Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The secret sauce to your sales success? It’s what happens before the sale. It’s the planning, the strategy, the leadership. And it’s more than demo automation. It’s the thoughtful work that connects people, processes, and performance. If you want strong revenue, high retention, and shorter sales cycles, the pre-work—centered around the human—still makes the dream work. But you already know that.
The Unexpected Lever is your partner in growing revenue by doing what great sales leaders do best. Combining vision with execution. Brought to you by Vivun, this show highlights the people and peers behind the brands who understand what it takes to build and lead high-performing sales teams. You’re not just preparing for the sale—you’re unlocking potential.
Join us as we share stories of sales leaders who make a difference, their challenges, their wins, and the human connections that drive results, one solution at a time.
Jarod Greene [00:00:00]:
Hello. Hello. Welcome to V5, where we spend five minutes or a little bit more taking on some of the hottest topics and all the B2B SaaS, B2B sales, all points in between. It's gonna be a fun one. This is. In terms of spice, I don't know the take, but I do know Michelle. And so in terms of spice, I think the Scoville units are going to be up on this one. We got Michelle Afshar, the Head of Enablement at Darktrace. How you doing, Michelle?
Michelle Afshar [00:00:26]:
I'm so good. I'm so ready. I came with the spice, so thank you so much for having me here today.
Jarod Greene [00:00:32]:
Thanks for being here. Appreciate it. All right, so again, we don't. I don't know what it is. I just. I know you. When we booked this, you said, hey, I'm gonna bring it. I got that, so let us know. What is. What is your hot take?
Michelle Afshar [00:00:43]:
My hot take is that the future successful sellers are really gonna be SEs. And if everyone can be more like an SE you will see more revenue. You're going to see more of them at Presidents Club. You're going to see more technical sales close. But I think, you know, it's really hard to go say, like, sales is dead, because I don't think. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is you're going to see really successful SEs, and that model is changing where you need to be a little bit more technical.
Jarod Greene [00:01:13]:
What does it mean to be more like an SE? Because again, like, I. I jumped into this SE world. I've been working with them for years. And whether it's a sales engineer, solution consultant, when you say be more like an SE, what do you mean.
Michelle Afshar [00:01:25]:
Primarily and kind of how the world is set up is that you have somebody who's going to go be a hunter and bring you a lead, right? Then you have a seller. The seller is the. Let's call them a quarterback. They're the happy face. They know the product, they know who to bring in to close a deal. And then an SE comes in. That's your technical expert. They are doing the trials, they're doing the POVs.
Michelle Afshar [00:01:46]:
They really understand the technology, they understand the value, and they're really the ones closing the deals. Like, if we look at a team selling structure, right? And then you pass it off to the CSMs, and they keep the relationship going. But the heart of value in a product and positioning in a product sits between the handoff between a seller and an SE. So what I'm saying is like, is there room in the world where the SE is Maybe we prep them more, they have more selling skills, they really master the technical sale. Do you really need that handoff or should everybody become really technical and understand the value of the product you're selling? That's what I mean by being an SE. You know how it can change your customer's life. And I don't know if every seller truly understands that and can position it in that way.
Jarod Greene [00:02:36]:
We had this conversation just a few clicks ago. That was one of the predictions we made, is that more, more folks can go from SE to AE than AE to SE. One of my really good friends in the world made that transition. He's out here killing it. He was one of the best SEs I've ever worked with. He's now carrying a bag as an AE loving life and totally makes a difference. Where do you think organizations get stuck on this because you and I talk about it, it sounds so easy when the rubber meets the road. What are the difficulties in making AEs more SE-like?
Michelle Afshar [00:03:07]:
So another hot take. I think companies just don't actually understand the problem. And the problem is that buying and selling has changed dramatically and we are all behind. I don't care if you use AI, I don't care if you think you're modern, you're behind. There's not one company who is doing it right. I think they don't understand how much has changed for their buyer. Like I myself, if I want to go buy something and I want a tool, I've already done the research, I already know what I want. I need you to prove to me that I should buy this because of what I know.
Michelle Afshar [00:03:38]:
You need to validate it. That is primarily been an SE's job, right? Is validating the need, validating the value of a product. So most companies are just like, go sell more, put a new head in, get a new territory, add more sellers, more conversations will lead to more deals, will lead to more revenue. But if you really take a step back and you say buying has changed, how people come to us, how they want to be sold to has changed, then you can maybe put some structure around what your teams look like, what those profiles look like, who's doing what in your sales process.
Jarod Greene [00:04:12]:
Makes all the sense in the world to me. Again, for those obvious reasons, we see ratios, kind of rule of thumb have always been, hey, for every four AEs we need one SE. And so like every time we're kind of, we're in a conversation and we're in a cycle that seems to be the the mantra. What we find though, and you notice because you live by it too. The thinner that ratio is, the more successful that company somehow is like product's incredibly technical. If we can get more pairing of AE and SE to be more, I don't know, 2 to 1, things tend to move a little faster. You struck me on something we talked about, the modern buyer. And being a buyer, you're right.
Jarod Greene [00:04:49]:
You go to a website, you've done all the research, now you just need somebody to show you how. What is the fastest way to borrow from the kids. What would give you the ick in a buyer situation? You've already made up your mind, right? You've already figured out, hey, I'm pretty close to doing this thing. I'm leaning towards it. What can a company do to make you think otherwise and how should they avoid that moving forward?
Michelle Afshar [00:05:10]:
So all of my CROs, I'm thinking about the last three ones. If you, you hear this, I am sorry but like sales process and sales methodology is the biggest ick actually in a sales process. You asking me questions because you want to fill out salesforce, you don't want to understand what I need. I already came to you, I know what I want. If you can't take that time to show me you are confident, you're an expert, you know exactly what I'm talking about. I got the ick. So I think the over engineering and we kind of overcorrected on process for our sellers and we put them in a very limited role. You need to do this job to help us forecast.
Michelle Afshar [00:05:52]:
So we're going to then shift the responsibility which is proving value to an SE and they can do the demo too. So I think you just kind of move the problem to a different person but you haven't designed the roles then to really support that. So to me it just becomes really like blended lanes of where people need to excel within their roles. If you're selling in a POD or you're selling in a team setup, don't ask me the questions that I don't care about. Like hear me out. And not all buyers do that, right? So if your buyer has not done the research, you do need to present all the things that they need to know. But if someone is coming to you and they know what they want, the last thing you want to do is go ask them some like fields that you got to fill out for the company.
Jarod Greene [00:06:37]:
Question for you as an enablement leader, where do you stand on this one? Who enables the SEs? Because I've heard camps that say, well, enablement does because it's kind of top down and it's the message, it's value prop, it's the skills, the whole bit. I've seen the other one that says, hey, our role is a little more nuanced. We kind of enable ourselves seeing one that says, well, we get the enablement for product. So like, where do you sit on this? You've been a great enablement leader for a long time. Where do you sit on who enables SEs?
Michelle Afshar [00:07:02]:
So this is actually my philosophy for every role that I run enablement for and I've been really fortunate at really big companies to do it for go-to-market teams. So BDRs, AEs, technical teams, support teams, you name it, partner teams, customers. I've been able to do it for everybody and my model is more of a service model. And I think this works really well for all teams, especially for the technical teams. Enablement can be a driver of learning. They can handle the content, they can get what you need and make this infrastructure around you where you are supported, you're knowledgeable, you have awareness, like you have what you need to do your job. Am I the technical expert? No. Do I know what I need to know about the.
Michelle Afshar [00:07:46]:
No, absolutely not. But I'm going to go get the people, put it in a structure that a technical an SE can learn and understand, give them the resources that they need and then, I think, you know, that applies to all the different roles as well. Where I think people get hung up is they send some person who's not very technically versed to go do an enablement Session for the SEs. They get chewed up and you get run out of that room and then you have organizations who then say, we'll train ourselves. I have been lucky at both at Zoom, Palo Alto Networks at darktrace. Today I make it a point to make friends with the technical teams because if they like what we're doing, I know my team is doing it right. They are the hardest teams to get any kind of. Hey, that was great.
Michelle Afshar [00:08:34]:
I really like that. I like what you're doing, right? Like they will hold that feedback until it's absolutely accurate. So I think my take is just really being a service type of group, getting everything that they need and bringing it to them.
Jarod Greene [00:08:47]:
Yeah, asking the infrastructure. We're talking to a former colleague, she's working on enablement, similar philosophy. Learned a lot from her, learn a lot from you in that regard. And yeah, if you can be the orchestrator that brings the pieces together. It's less about who knows who's got the definitive answer and who can teach it and more around. Can you orchestrate, put these pieces together, put the right people, right place, right time so that everybody's happy? I've actually been on those calls where the poor enablement person got ran off.
Michelle Afshar [00:09:15]:
I have been that girl. I have known I wasn't the right person. I have walked through that trainer deck. I have wholeheartedly believed in the words that were coming out of my mouth and I walked out of there with my tail between my legs, right? Because a technical team knows when you don't know enough. So for me, you gotta send the right person in that room. It is a mix of product. It is a mix of product marketing sometimes. It's a mix of bringing in customers. But the worst thing you can do is send someone who shouldn't deliver that message to a team of extremely capable people.
Jarod Greene [00:09:50]:
Being a skeptical buyer means you're gonna throw darts at the SE2, right? They know how to play the game of like you're asking me a question not because you seek an answer, but because you maybe want to make us look back or because you maybe have an agenda or because maybe we're buying a solution that is replacing the thing you built. And this is weird for you. So it's sort of those dynamics that I know the best SEs in the world can suss out in ways that I don't think any other role in go-to-market can. What advice would you give people that they're structuring their teams today? You said they're not doing enough of understanding the nuance at all. What advice would you give them today about this kind of SC, AE, wine, cheese pairing or the full blown blend to where the SE. What advice would you give a CRO or head of sales thinking about staff and their team in a way that wants to move sales cycles the way we talked about?
Michelle Afshar [00:10:38]:
I live this advice everywhere I go and it is to create really, really good SEs who can master a sales process. And then it's to create a foundation for my sellers who want to get further education and become technical. Not everybody does, right? So if you can make those 201s, those certifications available to sellers, you're going to see the ones that want to actually go and become more technical. You're going to be able to support them in a different way. So I think it's twofold. It's create an opportunity for your sellers to get more knowledge and become technical and to really master the conversation, the value that they can bring to customers and prospects.
Michelle Afshar [00:11:23]:
And then it's go train your SEs on other stuff outside of product. It is very rare. And a lot of companies do not invest in their SEs. They're like, hey, they're smart, they're capable. They know the technology, they know this person, they know that. And then they don't go bring in the outside training. They don't bring in the outside skills. They just say, this is a group, they're smart enough, like, we're going to leave them where they're at.
Michelle Afshar [00:11:46]:
And I think that does a disservice to the team. So bringing in skill training for that group can go a really, really long way.
Jarod Greene [00:11:55]:
Been in this space for a long time, but I. I remember distinctly going down a sales methodology route. They're not inexpensive. I don't know if it was cost cutting or just, like, optimism. I don't know what it was, but I remember being in the class and looking around, you know, the zoom and noticing, like, the SEs weren't there. We're going over the whole methodology, right? Like, we were going over the whole thing of, like, this is how you sell. This is how you position value. This is how you probe. This is how you do all these things. And I'm saying to myself, the SEs aren't here. And I think it's exactly what you said. They're a smart crew. They'll figure it out. But in real time, recognize that we weren't making the investment in what they needed to do to kind of balance the handoff. And you could already start to see the seeds of AE sets up XYZ just brings in the SE cold and the SE speak in a different language. We all learn the language of, you know, we all learn French. And that SE comes on and is speaking German through product. And now the buyer's, like, confused.
Michelle Afshar [00:12:52]:
And when you get a group of SEs in a room to train them, they love it. If it's the right training and you have the right expert in that group. I find that the technical teams end up being so grateful because they haven't had those resources brought to them. So it's always like, michelle, this was incredible. I haven't had this in so long. This was so needed. And, you know, as an enablement leader, that's where I find my purpose, right?
Michelle Afshar [00:13:18]:
Is like a team saying, we needed this. You brought us something that really impacts the organization. So I think they're just overlooked because of their Success or just the profile that they bring to most organizations, they are overlooked. Most people who do a really good job, you kind of just get, like, tossed to the side, right? Like, hey, just keep doing you. You're good. But you can't really do that to some of the brightest people within the organization. You got to help them and give them those new skills, especially if you want them to help in the sales process. You cannot have disjointed teams.
Michelle Afshar [00:13:51]:
And it starts with making sure that they have the skills available to them if they want to do it. Some of them are going to be like, no, I don't want to do that, right? Like, okay, then don't do that. But it's available to you.
Jarod Greene [00:14:03]:
I don't know if you watched The Bear on FX, but it's become one of my favorite shows. You might not get the analog. When they go through their transformation, they send two of the cooks to, like, culinary school who have never, like, gone to culinary school, where they just been cooking. They've been cooking sandwiches, they're cooking beef sandwiches in the kitchen. And, like, one embraced it and one really struggled. And that kind of reminds me, like, you're right. Some people are going to latch on and say, I want this skill set. I want to learn how to be more.
Jarod Greene [00:14:28]:
More AE. Like, I want to learn how to handle objections. I want to learn how to negotiate. There's a whole skill set that they want, and others might not want it at all. What I'm hearing you say very clearly is, like, you have to understand your team, and the biggest mistake you can make is not investing in them, leaving them on the side, assuming that they're going to do just fine. They feel like, dare I say, this secret weapon has been underutilized for a long damn time.
Michelle Afshar [00:14:53]:
So it's just such an easy shift. So you want to have better conversations. You want to increase value in your deals. You want to be able to prove that this is, like, validate the product and the need. So you're not just going to train the SEs on selling skills. I'm lucky that I worked with really amazing companies and leaders where, like, you could just say that sentence and they're like, just go do that. But there is times where a sentence that simple that makes sense to so many people is very difficult to digest by the leaders. But if you want to add products to deals and you want to go into a new market, into a new space, a new industry, you spend some money there and you'll see that return tenfold.
Michelle Afshar [00:15:34]:
It's an easy win. Like, if you can get it, go do it. It will really make an impact.
Jarod Greene [00:15:39]:
All right, well, you heard it here first. This is, like, so, so timely and just so well done. So we appreciate you spe some time with us today. Where can folks find you? You talked about LinkedIn, but I know you've always been a vessel of information and resources. You're open to folks reaching out to connect them with you.
Michelle Afshar [00:15:55]:
LinkedIn, golf course. Just let me know. Just, you know, hit me up. Happy to help. Happy to have conversations. Been around. So some of this stuff works, some of it doesn't. And I like making friends, so don't be shy.
Jarod Greene [00:16:09]:
You got a handicap number these day. What are you doing?
Michelle Afshar [00:16:10]:
Like, no, no. I'm just there for the outfits and the vibes, but it's where you can find me.
Jarod Greene [00:16:16]:
So that's where you can find. All right, we got challenge accepted. Anybody who wants the golf smoke, but it's just for vibes in the outfit. Dare I say a drink or two, they know where to get you. Okay, good stuff. Michelle, thank you so much. We appreciate you.
Michelle Afshar [00:16:27]:
Thank you.