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Gerard Deane and Paul Gosling host a new series of podcasts - explainers of some of the challenging issues that our society faces of promoting a wider, more inclusive and engaged conversation about how we make progress and further solidify peace and create a genuinely shared and integrated society in Northern Ireland. Holywell Trust is curating a discussion that is mutually respectful, forward focused and positive. The podcast considers the real challenges that Northern Ireland's society faces in the coming years and begins to arrive at practical and honest approaches to address these.
S4 Episode 11
Gerard Deane: [00:00:00] Welcome to the latest in the series of the Holywell Trust Conversations podcast that consider some of the most challenging problems that we face in our society in Northern Ireland, and especially in the Northwest of Ireland. I'm Gerard Deane from Holywell Trust. We're a peace and reconciliation charity from Derry, joined as ever by local journalist Paul Gosling.
Paul, how's things?
Paul Gosling: They are perfect Gerard.
Gerard Deane: Perfect. It's a quare state to be in. Good on you. Okay. So Paul. The series to date has looked at a wide variety of concerns, which have included funding of the sector, the community voluntary sector, the continuing unwanted role of paramilitary organisations in our society, and the whole range of other things, including dumping illegally and all types of things.
But today we're talking about the regeneration of Derry's two landmark development sites, Fort George and Ebrington. So there's been a lot of criticism of slow progress with Fort George still largely vacant and Ebrington [00:01:00] only now really coming to vibrant life. Can you give us a bit of a brief history on this Paul, perhaps starting with Ebrington?
Paul Gosling: Yeah, thanks Gerard. The former Ebrington Barracks, which have also been known at one time as HMS Sea Eagle, were gifted to the Northern Ireland Executive as part of the Reinvestment and Reform Initiative in May 2002. So for Ebrington, this is a process of 21 years. Now the other sites that were handed over alongside Ebrington at that time, were Maze Long Kesh, Crumlin Road Jail and the Barracks at Magherafelt and Malone Road in Belfast.
Gerard Deane: Okay, so where are we now?
Paul Gosling: Now there's been a lot of criticism of slow progress, but things at Ebrington have speeded up recently, especially with the Ebrington Hotel opening in the summer of this year. And now there are also bars and cafes and offices that have opened around the main square. And as well as that, we've got the major new Grade A offices at the adjacent Ebrington Plaza that are now looking as if they are near completion.
Gerard Deane: Okay, so we can't do this podcast without [00:02:00] mentioning the fact that there was a bit of a row over the last, recently.
Paul Gosling: Yeah, you call it a row, I just say a tension. Okay, so there's been, there's been tension over the use of the main public space at Ebrington. And that's led to the executive office. making compensation payments of at least £280, 000 to businesses.
As this relates to a legal dispute, I don't think we're going to go there in this conversation today, but it is fair to say that there's been criticisms of the executive office for its handling of the matter.
Gerard Deane: Okay, so what do businesses at Ebrington feel about it as a place to do business and trade and whatever?
Paul Gosling: Now, I contacted several, some of whom did not want to come on here to discuss this. Now, the Ebrington Hotel did not respond to our request for an interview, and nor did Ebrington Holdings, which has a role in future developments. So I'm not quite sure exactly what its role is, but it has some sort of role in the future development, but it didn't answer my request for a conversation with them.
Now I did speak to two businesses based at Ebrington, which are both very positive about the [00:03:00] location. So perhaps we listen first to James Hoey, who's the founder and owner of the Walled City Brewery. Not everyone who's listening will know very much about the Ward City Brewery. So, so tell us what you're doing and how long you've been doing it.
James Hoey: Yeah, so I'm from Derry originally. Paul Walsh and Rosie [are from] Donegal , went to school in Derry and then left in 1996. And with no intention to come back, I have to say. Went down to Dublin. So I studied down there and then joined Guinness and I grew up in Guinness for 12 years. During that time I met a Dublin girl, she brought me back here which is quite unusual in 2010.
So what we came back to was sort of a, for me, certainly is a city transformed you know, just something as simple as the City Of Culture being announced really showed me that the city had changed a lot and it was really on the crest of something quite special, we thought. So, so we came back in 2010 and my time in Guinness came to an end.
I was commuting up and down to Dundalk [00:04:00] at that stage. And then in 2014 we decided we wanted to set up a business ourselves. So crafts brewing and, and was, is growing, or was growing and still is growing. We have a big fondness for, we we're big foodies as well. And we also love the city. So we wanted to set up a sort of a very different venture to what's currently happening in the city.
So we looked at the city center there, we worked with Jim Roddy and the city center initiative and went around a number of buildings. It's just very hard to get to grips in terms of what buildings were available and, you know, because a lot of big, big businesses on a lot of buildings in there and in the town.
And then, of course, we were invited to come over to look at Ebrington square where they were just starting to release the first phase one, which was building 70 where we are and building 57, 59, which is where the, the cafe is, the Embankment.
Paul Gosling: And of course, what you've got now is a pretty [00:05:00] high profile location there.
I mean, so, how, how does it work for you in terms of the quality of trade and things? Is it, is it a good site for you?
James Hoey: Yeah, I mean, so, so, what always, what always struck me is the location. We're obviously at the end of the Peace Bridge, which has helped so much, which has helped the city so much. But we love the location.
You know, a lot of our advisors and mentors weren't too optimistic. So we're talking 2015 and they were saying, well, maybe it's going to be a long way before it actually gets there. And I always believe the markets will answer the questions anyway. So there were very few, there's always this talk of "fill it with bars and restaurants. The reality is nobody really wanted to go there because it was so barren. So we were invited in to look at Building 70. We loved the look of it. It really fitted the business model that we wanted because it's very different from what we do do in terms of brewing our own beers on site.
So we wanted something somewhere a bit different as well. And then we [00:06:00] opened in May, 2015.
Paul Gosling: And how's that been for you? I mean, it must have been tough initially when you didn't have very many people wandering around Ebrington. I know, presumably, it's much better now.
James Hoey: Yeah, it was the first, jeepers, you know, all the way up to COVID was, was, so the first five years were extremely difficult.
We managed to get by because we offer something very, very different. So we were a destination of sorts, I suppose, for, for example, American tourists wanting our own beer. And, but it's certainly, you know, you survive in any hospitality business with sort of walk in trade and then bookings, but walk in trade was negligible because people just weren't walking around the square.
They would cross the Peace Bridge and then they'd go back across the bridge. I know the cafe came through in 2015 as well. They were very successful in the first iteration and then they've had a number of owners since with varying degrees of success. But certainly, that walk in trade, which is the bread and butter for a lot of places in terms of locations. If you look at the city [00:07:00] centre we didn't have that. So we had to carve ourselves out as a destination. And we just got by. I mean, COVID in a weird way kind of did save us. Because we changed our revenue streams and we got a grant for a new Taproom at the back. So we're good now. But that was very difficult.
And in hindsight, you know, in 2015 we were told the hotel would be open maybe a couple of years, and there'd be lots of other, but that never came through for, for a number of reasons, which, which I'm sure we'll go into, you know.
Paul Gosling: And does your walk in trade: is it better now with the hotel opening?
James Hoey: It took a while just for Derry people to you know, even something like COVID again, COVID really opened up Ebrington Square, actually, because a lot of people just wanted open spaces and coffees, and so we, there was a huge amount of people on the square within 2020, 2021, that maybe didn't go there. So now, yeah, certainly the hotel has changed significantly, and it's given a lot of life to the square, it's given that sort of night time economy, which was always missing, as much as we could do a lot, [00:08:00] the cafe could do a lot, but night time economy was never there, and that's really what we need for it to feel safe, as much as you've got the skateboarders and everyone, but for it to feel safe for people outside in the square, you need to have a buzz of taxis and all this kind of thing.
Paul Gosling: I mean, it's a beautiful space now, with the exception of the area that's going to become the museum. I mean, it feels like, you know, a nice space for the city. Is that your perception as well?
James Hoey: Yeah, it's, you know, there's a bar and a restaurant up in building 40, which is just beside where the museum will be, and that's very close to opening, I think.
It's getting fitted out. The cafe gives a great buzz, and then you get all the rear, you've got the Ebrington Bakery, which is a great product. Very badly needed in the Waterside and it gives a great wee buzz around the entrance there. Then you've got all the wonderful Atelier and all those guys up at the top as well.
So it's, you know, I certainly, I only know this anecdotally, [00:09:00] but and I know that all the, all the buildings are effectively taken now in some formats. So it is a place of demand now, finally, as opposed to when we went in, when nobody really would go near it and told us not to, you know.
Paul Gosling: And, and what's your overall perception of what the Ebrington as a development site means for the city as a whole?
James Hoey: Like we get, we do get a lot of American bus tours coming in and their eyes are as big as saucers when they, when they arrive. And, and when we tell the story of Ebrington Barracks, and it even goes back, you know, we go back as far as the Siege of Derry in 1609, when you know, the Jacobite forces were.
So, so the fact that this site has always been about conflict, so Siege of Derry. Obviously a Barracks and all the way up to the Troubles. So this site has always been in conflict, and I never, my only memory about Ebrington Barracks was just helicopters coming up and down, you know, I didn't know what was inside it.
So when we tell the story of that, and now [00:10:00] it being a place of community and innovation and, as I said, we always say at the end of the brewery, people come in and they argue about beers now in our building, which, we believe with some kind of Intelligence building, we're not sure. So people come and argue about beers instead of religion, and it just feels like every bar is part of the healing process of the city.
Which is a long way to go, but it really feels as if we need it to do well, tied in with the Peace Bridge, obviously, which is the communities being linked.
Paul Gosling: I mean, obviously, across the city and region, there's frustration that all this has taken so long. I mean, but presumably, you felt that as a business.
James Hoey: From the lofty point of hindsight, I think we, you know, if we'd have been, if the hotel, if we'd have been told the hotel was opening in 2023, in 2015, then we probably wouldn't have gone ahead with it. But what, you know, what kept us going, I suppose, was always the location, because on a sunny evening, which, which we had in June and a [00:11:00] heatwave in September, there is no better spot, you know, there's very few west facing establishments for hospitality in the city.
So the sun just sets there, and that's what has always been there for us, and, and when we get tourists and they come out and there's a, they always say it's a very European theme, you know, very continental theme, you've got the skateboarders who are fab out, about, and the kids running around on, on the square, and that's, that always reassures us that it is, it's a brilliant location.
Could it have been done quicker and differently? Absolutely. I think everyone would say that, you know.
Paul Gosling: And I suppose you're touching on a really important point, which is there's very few locations in the city where you can sit comfortably outside. And that actually adds something to the quality of the city, doesn't it?
James Hoey: It does, it does. It's, it is that "European" thing. It's a café culture. And, you know, we do, you know, we've been talking to her so much, and they just sit out there on a sunny evening, and they, they absolutely love it, you know, it [00:12:00] changes their whole perception sometimes, not because it's just The Walled City Brewery, but Ebrington Square changes the perception of people, people's perception of Derry, you know, of it being a new city, and it's healing, and it's safe.
Paul Gosling: And how would you like the Ebrington development to evolve over the next years?
James Hoey: I would really love, you know, I think, I think office space is kind of maxed out, you know, at this stage. I would obviously love the, the grade A is there and people have, people have very strong opinions, as they do on Ebrington Square, about the building, but it is there. Obviously, that was very, very badly hamstrung by Covid in terms of office spaces not being really too premium.
Paul Gosling: You're talking about the major new office development.
James Hoey: Yes, yes, so those two buildings, that, that's, once, I'm sure they will be occupied at some stage, and that will give hopefully some high salary jobs for the city and [00:13:00] most importantly for the Waterside because they will really help Clooney Terrace and all that area, Spencer Road, which, which really needs it as well.
So and for us, obviously as well there are other offices around the square, which is, which is great, but I think, you know, there's a restaurant bar at building 40. There's another restaurant bar, I think, going into the old Barrack Masters house, which is the front, that beautiful house at the front.
And, and then I would have, you know, I'd love more sort of innovative, quirky hospitality venues that are a wee bit different, you know we've got the hotel, we've got what we do, we've got the Embankment, just something a wee bit different, you know, and that was always, you know, when we filled in that application form for Ebrington Square years ago, it was always about not displacing businesses from the city centre.
I was very, very conscious of that. And that, you know, that's, that's kind of why we got it because we were so different. So, sort of making an add on to the city centre as opposed to possibly being in competition with the city centre. Because the city centre's got its own [00:14:00] troubles as well in terms of footfall, and everything, so...
Paul Gosling: I think what we can agree, James, in finishing the conversation is that Ebrington has become a brilliant space, though still not fulfilled completely because there's still so much at the back that's empty, but actually, it's just frustrating it's taken so long.
James Hoey: Yeah, I think so, you know, this, there's, you know, I tell it to start with Ilex guys and there was, you know, there was certainly a lot of legacy there and I can see their frustrations because, you know, they effectively took over a site, which was an old army site from 1841.
So there was a huge amount of infrastructure that needed to go in and there was certainly reasons why it was hampered so long, but I think, I think the reality is that it's probably 21 years now since it was handed over. So, and that's, that is way too long and in anybody's book. And then it was hit by Covid and Brexit, so there are very valid reasons.
But [00:15:00] yeah, so we are where we are and the Hotel is doing great, DNA Museum I think should be hopefully starting soon in terms of its construction and that's kind of the final piece of the jigsaw. If we get the new office blocks certified, DNA Museum I think we're pretty much there.
Gerard Deane: Okay, thanks to James for that.
Paul, who else did you speak to?
Paul Gosling: Now I also spoke with Paul Nellis director of Challenge Curve, which is a software business that is based in the AMP building, which is overlooking the main Ebrington Square.
To head off, tell us a bit what ChallengeCurve is and why you're located, what, in the AMP building at Ebrington?
Paul Nelis: Yeah, that's correct. So Challenge Curve is a specialist software quality assurance and testing consultancy. So that means we work with organizations where IT, technical solutions, is critical to their business. And if they're doing a lot of change, if they're building a new application, then we can provide independent testing to make sure that their software is fit for purpose.[00:16:00]
So most of our clients work in sectors that are regulated, such as financial services sector. So we work with a few what's called challenger banks and fintechs where they're delivering a new financial product, a savings product or a credit card product. And of course, if the software is flaky, then they're going to have lots of disgruntled customers or people wonder where their money's gone.
So we test those applications to make sure they're fit for purpose, that they're robust, secure, resilient, performant, et cetera. So we do a lot of testing on smartphones, on banking applications. We've got multiple devices of phones and androids and iPhones, and then we tested the back end as well. So that all of the integrations with different 3rd party systems are all working.
So that's the nature of our business. Most of our clients like us to work on site. So we're based in London and that's where we've done most of our work since we were founded in 2015. However, we [00:17:00] had this thing called COVID a few years ago, which meant that if organizations still wanted to develop things, they had to accept remote working.
So people being outside of their firewall. And we got involved with a major bank in Kuwait who wanted to launch a new financial services platform in London, because of the high standards of regulation in the London market brings integrity to a lot of international banks. And so we had the opportunity to work with this bank remotely and we thought, well, we had an opportunity to scale our team and we thought, well, let's have a kind of a near shore office to London, whereby we could invest in creating a new operation there. And ideally, you know, contribute something to a local economy at the same time. So my business partner, Chris had suggested Dublin. He lived and worked there a number of years ago for a year, even though he's, he's, he's an English lad and one of our colleagues thought Middlesbrough, where he was from it's a, you [00:18:00] know, regional area of northeast England and it suffers from high unemployment, et cetera.
I persuaded Chris to come to Derry and Chris was just blown away by, by the reception that we received. So we ended up setting up in Derry in Ebrington Square.
And why Ebrington?
Well, initially we weren't in Ebrington. They were still doing work on the on the AMP building, and we took a location out by Skeoge Business Park run by Northwest Enterprises.
We had a, you know, modern office space there. It was great for the team. The firewall, the people were fantastic. But because we have a team that comes from from Donegal and Tyrone, as well as, you know, the city and its surrounding countryside I thought we all wanted a location that was centered.
And when we saw the AMP and met the two gentlemen responsible for the AMP and their vision, we thought, wow, this is where it's happening. We want to be based here. We want the sort of the sort of pollination with all other teams, with all other start ups and [00:19:00] likewise, you know, being close to the city centre.
We wanted to invest and create, you know, a very pleasant environment for our employees. That was in the center of town, lots happening, and they could meet and liaise with people, you know, in other industries as well. Whereas Skeoge, Skeoge Business Park, as I said, it was great, but there was a few big anchor clients who hadn't gone back after COVID, who were letting their people still work remotely.
So, so Skeoge was very isolated in some respects. There wasn't enough people there. If you understand, it felt like a sort of empty building, except for the Challenge Curve thing.
Paul Gosling: And I've been inside your building AMP, and it's, it's beautiful. It's, it's a really lovely regenerated set of offices, isn't it?
Paul Nelis: Yeah, the Ryan and Aaron who are responsible for it. They've, they put a lot of their investment into, you know, everything from, from the wood that's a Siberian birch wood. I remember getting a tour, but, about [00:20:00] the wood paneling, the sound paneling and they wanted to, you know, to be a focal point for all our organizations to drop in where they have events and seminars, etc. And, you know, we've contributed to to a number of those in the past. So it's a nice vibrant atmosphere. And of course, it's all happening in conjunction as well with other works going on in Ebrington Square. So we're all familiar with the... there's the Walled City Brewery, there's the new bakery, the local pub got a refurbishment where a lot of our members spent their time, and of course the new hotel as well.
So it's a, it's a real vibrant area, and to be part of that, you know, it's, it's a privilege to be part of that.
Does it feel like a community?
Yeah. The, the AMP does, I think with the rest of Ebrington, probably not at the moment because there has been a lot of change and for the last 18 months, there have been lorries and builders and a lot of scaffolding outside the hotel so it means people have had to deviate from that.
I think, I think the community probably will come in due [00:21:00] course. Certainly, you know, we're, we're keeping an eye for maybe, you know organizations in Ebrington to come together as a sort of collective. It hasn't happened yet, but, but we have been doing things with the local chamber of commerce. So that might be the overarching forum where, where it might bring things together a bit, but, but yeah, the community will come in time, I'm sure.
Paul Gosling: And how would you like Ebrington as a place to develop? What would you like to see happen to it in the near future?
Paul Nelis: Really good question. I think, I think Everton lacks a little bit of critical mass. Maybe that's the word I was either expressing, I was looking for in terms of community. Lacks a bit of critical mass at the moment, and, and we know that there's all buildings that are either, you know, earmarked for refurbishment or for new tenants to come in.
I think we need more of that. I think we're not at the community level yet. We, we got little pockets of it because it is a big square. You know, the, the, the sheer size of the place can, could be an inhibitor, but I think, and [00:22:00] maybe the hotel could have been the, well, still can be, could be the sort of focal point to bring people together a bit, you know, to have open evenings of, to invite the local businesses along and get to know everyone else because they have the space and size to accommodate that.
The AMP, the AMP's a great building. But I remember when I spoke to Ryan and Aaron, when we first moved in there, they thought, guys, you know what, if we bought this three times the size, we, we could have filled it as well. You know, so that would've gained a bit more critical mass. So I think Ebrington, I'm not aware of all of the other plans that are happening there, but I certainly think that future plans needs to incorporate the new startups, the new industries, the new sectors where jobs are gonna be created.
And I think a lot of those by their size will probably be more indigenous organizations, as opposed to the large corporates. So I am mindful of the fact that that the large glass building[00:23:00] beside us. We don't know who's moving in there. We heard it was like there was gonna be a large corporate.
And I think what what would be really important for, for the city is that they promote indigenous organizations or organizations that are small enough like ours. Where we're really, you know, I'm the director of Challenge Curve. If Chris and I agree, something that happens where, where we want to contribute and grow the teams.
As opposed to some of the big corporates, and we are aware that corporates can come in, they can get some investment, and then clear off a few years later when it doesn't suit them. So I think there needs to be more effort on helping to grow those sustainable industries, as it were.
Paul Gosling: And really just to complete it quickly.
Paul Nelis: Yeah, and to complete it because it lacks critical mass, there's still an atmosphere of a work in progress. You know, and I love the openness, you know, the view you get from the rest of the city when you, when you cross over the the Peace Bridge and you [00:24:00] get into Ebrington House, take a look across and I love the view, but it has an air of, it's still a work in progress type thing to be done. Yeah.
Gerard Deane: Okay. Thanks to Paul Neillis for speaking with us. Can you tell us, Paul, what's going to happen now at Ebrington? Because there's still some way from completion. It's like if you walk through, it's still not fully done.
Paul Gosling: Absolutely. And that's the main area. We've still got the car park, which is a car park at the back. Now one of the most exciting developments is the new DNA Museum. Now that's close to the Peace Bridge, it's the, if anyone who knows Derry will see it at the top there on the left. Now, it's close to the Peace Bridge, but I should perhaps say that personally, I hate the name.
I don't know why they're talking about a DNA museum, because I always think of genetics, but actually it stands for the Derry North Atlantic Museum, and it's about the city's maritime history. It is now scheduled to open in 2025, so that's another two years. It had originally been intended to be operational back in 2016.
Gerard Deane: Okay, so another [00:25:00] part that's been delayed?
Paul Gosling: Yeah. There's a trend here, isn't there? The council tells us that some of the funding has now been secured, the rest is in negotiation, and the council is advancing with procurement for construction to begin as soon as possible. Now, I'd love to tell you about plans for the development of the rest of Ebrington site, but I can't.
The executive office declined to provide someone for interview, and I went back, when I went back to them, asking for a written statement, I didn't get a reply. Now, I also asked Heron Brothers, which has been the main developer of the Ebrington Plaza offices, for the state of play on that development, but again, I didn't receive a response.
Gerard Deane: Okay, so what's happening over the future management of the Ebrington site?
Paul Gosling: Well, the public row has certainly trickled through the local conversations and it's upset a lot of the councillors. So Derry City and Strabane District Council has agreed a resolution. The councillors met and discussed this and passed a resolution.
Which I have to say, to be honest, I don't think is a [00:26:00] very definitive, clear explanation of where we are going from here. Now, the resolution says that the council reaffirms its commitment to the transfer of Ebrington from the executive office to the council as soon as it's practically possible. So I've no idea what that means in terms of timetable, nor what part of Ebrington that relates to.
The resolution also asks for council officers to engage with the executive office, and I quote here, "so that council can provide the management and oversight function of sustainable and cost effective events at the square". Now, as far as I know, I don't know if there's been a response and if there is a response at all from the executive office, I don't know what it is.
Now the council's also told us, quote, "It is happy to continue to engage regularly with the executive office in relation to various aspects of the Ebrington site. The council, as a key stakeholder in the city and district, is keen to be involved in any co design process and consultative [00:27:00] role in relation to the Ebrington Square site."
I should just add that if actually at some point, Ebrington was transferred over to the council, there are serious concerns, I believe, in what the implications financially would be for ratepayers in Derry, because perhaps if it did happen, there would need to be some sort of dowry paid by the executive office to the council to compensate for the cost of running the site.
Gerard Deane: Okay, so it still seems a story to be continued, Paul?
Paul Gosling: Yes and as I said earlier, there's much of the wider Ebrington site yet to be developed. So 21 years after the site was agreed for handover, we're still not at the end of the story.
Gerard Deane: Okay, so Fort George. I dread to think what you're going to tell me about Fort George here.
Paul Gosling: Well, yeah, it's not, it's not great, is it? I mean, if we think that Ebrington is slow, then, well, Fort George is significantly slower. Fort George was transferred under a different arrangement to that of Ebrington. It was handed back by the Ministry of Defense to [00:28:00] Londonderry Port and Harbor, which it had leased from . Now that's of course known as Foyle Port these days, and was sold to the Department for Social Development, which changed its name to the Department for Communities.
Now that was sold to DSD in May, 2004 for £12 million. Now that's 19 years ago. So both Fort George and Ebrington were to be regenerated under the leadership of the former ilex Urban Regeneration Company, and to be fair, there were more challenges with the Fort George site than with Ebrington.
Gerard Deane: When you say challenges, what do you mean, physical or planning or what
Paul Gosling: was it? Well, the initial one was serious site pollution which needed to be remediated. Now Fort George was part of a naval dockyard and consequently was subject to serious oil contamination. Now that cost several million pounds to deal with.
which was partially paid for by the Ministry of Defence, but then further remediation was required to resolve an infestation of Japanese knotweed, [00:29:00] which is an invasive species. Now that added cost and delayed redevelopment.
Gerard Deane: Okay, but surely those two things... Doesn't add 19 years of delay to the process.
Paul Gosling: No, I don't believe they did. Much of the recent history, not much has happened at Fort George.
Gerard Deane: But there's the big Catalyst building, you know, everybody will see it and it's pretty obvious and it's a really impressive looking building down there.
Paul Gosling: Yeah, we've got that. Catalyst was previously known as the Northern Ireland Science Park.
That's what it was known as when it was initially built. It operates as a starter development and incubation unit for technology businesses. Now that has been so successful that a second Catalyst unit is to be built, planning permission has been approved, and finance is being arranged.
Gerard Deane: That's good to see stuff happening.
So, what else, Paul, what else is happening in Fort George? "Because there has been some talk about what's going to happen in the future.
Paul Gosling: Yeah, so Catalyst has got two plots of land at Fort George and there's a third parcel of land that has been sold to the Western Trust for a new health and care centre.[00:30:00]
The Department for Communities confirmed to us that the sale has been finalised and the land is now in the ownership of the Western Trust. Now the department told us that Western Trust will use the site for an quote, "integrated primary, community and acute" unquote, centre. And the department added that the facility will provide accommodation for multidisciplinary working and will include the capacity for a broader range of diagnostic treatment and care services to be delivered in a community setting.
Now this will generate. 250 new permanent jobs as well as relocating into the site 450 existing staff posts.
Gerard Deane: Okay. Well, it's great to hear about new posts coming. I don't think anybody can argue with that, but I suppose you're going to tell us just following the pattern from previous developers or concerned agencies that neither the Department for Communities nor the Western Trust were willing to be interviewed.
Paul Gosling: You guessed it. Yeah. But they did both give us statements which is better than some others. Now the Western Trust also gave us a long statement and I'll quote from a bit of this. [00:31:00] This major development will facilitate changes in current delivery which will provide for an integrated care model which is flexible to changing needs, provides for improved clinical pathways and will enable the maximization of opportunities from a range of service adjacencies.
This development demonstrates the Trust "taking the steps necessary to ensure the infrastructure is in place to address the growing demands across all our services" that unquote there. Now the trust did add that it's working to complete the outline business case, which is needed to move ahead with procurement for construction.
Gerard Deane: Okay, so how long has this taken to this point?
Paul Gosling: Well, back in 2015, that's nearly eight years ago, the Department for Communities was given outline planning permission for a mixed use development of Fort George. Then in 2018, so that's now almost three years after that, it initiated a tender process for the land.
Western Trust obtained approval for its bid.
Gerard Deane: Okay, but that was five years ago. I know we've had COVID and everything else [00:32:00] in between as well, but it hasn't been built yet.
Paul Gosling: Correct. Yeah. We submitted a freedom of information request to see the correspondence between the two organisations to try and get an understanding of why things have been so badly delayed.
We were told that the correspondence amounted to thousands of items and therefore was excused from disclosure because of the cost of administration.
Gerard Deane: Okay, so getting back to the site in general then, Paul, how large a site is Fort George?
Paul Gosling: 11 acres, so to speak.
Gerard Deane: Okay, so we've got one catalyst building, another one planned, and then the new health centre.
Will that take up most of the space?
Paul Gosling: Amazingly, no. Most of the site will still remain vacant. The Health Trust will occupy 1. 7 acres. So the Western Trust did tell us, also, a quote, The Department of Communities is working with other stakeholders to progress the development of the remainder of the Fort George site for development, including the planning required for access, internal road and car parking [00:33:00] infrastructure, all of which will meet both the Western Trust and future stakeholder needs.
Gerard Deane: Okay, so with one plot in use, two other plots earmarked for use, what will happen to the rest?
Paul Gosling: That is yet to be decided by the Department for Communities.
Gerard Deane: So, we don't know, or they don't know what they're going to do with it?
Paul Gosling: So let me quote from the Department for Communities. Their spokesperson said, "The department is currently revising the master plan to incorporate the proposed health and care centre on the site. In the longer term, the department intends to market the remainder of the site. "
Gerard Deane: Okay, so it's not entirely clear. It still looks like they don't
Paul Gosling: know. Yeah, that's the feeling I think. They are going to sell it though. So the development will be in keeping with the outline planning permission. And anyone buying land will have to obtain detailed planning permission in order to build on it.
Gerard Deane: Okay, so I suppose there's a bit of a question too, Paul, around the river and how we see the river when it comes to development, both at Ebrington as a site that's on the river and Fort George. [00:34:00] As in the past, we've seen, I think, detrimental... development along the river Foyle where we've had the backs of buildings facing onto the river.
Is that likely to continue? Because I think we're not making the best, or not making the most of our, our riverscape here.
Paul Gosling: I think you could argue that Ebrington is an example of good development in the sense that it, it makes use of the river. You've got great views from the walkways at the top of the square, the plaza to over the river.
So I think that is good. And also it fits in with the walk and cycle way that goes alongside it. So I think Ebrington is an example of good practice, but, and some of this stuff is what you're saying, of course, is perfectly right. We're not making good use of the river and the, you know, the quality of the views that you get from there.
But I don't think that's unique to Derry. I remember Glenn Patterson saying that he'd been brought up with Belfast, in Belfast, and really he never thought about the River Lagan and he heard the [00:35:00] seagulls one day and thought, "Oh, yeah, we've got a waterfront there" and it took many years for Belfast to recognize the value of water scenery and some of the development in Derry over the years has just been astonishing that we've got Sainsbury's , a major supermarket, on the bank of the river.
We've got the tech college with a really ugly building throwing a shadow over the river. We've got Quayside, which is one of the ugliest buildings in Northern Ireland dominating a large amount of it. It's almost as if planners have been embarrassed and I, you know, perhaps I shouldn't say planners, developers, perhaps, it's actually better to say, have just been embarrassed by the sense of not wanting to use the river. It's something to be embarrassed about.
So, you know, it does not feel as if we're making great use of it. And I think Ebrington an example of where we have, but Fort George, I mean, it's just astonishing that nearly 20 years after what should be a prime site, one of the most beautiful locations in the city, and nothing really has happened.
Gerard Deane: [00:36:00] Okay, so just to summarize then on the two main sites that we're talking about, Ebrington and Fort George. In just over 20 years, Ebrington is partially completed, but not much of it. And in nearly 20 years as well, Fort George is mostly vacant with no clear plans for how most of it is going to be used.
Paul Gosling: Yeah, perfectly summarized, Gerard.
Gerard Deane: Okay, well, on that cheerful note then, that's it for this latest podcast. We do hope that you enjoyed it and if you didn't enjoy it, at least you learned from it. So thanks to our two interviewees today, Paul Neillis of Challenge Curve and James Hoey of the Walled City Brewery.
Sad that others declined to be interviewed, but we get it too, we understand. And thanks as always, Paul, to yourself for the interviews and the research that you've pulled together. As a reminder, as ever, all our Holywell Trust Conversations podcast can be listened to through our own website: holywelltrust.com
And we thank the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council for support for this series of conversations. Chat to you all again soon.[00:37:00]