Travis Hearne - Why Do I Need God In My PTSD Journey?

Show Notes

Travis Hearne - Why Do I Need God In My PTSD Journey? by Browncroft Community Church

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Peter Englert: Welcome to the “Why God Why?” podcast. My name is Peter Englert. I am here with our special producer, Dan Austin, because Nathan is away today. And then, I didn't want to say sub, but anyways. With the-

Aaron Mercer: You're smiling so that's a good thing. We're okay.

Peter Englert: The illustrious cohost, Aaron Mercer. Hello, hello.

Aaron Mercer: You could say illustrious producer too if you wanted to. I think Dan could take that.

Peter Englert: We could, we could.

Aaron Mercer: Dan's a pretty great guy over there.

Peter Englert: He is. Well, anyways.

Aaron Mercer: All right, we'll move on.

Peter Englert: We have a great podcast episode. We are here with Travis Hearne. He is a veteran and now currently working in the marketplace, but he's responding to the question, "Why do I need God in my PTSD journey?" And I think this is an important question because our goal as a podcast is to respond to the questions that you don't feel comfortable asking in church and so I think that some form of this question has probably come up and this is our July 4th episode. So I think no matter if you've experienced PTSD or know someone that has, I think this is going to be helpful to you.

Aaron Mercer: Yeah. I'm really looking forward to this conversation, Travis, thanks so much for being on with us. And obviously this is an important issue in our country. It has been for a long time, and it's certainly something that we are grappling with today. And yeah, no, I'm thankful for Travis, looking forward to his insights and Peter, thanks for setting us up to, I think it's an important conversation for us to be having. There's so many people who are affected by this and particularly among our veterans. And Travis, I see I have a little bit of background on you here, but I wonder if you could just kind of introduce yourself for our listening audience, so they know more about your history and how you got on this podcast.

Travis Hearne: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you guys so much just for having me. It really is an honor to come talk about this topic, because it's something that's really near and dear to my heart and the journey that I walked and continue to walk is something that's been helpful to me, and if we can talk about this in any other way to spread this to anybody that it may be helpful to, I believe that's why God puts us through some of these things.
So a little bit of background on me is I spent about nine years in the Marine Corps from 2006 to 2016, just back and forth from Iraq and Afghanistan from 2008 to 2009, Afghanistan in 2010 and just some amazing, amazing opportunities to be able to help our country do great things. So from about 2011 to 2016, they stationed me here in beautiful Colorado Springs, Colorado, which the biggest mistake the Marine Corps ever made was sending me to a nice place like this, because that was my ticket to ride in about nine years. So [inaudible], I was working in the United States Northern Command for about another five years working kind of, I did some counter-cartel work and then we moved into some more counter-narcotics, counter-cartel, counter-terrorism, a lot of counter work. So trying to stop bad people from doing bad things to the country. So I did that until about 2019 and then I moved into the counter-cyber security realm from countering cyber threats to the United States as well.
So after doing that for about ooh, 16 years, I jumped the government ship and started working in the private sector for the past 11 months. So it's been great to be able to jump on these kind of podcasts and talk about these really high level, really important issues. Was introduced to Peter through a mutual friend, Becky Harling, who's an amazing woman, amazing leader, and she made the connection. Peter and I talked, we had a conversation and probably could have talked for another two hours about how important this conversation is and then how important this is to release the stigma from it, to just have it out in the open and just discuss it. So that's kind of a snapshot of how we got from there to this morning, or this afternoon for you guys.

Peter Englert: Before we jump into your personal story, I think this is important to set some context for our listeners. So we live in a culture, I think about ADD and ADHD, attention deficit disorder and also PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder, and we're more adept at saying that, but do you feel like there's a positive and negative of the awareness of these types of things, especially PTSD? Are you concerned, how, as you've seen the culture change in responding to it, there still is a little bit of a stigma, but there's also almost, I feel like, almost too much comfort with people like yourself that have actually faced it. How do you navigate that tension?

Travis Hearne: Yeah. It's such a crazy dichotomy of this. Yeah, we want the stigma to be released from these diagnoses, what, it's ADHD, PTSD. We don't want the stigma that's attached to these anymore. And it is, especially in the veteran community, it was very, it was seen as... You didn't want to go see the chaplain if you were having a problem that was going to be a label that was put on you with your buddies, with your command, with everybody else. So I think that narrative is changing a bit as we come out of Afghanistan. I think it's becoming more and more common that military members are allowed or are able to voice concerns of, Hey, I've experienced some trauma, I may need some help. I need to walk through some issues. And I think that's a really good part of it.
And on the flip side of it, it's becoming more mainstream and I believe it's becoming a broad topic of conversation and sometimes I believe it can be misused. It can be misused in veteran life and civilian life, and I think people can use it in different ways that are not necessarily good for the whole community of those who are walking with post-traumatic stress or ADHD or these different things. So I think it's a weird dichotomy. Yes, the stigma's kind of changing and the narrative is changing around PTSD and different disorders, and at the same time, we have to be careful when we start talking about it, because these things trigger in many, many different ways for different people.

Peter Englert: What... Oh, just one follow up to that because I think... What specifically bothers you the most about it becoming more mainstream to your experience?

Travis Hearne: And yeah. So becoming more mainstream, it's not necessarily a [inaudible]. It's just, I just really want us to be careful when we throw around the words PTSD. I think there's different levels of PTSD, I think there's different, it's a diagnosis, it's a medical diagnosis. So I think it's like it's something that needs to, when we talk about PTSD, we need to be very careful on the conversations, much like this one. And we need to be able to address it specifically because trauma and PTSD looks different for every single person. It looks different for every human. Every human experiences trauma in a different way, every person adapts and internalizes trauma in a different way. So when we start talking about trauma and different things that have happened in our lives, and we talk about PTSD, I believe those two, we just need to walk lightly or tread lightly when we dive into those conversations specifically.

Aaron Mercer: Yeah, no, thank you for that. I, and Peter, I'm sorry, I was jumping the gun there, but I actually did want to kind of, I wanted to maybe back up a minute just for those, for everyone who's listening. Can you tell us a little bit more about what PTSD is first of all, and how, specifically within the military, the veteran community, how are you seeing... Are you seeing it increasing, are you seeing it just becoming more understood? What are the levels we're talking about here? And maybe even, if there is an increase then why? I mean, I think maybe just a more base level understanding, especially for people who aren't necessarily in or surrounded by the military community on a daily basis would be great to, I think, dig down a little bit further.

Travis Hearne: Yeah. No, absolutely. And I can explain what that looks like for me. Again, I'm not clinical in any way, but I can explain what the PTSD, what that actually looks like for me.

Aaron Mercer: Sure.

Travis Hearne: Yeah. So it looks a lot like, and this is kind of, and we can get into the journey when I first... When I first got back from Afghanistan in 2010, it was my wife that... About a year later, about 2011, my wife looked at me, she's like, man, there's some different things going on. Something else came back with you from Afghanistan and this is something that we need to figure out. We lost three Marines in Afghanistan and then coming home, we lost a couple more to suicide. So all of these things were just, it was eating at me, it was hitting me, and then the actual, what we were doing in Afghanistan and Iraq, it was just, all these things were compounding onto me where it became just this very numb feeling. There wasn't really any emotion coming from me. I wasn't able to verbalize emotion. I wasn't able to verbalize really much of anything. Extreme hyper-vigilance, sleeping was difficult. So it was, it's just all these different things that weren't with me when I left for Iraq and then when I came back from Afghanistan in 2010, came back home with me.
So what that started to look like was, okay, my wife said, this is something that I know you don't notice, but I do. So we need to figure out a way that we can walk through this. We need to get some help. And at that point it was in about 2010, 2011, we were still in the throws of Afghanistan rotation, deployment rotations were still happening. People were rotating in and out of Iraq and Afghanistan, both. So it was still in this weird space of, Hey, we don't really have time to address this issue because we have to get back out to Afghanistan. We have nine months to be home, but we have to train to be able to get back out the door. So that was kind of the mindset at least for me and for my unit. For the Marines that I was with was okay, let's just shake this thing off, let's blink our eyes a couple times and let's get ready to get back into the fight, because that's what we had to do. That was our job.
As we've come out and I think rotations have slowed down, there's still deployments going on, still men and women doing amazing things in uniform. But as the Iraq and Afghanistan deployment started to slow down, I believe we started to see veterans have a hard time. For me, it took me about a year to really realize that this was trauma, that I was being impacted by this trauma that I experienced and then it was compounded, again, by the friends we lost to suicide when we came home and it was just, all these things took a little while to build up. And now that I think that we've been home and we've been able to kind of fit into a culture where the culture, the conversations are changing, the PTSD conversations are changing and it is becoming a little bit more mainstream.
So if there is an increase in diagnosis and increase in people walking through this journey, my opinion would be it's because we've had a chance to come and sit down, slow down and really understand what came home with us rather than what we left with. And those things really start to just churn up as time goes on in kind of our society and our culture where it's much different from being deployed. It's just a completely different world. So I think that, if anything, the time that has passed and that will continue to pass, it could be a reason for an uptick in PTSD diagnoses, and also just the realization of trauma, if that makes sense.

Aaron Mercer: Yeah. Have you found that the military community or the veterans, whether it's official government resources or even just kind of services or maybe ministries that are surrounding veterans and their families, have you found that there's a increased recognition of maybe some of the warning signs, I guess, of PTSD for one thing, but also ways to try to help both the soldiers who were down range, who were deployed, as well as their families as they're adjusting? Are you seeing more recognition and more services?

Travis Hearne: No, absolutely. And this, and I've been out of the game, the military game since 2016, but still working within the military for the past, since at least up until 2020. But what I've seen is one of the great things is that it's becoming more mainstream. That has taken, it's becoming more talked about. There's more trainings, there's more resources that the military's making available. I believe, in my opinion, the VA's done a great job of being able to clean things up and provide veterans with some resources, that nobody is perfect in any stretch of the mind, but since we have slowed down these rotations to Iraq and Afghanistan, and it's coming to a close, it's kind of being talked about more and it's... Unfortunately the signs of military members coming home, that trauma came home with them as there's domestic violence issues, there's alcohol issues. There's these issues that really lead to, Hey, there may be a problem here. So those incidents are increasing as well.
So that is one of the tell tale signs that, Hey, let's just dig into this a little bit deeper. So, but that being said, the military community, I think, we can always do a better job about walking with and destigmatizing this trauma. But what I found when I moved to Colorado Springs and kind of away from the Marine Corps, I was at Camp Pendleton for five years, which is all Marine all the time. It was great. They were very insular. We were just, I was around Marines 24/7.
Then I came to Colorado Springs and it was just, there was 34 of us in this huge military command. And it was different. It was a different life, a different ballgame. And we started going to church and we dug into the military ministry here in Colorado Springs and started getting involved in that. And it was just through that, it has, I never knew that existed when I was in California. I was so focused on getting out the door and fighting and do this, that, training, this, that and the other that I didn't really take the time to see what was out there. But when I got to Colorado, my aperture opened up and all of a sudden there was a ministry opportunity. There was different programs that didn't have anything to do with the military government that were available. And my eyes really opened to that once I was able to settle down, get out of that deployment rotation and realize that I actually needed to walk down a path of healing, that if I looked hard enough, there were resources available.

Peter Englert: So I want to come back to your personal story and you've kind of hinted at it, but I'd love for you to kind of walk us to where you are today by first of all starting, your wife said, Hey, you brought something else home with you, which was PTSD. So I guess I'd be curious what did that look like? Was it a disconnection, not feeling of emotions, but to help our listeners kind of walk into your life. But then our whole question today and you were very adamant, and this is what I love about guests. You're like, the question is, why do I need God through my PTSD journey? So you've kind of hinted at it. So you went from, Hey, acknowledging this is a problem to, from what you shared with me, it was holistic. It was church. It was therapy. You've mentioned this ministry to where you are today. Walk us through that process of kind of the before and where you are today of how you kind of identified but also pursued healing.

Travis Hearne: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like I said, my wife, when she made that statement, it was just this moment of like, okay, let's start whatever process we need to, I don't know what this looks like. So a little bit more background. I did not grow up in a Christian home. My wife, again, was really the catalyst to bring me to Christ, to my ultimate. We were baptized together in 2010, we just walked this great journey, but I didn't grow up knowing anything about Christ, about God, about salvation, about healing. I didn't know anything about that. So we were still really early along in our journey when this happened. About 2011, we were early along in our walk with Christ and we didn't know what it looked like, so we were like, okay, let's just start going through the motions. What do we need to do? We need to find you a counselor. We need to find you this. We need to get you into counseling. We need to figure out some of the EMDR treatments. We need to get you some treatments.
So we did that. We found a good counselor. We started the treatment and we started this process of counseling. And it was great. I was able to unpack a lot of things and I was able to really dissect and understand the meaning behind why I was doing some of the things I was doing, whether it was the hyper-vigilance, whether it was just operating out of anger, whether it was operating, it was just operating in this, like, if it wasn't numb, it was anger. That was my default. And so understanding that, just that part of it, like, Hey, you're operating out of anger, was great. The information was great. So about a year into it, I've been doing the counseling and the EMDR and it's still lingering, it's getting better, very, very, very slowly. And talking to some of the people in the military, some of the military resources, like, yeah, that's the process. It's a slow process, and you're going to be living with this the rest of your life. This is just what happens.
So at that point, I was like, that can't be the total answer. So we, and like I mentioned before, the military ministry at our church here, I started getting plugged into there. I'm like, there's something about these guys that is different. They're a group of military members. There was some SF guys in there. There was a retired Colonel who was actually in the Pentagon when it got hit on 9/11. All these men and women who have walked through some stuff and are living their best lives. And I'm like, okay, there's something to that. What is that? So I started asking questions about okay, what do you do differently? This is what I'm doing. How do we walk this differently? And the first question was, he was like, well, what is your verse that's going to help you get through this? And I was like, my verse that's going to help me get through this? I have no idea what that means. What does that mean?
So the chaplain, he was the military chaplain, we actually had a chaplain at the church, he's like, okay, let's sit down, let's walk through this. As you are going through your different treatments and your healing, you need to have, along with the rest of your life, your foundation has to be in Christ. Your healing foundation has to be in Christ and a verse is going to help you stay tethered to that. So we came up with a couple of them. So my first verse was like, okay, what am I going to do? What is the military mantra? I'll do it, raise my hand. I'll go. So, Isaiah 6, when the Lord says, "'Whom shall I send, who will go for us?' And so I heard the voice of the Lord say that, and I said, 'Here am I.'" So that was the foundation of this. Okay, here am I. I am ready to do this. I'm ready to put this work in with you, God, let's just... I don't know what it's going to look like, but here I am, my hands are up. Let's figure this out.
So we started walking through that and then it changed my perspective in the healing journey. It changed my healing perspective of a full involvement in Christ in the process, not just going through the process, but involving Christ in the process, praying before, praying after, praying during, and then processing the process with this military community that I've come really close with. And then as we started walking, I started meeting other people in that community, in that military ministry community that were walking through some of the similar things that I was, and it started, it was kind of like this game of just this race game where I would be a little bit ahead and I'd be like, okay, well, I know a little bit more of the puzzle, here's what's helped me, and then I'd be able to help them walk through something to help them to increase their faith and their walk with Christ and their healing journey.
And then I would get a little bit more ahead, and it was just like this constant race back and forth where I would be able to pass on some of the things that I was learning in my walk to these other military members. And it was just, I found that God was turning my story, my trauma story into a healing story for others. And as I continued to go through scripture and involve God in the process of healing, we started walking through Psalm 91, "Whoever dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say to the Lord, 'He's my refuge, my fortress and my God in whom I trust.'" That became my new mantra.
And it's just that has been... As I've walked through it and I will continue to walk through it, it's just been, I've seen God do amazing things and use this story of trauma to help other people, which is, I truly believe is the reason that I walked through some of the things I walked through in Iraq and Afghanistan and coming home was to be able to turn this around and flip the enemy on his head. The enemy wants to use this to steal, kill and destroy, but God wants to use this to heal us and to bring truth into our lives.
So tangibly seeing that, and not even meaning to do it was something that was, it was amazing to me. And being able to continue to walk in that and in this to bring these two seemingly separate entities together, the military and the church, to bridge that gap, to bring true healing, it's been fantastic. And it's been, some of the stories that have come out of some of these conversations that we've had, or these walks that we've had with other people through our Reboot programs and through different programs that we've jumped into just has been truly astonishing, and I don't think, and I probably would've gotten to where I am today had I stayed steady with the process that I was on, the EMDR, the counseling, but adding Jesus into the mix changed the game. It changed it from a healing story of just myself that's going to take a long time to a healing story within myself that's going to help others and will be more rapid and continuous.

Aaron Mercer: Wow. That is so powerful. Thank you for sharing that. That's amazing to hear. And I just wanted to say, actually, while I'm saying thank you, let me say thank you too for putting yourself in harm's way for us. I mean, I know you've been, like so many other soldiers, you have been on the front lines for us in Iraq of Afghanistan, and I mean, I don't need to know if there's other places or not, but we know that. And thank you also for, I know you've been on the front lines for us in more the online world too, but, so thank you for protecting us, all the counter work you said you did.
And also, I just want to thank you for sharing that testimony, too, of God working in you, an ongoing process, I know, towards healing. I know it's not like a one and done thing, but, and he's using you as you're healing to help heal others. I mean, that's so amazing and powerful. So I'm curious, as you're helping other people, as God is helping you and using others to help you, what are your hopes for helping other people? And I actually have a two part question here, is that okay, Peter?

Peter Englert: Oh yeah.

Aaron Mercer: Is that allowed? All right. So, and the other part is, I'm curious what you would say to someone who, you live in a community where there's a lot of military around you. Colorado Springs obviously is a big military community. What would you say to someone who doesn't necessarily live in a military community, but they have friends who might be a veteran. How can they sensitively be helping someone and being sensitive there? I know you mentioned at the beginning, you want to be careful not to judge something one way or another, but how can someone be trying to help others like you're helping others right now? Is there a place that you would point them? So that's kind of a big question. The good thing on a big question is you get to answer however you want. So, yeah, go ahead.

Travis Hearne: Perfect. So kind of to address the first, what I hope to see from this is I really hope to see that whether the PTSD comes from combat, whether it comes from a car accident, whatever that walk looks like for someone walking through trauma, that they can just lean into, not their own understanding, but God's, and understand that not only is there healing for what they're going through, but there is use for their story, that their story has meaning, that they can take their story of trauma and turn it into something that God will... God does amazing things anyway, but what he can do with a trauma story and what I've seen him do with trauma stories, man, it's a whole nother level stuff.
And that's my hope is that people that are walking in this can lean into God to gain healing and also to lean into God to help them use their story to help others. Those are the two things. And trauma is a beast. It's not fun. It's unfortunately very common and people can go to very dark places and feel isolated, and that's another hope for this is just if you are feeling isolated, just to understand that you cannot... This is something that you need people around you with. You need friends to pray for you, you need friends to lean on, you need family to just come alongside you and don't do this alone. That is my hope is that if anything, if you hear anything from any of this, it's just you need to, you cannot do this alone, not only without Jesus, but without friends, without people to pray for you, holistic, just healthy, just friends. You need a network.
And then the second part of that is, and I may go off on another tangent like I have been doing for the past 30 minutes, but when, people that don't live in the community, the people that don't live in this, they are not really have an understanding of the military community or of trauma or of how this whole thing works, because it is complex. The human brain, the way the brain deals with trauma is very complex and it looks different in everyone. And so one would be just if you feel like you can interject in some way, start by asking a bunch of good questions. Just start by asking the questions of, Hey, what's your walk with God like? What is this [inaudible] and so putting this through the lens of how Jesus can help, what is your walk with God like? Do you have a life verse? Do you have a healing verse?
That was the first question that I was asked and I was just like, I don't know. I don't even know what that means, but that was, like I said, that was what tethered me to this to be able to keep coming back to the Lord, keep coming back to scripture, to be able to help me walk through this. So starts by asking a lot of really good questions and just being there to listen and just having an open ear and being willing to jump into some of the really, really hard stuff, because trauma, like I said, it comes with a lot of really hard stuff and it can be difficult to walk with somebody through that. I know my wife, she could do a whole podcast on why did I do this with my husband?

Aaron Mercer: Yeah.

Travis Hearne: But it's a tough thing to walk through with somebody and there has to be a lot of patience, a lot of grace and just a lot of time spent walking with somebody in this. So be patient, ask a lot of questions and just be open and be willing to be vulnerable, to be able... And that goes on both sides. That was one of the other things that I found early on in my walk was I was just like it's okay, I'm going to check this box, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. I'm not really going to go get down to the issues of these things. I'm not going to be vulnerable with this person I don't even know who's walking through all these different things, but if you're trying to walk through this and you don't necessarily have the military community surrounding you, just be vulnerable, or you don't have the, if you're walking through this outside of the military community, just be vulnerable when you're going through these counseling sessions and you're tethering back to Jesus and vulnerability is what's going to get you there.
Knowing what you were going through, just being vulnerable with yourself and vulnerable with others is huge because that's going to bring truth and it's going to bring healing to the places that darkness hides. So hopefully that answers one of the questions. I know you gave me freedom to go kind of go anywhere, but no, hopefully that helps answer some of them.

Aaron Mercer: No, that was great. Thank you so much.

Peter Englert: No, I think that that's great. And I want to get kind of super specific, so this episode is coming out a few days before July 4th. Memorial Day was about a month ago, you have July 4th and we have Veterans Day. Tell us how do you handle those days? Because there has been some conversations about how we kind of engage these holidays, and so I just think for our listeners and especially the veterans, it's just important for you to kind of share what do these days mean to you in the positive and negative sense as someone dealing with PTSD?

Travis Hearne: Yeah, no, that's a huge one. I mean, we just had our military and our church does a really good job with celebrating Memorial Day, Veterans Day. They do a really good job, but for me personally, since these days changed significantly in 2010 when I came home and then again in 2011 when we started losing more and more military members to suicide after Afghanistan. And so those days in the last 12 years have really changed for me. So it comes to a point, for me, how I prepare for Memorial Day specifically is, it's not a day. This is something that I'm thinking about year round. So to be able to continue to stay in the word and continue to stay on this path, and I go off of it all the time, this is not a straight path. It's got tangents and bumpy roads that I go off on all the time. But to be able to prepare for those specific days, it's a day on the calendar that reminds you of, it forces you to remember these things.
For me, I'm remembering them year round, but this is a day that like, okay, now, now you're supposed to really remember. So two parts to that. If you're walking with somebody who has lost, who's celebrating Memorial Day by remembering someone they may have lost, understand this isn't a day long process. This is pretty continuous. And the preparation up to that day, for me, it looks like a lot of grounding, a lot of techniques that I've used through traditional counseling. They're very, some of the tools that you get in traditional counseling, they're amazing. Bilateral stimulation, different things that you can, different tools in your toolbox that you can use to help you walk through trauma and walk through triggers, use those tools and then just be in the word if you feel for...
What's helped me specifically, if I feel like I am going off on one of those bumpy roads, one of those off ramps and it's just like, okay, where am I going? Why am I going there? It's self-reflection and to pull myself back into where I need to be to be able to focus on my wife, my kids, to be able to be the parent, husband, professional, whatever I need to be for other people, and for myself, not just for other people, and for myself, dig into the scripture. I read my life verse probably 15 times a day, or it just goes through my head 15 times a day just to tether me back to that. So when we lead up to those days, the Veterans Day, the Memorial Day specifically, for me, it's helpful to celebrate those who I've lost and remember them well.
I told a story of, for Memorial Day weekend at church, I told a story about Jacob Leicht, who was one of the guys that we lost in Afghanistan. The first time I met Jacob was in 2008 when I first got to my unit and we had this round robin, it was like 1200 Marines out on a beach and it was called the Highlander Games, and it was a series of events like a really rugged Olympics where the first event was 40 of us got on the beach and we had a Jiu-Jitsu match, a grappling match. And I line up against Corporal Jacob Leicht who was probably 150 pounds soaking wet. I'm probably 210 at that point. I'm like, this is done. There's no way this guy's going to get anywhere past me. And the way it worked is if you got tapped out, you'd have to get to the side, you were done. And then if you tapped another person out, you'd go onto the next person. So it's like this big royal rumble of people tapping out. And I'm looking at Jake. I'm like, dude, I got this.
So I come to like five seconds later, Jake has tapped me out. He's choked me out and he's already onto the next person, going from person to person to person. I'm like, what just happened? And they picked me up and they put me to the sideline to watch. And I watched Jake go from person to person to person to person just doing whatever he wants to do with it. He was manhandling them, literally. And I'm like, man, who is this guy? So I start to get to know him a little bit better and we become friends. And so I find out that before I got to the battalion a few months before that he had been shot in Iraq, he'd been injured in Iraq. So Purple Heart recipient, came home, fought like crazy to be able to get back onto the next deployment to Iraq, which we were getting ready to go on, made it through that deployment. And then Afghanistan, we're a month into Afghanistan, Jake steps on an ID and he's killed instantly.
So this man with a Purple Heart fought like crazy to get back to Iraq and then back to Afghanistan. Telling stories like that, and I know this is a very long answer to your question, but telling stories like that to remember some of the great times that I've had with some of these people, some of these heroes, it helps me, one, I remember Memorial Day in a good space in my head. It's a good memory. I have good memories. And that's what I think about on Memorial Day. So stories like that that are top of mind and for me are what I really lean on, and then leaning into the gospel and leaning into the Bible is what really helps me get through it, so...

Peter Englert: I really appreciate you modeling that and then for our listeners, my wife's actually certified in EMDR, so that's Eye Movement Reprocessing, or Deprocessing and Reprocessing. I butchered it, but anyways, just for our listeners, but I want to kind of go to a clinical question and our time is just going so fast. This is a great interview, and I just appreciate your authenticity, but I don't want you to speak for other people, but I'd love for your personal observations. What's the difference and similarities between veteran PTSD and civilian PTSD? Have you thought about that? Help our listeners kind of understand that to this kind of big complex term of the differences and similarities that you see.

Travis Hearne: Yeah. That's a question, and that is a question. Again, I will go back to just leaning, like you said, on my experiences and the way I think of it. I am in no way clinical anything. But what I see is just, and some of the stuff that I've read is trauma, like I said before, trauma impacts someone differently, impacts everybody differently. It's very individual. Somebody who experienced some of the things in Iraq and Afghanistan, if the same person were experiencing some of the same things in Iraq and Afghanistan, they may not have had the trauma response I had just based on their history, the way that they're wired. So when we think of civilian PTSD and military PTSD, I think it's just, to me, trauma is trauma is trauma. It's the body's way that we react to that trauma. And for military folks, it may be visually different, physically different.
As far as what initiates the trauma, it's gunshots, its explosions, it's seeing things that you may not have wanted to see, it's losing friends. That's the way it looks. To me, and I'm just speaking for me, it's a violent way to experience trauma. And a lot of trauma is violent, it is experienced in violent ways. We have car accidents. We have any number of things that could initiate trauma in just me walking down the street here. We have a loss of loved ones. On the civilian side, I lost my mom a couple years ago and just seeing, being there at the end and experiencing that kind of trauma as well. So I can kind of feel, I feel both of them. And to me, the military trauma was a lot more immediate and it's just, I think it's more the community that you surround yourself with which is the real difference.
In the military community, my experience was we have to get ready for this. We can't really dwell on this, we have to go. Civilian and seems more in the civilian world, one, it's still more acceptable. The stigma's not necessarily there as much. And there is a broad understanding and research of how to treat and how to help people walking through different trauma that I believe the civilian world promotes more than the military world would. And again, this is just my experience. And I think that, like I said, cognitively and the way the brain works, I read a great book called The Body Remembers, and it's just how the body deals with trauma, how the neurological pathways get formed and... Great, great book. But it's just, it's people experiencing trauma in different ways. So if there is a difference, I would say it's in the way that the communities and the cultures handle it rather than the trauma itself.

Aaron Mercer: So with, I think, focusing more on the military community again here, as we are approaching Independence Day, and we have had Memorial Day recently, but in those holidays, holidays like that, times, like you said, when we're forced to think about especially Memorial Day. I know Independence Day's much more celebratory, which is great, we should be celebrating our country and we should be celebrating, certainly having fun in that place and whatnot, but in the parades and in whatever we might be doing, fireworks displays or sporting events, and you see soldiers who are asked to stand up and we applaud for them and whatnot.
What would you say, what's a good way to really appreciate I think maybe just military personnel and military families in general, but also, what would you say about being sensitive to those who are going maybe through a hard time and maybe there are triggers in some of those situations, what's a way that we, as people who want to be encouraging our friends in the military or our family members in the military, how can we show them that we care, that we love them, that we appreciate them in a good and sensitive and a truly celebratory way, but that is also sensitive to what they may have gone through?

Travis Hearne: Yeah. That is amazing. That's a great question. So no matter how many years go by, 4th of July, no matter how far along I get on this journey of healing, when 4th of July happens, it's just the sound, the tangible sound of fireworks, it's triggering to a lot of vets. It just is. No matter what happens, it's just that initial... When my son pops a balloon in the other room, I have the same reaction. So it's, and so one, just be aware. One of the best things in the world, my neighbors, I have great neighbors. So whenever 4th of July rolls around, they come and knock on the door and they'll be like, Hey, our kids are about to set off a bunch of fireworks. Are you okay with that? And so them being just kind enough and aware enough, because I have the license plate, I have the Marine Corps flag up, I'm proud. I love this country, I love the military. I'm still, my bones, I mean, you see my background. I don't like to hide it very well.

Aaron Mercer: Yeah. I love your background.

Travis Hearne: So, when... Yeah. Yeah. So when 4th of July happens and people are aware of that, just the ask, just the, Hey, I see you, I mean, it goes down to the very core needs of a human being. You need to be felt, or you need to be seen, heard, seen and heard. Those are two foundational aspects of being a human. If you felt seen and heard, that's great. So if we're talking with people and military members around this holiday on 4th of July, Memorial Day, it's just allowing them to be seen and heard and acknowledged, like, Hey, I know you, I know you're going through, I see that you're a veteran, we're about to do this, how about, is this okay? Or simple check-ins, like, Hey, how are you doing? I know, 4th of July, it's... everybody's celebrating and we're having a great time. How are you feeling about this? You fought for this country. Like with some of my buddies, you fought for this country, this is a holiday that's like, man, this is great, but how does that feel to you?
So, and like I said, this journey is individual. Everybody is different. One person may say, I'm fine. 4th of July is great. Let's get the grill going and let's do this, and another person's like, I can't, I have to hide in my basement because of what's going on. But you don't know that unless you ask. So advice would be to ask the questions, make sure and be brave enough to do it. I mean, it's something that takes a little bit of courage to walk up to somebody, if it's a neighbor, if it's a friend, if it's a stranger and just say, Hey, if it's someone at church, how are you doing today? I know you're... I see you raised your hand for Veterans Day and for Memorial Day. Just be aware, ask the right questions and just help them to feel seen and heard.

Peter Englert: You know what's so powerful about what you said is you were specific to veterans, but if my wife was here or any other counselors, they'd say the same thing to someone who lost a parent, to someone who has been through trauma. Everything that you're saying is great advice to people that haven't gone through it, which is... We have a family at our church that they lost a daughter, and you ask people in grief and you say, would you like me to ask about your daughter? And it's been years now. And we just ask and they appreciate that. And there's some people that'll tell you you can ask once, but I don't want to be asked again. And I think all of this goes to the point of, I think the book you mentioned was The Body Keeps the Score or something like that, which is pretty pivotal work. Everybody handles it differently. So the more that you can be aware and individualize it, the better you're going to connect with people and support and love them in a way that God has called you to.

Travis Hearne: Yeah, absolutely. It is. It's about being individual, it's about asking the hard questions and it's about just showing the kindness and love that Jesus showed us. Jesus wants us to be fully healed. He wants us to walk in his glory and he wants us to help others along the way. I believe that to my bones and I truly believe that these are opportunities, the 4th of Julys, the Memorial Days, these are opportunities to be able to talk to people about these hard subjects. And it is an opportunity to show the love of Jesus to everybody, whether they've experienced trauma or not, a military veteran or someone who's gone through something hard is going to appreciate being seen and heard.
So that is the crux of this. If you're walking through some... Just being there for somebody, asking the right questions, being open to, this is not going to sound very Marine of me, but open to a hug, open to just a, Hey man, I love you, just know that I'm praying for you, just know that I see you, just know that I hear you. And those things mean the world to me specifically. When someone comes up to me, if I get prayed for me, I got goosebumps right now. Just somebody comes up and prays for me or says, Hey, man, I'm thinking about you, that less than a second sentence is huge for somebody like me. So just to keep that in mind as we walk through just life, not just the holidays, not just the Memorial Days or specific events that have happened, anniversaries, just be aware and just be kind and brave enough to ask the right questions.

Peter Englert: Travis, this time went too fast. We're going to have you on again. So thank you, Becky Harling. So yeah, we close the episode with the same question. So the good news is that Aaron and I are going to answer that question first and then you get to pick up whatever mess we leave. Does that sound good?

Travis Hearne: Perfect.

Peter Englert: So what does Jesus have to say about our need for Him during the PTSD journey? Aaron, I'll give you, you get to choose.

Aaron Mercer: Sure. I'll go first if you want me to. Yeah. Well, I think it's good actually, because I can say something and then you're Pastor Peter, you can clean that part up. So no, I think, I'm just really thankful we're having this conversation. I think it's an important conversation. I know we started off saying that and I really, really believe that. I think those who are hurting are close to Jesus' heart, like we said, across the board. I think there are definitely some unique experiences that a lot of people in the military have and particularly in the last couple decades and just, I appreciate that. And I just, I think it's really, I think Jesus wants to make sure that people do get healed and I think He wants that, fully healed and for families of people who have gone through hard times to be fully healed too.
And I'm just, I think that's a good thing for us to be as Christians, as churches, even just friends who are with other people who may or may not have gone through hard things. We don't know unless we get to know them, like you said, seeing and hearing. So I think that Jesus wants us to just connect with people and to try to offer that healing that, or at least that path for healing. So yeah, I think this is really important. And so, and again, just thank you, Travis, and thank you, too, for all your colleagues who stood out there for us and continue to.

Travis Hearne: Thank you.

Peter Englert: Mm. I appreciate that Aaron. So I pulled up, just as I listened to you, I thought about what Jesus said, because you talked about Isaiah being a kind of, that's one of your verses and in Luke 4, Jesus quotes Isaiah and He says, "The spirit of the Lord has come upon me because He's anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight to the blind and to set the oppressed free and to proclaim the year of the Lord." And the interesting thing about Jesus saying that was some of that was becoming true but not all of that was true. And so we call that in theology the now but not yet.
And what's beautiful about your story, Travis, what's beautiful about probably some of our listeners story is there is a time for complete healing on the other side of eternity, of when we're with Jesus, but we experience some of that right now. And I actually think it's good news that we can acknowledge that life is really messy and we still live with triggers and trauma, but there is the hope of healing and I think that your story just really lives out what Jesus meant to do in this passage and what He's meaning to do now.

Travis Hearne: Man, thank you so much. You stole my, I literally have Luke 4 pulled up right here. So...

Peter Englert: That's awesome.

Travis Hearne: But that's a God thing right there. But I just, I think, gentlemen, what you guys are doing with this podcast and being able to tackle some really hard conversations in this way and opening this door for this Why God, I mean, if I had a nickel for every time I had a question that started with why, like, why God is this going on, why God is this, throughout that healing process, it's such important work and it's such an important door to open for people. And I think Jesus is giving us those answers through us, if that makes sense. For this PTSD journey, God wants to use us to help His people. He wants to walk along with us. He wants to see, He wants people to know they're seen, that they're heard and that they're valued. I forgot that third part of that is valued and that's a big part of that. Jesus values every hair on our head, He made, He wants us to be completely healed. He wants us to help heal others. He sent us out here to do that.
And if there is any reason to be put through trauma, in my opinion, and I do want a caveat that this is, trauma can be devastating and paralyzing. This is not an overnight process. This is not something that you can just flip a switch and be like, oh, I'm better. I can use this to help other people. No, I believe it's going to be, it's a lifelong process that never has an end and it's, but I believe that God allows certain things to happen so that we can use them to better the kingdom, that we can use this trauma, we can use what we've been through, our experiences in life, just as He did. The whole gospel's a story about Jesus' life and it helps us to walk in that way and to learn. So in that same vein, I believe Jesus wants us to use these experiences that are traumatizing and devastating and painful to be able to help someone else come closer to God. And that's what I believe Jesus wants in this entire process.

Peter Englert: Hmm. Man, Travis, what a great way to close. If people want to find you, where's the best way for them to follow and just see some of the work that you're doing?

Travis Hearne: Yeah, you can... I would say you can follow me on Facebook, Travis Hearne or Dr. Travis Hearne. Also on LinkedIn. I do a lot of stuff over there on LinkedIn. We do a lot of different leadership podcasts, leadership stuff. And so over on LinkedIn, it's just Dr. Travis Hearne. So it's, you can look me up and my website's www.titaniumleadershipconsulting.com. It's a mouthful. But what I do there is I try to help walk with people and I walk with executives, the secular community and helping them to lead more like Jesus. I have a book coming out. It's called Hybrid. It's a leader's guide to successfully leading remote and hybrid teams and while it's a secular book, I wrote it through the lens of the gospel and how God would want people to lead hybrid and remote teams. So it's about individual consideration, it's about knowing your people, it's about really understanding your individuals like God would. So shameless plug, I apologize for that, but you can find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on Facebook, anywhere you want.

Peter Englert: No, no, no. That's what this portion's for. And when the book comes out, we'll just have you back on and talk about hybrid teams. Does that sound good?

Travis Hearne: I'd love it.

Peter Englert: Done. Done. Well, Travis.

Travis Hearne: Yeah.

Peter Englert: Thanks. Thank you so much for your service and being on the podcast. Of course, you can find us at whygodwhypodcast.com. Click the subscribe button and you'll get an email from us. We hope that you have a wonderful week and we hope that you have a meaningful July 4th celebration. Thank you.