From “Captain Calamity” to the Northwest Passage: Mark Agnew's Triumph Over Failure

Episode: Mark Agnew — Failure, Resilience, and the Northwest Passage

Twice he set out to row the Atlantic. Twice he failed. One attempt ended in humiliation, splashed across newspapers as “Captain Calamity.” The second haunted him for years as he questioned whether he was truly an adventurer at all.

But failure didn’t end Mark Agnew’s story. It became the foundation of it.

In 2023, after 103 days in the Arctic, Mark and his team became the first to kayak the entire Northwest Passage — one of the last great polar challenges. Along the way, he faced polar bears, storms, fractured relationships, and the ghosts of his past.

What he discovered is that resilience isn’t about gritting your teeth. It’s about reframing failure, adapting, and finding meaning in the struggle

🔑 In This Episode

• Growing up in the shadow of adventure — his father mapping Patagonia and his mother travelling solo across Asia
• The humiliation of being rescued after just 48 hours at sea — and why he immediately wanted to try again
• The crushing weight of his second Atlantic failure, and how it became his “fork in the road”
• How a £50,000 scam nearly ended his dream before it began
• The polar bear encounter that tested his courage
• What 103 days in the Arctic taught him about resilience, camaraderie, and the meaning of adventure

🌟 Key Quotes

• “If you’re too tough, you can’t be resilient. Real resilience is about adapting, laughing at yourself, and being brave enough to know that asking for help isn’t weakness.”
• “Frame your struggles as part of the hero’s journey. The darkest moment isn’t the end — it’s the turning point.”
• “Failure didn’t define me. It refined me.”

🌍 Learn More

• Explore Mark’s world: sampenny.com/mark-agnew
• Work 1:1 with me to tackle your own bold goals: sampenny.com/action

Mark’s story is proof that failure isn’t the opposite of success. It’s part of it.

Creators and Guests

Host

Sam Penny

Sam Penny is an adventurer, entrepreneur, and keynote speaker who lives by the mantra “Say YES! to the Impossible.” From swimming the English Channel in winter to building and selling multi-million-dollar companies, Sam thrives on pushing boundaries in both business and life. As host of Why’d You Think You Could Do That?, he sits down with ordinary people who have done extraordinary things, uncovering the mindset, resilience, and bold decisions that made it possible — and showing listeners why their own impossible is closer than they think.

Guest

Mark Agnew

World Record Holder & Motivational Speaker

What is Why'd You Think You Could Do That??

They’ve swum oceans, scaled mountains, launched empires, and shattered expectations. But before they did any of it, someone, maybe even themselves, thought: “You can’t do that.”

Hosted by Sam Penny, Why’d You Think You Could Do That? dives into the minds of people who said “screw it” and went for it anyway. From adventurers and elite athletes to wildcard entrepreneurs and creative renegades, each episode unpacks the one question they all have in common:

“Why'd you think you could do that?”

If you’re wired for more, haunted by big ideas, or just sick of playing it safe, this is your show.

Sam Penny (00:00)
The sea is black and endless. Icebergs grind and shift around you, groaning like giants in the night. You've been in a kayak for over three months, shoulders screaming, fingers numb, every breath a cloud in the Arctic cold. The tent shakes in the wind, but it isn't the storm that wakes you. It's the sound of claws scraping against the canvas.

A polar bear leans its full weight into your fragile shelter. You're alone. There's no rescue plane coming. No port in sight. Just you, your paddle and the thin line between survival and disaster.

This is what today's guest chose. He wasn't a lifelong kayaker or a seasoned polar guide. He was a journalist who failed twice at rowing the Atlantic, rescued in humiliating fashion, left wondering if he really was an adventurer at all. And yet instead of quitting, he came back stronger, wiser, determined to prove, mostly to himself, that failure wasn't the end. It was the beginning.

In 2023 after 103 days at sea with three teammates, he became the first person to kayak the entire Northwest Passage. Two world records, European adventurer of the year, and perhaps more importantly, proof that you don't have to be fearless to do the impossible. You just have to keep paddling when everything tells you to stop. This is why do you think you could do that? And this is Mark Agnew.

Mark, welcome to the show.

MARK (01:32)
Wow, that was a very poetic bit about the polar bear. As you were reading out, I was thinking, is this from my book? It sounds better than anything I could have written. Oh, thank you. The very kind introduction. It made me sound much more hardcore than I am.

Sam Penny (01:43)
you can take...

I don't know, Mark, after doing all my research, this is going to be a pretty epic interview. There's so much to it. But from the outside, now, from all of my research, it really does seem that you are destined to adventure. But in truth, your path started a lot more ordinary. So take me back to your childhood in Edinburgh. What kind of kid were you?

MARK (02:11)
Well, yeah, this is, you know, now that I do what I do, people see my background and think, ⁓ well, it makes sense now because, my dad is like a proper explorer, capital E, like mapping part of Patagonia and expeditions to Greenland, unclimbed peaks or ⁓ Himalayas, whatnot. And my mom was a journalist and I ended up becoming an adventure sports journalist. So the two of those coming together, you know.

You don't have to be a professional psychologist. But equally, my mum was an adventurer and she flew to Australia in her 20s in the 1970s and then worked her way back overland through the Southeast Asia, the Middle East, which is as dangerous as being on a knifehead ridge in the Himalayas like my dad. So it all seems obvious, but it didn't feel inevitable. And I certainly wasn't like planning on it. What I really wanted to do is just play rugby.

You know, ⁓ and I did a lot of sailing and as a family, were outdoorsy and we did camping holidays and whatnot. But then by the time I was 12, I just wanted to play rugby and, ⁓ basically stopped sailing and, ⁓ doing a bit of hiking like every now and then. ⁓ but I was just playing rugby on Wednesdays, Saturdays and Sundays for a while. I had three different teams playing rugby. and, ⁓

But yeah, so it wasn't just this, in fact, I didn't even realize until sort of these big questions started coming up and I started looking back and saying, yeah, I guess there is that adventure thing and the journalist thing all coming together. It didn't seem obvious to me. We certainly weren't like regaled with stories of adventure over the dinner table that made me like sit with my jaw open and want to be like my dad or mom. In fact, my dad's.

He tells me great stories now because they organically come up. might say something that reminds him of a time he was on sea ice and he says, yeah, well, funnily enough in 1966, but it was my mum who would tell me like most of the stories. So was sort of my mum's anecdotes that infused adventure into us. So yeah, what kind of kid was I? I was like basically quite normal. Probably I was a class clown. I was like cheeky, but I wasn't.

And I probably have a list of teachers who really don't like me, but equally I wasn't like a rebel. I wasn't completely off the rails. I was doing fine at school and working basically as hard or as little as I needed to to get Bs because I didn't have any particular ambition. And just spending the rest of time playing rugby and sort of going about my business.

Sam Penny (05:02)
So then your father, who is a very well-known adventurer, Sir Crispin Agnew, you didn't grow up really appreciating, was it, the adventures that he had done?

MARK (05:16)
Well, I'd say my dad's been on Everest and stuff like that. Well, basically it was only the Everest one because like everybody knows what that is. as a nine year old or whatever, you don't understand what it means to go to Patagonia. And even when I did get excited about it later, I thought, oh, I want to do the stuff that my dad did. But it's only now that I'm like 34 when I think he was 21 or 22 and he went to Greenland for the first time and two people die.

He's just like going, getting on with life afterwards. It's these huge things that we would all be therapizing and having PTSD about and processing. And he was just spending six months by himself and, not by himself, but with his team in the middle of nowhere and dealing with death and then getting on with it at 21 or 22. And then a few years later, leading his first expedition to Greenland at 20.

five or six, those are the ages now that really like strike me, rather than, well, as well as the incredible feats.

Sam Penny (06:23)
So did you feel any pressure or inspiration, motivation from your family background to become an adventurer?

MARK (06:30)
Not at all. didn't feel pressured to do anything. mean, as I say, I was doing rugby and they, both my parents who have no interest or background in rugby just threw themselves a hundred percent into me ⁓ wanting to pursue whatever it was I wanted to pursue. So, you know, I boarded, so I lived at school, but my mom would drive in and pick me up. So take me to the fitness sessions that my club was doing outside of school. I'm just trying to full on facilitate that. And I look back and, know, ⁓

Certainly, just after school, felt like I had messed up a couple of opportunities to be picked in some bigger teams. And I look back and I'm like, well, that is all on me because everybody was doing everything they could to give me the platform I needed to reach my potential or not. I was just being too lazy to do it. So they were full on taking it. I guess the pressure I did feel is like...

You know, I say pressure jokingly, teasing my mum about this. And sometimes it comes across like I'm not teasing my mum because I'm glad she says this, but she'd always like make us pick the most interesting option. You know, what are you going to tell your grandkids? Which she'd say to us. And, know, even if I'd say, oh, so, so, so out of school and he's already on 200k a year. Yeah. But what's he going to tell his grandkids? Or, um, you know, I got suspended. Yeah. And I got suspended from school a couple of times. And obviously at the time it was like a huge deal and I got in a lot of trouble, but like, um,

Sam Penny (07:48)
love that.

MARK (07:56)
you she's like, Oh, I was always a little bit happy that my kids had a bit of personality and I do, you you don't want them straight A students, you know, pass the driving test from the first attempt, go to Cambridge, boring. Um, but it was so good. But then I did, I do have a bit of an existential crisis that like, what am going to tell my grandkids? Like my life is not interesting enough. Like, um, and it was, I guess it was really when I got out of uni and I'm like doing my first few office jobs and I'm staring at the wall thinking this cannot be it.

this cannot be it and I feel that question in like a visceral sense. ⁓ please don't let this be it. And that is really when, you know, when I talk about all my motivations and I really thought hard about why I wanted to do this. And I sometimes forget that how much of a driver it was that I just cannot face the boredom.

People are never satisfied with the question like what, you know, like Mallory who ⁓ tried to Everest a hundred years ago, why do you want to do it? Because it's there. And I think that's just like a flippant answer to get rid of somebody because really like nobody's satisfied with the answer. Like, why do you want to go and risk your life? Because I enjoy it. But why do you enjoy it? It sounds miserable. you know, but I think the part of the reason it's difficult to justify is because nobody else is given that level of scrutiny. Why do you want to be a

a banker. Oh, well, you know, it's just, it's an interesting job. It's interesting, but why is it interesting to you? Why, why, why, why? like, nobody else has given that level of scrutiny. And I basically cannot think of a good reason to do like a really boring job where I just stare at a wall forever. that question is that answer has changed a little bit because I have kids now and you do want to give them opportunities. So like,

Sam Penny (09:30)
earns good money.

MARK (09:54)
money serves a different role. now I'm, it sounds like I'm being dismissive now to people who are working hard for their families. And so, but at 21 I was just like, I can't, I can't think of a reason to do this. I've got to do something interesting and that will stem from the, you you're going to do something for the grandkids.

Sam Penny (10:15)
So then what was the first small step that you remember that really pushed you outside your comfort zone?

MARK (10:21)
Well, I mean, I guess the first step for the brilliant Atlantic was a friend of sending me, I think it was through Facebook, like a video of people doing it and saying, let's do this. And we were very naive, like, okay, cool. Well, they do it in December and we're going to graduate in June or July. And we don't want to like everybody parties at the end of uni. So you don't want to miss that. So we'll spend a couple of months partying and we start training in August and we'll raise the money by December and blah, blah, blah. We'll go. And it takes years to.

the money in particular and training as well. So that didn't happen that winter. But when we did go and try row to the Atlantic in 2016, it was he and I with a much bigger team as well around us. So that was like the moment where a specific idea started to crystallise. there was no, but it was more broad, but I guess it was broader of gears turning as well.

Sam Penny (11:14)
Okay, so that...

So that first attempt, 2016, you're there, ready to go, you set off. How did you feel?

MARK (11:31)
Relief, huge amount of relief. There's like tension in my shoulders. I didn't even realize I was carrying because it's simple. It's really difficult. The stakes might be high. It might even be very dangerous, but it's simple. You're waking up to row from A to B. You're sleeping to recharge to wake up to row from A to B. It's just the simplicity is absolute and nothing else.

matters except for that one binary goal. That simplicity is a huge relief and it took me by surprise because it should have been the moment to peak nerves and worry and whatnot. And that relief is just that stayed with me. I remember that feeling and I want to go back again and again and again and have that simplicity. ⁓ Hightened probably by the many worries leading up into the start of that adventure where all of us were thinking

Is this safe? There seems to be a lot wrong with the boat and there's a lot of question marks that we all have, but then as soon as you start, those questions don't matter because there's nothing you can do about it anymore.

Sam Penny (12:41)
So how long was that adventure meant to last?

MARK (12:44)
So we were saying we were going to be the first people to row the Atlantic in under 30 days. I think the record was like 34 or something at a time. And we were going to ⁓ break the four minute mile of ocean rowing. I don't know who called it the four minute mile, but probably us. and it lasted, you know, to be true to our word, we were there for less than 30 days. We were rescued after 48 hours. there's like...

Sam Penny (13:07)
48 hours, so what went wrong?

MARK (13:10)
A number of ways you can arrange to row the Atlantic. You can do it independently where you just buy a boat, you get it to the coast of the Atlantic and you row. You could do it in, most people do it in a race called the Talisker Whisky Atlantic Challenge and where you pay a fee, you join the race, it's probably 30 boats. Or you can do a pay per place. So there's a captain and he'll sell spots, 10 spots on the boat. And I guess objectively, it's safer.

because there's a captain on board, he's in charge, he's done it before. Certainly cheaper, it's the cheapest option ⁓ by far because he's split it by most amount of people and there's less admin because they arrange it. But I hear a lot of stories ⁓ and I've experienced two of them myself where there's no oversight, there's not a governing body or whatever. So people are very disappointed and that is...

the kindest way I can say, in danger, people are in danger. Because when you outsource it, you have no control and who knows what their safety levels are going to be. That was a case with us, this guy had, I joined a paper place with my friend, Stuart, who had ⁓ sent me an initial message to Road Atlantic and we joined a crew of 10 people, all who had paid up there some.

Sam Penny (14:32)
So, sorry,

is this 10 on the one boat?

MARK (14:34)
10 on one boat. So part of the reason we thought we could do it so quickly is because it was like a catamaran shaped boat, two hulls. So it could go faster, but also it was much bigger, so we 10 people, ⁓ including the captain. And the boat was really coming apart that second night. And one of the guys was getting sick because he was sleeping in two or three inches of water and then rowing for two hours. ⁓

the official reason, or at least when the captain was quoted in newspapers, because we had to save George. But the reality is George was scapegoat and the boat was just like a paper mache bath. And also it wasn't a shock, because in a week or two when we all in the Canary Islands leading up to it, everybody was just thinking, like, this boat seems, it doesn't seem, the night before.

one of the guys Howard walked around the boat and was like, I thought these particular holes were going to be sealed. So he just went round with a pool noodle and cut out pool noodles and put them into the holes and then put ⁓ sealant around it. Particularly, so when you're in an ocean rowing boat, you have a hatch and you shut the hatch, but instead, they cut out squares to ⁓ create the entrance to the cabin. And then rather than attaching a

Hatch kept the squares sort of drill the hole through it with a piece of string so you could slot the square in and out as the door which is not waterproof and the the waves were coming over the boat and the back cabins were getting filled with water and the guys in the back cabins would say that they would hear a bang and then water would pour through the sides of the ⁓ of the so-called door and they just like sleeping in water the sloshing around and 48 hours that is a long long

time to be very cold and very wet.

Sam Penny (16:31)
So 48

hours, you get rescued. Obviously that mission is abandoned. How did you feel after that?

MARK (16:40)
⁓ Well, just very motivated to go again. ⁓ I was in the helicopter on the way back to land and already saying to Stu, like, we're going again, or at least in my head I was. And we're going to do it ourselves, we're to do it properly next time. And I guess the part of the reason that it was so easy to deal with is because it was so clear that we should have got off. This was a massive mistake. ⁓ There was no option to go on.

let's get off, let's restart. And we're going to come to my second one, but my second one, there was like a load of ambiguity whether it was the right decision or not to get off. And that one ate me alive, which is where the sort of mental health problems come from. But that first one was, you know, let's just do it again. And very quickly we were arranging a team, four friends this time, me, Stu, one of the other guys from the boat.

who then dropped out, so you're going to do it as a three, who was a friend from school. yeah, so despite the fact that you said the word humiliating in the intro, this one was way more public with all the newspapers that said Captain Calamity and quoted something I said on Facebook. So if you Googled it, I came up and it was very public. Whereas the second one, I have no publicity.

but it felt far more crushing and humiliating despite that.

Sam Penny (18:11)
Okay, so let's talk about that second one. You set off, again, there's three of you or four of you.

MARK (18:19)
two of us this time. in the first one, so in between then, in between the first failure and the eventual start, my, you know, getting to the start line is a very difficult process. we eventually ended up not with either of my friends from school, going with the woman who I'd met through the race. So I entered the race this time and they put me in contact with her when eventually it looked like I needed somebody and she needed somebody.

⁓ And yeah, we set off again and have that same moment of relief and we got three days this time and we're having this problem with our battery. So you have solar panel and it charges the battery. The battery wasn't really charging, which meant that going into night we had already very low power and we're having to turn off a lot of things, including something that makes us visible on big ships radar and without it we're invisible. So

That's fine, because one of us is rowing at night and one of us is sleeping and we're taking it in turns. And as long as the person keeps their eyes scanning the horizon, if we do see a ship, we have enough power to turn on our AIS, radar identifier thing, for few minutes or however long necessary. But then my friend was very much struggling and that's her story to tell. But we eventually called for somebody to come pick her up. And then I'm left with the decision of whether or not to go on by myself.

or get off when she gets off. And going on by myself with a faulty battery and possibly turning the AIS off at night when I'm asleep with nobody on deck, and then I wouldn't know if a ship had appeared on the horizon or not, seemed like crossing the line from objective risk to reckless risk. And when I explain it like that, everybody says, well, getting off is a sensible decision. But was I snatching at a face-saving excuse? Really, the battery wasn't that big an issue.

It might have been something as simple as it was just cloudy and we were too far north and then a few days when we got further south it was going to sort itself out. What's the right decision? And I got off when she got off and I didn't leave the decision behind. It ate me alive and I just had this idea of myself as this adventurer and I wasn't living up to it and ⁓ I felt utterly, utterly pathetic and humiliated and.

Every time somebody rowed The Atlantic and it appeared in the newspaper, just imagine my friends are reading it thinking, they must think, another one? God, really, Atlantic's easy. Mark's done it twice, he's failed. And ⁓ somebody even floated across The Atlantic in a barrel a few weeks later, and I was like, that is salt in the wound. ⁓ I just felt was...

Sam Penny (21:06)
So what

was it that really hurt you the most about that second failure?

MARK (21:14)
It just felt like I'd voluntarily given up. Like, you know, there's a documentary on YouTube of people doing it and they have somebody who's super seasick and he has to get off and they're all considering getting off with him and two of them stay and do it in a four person boat too and even though it takes them twice as long, they do it. And I got off, you know, the people that make these decisions, they stick to it and I quit. So what does that say about me? And it's felt, I guess,

It's difficult to my finger on because it was more like a sense of worth rather than like, regret X, although I did regret getting off. It's more like I am worthless. ⁓ Actually, much of myself worth is linked up in becoming an adventurer. And part of the problem was on that first failed attempt, we were going to try set the record. And I had not considered that initially.

I didn't know that, you know, I'm not a rower. I'm not a particularly gifted athlete. ⁓ And I just wanted to believe my own sponsorship pitch or just got caught up in the idea or thought that we could do it. And therefore it became about becoming a world record, setter. And that second one, me and the woman were going to be mixed pair world record. And so, so much of my self-worth had become utterly binary, like become an adventurer.

by finishing The Atlantic, by setting the world record. And ⁓ I felt just so worthless and ⁓ very rudderless for a long time, a long, time.

Sam Penny (22:49)
You mentioned

⁓ just before, just imagining what your friends must be thinking when they see someone had just rode the Atlantic. What were your friends and family actually saying to you?

MARK (23:03)
Well, mean, so, you know, in the context of the row and stuff, like, supportive or interested, although sometimes people are like, what happened? You know, because like I put a Facebook thing out, oh, it didn't happen this year. The battery was going out and people could see through it. And sort of annoyed me that at this point, it's like people were like, like I was some kind of circus freak. But what actually happened? I'm like, you know, but generally nothing. I mean, this is the thing.

I've imagined all of my friends constantly thinking about how terrible I was at ocean rowing. And my friends are probably thinking not about me at all. Nobody cares about you as much as you care about you, except for maybe your mum and dad. yeah, the reality was they probably weren't. They were just getting on with their lives. They probably weren't even in the right space on the internet to be continuously exposed to the people rowing the Atlantic. ⁓

Their algorithms were throwing that off. They didn't care. And if they did...

Sam Penny (24:07)
Isn't it interesting,

Mark, that we put so much ⁓ attention and energy into thinking what other people are thinking about us, when like you say, in actual fact, they're not thinking about us at all, because everyone has their own life to live.

MARK (24:24)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was very much a projection. I felt worthless, so I sort of assumed they felt worthless, but they thought I was worthless. But I did have this one, I couldn't be bothered to, I had four friends who I saw in Hong Kong all the time, and I couldn't be bothered to tell the story four times. So I arranged like a, can drink brunch. I was like, I'm just going to tell you the story, it's going to take 20 minutes, and then we can just get on with the brunch. And it took like five hours, and that was very therapeutic.

It was like, chapter one! The brunch had shut down and everybody had left and they let us stay there. Yeah, was great. ⁓

Sam Penny (24:52)
Ha ha.

So

what were your parents reaction to it?

MARK (25:04)
Very supportive and caring and all the things you would expect of great parents. And indignant on my behalf when I needed to be and whatnot. So everything you can expect. mean, my parents just being so supportive throughout. It's been quite incredible. But yeah, I was on the other side of the world. And it also is like, not like I was walking around in a state of depression, like unable to get out bed.

It's like sort of like a, I'm having fun and the fun moments and it was sort of like a background noise of just negativity that I was telling myself. And also like a little bit of a loss of drive. I said at a time a few times, I wanted to want to do something again. It's not even like I wanted to row the Atlanta again. I wanted to want to row the Atlanta again, but I was like, I just don't even want to do it.

And I had such a specific purpose of trade to religion, to raise money for the Atlantic, whatever. And I'd lost that a little bit as well.

Sam Penny (26:13)
I also saw Mark that you questioned yourself whether you're a person who does adventure or you're an adventurer. Explain that to me.

MARK (26:21)
Well, yeah, mean, my idea had been bastardised by the world records, right? Well, I'm not an adventurer because I can't do it fast or not. And I know people do it other ways, but I just don't want to do it that way. It doesn't seem like worth my time. ⁓ you know, adventures have got to be whether you're doing fast or slow or whatever, you've got to be resilient and stoic and laugh in the face of adversity and camaraderie.

and I had not lived up to any of those ideals by quitting and whatnot. So was I an adventurer? But yeah, this was the big corner I turned for the Northwest Passage. So in the buildup to the Northwest Passage, because I knew I, well, so to go back, before rowing the Atlantic the first time, just becoming obsessed with the field and getting excited, I was giggling all sorts and I saw somebody wanted to row the Northwest Passage.

the first people to do it by human power. ⁓ And a lot of people have been trying, there'd already been a rowing attempt and whatnot. And that caught my imagination. So I knew before I was going to the Atlantic that this was going to be a stepping stone to a much bigger, much harder ⁓ world first attempt in the Arctic. And... ⁓

Sam Penny (27:41)
So what was it about

that spark then that really ignited your sense of adventure?

MARK (27:48)
Well, even before I went to the North West, the Atlantic, I actually called the guy who had posted about the rowing and said, I'm going to come with you. I'm just about to set the world record for rowing the Atlantic. So you know I'm good. And then I'm call you afterwards and we're going to get going. And I was involved with him for a long time and that was, I'm sure we will come to it, the worst moments of my life with him. And I think part of it was,

that extrinsic world record, world first part, where at the time I was becoming more more focused on those extrinsic goals. And this seemed like a serious world first, you know, because you can do any old world first really, like you can pick two points on either side of the ocean and say I'm the first to go between here and here. And like 16 people have rowed the North Atlantic solo, or maybe it's 17 or 18 now, something like.

up to 20. And still Guinness is giving world firsts for the first person to go from Boston to the Silly Isles, the first person to go from New York to London, the first person to go from Newfoundland to Scotland. And they're all amazing adventures and unbelievably hardcore. my so I don't want to sound like I'm diminishing them, but I am diminishing the idea that they are that they are world firsts. Guinness just give out, you know.

A lot of adventurous, and again, this is a bit of a joke. But the beginning of the Northwest Passage, it was legitimized as a real first, perhaps the last first of those kind of polar history, golden age of polar exploration in the 19th century, because it wasn't recently contrived. The first people to try and find it were sent by Henry VIII and then Elizabeth I, and then in the 19th century, Franklin and Ross, and then Amundsen, the most famous

of all the Arctic explorers, he was the first person to make it through and then the first people to sail through and then Matt said, he was the first people to get through by human power and people have been trying it. So I wouldn't be the first to do it and the first to try it. And that was like a real, this is a real first. And if I did this, I'd be a serious adventurer. So I think I was drawn by that extrinsic bit a lot. It was also all the history that I'd read, know, I was,

I was obsessed with like Shackleton and Amundsen and Scott reading those books. I guess we talked earlier about my upbringing. I definitely read those when I was younger. So it all came together in this like, wow, this is cool. There's something left where I can be like my heroes.

Sam Penny (30:28)
So this spark obviously ignites before you even thought about rowing across the Atlantic. You have two failed attempts in the Atlantic. The period between the Atlantic attempts and your Northwest Passage, describe that period of time.

MARK (30:48)
So ⁓ these include the worst moments of my life ⁓ and the same mistake again. So for a year or two, I felt lost after the Atlantic. ⁓ And then the guy who I'd originally called about doing the Norfolk's Passage, then put into motion in say late 2019 that he's going to do it, and he needs a team and he's a pay per place. ⁓

He needs money, et cetera. But I knew him a little bit. He lives in Scotland. He helped with the second Atlantic row. My parents had been down to his house a few times to pick some kit up and things. he was so trustworthy, I thought. And a lot of money, a lot of money, £50,000 per seat. And obviously then COVID happened.

So it's getting delayed. So there's a lot of delays and external factors. But I was like, even though I don't want to, want to do something again, I'm self-aware enough that if I don't, I will miss this opportunity and regret this. So sometimes you have to feel ready to do something and sometimes you do something and it makes you feel ready. You know, can't just, the action of getting out of the house is the one that makes you feel like you want to get out of the house. So signing up put me back on an even keel.

But equally, didn't want to, there was even a higher risk of failure and I didn't want to go back to the place that I felt before. So I started reaching out to some psychologists equally because I knew I wanted to write a book and I was going to like weave in, like, I don't know, which I have done now. It's called There Will Be Headwinds and you know, it's not like a self-help book, every, there's eight chapters out of 30 something which are interviews with psychologists I did during this period.

And it was going to be about resilience with a bit of teamwork and whatnot. And I thought that the resilient psychologist would tell me it's about being tough. This is how you get tougher. But the first one said, well, what is it that you mean by being an adventurer? And maybe you're measuring it wrong. And why do you want to be an adventurer? And what is it that you enjoy? And asking all of these questions gave me this framework. They said there's only three reasons people do sport.

or narratives people tell themselves for the reason they're doing sport. Performance, relationships, and discovery. So are you doing it because performance, I want to win, and that's binary, you win two nil and you win, you lose two nil and you lose, and there's nothing else in between. Relationships, are you doing it because the team spirit or people do sport because they can do it with their dad or whatever. Or discovery, is it because of the new experiences it exposes you to?

And it was like a light bulb. was like, yeah, I do this because these are relationships. I would never do this by myself. I've always said I would like to get to the side and have a beer in a week, a year, in 10 years and say, we did something special together. And discovery, I wouldn't want to row 3,000 miles backwards and forwards along Hong Kong Harbor. I want to be immersed in nature, the waves and...

experiences that we had in those two or three days in the first failed Atlantic attempts were powerful and amazing and the swells and the shadow from the moon was just spectacular. But performance, somebody had once said, I want to set a world record. Can you come with me? And suddenly I was like, I want to be a world record setting adventurer. And my worth and my definition of adventure success had become completely binary. So I started trying to like do

retrained my mind. In Covid in Hong Kong, there was no real lockdown, there was big travel restrictions, but you could do whatever you wanted within certain rules in the region itself. So a friend and I went kayaking and it was no record. It was new to me though. And the discovery element to going to these islands called Double Haven in a remote part of Hong Kong was amazing. And like,

There was one point where there was this huge wave swirl, like rolling in and I was finding it really challenging and I was having to focus and there was cliffs next to us. So if I did go over, I would have been in real trouble. And I was shouting to myself like, concentrate, concentrate, try and stay upright. And we came around the headland and into protected water. And that was like the moment where I was like, this is adventure. And like, it was like, it was like.

It was like a smoke that I'd inhaled. was just coming out of my nose and ears and that left me. And, you know, it continued to be like a process, but that was one of those big moments. And equally, like I did a lot of ultra running, I did a trail running and a bit of ultra running in Hong Kong, because there's a huge community there of ultra runners. Massive one of them. And my job was to cover them for the newspaper. And the good thing about that is that I have literally no hope in the world.

of being a good ultra runner. I'm built like a rugby player. When I did this 100K, I set myself a goal of doing it in under 24 hours. The winners are doing it in 10 hours. So that's contexted. So that's like, can't be like, want to be a world record setter because it would just be ridiculous. So that was like a relief because there's only one way to engage in it and that was sort of on my own terms. And bit by bit I learned all of

Sam Penny (36:14)
You

MARK (36:39)
relearned all of the things I loved. And when I went to the Arctic, I sort of thought that initially this was supposed to be a padding against any inevitable failure because I could say, well, I really want us to be a world first setting adventurer. But if I'm not, at least I can say I had an experience of immersion nature or I made new camaraderie with my friends. But the irony was, you know, I'm now a motivational speaker and this is basically the crux of my point is I

If you let go of the outcome and focus on loving the pursuit, then the outcome looks after itself. I'm going to go tomorrow and the next day and the next day and the next day because it immerses me in nature. Even if the out, the end is unlikely or likely it's irrelevant. And I'm going to push myself tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow, not because it draws me closer to the end, but because it draws me closer to my teammates. And then day after day, you get closer to the end and you're like, Hey, I'm here.

Whereas if you're only focused on the end and today's going slowly, it's just frustrating and you eventually burn out because you're like, well, this is an obstacle between me and the end. Whereas if what you want is to be close to your teammates, you're like, well, here I am. So ⁓ yeah, it's ironic.

Sam Penny (37:52)
So you.

Yeah, so you mentioned adventure in Hong Kong, kayaking came around the headland into the calmer waters. And we don't need to set off and cross polar ice caps or sail around Antarctica to experience adventure. We can all experience adventure for all the listeners in our own individual way. And adventure is just something quite often just

going out, stepping outside your comfort zone, going out and experiencing new experiences. And is that what that moment was for you? Just something new, something exhilarating, exciting?

MARK (38:38)
Yeah, exactly. was just so that that initial framework that I was given about performance have now sort of put it into my own language. There's only four intrinsic motivations, challenge, experience, relationships or causes. Are you doing it to challenge yourself, which I suppose is a sort of an intrinsic version of performance, because you can say I challenged myself whether or not you win, challenge, experience, relationships or causes might be raising money for charity.

And ⁓ I can't think of a motivation that doesn't fall under one of those four head, those things. And when you have intrinsic motivations, just fall, I mean, that is what adventure is. Adventure is not about where you start and finish. It's everything that happens in between. And for me, it was challenging. The experience was unique because it was a place Hong Kong I hadn't been to and beautiful. Hong Kong is, the coastline is very remote and amazing, unlike what you'd expect. I did it with this guy I just met and we became friends.

I wasn't doing it for a cause. so it just, all of these internal loves of adventure, it was such a wonderful experience and there was no binary goal. There was like, know, maybe now if I went back and did it, now that, you that was my first day essentially kayaking. I went and did 40 kilometers along the remote coastline and it was very difficult. And maybe now I'd be like, you know, because I've...

done this bigger thing. Or maybe I'd be more scared because I'd be like, this is crazy to be out here with a lack of experience. Maybe I didn't have the information I needed to realize how much danger I was in. yeah, was just about doing it. now that I give talks and I have workshops, I've come up with these frameworks and I have the language to explain it. ⁓ And at the time I didn't. So it's difficult to know what

Sam Penny (40:11)
Yeah

MARK (40:34)
rejecting back in terms of what exactly I thought, but I knew what I felt. And what I felt was, this is it. And whether I knew what it was, it was just like wonderful and amazing and beautiful.

Sam Penny (40:46)
So you're in Hong Kong, it's 2020, 2021 when you're experiencing these moments on the coastline in your kayak, two years before you set off to do the Northwest Passage. How did you prepare for such a massive task?

MARK (41:04)
⁓ so at this point I'm still planning on rowing it and it's with the guy who I paid 50,000 pounds to. and, ⁓ you know, the first time I tried to row the Atlantic was the fittest I've ever been. And I could crack out a time on a rowing machine, which like still boggles my mind. And, ⁓ the second time I did a much more like big aerobic base fitness, like.

slow, low heart rates that would be sustained for hours. Admittedly, even the first time I could do 20 kilometers, if anybody understands splits on a rowing machine. I could do 20 kilometers at a split of 159 on a rowing machine. And the second time I was like resilient in a physical sense, like I was making sure strong, flexible hips and my posterior chain was strong and I could row forever. The third time, I still took my fitness very seriously, but like a huge element of uncertainty

adversity, ⁓ resilience, mental training. So I would row out onto the backside of an island called Llama, which in the winter is very exposed to these big swells by myself, like cracking on with it. And you know, I probably could have got my heart rate higher if I'd sat on the rowing machine in the gym, but it was more about like staying calm. During the kayaking, was like, it was really putting me out of my comfort zone because I'm not a kayaker. And there was one big crossing we did, which was through an amber rainstorm.

So the visibility was like nil and we knew there were ships everywhere and it was across this very, very busy shipping, about five different shipping channels. And it was all about staying calm. And I just built up this like iron mind. And even more specifically than just general uncertainty, I was anticipating stuff I might have in the Northwest Passage like ⁓ not having a clear finish line.

you know, if you do 100K, you know, right, if I just do 10 more, it's going to be over. But in the north west passage, you might be a headwind or ice that means that you don't know if you're to land in the next hour or five hours. So I went out in a rowing boat from 8pm to 8am, so overnight by myself. So I had boredom, nothing to stimulate myself on my own and did a four kilometer strip backwards and forwards between these places called Deepwater Bay and Repulse Bay, I think. And ⁓

I was passing the boathouse every half an hour so could get out if I wanted to. And because it was 12 hours instead of a distance, no matter how much I pushed myself, the end didn't come any closer because it was 12 hours. And in that 12 hours, if I covered 120K or 70K, it was going to be 12 hours. So I was practicing like pushing myself without making the end come any closer. So in the Norfolk passage I could say, well, know.

I don't know if the end's going to be soon or later, but I gotta learn how to push myself without that like character knowing that I'm going to get out in half an hour. So, and I build up this mind. in addition to like, resilience is really about like re-examining why you like something. And if you know why, then the how becomes easy. It's also about actually becoming tough and becoming like really calm and uncertainty and making sure that I...

If I ever found myself in an uncertain situation like I did in the second Atlantic where it wasn't about rowing, it was about sitting there and trying to weigh up decisions about batteries and stuff, I knew that I would be able to be calm. And I thought I'd get to a place where I could grin and bear it and be like, hey, I'm tough now. But I got to a place where I'd enjoy it. And like when situations escalated, I was like, here we go, this is what we're here for. And you just like get the best time of your life.

So yeah, mean, by the time I got to the Northwest Passage, I just, the first night was like chaos and went really badly. And I was like, this is so much fun. Which is just like crazy to think that from a few years ago. But yeah, I mean, obviously I made a very late switch to kayaking and I really had to.

Sam Penny (45:02)
So.

MARK (45:12)
I'll try my best to get up to speed with kayaking.

Sam Penny (45:15)
So you pay a guy 50,000 pounds, which is in Australian money, it's a bucket load of cash. You could probably buy a house for that. And you've been getting ready, preparing for quite a long time to row the Northwest Passage. How did that all fall apart?

MARK (45:20)
Yeah, yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So yeah, I got about 30,000 pounds in sponsorship. So 20,000 pounds of my own money, just before anybody thinks I'm that loaded. But 20,000 pounds was still a lot of money. And it was delayed because of COVID, and that is true. But there was also a lot of other lack of progress points that a lot of the crew were getting worried about. But we had time because COVID had delayed it. Then it was delayed again. And then it was talk of rowing the boat from, well, we're going to delay again.

but we're going to row from Iceland to the start of the Northwest Passage. So at least we're doing something this year. And at that point I really like had to right, what have I learned? I'm not here for the external first. I'm here for a immersion in nature camaraderie. This is going to be amazing. I'm going to go around the tip of Greenland and stuff like that. And then like there just wasn't replies and try to think of what I can say because within my book, you know, there's a lot of, so eventually like,

People were becoming worried about the lack of action, lack of communication, what's happening, the boat doesn't seem ready. It's been another year and we're delaying again and this Iceland thing's not happening. And there were four of us who were sort of the most vocal. I'm not even sure if that's true. I mean, I was one of the most vocal. I don't know about the others. But we were also one of the only four who actually paid 50K each. So other people who weren't being vocal had paid as little as 5K. People were struggling to get to this enormous

moment and so we were in our rights to maybe wonder and eventually I was sick of also getting phone calls from other people and saying what's happening you know the guy the best he's from Scotland can you ask him I was like I've just had a kid I can't deal with all of this so I made a whatsapp group without the captain let what's happening what do we want to do we've got to you know have a meeting with him or game on the zoom call or whatever

And obviously he's very angry and it's a very, there's a of emotions in this WhatsApp group and somebody tells the captain about the WhatsApp group and tells him that I've started it. So we get this horrific message, each of the of us, and everybody else gets a message to say, Mark is like a man who's trying to drown us. And as soon as he let, we get rid of him, it'll be like a second breath of fresh air. The reason that we haven't been able to go is because

we haven't got enough money and the reason we don't have enough money is because nobody's paying up and the reason nobody's paying up is because Mark's in the background like undermining us. At this point he has maybe like four or 500,000 pounds. So even if I wanted to undermine him, I couldn't. There's nothing like the power dynamic there. It doesn't matter how much I whined. So he gave us an ultimatum, like shut up and get on board or get off the team and I'll do my best to pay you back, which is quite a vague promise.

and that vague promise has never been given back. And I thought to myself, what are all the things I've learned in my interviews about resilience and how am I going to exhibit them now? Focus on what you could control. Right, well, my destiny as an adventurer is in my hands. If I want to be an adventurer, I can go on an adventure. I actually do own two kayaks now. So I'm going to go to my parents' house where I keep the kayaks. I'm going to get them.

I'm going to go on an adventure, so I'm in control. An adventure is about being immersed in nature, doing what you love. So I'm going to go to the West Coast, I'm going to kayak along the coast, I'm going to hike up these minrows. I felt back in control and it was all very emotional and it was difficult to deal with, but I was trying to put into action what I put, you know, all of these ⁓ lessons. I go into my house, my wife's in the car with the baby, I quickly get the kayaking stuff ready. Just as I leave the house, that's when the text comes through calling me a man who's trying to drown them.

and I slam the door shut like in fright and I lock myself out. My parents are away for a few weeks. I can see the kayaking stuff from the other side of the door. And it's like a metaphor, like I've lost control now. I can't do anything. And I know I'm not getting the money back. And I'm coming back to the car and I'm crying. And my wife is trying to say what's wrong, what's wrong. Having just given birth, expecting me within a right to be like a pillar of like support.

and I'm a role model to my kid and money is no longer something I can accumulate in the future and it's for what I want to do. I just lost my kid two years of private school education to this guy. ⁓ That was the worst moment of my life and it's years ago now and I went on to achieve what I wanted to achieve and I'm welling up as I speak because it was so, the vitriol was so horrific.

Sam Penny (50:16)
Hehehe.

MARK (50:23)
You know, I didn't reply for a while and I said, I'm sorry. And I came back on the team and then I said, I can't be on the team and went off. And I said to him at that point, if you just give me 12,000 pounds back out of the 50, I'll recall it. And he said, okay, but then that's never happened. And I knew that our rival team, was this kayaking team. They wanted to row the kayak the Northwest passage and I knew they needed an extra person. So I called them and I was like, this has happened. You need an extra person. Can I come? So it's like a matter of months.

to go, I tried to learn how to kayak properly and went to the Northwest Passage. That's the first time I met them because they're all American. yeah, then completed the Northwest Passage. The end.

Sam Penny (51:02)
So, ⁓ the end. Now,

so the moment when they said, yes, you can join us. How did that make you feel after all the the emotional pain that this guy had caused you?

MARK (51:22)
Well, you know, again, there was no like movie moment. It's like a process. For one thing, I convinced one of the other guys who was being blamed to come and join us too. And he, having had no kayaking experience and me having had limited kayaking experience, was like, wanted way more information and wanted to do some kayaking and trade and whatnot. And so there was like, yeah, we're accepted, but we've got to go and see if this is something that Jack wants to do.

And then Jack actually joined them in America for some training, having then been accepted on. And then Jack, he just, he left himself too little time to get up to speed. And the fact that he even took the leap is incredibly brave. And, so then it was like, he's not coming and I want to do this from camaraderie and relationships. And I've just lost one of my closest mates. He's not coming. And I've had to do it with three strangers. Am I making the same mistake? And

I even asked Jack, like, do you think we should row around the UK instead? And he was to his eternal credit said, go for it. And even helped with the food and stuff long after he wasn't in the team. So, you know, there was a process and a lot of nerves and then like, it was so hard not to become extrinsic again because I was like, I'm now in a race against a man who I've like, livid with, who for ruining, for taking all my money.

I don't want this to be a race, I want to immerse myself in nature. So it was a constant second guessing about whether or not I've made the right choice and whatnot. So ⁓ it was difficult, but it was also a relief to know that I'm going. And I guess the final relief was they had tried the year before, they'd gone in three solo kayaks, they hadn't got as far as they'd expected. They thought if they went in doubles, then they could have sort of of the issues they had. That's why they had an extra spot.

But one of the big problems they had was they started way too late because the airplanes don't go regularly and they were just relying on the same airplane. So I still felt like it was, I was like, unless they sort this issue and I'm coming at the last minute I'm a newbie, they've all organized it. And I spent a long time trying to find an airplane until I found one that went from central Canada that delivered fruit to the Inuit village like every two weeks and got a reasonable price to get our kayaks on there. And that was the moment I was like,

Now there is, I am definitely going to the Arctic. I know the boat, I know the moment will come. That was a huge moment. And I still think it was my single biggest contribution to the expedition was finding a fruit plane that got us there in time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I can't remember like a specific moment. It was like nerves, I had a kid and there was guilt and whatnot. And yeah, and then my wife got pregnant again, which was wonderful and also more guilt reducing.

Sam Penny (53:50)
You

you do kind of need the kayaks there don't you? ⁓

So,

firstly explain to listeners what exactly is the Northwest Passage.

MARK (54:20)
So it's the Arctic route that links the Atlantic to the Pacific. If you want to get from the Atlantic to the Pacific, can go under South America through the Drake Passage, you can go through the Panama Canal, or you can go over Canada and Alaska, which is obviously the least practical, most miserable ice-driven route. And ⁓ Britain in particular thought if we could find it, then it's a shortcut to Asia. ⁓ And it's not a shortcut to Asia because it's full of ice, although it is becoming a shortcut to Asia because the ice has disappeared in 50 years.

people would just go straight over the North Pole rather than around South America. ⁓ as it opens up, people thought, well, maybe the final chapter of this epic thing is who can get through in a human power. So rowers, kayakers, different various kinds of boats. And even as we went, was us in two tandem kayaks, the Arctic Cowboys with West Jeff and Eileen. There was

Two guys coming from the other end, Matty and Adam, in two single rowing boats. And then there was the other team that I'd previously been with who did make it to the start line in an eight person ocean rowing boat that you can sleep and row on at the same time, like the ones you cross the Atlantic in.

Sam Penny (55:34)
So tell me, you've had a lot of setbacks along the way. Your Atlantic attempts, this guy taking your money. You finally get to the start of the Northwest Passage. Tell me about that very first moment when you're standing there ready to leave the shore.

MARK (55:57)
So yeah, we got there for about five days, setting up, camping, packing. And then we got, the sea is still frozen for about 40 miles around us. So saw our Inuit contact Titus, his friend Steve put us on the back of air on a sledge called a Kumatuk and pulled us and the clients across the ice to the edge of the ice to start. And that, that was the moment where I'm like, ⁓ I can't believe.

I'm starting the North West Passage, like my normal state of mind had become, I'm trying to do this, I'm trying to do this, and now I'm actually doing it. ⁓ It's difficult to describe. ⁓

Sam Penny (56:40)
Was it a feeling of calm? Is it anxiety? ⁓ Excitement?

MARK (56:44)
It

was like I was trying to take in the moment. I was almost like trying to say, this is the moment I'm starting because there's still so much going on and there's still so much to go. And I was trying not to think about the end and refocus on the adventure and yeah, excitement. And I really, really liked West Jeff and Eileen having only met them for five days. And that comic talk ride was like eight hours of like bumping up and down, miserable. And it was just good fun to like do that together.

Yeah, I mean, I don't have like a pithy and then, ⁓ you know, it was just trying to be present.

Sam Penny (57:25)
So now you make it sound like it's going out for a couple of days, but this was actually 103 day adventure in the Arctic. What was the average day like?

MARK (57:39)
So it was supposed to be a 60 day adventure. You really only have July and August. And all the other people who tried had got to about halfway in 60 days. And then there's an airport and they say, well, we can't take 120 days because where you September and October, the winter gets too bad there. Like you could go to September if you're close to the end, but so what are you going to get out? You know, once you commit past the airport, that's your

Exit point. So we have 60 days really. And there wasn't an average day. In fact, West, our captain, would like bristle at the idea of averages. He got asked a lot about it in the press and the buildup. And sometimes we discussed it as well and he would always push back. Like having an average would frustrate you because you're supposed to average 30 miles a day or whatever. But like you could have three days of nothing, then two days of 40 miles and four days of nothing. And then as the weather got bad and sure enough,

we set out and we got absolutely humbled by the ice. We just had no experience in the ice and it just kicked our ass. And we took 14 hours to try and get back to where we started. And we made zero miles after 14 hours of me falling through the ice and us getting trapped by the ice and Jeff falling out of the kayak. But as we got into the cabin, because it was a little cabin right where we started, Eileen turned to us and was like, we are.

explorers and we all like dived into this hug and I was like she gets it it's about the adventure it's not about like the end and that was a fantastic 14 hours but there was a big the big red flag was just how much slower my kayak was on the other kayak which is obviously me not Jeff because he's like a record-setting kayaker and the West and Eileen in their kayak actually getting cold going at my speed you know it was like they couldn't

go my speed, like as soon as they put their paddles in the water, no matter how little they pushed, they pulled ahead and then they have to wait. And everybody was worried about that, including myself. In other ways, I then performed very well and helped people and myself when we fell through the ice. So when they got out, everybody was sort of conflicting. know, actually turned to me and was like, wow, you are resilient. And I was like, that word is, you don't know what you just validated there because I've been working on that for years.

And then Jeff said, you really came alive in the third quarter there. And that meant a lot to me. And then I sped up quickly over the next few days with some coaching from Eileen. And also what I think was we rushed the packing, so the boats were really overloaded and performing at our absolute worst. Obviously everybody else was in bad performing boats, but any discrepancy between us was exaggerated because I was the least experienced kayaker.

Sam Penny (1:00:08)
You

MARK (1:00:34)
So there wasn't really an average day. By the second half, when there was nighttime imposed to schedule on us, up at 4 a.m., on the water at seven, kayak for 10 hours, off the water at five, in bed by dark, most whenever the weather allowed, which was getting less and less frequent. So, you know, first six days out of halfway, 40 miles every day, 10 hours, 10 hours, 10 hours, 10 hours. Then the next 10 days, we only kayak twice because the weather was getting bad. Having said that, even within that,

The thing I found most frustrating was how long it took some people to get ready. So up at four, on the water by seven, or almost always on the water by 8.30. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Sam Penny (1:01:12)
I know that feeling. ⁓ So

in this 103 days, what was the hardest moment that you faced in the whole expedition?

MARK (1:01:22)
Good question.

⁓ I'm trying to think because it's a difficult question to ask because by that point, like, I had my intrinsic motivations. I wanted to be challenged, particularly camaraderie, let's say camaraderie. Like, ⁓ what is camaraderie? That kind of relationship. ⁓ You can't build it out of thin air. You need to build it through adversity. You know, ⁓ my catchphrase for my...

motivational talks now is like friendship is formed in good times, camaraderie is formed in tough times. So you get excited about tough times. So now it was like, what are the toughest times? Well, when was, when the times are good, I was like, here we go, we're getting closer to the end. And when the times are bad, I was like, here we go, we're building camaraderie, dig deep for teammates, they're digging deep for me. So in some ways, the worst times are the best times. But there were a few specific moments that were tough.

There was one time where the sea was coming in from the side and for some reason, even though my kayaking was improving, I couldn't deal with it. I couldn't generate any speed and everybody was getting cold and frustrated and worried. And that was a lot for everybody. It must have been miserable for everybody. And there was another day where I was absolutely cooked.

and I was like 30 miles, I was pushing myself so hard and I was close to crying by the end. I thought it was a speed that I couldn't maintain for an hour, but I felt under so much pressure to up my speed from the previous day's side waves. I pushed myself too hard. I was like, I'm just going to go as hard as I can for an hour and then just go back to a more maintainable space just to try and claw back some kind of redemption. And I did that for 30 miles and I couldn't believe that I managed to maintain that pace. And I was close to tears.

There was another time where I was just so hungry and it just hit me like that. I was just kayaking along at five miles an hour and then I went to two miles an hour and nothing I could do, could lift it. And I was like, I want to go home. Nobody else is trying. How come me being tired means that we go two miles an hour? What the hell is Eileen doing back there? You know, all of these like negative thoughts. And as soon as I ate, I was like, oh, I'm not depressed. I'm just really hungry. But that was like...

you know, that long two minute story is actually like two hours of being hungry in a way that I couldn't have possibly imagined before. so those are the hardest moments. And then generally, more generally, not everybody in the team got along equally. I got along with everybody and I became the middle man and the peacemaker between fractions. And I found that a huge burden. And I was often having to...

Yeah, I know it's tough, know, that must be tough. And I just wanted to tell people sometimes like grow up. You know, like we're all tired. so that was definitely the most difficult thing, is having to manage other people's relationships. And everybody's aware of that. And they always acknowledge that I was very good at keeping everybody together, which is nice, but equally like, frustrating

Sam Penny (1:04:43)
So was there a moment at all through this where you or the group were thinking about giving up?

MARK (1:04:52)
So yeah, when we got to halfway, it was about 56 days. And as I say, everybody gets to halfway at 60 days and then they have to give up because you can't go on. And everybody we spoke to said, comes quickly here, winter comes quickly here. It's like a meme that everybody knew about us. So, you know, we should have and could have stopped, but we just, we didn't have like a specific conversation, but we spoke about like what the conditions could be like in the Beaufort Sea come winter. But you know, we were like, let's just wait and see and get there.

And you know, different conversations are perceived differently. I never, I thought that we all were like, we're never going to give up unless we run out of food. And obviously we've got to discuss what happens if we run out of food or like we might pass the time thinking about what do we think life's going to be like in the Beaufort Sea if we get there in October and stuff like that. But nobody was ever thinking of just let's not find out, let's pull the plug before we get there. But I've seen other interviews from.

teammates where they said, I never thought about giving up, but other people were discussing it. I thought, who the hell was discussing it? It wasn't me, it wasn't Eileen. yeah, yeah. So people have different perceptions. I really don't, but I think this is the thing, no matter what tensions we had, we have one thing in common and that was this group was utterly determined to do every inch of the Northwest Passage and like all in their own way for different reasons. Like

Sam Penny (1:05:55)
And you're the mediator, so you would have known everything.

MARK (1:06:19)
and for the same reasons at the same time. Eileen is just a show determined and a super proud person. like, even once we finished in Northwest Passage, we were supposed to do an under 160 miles to get to Inuit Village. That was frozen over and we're running out of food because it was taking 103 days instead of 60. So we went to an airport, there was like a abandoned airfield that was 50 miles away. she felt like that.

she felt that very keenly as though she was quitting. And was like, no, you know, which is obviously ridiculous, but that's how proud and determined she was. Like Jeff had completely severed his Achilles and had two hernias, but would never let any of us down. And because it's a tandem kayak, he couldn't get out because if one person, you can't do a tandem kayak on your own. So he was determined to finish for all of us. West.

Sam Penny (1:07:15)
Wow.

MARK (1:07:17)
loves being outside, loves doing the adventure. I don't think it ever crossed West of mine that we wouldn't finish. He's the captain and yeah, he just thought we would. ⁓ And then I have my own reasons, camaraderie, immersion in nature, challenge and so on. Which when you get like 80 miles to the end and you think that it might not happen because you're running out of food and weather, it does become quite a lot about finishing, if you know what I mean. But you're trying to focus on your intrinsic nature. ⁓

Sam Penny (1:07:28)
Where?

MARK (1:07:46)
you know, just this group of people were utterly, utterly determined. And I guess this is the difference between camaraderie and friendship, you know, maybe not everybody's equally good friends and they won't have a beer in a week or a year or not, but everybody trusts each other to the nth degree. Everybody knows that everybody there is determined and no matter what disagreements we have or what different memories we have or perspectives on this conflict or that approach or what we should have done here.

everybody wanted to finish, everybody could finish. And maybe people think, I wish I'd done it with somebody who I got along better with, but I know that we did it with four people who could and did finish. And it was like the perfect ingredients for a task cohesion, even if social cohesion wasn't always there.

Sam Penny (1:08:34)
so each night you're camping on the land. You had a run in with a polar bear. Tell me.

MARK (1:08:37)
Yeah. We have many,

many run-ins of the polar bears, but this one is the one that gets told. It wasn't even the only bear that like woke us up just outside our tent. But it was the one, it was the only one that wouldn't leave. Yeah, we're all lying in our tent and the tent came to shake and I was like, Eileen, I think that's a polar bear. And she was like, ⁓ it's just the wind, Mark be quiet.

I was like, oh, okay. So I lay down and then I heard like a ping and I swear it was like a guy rope pinging something was tripping over it. And I was like, I really think that's a polar bear. And they were like, it's not, just shut up. It's five a.m. And then we heard like.

And yeah, at that point I really thought it was a polar bear. and West was sitting with his earplugs in so he didn't even hear it. He just got poked and he looked, opened his eyes and we're all looking at him like. And we slowly, I slowly opened the zip at the front and the polar bear was perfectly silhouette against our rain fly. Like all of its teeth were so clearly defined in the shadow, looked like Jurassic Park logo. So I grabbed the flare gun, I put it out of the door.

And you know, as I say, we've seen lots of bears by this point. I don't know, 20 bears, something. You know, maybe 15 bears plus their cubs. Something between 15 and 20 would be my guess. And I pulled the trigger. Usually a bear even 100 meters away would sprint away from a flare gun. So to pull a trigger next to bear's head, it was definitely going to work. And bang, the flare goes off and shoots into the nearside hill.

and the bear doesn't move.

Sam Penny (1:10:24)
⁓ no.

MARK (1:10:25)
We look at each other, I crawl out the back of the tent and stand up. It's there and it turns its head to look at me. And we start screaming at it and the others get out and we all start throwing stones at it and almost all of the stones miss because it turns out even when their lives depend on it, Americans are shitty cricket. But like even the ones that do hit, the bear just sort of barely twitched. And Eileen, who's born and bred in Alaska, seems to be most chilled. So she's popping in and out of the tent, getting us jackets and boots and stuff like that with the bear there.

And after about 10 minutes, five, 10 minutes, it turned around and walked away just very slowly and continued to hail of stones at it. And there was no, you know, their initial reaction to my saying, that's a bear. There was no doubt that I was the most paranoid of bears. You know, I'm a British, I don't have much exposure to apex predators. And my teammates are maybe more used to sleeping in an area with grizzly bears or whatnot and relaxing about it.

But equally sometimes I thought that my urgency was being confused for fear. I wanted to like, take it seriously, get out, you have a gun on it, I'll throw the stones. It's not panicking, it's trying to like anticipate. But yeah, it was a crazy experience. Crazy experience.

Sam Penny (1:11:41)
So what's going through

your mind through all of that?

MARK (1:11:45)
Yeah, good question. What was I thinking about? Just like what to do. So all of these crazy situations where we almost died several times, ⁓ or could have died, not almost died, but if things have been different, ⁓ they're really slightly more chaotic than the situations I put myself in and the build up to the training. So I guess it's like doing a deadlift.

I couldn't lift 200 kilograms tomorrow and if I did, I'd break my back, but I could do 50 kilograms and 55 and 60. And I had done my 50 kilogram deadlift in like quite crazy conditions in Hong Kong and more and more and more. And by the time I got to the 200 kilogram, like almost dying in the Arctic, I was already have the ability to stay calm but equally be urgent.

So I guess part of it is it's not like a primal fear, like the fight or flight. It's not the flight, it's like the absolute binary problem. ⁓ What email should I do first? Somebody's calling me, but I've got to do this and the kids need that. There's nothing, it's laser focused. So just throwing stones and yeah, I trying to get the others to back up. was saying like when it was yawning, I was telling them that means it's bearing its teeth, which I think people...

thought I was scared and of course it was like an adrenaline kind of fear but it's like a focus urgency solution eccentric ⁓ primal reaction ⁓ so yeah there's not really much going on beyond like trying to solve the immediate problem ⁓ I think we were lucky I mean like of course we're lucky because if that bear had been in a different mood we would have been dead but yeah it was

Sam Penny (1:13:36)
And

certainly collecting stories to tell your grandkids. Now, 103 days of kayaking, you get to the finish, you got two world records. How does that feel?

MARK (1:13:43)
Yes, that's the idea. My mom would be happy.

Well, certainly my proud, very proud, but now I sort of separate pride and contentment, you know, because I previously linked those two. I'll be so proud of having set a world record in the Atlantic that I'll be content for life. But being proud of something doesn't make you content. There's so many stories of people achieving their dream and then feeling empty afterwards. The most famous in my world, I suppose, would be

Johnny Wilkinson winning the World Cup at 23 and then not knowing what to do with himself and being incomplete, struggling with it really. So the pride comes from the achievement, the contentment comes from these intrinsic motivations. I got everything I was looking for, adventure, which meant camaraderie and immersion in nature and challenging myself. I owe it all to West Jeff and Eileen. Like, yes, we had those tensions and I found it frustrating being the middle man, but.

I love them. ⁓

I'm so, it's like a fog is lifted from my eyes because I was so determined to do this at all costs. And people always ask me like, what's next? And of course there's things I want to do, but like everything was clouded and framed through this one utter determination to do this one specific thing at all costs. To my life, to my money, to potentially like leaving my kids fatherless, it all came down to this.

And so now I feel so content and I don't think I would have felt that contentment if I hadn't refocused on what an adventure really is. And I'm also proud in the outcome. Like I'm very proud of the outcome. ⁓ I'm proud of myself, how I performed emotionally, physically as a mediator, whatnot. I'm proud of how I come out of it. yeah, ⁓ so.

Pride and contentment, two different things and I have them both.

Sam Penny (1:16:02)
Fantastic. Now, Mark, this all comes down to one choice, and it's the moment you decided to say yes. As you know, the show is called Why Do Think You Could Do That? So I have to ask you, Mark, from everything, your upbringing, an adventure of father and also mother, your failed Atlantic attempts, and then going out...

almost trying to row the northwest passage but then kayaking it. Why did you think you could do that?

MARK (1:16:38)
Because of the name of this podcast, I have been trying to think of a good answer. Because there were certainly a lot of times where I thought I couldn't do it. Or, you know, I've lost my money, I'm not going to do this. Or in the beginning when we were going very slowly, I was frustrated with different people's approaches to the adventure. I thought we're not going to do this if we continue like this. But why did I think I could do it? I spent so long trying to answer the question, why do I think I want to do this?

Sam Penny (1:16:42)
Ha ha ha.

MARK (1:17:09)
But I'm not sure if I spent that much time asking the question, why do I think I can do this? And I sort of just thought, it can be done. That's why people are trying it. Somebody's going to do it. And I, why can't that person be me? I didn't explicitly say that. I just sort of assumed that it could be me. ⁓ And I'm not a particularly physically gifted person. But I've spent so much time asking the why.

Why do I want to? And now I think if you answer that question, why do I think I want to do this? Then the can you looks after itself. If you love the pursuit and the goal will look after itself because you'll stick to the pursuit out of love. The pursuit no longer is an obstacle between you and the goal. It is the goal. And if you're achieving that every day,

Of course you're going to get to the end. And sure, like you might not get to the end this time, and you'll think, that guy on the podcast told me I loved the pursuit and I failed now. But then you'll come back, or you'll change the pursuit, or you'll adapt, or become the Atlantic to the Northwest Passage, or whatever it is that you want to do. Or somebody else who only wants the goal. If they don't achieve the goal, they'll think, well, what was the point? And they're not going to come back tomorrow, so they'll never achieve it, whether or not it's that one or the one they adapt to. You love the pursuit.

The goal looks after itself. I'd say the big secret to that is defining the pursuit. It's the journey, not the destination. Well, what the hell is a journey? It's only defined in relation to the destination. Therefore, it's impossible to separate. That's why I think it's so important to have the language to say the pursuit for me is either challenge, experience, relationship or cause. sometimes next, you know, a few weeks ago I went cycling with my dad in the Cain Gorms. He's 81.

Of course it was a little bit challenging with cycling but it wasn't like I'm out of my comfort zone. It was all about relationships and experience, because I'm doing it with somebody special with me in the wild. So you can always pick and choose which of those four do you want. But if you define the pursuit, you can learn to love it, and then if you learn to love it.

then the like, can you do this is sort of secondary. So I don't have a good answer. I can tell you why I wanted to do it. And then I think the second answer answers itself.

Sam Penny (1:19:34)
in my research, I've seen that you've often referred to imposter syndrome. How does that come about?

MARK (1:19:45)
I think I have imposter syndrome in relation to being a motivational speaker now because I think like, what have I got to tell people? I sort of feel like a bit of a hypocrite going up there and telling people how to live their lives. And like so much of the success in this is like, you know, I've come from a comfortable background and it's not that anybody paid for it for me, but you know, I know that if.

I'll never be homeless. I always have a bed to go to and a hot meal. So suddenly you can take risks. And now I'm telling people like, love the pursuits. That's where I have imposter syndrome. But, and I try and deal with that with the fact that I guess this is an exceptional thing to do. I mean, I feel like if I can do it, anybody can do it because I have no particular background in kayaking. ⁓ I, you know.

well what does that say about it so ⁓ yeah i guess i yeah

Sam Penny (1:20:37)
Yeah, but it's the willingness

to get out there. It's the ability to say yes to something that most people would say is impossible. Or you're stupid, you're crazy. And just because you said yes to it, that's what gives you the right to get up on that stage and hopefully interact with people and make them motivated to say yes as well to their own challenge, their own path.

MARK (1:21:05)
Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, I mean, in some ways, you know, people sometimes ask me how long it took to train and, know, was a matter of months. But in other ways, it was like eight years because doing all of the different things I did from training for the first Atlantic to the Northwest Passage, it sort of embeds mentally and physically. it wasn't like, yeah, I four months dedicated training. Well, that was really like sharpening the pyramid after eight years of being comfortable in the outdoors.

So, you maybe I'm doing myself discredit by saying, well, anybody can do it, but equally, like maybe a lot of people could have done it, but I guess they didn't. And that's the point. One of my other like things I say in my speeches, those who believe they can and those who believe they can't are both exactly the same. It's only doers who are different. So maybe I need to listen to my own speech and give myself credit for being able to do it.

Sam Penny (1:22:00)
So after finishing the Northwest Passage Mark, do you consider yourself a man who does adventures or an adventurer?

MARK (1:22:10)
this is a big, big irony, big irony here. In the buildup to doing the Northwest Passage for the years living in Hong Kong and then before that, I was out doing stuff all the time. Hong Kong is super accessible and then back in the UK, I was making a point of it. And whether that was hiking in the weekend or doing a trail run, or even hiking after work during the week, and then was kayaking and we're camping and I did rock climbing and there was a big rock climbing crag like above the city. I'd meet my friend James at like 5 a.m.

rock climb and I was thinking, God, I want to be an adventurer. And now I have kids and I live in London. When I went cycling the other day with my dad and then about a week before that, I went cycling with my friend from Hong Kong through the South Down Way, which is like a hundred mile route, just South of London. was like, this is the first time I've done anything that could be considered adventurous since the Northwest Passage two years ago. So I was an adventurer.

And then I became European Adventurer of the Year, and then I've done nothing since. So am I an adventurer anymore? ⁓ So I was like, am I an adventurer yet? And now I'm asking, am I an adventurer anymore? So the irony is it's all through perspective. Yeah, mean, this is a quote from another adventurer who I admire called Al Humphries. If you feel like you're on an adventure, then you are. And yeah, so.

I guess the big difference is I don't have an existential crushing urge to answer the question. I'm content, I'm very fulfilled. I have meaning in a lot of things that I do and I'm sure I'll do something again in the future and that will bring me fulfillment and joy and pride and contentment. ⁓ that, I mean, the idea of doing something with my kids who are too young to do anything at the moment, they're like...

whether that's hiking or sitting on rock first or whatever, anything in between, doing it with them, God, that would be the pinnacle. So, know, am I an adventurer? Am I somebody who does adventure? I'm certainly not somebody who does adventure at the moment, but I am somebody who's content not to answer that question. five years ago, would have eaten me alive.

Sam Penny (1:24:25)
Fair enough then.

Yeah right. So you and I both know that every great journey it leaves us changed. How did the Northwest Passage change you as a person?

MARK (1:24:42)
The big change came after the second failed Atlantic. So by the time I got to the Northwest Passage, I'd done so much mental training and got into so many reckless, not reckless, I know that they were stupid. And sometimes I thought to myself, I should turn around, but I'm here to build mental strength, that's the point. And I crossed the line from rejected risk to reckless risk so that I was completely calm in the Northwest Passage.

And yes, I tested all of that theory in the Northwest passage and confirmed that I was completely with it. So I guess it didn't change me so much as the failed second Atlantic did. That's my fork in the road. ⁓ The things that I learned about myself was that... ⁓

The being middle person also revealed that I'm like bad with conflict and maybe I could have dealt with that better by challenging people and saying, I know that you're struggling, but like, don't you think that, but I never followed up with a, don't you think that you should, and that may have facilitated and enabled attention to continue. So that's what I've learned. But yeah, so my fork in the road was a second failure and the Northwest passage.

I don't think I learnt anything specific about myself, but it's definitely made me more content and fulfilled and lifted this fog from me where I was under so much pressure from nobody but myself to do it.

Sam Penny (1:26:15)
Now, to be honest, Mark, most of us aren't going to kayak the Arctic, but bravery, shows up in other ways. So do you think that there's any lessons from the Arctic that someone can apply in their everyday life?

MARK (1:26:30)
I hope so, because it's my whole job now giving a motivational talk about it. ⁓ So yeah, I guess only because you specifically said the word bravery, ⁓ I'll answer to that. I think people sometimes confuse being tough and being resilient. They say, they use the words interchangeably, but they're not. Being tough is the ability ⁓ to suffer through something, get on with it, finish. And you need that.

Sam Penny (1:26:33)
Hahaha.

MARK (1:26:58)
that is an element of resilience, but resilience has so many more branches. And if you're too tough, you can't access the other branches of resilience, like being able to adapt. You know, if you're so focused and so tough, you can't adapt, then it undermines your resilience. Comradery, teamwork, accessing support, listening to feedback, that all makes you more resilient. But if you're too tough, then you can't.

you won't be able to lean on other people because you think that it's about self-reliance. Resilience is also about what happens afterwards, post-traumatic growth or post-traumatic stress. And if you're too tough to confront your emotions, then you're not going to be able to turn PTSD into post-traumatic growth, where you learn from something and go on. So the ability to laugh at yourself ⁓ and think this is ridiculous and then sort of shrug it off and get on.

That means you can enjoy it, means you can connect with other people, it gives you the space to adapt. And if you're too tough to do that, then you're not going to be resilient. So yes, if you want to be resilient, you have to be tough. But if you're too tough, then you can't be resilient. So give yourself some compassion, allow yourself to laugh, be brave enough to know that adapting is not the same as quitting. Know that getting help and connecting other people is not the same as not being tough.

Sam Penny (1:28:23)
So then what do you think would be one small act of courage that someone listening could take tomorrow to really change their trajectory?

MARK (1:28:31)
Hmm, one thing that they could do tomorrow.

This is really good one. One thing you could do tomorrow.

If you're struggling, try ⁓ and find meaning in struggle. Instead of saying it's an obstacle, it's a challenge, I'm challenging myself. If you frame it in like the, not in just an individual context of that particular challenge, but in the context of a broader journey, we're all on this journey, it's not going to be linear like this, it's going to go up and down and up and down. I read the other day about space psychology, said if you frame life in

that you're on a hero's journey, then suddenly the call to action could be the challenge. And then the moment when you think you're going to fail is like the second peak in the movie where you think you're at Mountain Doom and then there's suddenly a big spider. And if you frame it in that, suddenly is contextualized in this much broader struggle rather than just like an individual obstacle that happens to be annoying you today. And it brings meaning to everything. So.

Yeah, I always come back to those intrinsic motivations, know, whether it's challenge, relationships, experience or causes. And somebody asked me the other day in one of my talks, don't you think that's a point of privilege? He was the first person in his family to go to college and his parents had to work really hard to get him there. And now I'm telling them to enjoy the journey. But, you know, if compared to another family in the same situation.

who's going to find the extra drive and meaning? The person who wants to accumulate more money to change their situation, which is, if you're from a disadvantaged background, I'm not dismissing that. Or the person who's trying to send their first kid to college. That's a relationship goal. An intrinsic driver. That they were found an extra lever to go incredibly hard to do good by their son. So, how serious or not serious is always a way that you

frame it to have an intrinsic motivation, give yourself meaning, give yourself purpose and contextualize. And I'm not saying enjoy the journey, I'm just saying find meaning in it. It doesn't make it any easier, it just makes it more tolerable and meaningful.

Sam Penny (1:30:47)
⁓ Fantastic words there, Mark. Now, I love to finish every interview with the Brave Five. It's rapid fire five questions, ⁓ Now, don't expect everyone to relate to the other. They could be quite random, so you're ready.

MARK (1:30:57)
god, I try and be rapid-fire, I know I've been waffling.

Yes, I'm ready. I'm excited.

Sam Penny (1:31:08)
Very good. All right, the most unexpected takeaway from your journeys.

MARK (1:31:13)
⁓ Most unexpected takeaway is that being tough is not being tough. Knowing your why makes you resilient more than having the ability to grin your teeth and go through pain.

Sam Penny (1:31:27)
Fantastic. Now the first emotion you felt after finishing the Northwest Passage.

MARK (1:31:32)
⁓ As we were picked up in the aeroplane, this tiny, tiny aeroplane that was so small we just saw our kayaks in half to pick them up in the plane. And looking out of the window, it was a whole bunch of emotions, relief, redemption, catharsis, but also in a way disbelief. The vastness of the landscape sort of opening up below us through the window as we crawled in the sky. I can't believe we were apart.

Sam Penny (1:31:59)
Wow. ⁓ One thing you wish you knew before you started.

MARK (1:32:04)
that technique counts more than fitness and if I'd spent more time on my technique I would have been faster even if it meant arriving less fit.

Sam Penny (1:32:14)
Okay, a habit or a mindset that made the biggest difference.

MARK (1:32:19)
My mindset was, the biggest difference was my mindset from really, really, really wanting to set the world first to really, really, really wanting to be immersed in nature and have an experience of camaraderie.

Sam Penny (1:32:31)
Fantastic. And last question, best advice you've ever received on an expedition.

MARK (1:32:37)
advice I've ever received on an expedition. I mean, it's probably just a really boring, practical one. In fog, on the water, if you try and look at the water, there is always a little bit of a wave or ripple. And if you can sort of keep your eye on that, and they begin to change direction, like they begin to hit the boat from the side, it doesn't mean the winds change, it just means you've changed direction. It's very disorientating in fog.

And in the Northwest Passage, I was incredibly competent at navigating through fog. And it was because I was keeping my eye on those waves. And I learned that from the guy who took my money for rowing the Northwest Passage. So, you know, thank you. That's 50,000 pounds worth of advice.

Sam Penny (1:33:21)
All right.

Mark, your story reminds us that bravery isn't found in the moments when everything is going right. It's forged in the cold, lonely hours when the waves are against you, the ice is closing in and failure feels like the only option. Twice Mark pulled out of the Atlantic, convinced his dreams had ended, but he chose to get back up. He chose to risk failing again. And that choice, that decision,

to keep paddling when no one else would is what carried him to the Northwest Passage, two world records and a place in history. Maybe you'll never face polar bears on the ice, but we all face our own Northwest Passage. the business you dream of starting, the bold goal you keep putting off, the fear that whispers you're not enough. That question is not whether you could do what Mark did. The question is,

Will you ever take your next step, even when it feels impossible? Now, Mark, for those listening who want to follow your adventures, find your book or even bring you in to share your story, where's the best place for them to connect with you?

MARK (1:34:31)
Well, my website, adventureagnew.com, and my Instagram, also adventureagnew.com. You can get my book, There Will Be Headwinds, Kayaking the Norther's Passage by Mark Agnew. Just Google it. Or connect with me on LinkedIn, that's probably the best way. Mark Agnew, search me, and you should find me on.

Sam Penny (1:34:47)
Fantastic. And I'll make sure I put all of those links into the show notes. And if this conversation has sparked something in you, don't keep it to yourself. Share it with a friend, a colleague, or someone who needs a reminder that failure is not the end. It's the beginning of something greater. Make sure you subscribe so you never miss the next story of ordinary people saying yes to the impossible because bravery spreads and your share.

just might spark someone else's first step. I'm Sam Penny, and this is why you think you could do that. Until next time, keep saying yes to the impossible.