So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

“ For all of us, which is the hardest thing to do, is to really try to reach your true self.” - Vivek Jayaram

What if the problem isn’t the law…but how we talk about it?

In this episode of So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, Megan Senese and Jennifer Ramsey sit down with Vivek Jayaram, an IP attorney who’s rethinking what it means to be a lawyer, not just in how he practices, but in how he shows up, communicates, and builds relationships.

From turning complex legal concepts into engaging Instagram content, to teaching intellectual property law through Taylor Swift (affectionately named “Blank Space”), to sitting in the room before the legal work even begins, this conversation challenges the traditional idea of what a “successful lawyer” looks like.

It’s a conversation about creativity, courage, and choosing to do things differently, even when the industry as a whole tells you not to.

You’ll hear about:
  • Why law feels boring, and how storytelling changes everything
  • Building a platform by making legal concepts relatable (and actually interesting)
  • The reality of getting comfortable on camera
  • Why authenticity isn’t just a buzzword, it’s a competitive advantage
  • Tips for helping clients get to yes
  • Why many lawyers think too small about their role 
  • The long game of business development, and why most people quit too early
  • Why consistency matters more than talent when building visibility
  • The impact of teaching law through pop culture
  • How creativity shows up in unexpected places 
  • Redefining what success looks like for lawyers

About Vivek Jayaram: 

Vivek Jayaram is an attorney. But as Founder of Jayaram Law, he’s also a successful entrepreneur, which gives him a sound base for advising other entrepreneurs, creatives, and the companies they run. From groundbreaking artists and Web 3.0 innovators, to unique international brands in fashion and new media, Vivek handles their intellectual property transactions and disputes, corporate deals, and acts as an outside general counsel. 

Alongside the day job, Vivek teaches intellectual property and entertainment law courses at the University of Miami Law School. Before Jayaram Law happened, he was an associate at Greenberg Traurig, as well as a law clerk to the Honorable Adalberto Jordan of the United States District Court for the Southern District of Florida. Beyond work, Vivek plays and records music, collects contemporary art, and loves to get lost in great cities.

Learn More:
This episode is brought to you by Dealmakers Forums:

Dealmakers Forums is a premier platform for high-impact networking and strategic deal-making in complex markets. Through flagship events across the U.S. and Europe, they convene a curated, senior-level community of investors, corporate leaders, funders, and counsel. Their focus is on delivering meaningful connections, market insight, and real business outcomes in litigation finance and intellectual property.
For more information, visit Dealmakers Forums and view their upcoming event calendar.

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Want to go deeper? Curious about 1:1 coaching with Megan or Jen? Or want the inside scoop on stage? Hit us up below, we’d love to chat!

Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People where we explore the behind-the-scenes of work, law, life, and everything in between. We’re your hosts, business development and legal marketing coaches Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we’re here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real challenges of balancing ambitious careers with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. Instead, So Much To Say is a human-centered leadership, marketing, and culture podcast through the lens of law. We bring you real stories, candid conversations, and thoughtful insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer, what makes you human matters too. So whether you’re navigating billable hours, building meaningful relationships, redefining success, or simply trying to stay human in a high-performance profession, this podcast is for you.
Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human).

[00:00:00] Vivek Jayaram: Whether it's business development or just living life or doing reels or whatever, it's, I think, you know, it really is just about being authentic, if that's the word you want to use, or just being yourself, you know, and like, that's the entire reason I left big law and went to go start my thing in the first place.
[00:00:15] But at the end of the day, I do feel a lot of what happens in. It may not just be big law is you're really encouraged and almost rewarded for concealing who exactly you are. And I understand that, but it didn't match who I was and I was really losing sight, uh, of, of who I really was, and I really left. To start this journey, to like recapture that.
[00:00:42] Megan Senese: Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work life and everything in between. Outside of being a lawyer or a legal marketer, we wanna know what makes you human. And with that, let's get started. Most of our podcast guests I have built relationships with through LinkedIn.
[00:01:04] Our next guest is slightly different because I quote, unquote found him or rather Instagram's algorithm delivered his videos on IP law to my feed. And for me, anytime I see someone who is explaining law in an interesting way using pop culture, I wanna know them. Vivek Jayaram has 65,000 followers talking about IP law.
[00:01:27] He uses it all through cultural references, and I always wanna know what case he's going to cover next. Vivek was also featured in CBS Evening News when he was the first one to create blank space IP law through the lens of Taylor Swift's career at the University of Miami School of Law. Our podcast is about showing the human side of legal, and I feel like Vivek brings all of that to our show.
[00:01:55] It was really fun to record this episode. We could have talked to him for hours. We loved hearing his background story about how he essentially built his firm from nothing. Now he's helping creatives build and protect what didn't exist yesterday. And it's super interesting to hear how he helps them push boundaries.
[00:02:17] And when we often hear in law about how a lawyer's job is to help them get to a yes, he gives us some really interesting stories about what his clients want him to say yes to and how far he's willing to go. So take a listen.
[00:02:32] Jennifer Ramsey: Thank you for getting on. You don't know us like literally at all.
[00:02:37] Vivek Jayaram: I do now I have to say, I feel like we've been following, or at least connected to each other on LinkedIn for, I think on LinkedIn for.
[00:02:46] Probably
[00:02:46] Megan Senese: Yes, 100%. So you were so gracious in allowing us to do a spotlight on you when we were, that was our kind of our, that was the one vehicle that we used to get lawyers kind of out there. You know, we are a legal marketing company. And then I, I think at that point then I connected with you on Instagram, or maybe it was Instagram first, and then I found you on LinkedIn.
[00:03:06] But let's talk about your Instagram. 'cause that, to me, first of all, it was so entertaining, Jen. I'm always sending them to you, right? And I'm like, I love. Just listening to you talk about legal cases, which I have to say I've never enjoyed listening to a lawyer talk about legal cases. So like
[00:03:24] Vivek Jayaram: by me either.
[00:03:26] Yeah.
[00:03:27] Megan Senese: And so I'm like, they're just so entertaining and I care about it. 'cause it's mostly like, you know. Artists and and fashion. And maybe, and maybe that's why it's more exciting, but let's, yeah, let's just talk about, let's just talk about your Instagram for a little bit. Like how did that happen and are you writing it and is it, how do you pick the cases and all the things?
[00:03:45] Vivek Jayaram: Yeah, I mean, it all came together pretty organically. I mean, if I get a serious for a minute on like the thing we just laughing about a minute ago, which is, you know. Law is, it is perceived as so dry, so technical, so boring frankly, right? Is is the public perception of law. And you know, my wife and I being two people, I think I've had this conversation with dozens of people, including some lawyers throughout the last 20 years of my career.
[00:04:11] It doesn't have to be that way because if you list, look back to law school, you know, and what my wife always says this, 'cause she went to law school too, is, you know. You look through any case book, right? First, any one l sort of book. And I, and I've been teaching at University of Miami Law School nine years, and so I, I still visit those books.
[00:04:28] You know, they're all just great stories and we learn these really interesting concepts of black letter law and boilerplate language and stuff through the lens of these stories. And they are. Depending on who you are, they are very interesting stories. But unfortunately a lot of them turn into like period pieces.
[00:04:46] 'cause they're just so old, you know? And so they may not be as relatable to most people, right? So people are like, why am I learning about Civ Pro by reading about something happened on a railroad 250 years ago? Right? Um. So I've always thought, and this kind of goes back actually to when I was in college at the University of Wisconsin in the late nineties.
[00:05:05] I will never forget, we, they posted a course on the Beatles when I was a junior and this was like earth shattering to everybody. Like, oh my gosh, everyone signed up for, I got into it. I was so excited. And honestly since that time, but obviously it's now come out 25 years later with the reels. I have thought that like, you know, teaching very highly technical concepts or, or legal doctrine through the lens of pop culture, really teaching anything through the lens of pop culture is a great way to do it because it can like just keep people engaged when you're.
[00:05:36] Telling it through the lens of pop culture, it is popular culture. So literally by definition it's something everybody can understand and it kind of democratizes this otherwise, like very antiquated, arcane, you know, old boy kind of network, kind of like situation. Right? And so that's like, that's like sets the table for like.
[00:05:54] If I was ever gonna do anything like this, that's the lens that I wanted to sort of do it with. 'cause if you've ever worked with us as a client or you've ever met me, you know, just in, in, in, in real life, I love everything about pop culture, you know, music and fashion and art and, and consumer brands and like all this kinda stuff.
[00:06:11] And so I, you know, being also an IP lawyer, I thought. That strategy, I guess, so to speak, or that, that way of, of storytelling could be just interesting. Right. So kind of starting with that, um, as just my general philosophy on law, and that's how I try cases, that's how I explain things to judges. That's how I teach my courses.
[00:06:29] And so a couple of years ago, you know, we, we had grown a lot in the first couple years of the pandemic. Maybe we went from a team of maybe. Five or six people to like a team of 30 people. And so I was, uh, working with, uh, a friend of mine, Alan Phillips. I wanna give him a shout out. Um, who's a, a, you know, the mar marketing guy, um, who mainly had worked in, in sort of the hotel and design worlds.
[00:06:49] Um, you know, he, he and I were talking and he had the idea. He's like, man, listen, like I love hearing you tell me about. Cases and like why things aren't the way they are. You should try to do that on, on Instagram. And you know, I, I've been on Instagram since the beginning. We're not really a traditional law firm, so you know, we have had Slack since the beginning.
[00:07:05] We're all pretty technology fluent and all that stuff. And so I was like, sure, let's give it a shot. And like, one thing I'll say to your audience is, you know, now you may see these like. Really smooth, clean, you know, videos that just seem like I know exactly what's going on and like I know exactly how to do these and I probably, you know, rip them out in two minutes or whatever.
[00:07:22] You know, that might be the case after loads and loads of practice. But, you know, the very first reel, I was watching it the other day 'cause I, I was having to laugh about it, you know, it took me about 30 minutes to get to where I could literally say who I was and what I do for a living. Right? Everybody knows how to tell stories and that's all this is.
[00:07:40] You just have to find something that know. Lean into that direction.
[00:07:45] Megan Senese: Oh my gosh. There's so much to unpack here because you're speaking to our business development heart. Right. So we, Jen and I are business developers. We grew up in big law until three, mm-hmm. Years ago where we decided that we wanted to work with the lawyers that we liked and wanted our support.
[00:08:02] And we were, you know, not chasing after people and, and so getting people comfortable with. One, storytelling, two being on camera. Oh my gosh. Right. We can't ever get people to like show up on camera and so I think it's a really great reminder to. Not compare yourself all the time, because what I'm seeing now is you very relaxed talk in a chair.
[00:08:25] Is it your, is it your firm office where they're doing, where you do the videos?
[00:08:29] Vivek Jayaram: Few different places. If you look at some of the older ones and not just the older ones, we've kind of gone back and forth. Um, we did a lot in my house. I live in like a a hundred year old house on Miami Beach and it's just got this very magical old.
[00:08:42] Florida Spanish, Mediterranean kind of vibe there. Yeah. We just don't know why, but it just like it. Everybody, the production team, I might say, we all just feel, I obviously feel at home. At home, but like they do too. And the whole. But then, yeah, we've then done a whole bunch, maybe 40 or 40% of them or so in our Miami, uh, studio, which is in the design district here.
[00:09:01] And we've done, I think we've maybe even done a few in our New York space, although you'll see very few there because I live in Miami and my, the, my team that, you know, short form videos hon, give them a shout out to, they are all based in Miami and so we typically will do them at my house or, or at the, uh.
[00:09:16] Studio, but you know, studio, whether it's business development or just living life or doing reels or whatever, it's, I think like it's the hokiest thing to say, especially on a podcast, but like, it's, you know, it really is just about being, you know, authentic is, that's the word you wanna use, or just being yourself, you know, and like, that's the entire reason I left Big Law and went to go start my thing in the first place because, you know, I, I met a lot of great people there.
[00:09:40] I feel like we got to work on very big, interesting. You know, matters in public cases that you could tell your parents about, they'd be very happy that your education went to good use. But at the end of the day, I do feel, uh, that a lot. Of what happens in, it may not just be big law. I think it probably happens, uh, on Wall Street.
[00:09:58] It can happen in certain parts of corporate America, is you're really encouraged and almost rewarded for concealing who exactly you are. You know, uh, dress this way, talk this way, be at this place at this time, for no other reason than I'm just telling you to be at this place this time and show your face, you know.
[00:10:15] I understand that. I'm not saying that there's not some value to some of that, but it didn't match who I was and I really felt for that few years where I was in that sort of machine, um, I was really losing sight, uh, of, of who I really was. And I really left, uh, to start this journey to like recapture that.
[00:10:34] And I'll be honest with you, if I'm being totally truthful, I mean when I started this, the reason error probably looks the way it does is uh, I was just like, you know what? It's never gonna work. So I'm just gonna like, totally swing the fences and just make, make it truly this Lawyer's for innovator's idea and let's just do it.
[00:10:52] Jennifer Ramsey: Have you always had a knack for storytelling? Like, since you can remember out of Curiosity
[00:10:58] Vivek Jayaram: Pro? Um, it, it's probably been. Something that has been a part of my life. I mean, I've see, you know, I've always, I I, I've been a, you know, I played music my whole life. I, I've read and I've always been interested in, in the arts and arts and culture, and, and I guess I, you know, I played in bands when I was younger and like love, you know, listening to all different kinds of music, but lots of songwriter kind of stuff too.
[00:11:23] And I feel like a lot of. Really the great songwriters tell the most beautiful stories, you know, uh, whether it's Bob Dylan or Elliot Smith, or, or Taylor
[00:11:30] Jennifer Ramsey: Swift.
[00:11:32] Vivek Jayaram: Taylor Swift. Sure. Whoever. Right. These are all great master storytellers and, um, and you know, I grew up, we're an immigrant family, you know, big immigrant family, and, you know, that is also, there's a lot of storytelling that happens, uh, around the table.
[00:11:46] Jennifer Ramsey: I love storytellers. Do you have a piece of advice for, for someone who. Wants to be more of a storyteller, whether in their personal or their professional life.
[00:11:57] Vivek Jayaram: Well, maybe I'll say something a little bit controversial. Oh yeah. First of all, I dunno,
[00:12:00] Megan Senese: let's do it.
[00:12:01] Vivek Jayaram: I dunno that everybody, you know, and I know there's a lot of firms and like a few the big ones now that are like.
[00:12:08] Requiring partners and things to get on video and Yeah, I dunno, I dunno that that's everybody's thing. I dunno that that's like a necessary characteristic. I think that might be in identifying characteristic or personality trait for certain kinds of people. Like I love the folk tradition and I love
[00:12:23] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah.
[00:12:23] Vivek Jayaram: You know, just, I, I, I, I like this idea of telling stories and, you know, my father we're, we're, I grew up, um, a Hindu and my dad would read just all kinds of, you know. Old Indian stories to us, whether like Gita and Ramana and like all these and all these things that. Where these long tails of things, you know, on the flip side of that, that's like my eastern side.
[00:12:45] And then I feel like, as you know, what often happens with these first generation people is like, I also sort of discovered and fell in love with American culture through books and, and, and music, you know, so like. Blues and jazz and folk music and rock and roll and, and you know, Jack Kerouac and, and William Burroughs Ginsburg and all those people.
[00:13:03] And I feel like those were my years. I mean, with, with Kurt Cobain sort of leading the way when I was a 13-year-old, you know, I saw Nirvana Chicago when I was 13 and I like, that sort of transformed me a bit, catapulted me into that direction of like, you know, creativity and storytelling I suppose.
[00:13:18] Jennifer Ramsey: So, okay.
[00:13:19] I watched this podcast and I have to tell, okay, this is what I love about you. I mean, we've just met, but like I feel like there's a rapport already, right? And this is what I loved about, I love about You and what you said. I thought this was so freaking amazing.
[00:13:33] Vivek Jayaram: Okay,
[00:13:33] Jennifer Ramsey: so you were talking to Francesca. I loved hearing you say that your sole singular focus was to surround yourself with the most creative people on the planet.
[00:13:45] I'm just kind of regurgitating, like fangirling right now. Okay,
[00:13:48] Vivek Jayaram: go for it.
[00:13:49] Jennifer Ramsey: Um, and so what I thought was, what I think a lot of our audience can take away from this, particularly lawyers, I loved what you said about, you know, you were, you're in the room with these creatives from the beginning and. In like a brainstorming capacity trying to get to Yes, as opposed to the traditional lawyer hat of issue spotting and looking out for obstacles.
[00:14:21] I just. It's such a refreshing take. Yeah. On, on, on a lawyer. And I understand why your tagline is Lawyers for Innovators because it's like, how do we get you to Yes. Instead of Oh, risk, risk, risk, risk.
[00:14:35] Vivek Jayaram: Right.
[00:14:36] Jennifer Ramsey: And then I love, I loved what you said about how creatives can put investment bankers to shame in terms of the amount of risk that they can absorb.
[00:14:46] Oh,
[00:14:46] Vivek Jayaram: absolutely. And
[00:14:48] Jennifer Ramsey: okay, I'm just gonna come full circle. Like, and I just, I'm saying this for our lawyer population. So many lawyers are like hesitant to get involved. Am I engaged? Do we have the engagement letter? Whatever, like you're in the room before that. During that, beyond that. Like you're just in the room and, and you've said when you're in the room at the beginning or for the brainstorm or whatever, you're gonna be in the room for the rest of the, you know, and I just, I love that take on lawyers.
[00:15:16] I love your take on. It's just, to me it's just much more positive and not, not to say that, you know, being, trying to mitigate risk and, and being mindful of risk is, is about like, we have to have that. But like, I just, I loved your take on it. How do I help my client get to Yes.
[00:15:32] Vivek Jayaram: Yeah. No, I, I appreciate that and, uh, love that you remembered the tagline, the lawyers for of theirs.
[00:15:38] You know, our mission is. To enable original ideas, which kind of dovetails perfectly, sort of making things happen. Right. You know, there's a client that I have, uh, we've had for years and, uh, who's general counsel is a guy named John Bellcaster, and the company's called Mischief. And then if you don't know who mischief is, you should go look 'em up.
[00:15:55] Um, they're an art collective, um, you know, backed by, you know, LVMH ventures, but, but they're an art collective. He says something and we just, we actually did a panel together not that long ago, uh, at, at University of Miami where he, uh, said it again and we had a conversation about it, which is the answer.
[00:16:11] So mischief what every one of their art projects or art pieces, so to speak, really toe the line of illegality so it could be viewed. But it, it is defensible. Mm. Right. So I'll give you one example, which was, uh, the, the, I think it's called like the Grand Prix jersey, I believe it was called, uh, which the tagline was raced to the cease and desist.
[00:16:35] So they basically made a Grand Prix jersey. The 20 most famous American logos on it, and they sold it on their website for like 300 bucks a pop or something like that. They sold that immediately. They always do. And they wanted to see, okay, who's gonna sue us? Right. These get, you know, progressively more risky, uh, leading up to, you know, something they did last year, which is they literally stole a sink from the bathroom at the Met and replace the sink with another sink and like, there's a whole story behind it, right.
[00:17:01] Anyway, the point is, yeah, when he's counseling the artist at, at Mission, and this is not, I'm not. Privilege because he's talked about this countlessly, uh, you know, publicly is the answer is always yes, unless it is criminally illegal. And it always gets a laugh from the room, Jennifer. And you know why?
[00:17:18] 'cause the rooms are oftentimes filled with lawyers who think we're, and we're not joking at all. Right. And so I love, now I, you know, we've got a few junior lawyers who are not so junior anymore, who started their career with us and now they're seven, eight years down the road. And I love it because I love now hearing them counsel a client or, or argue with a judge, or argue with, with the opposing counsel.
[00:17:41] And you see. Like the difference that that makes when you look at everything from this getting to yes perspective, right? There's only one reason we're gonna not get you there. And it's if what you're asking us to do is literally illegal from a criminal standpoint, we're gonna get you there. And, and, and it's up to you to decide whether you wanna take this potential civil risk or, or whatever.
[00:18:02] And we'll give, we'll give you the, the playbook and what we think might happen or may not happen. But just shifting that perspective, I can tell you. Moves mountains. Right. And not just your career, but even in life, you, you know, moving like that makes it a lot more fun and adventurous and like interesting.
[00:18:17] Megan Senese: Stealing a sink. Yeah. That's the piece that I'm like,
[00:18:19] Vivek Jayaram: yeah. Interesting. And then, you know, um, you know, you talk about like, this is a, you know, maybe speaks directly to your lawyer audience and if you have younger lawyers listening, I think this is important, which is, you know. You're so right about that, you know, oh, I need the engagement letter.
[00:18:34] And, you know, but it's not only that, it's lawyers tend to think of themselves as like, um, you know, I don't know why, but there's like a, there's literally a toolbox on my desk right now because, right. But. They really just see themselves as like various tools in the box rather than like the entire toolbox and like, you know what I mean?
[00:18:54] And so
[00:18:55] Jennifer Ramsey: yes,
[00:18:55] Vivek Jayaram: it's like, sure, if you are the absolutely best legal writer and you're Ross Gerberman or whatever, I forget his name, but I, you know, you know, probably know Ross, but the guy, the legal writing. Coach on LinkedIn, but if you, if you're, if you're him, if you're, you know, Elena Keegan, who I think is the, just the best Supreme Court justice in terms of a right writer writing abilities and stuff, right?
[00:19:14] That's awesome If you have that skill. And guess what? If you have that skill, you are, every client is going to think of you the minute they need an excellent brief drafted, right? No, no, no doubt. If you are that Kirkland partner who knows everything about m and a, you know, uh, back and forth, guess what?
[00:19:30] When an m and a in a term sheet lands, or they wanna put a term sheet together, they're gonna give you a call.
[00:19:35] Megan Senese: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:36] Vivek Jayaram: But if you really wanna be. The advisor, the counselor, the, the like, you know, con ary or yeah, how you pronounce the, the word. Um, to be in the room at the beginning before anyone's even discussing a legal document, a brief, a dispute, a deal, right.
[00:19:53] That's really where the magic is. And I talk about it on Francesca's popular, probably talked about it in the context of like the early days with some of the artists and things. But now, 17 years later, you know, we're working with some of the biggest brands in the world and I feel like. Because that's how we move.
[00:20:08] Those tend to be where, where we end up, you know? So like early on, if a brand has like a new product launch. They'll ask us to join, which is kind of unusual as lawyers, right?
[00:20:17] Jennifer Ramsey: Yes.
[00:20:18] Vivek Jayaram: And you can't always bill for those things. You can, and they'll, they may just, they may pay it, but it, it signals something different when you just kinda show up and you're like, let's see what you're working on.
[00:20:27] Megan Senese: Right. Well, and that's what we say all of the time where particularly even with our. They're already a client. This is like, this is most of the time we're like, if they're already a client, just check in and ask them what they're working on. But I think a lot of lawyers struggle with, well, I don't even know how to get into the room, or What I've been getting this week in particular is this comparison trap.
[00:20:49] Which is, I didn't go, I didn't grow up in big law, or I didn't clerk, or I didn't go to Harvard, or I didn't, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't, I didn't. Those
[00:20:56] Vivek Jayaram: are all positives, I think.
[00:20:57] Megan Senese: Well, and so they're all saying, that's why I'm not that person's rainmaker. Right. And my approach, and our approach is like, well, fuck those people.
[00:21:06] Do your own thing. Like, we're not asking you to be Johnny Smith Rainmaker. We're asking you to be Megan Sneeze Rainmaker. Like how do you go about that? So how, how do you get yourself into those rooms?
[00:21:18] Vivek Jayaram: There's no single playbook, but there's probably a few things I've done that might be universal that, you know, some people can, can, can relate to.
[00:21:24] I, I did go to big law, I did do a federal clerkship, but I'll say,
[00:21:29] Jennifer Ramsey: I'll
[00:21:29] Vivek Jayaram: say, but I dunno. I especially, I can tell you for sure these days and probably even back in the day. It takes a while before most clients figure that out. It's not like you're, I'm walking into a room saying, Hey, I my 11th circuit you, how you doing today?
[00:21:44] So I think there's a few things. One is, um, you know, this is talked about unlike every entrepreneur podcast, you know, probably overtalked about, but I don't think it really can be overstated, which is you gotta be okay with no, and you gotta be okay with failure and you have to be okay with. Uh, emailing somebody 50 times and they literally, we either will never get back to you or literally might even say like, I'm not interested in talking to you.
[00:22:05] Please stop. And, and you know, that may not be that blunt, but this has been from the beginning, you know, um, there's, you know, a, a one, you gotta be tenacious and consistent and like, um, just okay with, with that, you know? I mean, if I'm looking at. Thinking of two or three of our biggest sort of big brand clients that everybody in the world probably knows and we do some really interesting work for.
[00:22:26] I mean, it's amazing. You know, one of them was probably a six year courting period. I probably started when I was a solo practitioner taking these people to lunch. Anybody who would be willing in the legal department, lawyer, not lawyer, whoever, let me take them to lunch. Then when they would move on, I'd say, oh, before you leave, can you.
[00:22:40] Introduce me to one person on the Google team before you leave. Sure. And then, you know, we, we have this, uh, quarterly newspaper that we publish called The Innovator. I make sure they all get it. Um, anytime anything good happens, I make sure they hear about it. And then finally, oh, finally, finally, finally, five, six years later.
[00:22:54] Okay. You can review one contract. Okay, great. Knock it outta the park. Right. You know?
[00:22:59] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah.
[00:22:59] Vivek Jayaram: Blow their socks off. Or if I see a motion filed, in some case, you know that they're involved in just giving 'em some free advice. Hey, you might wanna do this when they say this next time. Right. Just, there's so many different things, but I think the first thing is being okay with no right.
[00:23:14] And lawyers are so. Treat this lawyer client relationship sacrosanct. And it is, but it's not so fragile that it will break. Right. Not all the time.
[00:23:24] Jennifer Ramsey: Right.
[00:23:24] Vivek Jayaram: So it's okay to send a second email and a third email and maybe a call and whatever. These people are very busy and you are the one asking for the, the, the opportunity to, to, to sell, sell or to have a conversation.
[00:23:37] So one is just, just. Be okay with the no. Right. Two, I'd say you gotta tell everybody on earth what it is you do and how you can help. And please don't use like legalese. 'cause nobody understands and it honestly, they're, they just turn off immediately. Right. So like, you know, this Substack article about like, you know, Hey, can you copyright a vibe?
[00:23:59] Right? Notice I didn't say like the standard for substantial similarity under the copyright act. Yeah, no. Right. But that's what, what that is. And why did I get so much engagement? Because human beings understand what a vibe is. Humans don't understand what derivative work and substantial similarity and all these like legal things that lawyers think make them sound smart.
[00:24:19] But really it just makes them sound a little bit pretentious and a lot boring. Yeah. So I think the second part is like just be a human being and like. Talk to them. Like, what do you do? Well, I, you know, yeah. You could say, I'm a IP lawyer. I mean, how many people are you gonna think know exactly what that means?
[00:24:34] Megan Senese: Not, I mean, yeah, yeah. But it also doesn't make you stand out, right? Like,
[00:24:38] Jennifer Ramsey: right. Like there's a lot of IP lawyers out there
[00:24:41] Megan Senese: and you're now the second IP lawyer I know that has blue hair though, so I will just.
[00:24:46] Vivek Jayaram: Oh, really?
[00:24:46] Megan Senese: Okay, cool. There's one in Canada. Just for the record, I know that, I know I'll have to, maybe I'll introduce the two of you just for, just for
[00:24:54] Vivek Jayaram: fun.
[00:24:54] I think those things, you know, telling everybody what it is you do, being okay with No, and it, this is probably the most important thing, which in, in today's sort of culture is not really, it's, it's not, it's not the vibe, so to speak. It's, which is, you know. The only way this stuff works is you set a vision or a goal or objective or whatever, and you stay focused on it for a very, very, very long time.
[00:25:21] Right. You, I have people who, like, I did three reels, like nothing happened. Okay. Well nobody should expect it. You go. I sent, you know, I did three, I did a week of Link. I had a very close friend, partner of Big Law New York. You know, you've been trying to probably be a perfect client for you guys. Yes.
[00:25:36] Megan Senese: Send more way
[00:25:37] Vivek Jayaram: I'll, I'll, and he's like, okay.
[00:25:40] So I came up with this playbook with him for LinkedIn, one week of LinkedIn posts. He did five of them, one each day. I was so happy for him. He's like, nothing happened and that was it. And I'm like, okay, well nothing's gonna happen. He's like, how long do I have to do this? I'm like, try come back to me after about 12 or 18 months of doing this and see, and he's like, 18 months of posts.
[00:25:59] I'm like, he's like, that sounds crazy. I'm like, well, it's not easy, but you have to stay consistent and focused over a long period of time. And that's probably where most people fail.
[00:26:07] Megan Senese: Yeah. Sometimes I say that's the only thing, like this is me being a little bit like backhanded. To myself, but the only thing that makes me good at my job is that I am stubbornly consistent.
[00:26:17] Right? Like, I'm like, I like, I'm like that. I mean, look at this, right? Like I just keep following you. Like, uh, you know, is following you commenting. And now we're, now I have a podcast invited, you said yes. Yeah. But you've also seen my content, I think, which is also allows you to be more likely to say yes, right?
[00:26:33] So there's just so many things, and this is just content, right? We're not even talking about. The substantive work that we're, that we're both doing. I wanna talk about Taylor Swift. We at stage are big swifties.
[00:26:45] Vivek Jayaram: Oh, okay.
[00:26:45] Megan Senese: We're
[00:26:45] Jennifer Ramsey: swifty.
[00:26:46] Vivek Jayaram: Good to hear.
[00:26:46] Megan Senese: I wanna talk about the course that you created, right? And like how did that come to be?
[00:26:52] Is that, or is that just continuing to follow your philosophy of make IP fun?
[00:26:56] Vivek Jayaram: It, it's probably the latter. It really, so I've been teaching, uh, in 2016. I, uh, I, I sort of helped, uh, start this program at the University of Miami Law School, uh, which we call Easel, EASL, which is Entertainment Arts and Sports Law, and, uh, which is like a, a honors program at the University of Miami Law School.
[00:27:15] And I am the chair of the arts part of it. As part of starting this, I also said, Hey, I'll, I'll try to kick it off by teaching at least once a year or something like that. So I did like anatomy of a. Trademark litigation. I did, uh, you know, a few courses. I did one right at the beginning of the pandemic, uh, right when, uh, AI was getting, you know, a little bit of more mainstream attention called chat, ENT, which was all about, um, how, uh, it's impacting each of the, uh, disciplines in the entertainment field.
[00:27:44] Um, ai. So around that time, um, you know, it was early in the pandemic and I'll actually never forget it was when. Uh, she, you guys are swift too, so you'll li you'll like the little bit of the, the, the Easter eggs here. So it's like, you know what she announced in, in, in her very Taylor way that she was gonna be releasing midnights.
[00:28:02] I'm like, oh, this will be interesting. Cool. And a new, new Taylor Swift record. And I'll be honest with you guys, I was, can't say that I was a big Taylor Swift fan, um, but then when 1989 came out, I love that record. I think that's a great one. And I think that's timeless, like classic. And I think we'll be listening to that, you know, forever.
[00:28:18] And then folklore ever evermore, I was like, wow, these are, these are great records too. And so when she announced midnights, I was like, you know, and then, um, I was thinking about it and then I think right around that time was the Taylor's version stuff was like kind of. Right. So I started reading about Taylor's version and I somehow went down a rabbit hole and I learned about the evermore trademark dispute.
[00:28:36] I then learned about the Abercrombie and Fitch publicity rights issue she had like 15 years ago when they made the t-shirts that said More, more boyfriends than Ts. And like, you know, and then, uh, you know, and so I thought, I started thinking about like, boy, copyright, trademark publicity rights, the, the Taylor's version, copyright strategy.
[00:28:56] Pretty genius, you know? Um, and, you know, others had tried that before, by the way, prince, uh, Def Leppard, uh, you know, and, and yeah, even Journey. And, um, nobody succeeded. And here she is doing the new recordings that all go to Global Number ones. It's kind of literally unimaginable. So I'm like, wow, here's somebody who's.
[00:29:16] Really lived the, the expanse of like IP law, right. In all these different ways. Um, and I was just writing 'em down on like, on a, on uh, or just typing it into my slack. And I saw that I had like eight different categories and I'm like, wow, this is interesting. Like I could totally do a course out of this.
[00:29:32] And so I just quickly, and this is before uh, Jett, I truly did design the course. And, and that's what we do. We talk, I'm actually teaching it right now. This is like the fourth. Fourth time I'm teaching it, or fifth or something like that. But, um, you know, we do the, a day, a day on trademark, a day on publicity rights, a day on, um, sound recording, a day on Taylor's version a day.
[00:29:51] You know, we just kind of go through and really teach all of the sort of basics and a little bit of deep dives in some areas of IP law lens of Taylor Swift's career, and it's called Blank Space.
[00:30:02] Megan Senese: Oh my gosh, so good.
[00:30:04] Vivek Jayaram: Yeah. And it's pretty cool because the reason needed Blank Space at first was because, uh, honestly, I thought kind of.
[00:30:09] Clever name because at the time nobody had ever taught a course, a legal course, uh, you know, involving Taylor Swift. I thought it was a little bit blank space because she's, uh, the, the perfect story sitting right in front of us and nobody's told it. It was kind of cool, I mean, right, right. I did not expect it to get as much attention as it did.
[00:30:26] And I remember there was a Miami Herald article that came out, uh, I think after I taught the first course and, um, the first day the week before that there had been some, uh, and hope I'm not getting myself in trouble here, but hey. That's why I'm not a tenure professor. Um, you know, there some, there were some rumblings at the law school that I had heard about where a lot of the, uh, leadership was like, Hey, why is this guy coming in here and teaching?
[00:30:49] Um, you know, why, why is Rom doing the, this Taylor Swift class? Like that just sounds so
[00:30:53] Megan Senese: like beneath, like, be. Be
[00:30:56] Vivek Jayaram: beneath, right? Mm. And then the Miami year old article came out the next day and you know, people started to change their tunes and then the next week I was on CBS evening news talking about it.
[00:31:06] And I think that good obvious for university, and I will give a shout out to, um, law school because it's an amazing place to study, to teach. Like the campus is amazing. If you're thinking about law school. It's a great place. To consider, but so then it, I think at that point, and you guys know the rest of the story, which is now, there's probably 10 law school classes about, uh, Taylor Swift and I know they're teaching one at Sanford.
[00:31:25] That's about fair use and stuff like that too. So it's kind of, kind of interesting.
[00:31:27] Megan Senese: I mean, I love that so much. Has Taylor Swift reached out to you?
[00:31:31] Vivek Jayaram: She has not. Um, I do know, uh, one of the litigators that handles, um, a a bunch of her stuff that I've had a chance to, we actually did a panel together at, uh, a, a, um, thing a couple years ago, but I have not heard from her.
[00:31:44] Oh, cool. If, if she wants to reach out, I'm I'll. I'm, I'm,
[00:31:46] Jennifer Ramsey: maybe this will be it. Right? You never know.
[00:31:49] Vivek Jayaram: You never know. You never know.
[00:31:50] Jennifer Ramsey: What's your favorite Taylor Swift song?
[00:31:52] Vivek Jayaram: Ooh, um, probably. Blank Space is a great song. I mean, I do like Cruel Summer is a great song. Um, the one is a great song. Um,
[00:32:02] Jennifer Ramsey: oh God. Yeah.
[00:32:02] Vivek Jayaram: You know, I mean, there's so many as a, as an album, it's without a doubt. 1989, I feel like it really just clicks on every, uh, for me on, you know, and it was a good. Um, I feel like it, it, it toes the, it's, it's like in between this like pop folk and rock, kind of like all in, but I'd say those, yeah,
[00:32:18] Megan Senese: it's, it's fun when like, that kind of happens and I, I think for, I mean, we could obviously spend so much time talking just about Taylor Swift, but I like what.
[00:32:27] Every time she does something like marketing genius, I'm like, gosh, that's so good. Like, gosh, I wish I had come up with an idea like that. Gosh, that's such a like, look at that community building. Look at that legal protection. Like look at the way she's building like her fans, right? All smart. The things.
[00:32:41] And so that's, that's what I, that's really why I like to be a Taylor Swift swifty in our house to talk about, like, look at what people can do and music can do and, and protection can do, and innovation can do and all the things. Okay, so as we're starting, this has been so fun. So I'm like, as we're wrapping up and as we're, as we're coming down, like, what's next for you and your firm and like, what, what are you looking forward to?
[00:33:05] What's, what's on the horizon? All the things.
[00:33:07] Vivek Jayaram: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's an, it's been an interesting time for us and, and, and, you know, thankfully mostly good ways, you know, I mean, it's been, uh, we got 17, we're celebrating 17 years this August. Yay.
[00:33:19] Jennifer Ramsey: Congratulations.
[00:33:20] Vivek Jayaram: Oh, thank you. And you know, in many ways I feel like we're sort of entering a new phase of the firm.
[00:33:25] You know, I think. Initially, as, as you mentioned, Jennifer, you know, the, the truly the North Star for me, I was young, didn't know very much, pretty immature, but I had this idea that I just wanted to work with the most creative people in the world. Right. And I noticed, noticed, I didn't really say, you know, just entertainers or just artists or just, you know.
[00:33:44] Like engineers, it's like all of it, right? You can find creativity in every corner of the world and of, of, of like commerce and stuff like that. And so, you know, I do think like in the, probably from the time we started up until, you know, a couple years into the pandemic, I feel like. That was like realizing that chapter or that vision of like, you know, 'cause we built a really close knit community of clients and friends and we've all kind of grown together and a lot of these artists and brands that, you know, were, you know, many of them, most of them unknown wise are working with them, a lot of them now, sort of household names and things like that.
[00:34:19] And so now I think in the last couple of years, I know moving into the future, probably one thing that we're really focused on. Are these legal tech products that were, were, we've developed and uh, we've got one out in the market called Take Care. Um, which if you're lawyer listening and you're actually, we did not build it for business development, Meghan, Jennifer, but
[00:34:36] Megan Senese: yeah, tell us about it.
[00:34:37] It's called Take Care.
[00:34:38] Vivek Jayaram: Yeah. So Take Care is a, so, look, you guys have, we all have smartphones now, and you know, probably every week, certainly, maybe even every day, for some of you, you're getting emails from Netflix and Uber and Meta and the rest of them telling you that the terms and conditions have changed.
[00:34:53] Well. Companies have this too, right? They have and, and the bigger ones have hundreds of enterprise software contracts that also tend to change from time to time and. None of us are looking at that. And guess what? Nobody in the GCs office are looking at those either and, and nobody really has for the last 20 years, 25 years.
[00:35:10] And they're really, for most of that time, hasn't really maybe been a real risk in not looking at those things. But we've noticed over the last few years and our clients have reported to us, uh, we've had some interesting horror stories that inspired us to, to develop this product. But this product take care.
[00:35:24] Now what it will do is it will monitor all of a company's T's and C's. And when there is a change in terms, it gives, you know, the GCs office or whatever, a red line and a very plain English explanation of what the, the, that change means for what impact it'll have on your business. Right.
[00:35:43] Jennifer Ramsey: That's so cool.
[00:35:44] Vivek Jayaram: Oh, right. It's, and it's like, you know, it's,
[00:35:46] Jennifer Ramsey: and I love the name.
[00:35:47] Vivek Jayaram: Yeah. Take care. It's because of the acronym tc.
[00:35:50] Jennifer Ramsey: Tc,
[00:35:51] Vivek Jayaram: yeah. Yeah. So it's very interesting because it's. It's now becoming a high risk thing because every app says, Hey, the, you know, one of the things that there was a, there was a, one of the few things that happened was there was a Zoom transcription app, and I'll leave it nameless for now, that changed its terms and said all your Zoom conversations are now gonna be shared with, uh, our LLM and you know, we for training and stuff like that.
[00:36:15] And that just bad and gets a lot of wows. But for these companies, when they really started digging in, they're like, oh my gosh, we were talking about an m and a deal on Zoom. So that means we now need to go tell the counterparty we breached the NDA. Um, another time, uh, they said, uh, we were, we were talking about an MSA, which has a confidentiality provision.
[00:36:32] Ugh. Looks like we breached that. Oh my God. And here's the worst, the worst one was a company said, I can't believe it. Due to the employee's demand. Last year we amended our employee handbook to say that we will not share any of the information regarding, you know, their, their performance plans or their improvement plans or HR issues with anybody.
[00:36:53] They wanted that in writing, and so we put it in the handbook. Well, guess what? HR was using this app and now the, the transcription company has all the information regarding all of these HR issues. Right? So, so basically we, we, we rolled this out and it's, it's, we got it with like 15, 20. Companies that are, you know, using it now and, you know, paying, using it.
[00:37:11] Yeah. So, so we had it working and then believe it or not, um, and I'm not gonna say who or what or whatever, but we've now been contacted and are talking to several of like the biggest law firms in the world because they are seeing it as something, um, that sure it can help their clients, but they would like to be the ones to be able to, to, to, to give it to their clients or we we're, we're probably not gonna white label, but what we will do is.
[00:37:36] The bottom line, what they want, and this is where the sales part comes in, is, or the client development relationship development comes in. They wanna be the ones who are notified when there's a change in terms. Because a lot of times, like in one instance we had a few weeks ago, a, an app changed its terms to say that EU now controls the data privacy provisions.
[00:37:56] Us that obviously as something like that, requires tens of thousands of dollars of, you know, counseling and guidance on modifying your, your policies. Right. You know, it allows a lawyer to be a good person by picking up the phone and notifying them that something has happened that they need to take action on.
[00:38:12] Maybe shows a little bit of fluency with technology in the future and risk and things like that. And, um, we definitely didn't build it thinking that. Lawyers are gonna think this is a way for them to get in deeper with their clients, but that
[00:38:24] Jennifer Ramsey: brilliant
[00:38:24] Vivek Jayaram: we're working on. Yeah.
[00:38:25] Megan Senese: I love, I love that.
[00:38:26] Jennifer Ramsey: I, I have another question.
[00:38:28] So you spend your life around creative people, but when it's just you in the quiet, in the solitude, where does your inspiration come from? Where do your ideas come from? Where does your creativity come from?
[00:38:42] Vivek Jayaram: It all comes from music for me. Um, I, I, I listen to an unbelievable amount of music. I play music. I record music at home.
[00:38:49] Uh, you can ask my family. There's guitars and instruments in every room of the house, and I'm like, I'm always, I'm always noodling. And, and, and tonight I am taking one of my sons, my younger one to a wrestling match, believe it or not, like a arty art re a Japanese art wrestling match from like six to eight.
[00:39:07] And my older son has plans for the whole night, so I'll probably have like. After eight o'clock sort of to myself after I put 'em down and stuff like that, right? So what would I do is like I would just listen to him play music for a few hours. And I kind of do that at every sort of moment I get. And I would say the other place is, is, is really, for me at least, is running and yoga, which are both two things that I, I do a lot of.
[00:39:26] And so yoga practices is a really great way to just sort of try. Live in the stillness of your thoughts and, and uh, and, and I find running for me also is unbelievably meditative and, uh, really clears your mind in a way. I mean, if I had to be honest with you, most of these ideas from the innovator to like certain features of the products to brand stuff have come and like, unlike mile seven of some run on Miami Beach somewhere.
[00:39:52] Yeah. It's just the best feeling in the world. And I don't miss it and people tease me. 'cause my calendar, I literally calendar all that stuff. But that stuff's all very important. So you have to,
[00:40:01] Megan Senese: well we always, we always find the yogis, Jen. We always find the, oh,
[00:40:05] Vivek Jayaram: okay.
[00:40:06] Megan Senese: Jen's a certified instructor.
[00:40:09] Vivek Jayaram: Oh, amazing.
[00:40:09] So is my wife, Carolina. Well, oh my gosh.
[00:40:11] Megan Senese: Oh, love this.
[00:40:12] Jennifer Ramsey: Oh my
[00:40:13] Megan Senese: god.
[00:40:13] Jennifer Ramsey: Love
[00:40:13] Vivek Jayaram: this. We go, I love that. And on the retreats there's always like, well there's one that we do called the Spark Retreat, which is really fantastic, which, um, we do, it's like half yoga, half writing, and, uh, it, that's also a good. Time and place to like just be creative.
[00:40:27] But you know, cre, everyone's creative. I, I don't buy it. When everyone said human beings are creative species. I mean, that's what we are. I think it's all about just unlocking it in you and, and I can only speak for myself because that's the only experience I've had, but I, for, I think, and this really applies to everything in life, including business development for lawyers, which is the way to unlock that I think is to just try to.
[00:40:48] For all of us, which is the hardest thing to do, is to really try to reach your true self. And for me, you know, trying to just, you know, do everything I can to just be myself and not try to be somebody I'm not and try to be other people. That's where this journey started for me, back in oh nine when I started this.
[00:41:02] And, um, that for me more than any. Client win or loss or product or thing has been really truly like you know, the joy of a lifetime.
[00:41:14] Megan Senese: This episode is brought to you by Dealmakers Forums. Dealmakers Forums is a premier platform for high impact networking and strategic dealmaking in complex markets. Through flagship events across the US and Europe, they bring together a curated senior level community of investors, corporate leaders, funders, and legal counsel.
[00:41:35] Their focus is on delivering meaningful connections, market insight and real business outcomes and litigation finance, and IP. I met the Founder and CEO a few years ago, and so I'm super excited that they were able to sponsor this episode. What I personally love about Dealmakers Forums is their one-to-one meetings that are held onsite at their events.
[00:41:56] So go check them out at dealmakersforums.com.