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You’re tired.
Not just physically; though yeah, that too.
You’re tired in your bones. In your soul.
Trying to be a steady husband, an intentional dad, a man of God… but deep down, you feel like you’re falling short. Like you’re carrying more than you know how to hold.
Dad Tired is a podcast for men who are ready to stop pretending and start healing.
Not with self-help tips or religious platitudes, but by anchoring their lives in something (and Someone) stronger.
Hosted by Jerrad Lopes, a husband, dad of four, and fellow struggler, this show is a weekly invitation to find rest for your soul, clarity for your calling, and the courage to lead your family well.
Through honest stories, biblical truth, and deep conversations you’ll be reminded:
You’re not alone. You’re not too far gone. And the man you want to be is only found in Jesus.
This isn’t about trying harder.
It’s about coming home.
Jerrad:
Justin, super excited to be hanging out with you today, man. Um, last time you, you've been on the podcast before a couple of years ago, and you had a book just releasing back then called habits of the household, which is so good, dude. I'm still recommending that book to this day. Uh, that podcast interview was helpful for a ton of people in the dad tired community and, um, the book was really, really helpful. And, uh, I just, I recommend it all the time. I'm big fan of it. And then you, you just are now. getting ready to release a second book or your third book, but second book that we will talk about on this podcast. Uh, it's called made for people, why we drift into loneliness and how we fight for a life of friendship. And when I read the, um, when I read the subtitle to that, dude, the first thing that came to mind was the really dark season I had in my own life.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yeah.
Jerrad:
And, and how that, uh, that whole like season, I've talked about it many times in books that we've done with that tired and on the, on the podcast in the past. But. So much of that season was really, um, I guess the key ingredient to all of it was just isolation and loneliness.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yes.
Jerrad:
Like I was by myself and I think it's just, there's a ton of dudes who feel that, um, in some shape or form. So anyway, before I ramble on too long about the subtitle, uh, I'd love to, I'd love to
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Well,
Jerrad:
hear.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
I picked it on purpose, you know.
Jerrad:
Yeah. Yeah, dude. I'd love to hear like, what, what was your heartbeat? Where did this, where did the, uh, the inspiration for this book come from?
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yeah, I really appreciate that by the way, and I love how much our mission and vision is overlapped and all the dead, tired people and the support for Habits of the Household. So thank you for that. I tell people that this book has actually come out of blessing rather than crisis, and I've written two books out of crisis, The Common Rule Out of My Own Anxiety Collapse, Habits of the Household out of the Crisis of Realizing I Needed to Rethink How I Was Being a Dad. But Made for People has really come out of a sense of blessing. And that is that I look back on the years that I've been following Jesus since late high school, early college, and a whole time I've had really close friends in some really hard times and difficult times, but nonetheless, close friends that have, I think, kept me close to the Lord and pushed me forward towards him when I would have ran the other direction. And I write from that perspective of thankfulness, but I also, I think, write Looking out into a world in crisis where I'm starting to realize exact basically exactly what you said that a lot of the problems guys particularly experience right now are not actually features of Life itself their features of loneliness a lot of the anxiety and depression we experience are actually the results of isolation a lot of the spiritual maturity, you know gaps that we get into are really because we don't have friends calling us forward. And so I look at friendship as one of the greatest spiritual gifts from the Lord, and also one of the greatest spiritual catalysts that there is. And so I'm really hoping in this book, both to show people, wake up to the problems of loneliness. I mean, it's killing you, but also step into this wonderful invitation called friendship, because it's where the good life is.
Jerrad:
man, I, I, uh, I've never heard it. Those two things be tied together. Those two dots tied together. It's
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Mm-hmm.
Jerrad:
not just like, Hey, you need friends. It's good. But like, this is actually part of your spiritual development and will propel
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yes.
Jerrad:
you into a more mature relationship with Jesus. That's really interesting. I want to pick your brain more on that. I was thinking it's like, um, one of the crazy things about our culture is how fiercely independent we are as a people.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Mm-hmm.
Jerrad:
And we really pride ourselves on like just doing riding solo, doing things alone, like being an independent minded people and family. And it's just so like crazy detrimental.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yes.
Jerrad:
Um, I remember thinking like every time I've gone on any kind of, um, mission trip or like service trip, one thing that always sticks out to me is you go to these other countries, which are more oftentimes village minded. Like
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Mm-hmm.
Jerrad:
they're so relationally dependent. And for the first like few days, it's a jostling of you, of your independence, you know, and
Justin Whitmel Earley:
That's
Jerrad:
then
Justin Whitmel Earley:
right.
Jerrad:
you kind of get like four or five days in and it's, it's like a drink of water that you've never had before or,
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yeah.
Jerrad:
or a kind of drink of water that you've never had. And it like satisfies in a way you're like, dude, I think this is how we were meant to live, but
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Ding ding ding.
Jerrad:
yeah, yeah. Unpack, like what do you, what comes to mind when you hear that?
Justin Whitmel Earley:
So this is the way we were meant to live. That is exactly, I think, what the Lord was working on me in as I was working through this book, which is why it ended up being titled Made for People, because it is this idea that that typical American experience of individualism is not just somewhat unhealthy, but it's actually antithetical to the gospel and the life that we were actually made for, which... brief says that you know God created Adam as the pinnacle of his creation I mean on the you know sixth day like he's there and he's called very good not just good but very good and God says good good good over and over in Genesis but then you get into chapter 2 of Genesis where God looks at Adam and remember this chapter 2 of Genesis not chapter 3 where the fall starts chapter 2 where God looks at him and says actually it's not good that you're alone which There's so many directions you can go with this, but the most important for the friendship is you can actually be with God and be in a not good state because you're alone. Which means that, it almost sounds blasphemous, but you're meant for more than just God. You're made for people such that you can't experience God the way that you're made to experience him until you experience him alongside others. And that alone right there. says enormous things about our spiritual life. And one of, you know, there's a ton of directions to go with why, how, what else, but I just wanna say, I wanna make friendship a word like quiet time, where you think of it and you think, oh, that's essential for my spiritual life. Like, I can't walk with Jesus unless I'm practicing friendship. That, I think, is the beginning and hopefully the end of the conversation. It's that spiritual, it's that important.
Jerrad:
Wow. Something you said there will prick some, like you said, you need more than just God. So people will, you'll hear that and they'll be like,
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Right.
Jerrad:
Oh geez, straight blast
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Wait.
Jerrad:
with me. You know,
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yeah.
Jerrad:
like, yeah, that will, that will prick. But I think what you alluded to, um, and, and answering why, like, why is that? Why did God create us like that? You know, and,
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yeah,
Jerrad:
and to
Justin Whitmel Earley:
it's
Jerrad:
be
Justin Whitmel Earley:
actually a sign of his generosity, not his lack. I mean, God is still the God who can make mountains melt. He's the one who created the galaxies. He made us, there's nothing missing in God. It's just that he actually created us with a need for, let's say, lateral relationship, such that, that's why I said it the way that we can't experience him the way we're made to experience him until we experience him alongside. other people. So it's not God's fault. It's actually kind of curiously generous that he's like, I'm going to make you not just to need me, but to need me alongside other people. It's almost a gift where he's like, I want you to have more. I want you to have other dynamics in your relationship. So I think there's a generosity and sort of a generosity to God's making us that way. It's certainly not his lack. But it stands. We need community. This runs through the entire Bible. We need relationships. And I would say the pinnacle form of that are deep friendships, which form the foundations of families and friendships and families and communities.
Jerrad:
hard because like what I was describing in the going away and serving, you know, that scenario, I come back and it's just, we live in a fiercely independent culture where even the people, the guys who like, okay, I want friends like that. How do you do that in a fast paced, hyper independent, hyper individualized culture where even the guys that I want to spend time with, I see them once every you know, three weeks. And it's not because we don't want to, like we all have the desire, but it's like I got families and wives and it's like, and I'm not expecting you to have any answer to that, but that's like, it's a really big conflict for a lot of people who long for those deep relationship, not just long for it, but need those really deep relationships that you're describing.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Well, it's an important thing to name. And so let's just leave out any solutions for the moment. I've got some ideas, but just to name that reality, I think says at least two things. One, you are not alone in your experience of aloneness. It is the common denominator of American life. And you might not call it loneliness, even though there's actually a lot of really interesting studies and stats on how loneliness... is affecting us mentally, mental health, physical health. It's this feeling of being surrounded by people, but not known by anybody. And so most people can relate to that, where it's like, okay, yeah, it's not like I never see anybody or don't know anybody or don't have any friends, but I'm not actually known by them. Or I don't actually have like a rhythm of relationship where I feel understood and drawn out. That, you're not alone. It's very, very common. And the reason you're not alone. is because that is the occurrence of American life. The current of American life is that you become, usually, like busier, wealthier people who used to have friends. And that's where, like a lot of the people that I know find themselves. Wealthier is debatable, but like you're just fighting, like you're doing more things, and you're trying to fight for upward mobility, and then you look around and you realize, there was a time in my life where I had friends, and that time is not here anymore. Like maybe it was high school, maybe it was college, maybe it was right after. There's forms in our life where relationship was, there was unhealthy soil that could grow. But now you look around, and this is what I think is so important, the current of American life pushes us away from that. So you're not alone and feeling alone, and if you're gonna do anything different, you're gonna have to swim against the current. You are gonna have to live differently, and frankly, fairly radically differently, to get to a different place. But. It may be the most important thing that you ever do. It may be exactly the thing your spiritual life has been yearning for that you're like, oh, I need to live radically differently so I can live into friendship because that is what I'm made for.
Jerrad:
I have so many thoughts on that, spinning through so many follow-up questions. You said though that you had some solutions in mind. Let's tackle some of those because some people are gonna be anxious like, all right, how do you do it and when I'm swimming in this current of culture.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yeah, well, so the way I break it up in the book is talking about some arts and some habits. And the reason I say that is because I want to honor the idea that friendships are complicated, relational things. You know, they're not things that you can just do, they're things you have to do with other people. And so there are some arts to being a good friend. We talk about some of those. But there are also some habits that you can put in place in your life of things. that you can try to do on a recurring basis that basically, I think, create the soil for friendship. So if you wanna swim upstream, you have to think of some of these arts and habits. I'll start with the arts. There's 10 chapters in the book and each one of them talks about an art, but I think some of the key ones that I really think about, and the book starts with these for a reason, the arts of vulnerability, the arts of honesty, and the art of promising. And... And those, we could have an hour conversation about any of those, but it's the idea of being known. So do you have, are you working towards in your life, relationships where you are actually honest about yourself and others? About yourself, I think I'd call that vulnerability. And about others, I'd call that honesty. But it's the idea that you're saying what you mean. You're not gonna do this with tons of people, right? I mean, You might know tons of people, you might have tons of people around you at church, you might have a big small group, whatever. I think it's the kind of friendships I'm talking about are the friendships you can usually count on one hand. Some people are blessed with more, but usually count on one hand and say, you know, this guy and this guy, they actually know me. I tell them what's really going on in my life and I key in on this. I don't have any secrets with them. I think becoming a person without secrets is an art of friendship, to say that there are a couple people who know me fully. And you know, I might pause. I can talk about honesty and covenant in a minute, but I might pause there, because I think vulnerability is the catalyst of true friendship, because it is what happens in the gospel. Like before Jesus, we are fully known and loved anyway, and really what I'm trying to get at in these kinds of friendships are people that you can know fully. and stick around and love anyway. And the beginning of that is vulnerability.
Jerrad:
Dude, I think that first of all, that's it's like the clearest picture of the gospel that we can give to each other that I
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yes.
Jerrad:
see all of who you are and I love you and I'm not going anywhere. That's the gospel.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Isn't that a beautiful thing to
Jerrad:
Yeah.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
have with other people? Yeah.
Jerrad:
Yeah. It's also it feels like the cheat code of life like abundant life and I say cheat code because like nobody really does it. But if you do do it, you're probably going to hack into. an abundant life that you literally didn't imagine could be possible.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
It is an open secret. I think it's a good way to put it, a cheat code. It's like, you've heard this before, it's not a surprise, but doing it
Jerrad:
Mm-hmm.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
is
Jerrad:
Mm-hmm.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
swimming upstream. Doing it, like actually having somebody you tell your secrets with, being vulnerable to. People are like, oh wait, that's way different than the life I live.
Jerrad:
And people don't like you don't really know the level of exhaustion it is to carry secrets until you until you have relationships where you don't
Justin Whitmel Earley:
So I've got a relationship with my two, arguably my two closest friends. I'm blessed with a couple closest friends, but two of my closest friends, Steve and Matt. And we have a call every week where it's just a quick touch point. It would ring an accountability call for a lot of people, but I think it's much more than that, where we just say, you know, what's happened this week? And then every other Tuesday, like on the off weeks, we actually try to get together. And. We miss like a ton, you know, like we aspire to every other Tuesday, it ends up maybe every month or you know, every couple weeks, but we spend hopefully an hour, you know, sharing a drink, sharing some conversation. And I think about this hour that happens like every other week or maybe every couple weeks, you know, there's certain things like eating, sleeping, working, that I have to do so many hours every day just to stay alive and then keep producing. But one hour. every couple weeks where I sit down with Steve and Matt and do this radical thing called telling the truth. It is so disproportionately powerful. It's only an hour and yet by being vulnerable, being heard, and the implied message is, I'm coming back again next week, you know, I love you anyway, is an incredibly life altering experience. And it is not rocket science complicated. It just, it does take courage though. It does take courage of saying, I'm actually gonna tell the truth to you, my friend. But I would just encourage people, literally, to try to put the courage in them. I would encourage you to say, this is what you were made for, this is what you were longing for, and also this is what the other people around you are longing for, for somebody to finally say, can I just say what's really happening? That's the beginning of every good relationship.
Jerrad:
Yeah.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
And so much good will come from that. And really, it's the way we practice the gospel, by saying, I know that Jesus knows me fully and loves me anyway, but do I believe it enough to actually be fully known in this relationship? And when you do that, you're like doing dress rehearsals of the gospel over and over and over,
Jerrad:
Hmm.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
which is the idea of becoming more like Jesus.
Jerrad:
disproportionately powerful, dude. That's like the that's the line right there. Because it just doesn't
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yeah.
Jerrad:
make sense that you can invest, you know, an hour and the amount of fruit that's going to come out of that. It's insane. You
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Mm-hmm.
Jerrad:
will walk away carrying the burden of Jesus, which is light, the yoke of Jesus, which is light, you will you will come away, you know, loving your wife better, being more free with
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Amen.
Jerrad:
kids more short, less short tempered. with your
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Amen.
Jerrad:
kids, like you just, the disproportionately more powerful, it's insane.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
I tell this little story in the book, but it was so powerful to me. My wife, this is recently actually, just a couple months ago, rolled over in bed. We were about to just turn off the lights and asked me out of the blue, hey, are you keeping any secrets? Which is a wild question to be asked at like, oh, it was 11 p.m. We had
Jerrad:
Yeah.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
just shut out the lights with no context. And I later found out it was because She had just heard about a fairly close but old friend whose husband left them and many of their children All because of a secret that he had kept that just grew and grew and grew and grew and grew And you said it a second ago Jared the weight Of secrets the burden that you carry when you are fighting whatever that struggle is And we all have them When you are fighting it alone, yeah, it's so heavy And it was an amazing moment, I think, to be able to roll over and look my wife in the eye and say, no, actually, for you and for our boys, I do the hard and yet freeing work of not keeping secrets. It's hard to explain how light I feel, not because I'm good. Everybody here knew my secrets. They were like, ew, we don't wanna know everything. But a couple friends, Steve and Matt, knowing my secrets. It changed, like I feel strong going out into the world because I feel known and loved anyway. And I think that is the power of Jesus and it's the power of friendship and it's why we need friendship if we're gonna be more like Jesus.
Jerrad:
I mean, the book of James confess your sins to one another that you would be healed.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yes.
Jerrad:
Like it, it's just few people are finding healing. It's a, like, it's an open secret. As you said, it's
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yes.
Jerrad:
right there.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yes.
Jerrad:
I mean, if we're willing to do it, it's right there. Uh, we could experience healing. There's a lot of dudes who would love to be healed and just, uh, they, they don't have, or they're not pursuing that level of friendship to get there. Um, you know what else comes to mind? I'm thinking about like, um, how hard it is to like book a counselor, how busy counselors are right now.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Oh my
Jerrad:
And
Justin Whitmel Earley:
gosh.
Jerrad:
it's because there is this like innate longing for people to be able to just share everything and
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yeah.
Jerrad:
not feel like they're gonna be judged and I can just get everything off my chest. But it's like they're filling in the gaps of what friendship was meant to be.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
I think that is worth dwelling on for a second because on the one hand, I think it's wonderful that more and more people are like, oh, I should talk to a counselor. I
Jerrad:
Mm-hmm.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
fully support that. I was actually listening to the president of a counseling center the other day talk about their counseling, their philosophy, and I had my hand raised to ask a question, and it was on friendship. And my question was gonna be, if we were really doing friendship, would we need? counselors like we apparently need them now. And I felt like kind of like scared because I was like I don't want this to be an insult to their profession. I think we really need it. But it was funny before this person got to me somebody else asked a question and she, the president of this organization, just answered, look if we had friends, real friends, we would almost be out of business and that would be okay. And I was like oh my gosh like exactly and I think Probably every counselor out there is saying, the best homework they could give somebody is to say, go seek intimate relationship with somebody where you can tell the truth and hear the truth back. And it's just, it is the life we were made for, which is why it would, quote unquote, put counselors out of business. And that would be great. That's what the new heavens and the new earth looks like, is that we don't
Jerrad:
Yeah.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
need, you know, rehabilitating trauma therapy because we're doing it together. Now we've been set free and we're open together. So I do think it's incredibly important for your spiritual life. And if you wanna give any gift to your wife, if you wanna give any gift to your kids, give them the gift of having a father and a husband who leaves a legacy of friendship, who's known by people, not hidden from people, and thus parents. and acts out as a spouse in the power of being known. It's an incredible gift to your
Jerrad:
Hmm,
Justin Whitmel Earley:
family.
Jerrad:
geez, wow. You mentioned one of the arts, you talked about vulnerability, honesty, and then you said promise, which when I was subconsciously finishing your list, I didn't have promises on that. Vulnerability and honesty, I probably could have, if I were playing like, what's the one where Steve Harvey, it's a deal, make a deal or whatever.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yeah, I get what you're going.
Jerrad:
Yeah, whatever that one, I could have answered that. But I wouldn't have had promises on there. Like, what did you mean when you threw out the word promises?
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yeah, I like that you said that because I don't think I'm being original in any sense, but I do think I'm maybe trying to offer something back that's been lost or forgotten. And that's the commitment or the covenant or the promising that friendship involves. And it's really the idea, you know, a friend is faithful, you know, the Proverbs say, that we are built not just for flash in the pan moments of vulnerability. but for people who stick around across time, which is the way you say that second half of the gospel, you know, like, you're known fully, but loved anyway. That loved anyway part, I think, is not just a blessing of I love you in this moment, though it is. It's also this idea that I'll be there tomorrow for you. Okay, and when we do this in marriage, I mean, marriage is even a greater, probably a... just a more accurate, more true, biblically ordained symbol of the gospel. We see that in Ephesians. But I would just think of friendship as being a little bit more like marriage than you might think, as in we need a little bit of promising or I like to call it gestures of covenant, which like I'm a writer, I like words. So that might sound like a mouthful, but what I mean by that is just signals, even if we're not like, I'm going to be your friend for life and we're going to be buried beside each other, like, which can get a little weird. Um, but signals that. I'm not going anywhere. And at the lowest level, that might be the idea that you plan a vacation together, where you're sort of like, hey, this time next year, let's do a great trip. Or I had a friend give, I was a groomsman in his wedding, he gave the groomsman bottles of scotches with the year written on top, we were allowed to drink them together, and some of the years were two decades out. So it was this incredible signal of, hey, you and I are still gonna be talking 20 years from now. Let's make sure. And there's a lot in between, you know, having a weekly coffee or an annual camping trip. There's a lot of ways to do this and gesture covenant. But what I'm suggesting is that when we live in this current of modernity, that's driving us towards busy, over-scheduled loneliness, the last thing that we're gonna do is schedule friendship or signal that like we expect to still have it in a year. because everything else is taking us away. So I think you're fighting against the uncertainty of the future and making a promise and saying, hey, in this uncertain future, you and I, let's still be battling this out together. Let's still be efforting at friendship. And I think in our age, that's one of the arts we need to practice. Maybe not in all times. It's probably easier in ancient times. It's probably easier in a lot of other cultures besides America where you just sort of get, hey, this is the... group I'm stuck with. They're good at covenant. They're just, they're stuck together.
Jerrad:
I'm
Justin Whitmel Earley:
And
Jerrad:
sorry.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
there's a lot of common grace in that, but we need to fight for it. The book is subtitled, "'Why We Drift into Loneliness' "'and How to Fight for a Life of Friendship." And in order to fight for friendship, you need to figure out how to gesture some covenant into the future and make some promises big or small.
Jerrad:
You talk about gesturing, how much of that, like with those friends, those two friends that you have, how much of that was formalized? Like where you agree, you made some kind of like agreement that, dude, I'm with you, or like you verbally said
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yeah.
Jerrad:
it? Because a lot of us, like I just think of the friends in my life who we kind of know that, but we've never like said it maybe out loud.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Mm. Mm.
Jerrad:
You know what I mean? And like,
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Well.
Jerrad:
is there power in like saying it?
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yes, yes. Okay, so that's an easy question. Yes. Actually, one of the things that I would really encourage people to is to naming. Just to think about Adam in the garden. One of the divine powers that God bestowed upon him as the caretaker of creation was to name the animals. And if you think about that in the context of Genesis 1, God just created the world through words. And then he turns to Adam and he says, you know, basically your turn. You know, you start naming things, you create realities. I'll be at smaller and not ex nihilo, but we create actually through words. And so when we name a relationship, whether that's saying, hey, you're a covenant friend, and that's a term that I use in the book of signaling a different kind of friendship, because friendships. Fraught word. I mean you have Facebook friends. You people are not sure about what the meaning of friend is So I offer the idea of a covenant friend to signal this sort of like deep abiding committed relationship Just sort of naming that with somebody is an incredibly powerful thing to do and I have had relationships over the spectrum where with some of my closest friends that I talked about in the book you just mentioned Matt and Steve We've said it I mean we've said you know, we've actually moved to Richmond, where we live now, to be around each other. And none of us, there were times, we met here, but we all kind of moved back after, and it was in no small part because of each other. So we've made some gestures of covenant to say, we're gonna live life alongside each other. And yes, each of us would look at each other and say, one of us is gonna see the other die. Like, we expect to be friends until the end. And that is really far, I encourage it, but it's really far on one end of the intentionality spectrum. Way on the other end should be smaller things, but still really important. And I've had friendships like this where it's just been a coffee where we're having a great conversation and somebody says, you know, this relationship has given me a lot of life. We should lean into this a little bit. And it can be that simple. But both of those things are... honoring the God-given power of naming and saying something on purpose to a friend and saying this relationship is meaningful. We should X. We think about this in romantic relationships because we think about do you want to go on another date with me or do you know do you want to be committed? Are we going steady? Are we let me think of all the outdated ways I can phrase it. But we think of like oh we need to name the relationship because what we're headed towards is a covenant relationship called marriage. And we're trying to figure out like, are we getting there? Friendship is not that. I mean, you can have a lot of friends, you can lose friendships, and none of it is like marriage. And you just, you shouldn't have a lot of spouses, and you ideally shouldn't lose spouses, right? Friendship is different, definitively different. And yet there is something enduring and important about covenant where we move towards promises rather than away. And so in some small way, approximating the naming of those relationships, I think is just really, really healthy for us.
Jerrad:
As I'm hearing you describe this, it's inspiring. And I'm also thinking about how it's just gonna rub all the millennial side of like any millennial and under, you know, like, dude, I can't commit to like commit to you. Like we're gonna open this bottle of whatever in 20 years. Like, bro, I don't even know if I'm gonna be around in two years or two weeks to like, I don't wanna commit to anything, which is, you know, that's such our culture, right? Which is. I was thinking about when you said at the very beginning, it's just so radical because we just, we are a very anti commitment people and uh, which I guess gives so much power to what you're saying to live radically and to look somebody in the eye and say, dude, I'm, I'm going to stay in this town. I might, I might reconsider a job offer because I want to be near you. I want to raise our kids together. I want to do life together with you. I want you to be able to look me in the eye. call me out on hard things and push me toward things. That's crazy radical.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
I would just say, yep, exactly. That's the point.
Jerrad:
Yeah.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
If you want, it takes no work to drift along in the current of loneliness. If you want to do nothing, you're doing something very significant. You're just gonna keep drifting. But, you know, I would be honest, yeah, these things that I'm talking about are not easy. They're not normal. But nothing worth doing is easy, and most things worth doing aren't normal either. So I am absolutely 100% Jared talking about something that is counter-cultural, difficult, and should feel like, whoa, I'm trying hard at something. But I will also say that on the flip side of that, it's why Jesus used that fascinating metaphor that he did. My yoke is easy, my burden is light. There is a yoke to it, there is a burden to it. These things are radical hard things to do, but. the good life is on the other side of these things. So, crazy? Absolutely. Worth it? Yep. So, I'm gonna go ahead and say that I'm not gonna go into the details of the video, but I'm gonna go through the details of the video and I'm gonna go through the details of the video and I'm gonna go through the details
Jerrad:
Yeah, yeah. It's really, it really is beautiful and inspiring. And I hope a lot of people walk away from this thinking, dude, I had never thought through friendship and that level of like covenant friendship, um, as a spiritual discipline. And I hope that there are a lot of people, um, who decide that they're going to make some sacrifices to pursue that. You know, I just being honest, dude, like, I think one, there's a part of my heart that feels kind of sad. I grew up with my mom and three sisters, no dad around, no brothers. And I've always watched how hard it is for women to have these kind of relationships. It seems like, I'm thinking of like how easy, I've moved a lot of places and how easy it's been for me to kind of insert new friends and even deep levels of friendship wherever I go. But I watched my wife and other women and it seems. I don't know, I'm probably overgeneralizing it, but sometimes it seems like it's harder for women to find these kind of levels of friendship. And maybe that's just my own perspective and we're a podcast for dudes, so maybe it doesn't matter for this conversation. But I'm curious
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Yeah.
Jerrad:
what you think about that.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
You know, I think the stereotypes cut both ways. I lots of times hear people say, oh, you know, this is easier for women. Guys have a hard time actually talking and being honest with each other. And I'd say sort of, yes. But I actually see a lot of guys in my life looking for these kinds of conversations. And so I just don't know if the stereotype holds everywhere, but sometimes, and if so, yeah. Like I wanna push guys towards vulnerability and honesty. But then I and I see the other side of the stereotype of like you have a guys just like we get into relationships and we're maybe more chill about them or we can overlook certain things and girls are maybe more sensitive and It gets harder for them and I think You know, I haven't seen a lot of that in my relationships but sometimes yeah, and if that's the case of one of the chapters in the the book is about the art of forgiveness because Whether you're a guy or a girl Relationships get fraught like sticking around with anybody for more than an hour is hard, right? You think about like, you got a lot of friends who you love coffee for an hour with, but do you wanna be alone in a cabin with them? Or
Jerrad:
So,
Justin Whitmel Earley:
okay,
Jerrad:
yeah.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
you love a cabin weekend together, but do you wanna like travel with them a week?
Jerrad:
Yeah.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
Extend any relationship out across time, which incidentally is exactly what I'm suggesting. And you can have a lot of problems, a
Jerrad:
Yeah.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
lot of problems, but that's not the surprise. So the big question mark is will we forgive each other? Can we figure out how to stay friends? And I think whether you're a guy or whether you're a girl, you're gonna need to learn to practice the art of forgiveness, which again, is as with all of this, is looking to Jesus as the master of friendship and saying, can I be more like him and saying that it's no surprise that me and my other friend, both of whom are sinners, have a lot of problems. It's no surprise that we hurt each other. It's no surprise that we offend each other, but could we surprisingly Practice the grace of forgiving each other. It's actually one of my favorite chapters in the book because it is so Saturated with our need for forgiveness from Jesus
Jerrad:
Mm.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
and the hard work it is to extend it to other people So I just say, you know guy or girl it's hard and guy or girl you're gonna need forgiveness, but it's worth pursuing and French and Forgiveness is always worth practicing. I've never regretted an apology. I've often regretted not giving them, but I've never regretted giving them.
Jerrad:
Well dude, I've read the book and I was able to get an early copy of it and had the honor of giving an endorsement to it but even in our conversation makes me want, I'm super excited about the audiobook version of this. Hopefully you're reading, do you get to read your audiobook?
Justin Whitmel Earley:
I'm insisting on reading because I, yes, for many reasons I'll be reading it to you. You out
Jerrad:
PEEP
Justin Whitmel Earley:
there listening, if you want me to read you the book I'd be happy to.
Jerrad:
Yeah, people probably don't know this, but like, like I have to audition to
Justin Whitmel Earley:
You get
Jerrad:
read
Justin Whitmel Earley:
to audition
Jerrad:
my own.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
to read
Jerrad:
Yeah,
Justin Whitmel Earley:
your own book. Yeah,
Jerrad:
people
Justin Whitmel Earley:
it's funny.
Jerrad:
probably don't know that, but you have to like, as an author, you have to audition, which I guess makes sense. You might have an author who's great at writing and terribly does a terrible job at, you know, the audio version. But anyway, I'm very excited for your audio book to just put that on and listen to that. But dude. I just love the work you're doing, man. I know you and I have talked offline about partnering together in some way. We don't know what that would look like, but I just, our hearts are so aligned. And, um, I think you're just, you're this particular conversation is going to be really, really helpful, challenging, encouraging to our community. So thank you for taking the time to hang out and share some of your wisdom with us.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
I hope so, man, and thank you for taking the time. Every time we talk, I feel like, man, something's going on here. So let's see what the Lord does with it. But thanks
Jerrad:
Yeah.
Justin Whitmel Earley:
for this conversation. It's been wonderful.
Jerrad:
Yeah, thanks, bro.