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On this episode of 'The Shrink Down' we take a closer look at the pressures female celebrities face to appear forever youthful. We discuss how this standard fuels unrealistic expectations for women everywhere and deepens the gender divide around aging. Why are female stars expected to look forever young, while society allows men to age more gracefully? We break down these cultural double standards, the impact on everyday women, and aging authentically in a world obsessed with youth.
Creators & Guests
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
Wilhelmina (00:00.94)
you
Vanessa (00:01.506)
Welcome back to The Shrinkdown, where psychology meets pop culture. Today we're gonna be talking about pressures society place on women as they age and difference in aging for women versus men, specifically in Hollywood, but also in general. As a reminder, we are four longtime friends. We met in grad school about 21 years ago and we're also licensed clinical psychologists. So what brought us to this topic was an article that came out recently called, What Do We Do With An Icon? And the author,
wrote about older women, female actors, making a comeback. So they mentioned Demi Moore and specifically a movie that she's in called The Substance. They also mentioned Pam Anderson. I know we've all seen her on social media. Everyone's talking about her and her no makeup routine that she's going for. And they talked about some other famous women who've kind of been out of the scene and kind of making a comeback now in some new movies that are coming out. But before we get into today's topic, we are going to share our four -minute faves.
Lauren (00:44.843)
Yeah.
Vanessa (00:58.732)
So this is where we're gonna share something that we really love or something really into at the moment, like a book, a TV show, movie, maybe somewhere we've traveled to that we really love, a half beauty product, just something that we're into. All right, so let's get started today. So Terry, why don't you start us off? What are you loving? What are you sharing with us today?
Teri (01:16.592)
Okay, so this might be a predictable one, but the Netflix short series, The Perfect Couple. I finally, I finished it last night. I rarely can stick with any TV show or series. They rarely can keep my attention. think I probably, my husband can vouch for this. maybe finished 10 % of what I start and watch. This definitely held my interest. It is,
Wilhelmina (01:23.327)
Ooh, started it last night.
Lauren (01:23.813)
Yeah.
Vanessa (01:24.513)
I don't know that one. Tell me. Tell me more.
Teri (01:43.18)
It's definitely in that category of prestige TV. All the acting is phenomenal. The storyline is great. I actually read the book, which it's loosely based on. The author did give carte blanche. I only remembered aspects of it, but then when I read an article about it, it sounds like they really did shift a lot. So there's, I think it's very loosely pulled from the book. Great acting.
Lauren (01:46.793)
Yeah.
Lauren (01:53.504)
gonna see how did it compare
Lauren (01:59.679)
Okay.
Lauren (02:03.711)
okay. So be prepared for that.
Teri (02:11.404)
Speaking of women and aging, Nicole Kidman is in it. Her face doesn't move very well, but I think a testament to her acting that she is such a great actress. Also though, her aesthetics fit the character and the role, but highly recommend, very watchable, easy to just blow right through. So highly recommend the perfect couple on Netflix.
Vanessa (02:34.688)
Awesome.
Wilhelmina (02:34.785)
Where does it rank with White Lotus? Because I know we both loved White Lotus. Yeah.
Lauren (02:38.992)
yeah.
Teri (02:39.008)
I like White Lotus too, yeah. I still put White Lotus a little bit above it, but it's up there. It's up there. I like it.
Wilhelmina (02:43.544)
Okay, okay.
Lauren (02:45.568)
Good filler. How bad is her wig? I've heard her wig's terrible.
Wilhelmina (02:46.944)
Okay. I started it last night, so I'm excited.
Vanessa (02:49.951)
Awesome.
Teri (02:50.777)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (02:52.48)
It is horrible. Horrible. Yeah, it's real bad. Yeah.
Teri (02:53.485)
that makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
Lauren (02:54.959)
is that? You didn't know? I read an article that the wigs pretty bad.
Vanessa (02:56.264)
Is she is she intentional? Why is she wearing it? Like, is it part of her character or?
Teri (03:00.217)
I didn't re
Lauren (03:01.896)
No, no, she is one of the, gosh, I mean, it's sort of related to what we're gonna talk about, probably, theoretically. She's one of the actresses, there's a lot of actresses that don't want damage to their hair, they don't wanna be in hair every morning, they'll do makeup, but they don't wanna do hair every day, and so they'll prefer a wig, but I heard, I have not seen the show, that this one is pretty bad. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (03:14.081)
Yeah.
Vanessa (03:14.782)
Okay. Gotcha. Got you.
Wilhelmina (03:23.894)
And she has fabu she has fabulous hair too. I'm like, she has fabulous hair. Why?
Teri (03:24.464)
Pretty wiggy look. It's wiggy looking.
Vanessa (03:27.318)
Yeah, that's why I was like, why is what is this part of her character? No, so interesting.
Lauren (03:29.458)
Yeah, and it's only a theory that people have that perhaps these actresses don't want damage done to their hair. So that, I mean, that piece makes sense. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Teri (03:29.784)
Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (03:35.03)
heard that. So Santa from Game of Thrones did that. He wore a wig because I think the first couple seasons she was like they were coloring my hair because she's a blonde naturally and she was like it was just too much so then they they switched her wig so that makes sense. All right. Okay. Well, I'm gonna what are you loving and sharing with us today?
Wilhelmina (03:38.732)
Yes. Yep.
Lauren (03:43.924)
Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yep.
Wilhelmina (03:44.578)
Wilhelmina (03:51.128)
Yeah. So my husband and I love horror movies. And as we are approaching the fall in October, we usually kind of ramp up our horror movie watching and just sort of search out the good ones. So we came across one this weekend. I actually hadn't heard about it, but then was shocked because it has a 96 % Rotten Tomatoes, which is almost unheard of for a horror movie.
Lauren (04:18.313)
yeah.
Vanessa (04:19.575)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (04:20.746)
So it's called The Oddity. It's an Irish horror movie. You can rent or buy it on Apple or Amazon. And it basically, it's very simple. It's about a psychic who's blind and she is trying to sort of solve her sister's brutal murder. And so she goes to the husband.
house and is there and is trying to solve this mystery, it kind of checks all the horror movie boxes. It's got this very creepy house where you're like, no one would ever really live here kind of thing. It's got characters you sort of love to hate. And what I love is that it is super simple, but it's super creepy, very eerie. It's got some paranormal stuff in there. It's definitely not for the casual horror movie.
Lauren (05:14.73)
Ha ha!
Wilhelmina (05:15.168)
Watcher, this is like if you liked hereditary or like the new movie Long Legs. So this is like, this is more intense than, yeah, I'm like, three of you are out.
Lauren (05:22.326)
I'm say, I'm out. This is why this is a good one for you.
Vanessa (05:23.446)
Yeah, I mean, I was like, I don't think any of us are watching it, aside from Willem. I know I can't sleep. I'm a scaredy cat besides it. I'm sorry for your sounds like great horror movie for those of you who enjoy horror movies.
Teri (05:24.282)
I'm out too.
Wilhelmina (05:35.608)
Mm -hmm. It is. It was so good. But yes, it's so for if you love horror movies, this one's a great one to check out. Again, 96 % Rotten Tomatoes. But yeah, not not for you three. Not at all.
Lauren (05:48.874)
Yes, no, no, no, no.
Vanessa (05:50.87)
All right, Lauren, what are you loving and sharing with us today?
Lauren (05:53.846)
My weighted vest. Have you guys been here? I know. I got one. I got one and I love it. I love it. love it. love it. So it was a little bit difficult to get used to. I mean, I think, you know, for those of you that might not know the idea, especially for women is in kind of shifting workouts as we get older to something that's maybe lower impact, easier on our joints.
Vanessa (05:56.32)
Ooh, everywhere. I've seen it everywhere. I have friends who've gotten them, yes. Okay.
Teri (05:59.101)
I just ordered one. I just ordered one.
Lauren (06:20.288)
but also still gives us a really good workout, helps with strength and muscles and bone density. So yeah, I recently got one. was a little bit, I felt a little bit unsteady when I first put it on. So I did a bunch of walks on the treadmill first. I mean, I don't know, that was just me. Just to make sure that I kind of had my bearings about it, because it's sort of like, almost like gives you sea legs for a minute. But it really forces you to kind of work on your alignment, your core.
Wilhelmina (06:49.581)
Mmm.
Lauren (06:50.196)
You sweat really good when you take a walk. So I'm obsessed. I love it.
Vanessa (06:53.954)
So are you wearing it around the house too? Cause there's that, what's her name? Doctor who I feel like she's always recording on Instagram and she's wearing hers. Yes. I think that's who it is. So are you wearing it around the house too or just when you're exercising?
Lauren (06:58.166)
Marie, Mary Claire, is that her? Yeah. I think so too. So I did the other day for like a little bit of cleaning, like doing the dishes and I think you just keep sweating. It's great. I love it. But yeah, I'm right now wearing. So you're supposed to do somewhere between, you're gonna put me on the spot. I think it's like eight to 12 % of your body weight or whatever. So what they do is you can start really low and then you can go up or you can go, you know,
Vanessa (07:07.847)
Yeah.
Teri (07:13.284)
How many pounds is yours?
Vanessa (07:21.787)
okay. So depending on what your size is, yeah.
Lauren (07:28.198)
from there. So I'm not gonna let you do the math on my body weight so you know. I know. my gosh.
Wilhelmina (07:29.058)
So are you going to be the mom that's doing, are you going to be the mom that's at pickup with her weighted vest and her weighted bracelets, which I see so many of those. And I'm like, huh, interesting. OK.
Vanessa (07:35.905)
you
Vanessa (07:39.606)
Your giant Stanley Cup? It's like a wave.
Lauren (07:43.624)
No, my husband was like, it's so bizarre. It's like you're like walking out to a SWAT team or something. That said, because it looks funky, right? That said, so we went on a walk and we did a, we have a three mile route that we do, my husband and I together. So we went on a walk. So I did two miles of it. And then I was like, Hey, just put it on for the last mile. He did the last mile. And he's like, it's fine. It's fine. It's whatever, you know, whatever.
Wilhelmina (07:50.968)
It is what it looks like.
Lauren (08:08.98)
The next day I came home and my weighted vest was sitting on the kitchen table because he went out and did a walk. Yeah. he loved it. Yeah. Yeah. So weighted vest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Yeah. Love it. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (08:13.051)
he used it.
Vanessa (08:17.078)
friends just like it's a couple husband wife just bought a pair and they're both because they started like doing walks and so they're like yeah we're walking and we're both wearing our best yeah so that's a thing
Teri (08:25.998)
My physical therapist, as a side note, recommended that you do wear for household chores to ease in and then start wearing it for walks.
Vanessa (08:32.128)
Okay. Cool.
Lauren (08:33.088)
So that was, I felt a little funky. So I just naturally went onto the treadmill. Cause I was like, at least I can hold onto the treadmill. And I'm not like in like two miles from my house and I feel like I'm going to fall over or something. And it was, you do need to kind of get used to the way it feels on your body. But yeah, I love it. I will. I will. Vanessa, what about you?
Vanessa (08:50.274)
That's interesting.
Wilhelmina (08:50.464)
You need to send us a link. I need a link. OK.
Vanessa (08:53.26)
Yeah, sure. Good one. Yes. So today I'm going to be sharing my favorite author slash book series. You all know it. And the reason why I thought of this is because when I was looking through the news this weekend, there was an article where they interviewed Margot Robbie, who was photographed with this author, Sarah J. Maas, who's my favorite author. And so they were photographed at a cafe. And there was all this speculation of, they just friends? Or is she going to be starring in one of her movies?
Lauren (09:02.48)
yeah.
Wilhelmina (09:09.752)
Mm
Lauren (09:13.831)
No.
Lauren (09:19.03)
collaborating.
Vanessa (09:21.868)
So they're trying to take her a Court of Thorns and Roses series and make it into a series. And so it's been in the works for a while, so nobody knows what's going on with it. But anyway, people were speculating whether it was her. So anyway, in this article, she's being interviewed, and she was like, let me talk to her and see what I can do. So it's kind of joking around. So I thought, OK, I'm going to share this series. So everybody knows that I love it. Sarah J. Maas, she's written.
Lauren (09:27.509)
Yeah.
Vanessa (09:46.112)
everyone in the book world calls it Akitar. So it's fantasy fiction with like a heavy romance. So it's like romanticy. So I like to nerd out and read that kind of genre. So that's one of her series. It's not finished yet. And then she has another one, Throne of Glass, that is finished. It's a very long series. The books are very long, very thick books, but they're excellent. So if you want to check out a new series, try a new genre. I swear it's awesome.
Wilhelmina (09:54.603)
you
Lauren (10:11.787)
Yeah.
Now, do you think from what you know about the books, you think Margot Robbie is a good choice for what would be like a character?
Vanessa (10:23.73)
Yeah, so I think she would. just I don't know who she would play because speaking of like older actresses, like in the book, the the main sisters are like young adults. So I don't know if they would cast her. But there's like plenty of other characters that like, you know, this is like fantasy. Right. So like people look a certain like they talk about in the book, like people look a certain age, but they're like a thousand years old. Right. So like
Lauren (10:27.487)
okay.
Lauren (10:37.984)
Interesting, okay.
Lauren (10:46.592)
Yeah. Yeah. Sure. OK. Yeah.
Vanessa (10:52.406)
She certainly could be one of these other characters because they don't really have an age or whatever. So yeah, I mean, I think it'd be cool. Who know? Exactly. Yeah, that too.
Lauren (10:56.008)
Yeah. Or maybe she's going behind the scenes directing or something like that. Yeah. Executive producer or whatever. Interesting.
Wilhelmina (10:59.606)
Yeah, pulling like a Reese Witherspoon where she's going to get the rights and then, yeah.
Vanessa (11:04.82)
Yeah, so who knows? So yeah, so I was super excited. I was like, I would love to see that in film, like on the set. So anyway, that's my share for today.
Wilhelmina (11:12.82)
that is going to happen. That book is so popular. it when it happens, who knows, but that will absolutely be made into a limited series or a movie. It's too popular.
Lauren (11:17.002)
Yeah.
Vanessa (11:22.316)
I mean, she's in contract with someone right now. I forget who, but no one has heard a peep about it in a long time. So nobody knows. Her characters are, it's just such crazy world building and it's just so much detail and so many characters. And she has been interviewed with author, Sarah J Maas, saying she wants it to be done right, basically. She's like, it's gotta be done right. And so she's being really picky about how it's done. anyway, that's.
Lauren (11:28.522)
Interesting. Yeah.
Lauren (11:43.446)
It'll take a while.
Wilhelmina (11:47.766)
No, that's kind of how Outlander was. Like she had a whole series before those came out because she was like, I'm not giving rights to these until it's going to be done well and right. Yeah.
Lauren (11:50.559)
It's true.
Vanessa (11:50.995)
yeah!
Vanessa (11:55.958)
the right way. I know I need to watch that and read that because I know it's on my list. I know it's on my list.
Lauren (11:57.44)
That's true.
Wilhelmina (11:59.574)
yes you do. Yes you do. I do. I try to convince everyone to... Season one, episode six, The Wedding. You're welcome, Bernie. Just, that's all I have to say. That's all I have to say. Watched it so many times.
Lauren (12:03.966)
I think we talk about this every trip and Wilhelmina, you recommend it to Vanessa.
Vanessa (12:07.167)
I know.
Teri (12:08.91)
Yeah.
Vanessa (12:11.394)
my gosh. I know. I know. I see. I seriously need to. All right. So now that we've shared our faith today, we're going to get into today's topic. So in the article that kicked off the discussion for today, one of the actors they mentioned is Demi Moore and specifically her role in a movie called The Substance, which none of us have watched yet, but will let me know you watched the trailer, correct?
Lauren (12:11.53)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (12:37.036)
I watched the trailer and I will be trying to get to see it in the next week. So I will report back when I see it. So it just came out, I think maybe this weekend, like this last weekend, yes.
Teri (12:44.13)
It just came out, correct? Just came out.
Vanessa (12:45.514)
Yes, it just came out. So the kind of gist of this movie is that she's an older actress who's snubbed for a role. So she decides to take a street drug that results in instantly making her more youthful. So the kind of conundrum here is that it's not like her body turns into this youthful version of herself, but it's more of like think matrix. So her older version is in like this coma status while her younger version is out living life. And of course,
there's a negative psychological side effect to using this drug. So the question that this movie basically produces is what lengths are women willing to go to to maintain a youthful appearance? And obviously there's going to be a difference between like Hollywood folks. Well, I shouldn't say obviously, maybe we'll all get each other's thoughts on that Hollywood versus kind of women in general. you know, what, what, what lengths are we willing to go to? And more importantly, what are the pressures that we're feeling from society in how we look? So obviously that's probably driving
Lauren (13:29.952)
there.
Vanessa (13:42.966)
the things that women are doing to keep a more youthful appearance. So I'm gonna throw it out to you guys. So what are some thoughts here about just the things that women are doing, starting off with Hollywood, like maybe how does that differ from kind of everyday women and the expectations?
Teri (14:01.36)
So one of my first thoughts I have in us discussing this topic is the difference in terms of access that we have to celebrities and their strategies, maybe for lack of a better word, compared to maybe 10, even 15, 20 years ago. I think in general, female celebs might be a bit more open about what they're doing.
Lauren (14:15.082)
Mm.
Teri (14:28.576)
versus trying to keep it more covert, but also in the era of social media and just we have so much more accessible at our fingertips than we did before in general as women, I think, and as women as you're aging. And so I think it does peak curiosity and sort of for like the everyday woman. And I think it brings what maybe was only available or people knew about in Hollywood and Beverly Hills.
and it's brought it to middle America. So I do think in general, access and even access to knowledge in addition to access to actual services has changed in addition to how we view aging and youth and all of that for women, if that makes sense.
Lauren (15:14.122)
Is that a good thing?
Teri (15:17.232)
I don't know. I think it's.
Lauren (15:19.04)
think that's the question we all struggle with, right?
Wilhelmina (15:21.238)
Yeah, because what we're talking about is how do women basically continue to stay and look young? That's the thing is women are considered to be still beautiful if they still look young. That's sort of the issue. Right. Men, gray hair, they start, yes, the silver fox, you just get more distinguished. Women, she looks great for her.
Vanessa (15:36.844)
which is different from men, right? Like, so that's.
Teri (15:39.756)
Mm -hmm.
Lauren (15:39.84)
Totally.
Vanessa (15:42.166)
Debonair.
Wilhelmina (15:50.296)
age because she has clearly done a lot with her face to keep her looking the same way she did 20 years ago. That's the difference. Which... No. No. No.
Lauren (15:58.932)
I think.
Teri (15:59.16)
or a version because
Vanessa (15:59.171)
But that's not new, right? Like that concept is not new. But what, Terry, you're talking about is the ability to then kind of chase that, right? That's kind of changed where maybe back in the day, that was something that only people in Hollywood, you know, or really rich people could kind of access. And now we see that, like you said, middle America can access that if they want to as well.
Teri (16:02.394)
Right.
Lauren (16:05.866)
out.
Teri (16:08.854)
Execute. Yeah, execute some of that.
Teri (16:20.175)
Right.
Lauren (16:25.91)
So I think there's a, go ahead. I think there's a difference between chasing after youthful appearance and figuring out ways to be healthy and cognitively aware as we get older, right? And I think they get really mixed together. And Hollywood specifically, I think there's definitely more of a focus for women on youthful appearance versus health and wellness, at least.
Teri (16:26.352)
Well, and I, yeah, no, no, go ahead.
Wilhelmina (16:44.728)
Mm
Wilhelmina (16:54.54)
Yes.
Lauren (16:55.39)
I think that's what the movie alone, the script would suggest. The fact that the script was even developed and this turned into a movie just kind of shows the difference between men and women in Hollywood and in general and aging.
Teri (16:55.983)
And I think.
Wilhelmina (17:10.188)
Mm -hmm.
Teri (17:11.632)
And I know that, you know, traditionally I remember learning in graduate school that typically women are attracted to power and status. If we're discussing heterosexual cis type of relationships where women are attracted to power and status and men are attracted to youthfulness. And those are the traits that have held up consistently over time. And that hasn't changed much. You know, we learned that 15, 20 years ago.
Wilhelmina (17:31.148)
Mm -hmm.
Teri (17:40.848)
that seems to have just magnified over to where we're at the point where little girls are wanting their Christmas lists are all Sephora items because eight to 12 year old girls are starting to chase youthfulness. And that's become at what point is it a hobby and fun to play around with mom's makeup versus are we trying, are there girls in college and in their early twenties?
Wilhelmina (17:51.831)
Mm -hmm.
Teri (18:08.048)
using retinol and using anti -aging products to the point where I actually heard on the news this morning that California is banning the sale of any beauty products that have active ingredients to girls under the age of 18. So things like vitamin C, retinol, anything that's considered an active ingredient because there's over -prolific use and it could actually be damaging their skin.
Wilhelmina (18:21.195)
Mm
Lauren (18:23.99)
Hmm.
Lauren (18:29.962)
Yeah, because they still have it in their skin. Okay. Terrible.
Wilhelmina (18:29.974)
Yes. Yeah, I've heard that. I've heard it's not good for them to use all of these serums because it's it's it's blocking kind of their natural. Yes. Yeah.
Vanessa (18:30.422)
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Lauren (18:38.89)
their net. Yes. So Terry.
Teri (18:42.0)
And is this pendulum swung so far that this is where we're at now? Where the cross, it's not just Demi Moore age women or women our age in their forties, where now it's women from age eight or nine girls, little girls from age eight or nine or maybe 18 all the way up through the lifespan. I don't know.
Lauren (18:53.642)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (19:00.977)
Women in their 20s are getting Botox, you know? Yeah.
Lauren (19:01.024)
But Terry...
Vanessa (19:03.234)
Well, yeah, so I was looking up the stats for Botox and it wasn't high. So like for that age group, it definitely wasn't high. Like the biggest consumers of Botox is 40 to 54, which that makes sense, right? But there was this group and I was like, I wouldn't even have thought there would have been a percentage, right? Like, why is there even a percentage? It's small, but yeah, there are some who are using.
Lauren (19:03.798)
Right.
Teri (19:14.799)
tricks.
Lauren (19:21.434)
I think you're calling it preventative Botox, which is kind of crazy. But Terry, you reference something, and it's interesting. You reference the research back from when we were in graduate school, and I'm sure it's still consistent about sort what the attraction piece. So men are attracted to youth, but is that why women are chasing a youthful appearance? I don't think so. I don't think women are doing it for men.
Wilhelmina (19:24.172)
Yes. Yeah.
Teri (19:43.834)
So do you know what, no, in fact, when we broached this topic, my very first initial automatic thought was the female gaze versus the male gaze. And who are you dressing for? Who are you getting ready for? Who are you doing it for? And I remember being younger and having someone older than me, maybe a family member say, no, you're dressing for the other women at the party, your outfit. And I remember at the time,
Wilhelmina (19:56.055)
Yes.
Lauren (19:56.394)
Hmm who are you doing it for? Yeah?
Vanessa (19:56.64)
Mm
Right. Yeah.
Vanessa (20:09.43)
Yeah, because they're the ones who's going to be looking at you. Yeah.
Lauren (20:09.856)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Teri (20:13.232)
And I thought, nah, and then this is maybe 10 or 15 years ago, my husband and I were getting ready to go out to dinner and I was wearing a polka dot blazer that I really liked. It was black with white, yes. It's black with white polka dots. I thought it was so cute and looked so trendy with whatever. And I wore it and I remember we went out to a couple's dinner. I wore it the whole night, came back and my husband waited a day or two. And then I think I went to wear it again somewhere else. And he was like,
Wilhelmina (20:22.456)
I know this place. I know this place.
Vanessa (20:23.516)
Hahaha
Wilhelmina (20:32.278)
You
Teri (20:42.96)
And he never, ever, ever comments on what I wear, ever. In the 20 plus years we've been together. And he said, I don't know about that blazer. It's just not... And I realized the blazer was not made for the male gaze. right, so what is chasing a more using Botox, dyeing your hair, wearing polka dot blazers versus not polka dot blazers? Who is that for?
Vanessa (20:57.196)
You
Lauren (20:57.223)
Right, right!
Wilhelmina (20:58.424)
Yes.
Lauren (21:02.442)
Right, right.
Yeah!
Wilhelmina (21:10.07)
Well, I always think about like, so men's magazines often have women on them. I mean, I'm talking like, we're talking like old school men's magazines, right? But like, yes, Maxim, things like that. And women's magazines also have women on them because women want to see women. yes, women are looking at other women to see how they look, to see how they dress. We're not dressing for men.
Lauren (21:20.694)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (21:21.186)
Max Maxim type. Yeah.
Vanessa (21:21.27)
Right. Yeah.
Vanessa (21:28.758)
their women. Yeah.
Lauren (21:29.44)
Right.
Wilhelmina (21:38.848)
I mean, we're not trying to look good for men. Sometimes we are, right? Like sometimes, sure. But like, I agree with you, Terry. Like it is women more often are looking at women than they are.
Lauren (21:39.478)
Right.
Right. Right.
Vanessa (21:42.592)
Right. Yes, obviously. Yeah.
Lauren (21:52.724)
And that might be slightly different than the reason women in Hollywood are doing anti -aging and things like that. They're doing that likely for their livelihoods, right? Right.
Wilhelmina (21:57.077)
Yes.
Vanessa (21:58.338)
yeah. Yeah.
They're not getting the job because they're, they, you know, are not looking a certain way, right? So like the roles usually like think James Bond, right? He like the young though, know, dashing, you know, spy, the young, you know, like then the woman's like young woman sidekick, right? So like that's historically kind of like Hollywood, right? So they're not getting the job, which is different. I mean, obviously, I think some women like, maybe that does make a difference for their job. But like the majority of women that's not playing a significant role, I would say I significant because
Teri (22:02.735)
Yes.
Lauren (22:06.901)
Right.
Right?
Vanessa (22:31.296)
I'm sure it does matter sometimes, whether we like it or not. People look at the way you look and they judge you or they like you better or,
Lauren (22:36.202)
Right.
Well, Pamela Anderson is referenced in that article, and she's getting all sorts of attention for not wearing makeup. Like, right?
Wilhelmina (22:47.37)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Vanessa (22:48.032)
now.
Teri (22:49.405)
Alicia Keys has not worn makeup for years now, think. Years. Performances, red carpets. Yes. Yeah. And I think that in general, never. And women though, also in Hollywood are likely used to having a certain amount of attention and that Hollywood is so fickle and that attention fades so quickly. And then it's how do I maintain that level of attention or how do get it back? Be I experienced at once.
Wilhelmina (22:52.172)
Years, years. Yeah, it was when she did the voice.
Lauren (23:00.096)
But men would never get that attention.
Teri (23:17.548)
and how do I get it back and how do I reclaim that? And I think that that has to be, like Lauren said, it's tied into both their livelihood. It's how they make money and pay bills and probably feed their kids and pay their mortgage. In addition to, it feels really good. And if they've had a taste of that, how do they, know, they chasing the dragon in a way? How do they get that back again? So I think it's reinforced for women in Hollywood from a couple different angles.
Vanessa (23:36.492)
Maintain that, yeah. Right.
Teri (23:45.114)
the livelihood as well as the attention piece.
Lauren (23:45.152)
All
Wilhelmina (23:47.19)
Well, and in Hollywood, you used to basically hit an age limit where you could play the leading lady and the cute little rom -com and the whatever until a certain age. And then you kind of disappeared until you came back as like the matron lead, like, yes, which was never a lead, which was never whatever. Whereas men kept being able to go on and have these roles. even, I mean, like, look at Yellowstone.
Vanessa (24:01.676)
The mom.
Wilhelmina (24:14.808)
right? Kevin Costner, he's 69. And he's, I mean, everyone's like, my gosh, he's so hot. He's so hot. Because and this continues to happen in men don't have to take a step back. Whereas women in the past have and I think that's happening less now. I think they're starting we're starting to see this like, wait, women can continue to stay like, be leading ladies all at all ages. But
Lauren (24:27.382)
Right.
Vanessa (24:32.694)
Yeah, definitely.
Wilhelmina (24:44.194)
Part of that is also they are continuing to try to stay youthful while they're doing that.
Vanessa (24:48.716)
Yeah. Well, was listening to somewhere on Instagram, there was like they were interviewing a person, plastic surgeon, and they were, I thought it was so interesting that the majority of like women who are coming in for things, like whatever the things may be, are attractive women who are trying to maintain the same look.
Right? So like, I've always been a very attractive looking woman and I want to maintain that because that's part of my identity. Right? Like I identify as a, you know, a good looking woman. And so then they were talking about like kind of the negative side of that, that the littlest things, the changes that they're experiencing, they want to fix it. And then you start to fix too many things. Right. And so, you know, I think they're part of it is about like, you know, how you identify with
Wilhelmina (25:26.242)
Mm -hmm.
Vanessa (25:37.612)
how you look, right? And that's not just Hollywood, like that any woman could experience that where it's like, you know, this is part of my identity of looking a certain way, whatever that may be. And I want to maintain that as I get older.
Lauren (25:48.778)
You know, it's interesting. was listening to, do you guys know who Kelly Stafford is? Matt Stafford's wife, Matt Stafford's the quarterback. He used to be the quarterback for the Detroit Lions, but he's over in Los Angeles now. So he's Los Angeles Rams quarterback. She has a podcast. And she just recently, within the last couple of weeks, was talking about, so she kind of is this line, okay? She's from the South. She really kind of prides herself on, and I think this is true.
Wilhelmina (25:56.29)
Mm.
Lauren (26:17.02)
on really kind of sticking with her roots, even though she's now in Hollywood. So she's like on this line where she lives in the same neighborhood as the Kardashians, like her kids are friends with Khloe Kardashian's kids, right? So she's like, but her family is from Georgia and they have these Southern roots and she's very close to all her siblings and her parents and talks about them a lot. Anyhow, she was talking a couple of weeks ago about coming clean about recent work she had done and how she went in.
Wilhelmina (26:43.159)
Hmm.
Teri (26:44.442)
Mm.
Lauren (26:46.134)
for a little bit of Botox. And she's, I would say she's mid to late 30s at this point. So she was saying she went in for like her forehead. And once she was there and it was like, you know, like a little boutique kind of medical spa and there was a woman working with her. So I'm not exactly sure of credentials, but like a nurse practitioner, nurse, whatever, working with her that as she's marking her face for Botox suggested a number.
What's it when it goes below then? It's fillers? Like if it's above the eyes, it's bowtie? Okay. So then she started suggested things below the eyes. And Kelly's saying she's never had this done. And she said what? All of sudden her face was a map with marks all over it. And she was acknowledging, like she got caught up in not pressure from this woman, but just in this, she's saying there's something that could be corrected about me.
Wilhelmina (27:16.706)
filler.
Lauren (27:40.508)
I'm not going to say no, I'm saying yes. And then all of a sudden she said, you know, she said her face was frozen, she didn't like it, she wanted to get it taken out, like all of these kinds of things. just the conversation was about kind of her regret and getting caught up in that. And it's really interesting, right? Because she is sort of one step into Hollywood with the people she kind of runs with in Los Angeles. But then she's also this woman of a certain age that is kind of struggling with that, maybe like the rest of us.
Vanessa (28:08.78)
think it's interesting that there's this expectation that women look a certain way. But then it's also this dirty secret if you do do Botox and filler. She's like, well, I have to come clean and tell you that I did this. And it's like, I don't know. I feel like there's an issue there with that. I I'm very much of the do what feels good to you sort of thing. So I don't feel like it should be a dirty secret if you choose to do that. I hope that society's pressure on women
Wilhelmina (28:15.372)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Lauren (28:15.646)
Yes. Yeah, I couldn't believe she was acknowledging it. Yes.
Wilhelmina (28:27.906)
Mm -hmm.
Vanessa (28:37.548)
changes over time and it's different. But like, I also feel like if that makes you feel good right now, right? Like, why does it feel like such a like, you know, like dirty secret to tell people that you, you know, you use Botox or like you use filler. But I also thinking of that person, like, I feel like that's such a terrible provider to go to. So I mean, in full disclosure, like I get Botox and the person I go to is so conservative.
Lauren (28:42.89)
Hmm. Yeah.
Lauren (28:59.286)
I know,
Wilhelmina (28:59.53)
Right, right.
Vanessa (29:05.918)
she would never ever suggest anything. Like she'll come in and be like, no, what are you thinking today? You know, like, and it's very much driven by whatever I say. It's not like here, let me make a bunch of suggestions for you. I that I don't. Right, perhaps, yeah. Like.
Lauren (29:07.466)
Yeah.
Lauren (29:19.486)
And I wonder if that's more of that Hollywood, like, assumptive kind of thinking of like, just assume you want all these things done.
Wilhelmina (29:19.661)
Bye.
Teri (29:24.858)
But, then how do you, and how do you differentiate trying to incorporate that as a woman into as your identity and formulating your opinion, looking at the marks on your face and saying, well, maybe I should, shouldn't versus are they trying to upsell me for their business and make more money so that is this real, right? Is it's also a business. It's a huge, probably bazillion dollar industry. So how are you as a woman sitting there by yourself with an expert?
Wilhelmina (29:41.538)
Mm -hmm.
Vanessa (29:42.262)
Right. Like, is this real? Like, yeah.
Lauren (29:47.936)
Wait. Right?
Vanessa (29:48.426)
huge business.
Wilhelmina (29:54.424)
Mm
Teri (29:54.928)
quote unquote, or self -proclaimed expert and trying to navigate, are they just trying to make another grand or whatever much it costs off of me versus would I look better with this?
Wilhelmina (30:05.132)
Well, and this reminds me, and now I'm wishing I had pulled it up, but I didn't even think about it until we got into this. There was an article that came out a couple of years ago. I don't know if it was New York Times. I'd have to find it. But it was this woman, and she was the journalist. And she went kind of undercover to a plastic surgeon. Do you know what? Yes. And said, and basically was like, should I do? And basically he like.
Vanessa (30:23.347)
I think I read that. I think I read that.
Wilhelmina (30:31.446)
sort of the same thing as what you were saying, Lauren, like she marked her all up. And she basically wrote a whole article about it. she said, it like broke my heart because at the very end she says, and yet now I look at myself and I see all of those marks and think, is that, should I? Whereas she went in to be like, this is so ridiculous. She never thought anything about it. But once he had done that,
Lauren (30:33.524)
marked your whole body.
Lauren (30:43.828)
Yeah.
Lauren (30:54.656)
she never thought.
Vanessa (30:59.355)
yeah.
Wilhelmina (30:59.764)
it made her start to question and she didn't do it, but she's like, I will never not see that now when I look at my body, look at my face. And that's so sad.
Lauren (31:05.76)
Well, and
Vanessa (31:09.984)
Yeah, no, that is sad.
Lauren (31:10.41)
Well, and so like Vanessa, you said, and I think it's a really good point, do what makes you feel good and what you want for you. But how do we know that that motive is clear when we have all of these influences muddying the water and it circles all the way back to what Terry said at the beginning of our access to what all of these people are doing is so much greater. It creates this false pressure, real and false pressure on all of us to say, no, I'm doing this because it makes me feel good.
Wilhelmina (31:17.762)
Yes.
Vanessa (31:20.574)
No, I don't think we do. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (31:21.238)
We don't. We do not.
Lauren (31:40.31)
It's like, what, am I? Or am I doing this because somebody else did it and I saw it I feel like I should and right?
Teri (31:41.892)
And I think we...
Vanessa (31:46.07)
Yeah, it's hard. think it's hard to like tease that out. Like how much of it is just you being like, this is something I want to do for myself versus like there's this ideal kind of way to be, you know, like I think that is hard. I do feel like some people are more kind of like lean one way more just kind of naturally than the other. Like I like I can vividly tell you, like as a kid, I was like loved makeup and there was no there was no social media then. So I was not watching YouTube or other people like
Lauren (31:52.886)
right?
Wilhelmina (31:57.751)
Yeah.
Lauren (31:57.824)
Like, what are we all chasing? I know.
Lauren (32:12.596)
Right.
Vanessa (32:14.474)
I just was fascinated by it. And I was like, and so like, I'm still like a big makeup girl. Like you all know, like I basically wake up with makeup on my face, right? Like, so, you know, I'm blush blind. I have blush blindness. like, but that's always been me, right? So like, but that's consistent with who I am, right? Like I've always kind of been into like makeup and all the things, right? So I do think like some people kind of are more probably...
Lauren (32:20.072)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (32:22.579)
You
Lauren (32:29.045)
Right, that's consistent with who you are, Ness.
Vanessa (32:38.644)
Inclined to go that route for lots of different reasons and then there's other people who don't feel so much But yeah, I think it's I think the water is muddy like I don't know like I think in my head like I'm doing this for me, but I know also that like there is this you know perception of women when you look look a certain way that like you know, you're like older like you know, and what do you know sort of thing even though you know, you would think that like as a woman like you you have all this wisdom right and it's I think that that's more of like how we perceive older men right like
this older doctor, this older person who's well known versus like an older woman. think there's a little bit sometimes of a negative, know, like, you up to date with, are you current? Do you know what's going on? Right. Like, so I think there's this, there's, yeah, I think it's hard to differentiate between the two and there's just a lot of pressures.
Lauren (33:10.038)
Right.
Wilhelmina (33:26.966)
Yeah.
Teri (33:27.312)
And the menu of options out there that you can do to your body, your face has never been greater. If you would have told anyone on this planet 15 years ago that people would be getting butt implants, I think, right, the BBL or whatever it's called, I don't think anyone would believe, it seems so absurd among other things. And so I just think the menu is, it just seems to be ever expanding.
Lauren (33:30.399)
Ugh.
Vanessa (33:41.581)
my god. my god.
Lauren (33:44.276)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (33:44.683)
No!
Vanessa (33:49.888)
Yes. But it's
Vanessa (33:55.234)
But it's not even just like Botox, filler, plastic surgery. Think about all the supplements and we all get sucked into this, right? Like, I mean, the supplements, the vitamins, the like, I mean, you know, even the like topical things like, you know, like my husband calls them my magic potions. He's like, you have another magic potion that's arrived because it's like, you know, all the things you put on your face, you know, there's retinol and there's, you know, this cream and that cream. So it's like...
Wilhelmina (34:00.486)
yes.
Teri (34:01.839)
Yes.
Lauren (34:13.841)
you
Wilhelmina (34:19.928)
It's ridiculous. put this like oil on every morning. That's like this tiny little thing. It's like over $100. And I'm like, this better be doing something in this. I'm not just putting like Vaseline on my face. Like, I'm like, no, no.
Vanessa (34:30.914)
hahaha
Teri (34:36.784)
And the thing is you don't have a way to know if it's not. So you don't have a way to say if I don't do these things, I'll look this way. And if I do do these things, I'll look this way. That's a total unknown.
Wilhelmina (34:48.94)
That's the thing that I think where I try to balance the like, okay, what do I want? What's me? What's outside of pressure? think the water is all muddy, I agree. And yet I try to, what I go with is like, what if there is something I could have done? Put this oil on, put this on, do this where it really did help, but you don't know. So it's all this banking on the like hope that it's doing something, hope that it...
you'll feel good in 10, 15, 20 years about how you look. probably we're negating a little bit of this. it probably more of it starts inside than it does outside. Like in terms of our self -esteem, how we feel about ourselves, and then anything else is like a bonus, right? Like if we actually feel good about ourselves, we feel like we can go for walks with our weighted vests. We can do these things. We can get up. We can, and then we,
Lauren (35:31.798)
100%.
Wilhelmina (35:48.536)
kind of can add on if we want, if that's something we want, great. But if we're doing that to feel better about ourselves and we kind of don't to start with, it's not gonna help.
Vanessa (35:58.228)
absolutely. I think you have to have like a certain level of like confidence and self -esteem. Yeah, like I think it starts from there because you can do all the things and feel terrible if you don't feel good. Yeah, absolutely. From the inside, you have to have some good self -esteem and confidence.
Teri (36:00.772)
Well said.
Lauren (36:01.93)
Yep.
Lauren (36:10.294)
And you know, every like few months that article comes out where they interviewed somebody that turned 105 and they're like, what's your secret? And they're like, I drink Coca -Cola and whiskey and smoke a pack a day. And you're like, okay, so none of this matters, right? It's all genetics. And if you won the genetic lottery, congratulations. Otherwise, like we're all just spitting into the wind. Yes, yes.
Wilhelmina (36:19.176)
huh.
Vanessa (36:19.712)
HAHAHAHA
Teri (36:20.08)
Smoke cigs. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (36:27.594)
you
Vanessa (36:29.858)
Yeah. Well, and speaking of genetics, is like, that is part of it too, right? Like if you're like people in your, like, you know, just generally like, you know, aging, some people age better than others, like the more melanin you have in your skin, the better you age, right? So like, there are those factors too that contribute to it. My grandma's like, what, 96? And you know, she's 96 years old. I can tell you that like, she doesn't do, I would say the only thing that I can tell you that she does that's like, I would guess is kind of healthy is like, she's never been a big drinker.
Lauren (36:41.867)
Yeah.
Lauren (36:48.17)
Yes, that's a good example.
Vanessa (36:58.466)
So every once in a while she'll be like, I feel like having a beer. And she'll just drink a little, almost like a shot glass worth of beer. Or she'll be like, I feel like wine. So she just drinks this little bit. So that was the only thing. And she never smoked. She was never a smoker. So that's the two things. And she's always active. She's always going somewhere. She's always doing something. We always joke around and say, man, this woman, she's always got something to do. And I'm like, what are you doing? You're 96.
Lauren (37:04.298)
Like a cup of beer.
Teri (37:11.6)
Hmm, that's a big one.
Lauren (37:17.524)
moving. Yeah.
Lauren (37:26.134)
But isn't that interesting? You didn't mention a single procedure, a single expensive serum, like anything like that.
Vanessa (37:31.938)
well, no. she so well, so no, that's funny that you say that. So like, no, she was like, she she's ponds. She's from the ponds era. So every night she puts her ponds on her face, you know, so like, still does. Yeah, sorry. Ponds and screen cream. Yes. So like, she still does her ponds. yeah, she still does her ponds. But like, I was thinking more of like her longevity of being 96 and whatever, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, so definitely.
Lauren (37:38.262)
yes!
Wilhelmina (37:38.936)
I love
Teri (37:40.334)
Mm -hmm.
Lauren (37:43.529)
Well...
Teri (37:44.708)
which is face cream for those who might not know what that is. It's a face cream. Yep.
Lauren (37:49.13)
Yes. I love it.
Lauren (37:55.444)
Yeah, but all of that is kind of goes hand in hand, right?
Wilhelmina (38:01.592)
I feel like people will often come up to me now and they're like, what do do with your face? And I'll kind of say like, but I'm like, I had horrific acne and super oily skin all of my adolescence and now it's paying off. was like, was like years of oily skin. Yeah. I have like so much oil. All there.
Lauren (38:16.896)
I paid, all right. I've done my time.
Vanessa (38:16.961)
WAH!
Vanessa (38:21.346)
It's preserving your beauty!
Lauren (38:24.447)
Right? Right?
Wilhelmina (38:28.344)
And, and some Botox, know, oily skin and some Botox. There we go. That's my secret. You have it live here today.
Lauren (38:35.114)
I love it.
Vanessa (38:36.002)
All right, ladies, any more thoughts on our topic for today?
Lauren (38:43.742)
I'm just happy these people are getting in the news and getting roles. That's great, right? It's great.
Wilhelmina (38:46.57)
I know, me too.
Vanessa (38:47.04)
Absolutely. Yeah, I'm glad that there's I'm glad that we're having this discussion. I'm glad that like Hollywood is seems to be changing there. There's kind of tune on things and it'll be interesting to see. So Wilma and I have daughters, but like, you know, to see how things change for them, like when they're our age and to see, are we seeing more Pam Anderson's without, you know, the makeup on? And that's that's the new kind of thing to do. Like, yeah, that's the new normal. Like,
Teri (38:47.546)
Same.
Lauren (38:50.846)
Yeah.
Lauren (38:54.483)
Thank
Lauren (39:00.747)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (39:00.822)
Mm
Wilhelmina (39:11.788)
Normal. Yeah.
Lauren (39:12.566)
for more eight -year -olds at Sephora.
Vanessa (39:15.612)
or five -year -olds at Sephora. my goodness. All right, well, thank you for joining us today on The Shrinkdown and we hope that you will join us next time so we can share some more of our thoughts with you on what's going on in pop culture.
Lauren (39:16.911)
Right, right. It could go either way.
Wilhelmina (39:17.472)
What?
Teri (39:18.67)
Right.
Wilhelmina (39:21.553)
Love.