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NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
00;00;16;00 - 00;00;30;29
Aaron
Welcome to 2026. Seems like, cloud code had. It's, it's kind of like ChatGPT moment over the weekend. It was kind of surprising that it took so long, but, I think that was, like, the most interesting thing over the past couple days.
00;00;31;02 - 00;00;50;11
Chris
Yeah. Do you think that was a time of year thing? Maybe. You know, some people had, downtime during the holidays and they finally got their hands on it. Do you think it was a people turning the page and getting ready for next year and saying, hey, I should I should figure out this, vibe tuning thing? What do you think triggered all that landslide?
00;00;50;12 - 00;00;58;28
Chris
Because it was definitely, like, full blown. And I really wasn't expecting expecting that. And, you know, kind of a dead period of time.
00;00;59;01 - 00;01;22;15
Aaron
Yeah, I think it maybe was a combination of the three. I mean, I definitely, you know, was poking around some more tooling stuff and whatever, you know, free time I had. So I do think it was probably a good time for people when it's slower to like, play around with something new. I do think it was, Karpathy kind of, wasn't exactly like a flip flop, but I do think he kind of kicked it off when, you know, like a month ago or a couple weeks ago.
00;01;22;15 - 00;01;40;21
Aaron
He was like, I don't think these alarms will be able to get us to AGI. You know, the Huggingface folks have said that, LeCun said that a bunch of other folks have said that. And then, you know, he posted something basically saying like, software development is changing radically. And it kind of seemed like he was taking a couple steps back on his previous comments.
00;01;40;23 - 00;01;57;28
Aaron
And I think that just was like, almost like the shot heard around the world for software developers that they really need to be paying attention to what's going on. The way that software is getting developed is changing radically. And, you know, those that aren't on top of that wave are just going to get crushed by it. I mean, I think that's something here on the pod.
00;01;57;28 - 00;02;30;29
Aaron
We've, we've we spent a quite a bit of time last year talking about it just feels like it kind of hit that inflection point. I also think it is just like open source. 4.5 from Claude is really good. I think, you know, GPT 5.2, is also very good. So it feels like the tools are finally there for kind of what we've been talking quite a bit about, which is, you know, and I hate I actually hate the term vibe coding because I think it's like it's a little bit like like a bad backhanded in, in a sense, but it just feels like, you know, the way software development is going to happen
00;02;30;29 - 00;02;36;03
Aaron
is just going to be all through these AI tools. So that's that's kind of my read. Chris, what do you think?
00;02;36;10 - 00;03;08;03
Chris
No, I think that's a it's a good point. It's I don't know. It's someone who tends to form their own opinions. I do notice when certain gatekeepers allow everyone else to have thoughts because, you know, Karpathy was certainly I think it was a trigger moment that, you know, you rightly pointed out, but we also saw that with Brian Armstrong and Base right now, the base ecosystem, it's it's funny because no one talks about it, but then the big bald guy starts asking what should base theory on the right path here?
00;03;08;03 - 00;03;16;29
Chris
And then, you know, all this stuff comes out of the woodwork. So I do think that, Karpathy, comments there brought it to the forefront.
00;03;17;05 - 00;03;35;05
Aaron
Yeah. And then people, people I think we're piling on after that, you know, like the person that or one of the principal architects and creator of Cloud Code was basically saying, like, I'm only using cloud code to program now, which I think may have surprised, you know, certain software developers. But to me, it makes perfect sense. Like, why be doing that?
00;03;35;06 - 00;03;59;25
Aaron
You know, like, why are you going to be manually writing code when you've got these systems that can do it, you know, much faster? I think on balance, much better. And you can just kind of fly with software development. And I do think a lot of software developers, you know, had their, their noses in the air, you know, their, their heads in the clouds, you know, some combination of the two where they just didn't realize the seismic shift that's happening underneath them.
00;03;59;27 - 00;04;26;13
Chris
Yeah. Well, it's only natural, you know, we we tend to all overvalue our own skills. You know, everyone wants to feel special. And then that that is good in some ways. But, you know, it can also hurt you in other ways. And at a certain point, though, you do have to see the writing on the wall. And I would say, you know, someone who's only started by coding over the summer, you know, the, what, in less than five months.
00;04;26;15 - 00;04;57;21
Chris
It's the skills have shifted dramatically, the capabilities dramatically. And it's pretty clear that, you know, there's no end in sight here. It's better you get on board now. I suppose if otherwise, you're going to, you know, get left behind. What I did think was interesting in, in this whole clod discussion. Right. If we're kind of taking this stuff apart, one was how heavily focused it is on Claude, and Claude is excellent.
00;04;57;21 - 00;05;31;23
Chris
Opus 4.5 is a beast. You know, when that came into cursor for me, I was able to do things that had been previously blocked. You know, especially like in the installation of local models that required, like, huge amount of dependencies. Like, you know, it was it was very clear that it was a step change function. But also I actually use five to a lot more, and especially when I'm doing complicated, multi-level, multilayered stuff in which I need a steady hand at the helm.
00;05;31;26 - 00;06;09;08
Chris
Opus is a little too wild, and, you know, it's more, I say, raw horsepower than planning and reasoning. And so I'm always flipping back and forth between the two because each of them hits a certain point. And I don't know if it's, you know, a matter of like the context engineering, you know, they start to lock in and decay and you got to you got to swap a fresh model and just, just to, you know, sort of reinvigorate your process or like, you're inevitably going to hit a problem like nowadays, I tend if I run into a problem, I tend to give whatever age and I'm working with 3 or 4 goes at it.
00;06;09;08 - 00;06;32;18
Chris
And then you just got to read, read and react and say, okay, is this actually a really thorny problem in which, like, I need this dedicated agent, you know, stepwise work through it because it's going to take, you know, five, five, five commits to get this resolved. Right? It's an iterative problem. Or is it a matter of this?
00;06;32;18 - 00;06;38;13
Chris
This agent is locked in in the wrong direction. And I got to pull pull it out and throw fresh eyes on the problem.
00;06;38;20 - 00;07;03;12
Aaron
Yeah, completely. I mean, I, I think, it definitely feels like OpenAI still has like a bit of a lead on the abstract reasoning, piece. I know, like, I saw some predictions this year that, like, Gemini is going to become kind of the the default model just because of Google's distribution. But I don't know, it feels like still, on the OpenAI side, they're able to get that high level reasoning better than anybody else.
00;07;03;13 - 00;07;22;28
Aaron
I don't know if that lead kind of narrows over time, but, you know, what I tend to do, XRS, is do some initial planning with opus, some double checking with 5.2, and then I just let opus kind of run because it is kind of a workhorse. Like once it once it has like a good plan to kind of, to power through it, which is interesting.
00;07;23;01 - 00;07;40;20
Aaron
I do think the kind of like the shift what software developers are grappling with is a lot like what, you know, folks in the music industry had to grapple with, with the internet. So I just think it's like a really interesting story to kind of follow. You know, it's really the first, you know, significant industry that's going to get impacted by AI.
00;07;40;20 - 00;08;00;16
Aaron
And I think there's a lot of glimmers about how this stuff's going to get rolled out into the rest of the economy. They're just kind of floating around here. And I do think there is like a herd mentality with developers and their core skill set, or what the skill set that is going to be valuable going forward is just changing to much more of a product and, you know, product design, type approach.
00;08;00;16 - 00;08;11;25
Aaron
And I just don't know how many developers are actually good at that as opposed to kind of the mechanical steps of like writing functions and, you know, making sure the, the plumbing and, architecture kind of work.
00;08;11;27 - 00;08;47;02
Chris
Yes. And you saw that in this, this Claude Blazing discourse as well, because I would say it's 75% of the conversation. You know, once you went a step deeper, was around agent Max and and the number of lines of code you can generate and that you have to like the skills that people are emphasizing. As delay got shown on Claude was about bulk production, and it was about the, using skills or agent or all of these things.
00;08;47;02 - 00;09;19;10
Chris
And that to me is not the right mindset. Like it's a game of musical chairs. It ends in no chairs, right? Like it's a it's a, a response to commodification, which makes sense within the rules of commodification, should you want to continue to play the game. I software is now literally a on demand commodity. Ergo, I need to, scale my ability to produce it.
00;09;19;12 - 00;09;45;06
Chris
And so, you know, that's to me like I saw way too much about that. And, you know, almost like first order thinking that doesn't really ask the question, what are you making? How are you evaluating what you're making? Where, where is the time going into the business logic? Who's thinking of these things. Right. Like, yeah. So everyone really was just like, oh my God, we can hit the gas.
00;09;45;06 - 00;10;07;14
Chris
Let's talk about how to hit the gas. And no one was really having the conversation. You're driving around city streets. Why the heck are you focused on, hitting the gas? You're never going to exceed 30 miles an hour. And so I'm also playing into my my own mindset and my own bias here because I do product design and system architecture.
00;10;07;14 - 00;10;39;29
Chris
Right. Like that's that's what I like professionally. That's why I was put on Earth is to build like complicated systems and products. And so I always approach this, you know, from my own thinking, obviously. But look, if every single person agent matches this shit out of all these skills and all of this, that doesn't really end anywhere. Like your gap is going to be on the, the ideation, the product side, the, the go to market, the operator side.
00;10;40;02 - 00;11;14;27
Chris
And you saw a very little conversation about that. And so, you know, it's like it's rare but not, oh, I will just be rare but not uncommon. I realize I'm just tripping all over my words. But let's put it this way. Let's say there's ten developers, you know, standing in a room. I would hazard a guess to say that, like only two, maybe three of them actually have enough generalist skills to do product design and architecture, or even the interest.
00;11;14;27 - 00;11;53;15
Chris
Right? That's the that's the other part of this is to assume everyone wants to take on those roles. You know, that's that's a fallacy. A lot of people are very into, you know, mastery of the tools, the the actual act of constructing software, the act of doing anything. Right. We can we can turn this over to, like, making tables or writing books or, you know, a lot of people very into the act of production and the expression of the craft, versus, you know, primarily being concerned with like, the end result, the thing like, you know, holding the totality of something.
00;11;53;15 - 00;12;23;00
Chris
And so that's another part of this, to consider, right? Yeah. At the end of the day, I, I would say, right, like everyone, like we grew up in this, you know, the myth of the founder era, right? Like, we we worked in the internet for over the last. Yeah, 25 years or so, and we lionized, you know, your Jack Dorsey's, your Mark Zuckerberg's, your Elon, etc., and people considered them as developers, right?
00;12;23;05 - 00;12;47;28
Chris
I always, like, take a different point of view and say, no, those people were generalists who are probably, like, exceptionally good at a very wide range of things. They just happened to like their primary role at the time was a programmer because that was the bottleneck. That was the thing they had actually had to, like, get their hands on and do to achieve what they wanted.
00;12;48;00 - 00;12;57;21
Chris
Had Mark Zuckerberg came of age in the 2030s, right. Like I don't think anyone would consider him a dev. They were just consider him a really skilled operator and a generalist.
00;12;57;23 - 00;13;23;00
Aaron
I think. I think that's a great point. Maybe one way to synthesize that down or moving from like an era of software building to software creating. And there's a big difference between being a creator and just being a builder. And I don't I think it's a different skill set. I think that there's been kind of like a wrong move, from organizations, from companies that they're trying to, you know, hire for software engineers.
00;13;23;00 - 00;13;48;28
Aaron
Still when, and they're assuming that you're gonna, you know, the best software engineers are going to be kind of more middle of the career, end of their career, when in reality, you're looking for creators and probably younger developers are more internet native. They understand just kind of intuitively how applications should work. You know, they've kind of lived and breathed it, and they're probably going to be a stronger class of creator.
00;13;49;00 - 00;14;15;01
Aaron
Like just off the bat, you know, my mind, it's a little bit like the boomers were with television, right? Like they brought in the golden age of television because they were a Washington as kids. And I think that this generation, that's coming up, like the late millennial to to Zoomer, like they've lived completely awash in the internet, they know what it looks like, and they're going to reimagine kind of the next one and fall more into like this creator class instead of like, like a builder class.
00;14;15;03 - 00;14;33;22
Aaron
And so I just don't think you're going to need software building as much. You need software architecture and creation. I personally think the architecture pieces next year will also get kind of automated away by AI, but it doesn't matter, right? Like it's really like, what are you trying to build? What are you or really what are you trying to create.
00;14;33;25 - 00;14;45;27
Aaron
Much more so than what you're trying to build at this point. Is it something that people like want? Is it something you know that that does do all these other like subtle things that, that, that are required to bring something to the masses to market?
00;14;45;28 - 00;14;48;28
Chris
Now I'm feeling threatened.
00;14;49;00 - 00;14;50;14
Aaron
Are you why?
00;14;50;16 - 00;15;30;10
Chris
Okay. So to me, when I was an operator and, you know, I was running product, but also, you know, one of the partners running the business I really like loved operating from a position of mastery over my, my system and my business and like, how it's architected, how all the pieces were put together. Because that understanding was critical in, in in deciding, like levels of effort, how to make that, how to, create force multipliers within your own system.
00;15;30;10 - 00;15;56;10
Chris
And like, I needed to like, intricately understand, like the guts of the thing and what it was good at, what was bad at how it was. Oh, we want it. We want to test out this strategy. Is that a big lift or not? And I guess I'm in like saying all this. I'm realizing I was also like thinking from a position of constraint.
00;15;56;13 - 00;16;24;12
Chris
Right. And that that constraint doesn't exist anymore where I was trying to maximize, I guess, our unit of units of labor in the org, and perhaps that doesn't matter anymore. But I don't know. I just like really like I kind of sometimes think about it as like I'm a game warden walking around a forest. I get to walk through the forest every day to really know what what's in there, how it behaves, how it reacts.
00;16;24;19 - 00;16;35;20
Chris
And if you start abstracting your architecture and your system away, I guess that's where I would start to feel like the loss and the replacement in AI.
00;16;35;22 - 00;17;05;25
Aaron
Well, I think you can still learn the architecture, but I think it's the act of architecting. You know, I think that there's a there's a lot of like false assumptions that software developers as an industry are operating from, which is one software developers, on balance, are good at architecture. I'd say that most are horrible at it. And so the folks that are going to be good at it, they're rare in numbers and that most people will get a level up in terms of just, you know, basic principles of software development using these AI tools.
00;17;05;27 - 00;17;28;05
Aaron
I think you need as somebody steering these systems to understand that deeply. So I wouldn't worry too much about that, Chris. But just this notion that your average software developer is good at architecture is it just feels false to me. And I think that a lot of them are now hanging their hats on, like, that's what they're going to be doing is still maintaining, you know, their hand on like the the top level architecture of some of these systems.
00;17;28;08 - 00;17;46;28
Aaron
And I do think that they're probably at massive scale. There's probably some small group of people that are actually good at those, those skills, and have the experience to deal with these like massively scaled complicated systems. But they're pretty few in number, and there's not that many services that have hit that kind of scale to require that.
00;17;46;28 - 00;18;09;16
Aaron
And so I should kind of replace that function as well. You know, that being said, I'm sure you want to understand how the machine works would be a lot of work put into understanding how that machine works, especially if it gets abstracted to a certain degree. But ultimately, I think it's just about the product, right? Like whether or not you can build and deliver a delightful product, to me, it's a little bit more like what consumer goods have have felt like.
00;18;09;16 - 00;18;18;25
Aaron
I just think the internet is kind of entering into like its consumer goods phase instead of it's like expertise phase, like across the board. But that's kind of my read.
00;18;18;28 - 00;18;41;18
Chris
To, let's close this card clod thing out for a segue here. I would the last thing I want to talk about, because I think it does reflect these different forms of thinking, is, I would say, the people I know and have the most trust in what they're building is live coders. They're all raw dogging it, pretty much.
00;18;41;21 - 00;19;04;28
Chris
It's them, a chat screen and a git repo. And, you know, like they're not using seals, they're not using agents, they're not using all these bells and whistles. Like they literally just talk to the AI. The AI writes the code and that's it. You have to be one of those people. A few other people I know like that.
00;19;04;28 - 00;19;06;06
Chris
Some definitely tend to do it.
00;19;06;06 - 00;19;27;02
Aaron
I'm definitely raw dogging it. Yeah, I completely I think that that just, you know, this is like this software developer fetishization of tools like, it just feels like superfluous at different points. Like, I definitely have prompts that were kind of like subroutines that I personally implement, you know, check for things that would be considered important for code quality.
00;19;27;02 - 00;19;45;13
Aaron
Right? Like, my files are tight. Like, they're not too big. You know, it's not spaghetti code because I put in the effort to make sure that that's not the case. Like the code base is consistent, right? Like all these different things, you know, me and other folks are working with, like, we're mindful about that, but I don't think I need like a skill to do that, at least at this point.
00;19;45;15 - 00;20;06;08
Aaron
That being said, like I, I did, you know, I'm going to play around a bit more with cloud code just to make sure I'm not missing something. But that's kind of my initial read. It just kind of like this. The laziness of software developers plus like this fed is fetishization of tools that my sense is like in a year we're not going to care that much about skills anymore.
00;20;06;10 - 00;20;31;03
Chris
Yeah. So you hear you hear about skills enough. And then you go look it up and it's oh, it's a markdown doc that points to code snippets. And you're like, That's literally just what I do when I'm raw dogging. It is, you know, we write a markdown spec right? And then I just tell the machine to look at the spec whenever it's lost or it's not doing what I want.
00;20;31;06 - 00;20;52;15
Chris
And the machine then knows to load that the spec references code and it goes looks it up. And so I don't understand why we needed this new, I don't know, ontological framing of skills where it's kind of like mirroring first principles was a very trendy term. Yeah. Like first principles is common fucking sense, you know what I mean?
00;20;52;17 - 00;20;54;07
Aaron
Most of the time. Yeah.
00;20;54;10 - 00;21;04;29
Chris
You know, thinking from first principles and it's like, no, you got a fucking brain and you thought critically about something. You came to a common sense solution, like, come on, man, you know, why do you get that? See it up?
00;21;05;02 - 00;21;27;29
Aaron
Because I think, Chris, you're saying the same thing. It's like we're moving into the real creator economy, not like just building stuff. And there was so much effort in building that you really had to be careful about what you created. Well, now you can just kind of create at will. And if you are one of these generalists, it really, I think, will be vindication for a liberal arts education.
00;21;27;29 - 00;21;47;06
Aaron
Like if you're able, you know, to, to kind of, have a lot of skills in a lot of different areas, like this is your time to kind of shine that framing you gave before. It's like, Jack Dorsey or Mark Zuckerberg. I think that or Elon, like they all fall into that category. They can do so much because they have a really broad kind of topology of skills.
00;21;47;09 - 00;22;11;29
Aaron
And I think that those types of folks are going to continue to succeed when specialists that acquired skills are just not going to have the, the same, the same kind of, utility and usefulness. And I think that that's why you're seeing the software developers try to rationalize this into this concept of agency AI, and they're basically trying to say like, well, you, have a lot of agency now, so you should kind of lean into that.
00;22;12;06 - 00;22;26;29
Aaron
But I actually I think it's a little bit off and it's really about creating. Yeah. Like we're moving just from this area of building to creating. And if you're a creator and can create and can think of the whole problem in your mind and then get the machines to do it for you, there should be like a lot of greenfield to explore.
00;22;26;29 - 00;22;27;16
Aaron
There.
00;22;27;18 - 00;22;54;10
Chris
Einstein worked in the patent office when he did his best work. He hung around. He shuffled papers all day. Then when Einstein became hugely famous, he then went got shipped off to Princeton. Obviously a lot happened in between there, like two world wars. And then what did he do? He spent most of his time like staring at a pond in the afternoon.
00;22;54;13 - 00;23;24;23
Chris
I don't know how it is. It takes a really different and unique sort of person to to be comfortable in that, in that weird lifestyle in which, you know, maybe you're, there's this big sort of like periods of, like normality that give you the space for your mind to, to do what it needs to do in these creative pursuits, you know, like, no one really understands any of this.
00;23;24;23 - 00;23;50;01
Chris
And I'm not sure, like, you know, if it's been given, I don't know the level of study or appreciation because it just it's so goes against your the demands of the day or the demands of society or environmental pressure. Right. Like I don't know where I'm going with this, but, I just don't think we're we're fully prepared if that is the, in-demand skill.
00;23;50;03 - 00;24;02;20
Chris
It's a very strange looking skill, and I think it's going to be difficult to, scale mass manufacture, like, turn into a commoditized thing.
00;24;02;22 - 00;24;24;13
Aaron
Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, but I do think that we do have, you know, some systems that train that that's liberal arts, right? Like it's like you're supposed to learn how to think like you're describing before and instead of learning how to do. And I think in part, the failures of the current education system focus much more on doing than the thinking bits.
00;24;24;15 - 00;24;43;10
Aaron
And so hopefully that's like something that gets a mark, too, because you could you could easily learn how to acquire skills when you have things like the internet, things like AI that can can teach it to you in a way that's kind of customized to your brain or your your defaults. So people should be able to like, rapidly pick up skills.
00;24;43;12 - 00;25;12;17
Aaron
But they need to be able to, to think, which is hard as we know. But, you know, I think kind of like, I think we we've been grappling with these things for a long time, you know, in different kind of flavors. And this is just the next permutation of it. But if you are somebody that's like, inclined to do stuff, which not everybody is, if you are or have been trained to kind of like, think, and enjoy that process, not just the mechanical bits of putting something together, then I think, you know, you're in a pretty good, pretty good spot.
00;25;12;19 - 00;25;32;26
Aaron
And I think it's going to be the same thing on the media side. I think it's going to be the same thing for most white collar work. You know, like software developers are an important profession, but they're not, you know, like the alpha predator of white collar professions. And I think by the end of this year, that's what's going to be really interesting when I start gobbling up some of those other kind of, white collar professions.
00;25;33;00 - 00;26;03;08
Chris
Yeah. Well, as we turn, turn the corner where we've turned the corner we're in in 2026, it seems to be this idea that you need to secure your bag now is is the other thing that's coming into the forefront where people are looking at the ability to, on an individual basis, make it or outperform, you know, a larger economy as an existential risk.
00;26;03;08 - 00;26;21;01
Chris
Right now, we're seeing a lot of, you know, sort of thought pieces around this k-shaped economy, income inequality. Then the other part, I guess, that, you know, maybe brought this to the fore is, is California. And, what's the rap out there?
00;26;21;04 - 00;26;23;18
Aaron
Oh, Khanna.
00;26;23;20 - 00;26;25;06
Chris
Yeah. Thank you. The wealth.
00;26;25;06 - 00;26;29;24
Aaron
Tax. Yeah. It seems like California wants to cut against the wealth accumulation.
00;26;29;24 - 00;27;06;21
Chris
And that one is sending off all sorts of alarm bells. And of course, it's, you know, it's the same group of people. It always is. And their points aren't invalid. Right. Like, I would feel threatened isn't the right word, but I don't think that money is going to be used effectively, you know, and so like it's being framed as a a single sided issue when in fact like it requires a bunch of different things to, you know, maybe come to pass before it makes sense.
00;27;06;21 - 00;27;45;19
Chris
Right? Like California is, is a hard place, to do business. I would say that, you know, the bang for the buck in terms of the regulation. California asks for versus what it's delivering back isn't great. You know, I remember we were building out, 40, 40,000 square foot, you know, office and distribution complex in Orange County. And, you know, some of the, you know, the fire code inspections or, you have to have this specific, you know, fire system, and it has to be certified this way.
00;27;45;19 - 00;28;04;13
Chris
And these people need to come through and inspect it. And, you know, it was just like, a little bit like, you know, when people make fun of Europe for, water bottles where the cap doesn't come off or, you know, windows that can only crack open two inches. You know, I think that that's a very valid concern, right?
00;28;04;13 - 00;28;27;10
Chris
Like, I don't really feel that giving more money to the government is an effective use of that capital. And if you had a more responsive or a more in tune government that there might be more willingness, right? Like we're in a very low trust moment. And I think that, some of that low trust, you know, comes from a very valid place, 1,000%.
00;28;27;12 - 00;28;45;26
Aaron
I think it's also like a fairness thing. I mean, if I, if I'm reading what people are saying, which is like, this is like an after this is like, you know, if you're going to raise the tax rate like a priori, like before, the fact, that's fine. But you know, trying to confiscate it after the fact is like a little bit off, which I do think is a bit fair.
00;28;46;03 - 00;29;15;09
Aaron
A bit of a fair point. But it goes back to your point, Chris, even earlier, like this is the government trying to accumulate capital, you know, for the broader population that may not be able to accumulate that capital individually. And maybe that's that's kind of the move that we're seeing. It maybe is why you're seeing folks start to explore, you know, more communitarian, socialist, borderline communist, you know, type approaches because they, they want to accumulate capital just doing it via the government.
00;29;15;16 - 00;29;28;25
Aaron
Unfortunately, they'll learn what I think many, many folks have learned in the past that when the government accumulates capital, it tends to just give it to its, its high ranking bureaucrats. It doesn't tend to pass that back down to the everyday folks.
00;29;28;27 - 00;30;00;10
Chris
Yeah, that's that's the problem, right there is we live in a world and an economy that is built for capture and is so efficient at capture that, like, I'm very wary of any sort of honeypots being created anywhere because the incentive, you know, like people are so inclined to just raid that, you know, this whole, Somali daycare thing, the Somali, autism, like the whole that whole thing.
00;30;00;10 - 00;30;01;21
Chris
Did you watch that whole thing?
00;30;01;24 - 00;30;05;11
Aaron
Did you watch, the Nicholas I watch thing?
00;30;05;13 - 00;30;33;20
Chris
It was hard to escape, so I've seen enough of it. Right? Lost in all of that. Right. Like the DOJ is investigating, you know, health care for the same sort of practices, right? Like, if you, if you have health insurance. Right. And, like, for me, I probably got 50 phone calls, texts like whatever from my health insurance provider last year wanting to send a nurse to my house or to provide some form of screening.
00;30;33;20 - 00;31;03;23
Chris
The reason they want to do that is so that they can reclassify you as, like basically that's like the whole UnitedHealthCare fraud thing right now is they want to shuffle people into different classifications so that they can build a government at a higher rate. Yep. And so like this this happens everywhere. And I think it's easy for, you know, online edge lords to want to point out like the most like polarizing and charged versions of it.
00;31;03;26 - 00;31;23;02
Chris
But like put Nick Shurley in United Healthcare's office have the same level of outrage right. Like think, think with your brain who's who's really the big drain on this world, is it? And look, I ain't advocating what's going on in Minnesota. I'm just saying like, it's everywhere and open your goddamn eyes.
00;31;23;05 - 00;31;45;04
Aaron
Well, that's what I kind of liked about it. I thought it took, like, some of the benefits of our current age of social media, you know, and kind of like, distribution and kind of the edge parts of it, but was applying it for, you know, something productive, right? Like, I think most people would agree that rooting out any form of fraud would be a productive thing to do.
00;31;45;06 - 00;32;06;25
Aaron
And if that trend can get expanded so that people are using kind of that mud breaking, approach, but just in a lot of contexts, I do think that we get, a better society and be able to move closer towards like a higher trust one, because I do think that I don't think we're completely degraded, but maybe that's gone down like a notch, maybe two, depending on your perspective.
00;32;06;28 - 00;32;32;23
Aaron
But, you know, being able to kind of use the benefits of the internet distribution, you know, some, some clever like citizen journalism for good and probably in a, a way that that takes advantage of all these little pockets of knowledge, I think is a good thing. I mean, the thing that was notable to me was not it wasn't actually the Nick Shurley it was the fact that he kind of was empowering this, this guy in Minnesota who had did the work.
00;32;32;23 - 00;32;52;16
Aaron
Right. He like, he he had spotted some things that required a bit more attention. And that person now had a voice, you know, via one of these more massive online influencers to kind of hopefully address the issue. I hope it's everywhere. Yeah, I kind of like the idea of people like quote unquote decentralizing Doge, because I think the core concept of Doge was a good one.
00;32;52;19 - 00;32;56;27
Aaron
The implementation was not the best, in my opinion, but maybe this is a better one.
00;32;57;01 - 00;33;26;25
Chris
Yeah. Well, it's interesting in that we need these Nick Shurley like figures. Because the other one, like, let's go back to base for a second there, right. Like it was the red guy who all of a sudden normalized, I guess, the discourse around, you know, basis creator content calling strategy was misguided. It took like a French flu answer, I don't know, like he's the one who got Brian Armstrong's ear like they have some they had a call.
00;33;26;25 - 00;33;54;06
Chris
They discussed the whole thing. Right. Plenty of us have been critical about bases approach and builders. Right. Like people who have been building on base, I think have been expressing displeasure about what they're promoting or who they're incentivizing in their ecosystem for a really long time. You know, there's someone like me who just flat out understands product and can look at a product and go, this is a goddamn dog.
00;33;54;06 - 00;34;21;00
Chris
And it's an embarrassment, and it's going to hurt you as a publicly traded company and a you shouldn't be doing it for your own sake. But be like, you're peddling garbage and you're hurting, you know, your consumers. That's not a healthy relationship, right? Like, I guess, you know, the, we live in a world where sensationalist who's, you know, I don't I don't follow a thread guy.
00;34;21;00 - 00;34;53;02
Chris
He may have, like, a whole slew of valid points, but, as far as I know, like, you know, he's big in the world of, like, flipping shit coins, you know? And so he gets to talk to Brian Armstrong about this. It's Nick Shurley who gets to be the one that is, the centerpiece and focal point, you know, for these things, like, I, I just don't know if the wherewithal and the follow through or once these people have the platforms, they're the right ones to, be passing the advice along.
00;34;53;04 - 00;34;54;16
Chris
And so.
00;34;54;19 - 00;35;16;06
Aaron
Yeah, I think that's right. But I think they're, you know, to me, it's like they're exploring like a new mechanism, like instead of using all that influenced, you know, promote like an esthetic or, you know, just to get attention. They're, they're using it for something different, which is why I thought it was notable and, and in part why I think it ripped across the internet, you know, so far and wide.
00;35;16;09 - 00;35;35;28
Aaron
I think the, the view counts on, you know, some of the, the, I think that initial video, they were like nuts. Chris. So to me it, it just kind of marks like hopefully the beginning of an era where influence is not just being used to attract attention to like run some sort of grift like you are, which we've seen kind of, happen with some of the influencer.
00;35;36;02 - 00;35;44;21
Aaron
I like that that phrase, you know, maybe it's kind of moving on to like, another level, which is probably a good thing. And hopefully we, we see a little bit more of it.
00;35;44;24 - 00;36;12;17
Chris
So we're hopeful for the rising consciousness of the influencer class as a force for social good that we can we can point to this moment in time where Victor, is getting, a big public stage to talk about the differences in appearance between JD Vance and Gavin Newsom and predicting that the 28 president is going to be Gavin Newsom because of his facial features and his body archetype.
00;36;12;19 - 00;36;34;16
Aaron
So I don't think that, again, get the classic vehicular stuff is kind of interesting. He had this very long interview with, the conservative commentator Michael Knowles, which, I personally was not that familiar with, but there, there was kind of like a long video, two hour interview with this guy Clavin. If you don't know who he is, he's one of these looks mixers.
00;36;34;16 - 00;36;53;21
Aaron
He, you know, will do a bunch of different things to kind of maximize how he looks. You know what I thought was interesting about that, Chris, is he had a real pragmatism, which is kind of like, this is the way the world is, and I'm just going to position myself to kind of do my best in it and that the landscape is really changing.
00;36;53;21 - 00;37;28;14
Aaron
You know, if you want to, let's say, marry or date somebody that's hyper attractive, you're not just competing with your local community anymore. You're competing with everybody on the internet. And so maximizing your esthetics just is helpful there. That's kind of like his core thesis, which I actually don't know is if that's a bad thesis to have. I don't know if he should be the, you know, the person commenting on politics, but I do think there's some interesting things that that he's kind of bringing bring to the, to the table and just kind of his approach maybe is, his solution for it is not right.
00;37;28;14 - 00;37;31;14
Aaron
But the diagnosis, I thought was kind of interesting.
00;37;31;16 - 00;37;57;27
Chris
All right. It's a great framing. And I think the point about you're no longer bounded by geography is especially salient, right? You know, like for, for a while now, I, I've thought in terms of like digital migrations or like dualities of the self or the idea that your place in the world, right, like you, you occupy a physically bounded space.
00;37;57;29 - 00;38;35;08
Chris
I'm literally pacing around a basement in New York. You know, I, I'm physically governed by like my neighborhood, my environment, etc., etc. but like where my agency lives and where my active pursuits lie or unbounded, right? Like I work online, I network online, I, you know, like and so I do think the fact that like, people are starting to have more and more of an awareness that like the, the territory has changed or that we might occupy multiple territories and we need to be thinking, you know, in terms of that is going to be helpful, right?
00;38;35;08 - 00;39;04;14
Chris
Because like, you know, to go back to this billionaires in California tax thing, right. Like part of the issue is it's going to be ineffective because it's capital is liquid. People are not you're not the first family in which like, you're bounded by the Comstock, the Comstock Mine anymore. You know what I mean. And so if we do start thinking about that, it'll it will allow us to come up with, better solutions.
00;39;04;14 - 00;39;32;16
Chris
Right? Like part of what Rob me wrong about this California thing. It's just terribly outdated. And if you actually want to start closing these gaps, you need to be thinking. Currently, you need to be thinking about what if you want to get into, like, progressive taxes and solving for income inequality? I would personally say you got to look at something that's more usage based and usage based in terms of value creation.
00;39;32;16 - 00;39;56;13
Chris
Today, I you should progressively tax compute, right. Like if we want to get into progressive taxation. Look if you're if you're pushing I don't know a million tokens you know, through an AI system that that's like peanuts drop in the bucket if you're pushing, billions of tokens. Right. Like I'm a top 5% user of cursor, as discovered in my cursor.
00;39;56;13 - 00;39;57;26
Chris
A year in rap, right?
00;39;57;26 - 00;39;59;06
Aaron
Congratulations.
00;39;59;09 - 00;40;45;08
Chris
Yeah, I don't know what that says about me. I push like 20, 25 billion tokens in five months. I guess that was what my wrap up. I think I was like 22.5 billion tokens. That is clearly like indicating an increased level of utility. If I'm trading value out of that pipeline and through that throughput, that's the right sort of nexus of taxation or like redistribution of wealth, not, oh, hey, I can only think in terms of like unrealized capital gains and, and wealth in which, like, you're going to fail there because we've already built an entire apparatus and set of loopholes to escape that.
00;40;45;10 - 00;40;54;14
Chris
You know, a lot of these people's wealth sits in South Dakota, sits in Alaska, sits in Nevada, in a trust, in a trust. You know.
00;40;54;16 - 00;41;17;04
Aaron
I think that's interesting. I mean, it's kind of like what almost Bill gates was suggesting, right? Which, I mean, he was suggesting like taxing, like I, or like agents, I think, I think a couple years ago he was thinking about that. I wouldn't be surprised if we kind of moved to that direction. It also would ensure that if you are using a lot of tokens, that you're using it in a productive way instead of just like wasting it in some capacity.
00;41;17;07 - 00;41;38;15
Aaron
And possibly that could be useful even to prevent some, like bad activity that I'm sure people are gonna use these tools for just because it it would kind of force. And this is where I ultimately think we're going to go when it comes to advanced AI, which is they're going to add in like a KYC like human layer to it, so they can start just tracking what you're doing.
00;41;38;17 - 00;41;58;00
Aaron
They're a bit more I'm not advocating for that. I just think that that's ultimately what's going to happen. But the, you know, the capital accumulation and and using it like productively, it's just a huge thing. I mean, there was that even that, that, Substack article from Philip Trammell and to Aakash Patel that were kind of like basically saying that same thing.
00;41;58;00 - 00;42;02;25
Aaron
I don't know if that was fully right, but at least it was an interesting, conversation to kind of open up.
00;42;03;01 - 00;42;23;18
Chris
Yeah. Like the framing people need to get their heads around is capital is labor. And I think that's starting to enter in the into the mainstream. And it better really quickly because, you know, like I like to live in a world full of different viewpoints there. All of them are useful, like situationally depending on what posture you're in.
00;42;23;20 - 00;42;56;05
Chris
Unfortunately, like the left or the critical theory, side of the world has been fairly exhausted. And part of the issue right now is that it's still like stuck in in its Marxist past, right? In which everything is based on, like the relationship between labor and capital and labor doesn't matter anymore. And so, like, we need like we need to like a whole new set of framing, you know, a whole new, like, headspace to get around.
00;42;56;05 - 00;43;24;13
Chris
And you can't just make these leaps right. You do need like, you know, like we can live in iterative worlds. And so the idea that if you put, you know, a metered revenue collection system, a tax on, on compute, you're at least in the same mental framing and mental model. But it allows you to get past this whole hang up about like, humans.
00;43;24;16 - 00;43;46;01
Chris
And I'm sorry to be so crass about it, but, like, we need to be, like, projecting our way forward, and we need to be, like, looking out into, oh, you're going to have this huge fight over, you know, taxing billionaires. You're going to get it over the line. All the billionaires are going to leave, and it's not going to solve like the hole in your the hole in your bucket.
00;43;46;03 - 00;44;10;24
Chris
But what you score ideological points, you, you won the day, you didn't solve the problem. And if we can move into a model where, like, everyone just straight up recognizes, okay, if we if we retroactively raised capital, we start destroying property rights. It's it's a very dark road that always leads to abuse and, a failure to move forward.
00;44;10;24 - 00;44;15;08
Chris
Right? Like, it's it's a dark road and no one, no one should go that way.
00;44;15;13 - 00;44;44;18
Aaron
Yeah, completely. I think labor is beginning to win. Right. And that's like going to be the story of 2026 probably towards the end 2027 2028. It's why the software developer digestion of eyes is so notable. Because then that's going to hit other kind of forms of elite production, you know, thoughts, ideas, lore. Right. Like there's a new movie coming out from, with Chris Platt that's talking about, like, an AI judge.
00;44;44;20 - 00;45;03;00
Aaron
Like that stuff's all going to manifest, like, across the board. My sense, though, Chris, I've thought this for a while. Like, I think the next wave of government is, is actually like, a lot more using these AI systems to make these decisions. Ultimately, I think people are going to opt out of choosing people to kind of manage things.
00;45;03;00 - 00;45;24;17
Aaron
And increasingly just choose algorithms to to do that. And then there'll be like a political layer abstracted above that, just kind of managing and thinking about how to govern those algorithms. A bit more, it feels like that's the direction that we're probably going to head into. So I don't think labor is done. I think it's just becoming less valuable the same way.
00;45;24;17 - 00;45;44;07
Aaron
Like, I don't think media has ever been done. It just became a lot less valuable, you know, on a per unit basis. And that just changes the physics of everything. And I do think both parties, regardless of your political persuasion or kind of leaning back into these like 19th century concepts of how to organize society, are just they're just not equipped to kind of deal with it.
00;45;44;09 - 00;46;01;16
Aaron
And so we're going to have a couple, attempts at kind of, relooking at them, rerunning experiments that clearly have, you know, haven't worked, and then coming up with something new, I think that new is just going to be I need of a bit more to, to start. That's my, my best guess.
00;46;01;18 - 00;46;35;26
Chris
Yeah. Like I kind of agree with you. I don't think it's going to happen in terms of like your, your dispute falls under a court, a court system. And that court system is going to use, I don't think, like we'll ever get to that point. I do think in areas of private law and arbitration that a lot of these things will will start being like settled algorithmically, especially like, you know, smaller, smaller disputes.
00;46;35;29 - 00;47;06;22
Chris
But what I also think, you know, if there's this rising consciousness, let's say that online is a place and online is an opportunity zone, that that means, like the powers of the physical world are going to be diminished and who who adjudicate who controls, you know, law in the physical world, it's the government. And so my framing for all for this has always been I grew up Boston Irish Catholic, right?
00;47;06;23 - 00;47;33;28
Chris
I grew up like the 80s. In the 90s I went to, Catholic high school in Dorchester. I had, we were right across the street from the Boston Globe during the spotlight scandal, which is why I bring this whole thing out. Right? I basically saw the death of the Catholic Church play out in my teenage years, and it doesn't mean the Catholic Church is gone away, but the authority and influence that it carries is greatly, greatly diminished.
00;47;33;28 - 00;48;00;19
Chris
And I personally think, you know, if population, like demographic trends continue to hold that, you know, we're at peak human if we continue along these technological lines, right, where more and more things that matter exist in bits and exist in like a virtual space, I do think, and then, you know, as we get through this, like generational change, right?
00;48;00;19 - 00;48;23;00
Chris
Like, like, why are we at peak politics right now? Why are we at peak government? You know, some of that has to do with the fact that, like a generation, an activist generation, the boomers, right, who, you know, radicalized in the 60s, who made this whole thing the locus of like, their formative existence, captured the machinery of government.
00;48;23;03 - 00;48;42;13
Chris
Like, I think they just care about it. A hell of a lot more than people prior to them and people after them. And so, like, maybe this is just the moment in time in which we don't get rid of government, but it becomes more like, you know, a disc jockey is no longer as influential as it used to be.
00;48;42;13 - 00;48;53;27
Chris
A priest is no longer influential as they used to be. Why can't we get to a point where a senator, a congressman, you know, the mayor of your city isn't as important as they used to be?
00;48;54;00 - 00;49;18;04
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, I think things tend to get the biggest right before they the power diminishes. So maybe that's just kind of what's happening. I don't know the way I think about why we're in such a politically active age. I think it's also just the internet, just that it shows a lot of different things. Right. And people see all these injustices, all these inequalities, all these issues, and they're kind of getting brought to the surface a bit more.
00;49;18;07 - 00;49;37;20
Aaron
People naturally want to solve those issues that they see. And so I think that that's in part what's kind of happening. You know, it was easy before to be in your kind of little bubble, like your, your local community and not really kind of see all the issues that are everywhere. And now I think it's just so easy to see all those issues.
00;49;37;22 - 00;50;03;27
Aaron
I also think a lot of, concepts that are, you know, from other countries are just surface more online, too. So you really are starting to get kind of this competition, competition of ideas, which is a good thing. And that's what's going to reformulate something new. Ultimately, though, I think the next leg is just going to have less humans at the center, whether it's those senators, congresspeople, judges, priests, and it's going to have more algorithmic systems that are just more efficient.
00;50;04;01 - 00;50;26;13
Aaron
And I think over time, people will trust them more just because they don't have a human in the loop. Increasingly, I just think that may feel like radical now, but I think, I think over time it will feel less and less radical. So, you know, once you have for, let's say like 5 to 10 years, like an AI system handling small disputes, it becomes not much of a leap to have it handle bigger disputes.
00;50;26;13 - 00;50;54;11
Aaron
And then once it's handling bigger disputes, it's not much of a leap to for it to be kind of the front line for all these types of issues. You know, and people constantly obsess and worry about, like, the political leanings of, of each of these individuals, that make these big decisions, let's say, on the Supreme Court or in Congress or in, in its in the Senate, or even if it's like a, not even like a democratic system of their, you know, totalitarian leaders.
00;50;54;11 - 00;51;11;24
Aaron
And I just think that you're going to get more consistency from these AI systems, more observability, or at least some more observability and more of an ability to kind of like, fine tune it, like at the edges, which is something where the policy minded folks will gravitate towards and, and probably spent a lot of time.
00;51;12;00 - 00;51;40;09
Chris
Yeah. I mean, I don't look as a human being. I don't like the idea. But at the same time, we we live in a world where, like opaqueness is a weapon and ignorance is a weapon. And, you know, like, how many lines of law do you think we have in this country? Billions. You know, like if we were just like, tweet like like code, code laws, code.
00;51;40;09 - 00;52;05;07
Chris
And so there's an impenetrability of it and there's also a look, I, I prefer to just live and let live. Right? I don't get out of bed and worry about what someone wants to do in their home. I don't get out of bed and worry about like, basically, I don't worry about like other people's lives. Like it doesn't bother me in the least.
00;52;05;09 - 00;52;31;16
Chris
However, there are people who like make that their and all in their be all and it really drives them. And those are the people who get into politics. Those are the people who advocate like, I mean, you know, we've seen this in like, this is basically the difference between, liberals and conservatives when it comes to, you know, like the the great social contract is liberals don't give a shit.
00;52;31;19 - 00;52;53;17
Chris
Conservatives care way too much about it. Therefore they get out and they do all these things. And then you have that in the corporate level as well, where if there's a financial incentive. So like right, like we just all one I don't know, like single payer health care. You know. You know what I mean. Like everyone should just like have universal health care.
00;52;53;17 - 00;53;25;23
Chris
You pay a reasonable amount and like health care should cost what it does in Thailand as it does in the US, but that doesn't benefit the United Health Care of the world, that doesn't like you know what I mean? And so what I'm saying is, yes, I wouldn't mind us moving into, algorithmic algorithmic law and decision making if it can wipe the slate clean of all these niche carve outs.
00;53;25;23 - 00;53;58;05
Chris
Right. Like because it really is like legal or jurisdictional arbitrage that's happening right now. And ever since Citizens United, it's gotten so out of control that that's like the big, in my view. You know, like there's many reasons why we live in a low trust society right now. But at the end of the day, if everyone in this country pays into one giant pot of money and then, you know, we've got all these actors out in the world trying to, like, take an unfair share out of that pot of money.
00;53;58;07 - 00;54;04;25
Chris
Right? Like then we just have no, no trust in the pot of money anymore, right?
00;54;04;28 - 00;54;20;22
Aaron
Yeah, completely. I think it's going to go the other way, though. I think it's going to be more customized rules. So I just I looked it up because it's a great question. Just how many lines of code, lines of laws are, are. So this is just at the federal level. There's about 24 million words in the U.S code.
00;54;20;22 - 00;54;48;11
Aaron
There's also all these regulations put in something called the CFR, and that has about 9 to 10 million lines of code, or which is a lot. Right. But an AI system can easily generate and process that today, and I think what you're going to move towards is actually, like a little bit more customized laws based on your kind of station in life, maybe where you started, where you're from, maybe a bit of your background.
00;54;48;13 - 00;55;19;11
Aaron
And I think that that will be viewed as more just over time. Because ultimately, like, we are just trusting that the algorithm of the government is right, that it is fair, it's fairly dividing up that like pot of, of capital that is pooled together, capital is going to become more important. We're still going to pull things because we need to, you know, build bigger things or, you know, having like, like these super structures, like government is pretty useful, but I think it's going to go towards much more customization and all these issues.
00;55;19;11 - 00;55;37;24
Aaron
When you think about an algorithm kind of running things, they start to fade away. So if the algorithm is increasingly making decisions, there is no issues like Citizens United. If, the algorithms are increasingly deciding what's right and what's wrong. I just think a lot of the, some of these issues just begin to fade away again.
00;55;37;24 - 00;55;53;01
Aaron
Like, I don't know if I'm fully advocating for it. I just think that that is something that's going to going to happen just because I think that there's also, a layer of abstraction that's a little bit useful here, and maybe you kind of elect people to kind of help steward that algorithm, but that's going to be their job.
00;55;53;01 - 00;56;15;29
Aaron
So they fade a little bit more into the background, which could be a good thing. It can bring it out of like everybody's frontal lobe day after day. It becomes like a little bit more policy wonk ish, which, which I think is, is potentially a good thing. And, and frankly, probably how politics operated in the, you know, post-World War Two era and, and an era or a couple of decades that were probably a bit more healthy on balance.
00;56;16;02 - 00;56;43;10
Chris
All right. Let's stay on 2000 years of human history where we're in, France in ninth century BC. We're in the Merovingian dynasty. The king's job King had two jobs. One was to wage war, the other was to deliver justice. Right. That's the only two things a king really like anyone wanted the king doing. And whenever the king tried to exceed those boundaries, people went beyond the reach.
00;56;43;10 - 00;57;04;02
Chris
Or you just gathered up everyone, you know, who had access to Swank, and you put the king in check, and then, you know, from then onwards, we got into this rise as a specialist class and, you know, to be able, as the king assumed, more and more powers, yada, yada, yada. All right. And now we're in this moment today.
00;57;04;02 - 00;57;39;20
Chris
You're you're arguing for, like, customized algorithmic justice. And so in the year 2900, what I am seeing is that the South Dakota Trust that was established for a random bloodline, you know, so someone did great. And, making making a mobile, brainwash game. In 2015, the founder of Zynga set up trusts for his children Alaska, South Dakota, etc. in the year 2900, this this, hypothetical founder of his bloodline is died out.
00;57;39;20 - 00;57;58;13
Chris
But his I trust a high powered trust is still, in effect still managing capital and is still based in South Dakota. But we're now on the moon of Saturn, right? We're entirely mechanized. You're saying AI is going to be the king and deliver justice, and that's what we're going to get back to?
00;57;58;15 - 00;58;24;14
Aaron
Yeah, I think so. I don't think it's really a king. I think it's more like these systems will constantly need to be tweaked, and it will be kind of this dance between humans and, and machine. But that's where the action will be. It'll be much less sun. I think representative type systems, I think because we we just know that every individual is, increasingly just thinking in their own best interests and not necessarily in the, in, collective best interest.
00;58;24;14 - 00;58;51;12
Aaron
And the best way to deal with collectivism is probably via an algorithm as opposed to just kind of like, individual, individual voice. And I just think the scale of laws right now feels terrifying. But, you know, just boiling it down, you know, 50 million lines of, of, of of rules that's that can get kind of filtered through and a couple prompts that can all get pushed into like a context in a couple of years.
00;58;51;14 - 00;59;10;08
Aaron
So, I just think that these systems will be able to kind of understand the complexity, the injustices, the issues that these systems like a lot more a lot more easily than humans can wrap their heads around. And then beyond that, they'll begin to produce a heck of a lot more of it, make it more complicated, more customized.
00;59;10;08 - 00;59;21;21
Aaron
I just think that that's always the endpoint of digital technology. It just more customization. And so I don't know, you know, Mark Pincus is great great grandchildren. We'll deal with those issues. But, you know, maybe the rules are let's.
00;59;21;21 - 00;59;27;03
Chris
Try it out by then. Their algorithms. Yeah. The only thing that, their AI is the only thing that remain. Yeah.
00;59;27;03 - 00;59;46;15
Aaron
But then okay, here's a question. Right? Like what? What what should we do with that trust? Right. To just sit there and just continue to accumulate capital should at that point, you know, some of that capital be used for more productive purposes, like who's going to make that decision? Do you want it to be a monarch? Do you want it to be a small group of bureaucrats and like more of a socialist communist regime?
00;59;46;15 - 01;00;09;27
Aaron
Do you want it to just be the market that decides that? I don't know if any of those answers are fully satisfactory. You know, maybe the best thing is, is to have a system that can, allocate that, you know, in a more efficient way. Now, I don't know if that's going to be the end point, but my my gut tells me that we're just going to see a rise and people exploring that vector just because now we have the tools and the ability to kind of do that.
01;00;10;04 - 01;00;27;28
Aaron
And the current justice system super important. But it's super slow, right? Like people just wait around for years to get answers to basic disputes, which is unfair. It's it's it's, so in Marvel, the world, what we have in the States when it comes to administering justice parts to the Western world to super important. But it's slow.
01;00;27;29 - 01;00;45;21
Aaron
It can be upgraded to, I don't know why. We would just think that we don't want to put that on the table, and try to make that better. Make it faster. You know, maybe you have human review at the edges, but I think most, most disputes, you can probably use an AI system already to kind of do it, probably with opus it or GPT 5.2.
01;00;45;21 - 01;01;00;10
Aaron
It's probably better than, you know, 80% of lawyers right now, whether that's seeped into their consciousness or not, who knows? But by the end of 2026, I think it'll be uncontroversial that that the best legal mind is going to be, synthetic one.
01;01;00;15 - 01;01;23;05
Chris
You as a law professor can can we tear out certain layers of law and treat them differently? Like to me. Right. So there's property rights, which we've kind of danced around with this whole, California taxation issue that when you fuck with fuck with property law, you know, it's, you're back.
01;01;23;05 - 01;01;48;26
Aaron
You create common problems. Well, you don't you're not back in the wilderness. You just create common problems, right? If you can't define with metes and bounds or with certain parameters what is and is not property, who owns and who does not own it? What rights there may be related to property, especially if it's intellectual property. You just run into a whole bunch of commons problems where people will use whatever scarce resource there is in a less efficient way.
01;01;48;28 - 01;02;08;14
Aaron
And that's the real reason we have property rights. That's why it emerged in England. And, you know, the era of Queen Anne, it was really just to prevent comments, problems. So I don't think property rights are going anywhere. I think the folks that want a kind of a road that will pull quickly, find out that that's a bad path to go down.
01;02;08;16 - 01;02;14;21
Aaron
So long property rights, long First Amendment rights. So I think we'll be okay there. Chris.
01;02;14;21 - 01;02;27;02
Chris
Okay, so we got property rights. That's you're fine with them. Then we have basically our, our giant collective condo fee, right? You live in a building and to pay your monthly fee to keep the taxes.
01;02;27;02 - 01;02;27;17
Aaron
Yeah.
01;02;27;19 - 01;02;52;16
Chris
Yes. We've got the giant pool of money. Right. I said earlier on this, maybe we should have a progressive tax on compute, right? Like some form of usage based like, tax that going forward, if we're going to lose labor, if we're going to lose income tax and, you know, and then everything else can like disappear in jurisdictional arbitrage, just meter the metal meter that computes, some solution to that.
01;02;52;18 - 01;03;02;02
Chris
And then this whole AI algorithmic thing is this more like mercantile, like settling mercantile disputes, like justice as a service?
01;03;02;04 - 01;03;32;02
Aaron
It could be. I just I think it's really like, what is going to be able to know how to divide up that pot of money, the the, the shared condo fee. Like, right now you have choices you've got. And we see it. We see this in the States. People struggling with that. Right. We can barely get a budget passed, but I'm sure you know, and 20, 25 years, asking like an AI system to kind of determine where capital should get allocated.
01;03;32;02 - 01;04;01;22
Aaron
It will be better at that then, than the democratic system. Now, maybe you want like a democratic system on top of that to like, approve it or double check it. Maybe you want like a group of, you know, policy minded bureaucrats that are kind of making sure that it's taking all these different things into account. But I would have to imagine even today, with a little bit of effort, we probably could get a much fairer and better, appropriation of those assets than, than what we kind of have now.
01;04;01;29 - 01;04;31;20
Aaron
And I think the other advantage is that these systems will be a little bit harder to, to influence, which is a good thing. Right? I mean, that that's part of the critique is that we live kind of in a grift economy where it's easier to influence, let's say, like, like a democratically elected policy person or a totalitarian leader or the small group of people that run, you know, socialist slash communist, states to take some of those resources and allocated towards, you know, some group or an individual for their own benefit.
01;04;31;20 - 01;04;34;04
Aaron
I just think that these systems will be a little bit more mean to that.
01;04;34;09 - 01;04;38;16
Chris
Depending on which contract wins the system implementation.
01;04;38;21 - 01;05;08;24
Aaron
Right? Completely. Well, that's why I think you probably have like a ring of, of humans that are guarding against that. Right? Like it's not nothing's going to be perfect. The question is, is it going to be better? And I think the answer feels like it, it it could be better. I do think that, you know, either at the state level here in the states, at the province level, at, you know, and let's say like in, in China or maybe even some of these emerging network states, I think that they'll start experimenting with this stuff pretty soon.
01;05;08;27 - 01;05;24;27
Aaron
And as they do, I just think we'll learn, learn some new things. But I do think if we're going to zoom out a decade, it's going to feel pretty obvious that we want to use these systems as part of our our governance. And I do think it's going to represent one of the parts out of the current predicaments that we're in.
01;05;25;00 - 01;05;41;21
Chris
Whenever I like think of like to this problem, I, I'm always like comforted by the fact that Europe figured out how to move, you know, a wagon full of wool, 40 miles without getting taxed 12 times back in the Middle Ages, right? Right.
01;05;41;23 - 01;06;06;09
Aaron
All the tolls. Yeah. Or up the Rhine, right. There was so many tolls that they could barely move stuff around. But that's like a perfect example. Like how many decades that that exist, even though that system was objectively suboptimal, when if you had, let's say, like an algorithm that had a deal with, let's say, like trade imbalances that could really ingest and comprehend a whole bunch of real time data about the economy, you could imagine, like dynamic tariffs, right?
01;06;06;11 - 01;06;23;12
Aaron
Dealing with the flows on a year by year basis, right, or even a taxation system that is like a bit fairer because it's customized for an industry or, you know, for different asset groups or takes into account like geography, you know, things that would be difficult for us to do now because we kind of have these static systems.
01;06;23;12 - 01;06;42;21
Aaron
You could imagine them being much more dynamic, much more efficient, and I think ultimately more fair. And then I think it it builds back in trust. Right? People need to feel like they're getting treated fairly. Like at the core for like a productive, you know, golden age type society to kind of flourish. And I do think we're going to be moving towards that.
01;06;42;24 - 01;06;45;19
Aaron
And I think we've been in a golden age. I think we're moving towards one.
01;06;45;24 - 01;06;56;06
Chris
Well, I would like to get up and think we're moving towards a golden age as well, you know. But let's see how it goes. We, we, we have turned to this is what.
01;06;56;08 - 01;07;22;09
Aaron
I mean, I think this is my 2026 is going to be interesting. Like, you know, putting aside like the last GDP print was like at 4%. Like I actually do think that that's going to ratchet up, I think there's a lot of inefficiencies that we're going to be able to make more efficient. I do think, like we have a lot of creators, at least here in the States and in other parts of the planet, and they're going to be super empowered and make people's lives better, more entertaining, you know, more interesting.
01;07;22;12 - 01;07;45;25
Aaron
I think it's same thing for academics, you know, how many brilliant minds will kind of pigeonholed into like one, you know, topic that they had to spend 30 years becoming experts at what now they really can do a whole bunch of really interesting cross-disciplinary stuff, like core innovation, whether it's like math or science. There's even like, an LM model that only index things historically to kind of explore what history may look like in a different way.
01;07;45;25 - 01;08;04;24
Aaron
I just think they're just everywhere. We're just going to see a lot of really cool, fun, interesting things to, to do. So, I'm, I'm definitely like a techno optimist. And, I wear that on my sleeve. But I do think that, things are a lot better than they. They seem on the surface, I think 2026 is, is really going to be an inflection point.
01;08;04;27 - 01;08;49;17
Chris
There is definitely, a more seriousness or, I don't know, like the novelty, or the fuzziness of what AI is going to do. Great. A lot of that starting to lift and the clearer people can see things and the more informed they are about behaviors, the better job we can do. And so, you know, I would like to think, as this comes more and more into focus, that we can harness it and wield it more effectively, and that we can get past, you know, maybe some of the initial distaste or the, you know, the just the gut level pushback against what's coming.
01;08;49;19 - 01;09;00;22
Chris
You know, you can like things you can not like things, but like, you ultimately have to live in the world as it is. And this is the world, you know, no one, no one ever wins by becoming a Luddite.
01;09;00;25 - 01;09;23;05
Aaron
And this is where clavicle navicular had it, right. Like the way he focused it. And his weird logic was like he wants he's taking the world where it is, and he wants to put himself in the right position to kind of maximize that. And I think that that is like the right framing in a weird way. And coming from a completely bizarre source, but, super interesting to kind of think about it that way.
01;09;23;07 - 01;09;55;18
Chris
Yeah. One of my, more meat specific cakes or predictions for this year. I think it's going to be a big year for, commercial, I think. Chad, third ism. I want to like hyper station, Chad Sert ism into, reality right now because like all these software engineers, all these people who, are going to have a crisis of meaning related to their loss of, identity as a productive force in the economy.
01;09;55;25 - 01;10;22;13
Chris
Right? Like, I hate to, like, frame people as that. But look, if you grew up in, like, Western civilization in the last 50 years, right? Like all your cultural programing boils down to your self-worth is a function of your earning capacity, your earning capacity as a function of like your contribution to GDP. Right? Like literally way too many people in this world just grew up thinking about, like how their life relates to shareholder value.
01;10;22;19 - 01;10;47;28
Chris
And they're about to get a, get ghosted by shareholder value, which means then they need to find meaning in the world. And this was like, you know, Kim, who did a lot of things, he he wrote fiction, but his fiction really doubled as philosophy. And the core tenet of his, philosophy boiled down to absurdism. It was just it was about absurdism.
01;10;47;28 - 01;11;10;24
Chris
Right. And so he basically framed this as we are meaning making machines who live in a world that refuses to provide meaning, right? Like that. That's what absurdism is, is like you're constantly asking me for something the whole way. Your body and your mind is wired is to seek meaning in a world that just is silent on the subject.
01;11;10;26 - 01;11;35;02
Chris
And once you realize, like that silence exists, you're then confronted with the choice of suicide, right? Do I choose to live in a world that rejects, you know, everything I strive for? And the answer is no. You live your life. You find what you love. You find what you get excited about. Day in and day out. And you do what you love.
01;11;35;02 - 01;11;54;21
Chris
You live your life. And I think that, like a lot of people are going to have to come to terms with this and karma is a great vessel for it because the dude was a Chad, you know, he lived a mediterranean lifestyle. He liked to hang out in the ocean. He had affairs. He wrote really good books. He supported the arts.
01;11;54;23 - 01;12;16;20
Chris
He was a part of the resistance, during World War two. Like, really the only bad mark on camera app, to get around, like, the whole colonialization thing, because he grew up in Algeria and he never got pissy about that because he was the dude living in the 40s. Right? But otherwise, like Camus, was a bro and Camus was a great role model.
01;12;16;20 - 01;12;41;22
Chris
And I mean, he's kind of like Anthony or Anthony Bourdain, I guess would be like his modern failure. Right? Like ultimately, like Bourdain chose suicide, but he lived communes lifestyle for a long, long time. Anyway, I think Chad's autism and Camille is a great bridge for people who are starting to have, like, these confrontations of meaning, confrontations with nihilism.
01;12;41;29 - 01;13;02;22
Chris
Like I, you know, I went on this, like, whole sort of secret journey after I crashed out as an operator, and I went looking for meaning. I went looking for how to live my life and all philosophy really kind of boils down to other. You get on the Gardner religion train, and you choose to place faith in something that no one can.
01;13;02;22 - 01;13;25;26
Chris
Actually, the world can't give you any confirmation of. Or you choose to find what you love. Like that's where all I mean, that's where Nietzsche ends up. That's where you end up. That's where like almost all philosophy, if it wants to give you a positive path forward, it's literally like find what the hell you love, find what is meaningful to you and you yourself, and then practice and live it.
01;13;25;28 - 01;13;28;16
Chris
I'm bullish on commercial in 26.
01;13;28;18 - 01;13;33;07
Aaron
I love that, Chris. I think that's 1,000% right. Like 1,000%.
01;13;33;09 - 01;13;39;14
Chris
The other that you find the walls, man, you get bitter, you get angry and you, fight the people on the internet all day.
01;13;39;16 - 01;13;46;08
Aaron
Well, I don't think that's going away anytime soon. I think people still want to fight with other folks on the internet. That's how they're going to fill their time.
01;13;46;10 - 01;14;11;05
Chris
Yeah, that's true, but if you want to opt out from that, you know that, get really into woodworking, get really into birdwatching, get a hell of a golf game. You know, make family game night a thing. Whatever it is, whatever floats your boat. Write a million lines of code with your your agents thinking, you know what?
01;14;11;08 - 01;14;36;21
Chris
This may only reach a thousand people, but who gives a shit? Because it's like, this is where, you know, I find my meaning breaking whatever that thing is like. That's a big transition. I've actually, like, I've. I've lost a few close people in my life and, you know, to suicide. And it really it was a function of they got knocked down and some, some like usually it's illness.
01;14;36;24 - 01;15;03;09
Chris
Right. But it derailed them from their professional pathway. And then like once it was over, they couldn't restore the arc they'd been on and they just spiraled out and it was terrible. And I just I don't want to see that for people. And we're going to have a lot of it coming in terms of, you know, it's going to be like a very exciting couple of decades, but it's also going to be an incredibly tumultuous one.
01;15;03;15 - 01;15;12;26
Chris
And not everyone's going to be equipped to, you know, handle it. And so find shit you love. Practice that. Take meaning in it.
01;15;12;28 - 01;15;14;26
Aaron
Amen, Chris. Amen.
01;15;14;28 - 01;15;19;26
Chris
All right. Dude, we, we went super long for a two man today. We're going to keep going. Let's keep it on.
01;15;19;29 - 01;15;44;22
Aaron
We can keep on going. You know, the one thing I was also thinking about that thousand person, audience was just like, how software will get more afirmo. I know that's something we saw a little bit in crypto, but I do wonder if this year we almost see the Hollywood ification of software where it becomes much more like episodic, like much more like one hit type, wonder type things like, I'm kind of here.
01;15;44;24 - 01;16;06;04
Aaron
I was thinking a lot about that over the past week or so. I wonder if that is kind of another sub threat that's happening in tech. Like we're not going to have as much platform like the platforms have kind of been built or their moats are not that sticky. And instead we're just going to we're really going to move into like this, like Hollywood era of software.
01;16;06;06 - 01;16;40;05
Chris
I'm not quite sure how how this plays out, because the territory I arrange online is fairly constricted. Right? Like I don't go the number of sites I visit them replaces I'm exposed to. It's far smaller than it was, you know, in 2000. Which is ironic because the number of choices you've had is, you know, blossomed. I would say the last time I was really open to, you know, just blowing into shit was in crypto from like 20 to 22.
01;16;40;07 - 01;17;22;29
Chris
Right. But then that whole process of like, value capture and extraction moved so quickly that crypto soured so, so fast. And then it immediately, you know, made me not want to engage with anything. And then that posture was actually proven right as crypto got grittier and grittier and more vaporous and and like, you know, like crypto really speed ran, an entire, you know, oh, my God, this is this, like, brave new world to this is just like the scuzzy is back back alley where I'm going to get knifed and my organs are going to be stolen.
01;17;22;29 - 01;17;31;06
Chris
It did that in like a five year stretch. And so I kind of went I went off the rails with you. I heard what you were saying there, like.
01;17;31;12 - 01;18;00;14
Aaron
Now, but I think it's right. Well, one one thing I've been thinking about a lot is, is that constraint. And I do wonder the primary computer for people is their phones, right. And that really has like a locked down non open internet. And it's not surprising that the endpoint of kind of like the mobile era has been effectively cable TV because you have the, the Onramps really tightly controlled by Apple, you know, and to a lesser degree, with the, you know, the Android ecosystem.
01;18;00;17 - 01;18;26;06
Aaron
But I just think the form factor, there's a lot of constraints and kind of like the mobile internet, which makes it feel very small, and it's making it feel like increasingly less useful or shittier. Right. I think that's why when Cory Doctorow said that the internet was getting it should have fired. What I think he was, was saying in part, was really just the mobile era of the internet was really bad, in part because it's a lot more like cable TV.
01;18;26;08 - 01;18;49;26
Aaron
You know, you've got like five channels you flip through. It's it provides like entertainment. It doesn't provide much more. There's no expiration. Crypto is a bit of like an antidote to that. But it was so rife with like fraud and lack of regulatory guardrails. It was just like Commons problems after Commons problems, just compounding. But I do think it showed kind of what the post mobile phone internet looks like.
01;18;50;04 - 01;19;12;00
Aaron
And I do think this notion that you're going to have more of a firm, all software was, was one of the threads that we saw in kind of like, later sage crypto. And I do wonder now that everybody can build stuff. People are going to be clever with it. If the if we just start to see a whole bunch more of that.
01;19;12;02 - 01;19;30;27
Aaron
And like the right way to kind of like set up an organization, a software organization is much more in, like a studio, like Hollywood production type model, as opposed to these like fixed teams that are, you know, toiling away for a decade, you know, trying to build like one thing, which is kind of how the setup is today.
01;19;30;29 - 01;19;43;00
Aaron
They're kind of like a battleship, right. The current setup, when I think, you know, software has got to be a little bit more, you know, like, fast moving drones. I don't know if that's the best analogy, but maybe there's something there.
01;19;43;03 - 01;20;14;25
Chris
Yeah. All right, so I got two things for you on that thought. One, I think the right analog to where the internet is going is actually how you behave as a consumer today in meatspace. I actually now think of like being online as operating out of my cloud. Like I kind of I somewhere over the last couple of months, I've passed this turning point where, regular Http internet is like reading the newspaper to me or putting on cable TV.
01;20;14;25 - 01;20;40;16
Chris
It's a second screen activity, and when I'm actually online, I'm now operating my my agent and I'm calling things on demand, which is very similar to actually like how you behave as a consumer in the real world. Right? Like I need to eat. Once this is over, I might go up to my kitchen or I might walk out the door, and when I walk out the door, I might not know where I'm going for lunch.
01;20;40;16 - 01;21;03;00
Chris
But I know I have ten different spots, right? Or big lifestyle choices. Say I'm having a baby, right? Like at a certain point in my life stage, I now need to pay attention to a very specific class of retailers. And so I might find myself in, you know, babies across the bunch for a very short period of time.
01;21;03;02 - 01;21;51;12
Chris
And then I move on. Right. And so maybe as we get into, you know, online behavior more as, a set of, like, agenda interactions out of a command and control center that we're not even thinking about the internet the same way we are anymore. We're thinking about, like, Http as newspapers, as FM radio, as cable TV, where it's like it's still a thing that exists, but it's not like your primary where you go out and about and how you go out and about now is you send an agent and your agent is task oriented, and it doesn't have any real lock in in terms of where it's choosing to take that task.
01;21;51;12 - 01;21;54;05
Chris
It's just doing what is best for the job at hand.
01;21;54;07 - 01;22;21;27
Aaron
I do think that feels right. It does feel like a little bit. I do think that observation, that it feels a little bit like the newspaper feels right, like it's kind of how I approach it. Like it's not something I, I kind of always am seeking. I'm kind of going within with a purpose a little bit. Like if I was reading a newspaper way back in the day, I like, hit my, like 5 to 10 spots and kind of like move on with my day, which is a bit different than how it used to be, which was this like area of exploration.
01;22;21;29 - 01;22;45;01
Aaron
And it does feel like software is kind of rooting more into the individual. I don't know if you saw this like pickle project, which is I think, you know, the concept is really like, let's pull together all your different platforms and build like a system that really knows you like you're the core Adam, on the internet. Like you should have your own personalized software, that you use to kind of interact with the public.
01;22;45;01 - 01;23;04;08
Aaron
And I do think that that I do think that that piece is going to be, like a bigger and bigger theme. And maybe that is kind of the next era, where you have your kind of own customized software, maybe it uses like some sort of like base, like base set of software that it's built off of.
01;23;04;11 - 01;23;23;16
Aaron
And then you go out and kind of interact with the world, and then I think the constellation of what the internet could look like is just like a lot more of these, like, you know, afirmo faddish type apps that, that we interact with, which would just mean, like the way, you know, you kind of interact with the internet, just should should shift a little bit.
01;23;23;16 - 01;23;45;02
Aaron
And the way software gets produced is like a little bit different to like, if you know that your software is going to have like a time limit on it, like you maybe only get 12, 18 months, it starts to feel a lot more like traditional media, like a movie or TV show, right? Like it kind of has like an end, an end point to it, which I don't think exists right now.
01;23;45;02 - 01;23;57;05
Aaron
With software like right now, software is kind of like like a beachhead. And then it expands out from there instead of like, something with a clock on it. And I just think that thinking of software with a clock on it is, is kind of interesting.
01;23;57;08 - 01;24;25;23
Chris
Yes, it it definitely is, because the internet's clearly failed. We want to treat it like a newspaper. Okay, well, the newspaper has a paywall. And then you're like, okay, well, what the hell am I looking at this thing for? Like, why is Google News listing something, you know, that is, say, Texas Monthly behind a paywall? Like, there's no way on Earth I'm ever going to subscribe to Texas Monthly, even though, like, their journalism is great, I might only want it like once or twice a year, so that that's a failure.
01;24;25;25 - 01;24;50;27
Chris
But then it's like, okay, don't put it behind a paywall and we're going to throw so many popovers, ads, interstitials, and then all of those are going to like constantly reset my browser. Like, you know, I don't know if you experience that where like, as all these videos like queue up like, you know, and you're scrolling on your phone reading an article, the whole page, like loops back again in the beginning, and you got to like, scroll through.
01;24;50;27 - 01;25;19;00
Chris
Anyway, the whole point is the internet's failed and it but it it failed because it's had this inertia in which, like failure can settle in because it's akin to survival. And so, yes, if we are now, I don't know, moving into more of a model where the internet's like your car, you just get in your car and you go places and you know you're going to a movie theater, and that movie's only there for a short amount of time, or you're going to, a play on Broadway.
01;25;19;01 - 01;25;23;11
Chris
But whatever it is, like, you go into more event based things, right?
01;25;23;14 - 01;25;24;12
Aaron
Exactly.
01;25;24;14 - 01;25;48;13
Chris
Yeah, I think that makes sense. And part of the problem is today, all those like, sort of a thermal event based things have to hang in these aggregation platforms. And so, you know, maybe as we get into more of an agenda, you know, agenda seekers as a new form of research, right, in which it disintermediate algorithmic discovery.
01;25;48;13 - 01;26;16;14
Chris
And, you know, we can really move to like semantic, type discovery or, you know, move to like a different way of getting information. And that's going to change our whole relationship. And you know, how how we interact with things that it will open the, the horizon again, because right now the cost of discovery deduces and worth the squeeze, which I think is why, you know, we've all, like, really narrowed down how far we roam online.
01;26;16;16 - 01;26;48;17
Aaron
Yeah. And but I think it's the nature of the algorithms and the platforms. Right. Like they're maximizing it for the middle, not for the explorer, because that's just not as profitable of a strategy. But I do think kind of that aperture is going to open up again in interesting ways. And I do think we saw this. If you start viewing, software a bit more like traditional media, you just you start to have to look to like the Hollywood TV type model, where you have a bunch of different people that are good at, some tasks that could be like design, that could be distribution.
01;26;48;19 - 01;27;14;03
Aaron
And they're kind of like teams that form just for a moment and then move on to kind of the next project. And you would imagine that there would be some sort of an organization that would be useful or good at kind of collecting that energy and making it repeatable. Just because I do think even with AI, though, they'll still be some sort of playbook that will emerge where people should be able to to kind of push whatever, software they're building.
01;27;14;05 - 01;27;35;01
Aaron
To the forefront in like a more efficient way. So I don't know exactly what that looks like, but it feels like that. I bet by the end of this year, we'll start we'll start to see some early glimmers of that. Maybe, maybe next year. But it just feels like that's the case. Like when everybody can be a creator, like these creator models, which are more media models, I just think become more salient and relevant.
01;27;35;04 - 01;27;55;07
Aaron
I don't know if the internet is failed. I just think it's plateaued. And it's it's kind of that's what makes it feel crunchier. It's become more like zero sum and not it's not growing at the same rate that it did before. And the opportunity space is just getting more narrow. So I think that that's why people, you know, are lamenting it.
01;27;55;09 - 01;28;05;08
Aaron
But I take like a slightly like, slightly more measured, point on that one. But I do think that this current era is just like at, at its end, for whatever reason.
01;28;05;10 - 01;28;35;23
Chris
I wonder if we'll freeze the term internet and it will really mean this plateau, and it will start to become less and less useful a term, you know, it really will become like cable television, a very specifically defined media environment. And that, you know, we'll still be using all the same rails. We'll just call it a different thing because nine, nine, six, you know, bag maxing is going to give way to Chad Surd ism.
01;28;35;23 - 01;28;38;11
Chris
And we'll need secret agents.
01;28;38;13 - 01;28;41;18
Aaron
To find the biggest chads.
01;28;41;20 - 01;29;03;21
Chris
Well, the biggest chads are going to be the ones who find the most meaning in life. They're going to be the ones who are just like, you know what? I'm really into whittling wood on my porch. All my dog snores next to me and my drone patrols. Whatever. Or, you know, maybe, they just have a whole world of dudes to send, like, drones to beaches to go collect seashells on their behalf.
01;29;03;24 - 01;29;15;20
Chris
Who the hell knows, man? But, like, I think I think our, our, our future chats are just going to find something a little more interesting than, drone enabled, treasure hunting on the beach. But,
01;29;15;23 - 01;29;16;28
Aaron
We never know.
01;29;17;00 - 01;29;19;01
Chris
Yeah, you never know, dude.
01;29;19;03 - 01;29;42;09
Aaron
Yeah, well, I think that's a good place to, to kind of break. This is our 60th episode. It's me and Chris, on net society this week. Happy new year. You know, we talk about all things internet. I crypto art, technology, a little bit of politics, everything in between. Thanks for joining us. And just a quick reminder.
01;29;42;11 - 01;29;53;28
Aaron
Nothing we say here is investment advice. Nor does it reflect, anything of our parent organizations to the extent that we have them. So let's kick off of it, you guys.
01;29;54;01 - 01;30;18;26
Chris
I do have a parent organization now. It answers to me. I actually am going to it's a stockholder Inc, a Delaware, a C Corp, but. Oh, you did it. Yeah. Yeah, I made it up. Yeah. Well, my, I got someone coming on starting Monday, so it's it's good. But the investment advice I'm going to give because I am going to give investment advice, Aaron.
01;30;18;26 - 01;30;21;22
Chris
But it's not function but it's invest in me.
01;30;21;26 - 01;30;24;27
Aaron
Let's see. Advice investing beginning.
01;30;25;00 - 01;30;36;29
Chris
There you go. But realize that you live in a world which gives you no meaning back. And that's absurdism. And what you have to do is find inner meaning. So I love it. Sure.
01;30;37;01 - 01;30;39;20
Aaron
I'm an agent, Max, of absurdism.
01;30;39;23 - 01;30;42;08
Chris
Chad. Third is, let's fucking go, baby.
01;30;42;10 - 01;30;49;20
Aaron
Let's go.
01;30;49;22 - 01;30;50;05
Aaron
Do.