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Some Future Day evaluates technology at the intersection of culture & law.Â
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Join Marc Beckman and his esteemed guests for insider knowledge surrounding how you can use new technologies to positively impact your life, career, and family. Marc Beckman is Senior Fellow of Emerging Technologies and an Adjunct Professor at NYU, CEO of DMA United, and a member of the New York State Bar Association’s Task Force on Cryptocurrency and Digital Assets.   Â
Marc Beckman: Jessica Yellin, welcome to Some Future Day. It's such a pleasure to have you today. How are
you? I'm great. Thank you for having me. This is a treat.
It's such a thrill. I must admit I'm a little concerned and nervous because I'm doing essentially your job right now. So it's going to be tough to stand up to what you've accomplished. I mean, the people that you've interviewed, I was just mentioning to you before we went on air, just Incredible, just incredible, incredible people, presidents, President Clinton, President Bush, President Obama, really, really remarkable, um, it's, it's really fantastic, so congratulations, but before we get into those people, I want to read a quote Um, from Oscar Wilde,
Jessica Yellin: Okay.
Marc Beckman: and it's a nice blending between presidents and the media.
You might have heard it already, but I want to get your thoughts about it off the cuff. So Oscar Wilde said, In America, the president reigns for four years, and journalism governs forever and [00:01:00] ever. In America, the president reigns for four years and journalism governs forever and ever. Jessica, what do you think about that?
Jessica Yellin: First of all, you've done some impressive prep. Like, you have a quote ready to go off the top. That's a good interview style. Um, I'm Thank you. Oscar Wilde fan. I do think, uh, it is true, I say in Washington, you know, the elected officials come and go, but, uh, sort of journalists and the political class are the permanent elite.
They stay from administration to administration no matter who wins or loses. Uh, but journalism Is undergoing so many tectonic changes. It's kind of hard to know what that really means right now.
Marc Beckman: So we're going to get into that in a little bit, but before we go there, please tell me, so from a journalistic perspective, who's inspired you in your career the most?
Jessica Yellin: Oh, that's a great question. You know, there's so many people that I, you know, when I was growing up, I watched 60 minutes [00:02:00] obsessively and thought that that looked like, um, a great combination of sort of doing good for the world and doing well in life. Right. Like having a cool career and making a difference.
Um, I looked at so many of the. you know, evening news anchors and the reporters all over the globe of the major network news shows. Um, you know, I looked at Cokie Roberts, who was a, broke the glass ceiling for women in a lot of ways, Linda Douglas, obviously, like, Diane Sawyer, Katie Couric, all these women who were able to walk this line of being both sort of interesting and, to be frank, feminine people and very powerful and able and smart.
Um, where they displayed that as part of what they were encouraged to be in public. And it was one of the few areas, because I'm quite old now, where back in that day, um, women were allowed to be all those things publicly as part of their career. and then I got into the career and I ended up meeting a lot of those people who were my heroines.
Marc Beckman: So, you know, it's [00:03:00] often, uh, when one meets their heroine, they are, um, let down, right? It's not exactly what they expect. did any of them, uh, actually turn things the other way for you? Did you meet them and they exceeded your expectations? They inspired you even more?
Jessica Yellin: I would say that what, I mean, there were so many people in my career who were encouraging or give me opportunities. I mean, I got some of my big breaks because of Diane Sawyer. I started on
Marc Beckman: Was that right?
Jessica Yellin: for her show, Good Morning America. So, you know, like I owe a debt of gratitude to her. and I, I was at ABC, so I knew Cokie and Linda, and they were always available for a word or advice, etc.
Um, said that your heroes sometimes disappoint when you get to know them. I would say that the industry was not what I thought it was once I was on the inside, right? Um, it wasn't about the individuals, but it was the, um, the, what the business has become, I think, is different from what it looked like and what it [00:04:00] may have been when I was a little kid.
Marc Beckman: Well, back when you were, quote unquote, a little kid, you, you really did sit down with some major, major individuals. Again, I laid out the presidents in particular, uh, President Obama, President Clinton, as well as President Bush. I'm curious, did any of those presidents inspire you, or inspire you as an individual, um, maybe to be a better person somehow, to do better in your career somehow?
Jessica Yellin: I would say every president I've met, there's something about them that is, The best I've ever seen or the most I've ever encountered, right? These are people who have exceptional qualities to get where they are. Um, and I was always struck by that. I think Clinton had this combination of EQ and IQ that came together in every moment quite famously, where he just relates to you in a way where you feel like his attunement is so high and his ability to explain is so exceptional.
I always found that sort of [00:05:00] inspiring. What I. I think my strength is, is breaking down complicated ideas for people and he does that almost better than anybody I can think of, right? So that was inspiring to me. George W. Bush has this amazing ability, like his EQ is off the charts and his ability to sort of read a room and sense what people need from him or want or are feeling and then to give it or withhold it was amazing, like bar none.
And his ability to make you feel. Unbelievably relaxed and at ease, and you're, you almost forgot that he was a most powerful person on earth when you were with him sometimes, but he could turn it back on. So that kind of dynamic, and he had the most, um, an exceptional ability to delegate and he had a White House that truly empowered women and people of diversity in unexpected roles.
So I thought he was, he was under recognized for that. And then Barack Obama's just an exceptional human in his inner calm. I mean, there's so [00:06:00] many things one could say, but one thing that struck me that doesn't get much attention is his inner calm. When you're with him, the sense of almost a Buddha like stillness inside, no matter what else is going on, was profound.
And, uh, sometimes people interpreted that as sort of like a spocky coolness, but I always sensed it as this meditative peace inside him, which probably came from the Hawaii in him.
Marc Beckman: Well, that's so interesting. Thank you for sharing that, Jessica. I'm curious, when I was, um, a kid, for me, there were certain politicians that inspired me to get out of bed and kind of, like, get into gear and do more, right? To learn and grow and be impactful. So, for me, growing up, President Kennedy, I grew up in this house where President Kennedy was, you know, really god like, and it trickled down, and I aspired to be, you know, this fearless leader who was able to, Break the walls down for, you know, social justice topics [00:07:00] and, and beyond.
I'm curious if you could put your finger on a politician today who inspires you, whether it's local, state, or federal, who would that be?
Jessica Yellin: Um, gosh.
Marc Beckman: A politician that's currently in office.
Jessica Yellin: I think that there are a lot of remarkable people. I tend to be most moved by activists and advocates who are sort of like Shannon Watts, who was a mom who started posting on Facebook after a school shooting and created Moms Demand Action, um, But I think that there are so many young elected officials right now who are coming up and, you know, trying to make a difference.
I just happened to have, um, the opportunity to meet Jasmine Crockett, who is a young, uh, know, relatively young Democrat from Texas who's making her way. One thing I was struck by what she told me is that, um, her senior Senator, John Cornyn, who's a Republican, is often happy [00:08:00] to part, was often happy to partner with her to advance legislation where it was all about helping their district and the idea that.
doesn't come first when it comes to constituent services and helping our people. And what was so upsetting about that and inspiring is like, yay, this still exists, and how crazy that this is something we should be elated about. When I first was aware of politics, this was, you know, standard procedure.
Um, but there, you know, We're living in a time where there's a lot of extremism that gets sorted, valued in the primary system. You know, people who are the most extreme tend to get elected by our current political system. Um, and I really gravitate to people who are both strong in their principles and willing to work with the other side.
uh, I would have to go out, sit down, and think hard about who they are and come back to you. I mean,
Marc Beckman: That's too bad, right? That's kind of, it's kind of sad that, um, it's [00:09:00] not easy to just land on somebody sitting in office today, again, local, state, or federal,
Jessica Yellin: who's, he does, you know, what's right for his people, and then he takes political issues. Uh, Wes Moore in Maryland is a huge up and comer among Democrats. Uh, I think Gretchen Whitmer is a superstar. Had things gone differently, she would, could have been the nominee this year, you know what I mean?
Like, there's a deep bench on, on both sides.
Marc Beckman: so let's go back. You said, um, you made a big statement. I'm not going to let it just pass us by earlier. You basically said that the business of news reporting has, um, in a way, Not lived up to your expectations, right? So can you break that down a little bit? What did you expect the business of news to be and what is it in reality?
Jessica Yellin: You know, I thought that the news would be about telling the most important story that must be told. In the most, you know, um, dispassionate and compelling way possible, and I [00:10:00] assume that sure, there are choices one makes to get, you know, make the thing more appealing to the audience, um, but what I, but it's, you know, but the importance and the value of that story is what dominates, right, and that informing the public and caring about getting them engaged to take action is what would matter, um, I found that in the business, the imperative to grab eyeballs, um, to all sorts of other realities internally.
Like, my long story short on what happened to the news business is, you know, originally, it was a not, not a profit center. Right, for these companies. When ABC, NBC, CBS came along, they were given, um, the broadcast channels by the government, and in return, they were set, told, you, you get this, but in return, you have to do a public service and give us news, and it was just a trade, and so they did it, and the news was about the news.
[00:11:00] Um, one can Take issue with it because it was decided mostly by, you know, white middle class men who lived on the Upper West Side of New York, and that's a very specific demo, and now you have many more voices, but at that point it wasn't about profit. fast forward over the next 50 plus years.
Ultimately, they were all bought by publicly traded companies that have to report profit on a quarterly basis. And that profit pressure trickles down to the newsroom in the form of, how can we get more ratings and not just over the course of a year, but in time to show an improvement for the next shareholder meeting.
And that put pressure on newsrooms to, to do that. Inform how they make decisions about what to cover. And one small example is now there's a technology that people in a control room have that shows them moment by moment, not minute by minute, but moment by moment, when people are tuning out and flipping the channel and they know like, Oh, look, that topic went down.
Oh, look, this topic goes up. Oh, we're holding. And these advancements [00:12:00] determine what gets covered as news.
Marc Beckman: So what does that do to democracy? Like to me, the, the journalistic tribe is so important as it relates to preserving a healthy democracy. Right, really reporting the truth. So what do you see, um, transforming, like, you're at the front line of things, you've been your entire career, like, how is this, this transformation actually impacting America?
Jessica Yellin: So. First, there is one business in America, only one, that is explicitly protected by the U. S. Constitution, and it is the free press. that is because the founders believed that having a free press was essential to a functioning democracy, because that's how you inform voters to make informed decisions when they vote.
Uh, so, this link between, uh, press and our democracy is foundational. Uh, I think that the critique I [00:13:00] just provided of what transformed news, um, is specific to a time period. Like, it's It's one piece of a problem. In addition, we also have the pressure that social media has put on the news, um, the rise of influencers, et cetera, et cetera, which I know we'll get into.
But I think there's this cacophony of different pressures that have fundamentally changed how we get information. And we've moved away from having a press corps to having, um, like an information economy, right? Where every one of us is almost an information. We're in, we're in the message war, all of us, because we have a phone and we can make videos, and I think that the profit, it's taken eyeballs away from news, put new kinds of profit pressure on them, and it means that they are under survival, existential survival pressure to continue to engage the audience they have in ways that will get [00:14:00] eyeballs on them, right? And what that means is often they'll see one story, they'll look at, you know, used to, they'll look at how a story is sort of ranking online, like what's getting a lot of clicks, and use that as a temperature taker to assign stories for the journalists who are on air. And instead of just having one person cover a popular story, they'll slice and dice a popular story into three different angles.
And have three different reporters covering the same thing from different angles and get hyper saturation on that one story. And all this means that it's almost a popularity contest to some extent. also means that they're covering the things that get the most explosive emotional response from you.
I always say the news competes for your anxiety because that's what's going to get you to tune in and stay tuned in. that, that ultimately is bad for our mental health. It divides us, it polarizes us, and it's bad for democracy, but it's a business strategy to survive.
Marc Beckman: Do you think the [00:15:00] citizenry knows that, Jessica? Do you think that they're maybe not, they're, they're aware that they're not getting access to the truth and all of the news, but they're complacent with it? At a massive level, generally speaking,
Jessica Yellin: I, it really, it so varies. I, I have to say, like, It would, it would help if I could explain a little bit of my story and then you can understand where I'm coming from because I'll tell you my audience when I, I share information with my audience, what they tell me is they don't trust the mainstream press because the mainstream press is, traffics in clicks and virality and, um, gets paid to tell us stuff, this is what they say, that we don't, and we don't know who's paying them, but they trust influencers.
And I'm like, yeah, Okay, hold up. Clicks, virality, and paid to influence is literally the business of influencing. Like, why do you blame the traditional press for this and not influencers? I, I offer this to say that for some audiences, [00:16:00] they've been so indoctrinated in all this that they completely mistrust the press.
And I think, and, and only trust random online creators. And I think Parts of the audience are, almost have a conspiracy about the media. So there are parts that aren't aware of what's going on. And there are parts that are over tuned to that. And I think we need a balance.
Marc Beckman: you know, it's such a weird thing. It's almost like a psychosis has like transformed the masses in the United States in the way they accept media when they, they, they know that most of it is not accurate. Maybe it's not trustworthy. Um, perhaps. Legacy Media is more focused on the narrative than the facts themselves, but yet, they still take that, they consume that content, they take that knowledge, and then they fight the other side with all of this knowledge.
It's such a weird thing that's happening, um, in culture today.
Jessica Yellin: I think it's partly because we're now in [00:17:00] these, right, these thought bubbles, right, these information bubbles. And so, and once you trust your sources, you mistrust the others. I all, a separate thing is, I this critique that we did such a good job of telling people that they are being manipulated by misinformation and disinformation and propaganda and constantly warning audiences of this, that they're on a high alert and, uh, they think that to be skeptical is to be smart and informed.
But we've never given them the tools to discern what to believe. So they're taught only to disbelieve. And never how to make decisions about what to believe. And so this like rejection response is very evolved and their trust response is underdeveloped sometimes. And so they trust whoever feels right or gets in their feed or their friends trust.
And, it's this imbalance. And so I'll post stuff that doesn't really track with what else is in their bubble. And people will say, why are [00:18:00] you saying this? This is, is not our information. Like, I don't believe it. I reject it. For example, during the Masa Amini protests in Iran. those when the Women, Life, Freedom protests?
I can't tell you how many people online told me this isn't real. It's not actually happening. It's a CIA front that they're just sending us these videos that aren't happening. Why do you believe that? Right? That's, no. But it's, they don't have the tools to discern how to decide what to trust always.
Marc Beckman: So let's back up again and focus on you, Jessica. You were recently in, well, I think it does provide context a little bit for the conversation and where we're going to go. So you were recently at the convention at the DNC and, um, it's interesting because it was the first time that you attended the DNC, not as a journalist or a reporter, but as a
Jessica Yellin: Creator, as a creator, as a creator.
Marc Beckman: So can you explain that a little bit? Like, why are you all of a sudden a creator?
Jessica Yellin: [00:19:00] Yes.
Marc Beckman: What does that mean? What does that even mean?
Jessica Yellin: it's a good question. Creator really refers to somebody who makes their content and put on, and posts it as an independent person on social media. and I, I have a presence on Instagram and a newsletter that I send through Substack As an independent journalist, um, and there's a whole universe of us, many, very few of whom actually come from traditional news.
A lot of the people who I attended the convention with you know, there's an opera singer who sings songs and then talks about politics to some extent. So, um, That's a different kind of influencer. I'm not that. Uh, but all of these influencers and people have a very direct relationship with an audience that has extremely high trust.
And I would say that my relationship with my audience is higher trust than most. Um, that's what I've Um, and so it becomes. An extremely strong bond, you know, they did a survey once I saw that 40 percent of people [00:20:00] who follow a creator on social media feel that they know you as well as a member of their own family. That's because, you know, when you get your FaceTime call from mom in the phone, here I'll find my phone, it's, it's right here, right, mom's face is there, but also when I pop up with a video, my face is there, right, talking to you. Like your family, kind of. And so that forms this parasocial connection and I, and I dialogue with people, I have a back and forth, so they know me and it creates this bond of trust that's very intense.
Um, when I left news to start this, I had a instinct that would be like this, but I didn't know the extent to which the connection would be this deep. I think it'd be, you know, helpful if I explain a little bit about why I left news with that.
Marc Beckman: I'm interested. Go ahead. Go ahead.
Jessica Yellin: so I mentioned that I started in the news business because I wanted to do well, do good, and have a positive impact on, you know, viewers, to inform them to [00:21:00] participate in our democracy.
as I wrote, I got into the news and my goal was always to be White House correspondent. And as I rose through the ranks and did the things you have to do, um, you I was constantly out talking to undecided voters, because when you're a political correspondent in an election year, that's who you talk to.
And in those years, overwhelmingly, undecided voters were women. I was out in the field, endlessly talking to the women, and they would scream at me. And they'd say,
Marc Beckman: at you.
Jessica Yellin: Yell, get pissy, you know what I mean, like, and they'd say, um, I pay attention, I watch, you know, my husband watches your channels or whatever, and all you do is fight.
All you do is put on these panels of people who are screaming at each other and fighting. You get me so anxious and you don't answer any of my questions. You tell me the world's gonna end and you go to commercial break. And then there's no solutions, no action. It just is [00:22:00] made, makes me hysterical. So I'm like, what are your questions?
What do you want to know? And person after person would either pull out, like in the early days, they pull out clippings of articles or a notepad, that they'd have next to their grocery list, and then it was on their phone. Like, is this person going to raise my, you know, Well, we have health care reform under this person.
How will they affect taxes? Like, they wanted very concrete, specific answers. I'm told that they'll, you know, remove this deduction. What's real? And I'd go back to home base and say to my bosses, hey, there's this audience that's, we're not addressing them. I'd love to try to create some segments that speak to them.
they'd say, no, this is, if it's not happening now, it's not for us. We only do breaking news. Or we only do whatever. And I was watching YouTube and Evolve and watching these other platforms emerge, and the things that would do best there were explainer stories and happy news, and we did neither, right?
Only [00:23:00] negative things that panic you, and then nothing explained, really. It used to be that we, like, my job as a baby reporter was to, like, explain a tax bill and then toss to a panel that would fight about it. Now, they don't do the explain part, they just do the fight part, right? you don't actually know what the things are, what are we talking about?
So when I I couldn't get my managers or anybody to of see my vision, and I decided there's an opportunity here. When I left, I had started my career as a one man band reporter in Orlando, where I had set, as my earliest jobs, I would my own interviews, film my own stand up, write the script, edit it, research it, put it together, and put it on air myself.
So I went back to my origins, and I started making videos three minute videos for social media explaining what was happening in the news. And um, I was the first national reporter to do that. I created this model of how people are now telling the news [00:24:00] on social media. Meta found my account and used my videos and went to newsrooms all over the world saying this is how you should tell news on social media.
And
it's
now become the global standard.
Marc Beckman: Okay. So that's incredible and a big risk. I mean, what did it take you, uh, to take that risk, to jump into leaving this, you know, amazing career, the security of legacy media and say, I'm just going to do this on my own. I mean, that's really brave. Right.
Jessica Yellin: That's nice of you. It was really scary. But I also felt like I had to change. Like I had to make a change. Um, somebody I valued said to me, um, leap and the net will appear. And uh, don't know, like, I don't know what really made me know that this was the path to follow, but I knew I wanted to try a different way.
And so, when I picked up the camera the first time, it wasn't, I didn't think I'd [00:25:00] become a news influencer or whatever. I thought, gosh, I know news needs to be told differently. I know there must be an audience that wants this. I'm just going to experiment here and figure this out. And, um, I really, making that first video was very, very, very hard.
But, after you get through those first few ones, it becomes easier.
Marc Beckman: Well, look, it's evident that that net appeared and that's really cool. But I got to ask you just a little bit more about your personality. Are you a risk taker? Have you leaped in other ways of your life and hope that that net would appear? And if so, when and how?
Jessica Yellin: I mean, um, Going into the news was a big leap. I didn't know anybody really who was a newscaster. I didn't know anybody who knew any like, it wasn't something my family came from or I had any easy access to. And when I started, I had monumental rejection. Like, most I got a no, uh, and so it steeled me with determination to [00:26:00] get it done, That's great. and as I was rising in the ranks, I also always wanted to be White House correspondent and encountered endless no's until, uh, I finally got the opportunity to do it.
So, and then, even then, when I got that White House job the first time, it wasn't for me. I was told, we're sending you to the White House as a temporary fill in until we can find someone else we like better. And I
Marc Beckman: And there was no way you were giving that up. Once you had that, there was like, no way I, I see your personality. I mean, there was zero chance that you're going to be like, okay, now you walk in and take this. Right. That was yours. You had the stake.
Jessica Yellin: through hard work, I did it
Marc Beckman: Of course, of course. So, you know, something that I'm struggling with is throughout the last part of our conversation, you're referring to this new phase of your career as if you're an influencer.
And I understand the definition you provided as a creator, et cetera. But for me, If I get the news from an influencer, something about it seems to be missing. Maybe it's not [00:27:00] trustworthy. Maybe it's not accurate. Um, what is it that we need to do, um, to make sure that we're distinguishing, um, let's say an, a typical influencer from a newsworthy, trustworthy, uh, influencer providing, you know, reporting services?
Jessica Yellin: I love this question. Um, for me, this is what needs to develop further in both the audience's awareness and even in the sort of system of, like in social media. think that, I'm a journalist first, and so when I make videos and content for social media, it's as a journalist, like I think I'm providing journalism.
also. make some content that has my opinion or my point of view. I think I'm pretty explicit when I say that, you know, like I'm a pro abortion rights person, pro reproductive rights person, I believe in gun safety rules, etc. but I think the difference [00:28:00] between, one of the key differences between legacy media and all the digital new media that inside legacy media organizations, there are set standards and there are, um, like, Rules and do's and don'ts.
And among them are, you know, you get two sources. If you have an anon, if you're basing something on an anonymous source, you're supposed to have two sources at least. Um, if you are, you know, taking, if, you know, if you're, if you're, if you're Conflict, conflicted in some way, like you're reporting on a thing and your spouse happens to work for that thing.
You've got to either like very much disclose that or give the story to someone else. There's all these guidelines and rules that don't exist in influencer content culture. And. I think influencer content culture is also problematic because they're paid, a lot of people are paid to tell you what they're telling you and they're not reveal, always revealing that, especially in like the beauty space in, in stuff where they're really influencing [00:29:00] purchase decisions.
It's not always transparent at all. And it's true in the political space increasingly as well, where people are paid. I mean, the Department of Justice today revealed That Russia, through a firm, was paying influencers to make content about immigration and domestic policy issues that are meant, that's meant to divide Americans and serve Russia's interest of polarizing our society.
So,
Marc Beckman: Wow.
Jessica Yellin: So When you're consuming this stuff, you don't always know the motives of this person, their standards for providing information, and even who's paying them. And I think that we need tools to help us discern who is trustworthy, what standards they use, and I think audience members should be empowered to ask the creators they follow.
know, What do you do to check a thing before sharing it with us? Who are your sources? Um, are you being paid to tell us this? And if so, by whom?
Marc Beckman: how [00:30:00] far do you think that the creator or the influencer needs to go with regards to disclosing her personal beliefs? For example, you said, you just shared that you're very transparent with your community about things that maybe is not their information, is information that they really have no right to access.
For example, your opinion with regards to being pro choice, like, why does your audience have to know that? And should influencers take it that way? To that level of disclosure, is there, is that a part of new journalist, like a new journalistic level of integrity?
Jessica Yellin: I think that there's, yes, because on some issues, my coverage is pro repro rights. Like, I'm pretty clear that that's what I, like, that's my coverage is, right? Um, It's, it's a tone thing. It's a POV thing. You know, if I'm covering a school shooting, I'm gonna just give you the facts, right? But I might also do a video that explains how [00:31:00] widespread school shootings became after we waived the assault weapons ban, right?
Or, um, There's a law that limits liability for gun manufacturers. You can't sue a gun manufacturer if their product kills people, but you could sue a food company if their product kills people. Why? Um, I'm sharing that information because I think these laws are problematic and I don't, and I want the audience to know that that's a point of view, right?
That's not an objective, like that's not an absolute no, it's just opinion. I think it's a responsible thing to share when your perspective a given, is very strong and clear in certain areas.
Marc Beckman: It's interesting because I think that concept of safeguarding integrity is critical to journalism or even influencer journalism, but I think there's gonna be like a big drop off because when you start to look at the next generation. Um, let's think in terms [00:32:00] of Gen Z and even Gen Alpha, honestly, like my seven year old daughter, Damaris, gets news and comes to me to talk to me from what she's seeing on TikTok.
There's a big drop off when these people are looking at Joe Rogan to report the news. And Joe Rogan, He doesn't care to, he doesn't like fancy himself a journalist. He doesn't care to institute the types of protocols, procedures, traditional safeguards that you're talking about as it relates to the industry of journalism.
So what happens to the next generation, like clearly Joe Rogan is not a journalist and clearly he will never hold himself out to be and therefore he will never institute the protocols that you're talking about. So how do we close the gap when it comes to people like Joe Rogan?
Jessica Yellin: I think it's about people critical media literacy skills and arming the audience with the tools to tell the difference and to be properly skeptical and ask a lot of [00:33:00] questions. You know, a lot of when I referred to the convention, people who got, went, you know, and provided, you know, News coverage from the convention in a way, political information.
weren't always covering politics, right? Some of them are just, are talking about the fashion there, or talking about, you know, uh, the performances. They come at it from different points of view, and then they insert the politics and news into what they're doing. And that's increasingly how younger people are getting their news.
But
Marc Beckman: Yeah,
Jessica Yellin: that they also get news from people who are more traditional. not journalists per se, maybe they haven't worked in a newsroom or they don't that training, but they are professional explainers, right? And when you're listening to those people, I think it's on us and it's on parents to teach some basic skills.
Um, you know, and I have this problem from my friends even who are very educated and very [00:34:00] grown up and they'll send me a video and say, why aren't you reporting this? And somebody's screaming about something and I'll, I'll. I'll watch it and I'll look at the name of the person who made it and you click on their profile and it just says like.
Chas. And you're like, okay, Chas1297. you look up Chas1297,
Marc Beckman: It's a bot!
Jessica Yellin: You're like, is there a, um, a link to a, like, who is this person? What is their credential to say this thing? Where do they come from? Who are they paid by? You, and if there's no information, you're like, don't listen to that person.
Marc Beckman: But that problem, Jessica, goes even further. Like, think about Tucker Carlson this week. He had honestly, like what I would categorize as a fringe historian on his show. So,
Jessica Yellin: white nationalist Nazi is what he is. Like that's a enough. term, fringe historian, white nationalist Nazi lover.
Marc Beckman: fair, fair enough, right? So I agree with you. Obviously, I agree with you. But the problem is that if I trust Tucker Carlson because of his [00:35:00] background as a journalist, and I assume as an adult that he's instituting the same protocols and safeguards that you're articulating, and then he brings in a guest who is a white nationalist Nazi, um, and I'm consuming my content, but I'm not aware that he's not legitimate, right?
Maybe I'm a 20 year old kid in New York City, and I don't, I just trust Tucker Carlson because, you know, I have blind faith. What happens in those situations, like how do we protect the public from those situations?
Jessica Yellin: I agree it's extremely worrying, and Right. we're in this place where we're fragmenting and fragmenting and fragmenting into these smaller and smaller, like, bubbles of people who are getting information from their trusted individuals, and, you know, sorting into like minded communities online. Um, I think that it just means it's imperative that people who are thinking about this culture and especially people who are, you know, have the [00:36:00] money to invest or have the, skills and knowledge of this space don't abandon media and continue to think about what tools can we build to help people understand and make distinctions between who is credible and or what category like this content creator is like what other entities online what community do they reside in so then you can at least see oh Tucker Carlson resides near Nick Fuentes and these other white nationalist people who are explicitly white nationalists, that tells me something about him.
Like, where, where is the innovation in this space to help us have some tools to understand what we're consuming? The one other thing I'll say is we are in this period of rapid change you know, you sort of like split, split, split, and then lump, and it might get to a point where we've gotten so insular in our little bubbles that as a pendulum kind of dynamic, [00:37:00] be innovations that kind of bring us back into network relationships with, where it's not only determined by, you're not only following this one influencer, but you see them as part of a larger community as an online network, maybe.
And that also helps you make judgments about who they are and who they affiliate with.
Marc Beckman: Fair enough. I mean, I, I think that, you know, obviously that's super important, but you also talked earlier about the United States Constitution, um, not just free press, but freedom of speech. So, you know, should Tucker Carlson as a free speech absolutist, right? He like believes in all free speech. Should he host, um, People like that. people on his show that
Jessica Yellin: no. I mean, Tucker Carlson's being cynical and reckless. making these choices and it's unclear why he continues to reflect Kremlin talking points. promote points of view that align with Putin's agenda, um, support despots or foreign leaders who [00:38:00] are also anti NATO and American interests. But he does that with, like, I can, I used to say, it sure seems like, or it sounds like, or people allege that Tucker Carlson does these things.
It is so blatant and explicit now, one doesn't need to. couch anything. He's gone to Russia and talked about how Russian supermarkets show how toxic and dysfunctional America is. You know, it's like, bonkers. So, um,
Marc Beckman: saw that video? I thought it was weird too, but if there are all these tribes, Jessica, that are like built into social media platforms now reporting the news or information from their perspective, like I think you would use the word information wars. Um, at the end of the day, are people just attracted to that information that they want to hear?
Or are they able to cross over and discern from Tucker Carlson versus, you know, perhaps somebody that would realize that Daryl Cooper is a white nationalist, Holocaust denier Nazi.
Jessica Yellin: I mean, it really depends on who, [00:39:00] like, I think that there are people who of course see that for what it is. There are people who love it and flock to it, and then there are people who just get sucked in. And you know, I've done enough reporting on disinformation and propaganda and how this works to understand that to some extent, some of this is like being indoctrinated into a cult.
And when you need, when somebody's coming out, they need, you know, deprogramming basically. It's very true of people in QAnon. And it's hard. I always think that you know, you focus on the people who are curious, like interested in the material, but not yet fully bought in. Those are the people who can be, you know, know, spoken to and engaged with, and there are some clear strategies on the best ways to do that.
You know, it's a lot about like, if you have a family member or friend who's sort of getting pulled into that and super curious, they say, don't tell them it's wrong. Don't dispute the facts because it's oppositional and you'll come up against resistance. You instead ask provocative and leading questions [00:40:00] that they can take away and maybe the questions turn over in their head.
Like, why would he say that about America while he's in Russia? Especially while Russia was holding US hostages, like, or prisoners. That's just so weird. Nobody does that. Why would he do that?
Marc Beckman: But why does he do it? Like, is he an influencer or is he a journalist?
Jessica Yellin: Tucker Carlson's not a journalist. I mean, I
Marc Beckman: But he's not, But he's not, what you are. He's not the same as you. You're talking about standards and protocols and, and safeguards to make sure that the news you're reporting has integrity, yet he's hosting a Nazi.
Jessica Yellin: yes, but I don't think he's a journalist. I think that he's a, uh, extremist, um, like, uh, influence actor. He's a, uh, disruption actor. Like he's, he's peddling propaganda for an agenda. Um, part of the agenda may be to. his, know, get him a lot of eyeballs and clicks. I do notice that, you know, his, [00:41:00] he's gotten less public attention and at the less public attention he gets, the more extreme he becomes.
I don't know to what extent he believes what he's saying, but he's clearly found like a white space in the marketplace that gets him eyeballs.
Marc Beckman: Well, he couldn't report like this on Fox. I mean, that's very obvious, regardless of what your personal thoughts are with regards to the Fox network. Like he couldn't report like this on Fox. So to influencers reporting the news. On social media platforms, have more leeway or the ability to report different types of news.
Jessica Yellin: Of course, I mean, they can say whatever they want. You can host whoever you want. And if you're on X and Elon Musk likes what you're saying, they seem to tune the algorithm. It just coincidentally happens that Tucker Carlson gets way more views than most people on X. uh, you know, it depends who's hosting you, where, and you could do anything you want.
when you talk to people who are experts in extremism in the U. S., um, [00:42:00] You know, national security officials, FBI, law enforcement, what they will say is, um, like QAnon and these conspiracy theories, these far right conspiracy theories, is the first form of extremism that the U.
S. exports to other nations. it is at the top of their list of the greatest threats to the U. S., um, and there, you know, we always talk about pendulum swinging and cultures changing and, you know, ebbs and flows that are natural, but that was before the explosion of this massive technological web that connects us around the world and allows us to share information so rapidly.
Find like minded people or convert like minded people so quickly. And it is a danger. Like, if you're talking about real threatening extremism, it's a danger. You know, that's on the far edge. And I would say that happens on, you know, could happen on the left and the right. but we're seeing it [00:43:00] more, I think, anyway, would say that there's subtler forms of this where people are just sharing divisive messages.
They're sharing amplifying, you know, toxic, hate spreading narratives that are dishonest, misleading. Um, and we don't have checks on it. I was just talking to my brother who has kids who are, you know, 13 and I think eight and how they like, they'll come to him and say, dad, why is this happening? Such and such.
And he'll say, that's not happening. And I'm like, no, so and so told me that on YouTube. And you know, they're informed and they
Marc Beckman: see that too.
Jessica Yellin: And he's like, it's not true. And he tries to explain, but they're very convinced it is because this person they've trusted for a long time is saying it is true.
And I think we need tools and oversight to help enable parents to help kids with this, and we need more regulation on the platforms.
Marc Beckman: Do you [00:44:00] think that we can just also rely on individual integrity and responsibility? You mentioned like Elon Musk and X earlier. Um, like where does Elon Musk's role fit into all of this? Does he have some accountability with regards to making sure that there's a free flow of, of ideas and information, but they're done with integrity and honesty and, and we could trust it?
Or, or does he not have any responsibility?
Jessica Yellin: I mean, can I just say, I came from a family that believed in the best in people, and that My dad was JFK's personal page on the floor of the Democratic Convention in the year of the, in his convention. He was like, you Is that true? yep. Our most Oh, that's so cool. in the house. Like my parents had, you know, objects that were valuable.
We could touch anything, right? If I broke a nice dish, my mom was like, go sweep it up, she didn't scream at me. There's like, objects weren't that precious, but there was one thing I wasn't allowed to touch, [00:45:00] and it was my dad's collection of Life magazines about the JFK assassination, right? Like, he believed in, ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.
He indoctrinated me in that. I grew up believing in do well, do good, and we live in a world now where those are not dominant values, I do not believe that most people are I do not assume that most people are motivated by high integrity and doing the best for everyone. I think some many people are, but I think our culture is deeply craven and our media culture is about taking as much off the table for yourself as you can at whatever price necessary.
And I have encountered that in every, you know, in my career, especially as I've tried to build this brand. And I think Elon Musk is the best example of that. And he is celebrated for it. He's brilliant and enormously talented, he's made great changes for the world, but what he has modeled at X is absolutely destructive to democracy, to [00:46:00] mental health, our faith in the fabric of society.
Marc Beckman: That's pretty,
Jessica Yellin: that was grim.
Marc Beckman: no, that's pretty, that's pretty, uh, that's a very strong statement and, um, it's unfortunate that we can't self regulate at all. It seems like, you know, we're looking at a situation now, like you deferred to it as well, where it's always like the government should regulate. The government should regulate the media.
The government should regulate X, whatever this platform is now. Um, but the reality is that as an adult in society, we should self regulate. There should be, it shouldn't just be a free for all. In my opinion, I think there needs to be freedom of speech, but there also needs to be a situation where, you know, we're not harming young children, or we're not harming the way that systems work within our, um, country.
Uh, infrastructural systems are actually im im impeded from time to time because of false news that's running through social media platforms. So, at what point do we get back to, uh, Um, integrity, respect, [00:47:00] and individuals taking, uh, taking this type of a stance on, on topics like this. Do we ever?
Jessica Yellin: I think you can find enormously high integrity individuals and you can get to spaces where that's what I want to build. I want to build a community where these are trusted voices, right? And if If you're in, if you trust me, these are the people I trust, or if you trust him, those, like, we're, you know, so that's a gated, you know how to discern who, who to believe if you're in our zone, right?
But, and I think there are a lot of places where you can find something like that. That's basically what Conde Nast was in a way, right? That's basically what a network is. But when you're asking, can you broadly just trust the internet? No. And I think it's a little Unfair to say that it's a responsibility of individuals and when they get to build a business and then an algorithm changes, an algorithm [00:48:00] that's invisible to them for which they have no transparency, that destroys their business or their visibility and they have to make adjustments to get their stuff seen.
the truth is, is these platforms are having it both ways, where they pretend to be neutral environments to Host content, then they're putting their finger on the scale to send much more content out if it's certain kinds of content, right? And that's not neutral. And that's what I think needs to be either more transparent to the public and or regulated.
Marc Beckman: Jessica, that's on social media, but aren't we talking about the same conundrum in legacy media? Like you and I, uh, had previous conversations about the concept of being addicted to stories and you spoke about it. You hinted to it a little bit earlier when you mentioned the fact that, um, legacy media journalists are today chasing the narrative that receives the most clicks.
So are they? Is it more important for legacy media to [00:49:00] monetize the content or to report the facts? Isn't legacy media guilty to a certain extent of what social media is guilty
of today?
Jessica Yellin: To a The extremes on social media are much broader, wider, like the delta is much wider on social media and the harms are much greater. Inside legacy media, there are ways in which the content and the choices have been changed by the profit motive and by, you know, the technology that shows them how to, you know, grab the public's anxiety.
And so choices get made around, they make choices about that. Um, and. You know, I think the media has become much more opinion driven and less objective and all
Marc Beckman: For sure. For sure.
Jessica Yellin: But we do know if you're a viewer, you know FoxLean's right. And there's, and if you're a viewer, you know FoxLean's right and that some people say they stuff that's not quite true often.
Um, [00:50:00] if you're a viewer, you know MSNBCLean's left and they, and, and the range of what they will report. is much less, like, yes, they'll put on the loudest voices from Congress, but they won't, but when they put on people who lie, they to correct that. Now, I know there are exceptions and there are times they fail at the job, but they do have these standards and aim to uphold those standards.
I think, you know, when I say that they don't report things, it's like, they don't report on poverty. They don't, they'll go into parts of this community when there's like, Uh, a riot or a police killing, right? But in between, you don't really hear about what's going on in communities where those things happen very often.
Um, there are parts of the country, the world, they don't report on, right? Because they don't get enough eyeballs, or they think they won't. You know, there's a lot, until, sorry, until recently they didn't report on women's health much. You know, [00:51:00] abortion was being eroded for 50 years and got very little coverage until Dobbs because it wasn't considered an attractive or interesting story that would get eyeballs.
It's that kind of thing. It's not platforming a Nazi loving, Holocaust denying, you know, extremist like Tucker Carlson. So we need to have like a little bit of, you know, context for how we're criticizing these different categories of voices.
Marc Beckman: How connected are the political parties to the legacy media now? Like it seems that they're They're almost like this, this like, uh, pack mentality, not just with like an addiction to telling the same stories, but also the way they tell the stories. So like something will happen and you'll hear, hear all the reporters, whether it's on the right or on the left, using the same words, using the same phrases, the same terms of art.
And then you see the politicians using them as well. Are the politicians influencing legacy media? Are the political parties influencing legacy media?
Jessica Yellin: I mean, [00:52:00] let's just step back think about, like, the beginning of this conversation where you asked the president's there for four years and the media's there a, you know, a permanent reality. I don't remember the exact quote. Of course, Oscar Wilde said it better. Uh, what he did.
Marc Beckman: Of course.
Jessica Yellin: Uh, who cover politics.
live in, you know, live in DC and New York and they, in that category of politics, and they spend time with the elected officials and they have, you know, when I was in that space, they had us in for briefings. I remember there was this time when was covering the Iraq war and Or before I got to Washington, I noticed that everybody started calling the response to something robust with the war.
There's a robust response. And I'm like, why is everybody calling it robust? That's just specific and odd word for a military response. And then I started, I got to the White House, I started covering the briefings and, you know, the background briefings, and they were discussing this as robust. And so, you know, you go out and you use that word.
Sometimes that's [00:53:00] how that happens,
Marc Beckman: Interesting. Yeah.
Jessica Yellin: Um,
Marc Beckman: know that. That's interesting.
Jessica Yellin: but is it necessarily? I think that's problematic when there's no critical coverage in addition, when those are the only language, that's the only language used to talk about it, or when the only stuff that gets through are the topics and framing that the White House or people in power choose.
It is not in itself a bad thing to reflect what their policy makers are saying. to convey that to the public. I think we would be served to have more of that. if you heard regularly from the White House why they are making the choices they are making in global conflicts in the U. S., right?
Here's why we're sending weapons to such and such place. Tell us over and over and over again. Wouldn't that help the conversation around these conflicts? Like, I think that's important and it's not done enough. what you need to do as journalists is also cover other things like the criticism or what [00:54:00] that is doing that the White House isn't talking about, right?
the surround sound stuff that needs to be filled in more.
Marc Beckman: So much of it seems like so, um, sophomoric from time to time too now. Like last night, I think Peter Doocy was questioning, um, about, uh, Kamala, Kamala Harris's accent, uh, or, or tone that she was using in a certain setting. Like, it just seems like there, there's just even fighting in, in, you know, in, you know, at a level that just doesn't make sense.
Right.
Jessica Yellin: but that goes back to why I started News Not Noise. Like, literally, my My brand is called News Not Noise and it's our tagline is we give you information, not a panic attack to correct from all that because the news became so noisy with all these like silly, shallow questions about like, and so didn't return so and so's call on Capitol Hill, oh my god,
Marc Beckman: Right.
Jessica Yellin: you know, who cares, or
Marc Beckman: Totally ridiculous.
Jessica Yellin: [00:55:00] suit, or
Marc Beckman: Right.
Jessica Yellin: Harris's, you know, Having like a twang when she's talking in a southern state.
Marc Beckman: Right. We're living in the age of dumb, Jessica.
Jessica Yellin: It's also a vibes election, right? Like the candidates are themselves not talking that much about policy. This is not exactly a policy dense campaign. And a lot of it's being waged on social media. A lot of it's just about these spots and ads and attacks. And it's a, it's a feeling, it's a vibe, it's a brat summer.
It's a, you know, MAGA scene. So part of the. Reporting is keying off of that too. And they both amplify and extend one another.
Marc Beckman: I wonder if that vibes election moment is because of the politicians and their parties or because of the American public. Like, has America been living off of soundbites for so long now that we just don't want to do the work? You know, we're the voters, but we don't want to do the research. [00:56:00] We don't want to do the work.
It's enough for you to, you know, Hit me emotionally to make me look at warfare and look at certain rights that I'm gonna lose if the opposition is elected. Um, maybe the Americans are to blame.
Jessica Yellin: I used to want to say all the time, like when I was on CNN, people would ask like, why is, why is Congress like this? And I wanted to say, it's because of you, the voters, you're electing these people. Could be, sadly. you know, when I started making my videos. I could make a five minute video or a three minute video.
Now, people want 90 second videos. The stuff that performs best is less than 30 seconds, right? Like, there's no Nuggets. the complexity of life in that way. But I, we should also point out that podcasts do well, that, you know, streamers have an entire business of documentaries. Like there is a place for more depth.
Um, just so happens that it's generally crime stories that people want, but whatever.
Marc Beckman: [00:57:00] But, but certainly it's detrimental to America's health. I mean, think about, for example, we have the Republican, uh, excuse me, the presidential debate coming Yeah. um, to me, when I was younger, the presidential debate was really, really amazing because you would get policy arguments that were, um, giving us like insight into Would propel into the future, right?
Like these are concepts, whether it's a social concept, an economic concept, a geopolitical concept, but here are new, innovative ideas that the presidential candidate from the left and the right are going to provide and show us how we can advance as humankind. Now, how could we take such big concepts and in a two minute debate with a timer, add value to the American public?
You, I just don't think it's possible.
Jessica Yellin: the Republican primary before Trump was a nominee, they had a period where it was one minute answers for everything and they had like nine people on stage. All right. What is that? [00:58:00] Next. even, let alone a debate, that's just like a shout fest, I agree. in your most out, and it's just about, it's because the public isn't, doesn't want to listen and they won't be, you know, there's this assumption that people won't be patient and listen to the longer answers. I mean we have, you know, our attention spans have shortened and we don't, there are a lot of problems to
Marc Beckman: know,
Jessica Yellin: with.
Marc Beckman: for sure. I think it would be, I think there would be a lot of people, um, that at least, at least friends and family that I know who would listen to a three hour conversational debate, a conversational style intellectual smart debate between Harris and Trump, you know, give them three hours, give them enough, um, reach and, and, and, and, um, breath to really deep.
Flush out their ideas and their policies and their vision. But, you know, Jessica, you've been so amazingly generous with all of your time, but before I let you go, we have a [00:59:00] tradition here on the show. Some future day, the name of the show was inspired by James Joyce. And what I like to do is I like to have each guest finish a leading It's almost like a leading question.
I start the sentence, you end it. Are you game?
Jessica Yellin: Yes, but I'm not prepared for this.
Marc Beckman: No, that's the whole trick here, come on. So in some future day, Americans will be ready for neutral based media, when? In some future day, the American public will be ready for neutral based media, for neutral content, when?
Jessica Yellin: I'm going to say within 10 years. I'm told that that is the horizon when AI will be up to speed, will be able to function the way we need it to function. And it is my hope that with that development, uh, we [01:00:00] will have more sophisticated ability to get sources that are from a variety of perspectives and understand where the information is situated.
And that will help us Uh, demystify some of what we have been talking about and people will be able to seek out more neutral information.
Marc Beckman: Jessica, is there anything else that you'd like to address or talk to before we, before we end?
Jessica Yellin: I would just say that folks who are following anyone, even if it's a media brand, take the time to look at who is on the board, who is financing it, who founded it, what their standards are. Feel free to ask them. there's a lot of new media that's being set up. Sometimes it's by people who are just wealthy individuals who want to get their point of view out.
Um, sometimes it's people who have a very specific point of view. Sometimes it's funded by Russia and you don't even know it. So it's worth asking those questions and, um, checking out [01:01:00] who is the person giving you this information, um, and having the confidence that you have that right to know.
Marc Beckman: Big statement, Jessica. Thank you so much for joining us today. I appreciate it.
Jessica Yellin: Thanks for having me and for the work you're doing. This was a super interesting conversation. Last thing I'd say is if you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram, @jessicayellin, and on Substack at News Not Noise.