Swell AI Transcript: 135. Ryan Rogers FINAL.mp3
Ryan Rogers:
I think what's really tough is like the people who are in all the positions of power, like professors and administrators, those are your true believers. I mean, it could take like a generation or more to get back to graduate programs that put therapy first. I hope that there's like enough people that are really devoted to actually helping people get better, that that tradition will continue. But I don't know that it's coming from universities right now.
SPEAKER_01: You must be some kind of therapist.
Stephanie Winn: Today I'm speaking with Ryan Rogers. Like many of you in my audience, he is currently in a graduate program studying for a master's in counseling psychology and shares a lot of the concerns that we talk about on this show. We met on X and I thought he might have some interesting things to say to represent the perspective of those who understand what it's like trying to pursue a master's in counseling. in the 2020s. He's also about to release a book called The Woke Mind, The Twisted Psychology of the Social Justice Movement, which will be on Amazon. It is the sixth in a series he's written on social justice fanaticism. So Ryan obviously has a lot to say on this topic, and I'm excited to delve into it today. Ryan, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me.
Ryan Rogers: Thanks for having me.
Stephanie Winn: I just realized I said delve. That is, that is, I'm not AI. I know that's a red flag that, you know, something was written by AI, but that just actually came out of my mouth. Have you heard that one?
Ryan Rogers: No, about AI, that it catches certain words?
Stephanie Winn: Yeah, there are certain words. Like, if I have AI, I write my show notes. It's, we delve into this and this and that. You and I have chatted online a little bit. And just to sort of presence the issue from the perspective of our listeners, as I was saying before we started recording, I hear from a lot of people who are either graduate students in counseling psychology, or thinking about going to counseling psychology grad program but looking for one they can trust, or maybe working on their internship hours. And they're just shocked and disturbed by the quality of education, or I guess you could say indoctrination, happening in the mental health field right now. But a lot of them are afraid to speak out about it. They, obviously, they don't have the power to speak out about it. They're just a little newbie and, you know, saying something could potentially result in loss of opportunities and not being able to even get started. So for having the courage to talk about what you're seeing, can we just kind of start with what compelled you as someone this early in your counseling career to speak out about what you were seeing?
Ryan Rogers: Yeah, so my work background and my personal background is in addiction. That's been something that I've had to overcome in my personal life and then in my work life, helping other people overcome that. And because of being on that path, I've seen a whole lot of friends and people very close to me die from overdose, heroin, fentanyl, and suicide as well. And that's what inspired me to become a counselor is I think there's like very seriously, because I've seen a lot of the damage that can be done. And kind of getting into grad school, it felt like the program itself was not taking it all that seriously. One of my classmates, I think summed it up best is she's someone who would describe herself as very liberal. And she said, this program is nothing but fluff and wokeness, you know? And I think, you know, both the, the not taking the counseling part seriously and the, you know, heavy handed politics, I think rubbed me the wrong way because I think it should be taken a lot more seriously than it is.
Stephanie Winn: And the consequences of that are very real for you. As someone with personal lived experience of people around you being affected by overdoses and suicides, you know what happens when at-risk people do not get the mental health treatment that they so desperately need. And so it seems like one of the biggest red flags for you early on in the process was that grad school, the program didn't seem to be taking itself seriously, understanding the actual burden that would soon be on the shoulders of the trainees.
Ryan Rogers: Yeah, yeah, it's true. I think in my first semester, I took my diversity class and that was like very eye-opening to me. I had this, this idea of what grad school was going to be like, and I'm going to have to be on my toes, you know, and everything. And my professor for my diversity class said that your primary objective as a therapist is to become a political activist so you can quote, burn it all to the ground. Like that's, that's your primary goal for a therapist. And, you know, that just, I actually went to her office because it really bothered me. And I said, listen, like I used to be like pretty radically left wing. I did a lot of the political activism stuff. And I said, look, I've already been there. That's not really why I'm here. Like, I just want to be a therapist. I just want to help people one-on-one with their mental health. And she said, that's too bad. If you want to be a therapist, you have to be a political activist. And, you know, I'm not really sure where to go with that.
Stephanie Winn: They're really saying the quiet part out loud now.
Ryan Rogers: Yeah, saying the quiet part out loud. Yeah.
Stephanie Winn: I mean, we've noticed people with an activist bent taking over a lot of industries and educational departments. But I feel like they used to try to hide it better, hide their activism with it, you know, at least pretend they have an interest in the actual art and science of psychotherapy, because it really is both an art and a science.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
Stephanie Winn: Yeah. But but now it's just they're very out there and open with this idea that they're an activist first and a therapist second, and that therapy is really just a vehicle for their activism.
Ryan Rogers: I think one of the things that kind of gets missed about, you know, you hear the word multiculturalism and diversity a hundred times every time you walk onto campus. And I think one of the things that gets missed is like people from other cultures, like I have no idea what, like what unique needs they might have. Cause we never actually talk about that. We say those words a lot, but we never actually focus on it. And I went to the same same diversity professor. I went to her office and I was like, I was working as a tech at a mental health facility. I was like, listen, I've got, you know, Filipino man with autism, or, you know, gay black man, like I have like multicultural, like diverse clients that I could You know, I could use some information on how to work with them better. And I said, I haven't gotten any of that in this class. And she said, well, that's not what this class is about. And like the class is called counseling the culturally diverse, like that's the name of the class. And I said, well, what is the class about? And she said, it's about theory, like critical theory. That's the purpose of the class.
Stephanie Winn: It's like, the real question is, what do I need to know about this person's culture that would help me contextualize the challenges that they're bringing into the therapy room? Like, I just did an interview with Malka Shaw the same day that you and I are recording this, but it'll come out a week apart or so. And she specializes in, well, she's Jewish, and so she does cultural competency trainings on Judaism. that being an example of a population where there might be things from their faith-based teaching or from their ancestral trauma that have an impact that a therapist should know to be culturally competent with a Jewish client. And here you are saying, well, what do I need to know about the Filipino culture? Or what do I need to know about any given culture that is, of course, going to be relevant to the counseling process, is going to be more relevant, of course, for a first-generation immigrant than a third, But it might contextualize whether something that raises a red flag for you is considered normal within that person's culture, or if that's a really particular quirk of that person's specific family that deviates from the culture. And of course, that's going to inform the questions that you ask and the tone that you take. There are real consequences to substituting actual cultural competency training with this woke critical theory stuff. I have a suspicion as to why that is, and I want to hear yours. I'll just lay mine out there. My suspicion for why in a multicultural counseling class, they don't actually teach you any cultural competency is that if they were to actually go there, and look at what do you need to know about different cultural backgrounds and how they inform people's values. Some of what they discover through that process, some of these woke teachers might conflict with their deeply held beliefs about things like privilege and oppression. For example, white liberals in the US are obsessed with black victimhood, for example. Are those same white liberals willing to see that many African-Americans are actually quite conservative, and that they're very religious. That would be a conflicting belief. And if we look at conservatism, or religiosity, or things like that coming from other cultures, suddenly you can't apply that same black and white thinking of privilege and oppression to understanding your culturally diverse client anymore.
Ryan Rogers: Yeah, I mean, that's a really good point. I think if you were to take these ideas seriously, that would be considered very offensive for these affluent white liberals to be speaking on behalf of all these minorities. Because whether you look at defund the police or immigration issues, they're very much a white liberal position, whereas you have much more nuanced positions from Black and Hispanic people. And a lot of times, especially on gender roles, LGBTQ issues, they tend to be more conservative. And so it's, it's like, you know, let, let me speak for you and on your behalf. Um, I, I, I agree with that. And I, I would say like part of it also, at least in my program is you don't touch on these issues because you, you don't understand them. Like there's like a lack of kind of deeper knowledge. I remember in one class we were talking about going over an example with like a white male therapist and a Latina woman with anxiety. And the point of the example was that the white man's doing it wrong. And I raised my hand, I was like, okay, I more than willing to admit, there's a lot of stuff I don't know, I probably will do it wrong. What's the correct way to counsel this woman? And she said, we're not gonna get into that, but we were supposed to get into breakout groups and talk about our privilege and oppression. And fortunately for me, there was two women, one was from Mexico and one, her parents were from Mexico. And I was like, listen, y'all gotta help me out. Explain to me how anxiety manifests differently in Latino women, because there are some differences. And so for the next 20 minutes, they gave me just a complete, very thorough rundown. And in that 20 minutes, I learned more about multiculturalism than in two years of the program.
Stephanie Winn: Wow. So you had to rely on other students. Yeah. I bet these women, they call themselves Latina and not Latinx.
Ryan Rogers: Yeah. It was kind of funny. The woman from Mexico, my professor at one point said something like, you know, you're oppressed as a Latinx woman. And she goes, first of all, I'm not Latin anything. I'm just Mexican. Like she just, that sounded absurd to her. And she goes, secondly, I'm not oppressed. I have a maid back in Mexico, you know, just listening to this woman, like, just like all the professors narratives kind of collapse when you hear her talk.
Stephanie Winn: Yeah, I, you know, I've spent time in Mexico. And there, if I can just riff on this for a while, since since we're talking about Mexico. Now, I remember having this moment during a trip to Mexico a few years ago, where I just kind of felt this like, American anxiety seeping out of my body as I was laying on the beach. And I was just kind of picking up on the chill vibes of all the Mexican families on the beach. And And sometimes you have to get far enough away from something to have a perspective on it. So it was like being outside of the US, I could kind of feel things about my own American culture from a distance. One thing I picked up on is there is just this kind of perfectionism and drive in American culture that you just don't feel in Mexico. And one manifestation of that is in addition to having it all and wanting it all and being the best at everything in American culture, there's also a need for moral superiority that goes with that. I want the world served to me on a silver platter along with the illusion that I don't commit any harm, that my existence doesn't require other things to die, the cycle of life, right? And in Mexico, there's just, and it's funny that I say this because Mexico is where I first decided to be vegetarian as a child because we were staying, this is a different Mexico story, but we were staying with a family, the sort of family that would have maids and houseguests. I had to go with a mom to the market and get a chicken with actual feathers on it and watch her pluck it and that made me decide to go vegetarian for many years. It's that integration between life and death and the messiness of life that you find in Mexico and I'm sure many other cultures that you just feel that American perfectionism drip away. I feel like that's somehow connected to the wokeness because the wokeness is all about I want everything in a push of the button, including to be shored up in my narcissistic fantasy that I am a perfect, morally upstanding human being. I feel like people in Mexico just don't have that.
SPEAKER_01: You don't feel it.
Stephanie Winn: You know what I mean? That's my observation. I don't know.
Ryan Rogers: I don't know if you read any John McWhorter. Yes. Other people have compared this to a religion where it's like, You know, it's kind of interesting, like part of your good deeds is calling out the other sinners. You know, that's what gives you like kind of moral credit, you know, call out or cancel or, you know, label something problematic. Like the first one to label something problematic, like that's huge bonus points. It's a race. and it's it's it's rigged like when when you look at the definitions of microaggressions it's so broad and so vague that pretty much anything could be offensive and so it's like very low risk to call something offensive you can just pick any movie that's out right now or any song and you know say it's problematic it's like six degrees of separation you could somehow tie it back to either racism or sexism or something
Stephanie Winn: You're putting on a certain filter to look at the world through, like putting on a colored pair of glasses and seeing everything as that color. And the irony that this is happening in counseling psychology, because I feel like as a field overall, if there's anyone who should understand the power of perception, the power of looking through a certain filter, the power of confirmation bias, or the faultiness of black and white thinking that it's us, and yet, here we are.
Ryan Rogers: And you know, like CB, CBT and dbt have a principle around reality testing. Like something's bothering me. I have this thought that something is going wrong. Someone doesn't like me or something like that. Let's, let's look at the facts, check the facts. And that's considered like offensive to the social justice worldview. It's like, if you're offended, then offense happened, you know, that's, that's the end of it.
Stephanie Winn: Yeah, there's a lot to be said from the critical social justice worldview about how CBT gaslights trauma victims. And I'm sure if, yeah, if the therapist is bad enough, they could. But that's not really the point.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
Stephanie Winn: And so when people are an activist first and a therapist second, at what point do they start eroding the foundations of these theories?
Ryan Rogers: Yeah. And I mean, kind of from my perspective, you're creating unnecessary suffering. If I had a white male client who was paranoid that the government was out to get them, it's like, okay, let's reality test this and figure out, so we can kind of relieve some of that anxiety and stress. But if it's, I'm worried about systemic racism or the patriarchy or something like that, it's like, you have to affirm that.
Stephanie Winn: Well, it is quite possible to see it everywhere if you're choosing to see it everywhere. And now there's this expectation that therapists should join and affirm their patient's worldview. Let me back up a second. I mean, I still want to get the lay of the land of what it's like for you being in grad school right now, because you are representing not only your own perspective, but probably I think a lot of listeners will hear themselves in you, people who are in similar circumstances. Can I just ask, I mean, you gave a really stark example right at the beginning of this kind of BS multiculturalism class that didn't actually teach cultural competency. You also noticed that you're Teachers didn't seem to understand their responsibility of a professional to potentially make a difference in whether someone lives or dies. So those are some really stark examples of the problem right up front. I'm curious, is there anything good left in counseling grad programs?
Ryan Rogers: I've had a couple decent professors and I've met some decent people who were students in the program. There was one professor who didn't seem to care about teaching at all. She just played YouTube videos every day. We didn't do anything. One day she would play videos of a woman applying makeup while talking about serial killers. just random different stuff. But on the last day of class, she goes, this is how you open a private practice. And she just gave us like, you know, two hours worth of details. And that was like really helpful. So so there is like some helpful things. But, you know, to borrow from my friend in the program, most of it is fluff and wokeness.
Stephanie Winn: What was the justification for using so many YouTube videos
Ryan Rogers: So that was my abnormal psychology class. And it would be just random, like Britney Spears. And she'd play a YouTube video of Britney Spears saying something crazy. And then she'd pause the video. And she'd go, wow, crazy, huh? That's how we learned about mental disorders. And we listened to Kanye West saying crazy stuff. And that's how we learned abnormal psychology.
Stephanie Winn: So very heavily reliant on pop culture.
Ryan Rogers: Yes, yeah.
Stephanie Winn: That feels really intellectually lazy. Did she actually have any experience? I mean, if you're teaching an abnormal psychology class, I would think that you would have had experience in like either, you know, forensic psychology, working in prisons, working with people who are institutionalized due to psychosis, you know, maybe a lot of experience with some really rare disorders.
Ryan Rogers: Did she have that experience? She has her own private practice, so I don't know what other experience she has. That's really not that uncommon. There's been several classes that I've had in grad school where if you signed up for the class, you got an A. There was nothing that you had to do. One class, the professor, actually several classes, the professor didn't teach at all. He would just break you up into small groups and say, discuss the material amongst yourselves. That type of teaching is not that uncommon from the professors.
Stephanie Winn: That's really scary. Again, I'm thinking about what would good qualifications be for specifically an abnormal psych teacher, knowing that she made it to private practice, doesn't really put my mind at ease. I want to know what gives her unique expertise in abnormal psychology. I'm in private practice. I don't think that I could teach an abnormal psychology class. So gosh, the quality of instruction is just getting worse and worse. Can I ask, how long ago did you get your bachelor's in psychology?
Ryan Rogers: So I dropped out many years ago because of my addiction. And I went back and finished in 2022 in psychology and then immediately started my master's.
Stephanie Winn: If you don't mind, when did you start your bachelor's? Because you did both portions of your bachelor's in psychology many years ago and then some very recently.
Ryan Rogers: So I had a different major. So I did all my psychology stuff recently.
Stephanie Winn: Oh, OK. All right. I was hoping to kind of compare and contrast, but that's OK.
Ryan Rogers: I mean, just, just the feel of campus was so different. Like the type of things, you know, it was, it was shocking to me going, going back to campus, being on a college campus that I was 33 years old, I think when I went back and, you know, back in, back in my day, it was, you know, who's chipping in for the keg this weekend, you know, who, who has a crush on who that's the kind of thing students talked about. And I remember, like, it was just this one shocking moment where students were all talking about how one of the professors was a fascist Nazi because she said that bathrooms should be segregated based on biological sex instead of gender identity. And I remember thinking, like, I'm in a different place right now.
Stephanie Winn: Did you have any idea what you were getting into?
Ryan Rogers: I had no clue, no clue about any of this stuff. You know, just the almost like paranoia around identity issues. Just, it was really shocking to me.
Stephanie Winn: So what do you feel like you have to do? I mean, as a mature, grounded individual with your own lived experience of addiction recovery, as someone who has lost people to suicide, you're trying to get into counseling because you want to help addicts. You want to help people at risk of suicide. You want to help people with serious problems. And here you are in this program that's all fluff and woke, as you said. What are you doing to supplement your education?
Ryan Rogers: So I have a very good therapist myself. And like, I, I've learned a lot through, through that process. I'm connected to a lot of good, good people, you know, through the industry here where I live. And I, I am a voracious reader. I love reading on all the different kinds of topics. Like lately it's been psychology and counseling and trying to understand that as best I can. And I would say most of the book knowledge has come from like personal reading and not from class.
Stephanie Winn: I get that. I feel like it's easier for me as someone at this phase of my career to say that, yes, I meet my continuing education requirements, but I learn more from audiobooks and podcasts than I do from technically, you know, CEUs. But to know that someone is suffering their way through grad school, paying for it, investing in it, taking it seriously, trying to build a career, and still feels like this is just going through the motions and that their real learning is elsewhere, that's really disconcerting.
Ryan Rogers: Yeah. I mean, this is very similar from what I've heard from people in other types of programs. I'm in an LPC, but I've heard this about marriage and family, social work, different kinds of things. It sounds like this is not that uncommon for this type of helping profession, so to speak. I actually I think it was like two semesters in, I thought this, this program's a joke. I'm not learning anything. This is a tremendous waste of time and money. And so I dropped out to try to go to like a cheaper online program. And, and I went to Liberty University, which is like very conservative Christian university for, for one semester. And then they told me they weren't going to take my credit. So I transferred back. But even at Liberty, which I think of that as like one of the most conservative schools in the country, it was very much rooted in diversity, equity, inclusion, social justice, like that's all baked into the curriculum. I mean, like in my spiritual counseling class, they said, you know, liberation theology, which is kind of quasi Marxist is like the really the appropriate way to be a Christian. And I just thought that was bizarre.
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Stephanie Winn: This is so different from what my own process has been like, because I feel like working as a therapist really helped me mature and evolve in my capacity to understand the human psyche, the human spirit. You know, to work with people across demographic lines, people who had different similarities and differences, with me if you're looking at the demographics or the so-called identity, but working as a therapist you see the uniqueness of that individual, their human spirit, the choices that they make in how to deal with the cards that they were dealt. And I always felt like that was what made the counseling process so rewarding, right? That that person might be different from you and all of these external appearances or cultural markers, but they're struggling with human issues and the really beautiful thing is how they choose to face those choices in their lives, right? And that's where I would find, I guess, where I felt like I had common ground with my clients is, you know, seeing how they're handling their suffering. And so I feel like I matured so much in that role as a therapist, finding our common humanity. and finding respect for the deeper values that drive people.
Ryan Rogers: Yeah. I mean, like that just seems just like painfully obvious common sense to me, but that would be like considered offensive in my program. Like the idea of, you know, common humanity that we're like all have this, this thing that we share, like that you shouldn't judge people based on, you know, these identity markers and, and, you know, you should treat people as individuals. Like the, the mindset is more like you should primarily judge people based on those identity categories. you know, and always be cognizant of how different you are. Like looking for similarities is somehow like connected to white supremacy or something like that.
Stephanie Winn: It's like they pick and choose what they want to describe about any given culture. So earlier we were talking about the lack of cultural competency training, the lack of looking at anything that might be threatening to their narrative. So they cherry pick, right? They say, that interest in our common humanity is a value of white culture, and therefore it's an indicator of white supremacy. But they're cherry-picking evidence that that is a uniquely white value because they're going to ignore… So I spent a lot of time around Indian people in my early 20s because I went through a phase where I was very interested in Eastern spirituality. and I would go to Hindu temples and meet Indian people who are like, oh, you must have been one of us in a past life. That was their mentality. They believe in reincarnation. When they see this little white girl who wants to go to the temple and chant, They're like, oh, you must have a connection somewhere. There was no offense taken. It wasn't considered cultural appropriation. It was considered cultural appreciation. And I find there's something I can point to about Indian culture. It doesn't mean I know how every single Indian person on the planet feels. But I can say, hey, here's the thing about Indian culture. Hindus believe in reincarnation. And so when people who aren't necessarily Indian or Hindu take an interest in their culture. Some of them just assume that there's, you know, that you were that in a past life. I don't see them taking offense. I don't see them saying, you know, like, Do you know Darryl Wing Sue?
Ryan Rogers: No. He's a counselor educator and writes a lot of these diversity books. And I remember he wrote the one that we use. And there's this one line about microaggressions, about just a bunch of examples, like never ask an Asian woman what she eats for dinner, and never ask a gay man about his sex life, and all this kind of stuff. And I was thinking, Like I've done a lot of these things before. And like, if anytime I've asked someone from a different culture, like, what do you eat? They're like, Oh, come over. Like, we'll have, we'll have dinner, you know, like, like I ask and they open their world to me, you know, or, you know, asking about like, about gay men is like how that helped me overcome like a lot of my stigmas, you know? And I feel like if you were to take literally all the things that they're telling you, you're going to wall yourself off from, from other types of people.
Stephanie Winn: Yeah, I once asked a Greek client about Greek food, and then the only problem was that they were inviting me over for dinner. I'm like, oh, well, I can't come over. Thank you. I mean, I'd really love to because Greek food is amazing. Yeah, I mean, all these rules seem like they're coming from such a place of ignorance. It's really sad to hear this. I mean, I want to find, like, maybe it's a little premature in the interview to be looking for hope. I guess I'm just wondering, like, If this is how bad it's gotten, where do we go from here? Well, let me ask you this. Okay, so how are your classmates reacting to this? Because I've heard a lot of people express a concern that the nature of the way that these programs are run now is kind of weeding out the good people and only admitting the activists.
Ryan Rogers: So I'm going to guess on these numbers. This is like a ballpark guess, but I would say there's probably like 10% of the people that are roughly like me that are like, this, this wokeness is ridiculous. And I would say 10% of like, are like your hardcore true believers and about 80% just kind of go along with it. Cause it's like the right answer, you know. I remember there was one professor, this is slightly different, she was talking about how terrible Texas was and America was because they're putting limitations on transitioning minors. And this one woman raises her hand, she's like, well, what if the minor changes their mind later or they have regrets? And she goes, Huh. I never thought about that. You know, it's like, it's like, you know what the right answer is, but you don't know what the issue is. And I think like a lot of people, it's just like, I want to get a graduate degree. I want to go into this profession. Like I know what to regurgitate on my essay or for the test or whatever. And I think most people just haven't really thought too much about it. You just know, like diversity is the right answer, you know.
Stephanie Winn: God help us. What, what are you learning? What are they teaching about? the meat of the work, the actual therapeutic relationship in the counseling process.
Ryan Rogers: So the only class where I had like really, really good, like applicable stuff was my skills and techniques class. And, you know, every, every week you're doing like a actual live session, you know, with like a mock session, I guess, with, with one of your classmates and you're, you know, employing skills, like every, every class period. And like, to me, it feels like, you know, out of a 60 hour program, that was three hours. I feel like if you're not going to bother teaching us theory, then just do skills the rest of the time.
Stephanie Winn: That was only three hours?
Ryan Rogers: My skills and techniques class was three hours. Yeah.
Stephanie Winn: Three hours? You mean three hours a week?
Ryan Rogers: Yeah. Three credit hours.
Stephanie Winn: Three credit hours. Okay. I'm like, all right. Yeah. I mean, that should be the bulk of it, right?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
Stephanie Winn: Yeah. I guess the assumption is that you get a lot of that practice during practicum and internship hours. Yeah, but all right, let's let's bring it home to some things that you brought up earlier. The topic of suicide, it's you know, it's what's at stake. It's our responsibility, suicide prevention. So what are you being taught about that?
Ryan Rogers: Almost nothing. I got upset one class, I didn't say anything, but a professor, he didn't say suicide, he said he unalived himself.
Stephanie Winn: No, not the professors talking like that.
Ryan Rogers: I hate that phrase. The professors talk like a Gen Z kid on TikTok. Oh no. It feels like for something like that, you should take it very seriously. And I just, it's either ignored or it's treated like that.
Stephanie Winn: How old is your oldest professor?
Ryan Rogers: So I have one professor in his fifties and then all my other professors are late twenties, early thirties.
Stephanie Winn: That's part of the problem.
Ryan Rogers: I think like all of them, as far as I know, went straight from like master's to PhD to start teaching. Like, so they have like very little real experience, like as therapists.
Stephanie Winn: They need some elder clinicians in there. Yeah. One of my favorite teachers, I'm just going to give him a shout out, David Akulian, if you ever discover my podcast, I still love you. I adored my teacher, David Akulian, so much. He was probably at least 60. He's got to be retired by now, I would think. He was my teacher for child and family, two separate classes. A lot of my best instructors were senior clinicians. They'd been doing this for a long time. David was a really intuitive teacher. He taught very much through the Socratic method. He would present Basically the presenting problem to us, you know family comes in mom saying this dad saying this kids behavior is this What do you think is going on here and just really get us to? think and there's something so Classical about that educational process, but so alive and fresh at the same time and you know, I I also had a teacher I can't remember her name, but she was probably in her 50s and I remember The first day of class, she came in and sat silently and waited for all of us to take our seats. And there was a piece of paper that was handed out around our tables or something asking us to basically write what we imagined about her. So it was a lesson in transference, basically. It was like, as she's sitting here, what do you think of her? And for me, I was like, she makes a lot of money. She plays tennis. Like I had my ideas about her already that same lady. I've told this story on this podcast before so forgive my repetitiveness for long-term listeners, but One day she had us, she did have us break out into groups, basically separating the LGB from the straight people. And this was sometime like 2011 or 12 maybe. So, you know, just as wokeness was starting to take over mainstream culture. But there was this one classmate who was the wokest of them all. And I now imagine that like everyone in grad programs is like this one girl. But she basically was heterosexual, but wanted to identify as queer. She wanted to go be with the queers. That was because of her identity or whatever. And the teacher was like, no, no, Kate, you're straight. Go join the straight people. And that would not fly now. Now, in a grad program, the teacher would say, everyone who identifies as queer, go this side of the room. And there'd be like two people on the other side, right? So I mean, these are a few of the memories that come to mind. I did have some problems in my grad program. There are things that I objected to. But it saddens me to hear that they're not, the administration isn't thinking about making sure that, I mean, for all this talk of diversity, like what about age diversity? What about having senior clinicians with 20, 30, 40, 50 years of experience coming to maintain the healing ethos of the tradition? And what happens when you just have a bunch of academics sitting around teaching other people who have so far only had academic experience? When counseling is really, it's taught through apprenticeship.
Ryan Rogers: Yeah, and I would say the academic side is probably overrated as well. One of my professors, his research was in animated Spider-Man at the University of Phoenix. That's some of the research backgrounds that you'll see. What does that have to do with counseling? What's that?
Stephanie Winn: What does that have to do with counseling psychology?
Ryan Rogers: I think it was like how to employ, how to employ Spider-Man in the counseling office, like something like that. No. Yes. You're kidding me. Like published in a journal and everything. Yeah. But I will say like I had a really rigorous program for undergrad for psych and like all my professors were like you were describing like really Socratic, like very rigorous, you know. And so I really appreciate like having that solid foundation before I came to grad school, you know, because like I didn't learn anything in most of my classes.
Stephanie Winn: So the skills and techniques class was the one where you actually learned counseling. And what about, I mean, theory. So when it comes to theory, you were taught a lot of critical race theory. What about actual counseling theories?
Ryan Rogers: My theory class was interesting. I mean, I don't know what your stance is on CBT. I know it's not like a cure-all for everything, but it's got a ton of evidence behind it. I think it should be taught. And we just didn't cover CBT because the professor forgot to put it on the syllabus. And it's just like, it was like that. I mean, you know, I remember he was talking about, you know, at the beginning, you talk about like Freud and Jung. And he was talking about like Carl Jung. And I, he told us at one point, he hadn't even read the textbook. And he said, at the end of talking about Jung, he lectured for like five minutes, he said, Jung was a sexist and a racist. And I was like, Well, I mean, Jung consulted like a lot of anthropologists. Like, I feel like he was really trying to get a multicultural perspective. And Jung was the one who gives us the idea that everyone has a masculine and feminine side. You know, I was like, I feel like he was pretty forward thinking for his day. And he goes, well, he was a white man who lived a long time ago, so he was sexist and racist, you know? And it's just like, that's kind of the attitude for all of theories. And yeah.
Stephanie Winn: I feel like I can hear Jung rolling in his grave. This is what the teachings on the shadow are for, to recognize we have this huge cultural obsession with isms right now that I feel tells us a lot about ourselves. There's a lot of projection. There's a lot of reaction formation. What about psychodynamic theory? Are you learning anything psychodynamic?
Ryan Rogers: I haven't learned any psychodynamic, no.
Stephanie Winn: So, you know, when I talk about psychological defenses, when I talk about reaction formation.
Ryan Rogers: Yeah. I mean, I remember some of that from undergrad.
Stephanie Winn: Okay. Yeah.
Ryan Rogers: Actually, there's like in quite a few classes. So like the old stuff, like psychodynamic and then anything like CBT, like, you know, anything in the CBT school, you're not allowed to write about. Like you pretty much have to write about some postmodern theory. So like feminist, cultural, relational, like something like that. I think what's really tough is like the people who are in all the positions of power, like professors and administrators, those are your true believers. You know, and so, I mean, it could take like a generation or more to get, you know, back to like graduate programs that put therapy first.
Stephanie Winn: But who's going to carry on the tradition?
Ryan Rogers: You know, I hope that there's like enough people that are really devoted to like actually helping people get better, that that tradition will continue. But I don't know that it's coming from universities right now.
Stephanie Winn: What are you being taught about diagnosis?
Ryan Rogers: It's more like talking around it, you know, so you. Like if I were to write about like bipolar disorder, for instance, you know, your, your paper would look like, you know, talking about how a bipolar disorder has historically been used to stigmatize marginalized people. And, you know, you wouldn't want to, you know, further any of that, like, that's kind of what you would focus on in your essay.
Stephanie Winn: This is okay. I mean, even if there is some truth, and any of that, how it's like, okay, but how do we help people with bipolar disorder? Right? Because I mean, now, now we can contest the DSM as a political document, we can argue about whether bipolar two is a really valid diagnosis. I mean, a lot of people probably meet criteria for bipolar 2 disorder and live just fine. I mean, the cyclothymic, you know, cyclothymic is like, who isn't cyclothymic?
Ryan Rogers: Yeah, yeah.
Stephanie Winn: It's like so wild. But when it comes to actual bipolar 1 disorder with like bouts of severe mania, that's a very destructive illness. And if someone is experiencing acute mania, they could ruin their life.
Ryan Rogers: I mean, the core philosophy of my program is that whether it's bipolar or anything else, the main issue with the person is not a psychiatric diagnosis. The main issue is systemic and structural oppression. And so rather than focus on this one-on-one relationship with something like you, you can't really change, they would say, you're going to have very little ability to have an impact on the client one-on-one. So the bulk of your energy should go towards advocacy. The question one of my professors posed to us at one point was, how are you going to be a social justice warrior for counseling? That was our question for class. And a lot of the syllabus, syllabi, it'll have something explicit like skills to be learned as a counselor. One of the skills is advocate for policies that promote equity and social justice. That's like a counseling skill.
Stephanie Winn: They're teaching that you should be spending time doing things other than counseling, but Literally, my brain cannot compute how a therapist with a patient should be spending their time doing advocacy work. Like, okay, you want to be an activist? You want to, like, go out in the streets or sign petitions or whatever? More power to you, but what does that have to do with the time you are being paid to sit in a chair in a room with another person who's coming to you with their problems? These people seem like they have no idea how to help people.
Ryan Rogers: There's times that I push back in class, and I always try to push back a little bit. I'm not shaking up things too much. But I'm always like, what practical skills can you give someone so that they're suffering a little bit less? Because the mindset is like, well, the only way to decrease the suffering in the client is overthrow the capitalist system. And as someone who's been there and had some really rough depression, it's like any kind of skill or any kind of, you know, anything you can do to alleviate the depression is going to make a difference. And that just, it doesn't seem like a high priority to them.
Stephanie Winn: No. And you know what, I mean, what they're saying in many cases is the opposite of the truth because I have seen people with far left beliefs in therapy where I didn't do a thing in therapy to challenge their political beliefs. In fact, I shared many of them at the time, but I have seen people be victims of their own beliefs. I have seen people, because of the guilt that they have over their demographics and their so-called privilege, including people who are very poor, very traumatized, very disadvantaged, but who were so indoctrinated into this belief system that all they were doing was self-flagellating based on whatever so-called markers of, you know, being a privileged oppressor they had, whether it's just their race and their sex or whatever. And I've seen them hold themselves back, get severely depressed, you know, be in super codependent relationships with people who took advantage of them, stay in dead-end jobs because they had these anti-capitalist views. They didn't believe that they could or should aspire to do better for themselves. I mean, these beliefs can be extremely limiting. And if, if our job is to look out for the well-being of the person in front of us, sometimes that means seeing how their own beliefs are holding them back. And this idea that there's nothing a person can do to improve their circumstances or take care of themselves as long as we have a capitalist financial system, it's like, well, then what the hell is the point? Why are we doing therapy at all? Like, okay, fine. Everybody quit your jobs, revolt. You, you know, grab your patient's hand and go out on the streets and, you know, protest with them. And, you know, while you're at it, why don't you just get arrested for blocking traffic and then you can both feel better about yourselves for how you were upstanding citizens today. But the thing is, when it comes to people actually suffering, like bipolar 1 disorder, just to use a recent example from this conversation, that person needs to learn how to regulate their sleep, first and foremost. And that's not fancy. It's not glorious. It doesn't make you feel like you are saving the world to teach someone how to put themselves to bed at night. but you just might be saving a life if you learn how to do the actual work of dealing with the really basic stuff or the more complex psychodynamic work of looking at someone's martyrdom and their own sadomasochism that's wrapped up in their anti-capitalist beliefs that they're shooting themselves in the foot with.
Ryan Rogers: I think some of the resistance to really simple tools like figuring out how to get a good night's sleep, the resistance comes from like, this is boring, but really grand things like ushering in utopia, that's exciting.
Stephanie Winn: It's grandiose.
Ryan Rogers: Yeah. I have a personal thing to tell if that's okay. Oh, please. So 2015, I had a romantic breakup. I lost a job. I had three of my best friends die of heroin overdoses. And I was in like a really horrible depression. And that's when I found like left-wing politics. And I got super, super anti-capitalist and super socialist and all this kind of stuff. And that year I had two suicide attempts in a three-day period. And there was like a lot of things driving that chemical imbalance and all kinds of stuff. But one of the big thoughts that kept going through my mind was just by existing, I'm taking up resources, which are contributing to climate change. You know, that was like, I am like, I am annihilating the planet just by existing. And that's why, like, it makes me so angry when this type of mentality gets pushed, because it does so much damage to people's mental health.
Stephanie Winn: Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. I'm sure that it's not easy to say those things in just such a straightforward manner. But absolutely, I can remember similar thought processes. I was very, very concerned about climate change from an early age and resource consumption and toxic waste. And I still care about the environment. Like right now, I'm personally on a mission to eradicate endocrine-disrupting chemicals from my wardrobe, for example. You know, so I care about the environment, but I would be paralyzed at the grocery store because I could I can conduct a life cycle analysis of every item on the shelf. I could see its carbon footprint and where it's coming from and going to. And, you know, these sort of beliefs also contribute to antinatalist sentiments. And and now, you know, I'm at a stage in life where it's not appropriate or possible for me to be having my own biological children. I am, you know, I'm happily engaged to someone with children from a previous marriage and we're making that work. And by the way, step, you know, blended family issues are another one of those things that are not getting covered by the professions that should be covering them. Something like a third of Americans are involved in blended family situations. And yet there are more CEU trainings for therapists on transgender and non-binary clients than there are on blended family issues. So that's, you know, that's an aside. But for me, my age and stage and chapter in life, you know, antinatalist views are something that I can now look back on and see how that didn't take into consideration half the picture of human nature, what it is to be human, what it is to love and seek meaning in life and hope, what it is to be female, what it is to be in touch with the natural world. These are all things that I have a different view on now in midlife than I did when I was younger. And there's a lot of other things, you know, that I also had these very left-wing views that, you know, earlier chapters in my life and can see how, how sort of masochistic and self-defeating many of them were. And not that they didn't contain grains of truth, but that those grains of truth were not balanced by other perspectives on human nature and the meaning of life. And all of these things that I, that I now think are sort of necessary counterbalancing views.
Ryan Rogers: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it, it really blows things out of proportion in a way that's like really not helpful. You know, I think it's, it's very much like black or white, all or nothing mentality. Like either, either we have zero fossil fuels or like we're all dead or either, you know, we overthrow the capitalist system or it's like complete oppression, you know, and it prevents you from making like little step-by-step improvements to your life or someone else's life.
Stephanie Winn: You know, since you got vulnerable with me, I'm thinking like, based on what we've just opened up, thinking back on, you know, previous therapy that I've had in my life, I, I didn't feel like my therapists that I've had have been particularly great at challenging me or pushing back or really getting me for that matter. But I think this topic that I've been addressing more and more on this podcast lately of anime, are you familiar with that word?
Ryan Rogers: Yeah. Is that Durkheim?
Stephanie Winn: I don't know.
Ryan Rogers: Emile Durkheim?
Stephanie Winn: I don't know. Did he coin it?
Ryan Rogers: He was a sociologist from a long time ago.
Stephanie Winn: Oh, okay. All I know about the term is that it basically means the lack of any kind of cohesive norm And I feel like there is a sort of enemy or normlessness that has taken over society and the counseling field in a way that, you know, I think if previous therapists had maybe been a little bit more mainstream or a little bit more conservative or a little bit more willing to willing to acknowledge that there are things we know about human nature and human psychology and what tends to help humans flourish and not that maybe they could have challenged more some of the limiting beliefs I had that were keeping me from doing things that would have really helped me settle and become a more grounded and well-rounded human being earlier on at life. I feel like I engaged in maybe some self-destructive behaviors that were a little rooted in normlessness, if you will. Does that make sense? It's our lack, it's our unwillingness to point to anything as any kind of true north for the human life. I feel like, yeah. Go ahead.
Ryan Rogers: I mean, as different as they are, like the old psychoanalytic and then like the, the CBT kind of from the modern, you know, school of, of trying to find human universals. And then you've got like the postmodern, which is just like trying to destroy any like conception of a norm. And I think that just has such like a, a negative impact on people's psyche to not have like that kind of foundation or roots.
Stephanie Winn: It's like the way that people are being taught in grad programs like yours disregard so much of what we do know about psychology, like the fact that we need containment and boundaries, the fact that infinite choice is not good for us, that children need structure, all these things.
Ryan Rogers: Yeah, it's true. It's considered an offensive concept. Really, almost anything that gives personal responsibility, agency, autonomy, when you look at it that way, it seems really disempowering to not want to give people agency.
Stephanie Winn: I don't know. Absolutely. What are you being taught in grad school about human development across the lifespan?
Ryan Rogers: I mean, we learned a little bit from infancy to geriatric, but it didn't feel all that useful to me. I don't know. I don't know how I would apply a lot of that to counseling.
Stephanie Winn: Well, that's too bad because that's what it's supposed to be is human development as relevant to how our psychology evolves over time and how our needs change. And most of who you'd be working with in therapy are neither infants nor geriatrics. Although geriatric counseling is its own niche, but most people are somewhere in between. And I feel like there's a lot more nuance to how our psyches change between 20 and 25 to 40. Yeah.
Ryan Rogers: I'm hoping that during like practicum and internship, I'll get like a wide variety of people to get good exposure there.
Stephanie Winn: What do you feel like are some things that are missing from the curriculum? Maybe some of those gaps that you filled in with your own self-study.
Ryan Rogers: So I, I mean, there, there were things that I learned in, in, in my undergrad program that were really good. So I took a theories of counseling class and a psychological disorders class, both in undergrad and grad school. And really I would just like, like replace one with the other because like my professors did a phenomenal job in undergrad explaining all these concepts and fleshing them out and everything. I really think that at least half the program should just be really application stuff, working on skills, techniques, things like that. That seems to be the most useful thing to me. I mean, you can kind of read a book on your own, but it's just so helpful to be able to practice those things.
Stephanie Winn: There's also, it seems like a need for case formulation skills. Like how are you, how are you perceiving the gestalt of this person who's coming into, I mean, well, so LPC, you mentioned you're on the LPC track. So for those who aren't familiar, that means licensed professional counselor. There's several different types of master's level clinicians. Now, as Ryan mentioned before, some of the names for these can vary a little bit from state to state. Like I'm an LMFT, which is licensed marriage and family therapist. Ryan also mentioned LCSW, licensed clinical social worker. So a lot of people I've met on the LPC track were really focused on individual counseling. Is that the case, or do you have any training in families as well?
Ryan Rogers: So my two electives that I took are in marriage and family.
Stephanie Winn: OK. So as an LPC, it's optional to study something like marriage counseling or? Did you learn anything useful in marriage counseling, marriage and family?
Ryan Rogers: Oh, I got this book, The Ethical Slut.
Stephanie Winn: Oh, tell the audience about this. I think I saw you post about this on X. Was this required reading?
Ryan Rogers: Yeah, that's how we met. That's required reading, yeah. There were several books that were required reading. One was Terrence Real. which like the theme of the book was just like, any problem in couples, it's the man's fault. And then we had the ethical slut. And like the ethical slut is like, basically any kind of, if you believe in monogamy, you're just kind of rooted in like outdated puritanical norms. You know, you've basically been like duped and brainwashed by society into thinking that you should have like, traditional marriage. This is one of the classes where I would push back a little bit. One day I said, I'm not sure everybody is cut out for polyamory. I'm not saying it's bad, I didn't condemn it, but I don't think it's for everybody. I think some people are just naturally more geared towards monogamy. And my professor laughed at me. She was like, that's such a CBT thing to say. I'm not really sure what she meant by that. But both in the book and with the professor and the class, the basic idea was polyamory is a higher stage of evolution. If you're still monogamous, you haven't done the work to overcome your jealousy and evolve into this higher level of polyamory.
Stephanie Winn: OK, I feel like if this book belongs in a graduate program at all, it belongs in an elective on cultural competency with non-monogamous clients. And this reading would be part of learning the worldview that certain people have adopted. But in a marriage and family class, do these people have children? Do any of these people have children? Because one benefit of monogamy, our audience may be shocked to learn, is that it provides a stable environment for family. The family part of marriage and family. I mean, first of all, these people are obviously anti-marriage. And if you have an anti-marriage bias, I'm not sure why you should be teaching a marriage and family class. You should be teaching a polyamory class. But marriage is often a foundation for family, which means having children. And as I mentioned earlier, there are many types of families in the United States. About a third of us are in blended families, like I am. Where's the education on issues pertaining to people remarrying after divorce, meeting new kids, attachment issues? That stuff, I think, should be discussed in these types of programs and classes. But I mean, just what about the needs of children? Are you learning anything about children in grad school?
Ryan Rogers: Nothing that comes to mind right now, but with the marriage and family thing, a lot of the premise is you need to unshackle yourself and throw off all these outdated norms based on Christian Puritanism, like marriage. Marriage exists in probably every society that's been studied, some form of marriage, you know, but it's considered it's linked to like European Christianity. Therefore it must be like a bad thing. So we need to kind of overcome it. We need to evolve past it.
Stephanie Winn: This feels like a real, real boundary violation that the imposition of values. I mean, clearly the, the professors are trying to impose their values on the students. and teaching the students that they need to not only adopt these values, but then impose these values onto their clients. What does that say about the vast majority of Americans who would actually really like to be in stable, long-lasting relationships, if not married? Most people want that. And a lot of people who claim to not want that, if they had good enough therapy, working through the things that made them afraid of commitment or whatever would discover at the end of the day that actually Yes, to have one other person you can turn to for everything in life actually sounds pretty nice. We should be so lucky, right? It's not a guarantee that a person will be successful and fortunate enough in love to have even one person to have that close intimate bond with. The idea that you should throw off the shackles, meaning disregard your own tender, vulnerable feelings of attachment, disregard the tender, vulnerable feelings of attachment and the need for security of someone in your life. Just to pursue this ideal of reckless freedom. It's like, I wonder what it'll take for so many people who have these beliefs to realize what it is that they're trying to destroy.
Ryan Rogers: It's it was kind of funny in class. One of the days we were covering this book, there was young woman, maybe like 24, 25 years old. And she's just like in anguish because she's like really wrestling with it. She's like because she knows that polyamory is the right answer. But she's like, but I don't want to share my boyfriend, you know. And so it's like a lot of times people are twisted because they're like, I know what the correct answer is. I want to get points, but I certainly don't believe that. You can tell people are kind of debating in their head sometimes.
Stephanie Winn: So this was a classmate of yours?
Ryan Rogers: Yeah.
Stephanie Winn: And how is the teacher handling it?
Ryan Rogers: She didn't push too hard. You could tell she was kind of, you know, nudging us one way or another, but like for stuff like that, there was a few comments like that, that might've gone outside of the boundaries of what was intended. And she would just be like, thank you for speaking your truth, you know?
Stephanie Winn: So is anyone teaching attachment theory then?
Ryan Rogers: I hear attachment theory. I haven't read anything about it personally. I hear people talk about attachment theory, but we haven't covered it.
Stephanie Winn: I mean, non-monogamy is pretty terrible for most attachment styles. My personal opinion of it is it's a maladaptive coping style that works best for people with avoidant attachment. Interesting. Okay. If you have anxious attachment, then
Ryan Rogers: be horrible.
Stephanie Winn: Then it's the worst. If you have secure, maybe you can swing it a little bit more stably than the anxious person, but why would you want to? This makes me sick. The irony here is that there's this narrative in these woke programs that Things like CBT are, and for those who are like, who aren't therapists out there, cognitive behavioral therapy, that is just a form of gaslighting oppressed people into, you know, going along with their own oppression, right? That's the narrative. But that's what I feel like is happening when you take a young woman who has a healthy instinct to be attached to her boyfriend. And at her age might be considering things like again, like marriage and family, like settling down with him and providing a secure foundation for children, perhaps. And it feels like she's being gaslit that that there is a superior way of being that she should adopt. And it makes me wonder if they are using any of the tools of CBT or any other approach to counseling for that matter to harm people, to psychologically abuse people.
Ryan Rogers: I would say I've met more people in my program who are specializing in astrology than CBT.
Stephanie Winn: And how is astrology treated in the grad program?
Ryan Rogers: I would say astrology is probably treated more favorably than CBT is. It's just kind of assumed that gaslighting is one of the words you hear to describe CBT a lot. The whole idea that you give people agency and autonomy instead of just labeling them a victim is considered very offensive. That's gaslighting. But astrology, it's women's ways of knowing and that kind of stuff. you know, indigenous knowledge systems, all that.
Stephanie Winn: So would I be throwing a curveball if I said I identify as a Capricorn and that means that I prefer to be treated as someone with a high degree of personal agency and ambition? Is this like creating too much cognitive dissonance now because I'm mixing women's ways of knowing with personal agency and ambition?
Ryan Rogers: I don't know how they would deal with that. It's kind of interesting because it's like, you know, you, there's like, there's like some kind of intersectional hierarchy going on where you have to like do a calculation in your head of like, what's this person's score and like how much is their voice valued because of the, you know, like, I mean, you know, a professor was talking about how you should decorate your office if you're a therapist. and he said you should decorate it with inclusive things but not alienating things and his example of an alienating thing was a bible and an inclusive thing was a pride flag and somebody was like well like couldn't the pride flag be exclusionary like couldn't it like turn some people off and he was like no it's inclusive it's just like by definition it's inclusive You know, and she goes, well, what about, what if like, what if a Muslim didn't like it? And I was like, Oh, you know, cause if you said Christian, like they're the oppressors, like you don't matter, their feelings don't matter. But she said Muslim. So it's like, Ooh, you know, and the professor just kind of, you know, stammered then moved on. But it's just kind of interesting, like how, how certain things are valued and what, what counts, you know, like, you know, what, what if you said you're a Capricorn who wants to take personal responsibility, you know, like how does that,
Stephanie Winn: or excuse me, as a Capricorn, I like to decorate my office with earth tones and so the pride flag would really clash with my aesthetics. Don't blame me, blame I'm an earth sign. I got to go with the earth tone, sorry.
Ryan Rogers: I would say if you're just as a woman, you probably don't have enough social capital, but if you identified as a non-binary gender that was a Capricorn, you might have enough power.
Stephanie Winn: As a non-binary Capricorn, I can say that this violates my personal aesthetics. Okay. I see. God help us. If anyone out there prays, please pray for my fields. We're full speed ahead slamming into a brick wall. OK, so speaking of religion, what are you being taught about religion? Christianity bad? Islam good? Is that it?
Ryan Rogers: Yeah, I mean, it's like the basic intersectional calculation is like, can you tie this to white people or men or something like that? Then it would be bad. If it's like non-Western, non-white, You know, it'd be good. So like Islam would be good. You know, any kind of like new age stuff would be good. Christianity is generally bad unless it's like, kind of like, like social gospel or liberation theology. And it's also Hispanic. Like that's the only time Christianity can be redeemed.
Stephanie Winn: If it's also Hispanic.
Ryan Rogers: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: So Mexican Catholics.
Stephanie Winn: Mexican Catholics are cool. Mexican Catholics are cool because they're Mexican and because their churches are colorful. And the Virgin Mary, she's a woman. OK. Yeah.
Ryan Rogers: It's like, it's one of those things you constantly have to be doing, like the calculation in your head, like who's higher in the intersectional ladder, you know? That's all it is. How do we score this one?
Stephanie Winn: That's all your entire grad program is, just one big… Yeah. Doesn't it get boring?
Ryan Rogers: It gets very, I mean, not just boring, but a lot of times like I'm beating my head against a wall, like trying to, there was one day in one of my classes where like the point that I was trying to, we were having a big class discussion. And the point that I was trying to make is that sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes objective reality can be a useful concept in the therapy office. And you would act like I just punched a baby or something. This guy was like, how can you even possibly know that objective reality exists? It's just so postmodern.
Stephanie Winn: There it is again, the enemy. There is no such thing as objective reality. I'm going to put forth an idea. I'm going to make an accusation. This is my case formulation of these people you're surrounded with. These people you're surrounded with hate therapy.
Ryan Rogers: It makes sense to me. I mean, if I had to guess, I would say that being a professor gives them an easier, steadier paycheck. And that's probably their motivation. And that being a therapist, like probably have to deal with some icky situations and feelings and stuff, and might be like more emotionally draining. But like, if you just have a class where you put on YouTube videos or tell the students to talk amongst themselves about the topic, you know, like, like you're getting a paycheck for that. That's easy and consistent, you know?
Stephanie Winn: Does, do they feel very prideful, your instructors?
Ryan Rogers: I mean, there's a couple professors who actually have private practices, and they seem to devote themselves to that. And there's other professors who it's like climbing the ladder of academia is a big motivation, and so they'll brag about going to conferences and stuff like that. It frustrated me one time because the professor who never lectured just told us to break into small groups and talk amongst ourselves the entire semester. He was going and presenting at conferences. I'm like, we're students paying to be here for you to teach us and you won't do that, but you'll go travel out of town to go present at a conference. It didn't make sense to me.
Stephanie Winn: Yeah, that's concerning. Kind of feels like he's gaming the system.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
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Ryan Rogers: Are you primarily psychodynamic?
Stephanie Winn: I would say my foundation is relational psychodynamic. Actually, that reminds me of a conversation with Malka Shaw. There was something she said before we started recording that she wanted to present me a case and ask how I would handle it. It was a question of something like, sorry, I'm just going on a tangent now, but it was something like, imagine that you are sitting with a client who has always been lonely and isolated and awkward, and then they tell you, I finally found a community. I finally found a group of people that accepts me. and then you find out it's the KKK. How would you handle that?" She posed me this question and I said, you know, feel free to bring this up during the interview and she forgot. We talked about lots of other stuff. But I had started to say I would handle that in a relational way because immediately I'm curious about transference, right? This person's telling me something really edgy that they know is going to change my perception of them. imagining I'm going to think and feel in reaction to that. And is that what they want? You know, like there's just so much to explore relationally there. So I would say like my foundation is relational psychodynamic. I'm pretty eclectic, but I just I tend to think in a relational psychodynamic way. And my course, RGD Repair, which I advertise in every episode is is founded. It's it's based in a relational psychodynamic approach to understanding the role that the gender dysphoria issue serves in many families. But anyway, from a psychodynamic lens, you know, there's this concept of hatred is really big in the culture right now, right? The idea of hate speech. People like me are accused of being hateful for expressing any concern with how we're treating people who are confused about their gender. And I think a lot of it comes from projection. And so I think a lot of these activists, they are themselves driven by hate and they're projecting onto the world that it's full of hateful people. But I, I just, it feels like there's such a drive in the people who are teaching you in this program. It feels like they're trying to destroy. the art of counseling. They're saying, we don't know anything, right? We don't know anything about actual cultural competency. We don't know anything about dealing with suicidal people or people who are seriously mentally ill with something like bipolar 1 disorder, which is potentially a life-shortening illness. We don't know anything about this, that, or the other. But we know a lot about privilege and oppression. And here's where everything you give us fits within our hierarchy and why we can tell you that that's wrong and bad and oppressive. It just feels like it's coming from a place of hate to me.
Ryan Rogers: Hate and envy, like two names that were just coming to mind is Eric Hoffer. I'm not sure you're familiar with Hoffer. He was like American philosopher around mid 20th century and then Friedrich Nietzsche. And both of them had this idea that like radical, like political activists are rooted in envy. So you hate the capitalist because you want to be successful and driven to succeed in business or whatever, but you can't, and so let's destroy the system. Or whatever we're looking at, I guess in this case, it could be therapy. I'm never going to be the type of transformational therapist that's going to turn somebody's life around, so let's just destroy this profession. You know, I, I have like envy to, to, for people who, who can do that. So let's just take it all down with us.
Stephanie Winn: That feels right. Right. It's like the idea that I don't know, cause if you look at the needs of the, the therapist, the needs of the person who aspires to be a therapist, it's, you know, it's widely rumored that we all get into it. Cause we're a little crazy ourselves and we're looking to heal ourselves. We're looking to understand our childhoods and why we do the things that we do. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, you know, as long as we have some good guidance along the way and we are able to mature through the process and be circumspect about our tendencies to take out our own issues on our patients. But it's almost like a reversal of that whereby, you know, one person might become a therapist in order to heal something in themselves and maybe struggles with a little codependency or projection with their patients, but overall does a good, you know, decent job. This is like an inversion of that where someone has so little faith in their real abilities and so much intellectual laziness, you know, holding them back from actually really studying the art and science of psychotherapy. And then there's this just jumping to destruction. If I can't join them, I'll beat them. If I can't have it, I'll destroy it.
Ryan Rogers: Yeah. And I said this earlier, I think, but like a lot of the social justice language is like a get out of jail free card for not knowing about a topic. You know, it's like, how would you counsel, you know, someone with bipolar two who was, you know, had an eating disorder as well. It's like something like that. It's like, well, you really have to take into account multicultural considerations and, you know, engage with the diversity. It's like, you just didn't answer my question. You didn't tell me anything like that was. It's a non-answer.
Stephanie Winn: I feel so sad for everyone out there who's… I mean, you seem like you have a good head on your shoulders, like you have your own independent agency to learn your own way, but people who are a little more confused or uncertain or without support, I feel for them. I feel for their patience. I feel for the field. I'm worried that this stuff is destroying the field. I was even telling you before we started recording, and I'll tell my audience too, I've been thinking about rebranding this podcast, just rewriting the description of it, because this podcast has really turned out to be about the downfall of the counseling profession. I hope that there's enough people to keep some of the good traditions alive, just like, again, thinking about back to my recent conversation with Malka Shaw and the legacy of the Jews, like the Jewish people have persisted for 4,000 years through all kinds of persecution. There's always been enough people keeping their tradition alive, and that's a beautiful thing, and it's part of their tradition. Psychotherapy is not a 4,000-year-old tradition. And it doesn't have it doesn't have that same level of, you know, it's not passed down through families. I just hope there's enough people who are, you know, naturally skilled at this enough and passionate enough to know the truth to keep the tradition alive. I don't know where all those people are going to go, though. I don't know. how they're going to jump through all these hoops. So speaking of that, like I said, I hear from a lot of people who are like, I don't know if I can do this anymore. Should I just do coaching and hope for the best? I mean, what have you decided, Ryan, about how to get through all the hoops you have to jump through to get a license?
Ryan Rogers: What kind of hoops, other than grad school?
Stephanie Winn: Oh, I mean, you have to complete your practicum, graduate, do supervised internship hours.
Ryan Rogers: Yeah, I'm, I'm actually really looking forward to that. I'm really looking forward to practicum and internship and, and like supervision hours, all that kind of, I'm really looking forward to seeing clients because I feel like kind of to go back to your other point, like who's going to carry this on. I feel like at the end of the day, like what works is going to be. Eventually went out over things that sound good, but don't work. And I feel like if your understanding as a therapist is primarily, if not only, rooted in the concept of privilege and oppression, if that's all there is to it, you're going to be very ineffective at helping people overcome mental health issues. And if you have a more solid foundation, you'll be better at it. you know, I think eventually that's going to get recognized. I'm sure a lot of people already recognize it. And there's probably like a lot, I've talked a lot, especially men who say like, therapy's not for me because what they got was, was nonsense basically.
Stephanie Winn: Well, and another, you know, as I was talking about like hatred in, in the therapist, I think like, You don't want your patient to get better if that is your worldview. If your worldview is systems of oppression are holding my patient in place and they cannot improve because they are a disabled black person or whatever categories of demographics. And then that person, through their own self-determination, actually manages to improve their circumstances. How does a therapist feel about that? Is a therapist like, no, don't leave me, don't get better, it'll disprove my worldview. You should remain angry and depressed forever.
Ryan Rogers: And like breeding discontent is good for like radical politics. Like happy, well-adjusted people don't want to overthrow the government, you know, or like disrupt the order, you know, you need discontent, angry, upset people to do that.
Stephanie Winn: Yeah. But also, I mean, these people, I don't think are truly well enough to do what it takes to accomplish all that much. I mean, if you look at, You know, the average pride parade nowadays, you see 25-year-olds walking with canes. Why? Because puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones are destroying their bones. I don't know if you know about that.
Ryan Rogers: No.
Stephanie Winn: Yeah, I mean, so-called gender-affirming care is absolutely devastating for people's health. So, yeah, all the people walking with canes in their 20s and, you know, dying young. Yeah, if you're not able to prioritize enough to figure out what you have to do to take care of yourself given your circumstances and make the best of it, then you're not in any position to really prioritize what political action is the most meaningful to you, nor are you going to be in good mental or physical shape to do anything when it is really your turn. It's just going to be a bunch of whining and screaming, not meaningful action in my opinion.
Ryan Rogers: I will say that every professor I've had in grad school has said that gender affirming care is the only appropriate way to counsel minors with gender dysphoria.
Stephanie Winn: Of course they have.
Ryan Rogers: And like, it's, it's like they frame it as like a moral issue. And also like that you could lose your license because you'd be such an irresponsible therapist to not do this.
Stephanie Winn: And what kind of reactions do you see on your classmates' faces?
Ryan Rogers: You know, I don't know who's a true believer or not, but everybody goes along with it pretty much. I think I told you the story of one woman was like, what if people change their mind later on? And the professor's like, I never thought about that. You know, it's just, it's like, this is the worldview and there are no alternative viewpoints.
Stephanie Winn: And that is really, really dangerous, by the way, talking about, I mean, it's funny that this is coming from people who are obsessed with power and privilege, because The therapist has a lot of power. You are an authority on mental health, especially if you're dealing with young people who, you know, for whom. Oh, my goodness, all those years of education, I could never because the kids like 15 or something. And so like I recently, because I'm not sure how familiar you are with my story or anyone listening, but I have not done actual therapy in six or seven months. I've taken a break from doing therapy because of issues in the field like this and to focus my energy on providing educational guidance and consultation to specifically parents of gender confused youth. That's all I do now besides this podcast. My course, ROGD Repair, is like the cornerstone of the program, but I work with people individually all the time. And so I hear a lot of stories. I'm glad that I decided to really focus on this issue because there is so much to unpack here. And I get a much better perspective talking to 10 or 15 families a week about exactly what they're seeing. And one such story was a family whose kid is seeing a therapist of her own choosing. And if your kid is an adult, they, of course, have that right. And so the kid is, of course, seeing a so-called gender-affirming therapist, would not be interested in seeing anyone who didn't identify that way. And, you know, the parents were holding out hope for a little while because they were seeing some signs that this therapist was saying, oh, well, you know, surgery is kind of a big deal. Maybe we could like do some of your other mental health stuff just to make sure you're in a good place. By the time surgery comes around and the parents were like crossing their fingers that this meant that the therapist was helping them stall, you know, and then and then, of course, there's that one meeting where the therapist tells the young person, there's nothing more I can do for your gender dysphoria. We've talked about everything there is to talk about. You seem like you're very clear that this is what you want. We can talk about your other issues, blah, blah, blah. And it's like when you as a medical or mental health authority tell a patient there's nothing more I can do, or this is the only treatment, or you have your mind made up and I agree with you, you are putting the full weight of your authority, of all your years of experience and education behind that statement to someone who's in a vulnerable position and it just is so upsetting to me. I've heard a similar story in the same week from another family where their kid was having, I will just, I will not specify the issue, but I will say a very serious medical issue that I've actually never heard of before. And it, and the kid was on testosterone. And of course, they're surrounded by gender-affirming care providers. And all the doctors said, no, it couldn't possibly be the testosterone causing this issue. I'm not even going to say what the issue was, OK? All I'm going to say is, what the hell are they thinking? Putting their medical authority, when you're seeing a symptom, a very concerning symptom in a young person who should be healthy, and they're on this experimental drug Who the hell are you to put your medical authority behind the statement, oh, we can definitely tell you it's not the drug? This is the absolute downfall of the profession.
Ryan Rogers: I feel like this issue specifically, the transition in kids, is the thing that broke so many liberals. It's like I supported gay marriage. This is just kind of the next version of that, basically. And I'm assuming you read the WPATH files.
Stephanie Winn: Of course. Yeah. I interviewed Mia Hughes about it.
Ryan Rogers: Oh, wow. That's cool. I got to watch that episode.
Stephanie Winn: She's great. I love her.
Ryan Rogers: I mean, like I couldn't read it in one chunk. I had to like put it down. I'm done for the day. Like it was just like too brutal to, you know, it's just, it was so much. And I think when people see stuff like that, it's like, okay, you know, maybe, maybe I wasn't right about everything. Maybe there's some things that I should reconsider.
Stephanie Winn: Well, and with regard to the treatment of gender dysphoria, if you if you can even call it that, because I I can test the term personally, but just admit that there's a difference between I don't know what else to do to help you and there's nothing more we can do to help you. You know, like separate your authority, recognize there are limits. Like I, I have plenty of times recognized and named the limits to my scope of practice. Right. I say I would say I'm an experienced therapist. Yes, I've talked to people with this issue before, but like I'm really not a specialist in OCD. And if you have severe OCD, you probably need someone who is a specialist in severe OCD. For example, it's called knowing your limitations. And all these people who are claiming to be specialists or claiming to be generalists who are capable of treating anything and then saying with so much authority and weight that there's nothing more that can be done to help that person rather than just admitting that they don't freaking know. Just like all of your instructors who don't actually have experience talking to genuinely suicidal people, admit that you don't know. You know, because this is someone's life in your hands. You're potentially recommending that they get a life-shortening medical procedure because you don't know how to help them.
Ryan Rogers: I think the way it's framed from their mindset, like from the social justice mindset is like, this is like a deeply profoundly moral issue. Like this is a human rights issue. You know, the type of people who would be against this are like Nazis, like supporting this makes me on the right side of history. Yeah. So it's like, I don't even have to know any of the details of what gender affirming care means. I just, I just need to know I want to be on the right side of history.
Stephanie Winn: And I've said before, and I will say again, that one of the most powerful things you can do for someone you love is ask, how do you know that this is the right side of history? Because that question changed everything for me in 2020. I was ready. I was ready for someone to ask that question, but I used this phrase, the right side of history. I'm not even going to say what it was about, okay? I'm just going to say I used the phrase, right side of history, like your average leftist who is convinced that they're on the right side of history. that we're the good guys, of course, it's obvious, right? I use that phrase, and all it took was a friend to say, how do you know that that's the right side? And my brain exploded. I was like, I don't. And that was all I needed. We absolutely have to question that narrative.
Ryan Rogers: Yeah. Because it's just assumed. It's just like there's never been any kind of deconstructing. As much as we talk about deconstruction, their ideas have never been deconstructed. They're just assumed. They must be right. It must be just because we call it social justice.
Stephanie Winn: It's so presumptuous that the hubris of it just drives me absolutely bonkers. And as someone who's lived on the West Coast for almost all my life, and someone who works in this particular field, I've just been surrounded by it. I used to be this and now I can just see it so clearly and it just drives me crazy. It's this haze that comes over people. Of course, we're the good guys. There's a lawn sign in my yard. Not my yard, I'm sorry. Somewhere in my neighborhood, there's a lawn sign that says Harris Walsh, obviously. It says obviously. I'm like, I get it. I get it because I used to think like you. I get how obviously, of course, duh, we're the right people. Duh. This is called black and white thinking. This is called us versus them tribalism. It's a facet of human psychology that we should probably try to see past or challenge from time to time when issues are on the line.
Ryan Rogers: It's kind of interesting how it's just assumed that any halfway intellectual and halfway morally decent person would agree with you on this political issue. I remember there was one class period, and the professor asked, how are you going to incorporate social justice into your counseling practice? And they broke us out into small groups. And this one younger woman said, well, I'm going to vote like my clients would want me to vote. And I asked her like, how do you know what your clients want you to vote for? And there was like this look of shock and horror on her face. She goes, what if I have a Trump supporter as a client? Like that just seems like unthinkable to her. Like, you know, you, you talk about how, like, we have to look at all these diverse identities and what if it's like a disabled, non-binary Pacific Islanders, you know, like as details you can get, but like 70 plus million Trump supporters are just like, you know, like they're from another planet or something.
Stephanie Winn: Yeah, yeah, lady. What if you had a Trump supporter? What if? I had a similar moment when I was, gosh, I think it was like 2016 maybe. I took a new job in a new location that was a more conservative suburb of the town that I was living in. And one of my first days on the job, a woman came in and her first question for me was, Are you a believer? And and I was like, Oh, okay. So clearly your faith matters to you a lot. And, you know, can we talk about what you're looking for in a therapist that, you know, what's behind that question? And then we ultimately determined that she wanted to work with specifically a Christian counselor. And so I made that referral, but I, that was the beginning of a chapter in my life. And I was like, is this going to happen to me every day? Every time I get a new client, are they going to be like, are you a believer? Is that just the neighborhood that I'm in now? And I'm going to have to refer them all for Christian counseling. No, that didn't turn out to be the case. But it was, you know, I realized it was kind of the beginning chapter of my life of I feel like I've learned some cultural competency with every other group besides small town working class conservative Christian Americans. This is like the one cultural group that I don't know very much about and that I had some pre-existing biases about. And it reminds me of I had this anthropology teacher in college. who she was probably like 60 at the time, and she had done a case study on the LAPD, and she told the story of how she'd done it, which is that when she was a younger professor of anthropology, a student came to her and said, hey, I have a group for you to do. What are those anthropological studies called? I forget. Ethnography. Thank you. I have a group for you to do an ethnography about the LAPD. And she immediately recoiled at the suggestion, and then Her own recoiling told her, oh, wow, I really have a bias against this group, don't I? So she decided to challenge her bias and study the LAPD. She studied them for 20 years. She wrote a book on them. She ended up marrying a cop.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
Stephanie Winn: And she was a really fun teacher. She was a fascinating lady. She'd spent time in remote parts of South America and lovely person, but that's I feel like that's the spirit, right? Like, oh, wow, I have a bias against that group. I've been told that group is the mainstream bad guys, the ignorant people. Maybe I ought to look at that. It's funny that these activists, therapists talk so much about confronting your bias, but that one bias is just so ingrained in them.
Ryan Rogers: It's interesting how we talk about like, you know, sticking up for the marginalized and everything like that, fighting against privilege. And like the old, like the old, like union socialists left wing is like working class and all that. And now like the working class is kind of icky. Like those people who didn't go to college think there's only two genders. Like, you know, it's very much like looking down on like people who are beneath us kind of thing.
Stephanie Winn: Yeah, it's very classist, but at the same time, a lot of these people are going to end up quite poor themselves because their attitudes are not conducive to wealth. Well, Ryan, this has been fun. I feel like we could talk all day, but we've been talking for a while. I want to give you an opportunity to tell us about what is in your books and where people can find those as well as where they can find you.
Ryan Rogers: Okay. So the woke mind, which is coming out in January, it's basically helping you understand like the mindset of social justice radicalism, which is rooted in a number of different psychological things. And the one that I cover quite a bit is cluster B personality disorders, extreme emotional instability that leads to overreaction to a minor stimuli. So the example would be like conservative speaker comes to campus and I don't feel safe. I'm in danger. I feel attacked. Like what's going on there.
Stephanie Winn: I just have to say, are you familiar with the description of my course?
Ryan Rogers: The ROGD?
Stephanie Winn: ROGD Repair. Yeah, so my course is founded on the trifecta of social contagion. It's a term I came up with, and it's basically about how woke beliefs about social justice and cluster B personality traits work together with rapid onset gender dysphoria. and gender identity ideology. So yeah, we're very much on the same wavelength there. Sounds like great work that you're doing with that. And if I understand correctly, this book is the sixth in a series. So can people find your other books currently on Amazon?
Ryan Rogers: Yeah, the other five are on Amazon.
Stephanie Winn: Okay, wonderful. And people can follow you on Twitter, X, at?
Ryan Rogers: Yes, I'm Ryan McRogers on Twitter, X. Right.
Stephanie Winn: So your name is Ryan Rogers, but on X, it's Ryan McRogers.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
Stephanie Winn: Okay, great. Thank you so much for joining me. It's been a pleasure.
Ryan Rogers: All right. Thank you.
Stephanie Winn: I hope you enjoyed this episode of You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist podcast. To check out my book recommendations, articles, wellness products, guest episodes on other podcasts, consulting services, and lots more, visit sometherapist.com or follow me on Twitter or Instagram at sometherapist. If you'd like to go deeper, join my community at somekindoftherapist.locals.com. Members can dialogue with other listeners, post questions for upcoming podcast guests to respond to, or ask questions for me to respond to in exclusive members-only Q&A live streams. To learn more about the gender crisis, watch our film, No Way Back, The Reality of Gender-Affirming Care, at nowaybackfilm.com. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for our theme song, Half Awake. If you appreciate this podcast and want more people to find it, kindly take a moment to rate, review, like, comment, and share on your platforms of choice. Of course, just because I am some therapist doesn't mean I'm your therapist. This podcast is not a substitute for medical advice. If you need help, ask your doctor or browse your local therapists online. And whatever you do next, please take care of yourself. Eat well, sleep well, move your body, get outside, and tell someone you love them. You're worth it.