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The Thin Veil is a show for anyone looking to deepen their understanding of Palestine—and what Palestine can reveal about the systems shaping our world. Hosted by musician/activist and anti-Zionist Jew Ezra Lipp, who was raised in a Zionist ecosystem and is now, as always, on a continuing journey of learning and unlearning.
Through long-form conversations with historians, journalists, artists, activists, and people with lived experience, the show explores Palestine not in isolation, but as a window into questions of power, history, identity, media, ideology, resistance, and the stories we inherit about the world around us.
[00:00:00] Coming up on The Thin Veil
[00:00:01] Rolla: When my people are being murdered and genocided on live TV, every day I think, what do I have a right or not right to do? And what I have a right to do isto feel, devastation, is to feel pain, futility sometimes, sure,
[00:00:19] rage, sadness, yes, I have the right to do that. What I don't have a right to do is stop. My people in Gaza and in Palestine, They can literally say, "I give up. I'm done. Emotionally, I'm done." They can say it. I can't say it, and I'm not about to say it.
[00:00:35] Because I'm here breathing air that's not infected with tons of bomb waste. I'm here drinking water that's not infested with rats and sewage. I'm here eating food, I have a roof over my head that's not about to crumble and crush me and my siblings.
[00:00:51] So, what right do I have? I don't. So I have to find a way.
[00:00:55]
[00:00:55]
[00:01:00] Well, hello, and welcome back to The Thin Veil. I am your host, Ezra Lipp. I'm so happy to be here. The Thin Veil is a show where we lift the veil on Palestine. It is based in my own experience as a, Jewish person growing up in a Zionist ecosystem, and only much later in life did I come to terms with the, indoctrination that I grew up in.
[00:01:26] Thank you for listening. If you're a first-time listener, welcome. Thank you for tuning in.
[00:01:31] I'd appreciate it if you're finding value in these shows to, leave a five-star rating and review wherever you are listening to this, on any of the podcast platforms.
[00:01:39] If it's on YouTube, please like the video and hit subscribe and hit that notification bell so you never miss an episode,for this episode, I would like to talk about Connecting Gaza, which is a, volunteer-organized mutual aid network organizing relief for people enduring genocide in Gaza, [00:02:00] providing not only financial and material support, but also a lifeline in terms of, chatting with these families on the ground in Gaza through WhatsApp groups, communicating.
[00:02:12] This is a group that I'm a part of. and if you want to have a direct communication and be able to support families in Palestine, it is a great place to get involved. Or you could just make a one-time or recurring donation because it is desperately needed at this time. See connectinggaza.org in the show notes.
[00:02:33] if you'd like to support The Thin Veil Show and my work, we have a monthly Patreon. We're gonna be starting to offer more bonus content soon for the Patreon page, /thethinveilpod. So check that out. Or if you just wanna make a one-time donation tip, you can find a platform to do that in the notes on Ko-fi.
[00:02:53] we have an extraordinary guest today.
[00:02:55] I'm very honored and excited that, we were graced with her [00:03:00] presence. this is a Palestinian American filmmaker, podcaster, writer, satirist, and storyteller.
[00:03:06] And of course, I'm talking about the one and only Rolla Sellbak. in this conversation, we talk a little bit about her film career, including her, upcoming, Palestinian horror film she is making, the first of its kind,but this conversation is about much more. Rola shows how growing up Palestinian shaped her understanding of justice, the moment she began questioning dominant Western narratives, and why she believes authentic storytelling will always outlast propaganda. We talk about her queer identity and how it relates to being Arab and Muslim among many other things
[00:03:42] Rola has an incredible heart. She has done incredible advocacy,speaking out about Palestine with such warmth with such compassion and such generosity and such grace. and what I admire about her is she's able to seamlessly mix [00:04:00] deep empathy with also just insanely funny humor and satire, which is kind of how I like to roll myself.
[00:04:08] and, yeah, she's truly a gem.
[00:04:11] Without further ado, please enjoy this wonderful conversation with the one and only Rolla Selbak
[00:04:19] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil:
[00:04:19] so part of the idea for this show, The Thin Veil, it's based on my own process of a veil lifting of understanding Palestine that was hidden, that was obscured for me most of my life. obviously I'm coming from a, Jewish background, growing up in a Zionist ecosystem, so very different than being Palestinian. But I'm wondering, if you had a moment, earlier in your life where you felt like you had some sort of veil lifting of your understanding of perhaps what it meant to be Palestinian and how that might have been different, from other people
[00:04:57] Rolla: First of all, thank you. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. [00:05:00] and I want to say before I tell my story, I think specifically people who've grown up, like you mentioned, in the Zionist ecosystem, who were indoctrinated, who were, you know, told things that, were not true, the amount of work required to your point, to get that veil lifted is insurmountable,
[00:05:17] It is something I am in awe of, anyone that I meet who has done the work and who has really emerged, from it. So I just wanted to say, I really, really commend you, for that, truly. Because I, I think about this a lot, actually, to go back to your question. I think about what if I wasn't born, Palestinian?
[00:05:36] What if my parents weren't Palestinian? What if my, ancestors weren't refugees? Like, what would happen? What if my aunt wasn't martyred in refugee camps? Like, what if I did grow up in a Zionist household? Or even, not even, you know, a indoctrinated Zionist, but what if I just grew up in a Western kind of mentality where, Palestinians were villainized, where the story of like, land for a people without a land.
[00:05:57] Like, what if I ate all that up? What, [00:06:00] what would happen to me? What would have happened to my soul? So I think about that a lot, and I'm very thankful that I didn't, because I see the amount of work that you and people like you have to do, and I really commend you for it.
[00:06:13] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Thank you for saying that. and,I do really appreciate it. At the same time, apologize on behalf of my people for all the
[00:06:19] Rolla: No. no, of course. I understand. I understand
[00:06:22] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil:
[00:06:22] Rolla: so it's interesting 'cause of my story, both my parents Palestinian. My dad's side, is from Shefa-'Amir, which is next to Haifa. My mom's side is from Jerusalem, itself. and so growing up, my dad specifically wanted to make sure that we understood the history.
[00:06:37] And so, You know, we're like, 12, 13, 14, and he'd print out, from whatever, the encyclopedia. He'd, like, go to Kinko's. he'd literally print out the Balfour Declaration, the Sykes-Picot Agreement. And when you're, like, 12 and 13, you're like, "What?"
[00:06:51] You know what I mean? You barely wanna pay attention to anything anyway. you know, you just wanna play. You just wanna, you know, be with your friends. and you're sitting here reading, the [00:07:00] Balfour Declaration, and Sykes-Picot Agreement, and, like, the French, and the British, and the this, and the that.
[00:07:04] and so it's very interesting because growing up, we always had a sense of justice, not just for Palestine. but I remember when we came to the US, and when I found out, And I say I found out because school really didn't well, the school that I went to, I guess, public school in, Oregon, about the history of the Indigenous, Americans that were in the US, what happened to them, how they got slaughtered, killed, genocided.
[00:07:26] and so we grew up very, very much, understanding the plight, of injustice. Obviously, slavery in America as well, centuries and centuries of chattel slavery. so it wasn't that I didn't understand injustice or didn't empathize, but when it came to Palestine, because my dad, everyone might think, you know, oh, my dad's exaggerating, or my dad's just on and on about it, So I really thought, I swear, by the time I was in my maybe late teens, early 20s, I of course knew the [00:08:00] technicalities of each agreement. the Oslo Accords. I knew all these technicalities, but I was still thinking that- no, maybe my dad or my mom, my uncles, maybe they're just exaggerating.
[00:08:12] I'm like, surely, surely there's something they're missing, and now that I'm here in the West, maybe I can explore.
[00:08:20] Maybe we can, find peace. You know, that coexist bumper sign was all over the place. I'm like, oh, we can all get along type of thing. and then I think maybe it was the first Gaza invasion, um, of the many invasions. I actually forget which was the exact moment, but then I realized not only was my dad and my mom and my uncles not exaggerating, but they had hid a lot of the atrocities from me.
[00:08:47] A lot. Because they didn't want to traumatize me into,understanding the cause. they came at it from a technical point of view because they're thinking, "This is truth. This is documented. Even if you [00:09:00] think I'm exaggerating about what they did to mothers, and the babies in mothers' stomachs," which we now see in Gaza, of course.
[00:09:06] even if you thought I was exaggerating about the Nakba, see here the document about how, the land was taken and da, da, da. So yeah. I really found that they shielded me from a lot of the gory, kind of traumatic details of the Nakba, but focused more on the technicalities.
[00:09:23] And so I, really appreciate it because now I feel very, very well-versed in the technicalities and I feel like I wasn't indoctrinated because of trauma, because of emotional manipulation, because of any of the stuff. it's just a very interesting because I think a lot of people assume that, I grew up me as Rula as like, oh, always Palestine, Palestine, injustice, injustice.
[00:09:46] But in fact, I actually also had to kind offeel like, "Uh, are you sure? Are you sure, Baba?" Like, "You sure that... Are you sure, Baba?" And my point is, I also pushed back. I [00:10:00] also tried to explore myself. I also am like, "This can't possibly be. This is such an injustice. How could everyone let this happen, especially after the Holocaust?"
[00:10:10] I'm like, "There's no way. After what they went through in the Holocaust, there's no way." I just literally couldn't believe it, thought for sure there was something that my dad's generation was missing, and it turns out it was even worse than they told me.
[00:10:25] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: how old approximately were you when this happened? And then did that shift your sense of identity and how you related with the world once you came to this understanding of how bad things actually were?
[00:10:36] Rolla: I don't remember the exact moment. I, I know I was in my early 20s, something like that. don't remember if it was one of the Gaza invasions.
[00:10:44] around the blockade time.
[00:10:46] but then after that, I think what really was scary to me, also including 9/11, by the way. I think 9/11 really impacted me because we were living here in the US at the time, and I saw [00:11:00] what happened, and obviously it was, a moment for the whole world. Like, we were all in shock, right?
[00:11:04] But I remember soon after that the media, machine starting, and Bush and, Cheney and Colin Powell and all of them, like, doing this whole media circus about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and da, da, da. And thatwas the first time when I myself started documenting for me because I'm like, "What they're saying on TV is not true."
[00:11:30] Like, what are they doing?
[00:11:32] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
[00:11:33] Rolla: and so that was the first time where I'm like, dude, no, I... For my own sanity. I felt gaslit all the time. I'm like, "This isn't true. Why are we talking about Iraq when you're talking about Afghanistan and Saudi? What are you... Al-Qaeda? Like, what..." And so that was the first time where I'm like, dude, the West is...
[00:11:51] There's something going on here I always like, you know, especially when we grew up in the Middle East, like CNN for us was like wow, you know, the harbinger of truth. And when I [00:12:00] came into the West and when 9/11 happened, I'm like, there's something sinister happening here.
[00:12:05] There's something very insidious. This isn't about getting it wrong. This is about intentionally misleading people
[00:12:12] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: grew up in the UAE, right? For a lot of your
[00:12:16] Rolla: Correct.
[00:12:16] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: high school. So,
[00:12:17] Rolla: Correct
[00:12:18] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: saying that CNN at that time was viewed as a harbinger of truth in
[00:12:22] Rolla: Yes.
[00:12:23] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Wow.
[00:12:24] Rolla: Yes. Yes, it was.
[00:12:25] We really drank the Kool-Aid, to be honest with you
[00:12:29] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: so do you feel like when you started understanding this on a deeper level, how did it change you? Did it change how you maybe related to, what you wanted to do with filmmaking? Did it change your relationships with other people that, didn't see things the way you did?
[00:12:44] Rolla: I think the number one thing it changed was me questioning everything. That's where I started questioning, asking, digging, knowing what. This is connected to that, that's connected to that, how? Why? and so with that obviously comes storytelling. Certainly in [00:13:00] my filmmaking, what I really wanted to do was try to bridge the gap between people who were curious about people or stories or cultures that they didn't know and to really be that first foray into like, "Hey, you don't know about, this story about X, Y, Z, about...
[00:13:18] You want to know more? Here's a story." So that's really where I started. I always say that my films, push the envelope but unite audiences at the same time. The point was to unite audiences, The point isn't to preach to the choir, but the point isn't also to like, really be so, on the fringes of a boundary that no one would listen.
[00:13:41] I thought really the way through was to unite audiences around central themes, central values, central humanities that we all share really at the end of the day. So that really was, what I've been doing for a very long time. And I think with storytelling now what we're seeing, [00:14:00] especially, the, the quote, quote, "battle for like social media", I think it was way more, profound.
[00:14:07] Storytelling is way more of a profound and, powerful tool than I ever thought, to be honest with you. and you see that because you see billionaires literally throwing their money away trying to buy, TikTok, trying to buy CNN, funny enough, trying to buy Paramount. They're trying to buy their way into this battlefield of narratives, and what they don't understand is what storytellers like me understand, is you can't buy your way to convincing people of anything.
[00:14:38] You have to tell a story, and you have to tell a story that really rings true. And for a story to ring true, it has to be true in some way, and that's what they don't understand, and that's why Hasbara has been such a failure because when you put Hasbara up against truth-telling, like actual truth-telling, it just evaporates.
[00:14:59] it's a [00:15:00] mirage. So it doesn't work and it fails immediately. It's like dead on arrival
[00:15:05] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I guess where I would push back a little just, is has Hasbara been a failure? Because, I think it is failing. I think it's getting harder and harder to maintain. But for so many years, it's actually been, i-if I look at the community of which I was raised, it's been incredibly devastatingly effective. and I know that's changing, but, it's real tragic in a way how much those narratives been successful at the expense of Palestinian lives and suffering and,
[00:15:37] Rolla: certainly. I, I think what I was trying to say is that all we needed to do was be able to tell our own story and be able to tell it to the world. And I think for the longest time, because of gatekeepers, studio gatekeepers, TV, film, Hollywood, for the longest time we didn't have an ability to tell our story.
[00:15:55] So Hasbara was so effective. and by the way, I have a question to [00:16:00] ask you about Hasbara, outward public Hasbara versus Hasbara, within the insular community. I think those are two different things, and those are very different methods that they have to use, right?
[00:16:11] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Hmm.
[00:16:11] Rolla: and I wanna ask you about it. Either way, let's talk about the Hasbara to the public, right? Where you're trying to, convince the general public of your story, right? I think for the longest time, because of gatekeeping in Hollywood, they had a complete monopoly on their narrative, and we did have a story to tell, but we didn't have the platform to.
[00:16:30] So that's why Hasbara was so effective. It wasn't 'cause the story was so convincing, it was 'cause th-we- they weren't allowed to hear anything else.
[00:16:38] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah, right, that makes perfect sense.
[00:16:40] Rolla: Exactly. And so now with social media, that's what I'm saying. It really ended up being the kind of equalizer. It's like, okay, here's the battle of the narratives. Now you get to hear both of them equally. What do you think? And that's why Hasbara just turned into vapor, because it never really had anything to stand on
[00:16:58] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And to your point, [00:17:00] now they are spending billions of dollars on those same social media platforms, competing with people like yourself and me and millions of others that are just wanting to speak the truth. what is your question, though? I would love to know
[00:17:13] Rolla: I want to because you, grew up in a Zionist indoctrinated environment, is there or was there a difference between... Is there even a different term between the talking points of Hasbara that are used to convince the public or tell the public versus Hasbara used in order to maintain that kind of insular, ideology maybe?
[00:17:39] 'cause I'm thinking about cults, right? And I'm thinking about there's an outward kind of PR machine for a cult to be like, "No, we're not a cult." Like Scientology for instance, right? But inwardly there's a different narrative that they have to use to keep the people of that ideology engaged and involved and not asking questions.
[00:17:57] So my question to you is did you feel that there [00:18:00] was a difference between Hasbara public versus Hasbara inside? and if so, is there a different word for it? Like I'm so, so curious
[00:18:08] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. I definitely didn't know the word hazbara until a couple years ago, for one. I'm not sure if this exactly answers your question, but I'll, I'll just speak to what comes to mind and feel free to redirect me or clarify as, you need. So I, I went to a Jewish day school, so dual curriculum, so Like half the day is Judaic studies, whatever that means, and half is regular studies. and then I went to a Jewish Zionist summer camp every year. my mom taught at the school. She also worked at of the camps I went to. And then I went to a full high school semester on an Israel trip, my sophomore year high school. and as well as synagogue and all that. So it was pretty Jewish and Zionist, although the Zionism is built in to the Judaism.
[00:18:51] Like right now I'm able to see clearly the difference, the distinction. But at the time it is just, it is one thing. I always say it's, it's very [00:19:00] hard to put myself back in the mindset of where I was before October 7th when I really started
[00:19:05] Rolla: examining
[00:19:06] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: this closely. and I think in some ways if somebody had asked me what is Palestine before October 7th, I might have said, "Oh, that's what Israel used to be called." Like I didn't have a sense that there was a Palestinian people even, but as far as you know, understanding like what was happening, what was told to me was that there are suicide bombers because, they are just these crazy, anti-Semitic, extremist Islamic terrorists that want to kill Jews, not because understanding any sort of national resistance oryou know, I didn't understand anything about the occupation.
[00:19:46] But it was just like if they killed Jews in suicide bombs, they would be rewarded by going to an eternal afterlife with 70 virgins.
[00:19:55] Rolla: Got it. I see
[00:19:56] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: by the time I was an adult, it wasn't like I [00:20:00] ever would've identified as a Zionist. I just wanna say this to you to make a distinction. I never was rah-rah Israel or anything, but it was just that the Hasbara had worked enough for me to, feel like, I'm a progressive person, I care about racial justice, I care about climate change, I hate Trump, I about social welfare which were all things that came from my upbringing of Jew-- Social justice was, like, a big part of my family and my upbringing.
[00:20:26] when it came to Israel-Palestine, it was just like, oh, that just seems a little... It was just, the Hasbara had just done enough for me to be like, "Ah, that seems kinda weird and complicated. I'm just not gonna think about that." and I didn't understand how it really related to me or my life or the effects on, how it relates to imperialism and colonialism and capitalism and the systems of oppression. does that answer part of your
[00:20:52] Rolla: Yeah. No, totally. Actually, it's interesting because it turns out to be the same PR, right? I don't know why I teared up, but when you talk about the [00:21:00] Zionist summer camps and this, like, I don't know what was in the summer camps.
[00:21:04] I do know some of the summer camps, and how far they go with, literally trying to, like, recreate, Saf Al- like Kristallnacht in the night and, like, you know, try to scare and traumatize children and emotionally manipulate them so that they're, stuck in this ideology for as long as possible.
[00:21:18] I don't know. I just feel so sad. I feel deeply that,was an injustice done, and that continues to be done to children, to be traumatized and indoctrinated into something, I don't know, that turns them into someone who is for social justice for everything except
[00:21:37] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: for one thing.
[00:21:38] Yeah, it is really sad. It's really insidious. I'll say another thing, though, which is, like, a fascinating part of it, I'm not sure how true this is everyone, especially today. But, I'm quite sure, like it is not like there's these adults, having these programs at the summer camp celebrating Israeli Independence Day, obscuring any reality about the [00:22:00] Nakba. Like it is not like they are like, "Oh, let's cover up this thing, and let's weaponize Holocaust trauma in order to create this intense Israeli nationalism."
[00:22:10] Like It is the story they grew up with too. So I don't know if I could say the same thing about Jonathan Greenblatt or, these real fascist people. But it's not like my mother or other people doing these programs had an idea of the truth and they were trying to obscure it.
[00:22:29] was just the water that we all swam in, and they were just repeating narratives that they grew up in. and many of them are still swimming in that water, and it is really sad.
[00:22:39] Rolla:
[00:22:39] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: speaking on that, one thing I really admire about you that, I think is very courageous and honestly something that I would say goes above and beyond, is you really make an effort to reach out to the Jewish community in your messaging, in a way that I think is just [00:23:00] incredibly generous A-and I guess I'm trying to articulate that it is like, if you chose to never do that, I wouldn't think anything of it.
[00:23:07] you have no debt to our people. Your people have no debt to our
[00:23:10] Rolla: Sure.
[00:23:11] ... First of all, thank you for saying that. And thank you for recognizing it because I really do. I really do try very hard. And I think the first reason I do it, to be honest with you, is the last thing I want is for the Zionists to take our humanity. I really don't.
[00:23:28] they are trying to take everything. They're trying to take our hope. They're trying to take our homes, our livelihoods, our history. They're trying to erase everything. And I also think what they're trying to do with publicizing all their war crimes in such an egregious way is I think they're also trying to get us so enraged, that all we can see, is ourselves and in the wake of us trying to get our justice, maybe hurting others.
[00:23:59] so I [00:24:00] never want them to take our humanity ever. Ever. That's one thing they will not take because that's something they lost a long time ago when someone tried to take their humanity.
[00:24:09] and the other thing is that, it is really disgusting and insidious how Zionist Jewish institutions try so hard to use Judaism as a human shield.
[00:24:20] It's very obvious.
[00:24:22] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: it's obvious. There's a reason why there's a Star of David on a fascist flag.
[00:24:27] Yeah
[00:24:28] Rolla: disgusting. it's just so obvious. And by the way, I want to say something. I have no fear of being called, quote, "antisemitic." I have no fear because I know I'm not.
[00:24:39] And I know that anyone who dares call me that is trying to either deflect, is trying to, again, take away the humanity of, you know, trying to find justice for the Palestinian cause. I have no fear of it. So you'll never hear me say, "Oh, no, no, no, but I'm not antisemitic." That's ridiculous. I will never do that because that's not
[00:24:58] I know I'm not. [00:25:00] You know I'm not. You, the person who's trying to, deflect any of my arguments. so yeah.
[00:25:05] that's the reason why I really wanna make sure that I always do reach out to the Jewish community
[00:25:11] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: you've been in,in Hollywood. Uh, you're a filmmaker. infamously, there's many Zionists in Hollywood. and I know you've had professional fallout. You lost your, role in the the Creative Artists Agency, talent agency. but am wondering, on a personal level, and specifically, or before, but specifically after October 7th, have you had to conversations with, adamant Zionists there
[00:25:36] And what have those been like, if so?
[00:25:40] Rolla: I haven't had conversations with Zionists other than being fired from CAA.
[00:25:45] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay. Okay
[00:25:47] Rolla: one. But I will say one thing. I say this a lot, but,anytime I'm asked, "Hey, do you have any regrets about, being fired from the agency?"
[00:25:57] And the only regret is that I didn't fire them first. I didn't fire [00:26:00] my agents first. I really do truly believe that. Because I knew it was coming. you know, you're already getting emails from CAA, right? You know, "I stand with Israel," and like town hall this, town hall that. Meanwhile, the genocide was raging on, not a peep about that.
[00:26:15] and I knew. I knew the more I spoke up, the more at risk that I was gonna get fired, and I was waiting for it to happen. But I really do regret. I should have dropped them first. I should have said, can't be represented by this talent agency anymore.
[00:26:31] You don't see me. You don't see my humanity. You brought me on as a token, and now I don't feel like even a human being in your eyes." so that's my only regret but the other thing I wanna say is that it was a big deal for me.
[00:26:43] I know that I, seem like I'm very kind of bombastic sometimes online, and I, can be very, sarcastic and sardonic and, flippant and, you know, kinda laughing in the face of power, kinda punching up.
[00:26:55] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Which
[00:26:56] Rolla: I do that a lot. Thank you. Thank you very much. but the truth is that [00:27:00] it, did mean a lot for me to finally, quote, "arrive in Hollywood."
[00:27:04] That was my dream when I grew up in the UAE. My dream was to become a filmmaker. My dream was to work in TV. you know, when I got my first check from Disney, right? with literally the Disney logo, right? The checks come with the Disney logo on it. again, growing up, that was, like, the holy grail of, filmmaking.
[00:27:21] Like, oh, I finally... You know, it's not just for Scorsese and Spielberg and this and that, you know? I could do it, too. so it did really mean a lot to me. It meant a lot that I, achieved the pinnacle of what I thought my dream was. it meant a lot. So to your point about the veil, the veil kind of really melting in front of me and for me to see really who was the wizard behind the curtain, or sorry, what was the mechanics of the wizard behind the curtain, it was devastating to me.
[00:27:51] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And so not only did I get dropped by an agency, which whatever, good riddance, I had to really let go of a dream that I had. [00:28:00] and more specifically, I had to let go that that dream was a complete mirage of a nightmare.
[00:28:07] and I've heard you say that been incredibly freeing for you when you realize that dream is a nightmare, and then you realize you can do your own dream, and you don't need that dream, that that's the wrong dream, I mean,that comes with great liberation to tell
[00:28:22] Rolla: Perfect word. Liberation, perfect word. I definitely do feel liberated, and I feel free. I can put my head on the pillow at night. I can come up with my own stories, like especially with social media. I script everything, edit everything, do everything, music everything. I don't need to depend on anyone else who I don't trust.
[00:28:41] and now I'm going back to my independent filmmaking roots. and I love it. I think the only thing that, you know, as with any artist, trying to make it nowadays, you do get disconnected from that kind of funding machine. but in what world would I ever want that type of funding, like where the money came from?
[00:28:59] I [00:29:00] don't want that anywhere near me. so it, it's just a different uphill battle, but hamdullah, it's a liberated one to your point
[00:29:06] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Would you like to speak about your work you're doing with The Visitor? it sounds like an incredible film. I'm excited for it. If you wanna tell us what it's about.
[00:29:15] Rolla: Happy to. it's the first, uh, Palestinian horror film. and for horror fans, if you watch the movie Get Out, which is one of my favorite films...
[00:29:23] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I love that.
[00:29:24] Rolla: yeah, me too.
[00:29:25] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I don't watch horror films, but I loved Get Out, it's so much more than a horror film.
[00:29:29] Rolla: Exactly. Exactly. And so I call The Visitor, I call this movie, the Palestinian Get Out. the whole synopsis is that there's a young man, Karim, he lives with his family in Jerusalem, and he's trying to save his family from this entity that has descended upon his town, and that is erasing the memories of people he loves.
[00:29:48] And so, you know, the whole ethos of the film is that life under an occupation is scarier than the monsters in our folktales. And so it's really meant to be this whole idea of, the horror of [00:30:00] being erased. What if I don't know who I am anymore
[00:30:03] but it really is meant to be thrilling.
[00:30:05] You know, when you hear, "Oh, it's a Palestinian horror film," some folks might think that it's some sort of, egregious trauma porn of some sort or trying to, you know, be gratuitous, in its gore. It's nothing like that.
[00:30:16] It's more of a psychological horror. and it's also really entrenched in, like, our Palestinian folktales that really go back even pre-Islamic, pre-Christian times. Like, it's really these kind of ancient stories that have been, brought along year after year or century after century.
[00:30:31] And so it's really, really rooted in beautiful, Palestinian folklore that we've never even seen on screen before,
[00:30:38] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I'm excited for that. Just curious, is there any, comic relief in it, or is it all pretty...
[00:30:42] Rolla: Definitely.
[00:30:43] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay,
[00:30:44] Rolla: Yeah,
[00:30:44] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: that's
[00:30:44] Rolla: definitely.
[00:30:45] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I just
[00:30:46] Rolla: yeah.
[00:30:47] Can I just shift for a minute and ask you about, I've heard you describe it as, like, a triple minority or maybe even quadruple minority if you count you're a woman, you're Palestinian, you're a Muslim, and [00:31:00] you're queer. and I wanted to ask you, because, I actually have a lot of questions about, what it means to be queer, as a Muslim, as a Palestinian.
[00:31:08] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: what it means to be queer in those communities and how it might differ from the dominant narratives around it,
[00:31:15] Rolla: By the way, my dad's side of the family is Christian, and my mom's side of the family is Muslim, and I think that's important to call out because I think that's also a beautiful part of being Palestinian.
[00:31:24] and also speaking of erasure, there's a lot of erasure of Palestinian, Christians. but it is a beautiful... I do love calling it out because I literally grew up with both. I grew up with, like, going to cousins' communions, and I grew up, celebrating Ramadan. I grew up, with Christmas trees, and then I also grew up, with Eid.
[00:31:42] So it, it's-
[00:31:44] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: if I mischaracterized. Do you identify as one of, one or the other?
[00:31:47] Rolla: I do identify as Muslim, I think it's important, meaning, like, in my heart when I say prayers, you know, Islam is the most religion that I have delved into, that I know the verses of, I [00:32:00] know, the philosophies of, that I myself, connect with the most. But it is important for me to call out that my dad's side of the family is Christian just to show and just to make sure audiences understand what I grew up with, how I grew up, right?
[00:32:15] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Understood. Yeah
[00:32:17] Rolla: I think in general, being gay is not easy certainly. and Ithink that when I did come out, it was difficult for people in my family certainly, but I did understand.
[00:32:30] and it wasn't easy. It wasn't an easy journey at all. I actually never talked about this, but I think there's something to it where when you're in the Middle East, there are beautiful, beautiful gay communities all over the Middle East, by the way, but they tend to be blended. They tend to be live let live. don't ask, don't tell type of a thing. It's like, yeah, you can have your house parties, you can do whatever, but then now when you're raising flags and you are, [00:33:00] outwardly trying to identify as a subculture, now there's a problem here, right?
[00:33:04]
[00:33:05] Rolla: Because America and the West in general had made such headway when it came to queer identity and queer rights, right? starting with Stonewall and everything else after that. I think then there ended up being a vocabulary, there ended up being an identity, which was important in order for, queer people, trans people to get any semblance of rights, if there's any left, uh, in the US.
[00:33:31] But I think that because what the West had been doing to the Middle East for so long as far as colonization, as far as literally pillaging resources, as far as genociding, killing, cutting up land, you know, like a pizza pie, you take this land, I take this land, you know, the French, the British, the Americans.
[00:33:51] I think because of that, I've never said this out loud,so I'm just kinda working through this. I think there was a mistrust of [00:34:00] the gay movement, not necessarily just gay people. Okay? And I think a lot of the legislation, as far as I understand, that came through, whether it was Africa or West Asia, came through the British, right?
[00:34:13] Where maybe centuries before maybe homosexuality wasn't criminalized. It doesn't mean it wasn't looked down upon, but it does mean there weren't criminal laws against it, and then the British brought that to a lot of places in Africa and a lot of places in West Asia.So with the gay movement that arose in America specifically, 'cause that was what led the way worldwide, I think there was a mistrust.
[00:34:34] I think there was a mistrust of Western queer culture. I think there was a mistrust of Western queer vernacular, vocabulary. and so someone like me, for instance, funny enough, when I came out as gay, I think a big part of what I would hear is what, are you American now?
[00:34:54] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Hmm.
[00:34:54] Rolla: What, are you Americanized now? So of course there was also like, it's unnatural, it's whatever. But [00:35:00] another part of it was like, are you Americanized now? And so I think there was this distrust. It's like, are you part of them, are you part of us?
[00:35:07] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: so just to make sure I, I understand what you're saying, you're talking about a general mistrust of, LGBTQ culture in the Arab world because it came from the
[00:35:18] Rolla: I think so
[00:35:19] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: that was generally mistrusted.
[00:35:21] Rolla: I think so. I,
[00:35:22] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: interesting.
[00:35:23] Rolla: it, that's my theory.
[00:35:24] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay.
[00:35:25] Rolla: my theory because of what I was hearing, how I was being treated. and so this comes to the Palestinian movement and the beauty of it, the Palestinian freedom movement. Because what I've seen the past few years, and certainly things have been changing, along the years certainly, yeah, alhamdulillah for all of it, right?
[00:35:43] we all try to be better, our communities try to be better. So, things were improving anyway. But I think with the movement for Palestinian freedom, what people back home saw was just how fierce the queer community, the trans community, [00:36:00] the gay community was and is in defense of Palestinian rights.
[00:36:06] And I think that really cracked open. You'll see people back home say, my neighbor won't even go out and talk about Falestine," but you'll see, this white trans person on the front lines getting arrested in New York with a keffiyeh. Oh, I can't hate on that person. I may not understand that person.
[00:36:29] I may not know what their experience is, But I know that they are a part of me.
[00:36:35] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: recognizing the solidarity of oppressed people.
[00:36:39] Rolla: Yes, exactly.
[00:36:40] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: making that connection
[00:36:42] Rolla: Exactly. and even more than making that connection, they're like, "Someone like Rula is a part of us. Yes, we may not understand her. We may not have the same experience, but she is part of us because look," "She's defending us.
[00:36:56] She's losing her job. She's doing everything." And [00:37:00] so I do think that there is part of that, that mistrust, of like, "Wait, is this gay thing a Western thing? Like, what is this?" And like realizing "Oh my God, no." we also made an injustice towards someone who was part of our community all along
[00:37:15] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I know no communities are monoliths, but is there a distinct, Palestinian gay community that differs from gay communities you might find in LA or, can you
[00:37:26] Rolla: I wouldn't say, yeah, I wouldn't say Palestinian specifically. I'd say Swana for sure.
[00:37:30] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay
[00:37:31] for sure, and maybe Southwest
[00:37:33] Rolla: just Southwest Asian, maybe even, yeah, North Africa exactly, even Southeast Asian. and yes, it does differ. It absolutely does differ.
[00:37:40] I feel safer there. I feel more welcome. I swear to God, dude, Ezra, like I, By the way, is your name Ezra or Ezra? Ezra? Ezra, perfect.
[00:37:50] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. But I love how that was beautiful how you said it. you could say it like that. I've never heard it sound so nice.
[00:37:58] Rolla: I have never... I've been [00:38:00] in a lot of spaces. Obviously, the other thing about me is I'm white-passing, which I'm very, um... Again, I've never really said this out loud. I'm very self-conscious about, I know I very much recognize the privilege of looking like I do, in spaces that I am in, very much. but I'm also very self-conscious because I do look like the colonizer.
[00:38:19] And it really, it fucks with my head. it really bothers me. It bothers me that I wake up and I have this skin. It actually does, and I know it might sound very, um, weird is the wrong word. I don't know what else to say. Maybe. Maybe, especially because of all the anti-b- Blackness that's, a virus around the world.
[00:38:37] It's disgusting. Because I wake up and I look at the colonizer skin It does, it does fuck with me. It does mess with me. But because of that, I do end up in spaces where people feel they can tell me things because they don't think I'm Arabi, they don't think I'm Falastini, they don't think I'm Muslim, and so I do end up hearing a lot of disgusting things.
[00:38:59] and I've never [00:39:00] felt so othered as I have in queer white spaces. I remember once I was at a, just a house, yeahni, gathering. Normal. and the person found out that I was Falastini and that I grew up in the UAE. And we were talking about something, and it was trivia, and, like, the answer was Footloose or something like that.
[00:39:18] And then this white lady, white lesbian lady, is like, "Oh, you know about Footloose?" I said, "Yeah." I watch movies. I'm a filmmaker.
[00:39:27] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
[00:39:28] Rolla: They're like, "Can you even dance in the Middle East? Can you even... Like, is dancing allowed?" And I felt like she wasn't asking me even in a curious way. I think it was, like, a disparaging way.
[00:39:40] Like, you grew up in a backwards kinda culture.
[00:39:44] So to answer your initial question, yes, I feel way more comfortable in SWANA spaces, SWANA queer spaces. I feel like I'm home. I feel like they understand. I feel like there's even more joy.
[00:39:57] Because there's so much trauma [00:40:00] surrounding us, there's more joy when we get together, 'cause our joy is resistance.
[00:40:03] and I just, I don't know, I just feel safer, and I feel more comfortable, and I feel more seen, and I don't need to explain, and the food's better, and the music's better. I don't know, man. anyone's invited to our space, but I'm not about to go to predominantly white space and feel comfortable.
[00:40:22] I just don't
[00:40:23] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. what do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions about Islam or Muslims that you see from, let's say like the white, liberal American
[00:40:38] Rolla: it's interesting because I only know what people say out loud, so I don't know what the biggest misconceptions are 'cause I'm not in those spaces. I can only imagine. But when I say, about how Islam, believes in Christianity and Judaism, and they consider them people of the book, how we believe in all the prophets, how we believe in, Moses, Musa,
[00:40:59] we believe [00:41:00] in all the biblical stories. I think people are surprised. we believe in Jesus, obviously as a revered messenger of God. we believe in the Virgin Mary. In fact, Quran has a whole, surah, a whole,
[00:41:12] Chapter, let's call it. named after the Virgin Mary. I think that's a big thing. I think people, may not understand if they don't know anything about Islam. They think Islam is just about, Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam and Allah, and they think Allah is like some sort of, I don't know, deity apart from the rest of the Abrahamic religions.
[00:41:31] it's all the same. Allah just means God. By the way, Arab Christians say Allah. They say mashallah. They say inshallah. So I think that's a big misconception. And I think another one they may not understand is the, humility. In fact, Islam means, surrender or submission, and the whole point is for you to understand that you are not the greatest thing on this earth.
[00:41:55] Like there is something greater than you. You're just a little star in a whole, [00:42:00] billions of stars of a galaxy. Like you're just a little part of something greater, and so there's a humility to it.
[00:42:06] And because there's a humility to it, There's a modesty to it,
[00:42:10] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
[00:42:11] Rolla: so I think, the Western version of being queer is also goes against modesty in maybe some eyes, right?
[00:42:18] It's like you're out, you're loud, it's the opposite of being modest, which of course has to be that way in America. There's a reason why it's called pride, because we've been humiliated for so long that part of the resistance is to be prideful of who you are.
[00:42:32] But then when you try to copy-paste that into a different culture, it's seen as being anti-modest.
[00:42:39] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Hmm.
[00:42:39] Rolla: think you are? So when I dress modestly, and obviously I'm not a hijab, but I do dress modestly, right? I consider myself a modest person. That goes with my Islam.
[00:42:49] I think modesty is a beautiful part of it, and people don't understand. They think modesty is part of being subjugated by someone else. Like, oh, a husband is telling you to be modest or whatever. But they don't understand that [00:43:00] there's modesty rules for males, for females, for everyone.
[00:43:04] And the point is for you to understand that you are just a small kinda piece of a whole universe
[00:43:09] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: when you talk about this, it sounds like, perhaps you could say that there's an element to Islamic culture that, is at odds with this idea of, Western individualism, and that there's more of a focus on the collective. Would you say that's accurate?
[00:43:25] Rolla: Yeah, perfectly said. And it's true, and it's true.
[00:43:28] I don't know at what point, the American society turned into this, capitalistic, consumeristic kind of individual monsters, that don't care about neighbors, that don't care about ICE taking your neighbor into custody, killing them, taking kids away.
[00:43:45] it's disgusting, and I do think that focusing on it,on, individualistic versus community, I think is a big part, and it's a beautiful part of Islam. But I would say, to be honest, I don't know, maybe if you talk to some Christians and, you talk to [00:44:00] Jewish, religious Jewish folks, they might say, "Hey, that's part of our religion, too."
[00:44:04] Like, I can't imagine a world in which someone who considers theirself religious doesn't think communally as well maybe. I don't know, though. I don't really know
[00:44:14] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: you know, as far as the Jewish values that I was raised with, I think honoring the community collective is definitely part of it. But I think like religions, a lot of that has been in some circles has been co-opted by, Western values and capitalistic values.
[00:44:31] And,
[00:44:32] Rolla: Yeah. Yep
[00:44:33] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I guess I'm wondering, and this is a big question, but how have you been, doing, coping the last three years? how do you get up every day? How do you know what to work on? I just feel like with the genocide, it's so horrific, and it's so overwhelming, and been, at times paralyzing yet motivating in different ways for me.
[00:44:54] But I can only imagine you are of that community that is being
[00:44:59] Rolla: [00:45:00] murdered
[00:45:00] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: en masse, erased, attempted to be erased. Like, how do you, how are you here today having this conversation? How are you smiling? How are you still making art?
[00:45:12] Rolla: I don't wanna say I have no choice, 'cause that's not what I'm really saying. What I'm trying to say is that every day I think, what do I have a right or not right to do when my people are being murdered and genocided on live TV? And what I have a right to do is feel some type of way, is to feel, devastation, is to feel pain, is to feel futility sometimes, sure.
[00:45:45] is to feel rage, is to feel sadness. Yes, I have the right to do that. What I don't have a right to do, in my mind, is stop. I don't have a right to My people in [00:46:00] Gaza and in Palestine, They can literally say, "I give up. I'm done. Emotionally, I'm done." They can say it. I can't say it, and I'm not about to say it.
[00:46:11] So I don't have a right. I can't, because I'm here breathing air that's not, like, infected with, seven gazillion tons of bomb waste. I'm here drinking water that's not infested, with rats and sewage. I'm here eating food, refrigerated food. I have a roof over my head that's not about to crumble and crush me and my siblings.
[00:46:38] So What right do I have? I don't. So I have to find a way, I think at the beginning of the genocide, especially as, things were unfolding, and I live, by the way, in Los Angeles, very, very Zionist city, Zionist institutions, Hollywood, financial.
[00:46:54] it's the whole thing. And I felt extremely lonely, [00:47:00] very isolated, even by people that were around me, I felt so isolated. But it's funny 'cause I would drive, to my place of work at the time, and every day I'd drive, there was this small house.
[00:47:14] It was just this little house, and it had this Palestinian flag raised. And I know it wasn't an Arab house. I forget how I knew. I don't know them. I don't know anything. It's just this random road that I drove on, and this random Palestinian flag that was flying.
[00:47:30] And every day I would kind of salute that house, and I'd be like, "Thank you for keeping going. I'll keep going if you keep going." And, uh, and till this day I wish I kind of went up to that house. I don't know who lived in it, But in the sea of like, "I stand with Israel," and like, "Da, da, da, Hamas, Hamas, Hamas," like, that hou- it's funny how
[00:47:55] I literally clamped onto this little house that I would pass by, and I made [00:48:00] this almost this secret agreement in my heart. I'm like, "If you keep going, I'll keep going. Don't stop. I won't stop." To this day, I don't know who that house is, who's living there, what's going on.
[00:48:10] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: You should drop them a note.
[00:48:11] Rolla: I want to, right?
[00:48:12] You think? I'm afraid in the US 'cause they'll feel like... I don't know if they think I'm like... I don't know.
[00:48:17] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: No, I think they'd love that. especially like you're a public figure so they could like easily
[00:48:21] Rolla: Oh, that's fair. Like, they'll be safe. Yeah, they'll feel safe enough that it's not some rando. That's fair. I think I wanna do that, right? Yeah.
[00:48:30] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: does Palestinian liberation mean to you?
[00:48:34] Rolla: I think Palestinian liberation means for that land that is holy to so many people around the world, for that land to be free, for all of us to be able to live in, to worship in freely and for there not to be any one religion that reigns supreme and that dictates who can [00:49:00] worship where, what road they can drive on, what jobs they can get, what school they could study in.
[00:49:06] what water source they can drink from, what trees they can plant For them to just be free. and I think about this a lot, and I think about obviously, you know, the right of return is big, the right for my family to go back to the houses that were stolen. but I would give up my own right of going back if it meant that the land would be free.
[00:49:28] Really, I would. I would. Because it's not about me. Do you know what I mean? It's not about, oh, my family and that house that was in Al-Hazareen. Like I, I'm not fixated on a house. I just want that land to finally be free, just like it was meant to be
[00:49:48] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: thank you for, articulating that and, just say I share your vision. I think one of the most common misunderstandings that I come up against, [00:50:00] in the Jewish community, in the Zionist community, and it's a manufactured narrative, so I understand why.
[00:50:06] But, I think there's this misconception where they think that free Palestine means the inverse of what is happening now. they think it means that, a Palestinian flag or from the river to the sea or saying "free Palestine" means like, oh, we want the Jews, all the Israelis to leave so the Palestinians or Arab people or Muslims can dominate that area and I know that doesn't mean that, and you just articulated that.
[00:50:37] and there's so much to say, and we're so far from, a reality where there is a free Palestine, not to say it, it won't happen and not to say it can't happen. the facts on the ground now it's moving away from that, right?
[00:50:51] in some ways. I guess what I'm trying to get at is like how I, I, I don't know how Palestinians could be expected to live with [00:51:00] Israelis
[00:51:01] that have committed much harm dispossessed them and murdered them and stolen their homes and subjugated them.
[00:51:09] Rolla: they're currently living with that now. That's how.
[00:51:13] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: mean,
[00:51:13] Yeah,
[00:51:13] Rolla: I... they're even living worse because they're actually being ruled over by them. and you know this, I'm sure, I think this is always a fear of the colonizer, when they finally lose power, they finally crumble.
[00:51:28] that was a big argument, in the United States when they were trying to argue against freeing slaves. "Oh my God, they're just gonna attack us. They're j- if you give them freedom, they're gonna just, kill all of us."
[00:51:42] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: and that's a legitimate fear because if not to legitimize their continued subjugation, but I can empathize with the idea of, how could they feel safe if they've done horrific things and imprisoned people?
[00:51:54] of course there's gonna be that fear that they're gonna wanna retribute
[00:51:58] Rolla: harm. But
[00:51:59] [00:52:00] Yeah. Yeah
[00:52:00] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: not a justification to, an excuse to continue oppressing people
[00:52:05] Rolla: Absolutely not. it's a common argument. I personally, I don't think,
[00:52:10] them, I don't know. Let's just, yeah, let's just...
[00:52:10] what we're calling today pretend Palestine was free, inshallah, Ya Rabb. By the way, I know, I know, I know it might seem, if we're looking on the ground, if we're seeing how many hundreds of thousands have been killed in Gaza, Allah yerhamhum, Ya Rabb. and we're seeing, more of the West Bank being eaten up.
[00:52:27] and we're seeing, our Palestinians in Jerusalem and inside 48, like being more and more subjugated by the day. Yes, we are seeing that. But look at Azra wearing a Palestinian keffiyeh in front of my face. That would have never happened two years ago. So there is a change and I do think we are closer than we have ever been to Zionism crumbling because the second that the US, which it's starting to do slowly, slowly, stops supporting that colony is the second that it crumbles.
[00:52:58] It cannot live [00:53:00] without the US pipeline support. It can't. It can't afford anything. so I think we are closer than ever, but I understand your point. it seems grim
[00:53:08] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: and I hold that all too. and that's why I said it, support for Palestinian liberation has never been as and awareness has never been there. At the same time, there's Israelis marching on the border of Gaza today
[00:53:22] Rolla: Yep.
[00:53:23] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: to try to continue colonizing that land.
[00:53:25] 100%. It's coming to a head. It's coming to a head. Like,
[00:53:29] It
[00:53:29] Rolla: you know? Yeah. I think what we're seeing and hearing is the death rattles of Zionism. Like, really. This is all they've got. so what we're calling now today is Israelis, let's say Palestine was free and we go back to, you know, not one religion reigning supreme.
[00:53:44] We have a beautiful constitution that covers our religions. and anyone can worship, in the churches in the synagogues and the mosques. The adhan is heard again. The church bells are heard again. Like, let's say we go to that. I don't think the people who are calling [00:54:00] themselves Israelis today would even wanna live there.
[00:54:03] and I guarantee you, and I know this, because this is how the Palestinians inside 48 have to live today. They have to live with their occupier today. They have to. And ... I don't wanna say they're used to it, but they're versed.
[00:54:16] They're versed in it. They know how to navigate. They understand, realities on the ground, where someone like me could be a little more fiery and could be a little more like, you know what I mean? They're like, "Dude, We can't live with someone like that," right? This is how you live with someone side by side.
[00:54:32] So, I also do think that everyone who has committed war crimes, who we're calling Israelis today, I think that they should be prosecuted, absolutely. If they're in the IDF, I think that it should be prosecution for war criminals. I think it should be no one religion reigning supreme, and everyone else who doesn't like it can leave.
[00:54:55] That's how it should be
[00:54:56] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: do you have hope? Do you think we'll see this in our lifetimes? [00:55:00] And also, what is our responsibility as people in the West right now? And I know you and I might have different responsibilities
[00:55:07] Rolla: Certainly. I always have hope. they're not gonna take away our hope, just like they're not gonna take away our humanity. And I think now more than ever. I have never in a million years would have ever thought, wallah, like, a few years ago, people, you know,
[00:55:22] They didn't even know the difference between Palestine and Pakistan. Like, "Oh, is that the same? Are you Pakistani?" Like, what? And now look. And yes, it makes a difference. And the reason why I know it makes a difference is because you have billionaires, like I mentioned before, spending all their life's worth to try and battle us with buying TikTok and Paramount and CNN.
[00:55:43] So it makes a difference when you speak up, even, yes, even if we're not on the ground being able to help our family and our friends. It's making a difference, and it's making me so hopeful. And how desperate they're getting makes me happy. I look at their [00:56:00] desperation, and I have a smile on my face.
[00:56:03] There is joy in resistance. They're not gonna take away our joy. they're trying to take away everything else. You know how, like, when the Falastini prisoners, and hostages are finally released from the occupation prisons, you know that in Israel there's laws that you're not allowed to receive them, in a group.
[00:56:22] Like, their family. Like, it's meant to be this austere kind of, "Okay, I'm taking you in," and then you can go in your house, and you can celebrate in your house. But you can't celebrate outwardly. In that joy of being free is illegal for Falastinis in Israel. So they are not gonna take away our joy. I don't care.
[00:56:44] I don't care. You can sit here and tell me I'm crazy. You can say you're idealistic, you're whatever, but it's the hope that freed the slaves here in America. It's the hope that, freed South Africa in some way. Obviously, there's a lot [00:57:00] of work to do there. it's the only thing.
[00:57:02] It's the hope that kept, the Jewish people in the Warsaw ghettos, going. When they weren't killed, they had to.
[00:57:10] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: They had to, and we have to learn from that, man. They're not taking away my hope. I don't care, and I swear to God, we will see. But, but
[00:57:26] Yeah
[00:57:28] Rolla: in our lifetime. In our lifetime, Inshallah Adam.
[00:57:31] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. Roel Selback, thank you so much for coming on The Thin Veil. Thank you for making the time to speak with me. I really appreciate it.
[00:57:40] Rolla: thank you for the platform and thank you for who you are
[00:57:43] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I, I also just wanna say I, I so admire everything you're doing at CBS and the Free Press.
[00:57:48] It's just, um,
[00:57:56] Rolla: Damn, dude. I tip my [00:58:00] hat to the Daily Wire. Oh, man.
[00:58:06] Again, a troll by Isida, my brother.
[00:58:11] Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And there you have it. Thank you for listening. If anyone is confused about that ending, the, dry joke I made was that I've heard Rola speak before about how people have commented that she looks like Bari Weiss of the Free Press and CBS, who, is someone we're not a fan of on this show.
[00:58:31] so I was just teasing her about that. Rola, thank you so much for coming on. It was a delight to have you, and you are welcome back anytime. thank you for your wisdom and your compassion and courage. Please follow Rola on all the platforms. I've linked to, where you can find her below Roula has a wonderful new podcast you can check out in addition to all her films. she has a lot of media, [00:59:00] so go check out what Roula's doing. This episode was edited by myself, along with additional editing work from Ali Budner.
[00:59:08] Thanks, Ally and thanks for tuning into another episode of The Thin Veil. Please leave a review.
[00:59:13] Leave your feedback at thethinveilpod@gmail. let me know if you, there are specific guests you want, what you think about this new segment I'm starting with Esther Azar. any other comments, critiques, I am, totally open. Thank you for doing what you're doing. I wish you a very free Palestine,
[00:59:33] Thank you for being here
[00:59:35]