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Welcome to YWAIT, the podcast where inspiring ideas meet real action. Hosted by Kailey and powered by YW Calgary, each episode features trailblazers and change-makers sparking conversations on entrepreneurship, financial wellness, leadership, and personal growth. Why wait? Join us and be part of the conversation.
Kailey 0:04
Welcome to YWAIT- Women Advancing Ideas Together, the show where we spark conversations that inspire action and create change. Each episode, we bring in leaders, change makers and strong women to dive into bold discussions on entrepreneurship, economic wellness, leadership and professional growth. And we want to hear from you! Join the conversation, share your insights and let us know what topics matter most to you. Connect with us on social media at YW Calgary and be part of the movement. I'm your host, Kailey. Let's build a future of possibilities together. So why wait? Let's get started. Hello everyone, and welcome back to why wait? I'm your host, Kailey Armstrong, and we're here to spark action and inspire ideas that empower women in the areas of personal finance, entrepreneurship and career acceleration and anything else in between. I am here today with Jessica Vandenberghe, and I am so pumped to have her here, because when I think of an individual who's able to take adversity and translate that into action and acceleration in their own career, I think of Jessica Vandenberghe, founder of Guiding Star Consulting, an organization that specializes in walking alongside organizations through their journey of equity, diversity and inclusion as well as truth and reconciliation. Jessica, welcome.
Jessica 1:34
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Kailey 1:38
That's awesome. I'm so happy to have you here too, and where are you joining us from today? I know we're recording virtually.
Jessica 1:45
Yeah, today I'm joining from the traditional territory, treaty six in what's known as Edmonton, Alberta. And we have been a homeland and gathering place of First Nations, Metis and Inuit people since time immemorial, and since then, of course, we're an urban center in the middle of central Alberta.
Kailey 2:04
Welcome. It's so interesting. There's no windows here in our recording studio here at YW Calgary, but it's a rainy day, and on my commute here, Jessica, I was just thinking about your career and how vast it has been. I've had the pleasure of partnering with you from a consulting perspective. I've had the pleasure of being your friend. And, you know, I think about your time in STEM, masters educated engineering. I think about how you've worked in consulting and started your own organization in that way, and I- there's just so many questions I have, and I would love to just dive deep in all these areas and really start to inspire our listeners on the different ways that they can take their careers in so many different paths that really are not only heart centered, but also uplift others too.
Jessica 2:58
Yeah, that would be wonderful. I know my life has gone all over the place. I kind of follow my passion in my heart and where I feel I can make a big impact, and that's taken me all over the place, and I've had an extraordinary career, and I'm just so thankful for everyone who has been part of that over the years. And I really do hope people can find their way to things that they're passionate about, because that's really where you find joy in many parts of your life.
Kailey 3:26
Let's start there. Let's start with passion and what inspired you to go into chemical engineering and really, really enter like quite a male dominated industry sector organizations like engineering, is not for the faint of heart. Jessica,
Jessica 3:46
good question. So just a little bit of my background, just for some context. So I am First Nations from the Danita, First Nation in treaty eight, territory, which is up by close to the center of High Level, probably the closest center. And I'm born to two residential school survivor parents. But I didn't grow up in a community. I grew up in a German Catholic family in rural Alberta. I'm part of the 60s scoop, and so was in the foster adoption system. And so my adopted family that I grew up in, I grew up with two brothers, my dad, who's several generations into Canada and worked in the construction field. And my mom, who immigrated from Germany and didn't finish her high school education, but was really, really a self motivated person, and she became a farmer and then taught herself and finished her high school and became an accountant and did all sorts of different things that were self motivated. And a lot of that, when I think back, a lot of that really instilled in me of being self motivated. You just figure things out, you build things. We weren't really hindered as kids creatively, mainly because we were left alone a lot so we could create, and it was okay. My dad was so good at building things, he could just make things. So we had shops and tools and all sorts of different things that we created. So we built tree houses and rafts to go on the river and all sorts of different things, toys he would make us in his shop and create all these farming implements that were needed and fix anything. So you know that truly, you don't realize it as a kid, but was part of who we were growing up. And so in rural Alberta, growing up in a Catholic school like our career exposure at that time was pretty limited, so a lot of kids from my school didn't really go to university. That wasn't really the theme of school, it was more you get trained, you work in your family business. The oil patch was starting to pick up at that time, so you got jobs in the trades or in the oil patch, and you stuck around home. But I was, I've been very blessed to be very smart. And so I was Valedictorian of the high school, I was really good at science, I was really good at math, and so University was really appealing. And that's, you know, all the guidance counselors said, you know that that's a good path for you. In my family, no one went to university. My brothers went into the trades like my dad, and worked hard in those and have become successful businessmen in those areas. But so I didn't have anybody from my family to give advice other than what we read at that time. Of course, I graduated at a time when the internet was not a thing, so it wasn't one of those things we could Google. So we relied on guidance counselors, and so they said University is a good way to go. What do you want to study? And I actually originally wanted to follow a creative field. But one thing that I learned growing up too is that you need money to live. So my mom was very adamant about making sure we were all very financially literate. So even though I would have loved to be a musician or an artist or things like that, I really wanted to find something that would give me a really stable income as well. And so I was thinking about medicine, because I had not even heard of engineering. No one talked about engineers. We didn't have engineers in our lives until I went to school one day, and in our chemistry class in grade 11, we had a guest speaker, and that guest speaker talked about engineering and the path to engineering through university. And it really sounded appealing, because he could design things and build things and create things. And in my mind, at that time, you didn't have to deal a lot with people. I was a very, very introverted child, very shy. I was afraid of public speaking, really, you know, people weren't my thing. I love to just be in nature. Walk in nature, be alone, you know, work on the farm, things like that. And so when this person talked about engineering, that seemed a lot more appealing to me over that of medicine. And so I gave that a go instead. And really, I was inspired by this one STEM talk in my chemistry class.
Kailey 7:55
Isn't that amazing how it just continues to emphasize the importance of sharing the different career paths to youth, because not everybody has that same exposure. Not everybody's parents might be guiding them in those types of directions, and so to hear it from multiple sources can just be another way to inspire individuals about what is possible beyond what they're just seeing in their immediate network, which as youth is small. It can be small at first.
Jessica 8:32
For sure, a lot of people their worlds are small, and that's okay. It's safe to keep your world small, and you don't want to introduce too much of the world too quickly. I worry a little bit about our youth these days, with social media and internet and access to everything, their worlds were made too big too quickly. And so, you know, I really do think it is inspiration from anywhere, and I really do believe in youth outreach that one person can make an impact. You might not know what words resonate and stick with somebody, but I've seen so many times, myself included somebody coming to speak, and their words sit with you for the rest of your life.
Kailey 9:10
And when you think about, you know, those words that you've heard and just the guidance that you've received along the way, is there anything that really still stands out to you and still provides you with inspiration in your own career today.
Jessica 9:27
Yeah, like I have had many mentors over the years, some that I sought out myself, some that have reached out, and some that you know I never met, but I've heard speak at events that really still stick with me. And I think through some of the words that I go over in my head still, you know, they're still relevant here decades later, after I heard them, they were relevant when I was a junior engineer, and they're still relevant now that I'm a leader in a different field. But I think through the one mentor I had, and he said, you know. You'll look back at some point and realize that all the walls you're running against weren't actually there. They were walls that you built yourself, and one day you're just going to walk right by them. And that I think about a lot, about how much our own mindset and attitudes are what hold us back. And so when I talk to folks about equity, diversity, inclusion, or truth reconciliation or careers or anything like that. I really think about that a lot, and how much courage plays part in countering narratives in our head that we built ourselves.
Kailey 10:33
And so impactful too, when we think about, you know, I'm thinking about our listeners, Jessica, maybe there's individuals that are already working in STEM, maybe there's individuals who might be facing adversity in their own career. We know that being a woman professionally, there's still challenges that we're facing, and those are even amplified depending on our intersectionality, of course. And so what thoughts or advice do you have for women to respond to those walls differently, and what can they do to walk, to walk past them like what have been some of your approaches over the years?
Jessica 11:17
Yeah, for sure, when I reflect back on that, there's a few things that I think about that I think about in that realm, right? You know, thinking about how I got into engineering is always interesting, because, again, my family didn't go to university. They also weren't familiar with what engineering was. So I didn't have any preconceived notions that going into that field as a female would be hard, or that you would, I'd be in the minority of those represented. It didn't even occur to me until I was in it, and no one placed those in there. So you know that that is a good and bad thing. I know we talk a lot about identity these days, and representation and building confidence and all these things, but through that, we're also introducing, we're also introducing thoughts into people who have not been exposed to that and may not be exposed to it too. So it's thinking about really our words and the impact of our words when we're mentoring others, and the stage of life that they're in, and what they really need to know and what they still need to figure out on their own, but really providing the support for when people run into barriers that we may or may not have anticipated, and to support them through it, right? So it's really thinking about the support around you to get you through the challenges, not necessarily eliminating the challenges, because sometimes that is a harder thing. And so when we talk about in equity, diversity, inclusion, but reducing barriers, the counter supportive piece of that is building, building the environment around the person, and creating the psychologically safe places so they have people they can talk to openly and vulnerably about how it's feeling and how they're reacting and how it went, and really build the tools to help them mentally and emotionally and physically through the things that they are facing, rather than setting them up by saying, well, we can remove all the barriers, and it's going to be easy, and you'll never know. We need to learn those tools of how to get through adversity. And really, when I think about our theme today, and talking about every challenge or hardship or life you know, throwing things at you that I faced, all built tools and resiliency and all these things that make it easier when life throws other things at you.
Kailey 13:38
And so profound. The shift for me that I'm having with what you're sharing, Jessica, is talking about building up supports, right? Whether that's as an organization, building those supports for individuals to be successful as an individual, what are the different tools and learning that I need to surround myself with to be successful and knowing that we will continue to face adversity, though, it's how we respond to it and how we are resilient through it, that that really demonstrates our growth as individuals and how we can inspire others as well.
Jessica 14:22
Yeah, very much so. And really thinking too, that nowadays we see people as whole people. It used to be, you have your work life and your personal life, and you didn't talk about either. There was, you know, a wall you didn't cross. And especially in the STEM professions, especially with emotions. So as a female, I have a lot of emotions that I need to manage and I carry, and they come out at work or personal life or in between. And so this suppression of emotion in the workplace is starting to change too, which is really good, because it's not healthy. Of course, to suppress your emotions, you need to process them, but you also need to manage them. So that you can talk about what caused them and all these things, right? But really thinking through that now, the tools that we use in our personal life can also be used in our work life is also of advantage, too. So when I think through some of the larger things I've faced in life, personally and have gone through various types of psychological help and professional help through that, the tools that they taught me and that also helped me in my professional life, and when I think about things that I worked on in my professional life, I see ways to apply that in my personal life, with my kids, in my family, and how we manage our household and our day to day, hecticness that comes with being a parent some days.
Kailey 15:41
So really, taking it's this concept like our tools can translate, right and and there's, there's powerful tools that are personal to us, and they resonate with us, and, you know, encouraging ourselves. What are some of the ways that we can apply those tools, personally, professionally, when we're parenting, wearing all those hats that we wear as individuals. And I, I really appreciate what you said around this movement that we're seeing now where we really are whole people. We're seeing that evolution in the workplace as well. And one of the things I, or my admire about you, Jessica, is this. You do have a whole, full life, and you know you're working, you know, Associate Dean University of Victoria. You have Guiding Star Consulting. You're a parent, you're a board member, you're a daughter, you're all the things the list goes on and so what? What inspired you to start Guiding Star Consulting, because that's, that's a big lift.
Jessica 16:50
Yeah, for sure, good question. You know, good question. So when I was younger, I was, again, very creative. So I painted a lot. I drew a lot. I tried poetry, but I wasn't very good at that.
Kailey 17:06
You tried though!
Jessica 17:07
Yeah, I tried. But one thing that I wanted to try was writing. And so, you know, I still have this journal. I actually just did spring cleaning this weekend, moved it the other day, and was looking back on it. And, you know, I dream about things I'd want to do, and often I would do this exercise of dreaming, well, if I wasn't hindered by salary, what would I do? And then, if I'm hindered by salary, what would I do and what would make me happy? And I always had this dream of a consulting company. I had this when I was a junior engineer and going to conferences and doing training and taking these tools, and how can we support people and make it better? So I always had this dream of being a people leader, and eventually I did become a people leader. And eventually there came an opportunity to create Guiding Star, actually out of hardship. So that came guiding star started about five years ago, I think 2020, April, 2020-
Kailey 18:08
Congratulations!
Jessica 18:09
Thank you.
Kailey 18:10
That's a milestone.
Jessica 18:12
And it came about actually again because of the hardship I had in 2018. This again, needs a little bit of context. So I was working as a research engineer, loving research life and doing engineering work. It was, it was really great. I love math. I love doing the simulation. We got to do our engineering work and grow it from bench scale to larger scale and larger scale to eventually put in oil sands operation, which is world class scale. And as an engineer, that's super exciting. So I love that work. But then the environment and the support system wasn't great. I had eight leaders in 10 years. There were a number of things that were, I'd say, in the realm of racism and gender discrimination and sexism and things like that that just really were very, very large things. And so I wanted to change the world. And so I'm like, Where can I do that but still keep a foot in engineering? And I went to work for the engineering regulator for a number of years, and did quite a few things in that career. But because of my career accomplishments, the Alberta Chamber of resources presented me with the indigenous leadership award in 2018 and at that award ceremony, there was a man. There were lots of people who came and supported me. There was a man that waited right till the end. So, you know, I made my speech. I was one of two speakers alongside Stephen Harper, and it was such a beautiful night. My children were there, and my dad came like, it was just, was really, really nice. But this fellow was so patient, and he waited. And I said, you know, I go up to him every once in a while to see what he wants. He's like, Oh, I'm just going to wait. I'm just going to wait. I want to talk to you when there's less people. And then he waited until the end, and he told me that his story was the same as mine. He was adopted, raised in a European Catholic family, and he was a First Nations man and he went to work in engineering and went into oil and gas, like there were lots of parallels in our life. And he said, I'm a 60's scoop survivor, and I didn't know what that was. And so really that was a quite a pivotal moment to realize that I needed to find out more about my First Nations identity. And so in my mind, the best way to do that is to make that part of your work, because at that time, I was a mom already, and life is busy, and, you know, I don't have time for a lot of extra research, so I will make this part of my work. And so I left, whereas working for many reasons, but that was one of them, to start a career in truth and reconciliation, working with Indigenous communities. And I worked and worked for a consultancy, for a consultancy firm, and I had a chance to be part of some amazing projects, infrastructure projects, and I learned about land acquisition, and we did communication packages and nations who wanted to write constitution acts and the water issues and negotiating dollars from the federal government for infrastructure. So I learned so much in those few years, but it was also a heartbreaking couple of years, because I would go to all the reserves and all the Metis settlements, and people would just come up to me. It was heartbreaking story after heartbreaking story. I would just be standing there, and people would tell me their residential school story, or I'd go do a community engagement session in a school, and the principal would be like, This is our wall of children who commit suicide. Or this is the health problems that we're having, doing consultation in the health regions. Or I would tour their water treatment plants, and the shoddy work done by consultants was atrocious. It wasn't safe. And they said, This is what they left us, and we have no money to fix it for these reasons. And it was very eye opening. I consulted in a way where I put the nations and the Metis settlements first, and the consultancy firm I was with didn't like that approach. They didn't bring in the dollars the way they wanted to, and so they actually let me go. So I was let go, and I went that morning and founded Guiding Star consulting by the end of the week, because I was a parent and I needed to make sure I had a job, and I reached out to my network, and I was then hired within the month by another company. It wasn't very long without employment, and I had a severance package, but I also started this consulting company, and a lot of my clients came with me from that consulting firm, and so that really was the foundation of Guiding Star. Because I really do believe in the truth reconciliation work. I believe that there can be bridges to the reserves and the Metis elements, and I just couldn't do it in the traditional way that that consulting firm wanted me to do, it just didn't serve the communities in the right way. It wasn't caring. So really, that's where Guiding Star started from, was again, life threw you through things, and you just figured out a way to make it work and make a dream come true. And I remember, like, going to the business registry, and they're like, What do you want to call your company? And I had, again, that vision journal. I had a name from like, decades ago, and I had a structure that I wanted, and I knew exactly what I wanted to do and I'm like, I know what, I know what to call it. And that name wasn't taken. And so Guiding Star consulting came from that.
Kailey 23:22
What a beautiful story. Jessica, like I'm just, I'm so in awe, and, and, and we've had the opportunity to collaborate together. And even hearing your story at this level, it just the things that I continue to learn from you honestly, continue to leave me speechless, and and, in hearing you share that one of the things that stood out to me, even at the beginning, was, you know, not only the importance of having having such a heart centered business, a value led business, and something that I often don't hear- so we run entrepreneurship programs here at YW. And what was unique about what you shared is I knew I had to research more about my identity. I knew my life was full, and the best way for me to learn is to really infuse this as part of my work, because I know how to structure my work. And in a lot of ways, you're monetized for the research and for the learning. And so it's not only the revenue generation piece of it, but it's also a very applied way of learning and healing and knowing that you had all of these other supports alongside you, but using your consultancy as a way to learn more about yourself, more about your background. I think that's really I think that's such a unique approach, particularly for women, to see it from that lens. I think it's just very unique. So I hope listeners can take that away for sure, too. And. So you know, something that sparked some interest earlier on in our conversation, you had shared about just some reservations about how much access to information our youth have. And I want to pivot now. I want to talk teens, because I know you're a parent of teens, and you have a very beautiful way of nurturing and sparking this career curiosity in your children that is not only very intentional, it's very proactive, and it started before they were even teens. Like can you give us a few examples of some of the things that you were doing earlier with your kids, to just expose them to the different pathways that are possible.
Jessica 25:48
That's a great question. And I just want to, again, give the context that I've always been a stem Youth Outreach volunteer, and eventually, again, I moved that into part of my work. So it was part of my work because I loved it so much. And I do everything from math tutoring to what we used to, used to volunteer for Circle K at university. We'd go to various places to support them. So we would watch children sometimes, so single moms could go take some courses and get their education. We'd work at soup kitchens... a variety of things. So I do truly believe in giving back to community and volunteering and youth is great because, again, as mentioned, when I was a kid, I was incredibly shy, and when I went to university, I'm like, I got to figure this out, because I have to talk to people. And so I took Toastmasters and worked really hard on public speaking and being comfortable speaking. And so part of that youth outreach appealed to me because elementary kids are just excited about everything. You can go in there and they'll ask you a million questions. You don't have to be the one to try them out and motivate them, whereas junior high and high school is a different volunteer experience, right? So I really loved elementary kids, and so I've, I've been doing volunteer work in that area for a long time, and you learn a lot of things about how to work with children, how to get messages across, simple language, but understandable language, how to work in repetition. So that's how you really get your message across. Has come again and again, and in STEM youth outreach, we think a lot about where curiosity fizzles out in a youth life, right? And a lot of it has to do with their hindrance of being able to ask questions in school. And so when raising my kids, I really thought about, well, how do we keep curiosity alive, and how do we keep creativity alive? And how do we encourage questions? And so I remember back to my youth. We weren't encouraged to ask questions. We were like, you know, the first question every kid learns to ask is, why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Twenty times why. And I remember my parents say, just because, or, you know, be quiet, children are meant to be seen and not heard. Lots of these messages that came when I was young, and I'm like, Okay, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to answer their questions. I'm going to answer all the whys, and I'm going to be honest when I don't know the answer, I'm going to say I don't know, but we can figure it out. And so my go to phrase was always, I don't know, but we'll figure it out, and then off we go to the library. And my philosophy as well is that if they want a book and figure it out themselves, that's fine. I will never not buy them a book. We just actually went to the bookstore yesterday, and I said that I'll always buy you books. And so that's always another philosophy too, is that we as humans, you know, don't know everything, and sometimes we create this mystique of parents knowing everything, which is not true either. And then career wise too, to go head back to the original question. Often we create this mystery of work. Your parents are going off to work while you never really talk about that. So from a very young age, I've always talked about what my work is. And again, going back to mentors, I had one mentor who said, always bring your kids when you can bring your kids. And so I remember my daughter bringing her to a keynote speech that is doing for Wisest which is a stem youth outreach organization hosted by the University of Alberta, and I think she was maybe six months old, and they passed her around the audience. She was sleeping, and they looked after her while I did my keynote speech. But they've always come with me when I can to see where I work, and see my office, or come on conference trips and things like that, and get some exposure to this mystery of what is work. And then, of course, give some exposure when we can just always talk about things we see in people, in the work that they're doing, and what it is and what they might find exciting about it. And so where we get opportunities, I love to take them on little tours of things. I think you and I, we went on a tour of an ambulance and told them, ask your questions, right? And whenever I can get friends to bring us to their workplace, they can. We went to tour this video game studio here in Edmonton, and I said, ask them all what they did for education. And it was amazing. It ranged from psychological psychology to computer science to accounting to like it was everything to create video games. So you have to think that you can do anything, but you need to pursue your education and learn how to study and really think about where you want to head.
Kailey 30:37
I love this so much. I'm getting so many ideas for my own parenting journey, Jessica, as always, when I talk to you, and it's and I think where I felt empowered, and I and I hope listeners, do too, is you don't need to know the answer, and why not take it as an opportunity to learn alongside your child, learn about different topics that are of interest to them and expose them to different ways of living, different ways of working, different education pathways. And I think, and what I know to be true, is that you're keeping this communication pathway open to your kids, and you're showing them that you're interested in what interests them, and we know that, as our kids become teens, maintaining that level of communication requires intention, right? So the fact that you were so focused on this earlier, I think, is just such a testament to the parents you are and the kids and who they're becoming. And I'm just thinking about, you know, as we, as we come to a close, I'm thinking about our listeners, women who maybe they're turning a chapter, and with that chapter, they're ready for change. And sometimes change can be small, sometimes it can be big. Maybe they're considering a different career. Maybe they, too, are considering translating their skills into consulting and like, what advice or ideas do you have for individuals if they're thinking about making a change and maybe facing adversity themselves, and maybe at a low moment, like you've described right, maybe experiencing a layoff, maybe experiencing the ending of a relationship, maybe experiencing, you know, kids starting their own journey, and there's still space for me, and there's still space for me to contribute. What would be your thoughts for them?
Jessica 32:44
Yeah, a couple pieces of advice come to mind. The first is to be humble, right? So what I mean by that is that I've taken a lot of left turns in my career to try to find things I am passionate about and can make an impact. But that means starting again. So starting again means you started a lower salary entry point level. You're not going to get paid as much as you did in a previous career, where you had, you know, X amount of years of experience. And so it is very humbling. You have to make sure that you're prepared for that. You know, it's kind of like that jump from high school to university, where, you know, you're a pro at high school, and then you get to university, and you're like, Oh, I gotta relearn how to study. And, you know, getting low marks on exams, it's very humbling, and it's the same with a shift in career, it will be humbling, and you gotta be okay with that. And again, it's just having the courage, knowing that you have the skill sets and ability to learn and ability to create credibility for yourself in that space. So just know that. The other thing is, of course, being financially literate, so making sure that if you're going to start a business, that you understand what that means financially, what the risks are. Again, you don't have to be a pro at financial learning or anything. You just need to find people who are and make sure they're in your support. So get advice from financial advisors or lawyers or people who have made that change. Find some mentors who belong to, you know, join different network groups where you know if your life change was because of a parting in relationship, like, find a single moms group or like, find the network. The thing that I always tell myself is there are millions of people in this world. Somebody's been through what you've been through. You just need to find them, and they will have some advice for you. And what I have found is that I've approached many people to be my mentors, people from CEOs to Olympic gold champions and things like that, to figure out how they tick and work and what inspires them. And every single one that I've asked has always said, Yes. People always want to share advice. They have been through something, and they don't want you to hurt as much as they did, right? So they'll always share advice. So look for those people in those networks, and then really, really again, do the self care through all of it. Life changes like this are hard. What you're going through might be hard, so make sure you take the time to rest and eat properly, recharge. Know what recharges you. Sometimes you have to do it in five minutes because you're on the go, but it will make a big difference in helping find balance, in helping to keep joy in your life, because in the dark times, that's really what you need, these tiny, joyful moments. And it's the tiny joyful moments in the dark times that will stay with you when you've moved on, and you'll remember that, and you'll think, you know, that wasn't bad. It wasn't bad at all. It was great. Like, look at all these things that happened along the way and the opportunities and the things that got me through, and the networks I made in the friends that I made and and that's what you'll remember so but that's what I'd give for advice.
Kailey 35:49
That's awesome. And really, I think just a common theme that you've shared is just the importance of surrounding yourself with people that do know and programs that do support and mentors and building community and building your self care support too. It's just surrounding yourself with things that you need and knowing that you're not alone, and that through challenge, we grow in ways that we didn't even know were possible sometimes. So Jessica, thank you so much for sharing your story, for inspiring our learners. I hope folks are able to take away some ideas that they can action and that leads them to a place of empowerment and purpose and clarity the way that your path continues to and maybe that first step is just as simple as adding Jessica Vandenberghe to your LinkedIn network and learning more about just the empowering work that Guiding Star Consulting continues to do. And if you yourself or organization are interested in learning more about how you can just receive this customized support as you work through your equity, diversity and inclusion, or Truth and Reconciliation supports and plans. Jessica would be happy to discuss that in more detail, and if you're looking for technical support as you grow your business or start your career in different ways, always know that YW Calgary economic prosperity has programs that are here to support women and ensure that not only women thrive, but their family and their community thrives too. Thank you everyone for joining me. Again, I'm Kailey Armstrong with Jessica Vandenberghe. Thank you again, and we'll talk to you next time. Thank you for tuning in to YWAIT, Women Advancing Ideas together, because why wait?