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The Sum of All Wisdom is built on a simple idea: music IS the sum of all wisdom.
More than a podcast, The Sum of All Wisdom is a community and resource platform dedicated to exploring music as a way of knowing. Music is humanity's oldest way of knowing and one of our best technologies for making meaning, and through long-form conversations with musicians, producers, writers, and cultural thinkers—along with performances, essays, and educational resources—we investigate the creative life and what it teaches us about memory, identity, creativity, community, and the human condition.
Whether you're a musician, artist, scholar, or simply someone who loves music and believes it matters, The Sum of All Wisdom is an invitation to listen more deeply: to great music, to the people who make it, and to the wisdom gained through a life devoted to music and musical worlds.
Because music is more than entertainment. It is one of humanity's most ancient ways of understanding the universe and our place in it.
The Sum of All Wisdom, with your host, Dr. Scott Catey
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (00:17)
close your eyes and listen to the music because music is absolutely innocent and music is so beautiful i don't care who's singing i mean i care about music
Scott Catey (00:27)
Once upon a time, listening to music was an event. You went to the record store. If you were lucky, they had listening booths and you could explore new sounds in this perfect setting. But one way or another, you bought a record. You carried it home, you carefully unwrapped it, you studied the cover, you pulled out the sleeve, or if it was one of those special ones, you opened the gatefold sleeve and you read the liner notes, and you slid out the vinyl, held it so gently at the edges, examined the grooves.
Looked at the surface, flipped it, flipped it again, blew off any dust that might have settled, and set it on the turntable, already spinning, waiting for this gift. You made sure the volume was up, and you lowered the needle into the groove. And then you had the immediate encompassing warmth of the first crackle of the needle settling in, and then the music. Whatever it was, Zeppelin or the Beatles,
George Jones or Miles Davis or Ferranti and Teicher or any of thousands of others, you got comfortable and listened. was email to answer. There was no scrolling through social media, no half watching three other screens. You listened and you dug the music. And then somewhere along the line, music became background. And then worse, it became content. And today millions of songs are just available instantly.
Algorithms assume what we like and endlessly segue into the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And these playlists follow us from the gym to the grocery store to the car to home to everywhere. not like mixtapes used to. Not because we want them, but because they're convenient. They fit our stressed, diverted life. Music is everywhere, but at the same time it's really nowhere. Our attention has become fragmented.
Every notification competes for it, every platform monetizes it, and every artist and creative is told they must fight for dwindling shares of it, likes, comments, DMs, shares, all the things that add up to metrics. So what? What are we supposed to do about it? Conventional wisdom says that attention is scarce, success belongs to those who capture more of it, but for me and for many of my guests.
That answer starts from the wrong end. The question isn't how do I get more attention? It's how do I create the conditions for people to want to give me their attention? Instead of extracting attention, how do I offer the invitation to listen, to slow down, to be attentive, and to find transformation through musical experience in those acts? My guests today, vocalist, composer, and producer Karo Glazer, along with immersive audio producer Michal Rosa Rosicki.
Have dedicated themselves to that question. Their work explores a world where music is no longer something happening in front of you, but an experience that takes place around you and involves you. A world where architecture and composition are partners in creating sound that inhabits space, where audiences become participants and where listening becomes an act of presence.
Along the way, our conversation takes us from the Artists for Peace production of a song called Hand in Hand, which we'll hear in the episode, to Abbey Road Studios and a concert production there, to international collaborations from the future of Dolby Atmos to the challenges facing artists in the age of artificial intelligence. As I spoke with Karo and Mike, and later as I edited the program, I noticed that one core idea really kept resurfacing.
It's an idea that has also been key to previous conversations on this podcast, namely the shift that occurs for us, whether we're musicians or composers or listeners, when we stop treating music as a product and start treating it as an experience. This is my conversation with Karo and Mike of Red Producers, and it's part one of a two part conversation.
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (04:26)
I think the best would be creative teamwork and why people like us who has totally like different skills decided to work together to build something more because in music business we very often think only about okay I'm an artist and I'm an sound engineer and I think only about who I am in this business but we
Me as a solo artist, I don't exist without people surrounding me, without my team.
the music is a human and without music emotion and composition our work doesn't have sense
Scott Catey (05:11)
So let's jump into the how you know each other. How do you know each other? Where do you both come from? What's some backstory for you? How long have you been in the music industry?
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (05:18)
Yeah. How long?
How long have you been? It's a long story. All our life we do only music. Yeah, actually we are lucky enough to say that, proudly we've earned everything in our lives making music, which is kind of a big success, I think nowadays. But I always say that I didn't...
Scott Catey (05:28)
Mm.
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (05:46)
I didn't choose music, I was chosen by music and I think you had the same. So when I was around 17, I think, and I knew I want to be just, I don't know, not a singer, but a musician, producer. I didn't know what to do actually because I was really a very creative person, but I needed to record my first song because I want to be part of a big, big jazz competition.
And our friend, he owned the studio and he said, yeah, just, just, just jump to me and there will be a guy and he will record you. And that was him.
So you are young. I'm a young student of Sound Engineering High School. And I also started around 17 because before I played in the band, a very punk rock band, and after I started our first recording, I stayed in the studio on the opposite side of the wall.
cool and I was really into jazz or more ⁓ rock music but more Led Zeppelin, Janis Joplin, this flavor rather than punk. I don't get punk music but that's me. Anyway he loves it. But yeah and I came to you and you said okay let's record it so I brought my band and that was my first recording in my life.
And this is how we met. And then later, actually, we didn't work together, not because we didn't like each other, but because I was really focused on vocal, singing, producing and all of this stuff. And he didn't want to work with singers, vocalists. So I worked with many orchestra, free jazz old Chicago free jazz No singers, no singers.
and many experimental music. Yeah and I was really into the composition and the structure because I was all at the same time I was studying jazz singing composition and architecture so that that's my mind very very ⁓ into building something together and you were more like a I don't know like a mess like like
free jazz and yeah, this is how we totally, totally different approach we had. But I work very often with full orchestra and there was really composition in harmony and if you put a little chaos, it's ⁓ emotion in harmony. I travel a lot with my band, which I produce. This is
three accordions and we play over 40 countries like Carnegie Hall, Copacabana, Beechwood, Rochester and after with this our experience, different experience. Yeah, then again, like with my band also in Europe.
Scott Catey (09:00)
think a little chaos is
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (09:05)
I was recording in the my album, Crossings Project, with Mike Stern, with Martin Walters. I spent a lot of time in the US, like California and New York. Then I moved to Scotland. I lived in Edinburgh and in London five years. So I was really a lot of road. And then I came back to Poland when the COVID happened. actually, this is when we met again more and we started working on different productions because we both...
We were working both in the same studio, like me as a vocal producer and you as a sound engineer. And then we started thinking that maybe we go this way, that way. And very important moment is when Russia decided to attack ⁓ Ukraine because... ⁓
Exactly this day I was ⁓ conducting workshop, singer songwriter workshop and I was telling young people how to compose, how to make music and it happened and he came to the studio. I had a phone from Ukraine from my friend and band which I work and they told me help us write a song.
tell the world what's happened in our country but in your language in musical language then go to studio to Karo and said stop this is not workshop we must write the song it is and I look at him and said wow in one day with them you know they're not professional but he said yes now and so
We had a talk in the kitchen in our studio and I said, okay, let's try out. So I went to the piano and I, it was natural. I played the first chord and this is how I started writing a "Hand in Hand" song. And actually I wrote it in, I don't know, in two hours, the song. Like a- three days we have more than 30 musicians from all over the They play part of the song. It's amazing one.
and this is artist hand in hand yeah and this is this is actually the i could say the real beginning of of what we do in Red Producers and the beginning of the Red Producers yeah yeah and after 11 days we have a video the famous polish director Agnieszka Holland helped us to to make the video where i had a dream because my friend ⁓ he's ⁓
Scott Catey (11:21)
It is. listened to this this morning.
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (11:50)
excellent Bolshoi theater dancer and actually he was trying to escape Russia because he used to live in Poland but he just jumped to Russia to pick up some award or something like that was different like strange coincidence but anyway he wasn't able to leave Russia so
I didn't know what's gonna happen and another friend, also a dancer, she's from Ukraine. She had problems because her parents were in Kharkov. for me, because I also have this ⁓ visual mind, music is great when you have beautiful visual together, when everything fits together. And I said, how can we present it to the world? Because it's not about... ⁓
It's not about war, it's about peace. And then I said, okay, if he comes back, if he makes it from... So Russian ballet dancer has to dance with Ukrainian ballet dancer. And this is how it happened. That was my dream that they together as a symbol of peace gonna dance. And it happened. And we did this video like, I don't know, 10 days after recording the song. So the whole project was ready.
In two weeks in general with the whole production promotion and then later people from all over the world started Remixing the song ⁓ And this is we decided to help like to say it loudly to say it loudly that okay This is this is how we think we should support the situation and more or less this was this was our first project and We didn't have company those days, but but ⁓
we knew that we want to work together. later... is also the idea of Red Producers. The hand-to-hand together, the Russian with Ukrainian as a symbol of peace, but from songwriting through production to invite very famous instrumentalists and different...
folk instrument to one song and after this make the video that everything works together to one idea. Yeah.
And this is very ours. Like, like I hate when people only ask me write a song. I said, okay, what for? You know, it's just like
I write a song every single day but it's not my hobby. Just tell me where is something more because it should be always something more. It's not about my pleasure only, it's about making a difference in the world. this is what we started then and now it's really where we go. And I think after...
we decided to build a company, Red Producers, and we started working more together. Then we became a couple. We are husband and wife, luckily. ⁓ Thank you. After 20 or something years of knowing each other. yes, magic happens. And you never know who's going to be your future husband. Anyway, I'm joking. But yeah, it's just like when we are together, ⁓ we have totally different...
Scott Catey (18:42)
Congratulations.
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (19:02)
point of views, approach, skills and so on. I think that's why we are so comfortable together.
Scott Catey (19:12)
So partly what you've described also sounds like the immersive experience, right? It's not just about songwriting. It's not just about producing. It's about a team and something wider about, think if I'm understanding, bring in the audience in a way that is much more compelling, right? As a listening experience.
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (19:17)
Mm-hmm.
Indeed, indeed.
My background is jazz and I played so many jazz concerts in my life. But being a jazz singer and improvising is kind of tough. mean, you're from New York, so you know how it is. Like I spent lots of time ⁓ in 55 Bar, like, of course, Blue Note and Smalls with Roy Hargrove, all of these cats. And it's great. It's really nice.
It's improvising, improvising, improvising, which is cool. But when you are a singer, then they ask you to sing, fly me to the moon. Yeah, sure. And be Diana Krall. And I felt so not on my place. Like I always had a different vision. Like for me, it's always about composing, about building something more. And then I found out that, you know, mostly people like
who are into great music, they don't care about how it looks. Like the vision is like, no, it doesn't matter, know, just T-shirts. just, just, and that was to me. No, it's not how it is. Then I found out that maybe, maybe I need something more. And actually when I was studying architecture and music at the same time, because my dad was an architect. So that was my whole life. Like I was always surrendered by people like this.
I didn't want to finish architecture but he said please, please do it for me and I said alright, okay dad I'm gonna finish for you. ⁓ And now I'm really grateful because composing immersive music is about space and time and this is completely a game changer in the history of music that now it doesn't matter only
what you're singing, performing now, but where? Where in the space exactly you want to hear my voice? And you cannot just be a songwriter, a composer who thinks this way about composing. You need to start thinking that, okay, I'm here, but my voice is over there. And so what can we do when we talk about composition? Okay, so maybe I start my composition in
this corner and then it's gonna fly over here and you see I don't need to change the note even because the structure is about space not about the rhythm or the melody which is absolutely new thing in in composing music and this is the next possibility
say the story, not only notes. You have space, position, movement much more different ⁓ possibilities to keep the focus and why I'm so much into it because you know I hate streaming I really hate what's going on over there like I'm really ⁓
Scott Catey (22:42)
Yeah.
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (22:44)
I don't want to say this bad word, but I'm fucked up on streaming. Like I don't exist over there as an artist. And they look at me and say, you really do something. I say, yeah, I do. know, but in Dolby Atmos, for example, uploading Dolby Atmos files, it's not that easy. You know, that's also how world has changed that being independent doesn't mean that everything is for everybody. So you need to find gaps. So I said, all right, let's find out how we can do be really creative. I don't want to compete because I don't want to. I never.
you know i never wanted to compete i never wanted to be a huge star i always wanted to be a creative person but what streaming does now to to you young generation of musicians is that they think it's just repetition repetition i'm gonna make the same song 20 times and then i'll go if i'm gonna learn it and then i'm gonna be you know well known and this is how it looks
the same algorithm, the same volume normalization, the same... same, same, same, same, same, same, same. Where is the tension? Where is the composition? Where is the surprise? And I'm dedicated to surprise, to do something different, like let's be creative. to me, online streaming doesn't give people any experience of real music nowadays. So I said, okay, so there are new...
ways of expressing what you want to do. ⁓ And actually, this is what we decided to do, to go deep and learn because it's still about learning because nobody knows actually how does it really work. ⁓ also that's very exciting. Yeah.
Scott Catey (24:24)
So you said, Karo, that composing for immersive, for Dolby Atmos is a different sort of thing. But I want to also hear about how do you produce that kind of sound? How do you make a composition work in the production to be an immersive experience through Dolby or something else?
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (24:31)
Absolutely.
Well,
first it's about what's going on here. And this is the way of changing your mindset as a composer. It's not only a song, it's a space. And the space can really help you or can destroy what you're creating. For example, if you think you're gonna make great immersive music, being a singer-songwriter, me and my guitar, no, it's not gonna happen.
Because to build immersive sound, need to think about structure. You need to really know ⁓ all the micro rhythms between all the instruments. Because when you have a stereo sound, know, example, you have a brass section, yes, and you have trumpet, sax and trombone. They sound fabulous when they're in mono, like...
the old, you know, the Beatled way, Blood Sweat and Tears, all of this band, they are absolutely fabulous because they are all over there like a one. Then imagine in immersive sound, had, I've made this because I also thought it's going to be so easy. So the records, the session that was recorded before ⁓ immersive sound, I was trying to arrange in immersive. So trumpet here, trombone over there and sax.
it doesn't work because it doesn't work when when you separate them so when you compose music when you produce music and you know it's gonna be immersive you need to start from the scratch and build the composition and the production really the way how it's gonna work because people think ⁓ i have a band can you make me a dolby atmos mix well no
Well, we can, of course we can, but usually you have to come back to arrangements to really do it well or just to have something creative. me Dolby Atmos or Immersive Life Sound, it's always that the audience can hear orchestra in conductor place. You don't hear first violin.
you hear sixth violinist on third violin and me as a producer I can create where they are and change the music. Yes it is, it's very often. But I love work together during composition in really immersive setup because sometimes Karo sings, sometimes plays something.
I can this first note plays somewhere and give them position and space that I create atmosphere and after this first note Karo changed the second note, changed the composition because they hear this first chord in
plays an atmosphere. It's just like, okay, normally artists performing on a stage, live stage, everything is planned. Let's say, you know, a big concert, big show, everything is planned. So I am the artist, I'm leading. You have public and then you have sound engineer who has to, of course, create great sound.
but that's just a regular thing so I'm not gonna react on the stage what he's doing at this moment now because you know I'm singing on ears like I don't know what's going on on front you know what I mean it's like this when you work on immersive sound live what he does with the sound is a part of composition so it's more or less also
improvising with space so I can't be just performing I have to listen and follow him he follows me I follow him so my notes my music follows the space that he creates so now it's really about you know team because I'm not able to to perform solo without Michal
And Michal needs an artist who's so open to really follow what he does. So it doesn't work when you are really alone and you really have to open yourself that you don't ⁓ have control. You have to let it go. have to... And that's why you have to be...
ready to go wherever it goes, even when you have, of course, the composition and there's a structure because there has to be a structure without it, you're lost. Absolutely. ⁓ Especially when I'm looping my voice, you know, from the mic to mic and every step is counted because every step matters. It's about moving your body, singing at the same time and listening to your voice from different places.
I think it's really the future of music and performance, but it's totally different genre. It's a new genre. It's something new. Like, I don't know if it's even a genre. It's something new. Why we said that this is the future because the audience is the same place like musician, like composer. They are a part of this space and the space is a part of composition.
and the normal concert they hear okay I go to the bar I come back I hear in this immersive life no they are into the composition yeah and when you have strong visuals at the same time or or for example what I love also total darkness they really need to focus on what's going on and that's amazing because it's like
being in a game or being in a movie and you can really build tension. I think like, and you can't play two hours show like that because it's too much for people. It's too much. It's over, you know, the system is overloaded and they really need to take a break because it's so intense. And that's why you have to really think as a composer, as an artist on the stage.
just you can't break them because it's so easy actually to make immersive sound and everybody will be so annoyed and will say that god what is this I hate it because it's very easy to make it in the wrong way
Scott Catey (32:03)
It seems like it, especially today, right, when our attention is so fragmented by all of the digital things that we do, that being in that immersive environment would really change the way that you're asking people to listen, to be there, and to embody what it is that you're doing.
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (32:18)
Actually to listen, to listen just...
Yeah, because we too often frame artists into what we think about them. And like I remember the moment when I was I'm not a huge fan of Miley Cyrus, but what they did on the last album is amazing. I mean, the album is one of the most beautiful albums I've heard in my life. But when I said it loudly and I asked my cousin or something, yeah. And I said, just just go and listen to her.
no no no she said you know a country girl no puppy girl i'm not i'm too i'm to something more i said hmm okay close your eyes now okay just close your eyes and listen don't judge close your eyes and listen to the music because music is absolutely innocent and music is so beautiful and just just listen okay just just i don't care who's singing i mean i care about music
And it's so hard nowadays just to make people listen because they brand it, they put it into the box that they know and they are not curious enough to really focus on something new. For example, me and Jazz, you I don't sing Jazz. I've never been really singing Jazz. What I can say was always contemporary music, more into Pink Floyd and all of this rather than really, you know...
jazz like even when you're to talk with Mike Stern he's going to tell you I don't play jazz I play rock and roll you know but people put you into the box that they feel comfortable and it's impossible to to change the way of their thinking and and this is what I found out I'm not fighting I'm just okay just say whatever you want but when you perform immersive sound or when you close your eyes and you listen to Dolby Atmos
then you can really build your relationship with music, pure music, no name, no brand, just music. And this is where we really want to go. Yeah, we are maybe naive. I'm naive. I know I am.
Scott Catey (34:29)
What's the next step for you to get down that road that you're trying to travel? Where are you now in producing this and getting it out to an audience that appreciates it? And what happens next? What's the next five or 10 months look like for you?
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (34:41)
Actually, ⁓ now we are also finishing the production from Abbey Road, from my concert from Abbey Road. So this is our next step because that was big thing to sing solo immersive at Abbey and also with a band. So this is our focus. Now we are trying to find a good distributor for the whole project. So that's number one.
Scott Catey (34:47)
and
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (35:06)
When we talk about immersive, even tomorrow we have a meeting with a promoter that is very interesting in ⁓ my piece of music, is immersive ballet, Illumination. It's a 45 minute music ⁓ in immersive sound with contemporary ballet dancers with lights. so this is a whole production that we've done like...
years ago and now we want to come back to playing this. The problem with immersive sound is very prosaic, is finding a space with the whole system is very hard. But... Well, we work with two distributors because there are two systems in the world nowadays that let you to work
in this new idea of immersive sound. We both, with both of them, German and French companies. And it's also funny that depending on the system you have to compose differently because they are more or less different and a little bit different way of, you know, where is the punch of the music. But anyway, ⁓ it's so hard to sell it because people
can't see immersive sound. So you have to make them somehow experience it. And then later they say, wow, it's amazing. This is what we had after the illumination, after the premiere of the ballets. Wow, I couldn't even breathe. That was absolutely wow. One thing. And I said, yes, that's my goal. One message. One thing. One experience. One. Not
hundreds. So we're like trying to build that. That's my goal to build this year at the end of this year, a tour, like 10 concerts in Europe with immersive sound solo concerts with one of our distributors. We also had some ⁓ some talks with American. So maybe maybe we're going to come back. Come back. Yeah, come back. Yeah. After the last year to the US and maybe play something as well.
Because I see that, you know, US market is much more open to immersive sound rather than here. Like in Europe is very conservative. And Americans are open for really music. Yes. yes. This what we will say as a European. American listeners really listen to the music. Yes. This is pop. This is jazz. American. Wow. This is good music. This is bad music. Yes, we love it.
And in Europe another problem is you're from Germany, you're from Poland, you're from Sweden. It's more important than the music, you know, and I hate it because music shouldn't be, you know, part of the politics or all of this. I have one thing about this immersive. You said about this hall and equipment and the content, the composition for immersive is really problem. Yes, it's problematic.
For example, the place that we're today, they have the system... four years ago. play only one show per -- for Immersive. One show during four years. Because... It's problematic because artists, they don't know how to make it. They are not into space.
Sound engineers, they don't want to learn. They think only about technique. So you need to find someone who's really crazy about the whole process. You have to be really multi-talented somehow to really or to build the team or have a vision that it can be something more. And the problem is that big stars, they won't make it because it costs them too much to reorganize the whole production.
The small one doesn't know that the immersive even exists. So only people like us with skills, the knowledge and technical connections like with the business or without contracts ⁓ are the one that are free enough to be crazy enough to invest focus and our vision into this.
But it's a big problem because we talk with many owners of the system that they don't have music, they don't have content to play it. That's a big problem. That's big problem. That's one master. So, so, so, uh, yes, David Byrne is, think that the, best.
Scott Catey (40:10)
right.
He's on the cutting edge of all that. ⁓
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (40:12)
And David Byrne
I think is the best promoter of the idea, really. So this is the goal for us, like this way of what he does. And he knows it. ⁓ But it's not too many people like that big and that brave as him. And you need to have this hunger of...
and curiosity of doing something differently. And I think this is for people like that. If you want to be just a singer songwriter, being popular, know, having thousands of followers, ⁓ I think it's not for you. But if you want to do something more and you want to create something ⁓ bigger, I think you can be in love. But Karo always said, good song is a good song.
we can do immersive tech everything crazy composition blah blah blah but the good song is a good song David Byrne do the same psycho killer and immersive song also works but he knows how to rearrange it how to
Scott Catey (41:32)
does.
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (41:32)
adapt it and he you know, he spent some time doing this And others maybe are too lazy. I don't want to say that but often it's like that that, you know, the producer will come say, you know, it costs too much You know, let's stop thinking about it, you know, how many people will listen to it, you know But the people which listen Immersive this is your real fun. Yeah, yeah this experience you take home. It's just like
It is like and they're gonna come back they're gonna buy your vinyl They're gonna come back again to your show because they know that they're gonna get something that they never gonna get You know during the normal concert and you know immersive sound is not only live But also we know people who are into live streaming immersive sound as well so you can you know say that home and listen to to the music in your binaural ⁓ headphones and and
we see that more and more, and it's coming from gaming and especially Gen Z, they are really into it and they want more and more and more. So why not, you know, bring music to this level? ⁓ And I think ⁓ it's going to take us next five years to adopt. Now we have all of this AI, you know, news and AI who destroys
everything and people only talk about what new technology is AI you know what I mean like others doesn't doesn't don't exist so so I think ⁓ this is this is long term commitment for us it's not now ⁓ so at the same time we me as as Karo I need to build my service normal artists you know I ⁓
I really go into the music ⁓ made by voice. so, ⁓ you know, I'm, I'm trying to make the orchestra using only my voice because that's really fascinating to me. And especially in immersive sound, you know, voice can sound like good sense guitar, and you really can make crazy, crazy stuff. But I also say to Michal all the time, okay, it has to work as still.
in stereo because we need to play more concerts not only so we are realistic it's not like you know we only go to immersive when artists want to release album it's they need ⁓ vinyl version streaming version cd version and dolby atmos and then this is three vinyl
Digital and stream and Dolby Atmos is three different arrangement and three different production and Forth format is a live session Yeah, also like live So we're trying to find solutions as well as a business company We are trying to find solutions like because the problem is that it costs too much, you know for for independent artists
or even for labels like mostly labels say I don't want to go into Dolby Atmos. No, no, no. Very often like publishers like I had a I had big talk now in London about ⁓ about Dolby Atmos catalog and I said, come on, if I'm a director and I I make movie in Dolby Atmos and I have music already done in Dolby Atmos, it's cheaper for me to buy Dolby Atmos music. And at the same time, if I
me as a composer and artist deliver in Dolby Atmos it means that I'm not the beginner because I cannot be because you have to know something more about music to deliver you know Dolby Atmos or you at least you have to have money to you know work with people who can who can make it so and you tell me that no you know it's just like come on where's the business I don't get it you know and I think it's because they don't know because they don't know it's it's it's about
that they we need to talk about it. So thank you very much that we can speak loudly about it because it's about building the immersive community. Yes, our friend from Amsterdam, this is how we said like, let's build an immersive community all over the world because it's not only about music, it's about light. It's about dance. It's about public. It's about
everything because more or less it's like mindfulness you know immersive is really the art of mindfulness now in in 21st century i really believe it because this is the moment when you can sit down and take a break as a listener or or or just a fan like let's do something for yourself like like this is my idea now
Scott Catey (46:17)
Mm-hmm.
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (46:42)
I also said that vinyl is also immersive because you take you look on the cover you open the cover and put the vinyl on the turntable and it's so it's also immersive for me now in this crazy AI digital world yes so everything is you can you can really touch feel ⁓
Scott Catey (46:52)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (47:08)
and forget about the reality but not Netflix, know, not this stuff, just how to be really in something. And I believe more or less this is the future. And yeah, but there is still a lot of work to do.
Scott Catey (47:27)
It's a bit like a kind of technological full circle, right? So we started with just live music and then there was 78s and wax pressings and then we got into tape and then we got into LPs and then CDs came. And now we're looping back to this, what is the real experience of music is live music and the immersive experience of that is so much better than music as an object.
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (47:51)
Yeah, it's just like, you know,
touch. For example, I believe that touch will be very, very important, like that it's physical. We miss it, I think, like we really as people miss it. And after the AI, ⁓ it was the beginning of the year, like two of the the young artists that I was working with and they had the debut albums. ⁓
they sent songs to the radio stations, both different countries. One was ⁓ in Germany, one was in London. They put so much effort, energy, creativity into their music. And you know what people said in the radio stations? ⁓ AI, AI did it. And they were really like crushed, like, come on. And then they told me, Karo, you're lucky. I said, why?
Scott Catey (48:37)
can imagine.
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (48:49)
Is it because you've been doing music for all your life so no one can tell you that it's made by AI but we are at the beginning of the way and they say it's AI they don't value our work and that was really sad so so that's really sad
Scott Catey (49:03)
It is really sad. How
do you overcome that? How do you change the mindset of people who are listening to music and just assuming that AI, because it's new, the music is produced by AI? What's the remedy there?
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (49:18)
I just believe that live live performing live live acts like that you are real and you again build your audience touring, meeting with fans, you know, I believe that live will be more and more important. So that you have to be really great live Physical things like vinyl. Yes, physical stuff. Because honestly, I don't care now about any streamings. Really?
It's just like if more than 40 % I think music today now uploaded on on on streaming is made by AI so so I don't see point you know how can I how can I win there's no way to win I mean come on let's be like like this today is 40 % like in two months there will be 60 I'm pretty sure and they just pretend to say that they do something they're gonna do something with it I mean nobody's interested in in in changing this except for artists
And I believe, and I still believe in human beings, like at end there's a normal person and he or she just wants to listen to music. You know what I mean? And I still believe that they're gonna be ⁓ really overwhelmed and there was too much of all of that and somehow they say, you know, let's go for a walk. I don't know. And they're gonna grab a guitar.
This is what I believe is gonna happen. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I believe it's gonna happen, but just now is this wow wow factor. I don't know how is it in the US, but for example, the European Union is paying a lot of money to the ⁓ companies and the public institutions to help them learn AI. You know what I mean? It's just like extremely big funding to give people tools.
Scott Catey (50:50)
They're not going to grab their AI machine, right? They're going to take something real with them.
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (51:18)
And then what? So you give them tools and then what's going to happen? Nobody will need these people again. Like, like, let's be clear. This is what's going to happen. So, ⁓ I believe that music really can bring, ⁓ people to, to the moment where everything has started, you know, I'm a huge fan of Led Zeppelin and, and I remember the moment like, ⁓ like, ⁓
Scott Catey (51:27)
Yep.
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (51:47)
in this movie about Led Zeppelin that Jimmy Page said that the first concert in London was like big big mistake nobody really wanted to hear them like people said it's still loud it's too much and so on then they went on tour in the US and everybody loves them ⁓ so I believe more or less it's gonna happen with immersive like that now everybody says no no it's too much nobody needs it ⁓ no no no
I believe that once they taste it, they're gonna love it. you know, it's always the process.
Scott Catey (52:23)
and getting a little bit over the risk, right? The risk of, I want to try something new? And for distributors and labels and all that to take the risk of investing in that.
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (52:33)
But the problem is that they don't take even the risk of talent development at this moment. So I believe that I'm not looking for any funding in this sector. I believe that more ⁓ all this IT or hard business might be more interesting in immersive.
Scott Catey (52:39)
Right.
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (53:00)
Because, you know, I always say it's not about music. It's about everybody that can get something from the concert that you play because it's not only about musicians and it's hotels, ⁓ transport, ⁓ fashion. Everybody gets benefits from a live show.
So I believe we need to find someone who really has a big interest in new technologies because it can build his business and it's going to be ethical enough. I still believe that people can be good and a business can be ethical. Anyway, believe we need to... You know what I mean? It's just like I want to be a dreamer like this. ⁓
Scott Catey (53:49)
It's a good video though.
Karo Glazer & Mike Rosicki (53:55)
Most of the things that we did as a production company was that we invested our money or we found great partners and I believe that when you give them great benefits they are really open, but you need to really present it differently than the whole music business does it. Let's not sell another American dream, you know what I mean? Like if you're gonna go to US and make a career, come on! This is what very often here...
In the Europe people think when you talk about music business, show business, Hollywood, yes, Grammy, know, just, come on. It's just, just, just let's focus on real, what you can do. Yeah.
Scott Catey (54:43)
That wraps up part one of my conversation with Karo Glazer and Michal Rosicki. We'll be back next week with part two focused on working in Abbey Road, women in music, international collaboration, navigating the music industry, and much more. It's a rich and expansive conversation, and I hope we'll see you here. For now, though, we'll leave you with "Colorful Carousels," written by the Polish composer Edward Cherny, and one of my favorites from Karo. Karo
has loads of talent, and incredible range, and you can see all of that on display in this video. It's linked in the show notes too, but I'm really happy to have this chance to show it to you here. Karo, Mike, and I will be back next week with part two of this conversation on The Sum of All Wisdom
Scott Catey (58:14)
Thank you for turning us on. If this conversation resonated with you, please consider sharing it with others. If it provoked you, please let us know that too. You can comment or DM or email me with all your thoughts. Links to all the goodness that Karo and Mike and Red producers on offer is in the show notes, along with information and links on some of the other stuff we talked about. The Sum of All Wisdom is written, produced, and hosted by yours truly, Dr. Scott Cady, and released by Ravenna Studios.
Thanks for checking us out.