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Ask A Kansan is a podcast where we're amplifying, connecting and uncovering stories across Kansas.
Every week, Gus and Sydney sit down with the people who actually make this state run — museum directors and ranchers, founders and historians, zookeepers and woodcarvers. From Kansas City to Kinsley, WaKeeney to Wichita, we go where the story is.
You'll leave each episode knowing something you didn't about the state we call home. It's not a history lecture and it's not a business show. It's a real conversation with a Kansan worth knowing.
New episodes weekly. askakansan.com
Ep74
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Fast Food Kindness
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[00:00:00]
Gus Applequist: So normally for a cold open we try to do something funny. I'm, I'm gonna change it up just slightly.
Sydney Collins: Oh. '
Gus Applequist: Cause I, I had a really great interaction yesterday. So I'm a f- I, I frequent fast food establishments.
Sydney Collins: Yes you do.
Gus Applequist: I don't think this is a secret amongst the people.
Sydney Collins: He's an old man. He actually goes into the fast food
establishment-
and eats.
Gus Applequist: It's true. So um, I'll, I'll, I'll give these people some privacy and not reveal which one it was here in Salina, but um, I went in one yesterday and, and there is a person who works there, who is deaf, and I, I knew that. but, but I went in and I stood there, you know, waiting for a little bit, and, this woman, approached me from behind the counter and, and she handed me a notebook, and it's not the person who, who I know is deaf who works there.
It's another person. And, and she gestured at the menu and then like- did this motion. And so like I, I wrote my order down, and then [00:01:00] she asked the normal questions that you always g- you know- for here or to go, you know, is that credit? Whatever. But she did it all through writing. And, and I was
You know, there's, there's a bit of a line behind me, and so I just kinda like waited for my food and, and just watched to see how she was treated 'cause I was nervous. I was like-
There, there, there are probably some people that would be annoyed by this."
But I was like, my hope in humanity was sort of lifted because every single person l- There was like the momentary confusion of like, "What's hap- oh, oh totally.
We can do this."
And, and I thought that was just really special to see. Like, I think there's a narrative out there that like people with disabilities somehow, you know, they're not good enough to do their job or whatever, and this person was excellent at doing their job. They just needed to do it a little bit differently.
And it was just, it was special. I enjoyed it.
Sydney Collins: I like that. That's a good little story.
Gus Applequist: Thank you.
[00:02:00]
Meet Lara Avery
---
Sydney Collins: Welcome to Ask a Kansan.
Gus Applequist: A podcast amplifying, connecting and uncovering Kansas.
Sydney Collins: So we have... We had a lot of fun today actually, um-
Gus Applequist: we always have fun
Sydney Collins: with this conversation.
We always have fun.
Gus Applequist: But in different ways.
Sydney Collins: But in different ways. And we uncovered a lot of layers of not just our guest but of ourselves today. And I cannot wait to share this with everybody
Gus Applequist: It, it was really fun. And to talk about books, to talk about, writing.
Sydney Collins: Writing.
Gus Applequist: Talking about, Kansas.
Sydney Collins: Yep, and the Kansas Book Festival. Sorry. Our guest today is Lara Avery, uh, she's the executive director of the Kansas Book Festival. So without any further ado, here is our conversation with Lara
Hello, hello
Gus Applequist: Hi, welcome
Sydney Collins: [00:03:00] Come on over
Lara Avery: So good to learn more about y'all from that video.
that-
Sydney Collins: That video is a little old. We need to redo it but we-
Lara Avery: I'm a big Lord of the Rings fan.
Sydney Collins: Well there you go.
Lara Avery: I think you should, I think you should keep that spirit at least.
Sydney Collins: We'll set this kind of like almost like a fist in front of you.
Lara Avery: Okay.
Sydney Collins: You can feel free to touch it and move it, whatever you need to do.
Lara Avery: There we go.
Sydney Collins: There you go.
Lara Avery: Okay. That's comfy.
Sydney Collins: Well, welcome.
Lara Avery: Thank you.
Sydney Collins: Can you introduce yourself for our audience?
Lara Avery: Absolutely. Um, my name is Laura Avery. I am the Executive Director of the Kansas Book Festival. It's still a little weird for me to say that.
It's only been l- like less than a year-
Sydney Collins: Okay ...
Lara Avery: in that title.
Gus Applequist: Congrats. Um, and I'm also an author.
Author Life and Day Jobs
---
Sydney Collins: What were, what were you doing before Kansas Book Festival?
Lara Avery: You know, how many ... Have you talked to a lot of writers?
Sydney Collins: I mean, we have. And a lot of them, but a lot of them have been like historians or-
Lara Avery: Okay.
Okay. Okay ...
Sydney Collins: professors.
Lara Avery: So well okay. Well, I'm, I do a little bit of that. I'm currently, um, a, an adjunct [00:04:00] professor in the English department at Washburn.
Gus Applequist: Okay. Nice.
Lara Avery: But that's in addition to like m- many other gigs. Um-
Gus Applequist: Gotcha.
Sydney Collins: That's fair
Lara Avery: ... so you know- if you talk to any sort of artists or, um, creators, I'm- which I'm sure you do, you're creators yourselves- um, we kinda just have to piecemeal-
a living together-
Sydney Collins: I see that
Lara Avery: ... doing various things. So I worked in admin at a tax firm. I've worked at law firms. I've done some marketing, um, all the while like writing books.
So-
Gus Applequist: Nice
Sydney Collins: ... you're saying it's more research for your book writi-, for your-
Lara Avery: Exactly.
Exactly. I, uh, someday I'm gonna write the great American novel about a tax firm. I, I won't say the name. I won't say the name just in case-
Sydney Collins: Oh goodness
Lara Avery: ... just in
case it
ever happens.
Gus Applequist: That's funny. That's really funny.
Sydney Collins: Oh my goodness.
Romance Books and BookTok
---
Sydney Collins: Uh, well I wanna kind of hit on, I- obviously we're here to talk about the Kansas Book, uh- Yes ... Festival. But, I want to hit kind of on you as person as a whole 'cause you've done some really cool things.
So, um, you mentioned [00:05:00] you're an author. Can you, um, give us kind of- the highlight of what you have authored?
Lara Avery: Oh, sure. Um, I mostly write in the, romance adjacent space.
Sydney Collins: Makes
me excited.
Lara Avery: I mean, we are all so, I, I like romance is having a renaissance right now.
Sydney Collins: Oh It is. It is.
Lara Avery: And I could not be happier about that. Um, not only just for my own, you know, career, but just, uh, like the excitement that grown adults are showing about books.
Sydney Collins: The creation of BookTok.
Lara Avery: Yes exactly. We are, we are trying to embrace that as, as much as possible with the festival. But that's where I r- I write stories about mostly, a combination of like sad and romantic-
and I try to be a little funny. Um, so um, my, my most recent was 2023. I'm working on my, a new one. I, I ha- took a break to have a child but my, my most recent, is The Year of Second Chances. And it's [00:06:00] about a young widow who, um, whose husband sadly died of a terminal disease, but before he died, he set up an email to be sent to her- a year after his death. And, in the email, he's like, "You have to move on, and I signed you up for a dating app." And, and so she has-
Sydney Collins: That's funny
Lara Avery: ... to sort of follow, follow his lead, from beyond. And,- of course, she finds herself, like, opening up and- and having a real romance, but not in the way she expected, so.
Gus Applequist: That's beautiful.
Lara Avery: Thank you.
Sydney Collins: when you 'Cause you've written probably, what, five, four or five books-
Lara Avery: Yes, four under my name- Four ... and then one, um, one was not my idea, so I kind of just-
Sydney Collins: Okay
Lara Avery: ... released it. Uh, that was, uh, Purple Hearts, which was, like, they made a movie out of it, and I wish- Uh-huh
I could claim, like- how well the movie did. I, n- none of it was my idea. I just sort of was hired to write, to write the book. So,
Sydney Collins: Well, that's
still pretty cool.
Lara Avery: It was still awesome. it was great.
Sydney Collins: But how do [00:07:00] you choose kind of your narratives to follow?
Sydney Collins: How, how does that passion go?
Lara Avery: Oh, man, I, I don't, I don't choose them-
which is, which is interesting. I, I am in a, I'm in a c- like, weird relationship with publishing where, which I have had s- different feelings about over my career- but now I really embrace it. So I work for a company called Alloy, and they, what they do is they kind of produce things, and they pr-
they produce TV shows, they produce movies, but they also produce books. And so they come up with kind of a vague idea. When I was early on in my career, they gave it to me really detailed, like straight, like- ..."Here's what you gotta write. Here's chapter one, chapter two, chapter three."
Gus Applequist: Whoa.
Lara Avery: But as
Like, totally it's just like, "You figure out how to get from A to B, B to C-" but we are giving you the points."
Sydney Collins: Interesting. Okay.
Lara Avery: Yes. Um, and then, um, which was a great way to learn how to write.
Sydney Collins: Right.
Lara Avery: I mean, truly, like, the thing that I [00:08:00] handed to them that was supposed to be a novel, the beginning was not a novel. And that's why they were like, "Okay, come back in, and we're gonna teach you how to plot and actually how to do it," and it was, it was a true education. So over the years, now they, we kinda work together- and we like, "What i- what's, what's, hitting right now?" "What, what's exciting?- ... What's popular?
What do we think What kind of story, w- which many writers do with their agents anyway or with their friends or with, you know, their editors or whoever. So it's really just making it m- kind of more official- and having the weight of, uh, them behind me. You know, they've, they've done, like, Gossip Girl, and they did, like, Vampire Diaries.
So, so they kinda ... I trust- their judgment.
And I, and over the years I've also, like, written, like, little side projects which are just for me.
which someday n- I'd h- I'll hope, I hope to, like, get out into the world. But that's, that's how I come up with my ideas is I don't. We kind of just- Now, and now we work together.
[00:09:00] We work together to kinda come up with them.
Kansas Roots and Audiobooks
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Sydney Collins: So I should have probably started with this, but I just g- I got so excited when- Um, uh- Are you,
Lara Avery: you're a reader?
Sydney Collins: Uh, so
Lara Avery: It seems to me.
Sydney Collins: I, I'm a listener, so-
Lara Avery: Oh nice, me too
Sydney Collins: ... I am a huge Audible fan 'cause- uh, I commute a lot, and so that's just my, my gig. But I'm also in a book club, and all we do is, like, romance and all this.
Like- Perfect ... this is his exact dramas or- Perfect ... or genre, and I'm like
Lara Avery: Please give me
more.
Sydney Collins: Okay, so I got real excited. But, um, this is Ask A Kansan. Are you originally from Kansas?- I am ... kind of what's your, uh, what's your background with that?
Lara Avery: Oh, of course,
Sydney Collins: where are you from?
Lara Avery: Let's get back to the Kan- let's get back to the meat-
Sydney Collins: Sorry. I got real excited
Lara Avery: .... of course well, also first I also wanna say Red Fern here in Salina- ... have been a huge supporter of me and so many d- local- ... romance writers. And they have, like, romance events every- Yep. Do you have y-
Sydney Collins: I have not actually- Have you gone? I have three kids and one cooking, so I don't- Okay
that's why listening to books is kind of [00:10:00]
my jam.
Lara Avery: Totally understand. 100%. And Libro FM, you can actually, it's like Audible- but you can support-
Sydney Collins: Oh, really?
Lara Avery: ... Red Fern instead of Amazon.
Lara Avery: Highly recommend.
Sydney Collins: I'ma
have to look at that.
Lara Avery: Totally. I thought of that because I'm al- also a huge audiobook listener.
Is it? I was listening on the way here.
Sydney Collins: Sorry, what's it called?
Lara Avery: It's called Libro-
Sydney Collins: I know we're recording
Lara Avery: dot FM. Libro FM, if you want to sponsor Ask A Kansan Podcast-
Gus Applequist: Hey, you heard it here ...
Lara Avery: then you should.
Sydney Collins: Sorry.
Lara Avery: Um, no, it's really great. Um, and I think, I'm pretty sure Red Fern has that set up.
Um, but you can s- well, you can-
Gus Applequist: They do.
Lara Avery: Okay, good. Okay. You, do you know Libro?
Gus Applequist: I've, I, I must admit that I still have lots of credits on Audible, so I gotta go burn through those.
Lara Avery: You have to work through those.
No judgment. No judgment. Um, I'm from Topeka. I was born and raised in Topeka- Okay
and then I went to Ca- uh, Minnesota for college for Almost, let's see, I think 12 or, 12 or 13 years I was in Minnesota after I graduated and then, um, I [00:11:00] went down to Mississippi for grad school and then I came back to Kansas in 2020.
Sydney Collins: That is a complete- ... 180 from- Oh ... minnesota to- Mississippi. And-
Lara Avery: All the way up and down the Mississippi.
Sydney Collins: Literally.
Gus Applequist: Yep. And what a year to come back to Kansas too.
Lara Avery: I know.
I know, I know. I mean had, I had considered coming back before but when you know the world, uh, changed so drastically- I was like, "I kinda wanna be near my folks." You know? Just make sure that everything's okay and so I didn't want to get too close to them.
Um-
Sydney Collins: I feel that.
Lara Avery: I moved 20 minute, I moved to Lawrence. And they live in Topeka. and then I met my husband who is, lives in Topeka and has to be in Topeka for his job. So here I am like literally 10-minute walk away from - ... my childhood home in Topeka. So, but I love it. I do love it.
How She Became a Writer
---
Sydney Collins: How did your love of writing and reading come about? Has that always just been a thing, or is there something that like you have this specific memory
Lara Avery: [00:12:00] Oh, that's a great question. I've always been a reader. Um, but I would say that my love of writing started by writing journals.
And I don't know h- I think I got the concept from Harriet the Spy. have y- have either of you read it?
Sydney Collins: I haven't read them- For sure ... but I've heard of him.
Lara Avery: Oh, you should read it with your kids. It's such a good, um, book. y- you get your pen out. Somebody's writing it down. I am gonna have so many recs. Um, Harriet the Spy is about a girl who has a notebook and that she keeps in her pocket, and she follows everyone in her neighborhood and kinda spies on them and writes down what's going on. And through that, she kind of, gets into a little bit of trouble, of course. Um, but she also learns about herself and kind of comes of age.
And- I mean, but what I was just fascinated by is just the act of observing and kinda melting into the wall- and, and I started keeping a, keeping a journal. And [00:13:00] then, I kinda just fell in love with it, and it was all I ever wanted to do. Um, I didn't really con- take, take myself seriously as a writer though until, until college.
Uh, I graduated and started writing for Alloy because I was writing a blog. I was doing like a Harriet the Spy version of- you know, like a millennial version. Which we, we all had our little blogs.
Sydney Collins: Yep.
Lara Avery: And I was doing that at my, at my college, and then somebody who knew somebody, like, saw it, and the rest is history.
And so, and then I was like, "Okay." Well, I wanted to be a screenwriter, and then I was like, "All right. I'll try novels." I mean And again, I didn't know how to write at all So I was like, "I could totally write a bunch of stuff." Um, does it have the shape of a book? No. But thankfully they were willing to invest in me and, and, and, and help me learn, and that's why I'm with them 20, literally 20 years later.
Wow. No. Wait, hold on. Not 20. Almost 20.
Sydney Collins: Almost 20.
Yep
Gus Applequist: How did you- were you aware of the Kansas Book [00:14:00] Festival before- Yes, for- ... working there?
Lara Avery: Yes. Not as, not as deeply as, um, like some are. C- because it ha- it's been around for 15 years- and some would say even longer than that because there was a different version of it that ha- was happening in Wichita as well.
Sydney Collins: Oh. Oh.
Lara Avery: I was aware of it because they asked me to, r- around the publication of my most recent novel, they asked me to be a part of it. But I'd, I had been there as an attendee in the year before- just, just because I saw, I must have just seen the sign around Topeka- and I was like, "Oh, I didn't know we had a book festival." And so my husband and I went and, and, you know, we, we enjoyed it. And then the ne- the year after, I had a book coming out and, but then I couldn't go because It was on the almost the exact day I had my son
Sydney Collins: Oh, shoot.
Gus Applequist: Wow.
Lara Avery: I was like, so I'm ei- either gonna be able to go and be very pregnant or there's gonna be a baby and I can't. So but then I did come to Bookfest West that [00:15:00] year when my son was like, um, like maybe two weeks old. . I brought him over down to Salina-
Lara Avery: to participate at, at, um, the library, at the Salina Public Library. Yep. And that's how I met, um, all the folks at Red Fern, and now I love Salina. Brilliant.
Sydney Collins: Wow.
Lara Avery: So
What Is Kansas Book Festival
---
Sydney Collins: Well, l- tell us what The Kansas Book Festival is for people who don't know.
Lara Avery: Absolutely. it is completely free. I think that is something-
Sydney Collins: The key point
Lara Avery: ... that should be said right away. Um, and it, uh, started as just author panels and which, you know, local authors or Kansas connected authors. We would invite them to come talk to each other with a moderator and just, um, have very bookish conversations. That is still happening. The core is there. We've got over We've got about like 69 authors and moderators participating this year.
Gus Applequist: Wow.
Sydney Collins: That's a
long list.
Lara Avery: A long list. Lots of different [00:16:00] genres. All the way from history, um, and lot of history, a lot of nonfiction- all the way to now we've got our first romance panel featuring Julie Murphy and Sierra Simone-
Sydney Collins: Oh
man
Lara Avery: Adib Khorram. Um, all, all of them are Kansas City based writers. And then Lisa Raine, I think, is also Kansas City based. So it's like- that's a lot of KC writers, but a lotta Kansas s- um, a lotta Kansas in there. And, um, Autumn Freedley of the Topeka Public Library is going to be moderating that. But we also got an amazing keynote this year.
Ben Lerner is joining us, whose book Transcription just got, um, the New York Times one of the best books of the year n- in New York Times.
Sydney Collins: Oh wow.
Lara Avery: Um, and he, you know, was nominated for a Pulitzer for The Topeka School, so he's a, he's a big deal in the kind of literary world. And he's h- just happens to be childhood best friends with, um, somebody involved in the festival.
Gus Applequist: Wow.
Sydney Collins: Oh.
Lara Avery: So he's just gonna come and talk to his childhood best [00:17:00] friend onstage
Gus Applequist: That's awesome
Lara Avery: which is gonna be-- I just love that idea as a keynote. Just like- two buddies just sitting down- Just chilling and chatting ... broing out. That's so good. Um, and Anyway so we've got that component, but now we've c- expanded into having a whole exhibitor fair, which involves like local organizations, focused on literacy and other like Uh, storytelling, uh, aspects.
Um, we've got, um, independent presses, uh, having tables. We've got, uh, authors of all stripes, um, who have tables who will be selling their books. So it's gonna be like a whole little f- like fair.
Parade Food and Perks
---
Lara Avery: And then we've got food trucks and live music, and this year for the first time ever, we are doing a book parade.
Have you heard about this?
Gus Applequist: What is a book parade?
Sydney Collins: A book parade? No, I have never heard of this.
Lara Avery: It's so fun. So y- a book parade is when kids of all ages from toddlers all the way up to high schoolers dress up as their favorite [00:18:00] book character. And adults are welcome too.
Sydney Collins: I hope Man..
Lara Avery: You can dress up as Fili. If you really want to. Okay.
Guy in green. We could do Lord of the Rings. Do a whole Lord of the Rings- Yep ... uh, spread. Um, but are, are gonna come and it's ... We have a live band that's gonna accompany them, like around the fairgrounds, and Bill Curtis is gonna like- make the announcement.
Gus Applequist: Oh my gosh.
Sydney Collins: That's really cool. Um, we are so excited. I've never... I've seen one. I've never been a part of one. So, um, if you're willing to just experiment with me and see how it goes, I think- it should be fun. We're doing it in collaboration with Topeka Public Schools, so- Cool ... we're trying to get like the kids on board.
The word out and-
Yep.
Gus Applequist: So the event is in Topeka then? Uh-
Lara Avery: Yes. Uh, that's a good thank you- for, uh, for reminding me. it's at the campus of Washburn University. So right outside the library, we've got an outdoor space, and then all the panels, and there'll be some story times for the younger [00:19:00] readers inside, um, the library.
So all just kind of library pl- Well, we're gonna have coffee, barbecue, ice cream treats, crepes.
Gus Applequist: I mean, this-
Sydney Collins: I love a crepe. Tiny little thin pancakes?
Gus Applequist: It's like, like everything you loved about the Scholastic book fair but with a whole bunch more stuff
Sydney Collins: But an adult...
Gus Applequist: It's awesome.
Lara Avery: Exactly. And I tried to recreate, like I also tried to recreate, like Book It a little bit.
Sydney Collins: Oh, okay.
Lara Avery: So I didn't, I, I, it was my first year, you know, obviously it's my first year doing it so I spread myself a little too thin and got a little too excited. But if you buy, like Kansas Book Festival featured books -
um, which we, we've given some bookstores a list of these books. If you buy three of them you get 10% off the whole bundle.
And then it gets you into a party in Topeka on the week of the festival-
Sydney Collins: Oh
Lara Avery: cool .... where y- wh- where you'll get free pizza.
Gus Applequist: Nice.
Sydney Collins: Well heck
Lara Avery: So like by, Buy
Sydney Collins: three books, get free pizza.
Lara Avery: Exactly. I think
Sydney Collins: that's a fair trade.
Lara Avery: Ex- exactly. So Rainy Day in Kansas City, r- uh [00:20:00] Roundtable in Topeka, and Raven in Lawrence are participating.
Redfern was into it, but they were like, "But let's get one in Salina." And I was like, yeah. So next year we're gonna try and make that happen. Right.
Sydney Collins: That's cool.
Leading Authors and Logistics
---
Gus Applequist: what have you learned in writing that has influenced the way you lead the Fair?
And what, is there anything that you've encountered in running the Fair that will influence your writing?
Lara Avery: I think, uh, writing and just the strange sad circus of being an author in 2026, um, al- allows me to communicate with the writers in a way that maybe, you know, maybe somebody who just w- would be coming from a different industry or familiar with a different type of, um, type of people that they serve, um I think, I think I have unique, a unique ability to kind of [00:21:00] understand what they need and what they're coming from, where they're coming from. Not because they are n- particularly, like, difficult or, or whatever. But, you know, for example, I don't try to se- I don't send them too many emails. Um, and I think every- I think anyone would appreciate that. But I also know that I can send them one big email, and they will read it. Because they're authors.
Sydney Collins: They are, they are authors. They will read it. It's not like the rest of us. Right. It's like get through the first paragraph, and then you realize there's three others- Yes
Lara Avery: and you're like, "Ugh." And you go, "
Sydney Collins: Oh." "Nah, I'm good."
Lara Avery: And, and also, I think sending too many emails and putting too much pressure, like, they- I ne- I'm gonna give them the information they need.
And I'm gonna give them in a, a small, small doses, because writers are, some of us are introverts. Not me, but s- a lot of, a lot of them are, and putting too much pressure on the event, I think could mess with their equilibrium a little bit. So that's wh-... That's definitely a part of my [00:22:00] strategy in communi- And, and also, like, reaching out to authors, like big names, I've been very, like I try to be very, uh, personable and, um, not like too formal Because I know that when people reach out to me as if m- my status as a quote unquote author makes me into someone I'm not-
Sydney Collins: Oh
Lara Avery: um, or like someone powerful, I- it, it, it puts me off a little bit 'cause I'm just like you don't, you know that people don't read anymore? You know that we're all making like $20,000 a year. Like , like- .Like you know, like i, I appreciate that you're coming at me from a world that doesn't exist anymore. And I wish it did exist but... And maybe some authors like that. That, that, you know, maybe my, maybe my informal approach is not formal enough for some authors but- ... for me I'm, I'm thinking about it how would I like to be spoken to- [00:23:00] ....you know?
If for an event like this. Uh, I'd want to be, I want there to be care coming from the other side of the person- ...but maybe not, not reverence for, for a status that I just don't, don't have. And, and I maybe, you know, I don't know. It would be great someday for authors to be paid for the beautiful work that they do, in a fair way.
In the same way that-
Gus Applequist: A wild thought.
Lara Avery: Yeah, in the same way that like, you know, I made more money pushing buttons, you know on a computer like And not that admin work isn't valuable either, but I made more money doing that than I've ever had putting my heart and soul onto a page and like-
literally all hours of every day, all night thinking about it and putting like deep effort into it. Um, so it's like w- so it's very clear what our society values. And maybe I should be a space where I, I should like value ... Like you know [00:24:00] what I mean? . I should give them reverence. But for me, I'd rather come at it fr- with honesty of like, "Hey, man, we're all trying to survive here." Like, let's nerd out together. And let's, let's preserve our, our love of this. Um, a- and y- we don't have a lot of money to give ya, but we love ya. Let's, let's celebrate together.
Sydney Collins: how do you even begin to organize all the sessions, and picking the authors, and the books and, and all of that?'Cause I can't [00:25:00] even imagine 'cause there's thousands of books written every year. So how, how is that narrowed down? Is it by committee? Does your board help? Yes. What does that look like?
Lara Avery: Yes and yes. There's a whole committee, and fortunately this year I was thrown right into the middle of their very hard work.
Um, so I just got to observe and offer input when I could. But they have been doing this for, like I said, dec- over a decade- and so they know how to keep their eye out on the national scene and make sure that they're like, "Oh, this author has a Kansas connection. They've got something coming out soon. Let's reach out to them." , Th- they've got their finger on the pulse, and I still have yet to learn that. we've also got an incredible board who not only, um, you know, contributes financially at times, but whenever they're asked or when they're needed, whatever they can give. But also, um, they serve on the committees. Like We've got one person, Cindy Roop, who used to work for State Library of Kansas. Um, now, uh, we get her [00:26:00] genius brain on- organizing all the exhibitors. We've got, um, Kathleen Morgan, who works for the Friends of the Lawrence Public Library. Um, she's our board chair, and she helps with all the performers, the live performances. But she also acts like as a mentor to me 'cause she's been in the nonprofit world- much longer than I have. And I'm kind of, I'm kind of, uh, here by the, their grace. I'm really fumbling through it. And I like to talk about books, and I can talk to writers.
Uh, but other than that, my organization skills are, um, you know, you, you come and see for yourself, you know? I think it'll be a good time. May- will it be the most organized festival? Perhaps not. Will it be fun? Absolutely.
Sydney Collins: Love that.
Festival Date and Panels
---
Sydney Collins: what day is the festival on this year?
Lara Avery: September 26th.
Sydney Collins: September
26th.
Okay.
Lara Avery: Yes. All right. Saturday, September 26th. It starts at 9:00 AM, and that's why we've got coffee.
Sydney Collins: Okay.
Lara Avery: Come, come at 9:00 [00:27:00] AM. Um, we've got panels starting immediately. Books will be for sale immediately, and, um, you've got some crepes and coffee to keep you company.
Sydney Collins: Um, Deb's in it this year.
Gus Applequist: Oh good,
Sydney Collins: Deborah Goodwin.
So Deb Goodrich. Yes. We've had her on.
Lara Avery: Oh amazing.
Gus Applequist: Friend of the pod
Lara Avery: ... yes, uh, yes, she's-
Sydney Collins: She's a friend
Lara Avery: ... on it. Um, she is speaking to Daniel Atkinson. Her book on Charles Curtis and then- Yep ... Daniel has a book on George Nash Walker- who was like a kind of ignored, uh, star, uh, during the Jim Crow era.
Ah. And so they're speaking to Bruce, Dr. Bruce McTavish from Washburn-
Sydney Collins: Oh cool
Lara Avery: how these two public figures, these two men of color navigated, you know, a post civil war America and should be, should be a really exciting panel.
Sydney Collins: That's really cool.
Dungeon Master Character Talk
---
Gus Applequist: I have lots of questions.
Go for it. Mostly just about your writing 'cause I think-
Lara Avery: Go for it
Gus Applequist: ... it's fascinating. I, so I'm a game master, you know, I, I, uh, with an [00:28:00] RPG game, and,-
Lara Avery: Oh ... um-
You're a dungeon
master
Gus Applequist: ... I am a dungeon master.
Lara Avery: Okay, but do you do Dungeons & Dragons or do you do a different game?
Gus Applequist: Dungeons & dragons.
Lara Avery: Okay. Now the fascination goes two ways.
Sydney Collins: I'm so glad this finally came out. Oh.
Gus Applequist: Um, so, so my wife who plays with me, um, she, she commented the other day that, "Gus, all of your non player characters sound just like you." Like not just, not just that I can't do an accent, but like I, I'm, I'm kind of like just a nice guy and all of my characters are just kinda nice people too.
He's just a nice guy
Lara Avery: The villain's
like-
I'm gonna have to kill you now" I'm so sorry.
Gus Applequist: That is accurate. Um, so, so like I'm, I'm really genuinely curious- Ooh, okay .... how do you when, when you're writing a character, how do you distinguish that character from yourself- and, and also like inhabit their brain- to figure out what they want and what they're trying to do in the world?
Sydney Collins: Basically, how does character development work?
Crafting Character Voices
---
Lara Avery: [00:29:00] What are your top five tips?
Gus Applequist: I'm just curious. Um,
Lara Avery: no it, it is, it is hard. It is hard. And you No matter how many books you write or at least by the you I mean me, no matter how many books I write, no matter how much practice I have at fiction, I still have to check myself- and be like, "Oh these characters just sound like me." I still have to do that. So I have the benefit of revision whereas you... I mean, you do have some planning. Um, but you're in the moment If y-
Sydney Collins: if you need me to go through your characters before we close-
Gus Applequist: Trust me trust me- ... you know ... you don't wanna do that.
Lara Avery: Um, but, uh, so, so th even through the benefit, with the benefit of revision there's a little bit of psychology, a little bit of craft, and a little bit of just kinda, um, vibing. Um, and so the vibing I can't, I can't speak too much to 'cause like I, like many fiction writers I just sorta hear voices in my head and I tr- I transcribe them down. I- [00:30:00] I don't know how they get in there or why they're different from mine. maybe I should get that looked at. It's not a problem. no but so that I can't speak to.
But I, but I do know that, one of the, the best sort of moments I've had as, it was in grad school, when, we kind of instead of like a traditional workshop which like a fiction workshop you sit down and you sort of just rip into each other's work
Gus Applequist: That sounds terrifying.
Lara Avery: It's ter- It's terrifying.
And in some ways it's n- it's really helpful and in some ways it's really not.
Um, so this r- this teacher that I had wasn't a huge fan of that, and he was like, "I'd like us to just really dig into craft." And we were like, "Uh, boring. Fine" But sentence by sentence, you see how ... And, and again English majors learn this from the jump.
They learn this from, you know, when they're 18.
Diction First Psychology Later
---
Lara Avery: But [00:31:00] me not being an English major it was a wonderful reminder of like how a single word can change the entire tone of a sentence. And so that wo- So word choice might be your friend. Um, if you can assign diction to your characters before you s- before you start. Like w- do they, uh You could even list out certain words or what approach to language do they have? Then the character follows that. So, so it kind of is going from reverse the, to the psychology thing. The psychology thing would say that whoever this character is informs the way they speak. Well, maybe you could reverse that.
Maybe you could pick the way they speak first- and see how that informs their character. Um, so that way you don't have to like, you know, dive deep into the, like the psychological traumas of a, of an Orc or whatever you know, before you start.
Gus Applequist: No, that's [00:32:00] completely fair and accurate.
Orc Lore Detour
---
Lara Avery: You know, like did this Orc have a good relationship with his Orc mother?
You know, like-
Gus Applequist: Probably not.
Sydney Collins: Well, they don't have moms, right? Orcs? They j- come out of the earth. They don't just jump out o- Just come out of the earth.
Gus Applequist: No, you're thinking of, uh, dwarves.
Lara Avery: Well, Lord of the Rings.
Uh, huh?
Gus Applequist: You're thinking of dwarves. Dwarves just pop out of holes in the ground.
Sydney Collins: Okay. No but the Orcs like in the movies-
Lara Avery: In the Uruk-hai, in Ur- In the Lord of the Rings, the Uruk-hai kind of p- just-
Gus Applequist: That's true
Lara Avery: kinda come out of the ground.
Gus Applequist: Very true. Very true. Fair enough.
Lara Avery: But, but Orcs: What do we think about Orcs?
Gus Applequist: I don't know.
Lara Avery: About their family structures.
Gus Applequist: I think somebody has to explore this.
Lara Avery: Agreed. With
the Orcs.
Sydney Collins: I'm sure there's a Reddit
string somewhere that can answer this for us.
Lara Avery: Yes. Yes. Sound off in the comments.
How do Orcs reproduce?
Sydney Collins: How do Orcs reproduce?
Gus Applequist: Places I never thought the podcast would go, here we are.
Sydney Collins: I love this so much.
Lara Avery: This is fun.
Gus Applequist: Okay, I have another question.
Lara Avery: Yes, about Orcs.
Creative Horcruxes Legacy
---
Gus Applequist: Um, J. K. Rowling is everyone's, uh, favorite author these days Oh. Sorry. And, and so I'm not gonna get too into that. No, we don't have to get into that. But, but, but J. K. Rowling, [00:33:00] you know, uh, talks in Harry Potter about Horcruxes
this thing she sort of labeled. And um, one of the things I've been thinking about lately is how creatives like w- we sort of make Horcruxes. Like every time we, we make something, e- every time we envision something, create, we sort of like leave a piece of ourselves behind in our work And as I look at, like just here in the last few days, Wendell Berry died and you know, he lives or leaves this incredible huge legacy of, of, of work both, you know, fiction and nonfiction all sorts of things. and and through his work he has achieved some form of immortality- through it all. Not that that I think should necessarily be any writer's goal.
Right.
But, but I'm just curious, like what, what do you leave behind when you write?
Sydney Collins: What are your
horcruxes?
Lara Avery: Oh man. [00:34:00] You know, a- as I get old, as I approach 40, I think about that more often.
I do, I do. I think about, I think about the books that I, that I or m- more, more likely my husband picks off the shelf. He's much better at picking u- up, you know, older books that aren't- you know fancy or new, whereas I'm kind of shiny, you know?
I'm like, "What's next?" but I think about that a lot, um, when he brings these books home and, and they sit on our s- shelves and I was like, oh my God, someone's, someone's, not their entire life is in here, but like, uh, at least a year of their life, and their imaginary lives. You know? Like the lives that they've conjured, um, using their own experiences, using their hurts, using their triumphs. That's why books matter so much to me and that's why, that's why I do what I do with the festival. I mean because people need to fight for them. So [00:35:00] but what do I leave behind? Um, I can't answer that because ... A- and that's what I keep telling myself when I ask myself this question because I think it's gotta be up to whoever picks it up.
I mean because the book ultimately is a conversation with the reader. that's why, oh, I'm gonna cry. That's why books are such a unique art form because, unlike a visual medium there is an imaginary space that you and the you and the writer go to together. And, and you are just as much a part of constructing that as they are. And this is not a new idea. This is not something original that I thought of. This is oft studied, you know, and talked about in, in like s- you know literary spaces. But it's such a s- it's simple idea that anyone can understand and why w- anyone should remember. I, I talk to so many people. So many people every probably every person I meet about books [00:36:00] just You know, because it comes up 'cause of who I am and e- and even if they don't know I'm an author we ta- I end up talking about books, and I, I hear so many people say, "Oh, I just don't have time. I just don't have time and I just... You know, it's just, it's hard and I haven't done it since elementary school," and like blah, blah, blah, blah. And I, I, I, I'm sure all of those things are true. And, like, as time becomes more and more valuable to you, as you get older I think it does, and I think that people should value their time more. I really do.
Attention Economy vs Reading
---
Lara Avery: I think they should stop putting it in places it doesn't belong, because every second is, is precious and e- and every second, every minute can be, can be, I don't know, put toward going to these places with an author, you know? Like, I'm not saying you need to read every single minute, but, like, uh, like the hours spent on these devices we [00:37:00] have, like, it is-
Gus Applequist: Five
hours and 17 minutes-
Ugh
last
week
Lara Avery: per day. Absolutely. Per day. Per day, five hours. I just stopped checking. That's very common. That's a super common screen time, right? And, like, think about how m- where your attention is going. And I don't think, again, I don't think it has to be this black and white thing where you have to make yourself into a monk and read every book in existence. But I think we can and should now start looking at where, where our consciousness is going. And that's what I'd like to leave. I'd like to leave that behind more than anything else, anything in my books. I'd like to leave behind, like, your consciousness is such a precious wonderful thing, and it's completely free, you know?
And it, nobody can take it from you. Ever. So give it to something beautiful, you know? Give it to something that somebody worked hard on, not, like, you know, Jeff Bezos or, you know, Mark [00:38:00] Zuckerberg. You know, he probably doesn't even read fiction He probably doesn't These, these billionaires- Gonna tell ya ... I mean, if they're out there and they want-
Gus Applequist: It would be very interesting to know if they do I wouldn't put it past them.
Lara Avery: Would be funny to know. And, and honestly, it would be more messed up if they did, and they were doing what they do to us.
You know what I mean? Exploiting, exploiting our time. It's... That's a super villain for you right there.
Sydney Collins: Can you put-
Gus Applequist: Coming out hot. I like it ...
Sydney Collins: can you put Jeff and Mark into your next villains- ... for your D n' D game?
Yes.
Lara Avery: Yes.
Gus Applequist: That's not a bad idea. These
Lara Avery: dead-eyed billion- These dead-eye billionaires, make them into, like, wizards or something.
And that evil wizards that extract time, like all of the sudden, like fuzoop-
Sydney Collins: Oh, extract time.
Lara Avery: Oh,
Sydney Collins: that's so good
Lara Avery: ... and like two seconds. You know, you think two seconds have passed, and then it's all of a sudden two years, and there's like a baby in your arms, and you're like, "Wait, what?"
Gus Applequist: This is, this is something.
Sydney Collins: You're
cooking.
Lara Avery: I'm writing a book here.
Gus Applequist: Uh, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm into the third Dungeon Crawler [00:39:00] Carl book right now- ... so it fits pretty well.
Lara Avery: Well, and I'm sorry for going so hard. I am sorry- No ... for going so hard, but that, that... I, I have to be authentic about why I'm doing this. Oh Like, and this is why I'm, why I'm doing the book festival and why I continue to be a writer.
You know what I mean? Obviously I do, I do, I write because I just love it, and I just never wanna do anything else, but also because I really want people to pick up books again because books are f- are magical and special. And like, the older I get, the more I realize that and know that.
Gus Applequist: Think we're, we're seeing a return to, to analog, you know, to records.
And, and, and- you know, the, the unexpected rise of the independent bookstore again from- Yes ... you know, a long predicted doom. Like-
Lara Avery: Yes ...
Gus Applequist: there, there's reasons for hope I think in, in terms of, of people kinda coming to these conclusions that you're drawing as well.
Lara Avery: I think so too. But-
Gus Applequist: We have a long ways to go perhaps, but..
Lara Avery: But We do. We do, but [00:40:00] we're, we're, but we're still fighting. I mean, we haven't-
you know, gone, uh, to like, to quote, w- who is that? Dylan Thomas: "We haven't gotten quietly into the night"- yet, you know?
Books as Shared Imaginary Space
---
Lara Avery: and I, I think, I honestly think that role playing games inhabit that space too.
I think there is something really special about multiple people getting together and entering imaginary space together. That's why live theater is so special too. I mean, and I hope, I hope we continue to see the backlash of this. And, um, I hope, I hope people that don't consider themselves readers can start just like going ahead and doing that, you know?
And I h- Yep ... hear people doing audiobooks when they're like, "Oh, I'm not really a reader, but I do audiobooks." Yes you are. You are a reader, absolutely. Listening... You're doing the same. You're entering an imaginary space with the author, just like anyone who picks up a physical book, so um, everyone's a reader
Gus Applequist: I, one of my favorite bookstores is The Tattered Cover in Denver, and I think- I've been
Lara Avery: there
Gus Applequist: I'm pretty sure it's, it's that store that [00:41:00] has the, um, the slogan, "Humanity in print," which I just- Oh ... I just love that. And the whole concept- That's great ... that like, um, when you read, like you're accessing like our species', like whole history and breadth of experience over eons. And it's, it's just a beautiful thing.
Raising Readers at Home
---
Sydney Collins: So as we, as your passion goes, you want more people to read, how can we... I- i- and that passion needs to start young. That's right. So as a mom, as a writer- like, we've heard the education people saying, "Oh, you gotta start super young." We've all heard of Dolly Parton's Imagination Library.
Yes. We've all ... What is your-
Lara Avery: RIP. Yep.
Sydney Collins: Right. Um, what is your take on how can we get people to-
not just start young, but also understand why it's so important? What's kind of your, your take on that, especially as a mom?
Lara Avery: Absolutely. I think that putting books in your home, all over your home, is the best way [00:42:00] to do that, whether that's through the library or, you know, purchasing them.
I- if you can't afford them, library is the m- most amazing place on Planet Earth. Um, and signing up for Imagination Library, of course. B- um, but uh, like, how can they, how can we convince people, that's sort of why I think, uh, books all over the home has to do that because I don't think, eh, I think even my impassioned speeches or the impassionned speeches of all the people who are saying the same thing as me- aren't gonna do much. You just have to show kids that books are part of life and are You know what I mean? In the same way that, like, um, if you leave a basketball around, around your home- you know, like eventually the kid is gonna be curious about it. I'm not saying they're gonna become, you know, an NBA star or WNBA star.
But, like, like you, you communicate your value to your kids in ways that you don't even realize. [00:43:00] And so if they see you reading and if, or they see books around your home, they start to understand books as part of a fundamental, you know, like a fundamental part of your shared lives together and they start to value them because you value them.
And and, and that's why, like, um, sorry to be all crunchy, but I try not to be on my phone around my kid.
Um, because I don't, first of all, I don't wanna be on my phone. It's a terrible place full of emails and- you know? Like, what... If I need it to make a phone call, sure, yes, of course I'll pull it out. Um, but, uh, I don't wanna show him that it is, that a ph- that phone is, a phone is a place. It's not a place. It's not a place.
Sydney Collins: Dang.
Lara Avery: Where you are is, is your place, you know? So it's not like I'm sitting there, like teaching him, like, you know, like teaching him, like species of butterflies or whatever.
You know? Like we sit around and just [00:44:00] like, you know, put things and thi- that's mostly what my toddler and I are doing, but, but, I'm showing him that the world is where he should be, not wherever billionaires want you to be, you know? Like staring- staring at their screens, like sucking your, your attention for money.
So, so books around the house, and like, I h- like things like the Kansas Book Festival, library programming, like showing them that books are worth celebrating and books are part of public life as well. In the same way that you want books around the house, you want books around the city. Um, uh, again, this is, these are ways that we demonstrate the value of things we actually care about.
Because I think if y- even y- even if you ask like a non-reader, "Are books important?" They would say, "Ah, yes, r- reading is so important," and, "Yes, of course I want, of course I want everyone to learn how to read and to, to enjoy books." And then you spend... You know what I mean? And then you spend six hours on your phone.
Same. No judgment. You know what I mean? But like [00:45:00] you've gotta find ways to demonstrate- like physically demonstrate the value of things you care about. And, and for me it's books, and for everyone I think books should be part of that. But, I think, once again, this, this backlash to, um, technology sort of seeping into our values in ways that like we don't even realize, um, you counteract that by physically participating in what you care about.
Kansas Stories and Festival Mission
---
Gus Applequist: Fili we've, we've gradually gotten more involved in the fight for tax incentives in Kansas to be directed towards film making- Oh, in Kansas 'cause we need more stories about Kansas- Absolutely ... onscreen. Um, and so I, I'm just, I'm curious, like I'm aware of stories set in Kansas in book form, um, but I'm, I'm just curious what your pers- perception is of is Kansas represented well in books, uh- both as a people and as a place? you know, [00:46:00] is that something that the Kansas Book Festival is actively working on or a part of?
Lara Avery: Kansas, like anything that is represented um, in s- in a story form isn't a monolith and so the more books there are about Kansas, the more accurate you know it'll be because And, and in some ways I think it's also okay to lean into a shared identity like via uh, like The Wizard of Oz and, and wheat And ,like In Cold Blood It put, it really put Kansas on the map.
Sydney Collins: It really did.
Lara Avery: But, but you know, like how, how do we support Kansans writing about Kansas is absolutely something that should be on our radar. You know at, on the festival's radar and honestly that's kind of what as I look back on my year with the festival like and look ahead like I think that's what the festival [00:47:00] should kinda figure out is like what role they have in supporting Kansans writing about Kansas and especially like um, Kansans whose voices haven't been traditionally centered in Kansas.
Like especially like Indigenous Kansas. Um, the people that were here before us um, and deserve as much say if not more say than, about like what Kansa- Kansas, the story of Kansas sh- should look like and should be. Um, how do we do that? How do, how does a festival do that is kind of like the- Oh, the big question.
How does a f- how does a day, how does a festival like that takes place during one day, completely free by the way, September 26th.
Gus Applequist: Nice.
Lara Avery: Um, plug. How does it, how does it address these bigger questions? Um, and I think it can. I think it absolutely can and should. And like, does that, does that mean year-round programming?
Does that mean taking it out of northeast Kansas? 'Cause like it is really concentrated in the [00:48:00] Topeka, Lawrence, KC area. And, and like how do we get, you know, how do we get like physically, again, like going back to that, how do we physically get into, into places that aren't just northeast Kansas? But um, I mean th- these are questions I'm also asking.
Gus Applequist: Getting somebody like Deb there is a great sign.
Lara Avery: Yes. Yes. I, I mean, we w- uh, I, I think she's not the only western Kansas writer we have. No, there's a couple of them. We, Dennis Garcia- um, and Melanie Bonner Thomas. Uh, and then we've also got Kansas Authors Club, which has a lot of, uh, roots in a lot of different places.
Um, we're asking, we're trying, and we're trying to figure out how best to get our res- our limited resources- um, out there in a way that, that m- that does, that does give these writers their due and, um, and encourages new writers and, uh, you [00:49:00] know, new Kansas writers and, um, but also acknowledges all the great, uh, accomplishments of Kansas connectors and writers currently.
Support the Festival Donate
---
Lara Avery: So how do we, how do we get bigger? I don't know. You tell me. You help me. Donate. That's how. Donate.
Sydney Collins: And where can they donate?
Lara Avery: They can donate at kansasbookfestival.com. We've got multiple buttons, uh- Nice ... easy, easy to press. Um, we also have an address that you can send checks and, um, we truly do survive solely based on, grants- uh, some sponsorships this year, and mostly, just individual donations. Uh, I would say like our average like individual donation is probably 20 to 35 bucks. Um-
Gus Applequist: That's good.
Sydney Collins: That's good
Lara Avery: ... exactly. It's, and, or it's a, you know, it's a r- an, an, a restaurant night, you know, and fast food night. It's like, um, so that, and it really helps us and, um, it really shows, shows us and shows the [00:50:00] writers and readers that work with us that they matter.
Gus Applequist: Thank you for joining us today. Thank you. This was great.
Sydney Collins: Appreciate it.
Lara Avery: Thank you. This was so much fun. Thank you for letting me go off the rails.
Gus Applequist: Oh. Oh, of course. Anytime.
Sydney Collins: That's
my favorite thing to do
Dungeon Master Aftershow
---
Gus Applequist: Well, now that the cat's out of the bag and you know that I'm a dungeon master, I wanna reassure those of you that may think that that's a, a scary thing. Um, it's like, like we reference, I think it's, like, group storytelling.
Sydney Collins: It's group storytelling. if you, if you ever read the book Ready Player One-
it will give you... [00:51:00] Which is one of my favorite books of all times. It, it will give you a really good, like, fun insight into, like, what that is- New culture ... a little bit.
In that culture. So- um.
So I'm just so excited. 'Cause now I really want someone on somewhere... I don't ... I'm sure there's a group here in Kansas that's, like, the D&D players of, like, all time in Kansas- Yep
and I just really... Tanner, write that down. And I just-
Gus Applequist: RPG as a kid
Sydney Collins: ... think it would be... It would just be, like, The Nerds of Kansas or something- like that, and I would just be so excited.
Gus Applequist: I, I, I encounter a lot of fear about that. Uh-
Sydney Collins: Oh, really?
Gus Applequist: Uh- Oh .... but, but, uh, I think people don't really know what it is, and that's part of the reason why.
Sydney Collins: Exactly. So which is why we should educate- those.
Gus Applequist: Maybe read a few more books.
Sydney Collins: And read a few more books.
Gus Applequist: Lar- Lara was, uh, really, when you find out you're gonna have somebody who directs a book festival on-
Yup ....
I sort of think of, like, all the librarians- Yup .... of my youth. And Laura was not that-
No
in the best way possible.
Sydney Collins: In the [00:52:00] best way. And I'm... And it was nice to have a writ- 'cause we've had writers on, and I, as I mentioned in our conversation, but they, they've mainly been, like, historians- and, and kind of that history piece, so it's great to have a different ver- 'cause there's just so many-
authors in the world, and they all do s- such different things and, and have different personalities and perspectives and... I could go on and on about this, but it's just, it was-
Gus Applequist: Go
out to your independent bookstore- buy a book, dress up, go to the parade.
Yes.
Have a great time.
Sydney Collins: Go do all the things.
Dartography Holton History
---
Gus Applequist: Well, welcome back to another segment of Dartography.
Sydney Collins: Oh goodness.
Gus Applequist: Our segment where we throw a dart at a map of Kansas. And then we learn about wherever the dart lands. Last time actually Tanner threw the dar-
Sydney Collins: Tanner did it.
Tanner I had to run out and so Tanner -
Tanner did it.
Gus Applequist: And, the dart landed, uh, a little bit northeast of Holton.
Okay.
And, I, so did a little research about Holton and Jackson, and I have, I have two and a half things [00:53:00] to tell you about Holton today, okay? So I'll just get right into it. In December of 1858, an enslaved man in Vernon County, Missouri named Jim Daniels got permission to s- cross into Kansas and sell brooms. That was the pretext but what he actually wanted to do was to look for John Brown's camp.
Sydney Collins: Wow.
Gus Applequist: The man who had owned Daniels had died and the estate was being sold off to pay debts which meant that Daniels, his wife Narcissa, and their children were about to be sold south and separated. Narcissa was pregnant. And Daniels found one of Brown's men, got word through and asked for help. And on December 20th, Brown and his men crossed into Missouri and took 11 people out of slavery. It was not bloodless. Uh, they killed a slaveholder named David Cruz. But brown hid the seven ... Sorry, the 11 in a covered wagon and started north headed for under- the Underground Railroad stations in Iowa. And so they were sort of like [00:54:00] meandering across the eastern border of Kansas as they went north. Right. Um, so a United States Deputy Marshal named John Wood, basically hired a posse, uh, to go after these 11 because remember at this time that was like under the Fugitive Slave Act, this was the law of the land, that Brown was a thief and these 11 people were stol- stolen property. So, you know, basically the government of the United States is hunting him. So the, also the governor of Missouri posted a $3,000 reward for returning these 11 people to slavery.
Sydney Collins: Wow.
Gus Applequist: And President of the United States at the time, uh, Buchanan added 250, I assume that's $250 not 250,000 . Um, Brown then in response publicly offered $2.50 for the arrest of President Buchanan which is like-
the most John Brown thing. So you, you may be asking like w- what does this have to do with Holton?
Well, they moved nors- north through Kansas at [00:55:00] about the rate of 15 miles a night, and somewhere near Garnet they stopped because Narcissa Daniels went into labor. And she had a son, and she named him John Brown Daniels, um, out of respect for the man who- helped to rescue them. But they are still very much not safe. So now there's 12 of them with a newborn. And, uh, they roll into Holton in late January, and they stop at a hotel for dinner. And Brown Sort of figured and hoped that the danger was behind them, that, you know, Jackson County was here in, in kind of the free state of Kansas and, and it was settled by abolitionists. And that afternoon they drove out, uh, six miles to a log cabin on Straight Creek, which was an underground railroad station. And they meant to stay one night, but then it rained and the creek rose, and they were stuck. And the deputy marshals were catching up to them. So one of Brown's men, uh, went to water a horse, uh, out on [00:56:00] the land that they're stuck on, and, and ran into two deputy marshals that were searching for them.
Sydney Collins: Oh, shoot.
Gus Applequist: And he got them at gunpoint and brought them back to the cabin but there were some other marshals that saw and got away- and went and told, uh, Marshal Wood where John Brown was. So now, both sides sort of realized that they didn't have enough people, and so they sent-
Sydney Collins: Oh, no
Gus Applequist: for reinforcements. Wood's posse grew to 45, and they dug rifle pits on the far bank of the creek covering the only crossing, and waited for this group to try to escape. But John Brown got a message to Topeka, and this is interesting. It reached a free state colonel named John Ritchie on Sunday morning as he sat in a church pew, and Ritchie stood up in the middle of the service, said there was work to do, and walked out And the minister looked at the congregation and just sent everyone home
Sydney Collins: One guy got up, so everyone else
had to leave.
Gus Applequist: I guess. But I mean, and he like announced it to the congregation.
Sydney Collins: Interesting.
Okay.
Gus Applequist: So a dozen Topeka men [00:57:00] left that afternoon. Uh, there weren't enough horses, so some of them had to walk. They marched all night and picked up a few more in Holton before they reached the creek on January 31st. So here's the picture: you've got John Brown and 12 people running for their lives, one of them a newborn, and then 21 armed men, uh, trying to support them as they escaped. Um, and then across the water, like a half mile away, you had 45 federal deputies dug in trying to prevent them from escaping. And so, you know, we, we kind of could see where this might go, right? That there's a bloody conflict about to erupt. Right. now, John Brown was a bit of a hothead, if you didn't already know this. Um, and so the Topeka guys were like, "Hey, you should probably like go upstream to another place to ford the river."
There's like... This one's dangerous and there's people there trying to kill you and capture these people. But Brown was like, "Nah." The, the Lord marked out a path for him, and he meant to follow it. And so he just climbed in- [00:58:00] took the reins, and drove into the flooded creek. So there were some of the, the marshal's men on the other side of the creek, and they were, they didn't have the right, um, like ammunition or something. We don't know exactly why, but two of them like suddenly got up and ran back to their horses. And in doing so, their whole line misunderstood that as like an instruction to retreat
Sydney Collins: Oh my gosh
Gus Applequist: And so all of, all of the, the people that are coming after these escaped slaves, suddenly retreat en masse unintentionally giving them room to escape. and so nobody fired a shot. Th- this has been referred to ever since as the Battle of the Spurs. Um, and, and- .. the good news is that all 12 got out of Kansas and never came back. In March they crossed the Detroit River by ferry into Canada. You know John Brown was somewhat complicated although I, I think generally speaking, you know he's remembered as a, as a hero kind of a vigilante hero but just 11 months after [00:59:00] this incident he was hung in Virginia for the incident at Harpers Ferry which he led. So um, so it's just an interesting connection- Crazy .... to this area and, and, uh, this place.
Sydney Collins: cool.
Gus Applequist: So okay, that was one of two and a half.
Sydney Collins: Oh my
goodness.
Gus Applequist: So we're gonna go into our next one.
Prairie Band Potawatomi Story
---
Gus Applequist: Um, have you ever heard of the Prairie Band Potawatomi Reservation?
Sydney Collins: I'm assuming it's probably the same as The Prairie Band Casino
Gus Applequist: Correct.
Okay.
Um, so 20 minutes southwest of Holton you will find the Prairie Band Potawatomi Reservation. It's about 11 square miles in the middle of Jackson County. so just a little bit about the Potawatomi. The Potawatomi are a Great Lakes people originally. They are from the country right around the bottom of Lake Michigan like Gary Indiana- in, in that area. In 1830 Andrew Jackson signed the Indian Removal Act and they-- That pushed these people across the Mississippi and they moved again and again every time a white settlement popped up and they were forced to move again [01:00:00] And, so they ended up in northwest Missouri, then western Iowa. Then under a treaty in 1846, they move south into Kansas. So the irony here is that the county they landed in was la- later named Jackson for Andrew Jackson, the guy who made them move there in the first place.
Sydney Collins: Oh, that's cruel.
Gus Applequist: It ... I don't know if that was done out of spite or something, but it, it is, it is sort of a sad irony at,
at best.
Sydney Collins: little knife in the back.
Gus Applequist: Um, so in 1861, the tribe split. Most, accepted parcels and US citizenship and then moved to Oklahoma. But the rest, the prairie band, refused because they wanted to hold the land together, so they stayed. And by 1867, um, that acreage had become, uh, 77,000 acres. so this is where, uh, Minnie Evans came in. She was born on the reservation in 1888, and as a girl, she was sent to a federal Indian boarding school in Lawrence. Uh, this was kind of [01:01:00] what you've heard- um, the story, you know, that, um, especially in Canada, but, but here in the US too, where we would take these kids and try to sort of force, you know-
Sydney Collins: Americanize
them
Gus Applequist: Americanize them, exactly. Um, but, but she did get a formal education, and eventually she would help to rebuild the tribal government. And in 1947, she was elected Tribal Chairwoman Which like, just think about that, 1947 a woman leading, you know, this major organization. Pretty cool. So then in 1953 Congress moved to basically remove the tribal, uh, recognition of the four tribes in Kansas at the time. Um, and so that meant that they would stop being recognized and they wouldn't have a reservation. And, and so, you know, even in '53 their sort of right to exist was being threatened. So Minnie got organized. She raised money to send people to Washington, and [01:02:00] then in 1954 she herself went and testified in front of congress.
Um, and, uh, she was helped fr- by the Kickapoo, uh, who actually drove her out there at, uh, They basically paid her expenses. And, uh, this group won. They defeated this effort and The Sac, The Fox, The Iowa and The Pottawatomie, uh, saved the, the reservations here in Kansas. So you know, th- there's, there's a lot more to the history of this tribe and we don't have time to get into all of that but, but it's still there.
And, um, they actually own ground in other states as well. Um, but it's headquartered just outside of Maietta in Jackson County. So I, I think, I think it's just an interesting history. We ... You know, you and I are from Saline County. We don't have, as, as many Native Americans here. And, and definitely don't have a reservation nearby, so this was enlightening to read about.
Sydney Collins: Cool.
Holton Telescope Surprise
---
Gus Applequist: My, my half thing, the last thing I wanna tell you about, um, is... [01:03:00] I, I gotta be nerdy, you know? It's- Okay. We've talked, we've hit on it a little bit but we... Um, so Holton, uh, the county seat has about 3,400 people. You know, a town, a courthouse square, a WPA swimming pool from 1938 and a 24 inch research telescope.
Sydney Collins: What?
Gus Applequist: So there is a science center there and apparently back in 2003 a teacher named Mike Ford gave a talk to the high school alumni association about a little observatory he had built next to the football field. Afterwards, an alum of the school offered to help him find money and they eventually got connected with, uh, US Senator Pat Roberts who got even more funding towards this.
And they were able to actually move this whole operation out to the Banner Creek Reservoir, uh, where there's better dark sky. And they built like a research grade remotely operated 24 inch telescope. And it's... I, I, you know, Tanner you're, you're fairly well versed in, in [01:04:00] astronomy locally. Did you know there was a telescope?
No. I didn't either. Um, so that's just kinda cool- um, that that's there and kind of random too.
Sydney Collins: That
is kinda
cool.
Gus Applequist: So I think, you know, all of this just proves the point as we say again and again that you can throw a dart anywhere at Kansas- there's something ... and you'll find some stories.
Next Dart and Wrap Up
---
Gus Applequist: So, uh, would you like to?-
Sydney Collins: Now I need
to throw a dart at Kansas.
All right .
Gus Applequist: All right, I'm gonna give my normal, uh, uh... Sydney is approaching. She has the dart in hand. She's checking her footwork. Um, uh, okay. Here comes the windup, and the throw. Okay. Oh, wow. Wow. We are in, western Kansas, uh, close to the interstate, just south of the interstate. Somewhere, like, Ellis-ish Joaquini? South of Ogalla Ogallala Ogallala, excuse me. Between WaKeeney and Hays. Okay, so that will be, uh, the next place we'll go for dartography. Trego? West, west of Ellis. Trego. Trego. County. Have I been saying Tr- Trego County wrong? Is it [01:05:00] Tree-go? I call it Trego. Okay, we're gonna have to settle this,
uh, how to-
Sydney Collins: We'll have to figure out how everything is pronounced.
But it's even... It's bl- more like between Ellis and WaKeeney.
Gus Applequist: Okay. Well, you've reached the end of another episode of Ask a Kansan.
I gotta catch my breath.
Okay, I'll take it. Uh, check out our website, AskaKansan.com where you can find past episodes of the show. You can also find our newsletter Curious Kansan where Tanner goes out and, uh, tells other great stories about Kansas. Ask a Kansan is a production of Fili Creative based here in Salina, Kansas. Uh, w- our show is produced by, uh, our great team here in studio. We've got Tanner, our story producer, Julie, our producer. We've got a technical director Merlin, our editor Brian, our graphic designer Austin. Austin. And, uh, and of course me and Sydney here as well.
Thanks to Everyday Lights for the use of our theme song Horse Thief Canyon. And hope you tune in again [01:06:00] some time soon to learn more about Kansas.