic workplace relationship, but yeah, you don't have the, I mean the, the last thing that you have the energy or confidence to do is. Leave and show up and say, Hey, world, I'm here.
Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't work that way, you know, I think, and, and I've been in one of those relationship support too. And, and as if I think about, and I wrote about this and my forthcoming book as well, is, so, you know, my behavior, yay. So my behavior kind of turned to. Just agreeing with everything. Yes, yes, you're right.
Yes. You know, like kind of, you know, doing, doing what I could do to [00:17:00] kind of keep the bear at bay, right. And making sure that everything I did was just kind of maintaining the status quo so this person wouldn't explode. Yeah,
Mita: yeah,
Jen Fisher: yeah. You know, so you, you just become this peacemaker, if you will, right?
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So the subtitle of your book, and you talk about this extensively, you mentioned that bad bosses aren't born, they're made. So talk to me about what you mean by that and how does this understanding help us really address these toxic workplace behaviors? Mm-hmm.
Mita: I think there are three moments when bad boss behavior shows up.
And this is just from my own experience and what I've studied for the book. Number one, it is something's happening in the external marketplace. We're sitting in the US right now. Tariffs continue to be a big conversation and the impact to the business. Your competitor has come out with an innovation that was unexpected and is doing gangbusters.
A merger and acquisition [00:18:00] failed that no one wants to talk about at work, right? So all these things are causing stress. Bad boss behavior shows up. Number two, we talk about, in my house, poo poo trickles down. I report into a bad boss and I am now absorbing their behaviors. Right. I am. I am either taking that on, they're role modeling for me.
I don't know any better. That's what I'm doing. And number three, something cataclysmic happens in our personal lives. You just talked about losing your home. I'm so sorry. Loss of a loved one, miscarriage, divorce, breakup, move. Someone's sick. You're sick. I mean, so many things happening. And then also how interconnected we are as a world someone's, something's happening to my community in another place, and it's weighing on my mind and we don't realize that.
Uh, grief and these emotions, we can bury them, but they're gonna show up and explode if we don't work through them. And so that is also when we show up at work. And I think the closest analogy is the pandemic. When so many of [00:19:00] us lost loved ones, many of us went through what was happening together in the isolation and loneliness, and there was this loss of control.
Yeah, in our personal lives. But then guess what? If you were a boss, you could still find that control at work. You could control your team. It was the rise of the helicopter manager, right? It's like, yeah, it's, it's the reason
Jen Fisher: why so many of us chose to overwork during that time, right? Because it was the only thing we could control,
Mita: right?
And it's like that boss, I'll never forget, I'm in an an hour meeting. You're paying attention. There's an email, a slack. A audio message, a FaceTime missed call, you're like, what? What is going on? You're like, I will get back to you. I'm actually like, you know, doing something for work. But it's that, as you know, monitoring and over communicating and constant feeling, constantly feeling like you're on watch and on guard, and so those are the moments that I think are important to think about.
Jen Fisher: And, and I, I think, you know, especially when you're talking about the things that are [00:20:00] happening in our personal lives and how that shows up and trickles into the workplace, because so many people, it blows my mind that in 2025, there's still so many people that don't feel the safety or the permission to say, I, I'm dealing with something.
You know, heavy personally, I either need some time off or your grace, um, you know, because this is, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm dealing with something hard and there's so many people that still don't feel like they can do that.
Mita: I mean, I was one of those people, I'm number 13 and the devil who emails at midnight.
I lost my dad suddenly in 2017 with one phone call from my mother. My life was changed forever, and anyone who's listening who's been on a grief journey, you know this, and it's just, the pain is so much that sometimes you just try to bury it. Yeah, and I remember working for this company and I think officially on the books, they had three days bereavement leave and yeah.
[00:21:00] My team ended up rallying around me. I got three weeks. I was really lucky. That's not always the case, which is why I talked about in the double emails at midnight, the case for bereavement leave and why it's important. But I remember Jen coming back to the office and my then boss saying to me, oh good.
You got your mojo back. You're back to yourself. And so it was very clear to me that I was in an environment where no one wanted to see a sad meet. I shouldn't be like crying or talking about my feelings, and I just needed to feel like I had just gotten over the flu. And we don't talk enough about grief in our homes and our communities at all.
At certainly at all. So when you say like if I went back to that time and I thought. What I had wish I had done differently was just to be more vulnerable and to tell my team what I was going through, but also in this environment, people almost didn't want me to, and I'll never forget, I mean, I was the devil who emailed him midnight.
I was micromanaging, I was disengaged. I lost my [00:22:00] temper. I did all these things because I was missing my dad desperately. But if I had said. To anyone who I was working with, you know, it's my dad's birthday tomorrow, I need to take it off. Uh, father's Day coming up, it's the first Father's Day without him.
Um, it's my parents' wedding anniversary coming up. I had been able to express these things so that people knew that I was still hurting and grieving. That would've made such a difference. And I'll tell you now, it's so, I mean hard to think about gifts from losing my dad, but it's interesting that no matter where I am, if someone has lost a parent, you're just immediately bonded.
Right? Yeah. Like even in the workplace, like someone, I don't know. I find out someone has just come back, lost their mother. I'm like emailing and reaching out. I've never even met this person. They might be in another division like, but I'm like, I just want you to know I'm here. Like I know I don't know you, but I lost my dad and here's my story.
And so that, that makes a difference.
Jen Fisher: Yeah. Well, I, sorry about your dad. I [00:23:00] lost my dad too, so I feel like we're immediately bonded. Yeah, of course. On this. And so many, and so many other topics. Um, you know, in so many parallels, because I talk about the bereavement leave also in my book. Um, what I love about this and what I always say is, you know, number one, there's just a, a fundamental.
Misunderstanding on so many levels about grief, especially in, in our, our Western cultures. It's a very human phenomenon, and, and it does change the way that we behave and the way that we show up. And we can't just, and, and by the way. It still changes the way that I behave and the way that I show up and it's, you know, many years later, right?
Yes. But like you said, around those anniversaries and birthdays and those times where, you know, you really just wish that your loved one was around because you wanna ask 'em a question. And you can't. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, [00:24:00] yeah. All right, so there, there's a lot in here. Let's talk about the midnight email phenomenon.
Oh,
Mita: let's do that. We'll move to a lighter, I don't know, a lighter topic. Yes, yes. So
Jen Fisher: what is it about? Us What is it about some leaders that feel like, you know, proving our dedication is by, you know, working and expecting others to work around the clock?
Mita: I just don't understand how we've landed in a time and a place where we've normalized emailing at midnight.
It is normalized, I feel like, and for me to say, I'm not gonna be ashamed to say I'm asleep at midnight. Mm-hmm. Like, I'm asleep at midnight. I am not. A bot, I am a human being and in the race to embrace ai, I need to differentiate myself. And that's leaning in on being human. And you would agree with this, like what's the foundation of good leadership Is.
Being a healthy leader and taking [00:25:00] care of yourself. Like the things that we're embarrassed to say that I'm getting a good night's sleep, I exercise, I eat right, I drink, and I know you
Jen Fisher: say this too, but a, you know, a, a bad boss behavior for me definitely comes out when I'm sleep deprived. Mo like, you just don't even wanna be around me when I'm sleep.
Mita: Yeah, absolutely. And so I think that there, you know, interestingly enough, there's this, this title and this topic. Is evoking a lot of emotions extreme from people. There are some people like you who will say and agree, yes, this is anti hessle culture. This is the conversation we need to have. And then there are other leaders who aren't happy about it because it's like, well, we have revenue goals to hit.
This is what we need to be doing. And here's, here's what I would offer, is that I have never been a 9 1 1 operator, an emergency room professional. A crisis counselor. [00:26:00] I've sold lots of consumer product goods and SAS software. That's what I've done. Nothing I've done is life or death. And so if you consistently operate where you are acting like everything is urgent and needs to go out at midnight, what is actually urgent and what is a priority?
And that is the constant fire alarm that's going off in our workplaces. And you know, the other thing people will say is, I don't have time for my team. I don't have time during the day. And I'm sure you've seen the Microsoft study that talks about, what is it close to a third of people are logging in after 8:00 PM.
And so my, if you get anything from the conversation today is like, have the courage to cancel the meeting, right? Like, go and look at your calendar. Like I look at my wardrobe, get rid of things you're not using. Like there are so many, you know, everyone's been in this meeting where we all show up and it's like banter, banter, banter.
And then you're like, oh, AM is on vacation and she's the decision maker, or, oh, this project was canceled, or, oh, and it's like, no, have the courage to get these meetings off your [00:27:00] calendar so that you can actually be doing. Work at work, like deep work. Yeah. You can be meeting and making connections and coaching your team, and that's the biggest complaint is that people will say, well, I don't have time during the day, or it's the, let's embrace hustle culture.
We need to work until we scale this to a unicorn. Like that's what we're doing.
Jen Fisher: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think going back to what we were talking about previously, you know, when you were younger in your career and you have aspirations Sure. To be the manager or the leader one day. The behavior that you're being taught that's expected here to move up in our organization.
If your leader is the one that's emailing at midnight, you're also telling people like, this is, this is what it takes to be successful.
Mita: This is what it takes. This is what it takes. Yeah. And I'm not saying that there aren't moments. Where we're gonna grind over a weekend 'cause we have something due for a customer on Monday.
I'm not saying that there [00:28:00] aren't moments where people are gonna go above and beyond and Oh, by the way, Jen, every time I've loved my job, I've gone above and beyond. You don't have to ask me. Yeah. But I'm saying, which is what people just don't get. Like that's the biggest retention tool. Treat people with respect and value them and they'll just stay and go above and beyond.
Like, wow, what a breakthrough concept. But what I would say is that if you operate that way. Just on a consistent basis, that's not sustainable. Right. And that's, that's what we're trying to have this conversation about. It's not that, like, I'm not saying, yeah, you shouldn't go above and beyond to win that deal or make sure the customer's happy.
I'm just saying it's not, people are just not gonna be able to sustain that level of performance.
Jen Fisher: Yeah. I mean, if you're in constant fire drill mode, yes. First of all, you don't know how to differentiate between what's really an emergency and what's not. Yes. Yeah. Um, and also when there is a quote unquote emergency or the need to go above and [00:29:00] beyond you, you people probably won't have the energy to do it because they've been operating in crisis mode all along without, perhaps, without even realizing it.
Mita: It's funny that you bring that up. 'cause one of my other bosses, uh, bad bosses that I profile in the book is called The White Rabbit After Alice in Wonderland. For anyone who knows that childhood story, and it's exactly what you said, she was creating fake fire drills and emergencies for everything. And I, I talk about in the devil emails at midnight, there's this moment, exactly what you said.
There's actually something that's urgent. Something. Yeah. The CEO needs by five o'clock on Friday and like nobody shows up to do it. Yeah. 'cause everyone's just like, it's like the, the girl, the boy, the person who cried wolf, you're like, cried. Wow. Feel this is serious. 'cause if everything is urgent, nothing's, nothing's urgent.
Jen Fisher: Yeah. Yeah. So I, there, there were a bunch of campaigns that I've run historically. One was like getting rid of the reply to all button. The [00:30:00] other one was getting rid of the, you know, the, the exclamation mark that like marks everything urgent. Oh, I love that.
Mita: You mean reply all, you mean cover your, uh, butt.
That's what you meant? Yeah. Yeah. Well that's good. It's
Jen Fisher: like reply all and then, you know, nobody replies or everybody replies and says thanks, you know? So I don't know if you can hear my dog. But she loves to make an appearance every single time I want. I love that. Well, she's excited about the
Mita: reply all campaign.
She's excited about the reply all. I'm excited. Bring it back. That's great.
Jen Fisher: So let's talk about, you know, 'cause you've brought this up, I've brought this up and it is a, you know, a key part of your book is you being that bad boss. Yes. Something that a lot of leaders I don't think are willing to own up to.
So talk to me about kind of your own realization about being a bad boss, kind of what that taught you about leadership and about self-awareness. [00:31:00] And then I would say. Also, and this is a, a long, so I'm happy to repeat it 'cause I'm asking you a lot of things in one question. No problem. How, how do we recognize when we're being that toxic boss?
Because I think that sometimes it's hard to see that in ourselves.
Mita: Yeah. So the question you're asking that I am getting asked a lot is, how do I know if I'm a bad boss? That question is likely not a question that the worst of the worst. The baddest of the bad bosses who have made the headlines, who have wreaked havoc on their companies who don't need.
An executive coach, they need therapy. Those people are not asking that question. So it's for the rest of us. And I think, honestly, we all know when we've behaved badly, most of us. But what that requires is self-reflection, sitting in silence and pausing. And for me, because writing has always been a tool I fell back on, particularly when I lost my father and I was grieving, and I decided to start career journaling and documenting things that I was.
[00:32:00] Seeing, like how was I reacting? Was I disengaged? Was I angry? Was I emotional when somebody gave me something late that wasn't late at all, or they pulled the wrong data, or they provided a contradicting view? Why was I acting this way? And I needed to sort of put together all the facts and see patterns emerging on how I could look at my behavior.
And that takes self-reflection and time and wanting to think about. What is it? And most of us know, you know, my toxic bad behavior is micromanaging. I know that about myself for all kinds of reasons, which would be another podcast episode. But it is like, I know why I do it, but I know it also happens in the moments we talked about those, the those three stressors.
So self-reflection, pausing, journaling, doing all that, and. Really looking in the mirror to say it's very easy to call someone a Disney villain or a Marvel character. And yes, I've done that, but it's a lot harder to look in the mirror and say we're actually the ones who's holding our team back from reaching their potential.
So I think there's that first piece. [00:33:00] The second piece is. You look for the signals in yourself, but also look for them in others. And during the time that I had lost my father, one of the top performers on my team, it was like a few months, several months afterwards left, she resigned. And I'll never forget, I got the exit interview notes from hr.
It said she, I was absent. I wasn't a coach anymore. She didn't see any career progression or development opportunities. And honestly it was a gift. It was like in writing. I read it and listen, I hope companies are having exit interviews. I hope they're not canceled. Yeah. 'cause if people are giving you the truth, there it is.
So it's like, watch for the signs. Do people seem anxious around you? Do they, do they talk less? Are they disengaged? Are you the last to know about business issues coming up? Like what are people not telling you? What are they afraid to tell you? That's a signal. And then the third for me is I try to ask for coaching and I try not to use the word feedback, and I'll tell you why.
I think sometimes when we say feedback in the [00:34:00] workplace and there's power dynamics involved, it could feel like right or wrong, or it can feel like really heavy. And I'll never forget one of the bosses I used to work for. And he would do this at the end of my performance review, which I thought was weird.
He'd say, Mita, tell me what you think I should be doing better. Like, what should I be working on? And the first time I hate to say this, I fell for it, which is awful that I'm saying this. And I, and I told him with kindness, and you know, being kind and clear is Brene Brown says, and he lost it. He lost his mind.
He was defensive, he was angry. And I was like, okay, I'm never doing that again. And so when I ask for coaching now. And let's say you worked for me and we're having coffee on Friday. I might approach it this way. I would put something in writing to say, Jen, I'm so excited to meet you for coffee on Friday.
I know we're gonna be talking about this project. I also wanted to let you know I'm thinking about my own career development and I'm working on wanting to delegate things faster. To individuals when we kick off projects, and also trying to [00:35:00] coach people through mistakes rather than redo them for them.
I'd love your coaching on this. Look forward to Friday, and so that does a few things. Number one, it's in writing so you have time to process it. Number two, I'm using the word coaching, which is really interesting and that is how I try to think about leadership, like be in service of others. And then three, I'm being vulnerable.
Like I'm so tired of a boss asking me like, what do you think I should be doing? What do you think you should be doing? Right? So like lead with it. Like at least tell them what you should be doing. And when we meet, you might say, you know, Mita, I actually thank you so much for this invitation. Like I don't think that's what you need to be working on.
I think this is the thing you need to be working on. And so I might say to you in that moment. Jen, thanks so much. I'm gonna process that. I appreciate it. I'm gonna come back to you and think about how I will action that feedback and context matters. Situation matters. Sometimes the feedback isn't fair or isn't valid, and it's okay if you decide not to actually implement it.
Yeah. What you wanna do is thank the person and let them know what you might [00:36:00] wanna do with it and circle back.
Jen Fisher: Yeah. I love that. And I, you know, one of the things that I think comes up in coaching conversations for me quite a bit is, is this notion of feedback. You know, feedback is feedback. You ultimately get to decide what to do with it.
Yeah, yeah. Um, and you know, you get to decide, you know, is it. Is it relevant? Is it real? And that doesn't mean that, you know, you kick back all feedback and are in complete denial. Yeah. If, if that's the case, then you know, you're not, you're, you're probably not, uh, really listening to the feedback. 'cause, you know, some feedback is, is really well intentioned and other feedback isn't, or just doesn't have a lot of thought behind it.
Mita: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
Jen Fisher: So I have a question personally on, you know, kind of this idea of. Us recognizing and admitting when we were a bad boss. How do we forgive ourselves for the times when we're bad bosses, [00:37:00] but also still holding ourselves accountable, right? Mm-hmm. So like, I don't wanna get stuck, um, but I also wanna make sure that I don't fall back into those patterns that got me there.
Mita: I keep thinking I wanna be who I needed when I was younger in the workplace. So yeah, I can, you know, we've all made mistakes and I can sit and think about. How I was a crappy boss and I was, but I can then think about, okay, I'm gonna use that energy and try to be better and do better in the workplace.
And that it's really interesting. It is a continuum. It's like you go from being a bad boss to a good leader, to a good leader, to a bad boss, to a good leader. It's not permanent, the state, right? And so there's always movement in that. And it's really interesting, you know, someone who is a bad boss for me may be a great, good leader for you.
Right, right. Um, context matters, situation matters. Time matters. I might be in a place in my career where I don't need that much micromanagement, but this boss might be micromanaging [00:38:00] me a lot. And that same boss for you, you're a new hire, you just graduated from college. You're like, wow, I want this much coaching, training, and handholding.
And so that also matters like as leaders. I mean, it's such a privilege and an honor and a responsibility. To be able to help grow other people's careers and create other leaders. And part of that is you have to flex your style a bit. Yeah. And know who you're working with. That doesn't mean that I become you and you become me, but it's like we meet in the middle to see how we can build the best working relationship we can.
Jen Fisher: I love that. I mean, that's like, that's true with any relationship in your life, right? Like not every single person's gonna be your friend or should be your friend. You know? Every time when I was a kid and I would tell my mom, oh, well that person doesn't like me, and she would be like, well, do you like them, mom?
I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah. She was kind of like, but you know, like, you're not gonna like everybody and everybody's not gonna like you. You need to kind of also think about, you know, you know, just [00:39:00] because you're not right for this person doesn't mean they're not right for somebody else. Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. So you mentioned, um, bosses who rule with fear. Mm-hmm. Um, and this is, I think primarily done or the belief is that ruling with fear drives hardcore business results. So talk to me about fear-based leadership and what. Actually happens to productivity in mental health in the workplace.
Mita: So when we were talking about Medusa earlier, who just led with so much fear and she, you know, for me, drove business results outta me short term.
But as we talked about, I was like, I was tired of being scared. Right. It's like the bear analogy, like every day there's like a bear standing in front of you and you're like, fight or flight. Right. And. What leaders don't realize is they'll be like, oh yes, fear drives short-term results. I'm gonna say that it's true.
It does. It [00:40:00] doesn't drive long-term results because guess what? What's gonna happen is it's gonna take you two and a half times my salary to replace me. Not, not to mention the time and the loss of productivity, right? So there's me who's being driven with fear. Driving short-term results. And then there's the time where I start to become disengaged in my productivity tanks.
Now I'm either gonna then leave on my own or you're gonna label me a poor performer, put me on a performance improvement plan, and I'm out. So there's that period that could last. Several months, right? Six months longer. And then you've gotta go find somebody to replace me. And we all know what that process is like, either because we've been interviewing or because we've been a hiring manager.
And then the onboarding and training. And when I go back to that example of Medusa, she at the time managed a team of 12 people. In this division of this large company, everybody, Jen, those 12 people left, they then moved her to [00:41:00] another team, which I was ball and told I didn't have a choice. I went and had to work on this other team of 12.
I was one of the 12. And guess what happened? They all left year and a half. All their people are gone. And you're like, wow. So like 24 people, give or take. Like the companies had to replace and you know, it's so fascinating. Then it's like becomes recruiting's problem recruiting, can't fill in the seats fast enough and it's like, well you've gotta find me great talent.
And you're like, people talk. You don't think that When I was working at this company, somebody sent me a LinkedIn DM and said, I worked for this person. Good luck. I'm sorry. Yeah, they did. And so you're like, people talk and then you keep seeing the same posting on LinkedIn over and over again. You're like, what's going on here?
Like, this is a revolving door. I don't know if I wanna be at this company. And so that's what I really hope leaders take away, is that it's a, driving with fear as a recipe in the law is a disaster. Must be for disaster in the long term.
Jen Fisher: [00:42:00] Also something needs to be said and done for. I think too often we allow these leaders that rule with fear to.
Continue to exist within an organization. Yes. So in your example, you know, she led one team and all the people left. And so what, what did they do? They moved her to another team. And so I'm not suggesting fire her outright, but I'm suggesting that you also need to get to root cause and start to give her coaching, accountability, development, accountability.
Yeah. You know, like, okay, you know, we, we are going to give you. Leadership training And hold you accountable? Yes. And make sure that we're not repeating these behaviors. 'cause I think at a larger organizational level, when you make that Okay. You make it. Okay.
Mita: You do. And listen, there's that famous quote.
Your culture becomes defined by the worst behavior you tolerate.
Jen Fisher: Yeah. Yeah. That's culture. And [00:43:00] so moving somebody to ano to lead another team doesn't solve the problem. It makes, makes the problem worse. So, um, maybe it makes somebody else's problem, but it still makes the problem worse. Okay. So we're coming to the end of our discussion here, but I feel like I still have so many more questions.
Oh my god. I flew by. I'll have to come back. This is amazing. You'll. They have to come back. What is, what is, I guess I wanna close with, what is one immediate action people can take tomorrow to avoid becoming kind of that toxic boss, that boss that emails at midnight? And what, for you, like what's the most important lesson you want people to take away from your new book?
Mita: I want us to think about how we could be the person contributing negatively to our workplace. And I'm not talking about in extremes. Maybe it's in extremes. I hope that's not the situation. But if you rewind and listen to our conversation and how to identify if you're a bad boss, I hope everyone thinks about one thing that [00:44:00] they wanna work on differently.
And to share with someone at work, a peer, a team member, a direct report, your own boss, and say, here's the thing I wanna work on and I wanna have you. Hold me accountable to it. Imagine if we all did that and we showed up to our workplaces what a different place it would be to work. And when you do that, you create a culture where people want to talk about the hard things and the things they wanna work on.
And I'm not talking about it becomes a therapy session, I'm just saying that. We talked about grief and loss. It's okay to say that I'm missing my dad today. It doesn't mean I'm gonna ask for a two hour therapy session. I just wanna say that if you see that I seem quieter today or that I'm not asking as many questions, and I hope more of us can lead that way, and it takes courage.
It's not easy, but I hope we have more courage and humility in our workplaces.
Jen Fisher: Okay. I hope that too, and I can't think of a better idea or concept that we could put into action starting right away. So Mita, thank you so much for being on the [00:45:00] show today and for all of your wisdom, and I can't wait for this work and your new book to be out into the world.
Mita: Thank you so much. I hope people can find it on Amazon. Barnes and Noble is your local independent bookstore. Thank you, Jen. Take care.
Jen Fisher: I am so grateful Mita could be with us today to help us understand how we can learn from bad boss experiences to become better leaders ourselves. Her insights on recognizing and avoiding toxic leadership behaviors give us practical tools for creating healthier, more supportive workplaces. Thank you to our producer and our listeners.
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