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Long Game: A Heated Rivalry Podcast is a re-watch and deep-dive podcast dedicated to Heated Rivalry, hosted by Declan and Silvan. In each episode, we revisit key moments across the series, unpacking the slow-burn tension, character development, and emotional beats that make the heated rivalry world so compelling. Through thoughtful discussion, close reading, and a fan-informed lens, we explore themes of competition, intimacy, identity, and growth over time, celebrating not just the heat of the rivalry, but the long game it takes to truly understand these characters and their relationship.
New episodes published every Sunday
Declan (00:00)
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Long Game A Heat It Rivalry podcast. My name is Declan and this is Sylvan. And today we are going to be discussing part ten of the Heat It Rivalry book. We are finally at the cottage within the book. We are finally here and it is time to discuss some of the best moments from both.
T V show and the book. There is quite a lot in this chapter. Selvan, I can imagine you're overwhelmed with this one.
Silvan (00:29)
Have so many notes.
Declan (00:32)
Sulvan has many notes, so we'll not waste any time because we're known for fixating on one chapter at a time. So Sulvan, what did you think of this one?
Silvan (00:41)
So I actually found this chapter to be one of the funniest in the book so far.
And you get these really funny moments from Ilya and it just reminded me how well Rachel Reed writes comedy. I think she writes comedy better than she writes drama.
Declan (01:01)
Yeah, I mean she definitely has a lot of fun in these chapters and I think this is her finally being able to like drop a bit more of the series tone and to have a bit of fun with these characters because they've basically admitted to each other now that like we're here to have a good time and they enjoy each other's companies. There is no ulterior motives, there's just me and you and we're just gonna see what it's like to hang out. And they're having an absolute blast. They're having a great time together.
And it leaves more time for levity to come into the story. And I think it was really missing there for a while because Shane obviously had his accident and I was quite serious. Ilya was all up in his feelings, he didn't quite know what to do, and then the drama of Scott and Kip Kiss and Will I Won't I Go to the Cottage. So finally we're getting some lighter moments and Rachel Reed has some top tier humor in this one and Jacob Tierney has done a lot of it just line for line, especially.
Stupid Canadian Wolfbird, which I think is just so perfectly delivered in the book especially. It's just so funny.
Silvan (02:02)
We're gonna get to that definitely. And actually whilst you as you were talking, it sort of made me think the book is quite serious for the majority of it. Like I feel like now, like you said, we're getting the levity, we're getting the lightness, and we're getting the sort of the grounding, like, okay, they're in a relationship, this is probably going to work out. And I can't help but think about what if Rachel started with some of the lightness, with some of the comedy to start with.
I imagine there are MM romance books out there that have started lighter in the beginning.
Declan (02:38)
Yeah, s the best comparison I can really think of is the Puckboy series by Saxon James and Eden Finley. They're very lighthearted books. like the characters are quite funny, a lot of the dialogue's quite funny. but then I suppose there's a tonal issue then if you start off really funny and then you go serious for like the majority of the book then. Like it's gonna feel a little off or a little strange, but
I do think Ilya does well in terms of humor and things like that throughout the book anyway. He's definitely the one that has the most one liners. And then Shane's neuro neurotic ways is quite funny they read as well. But it feels now that we're getting them fully relaxed and like fully in sort of like playful mode now, I think.
Silvan (03:27)
I I hear what you're saying, because as they relax, we relax as readers as well.
Declan (03:31)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (03:32)
We get to just slow down a little and sort of savour these little moments here.
Declan (03:39)
Yeah.
A hundred percent. Yeah. And these are the ones that make the relationship feel authentic. This is the real sort of convincing people that these two are gonna work together and that these two have a existing relationship that's now allowed to blossom. And that's I think really sweet, but also important for storytelling as well, to make the relationship believable.
Silvan (04:02)
Definitely. And I mean the chapter starts off with, you know, why the fuck are you making eight burgers? you can't do math, cut it in half. And Shane says, Leave me alone. And it's so lovely how it's written in the book. I mean it's depicted really well in the TV show, of course, but in the book
Declan (04:20)
Yeah.
Silvan (04:21)
it's Rachel writes, he kissed him behind the ear. No, he murmured.
Jacob has literally taken this now. I think we talked about in the last episode. He's not adapting too much and changing too much now. It's it feels like it's a direct from the book kind of adaptation.
Declan (04:40)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I think that's a good indication of his talent as a sort of showrunner, as someone who's doing an adaptation. Like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Not everyone wants your spin on everything. They want the parts of the story that work really well. I do find that a lot of adaptations like are overzealous with how many liberties they take, to the point where, you know, they're forgetting what made the writing of that medium good.
and just taking out whatever parts that they personally find interesting and then leave out the parts that everyone else likes. so yeah, Jacob Tierney seems to have a very good eye for what things change, what should be remained the same and what things could be built upon and expanded upon. whereas a lot of other adaptations struggle with that. one that comes to mind like recently, I don't know if you've watched Avatar The Last Airbender.
It's basically like one of the best animated shows ever made, one of the best TV shows ever made. and it's being adapted into like live action at the moment by Netflix. And it's just a bad adaptation to it is because it abandons so many elements of the source material that worked very strongly. The writing in the show is incredibly strong to begin with, but then upon the adaptation, so much gets lost in the effort of you know.
giving it a bit of a spin or doing things slightly differently and then it just gets lost in the sauce completely. And all those great elements that you could appreciate from the original content are just gone. And they're trying to shoehorn on certain jokes that aren't working or trying to adapt scenes to include gags from the show that haven't been set up in this adaptation. And it's it's just very messy. But in Heather Revelry there is a very, very consistent
way in which Jacob Tierney works that honors the source material and honors what was good about it in the first place.
Silvan (06:39)
Do you think that's because it's a Netflix show and ego there's a lot more pressure from the studio to make a show a specific kind of way for Avatar, for example?
Declan (06:51)
Yeah, there's definitely truth in that. Obviously Avatar is also CGI heavy, because it's a cartoon and cartoons have no limitations. they have budgets, but the budget only limits the quality of the animation you can make. Whereas with CGI like if you're relying on it to tell the entire story, like I don't think it works and I think
We're seeing this with these superhero films coming out, like no one's excited anymore because it's literally just actors stood on a green screen, sometimes acting with themselves and nobody else is even in the room with them. but yes, when it's a big production and it's a very important medium and an important property that Netflix have probably spent a lot of money purchasing. And then obviously you have outrageous astronomical budgets going on the over a hundred million for a TV show. yeah.
The producers are gonna are gonna hover, so they are. They're gonna they're gonna wanna have input as to what they think works. But the problem is they're not the creatives. You need to trust that the person that you've decided to adapt this property is talented enough and has a strong enough vision to make it work with the resources that you've given them. But this is where a lot of Netflix shows and a lot of Hollywood projects fail, is when they
kind of want to give it to somebody but they also don't want to give it to them. I think I've used this analogy before. you know when I pay a mechanic to fix my car, I don't go over then to the garage and start hovering with the mechanic and tell him what he should and shouldn't be doing because I don't have a fucking clue. I'm not a mechanic. I'm literally paying the guy to do this job and yet why am I over here trying to tell him how to do it? So it's about trusting your sort of creative team and who you've hired to take on your projects.
And Jacob Tierney seems to have earned that trust. And in fact, he fought to have his vision of the show as close to what he wanted as possible, to the point where he had to shop it around sort of multiple sources, multiple different streaming sources, for it to be picked up by someone who would be willing to honour his vision of what he imagined for the show. And that happened to be Crave. And look what a great outcome they've had as a result of that. It's their most popular show that they've ever done. So
You know, trust your creatives.
Silvan (09:13)
I love that analogy, you know, the mechanic one, because it's true and equally I don't want to know how to fix my car, I just want someone to fix it and deliver something to me.
Declan (09:21)
Yeah. I don't have
time for that shit.
Silvan (09:25)
I saw another article, and when I say article, I always mean a TikTok. So what I saw what I saw was there are lots of hockey shows in development. And this creator was saying, I think they've missed the point of Heated Rivalry. It's not that we need more hockey
Declan (09:42)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (09:42)
shows, we need more
gay shows that are of good quality. And I thought that was a really
Declan (09:48)
Yes.
Silvan (09:49)
interesting point for them to make.
Declan (09:51)
Yes. Make me a gay romance with the quality of a HBO original. Like that's what I want. I want a proper deep dive love story with all the angst, all the yearning that you can possibly ask for, and do it to a proper quality. Take it as seriously as a heart attack. The content itself doesn't necessarily need to be
Make overly dark. It doesn't need to be a whole thing about how terrible gay people have everything all the time. It can just be a love story. But tell it with authenticity and with effort and artistic intent. Then you will get me on your side and I will watch any gay show you want.
Silvan (10:33)
Completely.
And when we come back to this chapter, one thing that I noticed very early on was a similarity to the T V show, but done very differently in the book. So in the T V show, Shane
And Ilya are having a conversation about you know Shane's mum and his dad, and he has the joke about McGill and what the fuck is McGill. And in the TV show, I think there's a moment of tension where I can't remember if it's Shane or Ilya, one of them says something, and Ilya pulls his hand away from Shane's lap or his leg.
Declan (11:07)
Mm.
Silvan (11:08)
And in the book, it's still there, but it's a little bit different. Shane says, My parents are awesome.
Turning his attention back to the grill. Seriously, they're the best. And Ilya says, Maybe I will meet them someday. And Shane freezes. And I thought this is the equivalent for me. Like I feel like
Declan (11:25)
Yeah.
Silvan (11:27)
Jacob really saw that, took it and changed it in such a way.
Declan (11:32)
Yeah, to make it less sort of direct. And also like how do you portray an actor to go, okay, and then you freeze? Like does he just go like
Silvan (11:44)
Right.
Declan (11:45)
if it's a cartoon you can sort of go like an anime character, but like whenever it's like a real life acting, like it's kinda like hard to just look at someone just sitting staring at something and calling that freezing. So that was like a clever way of delivering the same message, but
by like showing it in a different way, like the hand pulling away. It's like it's a sign of like fear. It's like, I'm not hundred percent sure about this. It's it's a hesitation. And that's essentially what Shane did in the book. The freezing is is Shane hesitating. It's him going, Whoa, hold on Because he's not really thought about this. It's not really occurred to him, which is kinda shocking. But
Silvan (12:23)
You You are so right there. I love that you said that because he hasn't thought about it. Because here Ilya says, you know, you can tell your parents that you're gay without telling them the names of the men you're fucking.
Declan (12:37)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (12:38)
There is this fear from Shane, there's still this hesitation. I mean, Rachel writes this story and we're thinking, right, we're there with these two men, we're locked in, we're good to go, but she's still teasing us with the tension.
Declan (12:51)
Hmm, yeah. And I like that Ilya's so blunt about it. It's like you don't need to tell them you're fucking. It's like trying to point out to Shane that this is not as big a deal as you think it is. If your parents are so loving and so great, then they should accept you for who you are, even if you don't want to tell them that it's me. And it's funny can you imagine Ilya thinking that for a second? Because what Ilya's essentially saying in that is that, you know, I know that
The real issue is that you don't want them to know that you're with me, but like you can tell them that you're gay, it's fine. And like what does that make him assume about himself, about how Shane views him? It's a wee bit sad, it's like, you're obviously just looking to have a fun time with me and whatever, like you're obviously just trying to figure out that you're gay and this is the real mission for you, and I'm just like, yeah, the dirty secret. Like it's a bit sad.
Silvan (13:44)
It is, and as as soon as you said that I was thinking about the all American reject song Dirty Little Secret, that was just playing in my head the whole time. Because you're right,
Declan (13:51)
Yeah.
Silvan (13:54)
it it communicates to Ilya that, you know, tell your parents about you. They deserve to know. You deserve to tell them. You don't have to tell them
Declan (14:02)
Mm, yeah.
Silvan (14:04)
it's me. But what kind of level of rejection is that still? It's like, Mom, Dad, I'm gay, but I'm not gonna tell you it's Ilya Rosanoff.
Declan (14:13)
Yeah, because that's worse.
Silvan (14:17)
And you're right, it is worse because that's what I get from this chapter. I get that, you know, Shane thinks he's like, Yeah, I could probably tell my parents that I'm gay, you know, but there's something that Rachel writes here is she says,
Declan (14:26)
Yeah.
Silvan (14:32)
and then the world would know. But more importantly, his parents would know. They would know that their son was gay, and that their son was being gay with Ilya Rosanoff. That's the worst bit. It's being gay with Ilya.
Declan (14:45)
Yeah. And I think this these next couple of chapters are really about Shane, like learning to view things from Ilya's perspective and to finally address some of these fears.
This is the start of a doubt within Ilya of Shane's intentions. And like it's very sad for him. Like, can you imagine keeping your partner in shame just because of who they are and how people perceive you? It's a deeply upsetting thing to do to somebody, and I think in the book it's a bit more glossed over. And I I'm hoping that the show
delves into in a bit more detail about, you know, how this would actually impact somebody. Because as you get into long game then you get Ilya's perspective quite a lot and you do see that this kind of thing is hurtful and it's not good for a guy who has for much of his life been refused love, especially after the death of his mother, and been implied to be never good enough, especially for his father. Like there is a whole lot of baggage in terms of Ilya and he needs a lot of reassurance.
And this is not a reassuring act to want to hide him like this. But I also understand from Shane's point of view too that this is very messy and it's a messy situation and Shane does not deal with situations like this very well. and that is like that's not bad writing, that's his character flaw. And I know a lot of people think I hate Shane, I don't. But like you also need to acknowledge that Shane is a flawed character and need to talk about his flaws.
Because yeah, he is absent of empathy for Ilya in many different aspects of life where it's not done out of a malicious place, but it is done out of ignorance and a lack of perspective. whereas Ilya seems a bit more of a thoughtful person in that sense. he's more reactive, so he is, and sometimes
Silvan (16:48)
Hmm.
Declan (16:48)
he reacts badly. but he is also more thoughtful in terms of like how is this gonna make other people feel. So yeah, messy boys, messy, messy boys.
Silvan (16:59)
And I agree, and I know we've talked previously in other episodes about how this is Shane's story. And yes, especially
Declan (17:06)
Mm.
Silvan (17:07)
in these last few chapters, this is Shane's realization, is coming out, is telling other people, him trying to be okay with it and grappling with that as he should. That's a very valid story to tell. Now
We've seen this story being told hundreds of times in other shows, in other books. And I'm not it's not to say that I'm bored of it, but here I really want to know what's going through Ilya's mind. Why is the narrator not Ilya? Because I want to know what that means for him, like on that psychological level, to be rejected, to be exploring this relationship, thinking about, you know, how does this continue? How does this go on? But
These micro rejections, they have a lasting impact.
Declan (17:56)
Mm. Yeah. And I don't think Shane realizes that. realizes how much Ilya really needs to hear that Shane doesn't view him that way and that he does love and respect him and that he does view him as a worthy person to be with. 'cause right now there's a lot of shame in relation to this relationship, like a lot of shame. and obviously Shane is having to deal with that internally in the shame of his sexuality and he's not addressing that.
Which I think is a really important part of Shane's mother being in the TV show more actively. because that is the re that is the resolution of the shame he feels around his sexuality is in relation to her character. but in the book, you know, it has nowhere to kinda go, except between the two of them. And I think that that is deliberate that you don't get Ilya's perspective in this, because this part of the story does seem to be very much Shane and it's Shane's ignorance.
in the way that he behaves in some time in some ways and his the fact that he is not really noticing certain ways that Ilya is reacting. Like
When Ilya says, you know, you can just tell your parents you're gay, you don't need to tell them who they're fucking. Like, what does it say Shane reacts to that or how did he take that from Ilya?
Silvan (19:24)
So Shane's response to that is I know, I know, but Shane sighed. Forget it. It doesn't matter. Let's eat these burgers before they get cold.
Declan (19:37)
Avoidant. Avoiding. So he is. And the way Ilya says that, Shane doesn't remark upon it. So he's not reading the fact that Ilya, first of all, he cursed. And he said it in a blunt, direct way, which meant that usually when Ilya behaves like that, he's hurt. From the examples that we've had in the book, when he's being really direct and really blunt with somebody.
He has like a point to make and he usually does it from a point of pain. And so I read that, but Shane doesn't comment on the way that Ilya delivers that or the way that he perceived that. He just glosses over it and gets stuck in his head and then just wants to avoid the whole thing. And doesn't want talk about it. Like from Ilya's perspective, perhaps if we had that, he would go, Those words really hurt, and so I three it back in his face. Why don't you just fing me if I'm so fucking awful? Like Yeah. There's
A lot unspoken here in this this little moment between the two of them. like a real struggle with Shane's sense of shame in relation to his sexuality and Ilya. and the two of them just seem to want to avoid it for now. Well, Shane won't say avoid it for now.
Silvan (20:55)
Yeah, it's almost like they're playing pot potato and just passing it on to each other. And
Declan (20:59)
Mm.
Silvan (20:59)
there is a sense of almost acceptance from Ilya, I feel, because afterwards Rachel writes, Ilya wanted to push him to say more, but instead he just followed Shane to the table.
So he knows he wants to push, but he knows he's not going to get what the response he wants from Shane in that moment. And there's almost
Declan (21:25)
Yeah.
Silvan (21:25)
this this resignation, almost this what's the point?
Declan (21:31)
Yeah. Like Ilya is used to being let down and he is used to people not really addressing their feelings in a way it's healthy or but he's ultimately a very straightforward, blunt person. But he is withholding himself a little bit here to ensure that Shane has enough breathing room because he knows that Shane can address it in that moment in time. But like how far and how long can you avoid this stuff?
And how much is Ilya actually helping by allowing Shane to avoid it? I think this is why in like a later part then of the cottage that Ilya does this roundabout way of basically saying, Why shouldn't I just get married to someone else if you're so disinterested in me? I think this is a that's the push that Ilya's given. He's just been a bit more clever about it than he usually is.
Silvan (22:25)
Hmm. I think you're right. And I think, you know, Ilya being let down is such a recurring thing. I was driving earlier today and was listening to Ren and Lizzie's podcast on the monologue. And
Declan (22:38)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (22:39)
it just reminded me about how much Ilya is there to take care of other people. You know, take care of his father, take care of his brother, take care of his sister in law,
and make sure people are fed and clothed and housed, but no one ever asks Ilya what he needs, and in fact, Ilya continues this type of behavior with Shane to a certain extent. So when Shane comes to his apartment, he makes sure Shane is fed tuna melt,
Declan (23:08)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (23:09)
I think Ren and Lizzie were talking about how I think at least in the TV show, Shane borrows some of Ilya's clothes. So he's clothed.
Declan (23:16)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (23:17)
He's made sure that, you know, the ginger ale is there, he's comfortable. Ilya is a perpetual caretaker, but the one thing that people don't realize about people taking care of others is it's exhausting. And sometimes
Declan (23:31)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (23:32)
you don't realize that until you're burnt out.
Declan (23:35)
Yeah, yeah. And it does seem to be a role that he fell into perhaps after his mother passed. I think there might be someone said that Ilya is the one that takes up the maternal role in the family. which is a an aspect I never considered before, that he perhaps did take up that mantle of the family care, the the homemaker, the the one that deals with the sort of domestic issues within the home, which
in Russia at that time would have been the traditional role of his mother. like has his father done that deliberately? Has has he turned him into that? Is that why he resents him? Is is this all tied into his sexuality and how he perceives Ilya and his masculinity because he's taken on the the role of the caretaker? Like there's there's quite a lot in that that would tell me that they all need to go to family therapy, but
Yes, it is a hundred percent true that Ilya does take on the role of a caretaker. I'm glad you picked up on that.
Silvan (24:39)
That's really interesting take. I had a different take on that, in that I feel like, yes, Ilya does take on that maternal role, and you know, and especially in in a lot of families, you know, the the main female sort of or or or the mother takes on the role of being the glue of the family in a way, at least in some families
Declan (24:56)
Mm.
Silvan (24:57)
that I'm familiar with. But I also feel like here Ilya takes on a very paternal role. So he's the main breadwinner for literally the whole family.
So he's there's the dual role he's playing, but that role is also absent because he's not in Russia. He's in you know, he's in the States. So it's almost like he's providing them their lifestyle, that financial freedom, without having to deal with anyone on a day-to-day basis. And I know in the monologue, you know, in the T V show he's he says, Ilya says, he wanted to be there for his father, but he just couldn't.
Declan (25:34)
Yeah, yeah. Because it's his natural instinct to help his family out, to care for them, to look after them. And he is put in a position where he can only do it more effectively by continuing to play hockey and by continuing to send the money home. Like he couldn't make up for that loss of income if he went home to look after his father directly and so he made a decision. which has made him grow resentful.
And he is resentful, he's resentful of his father, he's resentful of his brother. he is I think resentful of his mum for dying. I think that's something that does seem to be underneath the surface here is he is constantly on the defensive for her. and you're only defensive because you think someone's done something wrong. And yeah, it's it's a complicated thing.
So it is and where does Shane fall into that? Is Shane being is Shane caretaking the caretaker? I don't think so. I don't even think he's aware of the way that Ilya is doing this and does this for people. And he by the way, just a quick weefing bus before I let you respond. Ilya does this through all the books. Anytime he shows up, he is there as someone who is helping. Just
adding that on.
Silvan (27:05)
Interesting. Okay. And we will go through the rest of the books. I know we've had a couple of questions and a couple of comments. We are going through the rest of the books.
Because if you think about Shane, he's an only child, and I'm not saying all single child families are like this, but Shane has not really struggled, let's be honest. He's grown up in a very nice family. He's grown up pretty affluent as well, from what I can see. Shane hasn't had to consider other people's needs.
Ever, I don't think. He's had two parents showing him direct love and attention. He hasn't had to share. Like, I'm sorry, but anyone who grew up with a sibling knew what sibling rivalry looked like. You know, you were competing for your parents' affection, you're competing for when it was dial up internet for internet access. There was no Wi-Fi back then in the day. So you fought your sibling
Declan (27:59)
Yeah.
Silvan (28:00)
for everything. You fought about how much Coca-Cola you had in two identical glasses.
Let's be honest.
Declan (28:07)
Yeah, there's many a fight over the TV remote after we got home from school that I can remember. And trying to do that amongst five people was an intense exercise. You're right, a hundred percent. Like his only childness definitely contributes to the way that he behaves. Like I would say Shane has lived quite a privileged life. he has two parents who are together.
From the signs of it, there is no indication of any suffering of any grief. he in the TV show, his mother runs his life for him. He doesn't need to worry about any of that. he has two parents that adore and love him. And there is seems to be very little conflict between them. Like he has lead led a almost picture perfect life up to this point. And so
Yeah, he's probably not used to having to deal with people's needs other than his own. And even then, people are used to doing it for him. And I don't think if if he if he had to been such a type A person, I don't think he would be as proactive as he is. just having having lived the life that he did, which is the opposite of Ilya. Ilya's had the complete opposite experience and he is a type B person who's had to step up and become a type A, you could almost say.
to be organized and put together and to be the one that has to take control and do all these things. Yeah, it's very interesting. It does go to show that in a lot of ways they are polar opposites and you could see why people would be like, Mm, how are you two together?
Silvan (29:46)
Right, and this is for me why Ilya is the more interesting character of the two for me. I know we're gonna get a lot of comments and a lot of hate because apparently we don't like Shane for a lot of the episodes. We do like Shane. I'm gonna say some nice stuff about Shane in a moment, but when you were talking about type A and type B, you're right. I get the impression that in the TV show Shane is a type A. In the book, not so much. I don't get that impression. I get more of a jock.
kind of vibe from Shane in the book that I
Declan (30:18)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (30:18)
don't get in the TV show. So it's interesting how, you know, we can still categorize them, but I'm not sure those categories I think those categories are a little blurred.
Declan (30:30)
Yeah, I think it's because Jacob Tierney is writing with the hindsight of the long game, which is an objectively better book than Heat at Rivalry. I'm just putting that out there. I don't care about your opinions, it's true. He did it at Rivalry was an earlier book for Rachel Reed. She wasn't as accomplished a writer, and Long Game is a much better book and the characters are much better in it. And Shane's traits, character traits, the sort of type A personality part of him is very much
developed correctly in the long game compared to Heat at Rivalry. He is much more of a a personality. He is much more sort of stable as a character. You can understand him more. and Jacob Tierney is able to do now writing the Heat at Rivalry after that book has already come out. So that he is able to make Shane the character that he is in the long game in the Heat at Rivalry story. And that is such a blessing. So it is and it
Honestly, it's why I do believe that the show is better than the book. Because Jacob Tierney is able to write the characters at their best from how he knows them from the long game in the Heated Rivalry plot. So that's probably gonna get a few comments, but I I'd said it
Silvan (31:46)
You're in in a way I'm thinking Jacob Chenney is writing f with a finished story. I know we've got Unrivaled, which feels like more like an add-on rather than, you know, this is the complete
Declan (31:58)
Yeah.
Silvan (31:59)
sort of series. Jacob is using that hindsight, he's using these character developments th in the show and he's rooting that in season one, so that if they got a season two, I imagine, they can build on that.
I do want to say something nice about Shane because we're gonna get comments and I don't hate Shane. I don't I really do like Shane. I just think he's a little bit sheltered and do I want Ilya all for myself? Sure.
Declan (32:29)
I think this is more just the fact that Ilya is no longer single as a result of Shane that's annoying you more than anything else.
Silvan (32:34)
I
know he's off the market for good, like damn. but
Declan (32:39)
Ha ha ha.
Silvan (32:40)
in in Shane's defense, you know, after this happens, Shane does want Millia to meet his parents. You know, and he says this. He says, Rachel writes, he was obsessed with the idea. He couldn't even form a clear thought as to why it was so important to him. You know, he imagines benign scenarios where they were just at a function, maybe the NHL awards, and Shane just casually says
Mum, Dad, have you met Ilyo Rosanov? He's wanting this. It's not just one
Declan (33:09)
Yeah.
Silvan (33:09)
sided.
Declan (33:10)
Yeah. This is the thing. He does very deeply love Ilya and he is in love with Ilya, no doubt, but he's just so out of touch with his feelings and Ilya's feelings about the whole matter that he is not able to verbalize it correctly. And so sometimes he just comes out and says stuff that's really off the cup and is completely thoughtless and can be really hurtful. but he's not doing it out of maliciousness and this is what I mean, like when I'm talking about
Shane, in this way, it's because he's actually a well-written character. He is a character with flaws. His flaws is he doesn't fucking think before he speaks and he isn't self-aware of the people around him, which is ironic because that's the opinion that most people have of Ilya, which proves to be untrue. Ilya is way more thoughtful than most other people. He is considerate of other people's feelings. If he doesn't like you, he has no problem telling you. Whereas Shane is avoidant in that sense. So it's funny that.
Their internal roles are completely switched in that sense. Like Shane's the golden boy, he's the good one, he's the good guy, he's this and he's all that. He's also incredibly faultless, says things that he shouldn't say out loud, and he can sometimes hurt people without meaning to do it. Ilya has the opposite. He's a bad boy, he has a big mouth, he says this and he says that. He is one of the most emotionally intelligent and thoughtful people in the book. He is
really conscious of the way in which he treats people that are vulnerable. Particularly like people like the like the rookies he meets and things like that there. Like he's always kind to them when they're kind to him. And it's funny that they're like you know, public personas are so different from who they feel they are as people. It's just curious observation. I feel like I am like an Ilya fanboy or something at this point. I'm sorry. Like we're not trying to hate on Shane.
Silvan (35:00)
We're not, but if you think about at face value, okay, if these two characters were real life people, at
Declan (35:06)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (35:07)
face value, who would you one be attracted to or approach?
Declan (35:15)
So obviously probably attracted to both. I would feel
I'm a bit more drawing people that are a bit more complicated. Does that make sense?
Silvan (35:27)
That makes sense. But would you know Ilya's complicated at face value not knowing
Declan (35:30)
Yeah, a hundred percent, yeah.
Yeah, big personality, big thing. Like Yeah. I think I would, yeah. Shane as well though, I feel like I could sit down and have a conversation with Shane and he would be very nice and it would be a nice exchange, but Ilya would be like, This is a very interesting you're a very interesting person. Like I wanna know more about you. Where Shane I'm like, you're kinda you are what you get.
Silvan (35:56)
Yeah, definitely. I feel like I would be intimidated to approach an Ilya type person in real life. I'm thinking about people
Declan (36:04)
Mm.
Silvan (36:05)
that like I've maybe dated or or approached like at a bar or something like that. I wouldn't approach Ilya at a bar. I would be really intimidated by that.
Declan (36:15)
Really? That's interesting. Is that because you would
Silvan (36:17)
Yeah.
Declan (36:17)
assume that they're gonna like because obviously Ilya is more of a stereotypical jock, he's not afraid to poke fun at people. Is that sort of going back to being around that sort of environment and at the fear of being poked fun at and
Silvan (36:31)
I don't know, 'cause I played sports as a child, like growing up. So I was
Declan (36:33)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (36:34)
around that sort of atmosphere. I played multiple different sports and so I was kind of around that. But like if Ilya was at a bar, I'm not approaching him.
'Cause one, I'm probably afraid he's gonna reject me, but he just doesn't seem at face value as an approachable, nice person. Whereas Shane, I would a hundred percent approach at a boss.
Declan (36:56)
Yeah. 'Cause he seems friendly and he's open and polite and nice and Yeah. Which is all really good traits and really lovely traits to find in a person. There's someone very secure in that and like it's like a warm, welcoming environment. I don't know, maybe I just like a bit of chaos in my life.
Silvan (37:18)
If you think about it, like Shane would not reject you at at point at the first instance. Like even if he didn't like you, he would still talk to you. And in that way, Shane seems approachable. So even if you went up to him, he would still
Like engage in a conversation. Even if he didn't like you, he would still do that because he is the good boy, so it feels safer.
Whereas with Ilya, you get what you see. If he doesn't like you, he's going to make you know that.
Declan (37:44)
Hmm. I suppose you just gotta trust in your ability to be to be likable.
Silvan (37:50)
I have no game when it comes to like picking up men at bars or anything like that. Are you kidding me?
Declan (37:56)
I I don't know why, but like back when I was dating I had a like a strange amount of confidence. Like when it came to dating. I don't know where it comes from because like in general I'm not I wouldn't say I'm an overly confident person. But when it came to dating I just sort of I don't know. I want a thing. I hire you. What are you up to? And just sort of trust that you can have a back and forth. People are just people. I mean, no one's gonna bite your hand off. You might have a bit of an awkward exchange and it might not go well and then you walk away and go, Why?
Bye, hope never see you again. So no, I think yeah, just know that the world's not gonna end if someone doesn't like you. might just make you feel a bit crap for five minutes and then you just let it go and move on to the next person.
Silvan (38:41)
I feel like that's a really healthy way to think about it, but I also bet your prefrontal cortex wasn't developed at that point.
Declan (38:48)
No, probably not, no. Had a had a good like four years to develop left for that one. But it's funny, if you had a got me like a year before that phase, I wouldn't have been able to talk to anybody at all without being like wrote off drunk. Like yeah. Strange. I think I had a year in there where I just sorta I don't know. Had a bit of epiphanies and stuff. I don't know. Yeah. Anyway.
Silvan (39:14)
Worked out for the best.
Declan (39:15)
Worked out for the best, yeah.
Silvan (39:18)
And as we carry on in this chapter, again, we see the comedy here. You know, we get this scene where Shane says, Ilya, I'm gay. And the comedic delivery, Ilya says, not too gay to fuck Roselandry.
Declan (39:37)
Sometimes he's just such a petty bitch. Yeah.
Silvan (39:40)
But I love that because it's real.
Declan (39:43)
Yeah. It does it does feel like something like your partner would say to you to like just be a dick. It's something I would I would definitely say to my partner, I would definitely say that. Like I'm just thinking like something I would come out with. But like, mm yeah. Quick example.
He's learning Spanish at the moment, but he's going like to somewhere for like an hour a week to help be taught by like Spanish people in the area and whatever. And I and suddenly when he goes, I'm going to my Spanish class, I'm like, so you're going to meet your psychis? Is that is that what's happening? Yeah, that's okay. I know all about him. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Professor. Yeah. Sure. Be on your way.
Silvan (40:31)
Your Spanish side piece, I love that. That's good alliteration as well.
Declan (40:37)
Yeah, so I seen as soon as he said that I was like that
Silvan (40:41)
I knew there was a petty bitch in you there somewhere.
Declan (40:44)
I mean, you just gotta say it. like you need to voice every bad thought that you have, I think.
Silvan (40:52)
There you go. I think you're more like Shane than you think.
Declan (40:55)
Probably, yeah. I mean I definitely used to be. Yeah. I think I'm better at it than
Silvan (41:05)
but here again we see Ilya's fishing. So when when
Declan (41:09)
Mm.
Silvan (41:10)
Ilya says, you know, not too gay, you can fuck Roselandry, Shane talks about like I slept with her a couple of times. They were disasters. And Ilya is ecstatic. He grins. And you know, Shane is like, I'm not giving you the details, so shut it.
I didn't think Shane was going to be such a gentleman about it. Like I'm not gonna tell you how bad it went. Like I almost expected him, like, give me the tea, tell me how bad it is. But here, Ilya is fishing. He wants to know why it was bad. And he we know why it was bad, of course.
Declan (41:45)
Yeah, he's just trying to tease it out of him. He's just like, Yeah, I know why you didn't enjoy it. It was because of me, but I want you to admit that it was because of me. And yeah, it's also confirmation as well that Shane is more than likely just pure gay. He is just a gay guy and there's nothing more complicated than that about it. he tried it, didn't work out, and he's basically admitting that to Ilian now that yeah, I am gay. I know because that was
a disaster and it didn't feel good and it doesn't go well. which confirms to Ilya that Shane has basically only been sleeping with him this entire time and he's only enjoyed sex with him, which for some of an ego like his it's probably very nice to hear.
Silvan (42:30)
Do you know what? Elia's probably the only person who has allowed Shane to come hands free not once, but twice.
Declan (42:38)
Interesting. Yes. Yeah, true. I mean that's a that takes talent.
Silvan (42:42)
That's no easy feat.
Declan (42:43)
Yeah, it takes talent.
Silvan (42:45)
as we progress in the chapter we get the scene in the book where we hear the loon call. What were your thoughts on how that was delivered?
Declan (42:57)
I think in the book it's funnier. It's like it's drier, you can like hear his rambling is just it sounds more like he's also like taking the piss out of Shane as well. Like your stupid American wolf your Canadian wolfbird, so stupid. And it's almost like he's trying to make Shane laugh and there's something really cute and endearing about it and it makes you smile. yeah, it's just like such a fun moment.
between the two of them and I I do like it in the show. I think I just like it more in the book. I think I can picture it more vibrately in my head. It makes me laugh.
Silvan (43:31)
I agree, because it feels like it's a snapshot, a very brief snapshot in the show. Whereas I feel like in the book it feels fleshed out a little. I don't know why, but it feels more meaty in a way.
Declan (43:45)
Mm, yeah.
Silvan (43:46)
And just as we get all these really light comedic moments, Rachel slaps us in the face.
quite metaphorically with the details of how Ilya's mum has come to to die
And I thought the way she did this was quite interesting because she talks about, you know, there was a silence that was felt between them. And Shane says, I'm sorry. And he's and Ilya says, Why? And Shane says, Your family. My parents are so great. I wish you had that too. And this allows Ilya to talk about his mum. So this is his gateway, and he says, My mother was great too. And then he discloses about Ilya's mum's
Declan (44:29)
Yeah.
Silvan (44:29)
quote unquote accident.
Declan (44:31)
Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And that's like it's such an important part of their relationship and it's also like where Ilya has his biggest open wound. And he is like now fully opened himself to Shane. Like this is the last sort of step for him of vulnerability that he could make. And this is his greatest shame, it's his greatest secret, his biggest hurt.
and to be able to tell Shane that in this moment just goes to show how far they've come together. And it is quite sad for Ilya as well and you can tell that the way he talks about it, he I think there is shame there. There's fear of judgment, there is a sense that Ilya thinks that people perceive that what she did was wrong because I think deep down he perceives that what she did was wrong.
not because she wanted an end to pain, but because it caused him so much. it's quite a complicated mix of emotions for Rachel Reed the Juggle. And I think she does it really well. And I think that's why so much of this dialogue and this scene remains the same in the book from the T V show. 'cause yeah, it is it's seems to have been taken
Taken to fruition with a lot of care and a lot of a lot of thought. So yeah, I am glad that she she delivered in the way that she did.
Silvan (46:08)
I agree, and the biggest difference for me from the TV show to the book or from the book to the TV show rather, was in the TV show we get that scene where they're both outside on the bench or wherever they're sat, and Ilya is has got his head on Shane's lap, so there's no direct eye contact. And I thought that was really smart of Jacob to do, because this is a really heavy topic.
This is this is going to be hard for Ilya to talk about. And not having that direct eye contact, I feel, made it more palatable for him to talk about. Whereas in the book, they don't necessarily Rachel doesn't write their positioning, but the way I took it later on was that they were more facing each other. And so I feel like the body language is much, much different in in the book.
Declan (46:37)
Yeah.
Silvan (47:04)
And
It's interesting that you say like she she wrote it well now, and I agree, she wrote it well. She wrote it briefly. This is such a big part of Ilya's backstory that.
I feel like they could have spent more time.
Developing the not the dialogue. The dialogue was great. It was really well written, but the I want to know Ilya's inner thoughts here. We get it so much for Shane throughout the whole book, but when it comes to these really meaty moments for for Ilya, we don't get that.
Declan (47:30)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
It's not his book. Yeah,
Silvan (47:47)
But it shouldn't have to be his book for us to understand his point of view, like
Declan (47:52)
yeah. You can I suppose a lot of it is left to be rare between the lines.
about what may have happened. Like Ilya is deliberately keeping this brief. I think he is like he's getting it out. That's kind of the read that I got from it. It's like he's spitting it out. Like, I need you to know this and this is painful for me to talk about, so I'm gonna do this as fast as I can. so for me this is like Ilyah it's almost like a confession. It's like
like a word vomit, it's like it's out there. Like I need to tell you this thing. It's getting out. It is what it is. And okay, can we stop talking about it now? That's kinda that's the idea I got from it. That's the value I got from it. But I can also see why you want more details. I think your little therapy brain is running and you're going, let's delve into this, like let's talk it for how did that make you feel? What what what what were happening in those moments that that made you consider that and what was the impact of like you really wanna like help?
You wanna jump in and get the details and see what what we can do to help this guy. But he doesn't want that yet. He doesn't want that deep delve. He doesn't want too many questions. And I think he knows that Shane's not gonna do that. I think that's why he's comfortable saying it. Shane says what he needs to say and gives him the comfort that he's been seeking. And I like that it's in this intimate setting that it's probably somewhere that Ilya doesn't typically find himself in.
a place of security like this and that he's able to do it at all is sort of like a testament to how much he has opened up and being vulnerable to shame.
Silvan (49:25)
And you're right, there is this opening up because at one point Rachel writes Shane engulfed him in his arms and held him tight, letting Ilya bury his face in his shoulder. And it's at that point that Ilya discloses I don't want you to think she was weak. She wasn't. She was amazing, but she was so sad, and my father was so hard on her. And Rachel writes, you know, he didn't cry, not really. He wiped quickly at his eyes to remove the moisture and just breathed Shane in.
So there is this sort of physical comfort that we know these two men, you know, need from each other, which then
Declan (50:05)
Yeah.
Silvan (50:05)
leads to more depth, more revelations, more talking.
Declan (50:10)
Yeah, one hundred percent. It's a really great moment in the book, I think, and it's them finally offering each other like emotional affection without it needing to be associated with sex. And that I think is also worth noting as well, that none of this chapter is particularly focused on the like act of sex at all. It is just an an emotional intimacy instead.
It's that seems to be the main focus. The sex has kinda left on the wayside a little bit now. That's what it is. For the time being. For the time
Silvan (50:45)
Huh. Yeah.
Declan (50:46)
being, don't worry, it makes a makes a r a huge comeback. But for the time being, it's much more about the emotional intimacy at this point.
Silvan (50:58)
Yeah, and I wanted to pick your brains because I think you're right. The reason why I want more is because I have a vested inf interest in in grief. And obviously from therapy, from a therapeutic point of view, I want to know more. I want to know what he's thinking.
Declan (51:09)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (51:10)
But Rachel ends this chapter on a lighter note here. So we see
Declan (51:14)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (51:14)
the this roller coaster that she writes, and you know, the the chapter ends with, and then another fucking loon screamed over their heads, and both men completely lost it. Now, when I read it the first time, I was like
that's a nice way to finish. And you
Declan (51:30)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (51:30)
know, that that's really neatly wrapped up. And okay, let's go on to the next chapter. Like,
Declan (51:34)
Yeah.
Silvan (51:34)
I'm happy. And then I reread and I was like, no. I wasn't happy with the way it ended. So and maybe
Declan (51:41)
Well I we still
fifty five minutes of this therapy session left.
Silvan (51:46)
Exactly.
Exactly. And speaking from a psychodynamic point of view, I think this is where I'm really pulling from. when a therapy client comes to you and you're working within that sort of psychotherapeutic modality, when there is a difficult or heavy moment,
You're encouraged or taught to stay in the discomfort because it's in that discomfort that other things will lead out from. And in my experience, when that's happened, when I've used different therapeutic models, you know, you you make a joke or you move on to the next thing because it's the discomfort that feels uncomfortable, not just for the therapist, but also for the client as well. And so here I'm thinking.
Why isn't she sitting in the discomfort? Because it's from there that I would learn a lot more out of it. And it's almost like she's trying to alleviate the sense of heaviness, the discomfort, because that's not where the story is going to go or sit with. But that's where I'm interested.
Declan (52:56)
Yeah, I think this is where we need to keep in mind that Shane is the boyfriend and not the therapist.
Typically people go to therapy because there are things that they cannot say to others within their life without them feeling like they can't trust their reaction or they don't want them to be hurt, feel bad for them, or they don't want to be embarrassed or feel ashamed and they will reveal certain information to people they're close with, but they will not reveal everything. And some things that people have said to me in the counselling room, they have said after, like I've never told anyone that.
Like it is a different dynamic, it's a different relationship. And so there are elements that maybe Ilya can feel safe talking about with Shane and then there's other ones that he might not want to feel safe talking about just yet. Maybe he doesn't want to talk about it with anyone, no matter how much he loves and trusts them. It's just not something that he can voice to them. and that's a great thing about therapy. Like I imagine if you were his therapist then
you would have went deeper and you could have asked him to stay in it a little longer to get a bit more and to see if there was something within it that could lead to a different sort of turn of perspective or something to help him realise things about himself in the situation. but Shane, first of all, does not have the skills to do that. Like he can barely stop himself from saying the wrong thing most of the time.
But I think this is a good first step to wanting to talk about this more because keep in mind Ilya's probably not said this to anyone since he was twelve. Sabet Lana does not exist in the same way that she does in a TV show in this book. so that confidant is not there and so Ilya has no one. This is probably the first time that he said it aloud in so long. And I think that's a good enough moment to to carry off on. And then the Loon is just I think breaking the tension.
'Cause it got it got a little serious.
Silvan (55:06)
Mm. And I I I hear you, and I and I I I do genuinely hear you. And I think what I'm
Declan (55:12)
Yeah.
Silvan (55:12)
taking from this is like, yes, Shane is not the therapist, he's the boyfriend. But actually, my angst is with Rachel. Why aren't you writing this more differently?
Like, why aren't you sitting with this? So my beef is with Rachel, not Shane. Sh baby Shane doesn't know any better, let's be honest. He has not have a he's not had a struggle of a day in his life. But
As a writer,
Declan (55:36)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (55:37)
why aren't you going there? Why aren't you sitting with that? Where is Elia's point of view for fuck's sake? Like we get
Declan (55:43)
Mm.
Silvan (55:45)
this whole extra chapter from Vegas. Where was this chapter for this?
Declan (55:50)
Mm, yeah.
Silvan (55:52)
I think she does a disservice in my opinion.
Declan (55:59)
I torn because she's doing certain things for the purpose of the flow of the book and for keeping it on track for Shane, as in this Shane's part of the story. And I am also able to work from the knowledge that I have from the long game. So I know that she does retread a lot of the points that you're talking about. So at this point it's asking the question of whether or not she is doing this deliberately, as in she knows that she's going to address this and she knows that she's going to go into in a lot more detail in her next book.
Or is it like she is still inexperienced as a writer and she is leaving out details or missing opportunities that could be further expanded upon? Really the only one that can answer that question is Rachel Reed herself. I imagine she would say that she does intend, or she did intend at the time, to expand out the the story because by the time this book ends, like these guys aren't their story isn't wrapped up. So it's not it's not it's not concluded. And
Ilya showing up in other people's stories, it indicates to me that she did have a plan for this. so that may be a comfort to you, it may not, but that's that's my my thoughts on it.
Silvan (57:11)
I will trust the process and keep reading.
Declan (57:16)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, just enjoy the ride.
Silvan (57:20)
It's it's definitely a roller coaster.
Declan (57:22)
a hundred percent. Special it's just chapter. It's crazy.
Silvan (57:26)
And I know we've come towards the end of the chapter, and before we wrap up,
Declan (57:29)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (57:30)
I really wanna thank everyone who came out for our first meetup in Belfast over the weekend.
It was genuinely such a surprise and it was so lovely to meet some of you. And I have to say, Declan, when there are many Irish people together, you talk very fast.
Declan (57:49)
Yeah, it's completely unintentional, but yeah, if you ever hear me talking to my dad, for example, it is good luck. Honestly good luck trying to understand
Silvan (57:59)
Yeah, it did take me a while to keep up, but I was just genuinely thankful for everyone who came out. So thank you if you're listening.
Declan (58:07)
Thank you very much.
Well, that's all we have time for today. Thank you so much for joining us. We are getting so close to the end. This is crazy. And I'm really glad that you're all still following along. We're having such a good time picking apart this book. and we're really looking forward to, you know, reading more, continuing on and taking a deep dive into the other books as well in the Game Changer series. But
That's all the time we have for today. Don't forget to like, subscribe, leave a comment, of course, if you have any questions for us. Also, we're both on TikTok, we're both on Instagram. Make sure you check those out. You'll find the links to them somewhere around here. and also check out our fable, which is our book club. It's called the Long Game Pod Book Club. And it is currently finished, the heated rivalry stuff, but
There is like still groups that you can join for that within the book club to keep discussing it and discussing certain things you liked about it. But also we're still reading and we're reading lots of different MM romance books. At the minute we're reading Echoes of Us by Alex Cross, which is a fantastic hockey or not hockey, sorry, volleyball romance, which is brilliant. so make sure you join that and join in the discussion. There are really, really fun discussions happening on that and I would love you to be a part of that too. So
I'll leave it there though. Thank you so much for joining us. We'll see you next time.