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Comedian, actor, musician, and software engineer Chris Grace interviews the most interesting people that he can find. In a world of narrowcasting, granular demographic analysis, and algorithmic content pre-determinism, why not treat yourself to a good old-fashioned conversation?
Chris: [00:00:00] This is my, this is the first in-person recording for the Chris Gray Show. Uh, how's that for an intro,
Amber: Ooh. First
Chris: and first. Wow. My guest this week is Amber Petty, uh, who's been a great friend of mine for many years now. We've been performed together many times, uh, and. She's a hilarious person, a really good writer, and I was gonna ask her about her business, but, um, I thought it had been around for a while, but it turns out it was a sort of lockdown inspiration.
We're gonna definitely ask her about that. Uh, Amber Petty, welcome to the Chris Grace Show. Yay.
Amber: Yay.
Thank you, Chris.
Chris: you so much. What is the official name of your business? The
Amber: official name of my business is just Amber Petty, my own name or, uh, Amber Petty llc. Technically,
Chris: Okay. And you, I mean, I, I have all of the dumbest questions about making a business, but you actually had to make an llc.
Amber: I did, yeah. Um, I was a [00:01:00] freelance writer for a lot longer than that, so that started in like 2015.
Uh, but, and I never had an LLC for that. It didn't really matter and I wouldn't suggest it quite frankly. But then, uh, yeah, I actually did cuz I needed to get a separate business account, which you can do without an llc, but it's then a little hard. It was just getting into the point where like, okay, things might get more complicated if you don't actually make some kind of entity.
Chris: Did you feel prepared to start a business? Did you, did you know all these things or were you sort of like, let me start and I'll learn as I go
Amber: go? More, learn as I go. I mean I started, like I first got the idea to have a business at all when I worked as a copywriter for this diet company basically. And then to be frank, it was like, oh, these guys are running a business.
Well then, in that case,
Chris: yokels.
Amber: so, and that's where I [00:02:00] learned more about like marketing and webinars and lead magnets. So I knew some stuff about that through that job. And so then I did try a business, like doing voice lessons and stuff, which totally failed cuz I was not prepared for just how much work you have to do and promotion.
And I didn't like the idea as much as I thought I was going to. So all that. So then that totally failed. I got other jobs, blah, blah, blah. And then so I set out, yeah, this was during the lockdown.
Chris: and
Amber: I was a copywriter at a makeup company and working from home and uh, I was like, oh, I might lose my job.
Cuz again, they're making very poor choices that might lose me my job, , which I didn't like. So I was thinking about other stuff and I was like, oh, you know what? I know so many actors that now don't even have side jobs they can do, you know, cuz every, obviously all the restaurant jobs and stuff were closed.
And I was like, well I know all these online jobs and [00:03:00] writing and stuff that you can do and I wanna share that. So I was like, I'll put together this free workshop and I'll offer coaching at the end just to sell something and just see if anything I have to say is worth money to anyone. Mm-hmm. . And so that's how it started, which was like very not, it just was the idea of like, I'm going to sell.
So, I'll have an email list, I'll do a free workshop to attract people. So those were three main ideas. Um, I took a course about online courses that then helped me kind of, you know, put things together a little more logically, and then that's how it went. So like, I kept thinking like, oh, I'll like do all this research and listen to everybody, and then definitely just figure out exactly how to do it.
Mm-hmm. and then mostly just got overwhelmed and
Chris: just did
Amber: little pieces of things, but kept going and it worked out just fine.
Chris: Um, let's talk, I want to talk first about the failed business.
Yeah. Um, which was, when you say voice lessons, it [00:04:00] was singing voice
Amber: lessons. Yeah. Singing voice lessons.
Chris: And what did you, um, how hard was it to get clients for that?
Amber: It, I mean, thinking back on it now, I'm like, I didn't try that hard. Um, but I mean, it wasn't. easy. It wasn't easy. And the also, the hard part was I'd started that at that first copywriting job, then I got laid off. Uh, so I had to make money and try to keep my business going at the same time, which was hard, but it wasn't easy at all.
And I think one of the things that made it harder was a part of me was like, you know, you know, cuz I'd quit acting and stuff already, you know, I'm so, I'm like just kind of piling my failures up, you know? Mm-hmm. . And part of me is like, I don't need my fucking audience of people that's interested in me.
They all hate me or think I suck. Like I need different people would like me. So you can tell that's a great
Chris: attitude. Right, right. This is like when you moved, go to college and you're [00:05:00] like,
Amber: Yeah. I'll get a haircut, I'll be a brand new person. Then they'll, they'll see the room. I go by am.
Chris: Yeah.
Amber: Um, Anyway, so I just kind of had that attitude about it. And so that also made it hard because like and you have no audience and you're starting from scratch. So all that stuff, and combined with you do just have to talk about what you do in a lot of different ways a lot of the time.
Mm-hmm. . And if you feel weird about that at all, it's like, not gonna happen. And I, you know, just different stages of depression sort of varied through that period as well. So. Mm-hmm. , all of that put together was like, this is too much
Chris: And then when you, so now your business is, um, uh,
Amber: helping
Chris: find freelance writing jobs.
Uh, and was it that that topic was more [00:06:00] engaging to you in terms of I do feel comfortable talking about this in a lot of different ways to different people.
Amber: Yeah, it was, I did some of those. So people did sign up for the coaching and I found a lot of them were interested in writing. And then I was like, I also kind of at first was like, I don't know if I have that much to say about it, you know?
But through working with people I was like, oh, I do, I've kind of forgotten you don't, the things I've learned, you don't magically just learn. Yeah. Uh, if you were just starting out. So yeah, I was like more interested in that. It's more fun to talk about for me, I have experience in that and all that stuff.
So yeah, it was being sort of a more general like help find a side job kind of coach, which is sort of how it started was then just less interesting than like, Hey, I can just make a class on how to start freelance writing. And that's gonna be much more streamlined and specific.
Chris: and
Amber: interesting to me and easier for me.
Mm-hmm. . So then I did that. Now I'm starting to [00:07:00] do some other things, but it's still all about writing or like growing an
Chris: to singing lessons . Yep.
Amber: And finally ringing 'em right back.
Chris: Well, one thing about the singing lessons that, one thing that's absolutely distinct about the writing business that you run is there's just a stream of successes. Like near seem like since you started there was just emails that were just like, so and so got a job, . And I think that's distinct from the singing lessons model.
Amber: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Um, absolutely. Cuz also I was like singing lessons. Less to like get you on Broadway or get a record deal, but just like, you know, to help you express yourself or like be calm or whatever, which is a fine idea, but it's just infinitely harder to sell.
Cuz you're like targeting non singers. You're like, Hey, come sing and pay for it. Which I was just like not, uh, in the place to suffer through that dead zone to try to get into it.
Chris: You're selling the concept of [00:08:00] music to people.
Amber: I was selling the concept of yeah, I was going to, you know, sound of music esque homes,
Chris: right.
Amber: saying, Hey, actually,
Chris: um, but the, the, there's so many, uh, people have gotten jobs through your workshop
Amber: I mean, sometimes I feel like I'm a liar, but I'm like,
Chris: like, , . That's what this is about, by the
Amber: owed as investigative
Chris: all lies.
Amber: You got the receipts on
Chris: Well, I, I guess, yeah, I, I understand why you say that though, because on the web there are lots and lots of things that are like, Hey, do this side job. Here's a real, here's 10 easy jobs you can do from home or work remote or whatever. And also in the world of online courses,
Amber: um,
Chris: there's a.
Amber: there,
Chris: there are a lot of classes that are just sort of funneling you into a [00:09:00] series of products that you purchase and don't really have, um, a result. So I could see why you might feel like you had the tinge of that on the class, except that it's actual Were people getting jobs
Amber: Yeah. And like the, so the first time I did, um, cuz yeah I think even just with the newsletter, cuz I sent out a newsletter that has free, you know, writing job listings or pitch listings.
And I do think some people got those. Fairly quickly. And then the first, I did a four week version of my class, first kind of like a test class. And uh, in that one it was only eight people, but every person that actually pitched got a story by the end of the class. Like I was very surprised
Chris: you were
Amber: but then
Chris: I'm way, I'm a way better teacher than I thought.
Amber: So then, yeah, it makes it way easier to say like, Hey, I'm not even lying. Every single person that pitched sold a story and I'll say, doesn't mean you're gonna sell your first [00:10:00] story or that it's gonna happen immediately,
Chris: And they're not getting rich, rich
Amber: No, they're not. No, of course not. Um, but some people have, like, one woman works at Paramount Plus as a writer for all their digital stuff now.
And she had like no experience in that kind of writing before. And I have a few other people that now write full-time and just, they started with just my class.
Chris: Yeah. That's incredible. Um, you've like facilitated people like making career pivots and stuff That's, yeah.
Or
Amber: Or at least an outlet for some creativity that gets recognition.
Recognition in the form of money, which Lord knows we do not get as often as we like with creative fields. Yeah. And like, you know, a byline in a place people can read and that's, uh, that's really meaningful. I mean, it was to me cuz auditioning and improv , which I did before, you
Chris: well, improv you make a lot of money.
Amber: Well, well you make so much money.
I was like, so [00:11:00] tired of making that much money. Ugh.
Chris: you wanted to feel like you earned it.
Amber: You need to be a real person again. Uh, but you know, it's like ephemeral. You feel like you're doing, and it auditions especially, it's like you do a ton of work and you can't show anything for it a lot of the time. And just even writing something and if it's.
Dead end publication. Like I always talk about, I wrote for Snookie's blog
Chris: And I started
Amber: Like even that, it's still, it's like, you know what? My name's on it. I can show that I did it and they did pay me for my time
Chris: Right, right, right. Um,
Amber: did
Chris: you have a challenge? Taking on a new venture, you've already done the singing lesson business, you've decided to move on from that. Now you're gonna start even however modest you're gonna start with the writing business. Um, and are you bringing in the like, legacy of, okay, I'm not gonna [00:12:00] do improv anymore. I'm not gonna do acting anymore.
Did any of this like sort of, um, history, like weigh on you as you moved on to each thing? Yeah,
Amber: Absolutely, because especially like when you're starting a business and stuff. So the, it did weigh on me a little bit with the singing lessons business, but Mo way more acting was way more on my mind because there's so much stuff about like, follow your dream and take a risk and make that leap and do that.
And I'm like, I've made the fucking leap. And I worked very hard at
Chris: it. You jumped and the net
Amber: Yeah, we had a fucking Wiley Coyote situation. I realized, I looked down and that was the end of it. So, um, so, you know, it was like, Jesus , am I just gonna go through all that again? Mm-hmm. . And it helped a little bit that I wasn't like pinning my whole life on this, you know, I was like, I hope this works out.
I really want it to. Yeah. But like with acting, it was like my whole life [00:13:00] was that, you know, it was like all my dreams as a child and everything I worked for and all of it. It was like I had no. Almost no identity outside of being an actor, being a performer like that,
Chris: I almost wonder if, you know, maybe 10 years ago, I don't know that you would've said like, my dream is to run a, uh, online workshop for people to find freelance writing work.
But I, but I almost wonder if it allowed you to make better business decisions around it.
Amber: It did it really well. Even just starting with writing. Cuz I started while I was still acting. So you had more of a like, well I didn't work my whole life for this, so I'll just send it in and if you like it, you like it.
If you don't, you don't. You know? Right. It's, and the same with a business is like, the good part is like you have failed and know that life continues and you can try new things, you know? That's the good part of it, but, and I think that is what made [00:14:00] it possible for me to keep going, because if that didn't work out, I would've.
Chris: just.
Amber: Done copywriting or tried mm-hmm. something else.
Chris: I mean, when you're in your career as just as own pro, just the writing part, not the business part. Yeah. Um, I mean, it sounds like you're, you were more detached to your writing submissions than to your auditions as an actor.
Amber: Yes, absolutely. So
Chris: it allows you to like, churn through them Yeah.
In a way that doesn't, uh, involve your emotions as much
Amber: mm-hmm.
Chris: mm-hmm.
Amber: and that like is necessary.
Chris: And, and you also may be getting better at it while you do that.
Amber: Yeah. Because instead of thinking like, or overdoing an audition a hundred thousand times on a self tape, where then the next time somebody says to do a self tape, I'm like, oh my God, kill me.
It's gonna be this whole thing. You don't wanna do it. It makes you wanna not go out and try.
Chris: or
Amber: all that stuff. Whereas when you just give it a try, and even if it doesn't go [00:15:00] anywhere, if the poll process was a little easier on you, you're more likely to repeat it. Mm-hmm. . And it's with so many things, it's like if you just keep trying at it, it doesn't mean you're gonna get the exact thing you want necessarily, but you're gonna get somewhere close to it or you're gonna get a different thing.
Cuz yeah, I never would've said, like, my dream is to own a business doing writing classes, but then shockingly it's like quite great really cool and kind of allows me to do a lot of the things I liked about acting and I'm good at things I didn't think I was good at, you
Chris: I mean, eventually you can just have like a production company and just, you know, produce your own plays and just be the lead. Exactly.
Amber: Exactly. I'll just own a small theater somewhere and do my fair lady when I'm 60, you know, really appropriate stuff.
Chris: Uh, but you're gonna be the, uh, the Henry's
Amber: like, I'll be both parts actually. I'll be Henry and
Chris: like br the [00:16:00] the
Amber: his friend?
Chris: Yeah, the friend that like,
Amber: his name. Um, so
Chris: what do people come to your class? What do you think their expectation is when they sign up for your class? Um, I is it to, Hey, I want to just find a way to like, make a couple extra dollars on the side as a writer.
Amber: it's a little bit of that. There's kind of a mix of that. A mix of like, I've always wanted to be a writer. I didn't know kind of freelancing was a possibility at all. There's sometimes people who are just like, I haven't written anything in years, but I've always wanted to and so now I want to try.
Uh, and then sometimes people
Chris: people.
Amber: similar-ish to me who come from other kind of artistic or other writing backgrounds that, um, wanna try this specific type of writing. So, So, yeah, it's kind of a mix. I think now it's more people who are like, yeah, everybody wants to make some money, of course, but [00:17:00] less like, I have to make money now and make this my job now.
And more people who are like, I've kept saying I wanna write this year or that I wanna be a writer and now I have to actually try. And sometimes I get copywriters who are like, I wanna write something fun under my own name.
Chris: Right. Um, do you, so right now, how many product products do you have?
Amber: you Um, I have a few.
I'm doing a new class that's the half-ass perfectionist writing spree that's just focused on, uh, different things to think about, to be less perfectionistic and also purposely, working in a half-assed way. Mm-hmm. , so that you write more. Uh, so I have that, I have a newsletter workshop that might turn into a class.
So like starting your own newsletter. Oh. Uh, and growing your own newsletter. Take this. Um, and then, [00:18:00] uh, the freelance writing class. I think that's, sometimes I have little, I have like little free workshops that kind of compliment all of those, but those are the, what's that? Singing? Singing, yeah. How to sing to write.
And that's, uh, actually just me singing . I just demonstrate it.
Chris: And it's only Lisa Loeb songs.
Amber: All Lisa. And it's, uh, yeah. It's really, most of the time people leave, but sometimes people, sometimes people leave physically, but they, yeah, they left. Technically they're camera on. So
Chris: your structure typically is, there are some online courses and there's a Slack as well, but, but there's also a, is it a weekly, uh, office hours type thing?
Amber: Yeah. So I'll have a, so it's for most of the stuff, you get videos so you can watch the videos and learn the stuff and then come live either once or twice a week, kind of depending on the class to talk through things and ask other questions.
And then yes, slack where you can [00:19:00] share your work and uh, ask other questions. And then I also do give feedback on everything everybody turns in, which is, that's quite unique. I have to brag.
Chris: Yeah. I mean that's, uh, that seems very time consuming.
Amber: it's fun. I mean it's, uh, I don't know. I do video feedback, so I send a loom, little called Loom video
Chris: Mm-hmm.
Amber: I talk through it and that just makes it, I don't know, makes it easier cuz Yeah, if I were like going through with like a red pen kind of mm-hmm.
line editing, that would be
Chris: incredibly
Amber: not enjoyable to me. Yeah. So
Chris: So, uh, I almost wonder if then there's also a like, higher end product that's,
Amber: you
Chris: know, really higher amber for specific feedback that's like at some higher tier hourly rate or something.
Amber: that Oh, maybe,
Chris: know, uh, and I will take a commission on that
Amber: take Yes,
Chris: it's implemented
Amber: you have to. [00:20:00] Now it's on the air. You, you own that. I think
Chris: you have to say if you're a cop. Uh,
Amber: so,
Chris: uh oh. So I have so many questions about the, about. Having a business.
Amber: Yeah.
Chris: Um, because I wonder sometimes, so for example, like I'm starting a community for the podcast and, uh, which everyone should join.
Amber: Yes.
Chris: But I almost wonder sometimes do you feel a, like, I think okay, it's like in this day and age you kind of need community around products.
It seems like something people want. Um, but it also seems like it implies a responsibility to that community. I mean, you're sort of like the leader of this community. Um, and do you, how do you feel about that?
Amber: So when I'm, if I'm doing it for a class, so in a [00:21:00] class is where it's mo the most hands-on stuff where there's like the slack group and all the stuff that I feel fine about because it's like, it has sort of parameters and boundaries built into it and uh, and those people have certainly opted in.
And then it's also not all the time cuz I've thought about yeah, having like some kind of membership that's more year round or whatever and that just, that does then feel like, okay, I'm sort of constantly in charge of this group of strangers. Which
Chris: saying right now you have sort of start and end points
Amber: Points start and end points. And then the other things are just my. Email list where I will like ask questions and things like that. But that's also, that's just simpler. You know, you're sending emails regularly, you might hear from people, but again, there's a real parameter around that semi , like loosest version of the word community.
Mm-hmm. . And so that, uh, yeah. [00:22:00] So when it comes to classes, I like it cuz it feels like everyone has agreed I'm in charge for this amount of time and I'm in charge only in that I'm, this is why you might wanna listen to my advice and I'm just in charge of the order. Things go mm-hmm and that then makes it easier for me.
Chris: So you don't feel people trying to like sort of make you into the guru?
Amber: I mean, Sometimes a little bit. Some people have said that occasionally or Guru about something. And I always wanna be like, please don't say that . Or Can you be clear that I have not called myself that
Chris: but,
Amber: so there are people that become, it feels more like people that are just like really big fans.
Not crazy fans, but just like really big fans as opposed to the people that then start to like, oh, I, I'll do everything you say, you know?
Chris: they start dressing like
Amber: Yeah. And I think part of that is like, [00:23:00] and I don't know, I mean, who knows? Ask me again if I have a million followers or something. But some of it's just how you act. I don't act.
Chris: everything I
Amber: say is golden. I don't act like, yeah, every, you have to listen to every word I say and I'm very clear about that. You know, I fuck shit up all the time too and I feel insecure and all that shit. So, I don't know. So far it seemed to then people will really like me in classes and like the classes, but not, I don't know, there's just no re
I just can't fathom why someone would treat me
Chris: cut to a year from now. You literally have them like you're on their shoulders being carted around, down, like see through Po . I'm Um, uh, actually one thing I love about, um, Because I've seen some of the course materials and I remember thinking, um, that you're entering a field that can be very, um, [00:24:00] kind of woowoo.
Yeah. Because it's, people are very vulnerable. It's about the arts. And I've taken classes,
Amber: you
Chris: know, I've taken classes on act, having an acting career, and, uh, writing for standup and stuff. Um, and some of these classes are great. One thing that I is almost universal about classes where the teachers are in California, is that they have some element of them that's like, you know, all right, let's all, I'm gonna light a candle.
We're all gonna look into the flame and think about our intention for today. And one thing I loved about the course materials you had are, Like, I don't feel like you lost your personality going into them, because I think that you do have a positivity to them. But some of the videos are also like, and I don't know if you wanna send them this fucking thing or whatever,
Amber: Yeah.
Chris: And I often think like my, my cliche image of like the demographic that would take these sort of art, uh, you know, not arts and crafts, but [00:25:00] like a craft related workshop that they would be like in literature. Yeah. Yeah. That they might be like, whoa. She's like cur cursing on the, uh, . Yeah.
Amber: Well, and that's part of why I like do free workshops and I, and I send a newsletter and stuff, so it is like, here's what it is. You'll either be immediately annoyed and repelled and excellent, or you'll go, oh shit.
That's, that's not how I'm used to hearing about this. I enjoy it. So I have found that too. It is, it's so funny. It's just, it's, it's so stupid of like, be yourself. That's horrible advice. But it is like the more you just actually let your. Personality show, it just helps everything because that idea of being like professional or correct or academic is of interest to no one.
And it's so much, it is so much better to just occasionally have people write you that you swear too much. Which I have [00:26:00] had, even for a person who signed up for the half-assed writing challenge, I was like,
Chris: that it was called The
Amber: Half, well, the word ass was in the thing you signed up for. Um, they
Chris: were like, my children are in the room while I try to write
Amber: I do say that. I say, if your kids are in the room, then they'll get a great intro to swearing, so you're welcome. Um, but yeah,
Chris: work, if they've watched your free workshop, then they should have a sense of your tone.
Amber: Yeah. So they get a lot of chances to see a sense of my tone. Um, so it's pretty rare that anybody is just like, do, do, do, let me look up the random words, Amber and freelance writing class.
Oh. Bought it, you know, so that helps to make sure that the people are not Yeah. Appalled,
Chris: Um, how did you get over any self-consciousness about emailing people in a marketing way? Because that's a [00:27:00] challenge that I have with standup shows or anything, and these are projects that I'm proud. Like I'm not, I don't feel like I'm foisting something on them that isn't good.
Yeah. But I do feel like, all right, I'm gonna send this email pitching this standup show. I hope no one gets mad at me for emailing them.
Amber: It is. Well, at first it was really hard. And then especially like if you charge any money for anything you do
Chris: mm-hmm. , um,
Amber: um, it's then gets harder again cuz it's just triggers like little hidden insecurities you didn't know were there, which is
Chris: right. Cuz now you're putting a, uh, number on the value you're providing to them.
Amber: Yeah. And that's like, it is gonna bring up weirdness, in your brain. Yeah. Um, so part of it was, so part of it was just cuz I had some experience with email marketing from some of those other copywriting things I've done. I knew the results of it.
And the results are of it are if [00:28:00] you email people or get people on an email list and email them, you sell so much more every single time. Mm-hmm. you email. And so when I'm selling something, you know, and even I'll still feel bad sometimes or think about it go, oh, I just emailed them. I don't know if I should do it again.
And that just happened like a month ago. And so I emailed, I think I got one email back from somebody who's like, this is too many emails. So I unsubscribe them. Mm-hmm. . And then I was like, okay, so I could feel bad and like 10 people left the email list, but I also made a thousand dollars over a 15 minute email.
So what feels. Worse hurts. Oh, I actually care about the money more. So it's not like making it all about money, but it's sometimes it's more of thinking instead of I'm bothering everybody and I'm having to convince them to see what I'm doing. Mm-hmm. , it's like I am just sharing with the people who are interested [00:29:00] more information about something they'll enjoy.
Mm-hmm. . And when you can kind of think of it that way, it helps cuz the other people can leave the email list and that's fine. And the other people are, you know, people who would love to see your show or would be interested and they literally didn't see it. Or they didn't know, or they didn't know something about it.
And now they then get to see your show and enjoy it. Or they get to take the class and maybe get that byline they wanted. You know, it's, we've known so many annoying people. I know. That's the problem.
Chris: that's a, yeah. So first of all, there is this arms race with how many emails you get in your inbox. Yeah. That it does make sense that you might send me an email and it just gets, and then another 15 emails come after that from other people.
Yeah. So I might need you to send it again. Or I might just be like, oh yeah, I'm interested that, uh, yeah. Let me try to remember that. And then you, you forget about it and then you see the next [00:30:00] one.
Amber: that happens all the time, you know, cuz like that happens. Cons. And there's all sorts of little stats of like, oh, if somebody needs to see something seven times before they remember it.
And, and I don't know what the accurate numbers are, but even when I worked at, like, when I worked at the makeup company and there would be things where there were so many emails, so many social media posts mm-hmm. , this, that and the other. And then a month later there'd always be somebody like, you did that, I had no idea.
And you're like, oh, right. How could you not
Chris: I know you, like, you feel like you're, you're being so, uh, overbearing about telling somebody about something and they're like, oh, like even on your social media, some, like, even your personal social media, sometimes you feel like, man, I've been talking about going to Texas for this comedy festival over and over.
And then I get home and somebody will be like, oh, were you in Texas? I'm like, yeah. Dang it. . Um, so
Amber: that's part of it is just the reality [00:31:00] is if you want people to notice it, you've got, you just have,
Chris: mm-hmm. . It's just
Amber: what it is. You know? It's like you have to talk about it. I think it helps to try to just find different ways to talk about it.
Mm-hmm. , and I do think that's something in, in some other like product and course marketing that doesn't happen as much in like entertainment marketing is just like, tell us different things about it. Because I see a lot of people are just like, here's my show. Come to the.
Chris: show.
Amber: the show is now, and here is the show where you could say like, what's a highlight of one of the performers or, right.
What's a joke that you told last time? Or just different ways to come at the call to action of a sale. Mm-hmm. , it helps you feel not bored by it. And then it also gives the reader, the person on social media, you know, they get something interesting for it, whether or not they can even go to that show, but it is gonna potentially at least clock their interest.
Mm-hmm. as opposed to just [00:32:00] the, you know, here it is. Yeah.
Chris: What, what do you consider a good open rate for one of your emails? Do you check that kind of stuff?
Amber: Yeah. So yeah, mine are around 50% usually. Why? Which is good. No, it's very good. Yeah. Um,
Chris: I was gonna say like, five is good.
Amber: Usu like around 25. For most, most of the time is good. You'll see a lot of times with people with newsletters and stuff that the um, open rates are higher sometimes cuz you just have more people that you personally know at first.
So I have like 7,400 people on my email list right now, which is delightful for me. Perfectly happy with that. Yeah. But it's not like gigantic, you know? No, no, no. If it's like gigantic, then those, you know, if it was a hundred thousand, it'd be very unlikely I'd have around
Chris: 50%. Right. But if you send an email and you're getting 33, uh, 3000 something people opening an email, that's a really good, um, yeah, that's a lot of people. I [00:33:00] mean, my CK has, I think 80 subscribers.
Ooh. And, uh, I think about. I think about 40 will open it. But also I send my sub out once every 11 weeks.
Amber: But it's a very tight 11 week
Chris: Yeah. Well actually I never, it's funny to me things like podcast and newsletters, anything that I'm subscribed to, I kind of never got. Why It has to be on such a consistent schedule.
Cuz if I'm subscribed to this podcast, it'll just show up whenever a new episode is out. But it's so important to have the consistency of, I guess, hitting
Amber: Well, it's just so that people remember you. So like for those podcasts that you like and listen to already. Yeah. It wouldn't matter how consistent they were cuz you're already aware of it.
You already wanna listen. It pops up No big deal. Uh, for the podcast, you're like, oh, oh, my friend was on it. I'll listen to it. And then you didn't listen to it and then they didn't have another [00:34:00] podcast for six
Chris: months . Right.
Amber: like, the hell's this and what,
Chris: Right. So,
Amber: and with e newsletters, I think it's even more so because Sure.
You're emailed it, but we're emailed a million things. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's not that you have to be, you don't have to go crazy, you know? And. Devote your whole life to consistency, but just,
Chris: good cuz that's not gonna happen with me.
Amber: But it's just like, you're just reminding people you exist. Yeah, that's kind of, I exist.
And here's something interesting for you.
Chris: One thing I did hear, uh, that I think is a tangible thing for having a, um, Consistent podcast publication schedule is, I believe Apple Podcasts now. Uh, it's more likely your podcast is surfaced at a certain level in the searches. If you have two episodes within 14 days or something like that.
If you don't publish frequently enough, you, you're [00:35:00] just, you get lower in search
Amber: Oh, I see.
Chris: Because they want to promote shows that are active basically. Yeah. Um, you know, you mentioned that we know a lot of annoying people, which is true. Uh, and I think that a challenge I think we both face is like, it's almost like, is there like an introvert's way to creating a, like self-promotion
Amber: Yeah, kind
Chris: Because we know a lot of people that don't balk at sending a bunch of emails and all
Amber: Yeah, exactly. And like that's what I, that's why I meant by we know a lot of annoying people. Like if you're an actor, you know them too, , you know anybody. Those people who are just have no problem telling everybody their business.
Yeah. And um, yeah, I've never been that way naturally. So one thing for me is, part of it is it's like detaching it from myself because with an actor, I mean it's harder cuz it's you, it you are selling yourself. How you look, how you sound, the choice, all of all of that is together and it's [00:36:00] very hard to detach that from.
Taking it personally, you know, I mean, whatever you, you'd known that every rejection isn't personal to you, but again, you are the product. Mm-hmm. . And that's, that's harder. So going up to somebody and just saying, Hey, uh, here's why I'd be great for this part where I have no idea what you have in mind or who anybody else is and how you're doing it.
But anyway, uh, I'll just assume I'm, I'm the best choice. Mm-hmm. , like that's not helpful to me. Cuz I'll logically go, well I have no fucking idea. Who's the best choice? I would just like to audition, please. And that's not a very confident, uh, way to approach things. So when you have a pro, so even with my courses, even though I'm teaching them, it's still, it's not just me.
I can tell you why the course is helpful. Mm-hmm. , I can also focus like on the results of the people, which also makes it easier cuz it's. . [00:37:00] I'm never saying I am so great. Give me money please. I'm just saying, hey, I'm not even saying hey, it looks like I'm good at teaching. I don't . I don't need to say that.
I just say, here are the things you learn and here's what people have done. Here are some stories of examples. Here are ways, yeah. Sometimes here are are times where I went through something similar and what happened when I do the things I'm asking you to do in this class. And that's just easier. Uh, cuz I'm, yeah.
I'm not just advertising myself. I am advertising like possibility to the people that might buy it.
Chris: I wonder if you are less likely to be treated as a guru also because you are not the one gate keeping any of the opportunities.
Amber: Yeah. I'm not in charge of anything fancy. Yeah. I'm not, I don't
Chris: you're not gonna hire them like,
Amber: I'm not gonna hire them. I'm not gonna [00:38:00] publish
Chris: I put them on a house team.
Amber: Yeah. Yeah. And that, that, exactly. I think that makes a huge difference cuz they have no reason to suck up to me. Yeah. You know, for what?
Chris: Yeah. And I guess do you,
Amber: you get a prime spot in my next class. Like
Chris: you get a PDF certificate at the end.
Uh, do you feel similarly too that if somebody for whatever reason doesn't commit to the class or they drop off or I don't know, sort of what, um, attrition rate you have? In a way it also is, It's all for their own good or bad. Like it's, it's like I'm taking right now, this, uh, coding course
Amber: Mm-hmm.
Chris: and the, uh, they have these like online assessments that you do and they're quite difficult.
And recently a topic came up that, hey, what if people use chat g p t to help them, uh, pass these assessments? And the founder of the school was just like, I don't care. I'm not [00:39:00] giving anyone a job. You're paying for this class to learn the skills for yourself. If you cheat at the tests, you are just impeding your own learning.
You haven't done anything. So I'm not worried about it at all.
Amber: Yeah.
Chris: Um, and do you feel that similarly, like you're not, do you feel like you don't have to be connected to their, whether, how it's being received by the people?
Amber: it's like, I try to, I don't always, sometimes I do feel like, oh, I, I'm here to like fix everybody's problem and it's like, well that's not possible and that's not even what they want. so cool out there. Um, But yeah, it's like I can only, I can be very clear about what I offer and how to get help and all that.
And outside of that, there's always, yeah, always people that don't do anything. And some of those people, like some
Chris: of them are Chris Grace
I did one assignment,
Amber: but some of those people do, uh, like just do it on their own and just didn't ask for help. Some people [00:40:00] don't do it at all. Some people I think do it and go, oh, I don't like doing this, uh, in a variety.
It's, yeah. Some people ask for refunds. I've been lucky that nobody's been like, this class is a piece of shit. Give me a refund. It's just like, oh, no, something happened. Or like, I suddenly had a bill, can I get a refund? Um, so
Chris: they just say, I don't want to pay for this. Can I get a
Amber: kind. Yeah. I'm, I hate paying money for things
Chris: Uh, well actually your courses are, um, they have access to them though, right?
Amber: them. Yeah, you have access. If you get a refund, then
Chris: right.
But if you, if you don't ask for the refund and you sort of, you go a couple weeks and then you fall behind or whatever, you can actually, like still work through all the material
Amber: Anton, you can email me for feedback too. Even if it's later, you just don't get all the live, there's like live calls and then the live, there is some live stuff so that, you know, you don't, you don't participate in. But yeah, you could take it and, and get, and [00:41:00] even when you take it, then if a new expert comes in, cuz experts come in every time, then you get an invite to that new expert interview, even if it's like a year later. Um,
Chris: So, I mean, I'm going to venture a guess that this like exceeded your expectations.
Yes.
Amber: It Sure did.
Chris: Um, and do you think about growing at all? Do you think about other products or other things? You know?
Amber: Yeah, I mean, so like part of it is, Yeah, the like newsletter course will be some kind of like larger newsletter course eventually.
Um, outside of just growing what I have, I'm not exactly sure what it would be. I don't have any plans on like a book about writing at the moment or something like that. I don't, I don't [00:42:00] exactly, yeah. I don't exactly know, but I am always trying to grow at least a little bit mm-hmm. , um, with just different offers that also then reflect, like ideally I just want writers to be able to like, have an audience because that is the greatest writing freedom or anything freedom.
Mm-hmm. , uh, because then you have people you're directly talking to that respond to you all the time, and that's what most of us are looking for. Yeah. Um, so I definitely. Wanna be offering more stuff about that in the future. But I don't have any like grand perfect plans cuz they'll, those don't happen at all
So like I'll just keep going. Yeah. I wanna, you know, try to be on more podcasts and such
Chris: and Yeah.
Amber: get the word out about my things and everything, but yeah, I'm not like, I'll be the next Elizabeth Gilbert or whatever. Like, [00:43:00] I too fucking knows what'll happen. But hopefully the business will still be going and making more money and, uh, I'll enjoy it.
Chris: Yeah. I wonder if one constraint that you will maybe need to consider is the individual feedback for each person. Yeah. As the business grows. Yes.
Amber: That I will have to reconsider that. And where I either, um, take it away or I do some of it and then like, Specific other coaches or editors or something, do
Chris: Actually have you, yeah. Have you had, um,
Amber: the
Chris: either relationships, relationship relationships with people where you thought, Hey, this might, the person might be a good like coach for the what you're teaching or, I mean, has that come up? I
Amber: I mean, I've thought about it a little bit. I'm definitely not there yet, but I know there's like so many good editors and things that, you know, aren't [00:44:00] necessarily working at the New York Times, but like experienced editors who are now doing other things or between staff jobs or doing freelance or whatever, who would be great at that.
Um, so I don't think, I think there's lots of wonderful people that could certainly do it. It's just a matter of me being organized enough and making sure I was paying them enough and all that stuff.
Chris: Do you feel, um, does the business run in a way where you feel, uh, it's like a well-oiled machine at this point?
Amber: It's like a, I feel like it's like a kind of nice old car of like, sometimes I don't know how it's running so good, but hey, it's, it's, it's, it's due and it's job. Yeah. Because it, it's not like everything's a disaster.
I don't want to like, I'm a hot mess everybody. No. But, um, but also, like, I don't have, I never have too much of [00:45:00] a plan , like, things are not planned out in this advance as far as like a business probably would be, or, uh, a lot of stuff. But like, the things that need to be automated for the most part are, you know, people get their materials easily, pay easily.
Like, all that stuff goes well. I feel like I now have enough people that I'll make a certain amount of money, you know, as long as I'm. Don't start sucking or just quit doing everything so it doesn't feel as much like, oh God, but what if the next thing doesn't work? Mm-hmm. , it just feels a little steadier than that, which is a wonderful thing.
But then
Chris: I wonder if that's a more realistic picture of how businesses actually run, though.
Amber: I bet it is. I mean, I just think that, I think it is, I think everybody's, everybody's stuff is so different and so getting business advice is great because people have done things you haven't [00:46:00] done yet and it's so helpful.
I just wish a lot of it wasn't as prescriptive as it is because there is not one way to do anything. Like the only one thing that kind of everybody says, and I've seen to be true is like, have an email list, but even that some people don't have and do totally fine. But it's, I, I think you're totally right.
I think that. It's, there are few well oiled machines of business, even amongst the bigger businesses, you know?
Chris: Well, the reason I bring it up is because in the standup stuff that I'm doing now, I started a brand new separate Gmail account for it. Nice and clean. No. You know, just that thing. When you start a new Gmail account, it's like, okay, there's. There's no crap in the
Amber: Yeah.
Chris: account right now, , I'm only using this to communicate with people that wanna book me for standup.
And it's, it's all, it's going well or better than it has before. However, there's still [00:47:00] times where I look in the Gmail and I think, oh, I'd never respond to that person's email. Whoops, , you know, um, where I feel like it's going better, but I don't feel that image that I feel that a lot of business advice portrays, which is, you know, you wake up in the morning, you got your, your three big to-dos, you gotta check 'em off.
Amber: and oh my God, you know, I can't. And I like God damn it. I wish, I wish I could just get up and do that. And every fucking day was just planned out and perfect. But that has not worked. Like case in point today I was like, cool, I've got this extra time after my class and before Chris comes over I'll get to do this, this, and this.
And I was just like, I need to lay down on the couch. And it wasn't just pure laziness, I was like, I'm just tired as shit for some reason. Mm-hmm. , this is just not happening right now. And then guess what? I did half of it on my phone. Mm-hmm. on [00:48:00] the couch anyway, it was okay. You know, some people are wired for that and like I do think as you go along, you figure out the pieces of organization that you need.
Like I continue to put a couple more pieces in place,
Chris: I almost feel like the.
Amber: the,
Chris: Because first of all, I think the people that are wired like that are sort of extra loud talking about it. Yeah. And then I think it almost, because I've definitely fallen in this trap too, of, okay, I'm gonna start, uh, let's see, I'm gonna start doing the standup shows.
You know what? I need to like, subscribe to an email service and create a template for me to talk to the people that I'm gonna, like, I need all these pieces that business people say I need.
Amber: need. Yes.
Chris: And uh, then it's then, you know, six months in, you look at the list and you're like, I have seven people on this email list, and I, and I subscribe to this like marketing service.
You know, I could just be emailing them by hand. Yeah.[00:49:00]
Amber: It's like, there are, I think with business, with anything, it's like the more you can just go, let's just fucking see and just put something out there and kind of build as you go. I think it's just a thousand times better because you can.
if you try to do everything in advance, it just takes so long and it's discouraging. And if you're a person at all, who tends to think, well, who's gonna care about this? Or, well, no one's gonna want it anyway, then you get to deal with all that. Yeah. And like when you actually just put it out there, it just helps fight that cuz you go, who wants it?
Literally just this one person, . Mm-hmm. who, how, why should I do it? Well, you know what? Somebody paid me $200 so it's not completely
Chris: worthless now it's illegal if I don't do it. . . Yeah. Um, I mean I think that, uh, the other thing I try to remember [00:50:00] is no one that pays you the money to take your class then wants to hear you say in the class, well, I'm not sure if this is any good
You know?
Amber: Yeah, well that's a real thing. And this sounds silly too, but like if you say something, people believe it
Chris: Right.
Amber: sounds silly, but also like, I feel like coming from comedy and stuff, , we, I am a smart ass too. I'm very skeptical. You just get, a lot of people are like, is that really true?
Is, I feel like you get a lot of that, like immediately clap back kind of energy a lot. And so I'd forget that like, people, one aren't gonna take my class and pay me money just to go. Actually, I think this is, you
Chris: know mm-hmm. , I mean, maybe some of this is just the benefit of not dealing with comedians as your market . Yeah. But,
Amber: uh, but also that like, yeah, not, not everybody is out just with a magnifying glass to find flaws in you. That's my, my, I'm doing that all the time, not everybody else.[00:51:00]
Chris: Well, and also in a way, your class is not necessarily about how brilliant is Amber Petty,
Amber: No.
Chris: when I took this class, did it. May did, uh, like in conjunction with taking this class, did I also submit like six things to jobs? Was I, was I productive, you know, in while I was taking this class?
Yeah.
Amber: Because it would be totally worthless for me to make the class to be in any way about how great I am. Like do I share some stuff from myself? Yes. Because sometimes that's helpful of when I wrote for Snookie's blog or how this happened, you know, there's things you might encounter, so I share, or I'll sometimes share my own writing in it.
I guess I do that too, but mostly I use them when I talk about dumb articles that I literally call
Chris: you put something you wrote and you're like, read this [00:52:00] dismissed
Amber: it's like, I feel like I had professors and stuff who weren't kind of like,
Chris: like.
Amber: Better be sitting down while you read this one.
You're like, why wouldn't I be sitting down
Chris: It's not Dead Boat Society, Um, so, uh, so tell me, what can somebody, um, explore with your class? Like if they hear this podcast, what can they go look at or?
Amber: Yeah, so the best thing to do probably is you can go to amber petty.com/ 2 5 2 50. And that is will get you a free guide to 250 places that pay for writing. So you can find 250 magazines and newspapers and stuff like that that you could pitch tomorrow if you felt like it.
Uh, so you get that guide for free and then you'll sign, you are signed up for my email list, which you get more free writing jobs and information and you'll hear all about my classes.
Chris: And do you have somewhere in there, [00:53:00] um, an article that was about. Uh, was it that you pitched to the New Yorker or,
Amber: Oh, I do have, uh, yeah, it's on my medium page where I do talk a little bit about trying to pitch the New York Times.
I also have another, yeah, I have a different thing about that, but I don't have that hooked up to an easy an easy url,
Chris: search you on medium and look for that. Uh,
Amber: Uh, yeah. Um,
Chris: and I like, uh, yeah. I don't know what else to ask you about this
Amber: What a perfect way to
Chris: well, it's so, the whole thing is so impressive to me.
Uh, it's almost like I, I mean, I'm impressed when anyone like, like creates a career kind of like from scratch almost. Um, cuz it wasn't like there was a, uh, it wasn't like you, there was like a guide for how to. Make this really?
Amber: [00:54:00] Yeah, I mean it was through different things. I mean, I did take a course called Digital Course Academy that does guide you through many of the pieces of marketing and that also
Chris: the, um, the payment systems and that kind
Amber: stuff, yeah, like the payment systems and like ideas for how to, uh, you know, market your class like, you know, things to do, ways to like validate your idea.
Like that was very helpful.
Chris: Oh, I did want to ask you, um, one, what made you choose Loom as your video service? Because I've seen that around, I've seen that used and I'm not quite sure, like, what does Loom provide for you?
Amber: So yeah, loom is where you can just make little videos, video responses, and you can see, you can have just your face or you can see the screen.
And so if I'm giving notes I can highlight stuff on the screen and you can see what. Talking
Chris: is it like sending like almost like a video, like voicemail kind of thing? Kind.
Amber: of, yeah. And then you just send a link to it. Gotcha. And then, so otherwise, if you just do a video, otherwise I feel like you [00:55:00] have to attach it or upload it
Chris: Oh, okay.
Amber: So there's an, there's other services like that. But Loom was just the first, right. I'd heard other people use it. I'd seen it. I have liked it. And
Chris: so this is an alternative to like, I shoot a video on my phone and then I gotta put it on YouTube and send you the link to YouTube or
Amber: Yeah. Like that's kind of a pain.
And Loom is just like, you click record, you record it, you can edit it a little, not like a ton, but just trim if like me, sometimes you forgot where the stop button was and it's like a minute of trying to find out how to stop the video. Oh. Um. But yeah, and then it's a link pops up immediately You can send.
Chris: And what did you end up using for your teaching platform?
Amber: So that I use New Zen, which is, yeah, it just hosts all the videos, all the materials for the. Of
Chris: Yeah. I mean, and by the way, do you like the tools that you have set up?
Amber: I do. Yeah. That was, um, I got it even cheaper than it is now. Um, cuz it's [00:56:00] still in beta mode, I think.
But, uh, yeah, I actually like it a lot. It works well. It's, I haven't had problems with it. It's cheaper than some alternatives, but it still has all the things that they have. So I like those. I like Loom. I use Convert Kit for my emails. Gotcha. Um, to send out, you know, newsletter, emails, that kind of stuff.
Chris: Convert Kit also, is that a sales funnel type program
Amber: You can also. I'm not sure. I think you can set up products and sales, but um, you definitely can make pages for email sign up. So if you even wanted somebody just to sign up, like, oh, are, you know, if you wanted to segment your list and say, oh, are you a comedian or a just an audience member?
You could set up a sign up for just audience members and they'll be tagged in there. Or one just for comedians where they could be tagged for if you just wanna send out things to like, Hey, can anybody do a last minute replacement for this show? [00:57:00] And you could just send it to them.
Chris: Uh, you had mentioned at one point, Hey, what if I wanted to teach a class?
Yep. I almost think it might be an interesting follow up podcast to walk through cuz one, I was kinda like, I'm not sure what I would teach, but I do think given my, like credits or whatever that I could,
Amber: yeah,
Chris: I could conceivably sell a, here's a, some tips on, on camera acting or something like that. Um, so that might be interesting cuz I'd love to hear your thoughts about like how, how you should structure something like that.
I know one point of resistance for me is, is I'm not sure if I can get. office hours every week and like, you
Amber: that's like, just depend, like you
Chris: can, yeah. Cause I know some people create, yeah, some people create completely,
Amber: completely self-study
Chris: Right, right, right, right.
Amber: or you could do like Voxer hours where it's like, they just do, it's like a walkie-talkie kind of app. Oh. Where people can just, you say, okay, this day I'll be answering [00:58:00] questions, or these hours, uhhuh. And then they just send you a note and you respond just within whatever period of time.
Chris: Oh, and it's just like an audio response or
Amber: audio. Yeah.
Chris: Um, do you, has this changed your, um, the way you regard online courses?
Like if you have a course you're interested in and you go look at their, the way they offer the, how it's structured?
Amber: Yeah, a little bit. I mean, the structure of them is usually good. Sometimes, I mean, it's, it's always helpful cuz I still, you know, my classes are not cheap classes for writing classes and I struggle with feeling bad about it sometimes , but I'm like, I also want a business that works.
Uh, so that's why the price is what it is. And then I'll take other classes and very often more in like marketing and business mm-hmm. and it's just like, oh my God, I'm, I'm doing so much extra
Chris: Right.
Amber: they're, they are charging twice as much and giving a quarter
Chris: Yeah. I
Amber: the information I am. You know, and not, it's not [00:59:00] even shade to them.
It's just like my kind of need to overfill things, you know?
Chris: know I'm curious. Why you don't think you wanna write a book about this stuff?
Amber: Um, I mean I just don't at the moment, like in the future.
I mean, right now, who knows right now, , you're gonna stay here until I'm done . Um, so, uh, yeah, but just not right now. Cuz right now at the moment, I don't really know specifically what I have to say in a book that needs saying now. And then I think that could totally change because like, does anybody need another freelance writing class?
Nope. But I feel like I know how, how I am offering something
Chris: Mm-hmm.
Amber: Mm-hmm. in a book form. I just don't know. I don't know what that is. And also right now, if I were to write a non-fiction book, I could certainly self-publish it and sell it to my audience and all that and that would be fine. It's unlikely I would get like an [01:00:00] actual publisher though, who would care.
And it's. and it just feels like I have enough other things I could do to raise my profile at the moment that I'd rather do those. And then later if there was something interesting to me angle about it that was interesting to me to write about than I totally would.
Chris: I almost wonder if one of the things is when you write the book, you're sort of capturing the knowledge, you're sort of freezing it at that moment.
And I don't know how much your, uh, how much the industry has changed from when you started the class to now, but I feel like a lot of industries are changing pretty rapidly.
Amber: Yeah. If it would be, because I wouldn't, I don't have a desire to write a book of like how to become a freelance writer or even a book on like how to make your pitches better.
That's where I feel like other people have written those books and those books. Just fine. I,
Chris: Well, it's like when you,
Amber: interesting to me. So if I find some other angle to writing, then I'm like, oh, this [01:01:00] is what I can add. That's different.
Chris: Well, it's like when you see a book that's how to get into the voiceover industry or how to be an act a commercial actor.
Yeah. And you read them and you're like, well this, this, uh, casting agency doesn't exist anymore. Or, you know, you're telling people to do this thing and like, that's just not how it's done. Or you, if it was like, how to write for television and they're like, you need to write a, um, a spec script. And then people are like, we don't do that anymore.
You know, you
Amber: you have to have a multi cam, don't bother with single cam. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um,
Chris: So have you ever thought about, uh, Being a person that just goes and like speaks at a place.
Amber: Yeah, that's something I'm thinking about. I'd still have to figure it out, . But yeah, that's something I would like to do more in the, you know, nearish future for sure.
I've just haven't gone to a lot of conferences and things [01:02:00] like that, so that's where I feel like I don't know as much where to start, but I could, you know, that's just an excuse. I could figure it out, you know. But,
Chris: actually by the time, cuz I, I have, um, I'm a little slow with editing or like, I'm, not that I'm slow, but I have other ones. This won't come out for a little while. So, uh, I think maybe after this comes out you will have gone to a conference, right?
Amber: Oh yeah. I'm just going as a visitor,
Chris: Oh, gotcha.
Amber: but not, I'm not speaking there.
Chris: you can like, sort of check out the vibe and
Amber: Yeah, that's part of where I'm going to just be.
Chris: like,
Amber: Do, do I hate this
Chris: What
Amber: are people talking about?
Because I also do this. It's the thing I tell my students to do that I try to listen to myself, but don't always where I feel like, okay, I better like encapsulate everything. Mm-hmm. in this 10 minute talk they've hired me to do. And it's like, no, just what's one small thing you can talk about, you know?
Yeah. So sometimes, so getting to see what, how people break down their ideas is very helpful.
Chris: Yeah, that sounds great. [01:03:00] Uh, well Amber, this has been a delight.
Amber: Thank you so much, Chris. What a joy.
Chris: So tell me once more time where to go to look at your course materials.
Amber: Amber petty.com, uh, or if you go to amber petty.com/two 50, you can get that free guide to paying Writing Places.
Chris: Go do that I dunno why I ended, why I ended like that the weird.
Amber: Cut. No music, no out.