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Leading Awake is where top executives, founders, and senior leaders drop the mask and get real about the human side of leading at the highest level. The high-pressure, high-stakes moments where leadership actually counts. The decisions, conversations, and responses that can't be taken back. Each episode brings three of them into the kind of unscripted, honest conversation that doesn't usually happen in public.
Ashona Kooblall (00:00.066)
There was serious fear before I made those decisions.
Mike Smollan (00:03.914)
Choosing between right and right. It's easy when you're choosing between right and wrong.
Graeme Wild (00:03.914)
Hope is not a strategy.
Gilan Gork (00:08.302)
Three leaders on what it costs to stay true when the pressure is real.
The Chief Brand Activation Officer at Smollan, the CEO of Sappi South Africa, and the Group CFO of iOCO.
Mike Smollan (00:21.312)
I will be as honest as I can be with you.
Gilan Gork (00:23.662)
Three leaders and one question that every leader eventually has to answer.
Ashona Kooblall (00:23.662)
Integrity isn't just about personal ethics, it's really about institutional courage.
Graeme Wild (00:33.996)
I will debate anything with you until I tell you no, now the decision's made.
Mike Smollan (00:33.996)
I take everything personally.
Ashona Kooblall (00:40.576)
Am I going to seriously break something by doing this?
Mike Smollan (00:43.424)
You are in control of the decision and that makes the other person very vulnerable.
Graeme Wild (00:43.424)
And if they're hearing more from the outside than you're willing to share with them, well then trust is gone.
Gilan Gork (00:51.478)
As a leader, what's the cost of staying true?
Ashona Kooblall (00:51.478)
It has never been about me proving myself.
Gilan Gork (01:02.840)
Welcome to Leading Awake. I'm Gilan Gork. And I want to ask you something. As a leader, think about a time when you knew what the right thing was to do, but doing it was going to cost you something. Maybe it was a relationship, maybe it was a deal, or maybe it was the version of yourself that everyone else was comfortable with. And you had this moment where you thought, if I do what I believe is right here, I might lose something that I can't get back. That's what this episode is about.
The cost of staying true. What happens when your integrity is tested? Not by some dramatic ethical crisis, but by the slow grinding pressure of real business decisions where people's jobs, livelihoods, and trust are on the line. If you're new to the show, a bit about me. My background is unusual. I started out as a professional mentalist, working with the human mind on stages around the world, and that path eventually led me to the world of leadership, working with leaders and organisations across the globe on what it really takes to see clearly and respond wisely under pressure. And that's what this show is about. The inner game of leadership. The stuff that doesn't get talked about enough, and is the stuff that matters most.
Today's conversation is called The Cost of Staying True. I sat down with three leaders who have each been tested in ways that truly don't come with the playbook. Graeme Wild is the CEO of Sappi Southern Africa, one of the country's largest forestry and paper companies. At the time of recording this, he had just stepped into the role fairly recently, and he stepped into the role after three consecutive record years, which sounds like a gift, except that the pressure to put your stamp on it started immediately. He talks about something that a lot of new CEOs face, which is how to know when to act fast and when to hold back, especially when every piece of advice that you're getting says do something now. And he also shares a story about selling a sawmill in a rural area where the decision came down to five words. And that's a story that I think every leader should hear.
And then we have Mike Smollan, who is the Chief Brand Activation Officer at Smollan, a global brand agency that employs tens of thousands of people. And Mike says something in this conversation that may be seen by some as controversial. He said, I take everything personally. And then he explains why that's not a weakness. He also talks about what it's like to choose between right and right, not right and wrong, when the decision affects people's livelihoods. And that line alone is worth a listen.
And Ashona Kooblall, who is the Group CFO of iOCO, formerly the EOH Group. And when she stepped into this role, the company's revenue was in the top quartile of the JSE, but profitability was at the bottom. And she made the tough calls in the first three months and delivered the first solid profit in four years. But what stayed with me is what she said about why she did it.
So today we have three leaders, three very different organisations, and a question that kept surfacing across all of their stories. When under pressure, what does it actually cost to stay true?
Before we jump in, a quick word about my PEAK Practice Programme. There's a formula that I keep coming back to. Performance equals potential minus interference. See, for most experienced leaders, their most important leadership development isn't about needing more skills. It's really about clearing the inner interference that shows up when you're under pressure. And that's what the PEAK Practice helps leaders to do. If that sounds interesting to you, you can learn more at peakawake.com.
So let's get into the discussion. I'm really excited about this conversation. And just firstly, a big warm welcome, everyone.
Graeme Wild (04:46.210)
Thanks very much.
Mike Smollan (04:46.210)
Thank you.
Ashona Kooblall (04:47.630)
Thanks, Gilan.
Gilan Gork (04:47.630)
Our session today, the topic is the cost of staying true, leadership that doesn't sell out under pressure. We don't know where the conversation's gonna go, of course. It's really organic. But I do like to open up every roundtable with a question that just kind of warms us up a little bit and gets to know each other a bit, which is, what is one belief, it could be about leadership or about culture, that you've changed your mind about?
Graeme Wild (05:16.056)
You know, I'd say it's about having to always know the answer, or appear to know the answer. And you know, I've always, I guess, in my career in a corporate at Sappi, you know, I spent virtually my entire career here, you have this feeling that the boss, the CEO, you know, they always know and they know what to do, they make the decisions. And so stepping into this role now, it's been about nine months, and very early on thinking, geez, but actually I'm not sure here. I'm being faced with a whole bunch of new things that I haven't dealt with before, and I'm not certain.
And then you start to think, well, were those previous CEOs, were they actually always certain about what it is they wanted to do? Or were they actually having their own doubts and thinking about it, and consulting with others and then, you know, coming back. And so speaking to and getting the opportunity to speak to some of them that I know, and previous bosses that I've had in the organisation, absolutely, there are going to be times where you're not certain and you need to consult more widely, or you just need a time to think about it. I often find that the answers come to me maybe much later, the next morning on a run or something, suddenly the clarity comes there.
Although leaders will often give the impression that they're always certain and all the rest, that's belying the fact that actually there's still some uncertainty there, and they're going to figure it out. And maybe that's what makes a good leader, is recognising when they don't know and waiting to make that decision. Or sometimes making the decision, but being prepared to change it when they recognise that something else should have happened.
Mike Smollan (05:16.056)
I had such a similar response to Graeme. You know, this idea that when you're sort of young in your career, that CEOs, you know, great CEOs, men or women. And I think some of this kind of clarity has been extremely disappointing, I would say, from a leadership and particularly political leadership perspective, but some has been quite comforting.
You know, you believe that these are people, great men and women, who are, you know, really well educated, extremely ethical, you know, have a huge knowledge base. And you believe that they're in these positions because of all of this input, and they're making the best possible decisions that they are. And as you kind of go through your career, you start to realise that this is not the case. These are human beings that are in positions of, you know, some sort of power, and you kind of hope that they are doing their level best and making the best decisions with the information they have available, and hope that they're searching, as Graeme says, for more information or people who have had experience or some more inputs to be able to better their decisions.
And I say it's really disappointing or so comforting. It's disappointing because this illusion of, you know, brilliance leading the world, both, you know, commercially or privately and governmental, it disappears, you know, it's shattered at some point, and you realise that these are just human beings. But the comforting side is that you, you know, you too are a human being. And you know, as you sort of go through your career and have more influence and have more growth, there's not some magical gift that was given to certain people. You know, this is about learning, this is about asking questions, this is about continuous growth, and then applying the best that you have to those situations.
And most of the time, you know, the decisions are easy or, you know, functional, and some of the time they're really, really not. And you know, to Graeme's point, it's sometimes actually the best decision is to wait and allow yourself to digest, and take input from other people and digest some more. And as your kind of unconscious filters through all of this input, you know, bang, as he says, you know, on a run or four o'clock in the morning, you think, geez, I've got clarity, this is actually the right way forward. So I think this illusion that, you know, great leaders are kinda born and destined, you know, and the shattering of that sort of holy grail is, I think, something that's profoundly changed over my career.
Ashona Kooblall (09:41.880)
I think with great leadership comes great responsibility, and even greater expectation from the business. And I just generally ground myself, and over the years I've felt that over time you get even more passionate about value creation as a leader, full circle leadership. Even with all the demands and the great expectation that the leader is this great person that's going to have all the answers and now, now, now decision making, I tend to just take a step back at times and be patient with myself, and be patient with the rest of the leaders in the organisation as we do this on the day-to-day basis. And by doing that, you see, you get to the right answer eventually. Sometimes you have to slow down, and at times you, of course, you have to make the decision quick. But I've learned to balance that.
Gilan Gork (09:41.880)
What is a value that you thought you understood earlier in your career, but only really truly learned through pressure?
Graeme Wild (10:41.432)
I think it's absolutely about being honest in your interactions. In my career, I was responsible for investor relations for a long time. So you've got to be honest with investors and analysts, etc. But there's a limit to what you can share. There's a lot of rules about what can be and can't be shared. So, you know, honesty doesn't mean talking about everything. But particularly when times get tough and you're thinking from a business perspective, and you know, the employees are nervous, they're reading about things, the share price is under pressure or whatever it is, you've got to be honest and acknowledge that there are those pressures, acknowledging what is going on as far as you can, and then giving, I guess, people a reason to hope, or to understand why things are happening and why decisions are going to be made.
It's just so much easier to be honest than to try and skirt around things and hope things change before reality bites, or before, you know, negative consequences, suddenly they're not receiving bonuses. It's obvious to say honesty is important, but when the pressure is on and you start to think about the consequences of not being honest or not being transparent to the business, it just makes it very clear. You're dealing with people, and they're going back and they're talking to their families, they're talking to their friends. And if they get the impression that they're hearing more from the outside about what's going on in your business than you're willing to share with them, well then trust is gone, and all of those sort of things. So yeah, the hard times make it very clear that you've got to be transparent. You've got to bring the people with you, 'cause that's the only way to get support.
Gilan Gork (12:42.040)
So yeah, it reminds me of something, one of my favourite things from Eastern philosophy, the two question filter, is, is this truthful and is this helpful? And it has to kind of check both of those boxes. I found that to be really, a really useful method. Yeah.
Ashona Kooblall (12:42.040)
So from my perspective, I think, you know, integrity is something that just circles in the discussion I see from here. And integrity was always a word I associated with doing the right thing. But I've learned that integrity isn't just about personal ethics. It's really as well in our roles about institutional courage. In a company that I've obviously been through quite a turnaround, rebuilding trust, engaging with team members in order to drive the courage through the decisions that we were making was pretty important. You take your people along the journey.
I've also learned that leadership is not about always being liked. It is about making decisions that's right for the business for the long term. And you can be great with teams, you can be friendly in nature, you can be very top of game in terms of how you interact. But there are times when you have to make the tough decisions and ensure that you're taking people with you when you make the tough decisions, so they understand that it's done for the long term health of the company.
Gilan Gork (12:42.040)
What happens when the decisions that you have to make, even the right one, is going to cost someone something?
Ashona Kooblall (12:42.040)
I think, you know, ambiguity is when you actually don't have the detail. And not every decision, you know, has the detail. But it's super important for you to understand the business, where it's coming from, what's the stakes, and to ground yourself around, you know, do I have the right information? Am I listening to the right people? Are we aligned in our views and values behind this decision, and take it from there. What I've sometimes noticed is there's hesitation around a decision, there's lack of information. And I try to be the glue to actually get it all together and get the teams rolling around what we need to do going forward.
Mike Smollan (15:07.990)
I think trust for me is the one. You know, when you're younger, you kind of think you know what trust means or why it is so important. And over time you realise that it's actually much more complex to earn, to gain, to keep. It's more vitally important than anything. You know, as some of the others have said, in difficult situations, you know, people won't like the decision. Some decisions are very hard when they affect people's lives, when they affect people's livelihoods. Some decisions are difficult to take, but they are the right decision. And if you are trusted, that has a massive impact on the decisions you take, the following that you have, the ability that you have to make difficult decisions and see them through.
People can argue, disagree, debate, completely disagree with a decision or an outcome, but that there is a level of trust. In big corporate businesses, you know, ours has a slightly sort of different nuance, but in big corporate businesses, you're not always sure about your colleagues and what their intentions are, and you know what their attitude towards you is, and you know who's vying for what position. And so to live in a place where you trust your kind of peer set and your colleagues implicitly, I think that for me is probably one of the most powerful attributes. And I didn't think so. You know, I would have thought intelligence or, you know, capability or all these sorts of things. But trust I think is for me really foundational.
Gilan Gork (16:36.130)
Have you ever had to choose between being liked and doing what you believed was right?
Mike Smollan (16:41.228)
Our business, we employ, we're fortunate to employ a large amount of people. And often, you know, our clients or the markets dictate a downturn or a change, or a change in strategy. And, sorry, I'm sort of getting to the answer of the question of choosing between, I guess the point is choosing between right and right. You know, it's easy when you're choosing between right and wrong, but when you're having to make the decision between right and right, and I find for me, the times in my career that have been the most difficult is when it affects people's jobs.
You know, we are privileged to employ people. It is our responsibility to give them good employment, development as humans, grow them as people, and when we have to end that employment, that's for me the most difficult decisions. And those are not liked decisions. And so sometimes it is out of our control. In fact, most of the time it's out of our control. How that affects people's lives, that I think is the most difficult decision to make. And that's certainly between, you know, being liked and making the right decision.
And I think coming back to that sort of point in the beginning where there is no answer, playbook, you know, genius gene that you have to be a CEO or a decision maker. It comes down to your knowledge, your experience, input you take from others, and a lot of your own feeling about what you believe is the right decision. And sometimes that decision affects individuals for the sake of a business, or it affects, you know, the business for a sake of another business. And I think trust in yourself and your knowledge and your experience, to take guidance from people who've done this before.
When you are explaining the decision that affects somebody else, that is a difficult decision, do it clearly and with empathy, because you are in control of the decision, and that makes the other person very vulnerable. And if you can express it clearly, and express your thinking, and express your intention with empathy, I think that goes a long way for people to understand and accept the decision.
Gilan Gork (18:46.953)
Ashona, Graeme, what are your thoughts on that?
Graeme Wild (18:49.230)
Trust is the important thing. Not everybody's gonna like every decision you make. And I wouldn't think that I make decisions based on how am I getting people to like me, but what you want them to do is trust that you're making the best decision. But trust also then that, where some people are going to be, at least as far as they're concerned, disadvantaged, right?
You know, we just recently, in the last week in fact, concluded a deal to sell part of our business here in South Africa, a sawmill that we've owned for a long time, and one where we've struggled for many years to turn it around. It's a very difficult industry. And we were sort of faced with a decision, do we close it down because it's been loss making for so long, or do we try and sell it, knowing, being loss making, it's going to be very difficult to sell it for any meaningful amount. But, you know, made the clear decision, it's about people's jobs. And again, with a lot of our business in very rural areas, those jobs are vital in rural areas.
So if we can find somebody who can give it a future, because they're actually able to run it in a way that we can't, and you know, sometimes there's an advantage to being a smaller private company rather than a big listed corporate entity with all of the overheads that come with that, then that's, you know, it's a positive for us. We don't have this loss making entity that's taking up an inordinate amount of management time, but it's positive also to the employees there, because now they have future prospects under a new owner. And it's a difficult time for them. They may wish they could stay a part of the big group that they've known forever, but ultimately it's the right decision.
And if you're confident in that, and the people trust you, then in that moment they may not like it. But I think over time they come to understand, both, you know, the entity that's been sold or the people that are affected, and the people who remain behind, understand it was the right decision, ultimately, hopefully, for everybody. And so yeah, I come back to the trust. Do people trust that you're making decisions for the right reasons, and if you're able to communicate that, all the better. And then it makes it easier to make those decisions where you know some people are being negatively impacted in one way, form, or the other, but it is for the right overall reasons. Then yeah, that makes it a lot easier to make those more difficult decisions.
One of the things I found myself saying a few times over the last months to people is, hope is not a strategy. And the other thing I've had a few conversations with people about is that, you know, the difference between business school or university and real life, or real life management, is typically in university or business school, everything, in theory, you need to know to answer the question is given to you. The reality in real life, when I was doing M&A particularly, was there's huge chunks of information that are actually not available.
And I guess I'm saying all of that to come back to, there's very often where you can't have a hundred percent certainty about something, because you can't have all of the information. You can't know exactly how competitors or your own employees are necessarily gonna react to something. But you've got to come to some level of comfort that, given what I know, this is what I believe. And then maybe the step beyond that is to say, but if I were to learn something, what is it that I don't know that would be important to me? And if I subsequently learn that, what would I then have to do?
Because again, I guess sometimes you forget you can undo decisions. It may be expensive, it may be difficult. But if you then come to learn something that's now contra to what you'd assumed before, well then you need to be prepared to change it or modify that decision. It makes it easier in some ways to say, okay, again, given what I know now, this is what I believe. Let's do this, but then be on the lookout for what may change your mind, and then how do you react to that at that point?
Gilan Gork (23:13.944)
Thank you. Ashona, what are your thoughts on this?
Ashona Kooblall (23:13.944)
There were some times over the past year where I had to make some really big decisions. And obviously, as you said, masks down, right? There was serious fear before I made those decisions. Do I have all the information? Have I consulted enough? Have I understood the people side of it? Have I understood the shareholder side of it? What's the impact going to be in three years from now? Is it going to be good for the business, or am I going to seriously break something by doing this?
Thankfully, it's been great for the business. But in that moment, I firmly believe that, you know, a leader needs to trust themselves, and have confidence in yourself, and give yourself grace through tough calls as well. But from a trust perspective across the organisation, trust in the leader isn't built in the moment you make the decision. It's built months before that. And if your people can see that you've properly assessed the situation, you've taken counsel from the right people, you've understood it, and you've made the decision and explained the why behind it, the tough call becomes that much easier. But there have been situations that, you know, as a leader, you're only human, and you've just got to continue on the path of what's right, be relentless around value creation for the business, and continue that way.
Gilan Gork (23:13.944)
How did you decide which changes to make right away, which ones to leave alone? You know, those are all really big decisions as well, as you step into that new role. And of course, in your context as well, you were stepping in, in quite a unique situation as well.
Ashona Kooblall (23:13.944)
So iOCO is formerly EOH Group. I was a finance director in EOH within the different businesses. For like four years I moved around the businesses, and I gained a lot of institutional knowledge in those years in terms of, you know, the nuts and bolts, our customers, our partnerships, and really the blood of the organisation. So I'm quite passionate about what the business does. We are a technology partner to more than five thousand customers. If you look at our revenue value, we're on the top quartile of the JSE, but a year ago, our profitability was at the bottom desk of the JSE. So definitely great value in the organisation, but something was obviously not working from a profitability perspective.
We understood the issues, we had to re-devise in terms of a strategic focus and our key areas of improvement. What's working, really elevate that and empower that and invest in that, from a what's working perspective. And then really ring-fence what's not working, and continue to restructure the strategy around that. So yes, when I talk about tough decisions, those tough decisions were made in the first three months of the organisation. And as you would see, that which was publicly released in terms of results for the first half of the year already, was the first profit, that solid profit, that we made in four years in the company.
So the navigation part of doing this and the mental impact on the leader can be tough, but super important that leadership leads with strength, leadership leads with courage and clarity. So by just taking our people together with us, that look, this is what we're going to do, this is how we are planning to do it, we're going to take you with us and we're going to execute it together, has been a key win.
So just to clarify, you know, it has never been about me proving myself. It is about relentlessly, you know, making iOCO great. And what do we need to do strategically to make iOCO great? And some things needed to be done really quickly, and some things, you know, continue to elevate and empower the businesses for the longer term growth. So it was a well and very balanced approach, specifically the lenders, the shareholders, the customers, the partnerships, just to ensure that we protect those relationships moving forward. And each is in such a good place right now, and so much of confidence in the company, that I personally feel the balance in terms of how we did it was great.
Gilan Gork (23:13.944)
Everyone around the table here is relatively new in your roles. How did you decide what changes to make right away and which ones to leave alone? And as you step into a new role, if you feel any of this tension to have to obviously show, I use the term prove yourself, maybe that's not the best terminology. There's expectations that you'd create change, balancing that with the need to earn trust over time, which sometimes making too many changes right away could potentially threaten that.
Graeme Wild (28:30.882)
Yes, I think mine's obviously different in a way, because I took over from somebody who was effectively retiring, and it had been three consecutive record years for the business. So on the one hand, no major driver to have to change things. And so in fact the messaging very early on was, you know, the strategy that we have, still very much believe in, and it's really around the nuances of the tactics, or how do we deliver on that strategy, that I want to change.
There is a pressure in a way, you feel like you need to put your stamp on this. You've now taken over, and if you aren't seen to be doing something or changing something, well then, you know, what is the CEO? What's the role of the CEO? I don't know, all those sort of questions. And people are waiting, you know, they're anticipating that there's going to be change. And I had some people who had gone through similar, you know, taking over as CEO of businesses, saying, yeah, you've got this golden period in the first few months where you can change things, and no one's questioning necessarily, you know, the individuals aren't questioning why you're changing something. If you wait too long, then if I'm suddenly moving somebody from one position or one role to another, it must be because I think they're doing a bad job or something.
I did feel like a lot of the advice I was getting is, you know, you need to act relatively quickly. You've got this period where it's easier to get things done. And some changes did happen relatively quickly, but I found that was where I'd had direct experience of that. Of course, you know, coming in as a CEO, suddenly you've got a whole bunch of areas that, certainly I hadn't been involved with before, whether it's unions, government stakeholders, you know, all those sort of things where I don't have experience, relative to the strategy side or sales and marketing, which was my role prior to becoming CEO, where I, you know, I had a lot of clarity, and where I thought this is exactly what I would like to change, what I would want to do differently.
So I guess I managed to blend the doing something relatively early on, to put your own sort of stamp on it, by focusing on the areas I knew well and where I was clear on what I wanted to change. And then giving myself more time on some of the other areas, but also recognising with those areas, I needed to bring people along with it. And even if I had an idea, this is what I wanted to do, I would need to bring a wider audience along, so that they bought into that same idea. I guess I saw it as a sort of a phased approach, that yeah, wasn't quite as big bang as some people think it could have been, or should be, or something, as a general rule, but something I was more comfortable with, around, yeah, in terms of the pace of the change.
And then, yeah, the business world changed with Trump and tariffs and all the rest. And so suddenly things get their own urgency put on you from the outside, and then be able to react to that. But having learnt along, taking those first five, six months to learn, I guess helps, I would hope, made it easier for me to make the right decision subsequently, rather than having leapt in and made a whole bunch of changes that then possibly had to be undone very quickly thereafter, because the world had changed.
Mike Smollan (28:30.882)
The sort of historical family business does pose a kind of slightly different nuance. I think, you know, we've always, even from the early days, tried to run it with really sort of rigorous corporate governance. And I think, you know, we've got big institutional shareholders. And so it really behaves functionally very much like, you know, like a listed corporate. The reason I'm sort of saying that is it in a way gives me the luxury of not having to worry about this feeling of it necessarily being a family business. I don't think anybody sort of assesses the decisions through that lens.
If you're a skilled leader and if you're a capable corporate citizen, you will use your best judgment. I think very much it depends what role you're entering. You know, sometimes you enter a role where business is failing, clients are leaving, you know, operations are bad, and that requires save the patient by any means necessary. You know, do what you need fast to stabilise the patient, and then you can think about kind of the other longer term things, culture, capability, et cetera. And sometimes you're fortunate to come into a position where you've had a wonderful leader before you. Business is stable, handed over well, you can settle in, you can take your time, you can meet the clients, and then you can sort of think about what impact do you want to make on that.
And so, you know, it really depends on the portfolio you're taking on. And I think, you know, as the portfolios get bigger, the fun part is these things are not either good or bad. You know, some parts are shocking, some parts are medium, some parts are fantastic, and you've got to sort of play this different altitude game with each of those. So I don't think that there is a golden period. I think, you know, to Graeme's point, I do think that often people rush to make decisions to try and have an impact.
And certainly when executives or people start in our business, and we try and meet everybody who starts, you know, around our business in a sort of medium to senior position, my response to them is just wait, just listen and learn. This is a complicated business. It is a big, difficult business to understand. Don't worry about trying to make an impact. You will in time. We have faith in that. Just settle in, learn the landscape. Because what you find people do is, under this pressure trying to make an impact, you know, trying to justify themselves or their promotion or their position, they make decisions, which with all good intention, you know, they do, but they haven't quite got the context yet, or they haven't got the history yet, or you know, they haven't gotten the tempo yet. And so, you know, it's unreasonable to think that that will turn out to be a great decision. And if it is, it's a complete fluke.
So, you know, I think this idea of just, just hold on. And like I say, it depends on the urgency of the need, it depends on the kind of business that you're running, but, you know, take time. And I think that the only thing that I would say that is consistent, whether it's, you know, failing business or succeeding business, an easy takeover or a difficult one, is the people are core to that. You know, if you get the right people in place, people you trust and they trust you, even if it's early on, you know, you get a sense for that. Once you have those people in place, then you can effectively do things fast or slow, or big or small, or at scale, because you know that the people who are executing kinda your thinking and your debate, believe it, accept it, and, you know, execute it the way that you would.
Gilan Gork (35:26.990)
What Graeme, Mike, and Ashona have been talking about isn't just good decision making. It's about what happens when the stakes are high enough that your brain starts narrowing. You know, when the pressure builds, your perception gets smaller and you start defaulting to what feels safe, what's worked before, even when the situation is asking for something different. You get faster but less clear, more reactive but less considered. And the gap gets wider between what's actually happening and what you're able to take in, especially in this demanding and highly complex world that we're leading in. And this all happens usually without you even noticing.
So that's the inner interference side of the equation that I mentioned at the start of the episode. Performance equals potential minus interference. And this, you know, the narrowing, the reactivity, and the defaulting to a smaller version of your capacity under pressure, this is what that interference actually looks like in practice.
The PEAK Practice Programme is something that I built specifically to help leaders to clear that interference. It's a 14-day guided audio practice designed for senior leaders, and its whole purpose is to help reduce that interference so that you can actually access the capability and capacity that you already have, instead of operating from a smaller, more reactive, narrowed place. It takes about 10 to 15 minutes a day, and the leaders who've been through it consistently say that the biggest shift isn't just in the crisis moment, but it's in the everyday decisions where they used to operate on autopilot. They start catching themselves earlier, and they start seeing the things that they used to miss. And the positive impact of that really compacts and compounds over time. So if that sounds useful, head to peakawake.com. But for now, back to the conversation.
How do you maintain trust with your team when you're making those hard or unpopular calls? What are some of the internal things that you might do or say to yourself to make sure that you show up with the right presence? And maybe what are some of the more practical ways that you bring people together or communicate with them?
Mike Smollan (37:36.814)
Trust and authenticity. You know, when you are authentic in interactions, people, you know, even if you don't consciously pick it up, people very unconsciously pick up when someone's being inauthentic. It's very easy to kind of tell. And then, you know, trust is much harder to earn. And I think honesty, you know, particularly in difficult processes, to be able to say to people, I will be as honest as I can be with you. Anything you want to ask me, you can ask. Sometimes the answer will be, I can't tell you that right now, and as soon as I can, I will tell you that. But feel free to ask anything you want, and I will give you an absolute honest response.
And again, you know, if you say that with authenticity, and people believe that with authenticity, I think trust is pretty easy, even when the answer they know is not going to be a good one. You know, if somebody asks you a hard question, you give them a hard answer, truthfully, and with empathy, and with authenticity. That is a great foundation of trust, because they know they're asking a difficult question, and they know it's hard for you to answer. And if you're not hiding behind, or you're not using words to duck and dive, and you're not, you know, trying to sort of play corporate speech, you be direct and you be honest and you be authentic. I think that's a pretty sure recipe to build trust.
Graeme Wild (37:36.814)
And I said to the team when I took over the job, I said, I will debate anything with you, and you can change my mind, until I tell you, no, now the decision's made. I've heard your points. They may be valid points or whatever, but for these reasons, this is the course we're going down. If all you're doing is issuing edicts, it's very hard for them to trust you. So building on that honesty and transparency, but yeah, be prepared to listen, and then explain, and then say, but this is what we're gonna do. And I think that builds trust.
And then I think the other one is to, and it's something I do grapple or struggle with sometimes, is actually making sure you've brought people along a journey towards that decision. Ideally, especially with your most senior people, it shouldn't be a surprise that you've got to there. They should have seen it coming, you should have had conversations, I think, so that they see it's a journey. This wasn't something that you dreamt up overnight, or that they feel they were excluded from that decision in the process, when it becomes apparent you've been thinking about this for months, and you've possibly been talking to some other senior people and not them, you know, then that's gonna make it hard for them to trust you. So I say difficult for me, because I'll spend a lot of time thinking about things. But then saying, you know, I need to share what I'm thinking about with some of these senior people, and make it clear that thinking about it doesn't mean a decision's made. But you know, seeing that as part of the journey of bringing the people along.
Gilan Gork (40:29.312)
I was working with an Exco not long ago, of a company that's growing quite rapidly. And one of the sessions that we were doing was around a thematic goal, or determining what is the highest priority, and just getting everybody rowing in the same direction. And they thought that they were rowing in the same direction. And then at the end of the session, the CEO said, geez, now I really realise how much more I could be communicating what it is that I've been thinking, and bringing everybody along with. So you know, Graeme, you mentioned it's something that you think you can get better at, and I think it's actually a very, very common thing.
Ashona Kooblall (40:29.312)
From my perspective, just to add on, I think, you know, confidence in the leader is so important. And if the team can trust and see that, you know, there's an authentic approach from the leader, there's been a proper consideration of what's being decided on, and the why is explained quite clearly, and there's follow-through in terms of, after the decision's made, how's it actually landing on the business. That really builds a sense of trust across the organisation, that we actually have a leader that is properly considered in his or her views. But then I also say, you know, the leader wouldn't be a leader if he or she has to ask for permission for every single step they need to take forward. So it's again, you know, comes down to balance in terms of inclusivity, and also making the decision when needed.
Gilan Gork (40:29.312)
I think a lot of that trust is when I think we can pick up that a leader is not acting from a place of ego. When leaders are in a fixed mindset, and have the sense that their performance is attached to their identity, then they tend to be quite reactive, and will prioritise short term results. With a growth mindset, where we believe that our result or our performance reflects not our identity, but rather our approach, our effort, our method, you know, those things that we can obviously grow and change over time, then it feels less personal. And so those leaders are able to take on feedback more, see, you know, that they could change their mind. And there's often this kind of straddling that balance between being reactive versus responsive, or being, you know, that short term versus long term, and maintaining trust all throughout.
Ashona Kooblall (42:52.342)
I think we've all had our moments of, you know, taking stuff personally and being quite reactive. I mean, we've all been through a journey, we've all been through some serious places in life. But there's one thing I just remind myself when I'm placed in those situations is, you know, with the leadership comes great responsibility, and you have power, don't abuse it. Take a step back. And I believe in an overnight rule. You know, just unless the roof is falling, it can wait. You know, take some time, take a step back, follow the process, to Graeme's point. There's obviously pressures, but what I firmly believe in is just follow the process more often than not, unless the roof is falling, and then you've gotta be quite reactive. It's out of learnings over the years that you realise, you know, there's no real value in running around taking everything personally and being reactive, and just not trusting the process. Trust the process more.
Mike Smollan (44:08.906)
I may be a bad example. I take everything personally. And I, you know, I think as long as you're aware enough not to allow the emotion to be the reaction, I find taking it personally helps, you know. And I think that if I believe this is my job, my business, my people, my money, my expenses, you know, I think there's a level of ownership mentality that really helps. And actually, often we try and sort of instill that heavily in people in our business. What would you do if this was your business? Should we spend the money on this? Well, if it was your money in your business, what would you do?
I take it all personally, you know. And stepping into a new role, new portfolio, you know, numbers are going bad and you sort of been in five or six days, I take it personally. It's now my role and it's my job. I think the ability to sort of separate the reactiveness from how you take it, that's the difference. You know, most people who take things personally then react emotionally, because they're sort of taking it personally and they want to defend themselves. And so I think if you can separate that reaction, I don't think that there's a method or a formula or, you know, any way to do it. I think it is very, very hard to not be reactive. I think it is very hard not to. We're humans, you know, we have emotions, we are reactive, particularly when we feel like it's unfair, unjustified, whatever the reason is.
And I think, you know, this is simple. We've spoken a lot about trust. Trust in yourself, trust in the people around you. Don't be pressured into making a decision. And, you know, all of this stuff is far easier said than done, particularly when you've got the market, or you've got shareholders, or you've got a board that is, you know, phoning and mailing, or even if it's clients, you know, what's going on? I want a decision. You've got to be strong enough to be able to hold until you are comfortable enough to make a decision. And that is a kind of logical process. That's not, you know, an emotional process, although you have to be aware that the emotion does enter, and you have to be aware of what is entering it. 'Cause if you are sort of blind to it, that's where you lack self awareness. But if you understand it, and you're open to it, and you feel the emotion, which is completely normal, then get back to kind of logic.
Gilan Gork (46:40.320)
I'm also in the camp where, like, I've had to really, and I still do, have to do a lot of work on myself to not take things personally. Like, I grew up with kind of a very fixed mindset. So when I do really well at something and it's very successful, man, it really feels very good, because I feel like it's showing me that I'm good enough. Like I was born as one of, like, the specially endowed, you know, brilliant people. But then the opposite happens when I have a setback, or a failure, or a piece of, like, critical feedback on something, and all of a sudden I feel really shit, because, like, is this gonna be the thing that reveals that actually I'm unintelligent? You know? So that's kind of the thing there. And so I feel like it's really been a worthwhile process for me to have that perspective shift. Mike, I'm like you, where I tend to take things personally as a default, and it's been kind of, you know, a worthwhile journey.
As we start to wrap up, I've got a couple of kind of quickfire questions to ask you guys. So picture a young leader who's asking for guidance before making a really big values testing decision. And if you had to pass one piece of advice about leading with integrity and with trust under pressure, what would that be?
Graeme Wild (47:56.044)
I'm gonna go and link it to something, what we tell teenage kids around social media and all the rest. Would you, before you post this, would you be proud, or be happy, if your parents saw this, or your grandparents, or if you read this again ten years later? After you've made this decision, are you gonna be proud? Are you happy to share why you did this, and you know, your thinking and all the rest? If you're not, then have a second go at this.
Mike Smollan (47:56.044)
I think mine would be trust yourself. You know, I find so often the things that I've really battled with is kind of driving myself mad by overthinking a decision, you know, and not just trusting myself. Do the research, get the data, you know, get some input, and then trust yourself to make the right decision, and make the best of that decision. 'Cause often, actually, it's not the decision that's critical. It's the implementation of it, or the execution of it, or the way actually you handle it. You know, those are the crucial things. So trust yourself, make the decision, and then make the best of that decision.
Ashona Kooblall (49:06.446)
Trust yourself is super important, and stay true to your values. Ensure that you deliver with high level of integrity and excellence, and you'll go a long way.
Gilan Gork (49:06.446)
What is one thing? It could be a habit, it could be a mindset or strategy, it could be a protocol, anything in your life that has most improved your leadership effectiveness.
Graeme Wild (49:28.056)
Psychedelics is probably the wrong answer. I would say for me, and we touched on it very briefly, but the discipline of exercise. And I guess exercise can take different forms. I tend to change between running and gym, doing both. The discipline to do that, and the moments of clarity I find from doing that, or while doing that, particularly the running part of it, I found have made a huge difference.
Yeah, it's something I only really picked up, COVID, probably the best thing that happened out of COVID, and being trapped in a house and suddenly thinking, well, I need to do something with this time, and solid exercising. And since then, you know, trying to be consistent, and dragging yourself out of bed, and you know, I think there's a discipline to all of that. And as I say, I've learned that the clarity in runs, or in the shower afterwards or whatever, I've made some big decisions in those times. And I think that to me has had a strangely fundamental impact on my ability to make decisions, lead, et cetera.
Mike Smollan (49:28.056)
You know, I've funny enough completely agree with the exercise thing. I think that there's something about, and I mean we were talking about it anecdotally earlier, you know, something comes to me while I'm running. There's something about physical exercise that not only is critical for kind of longevity and all those sorts of things, but just clarity of thought. You know, it forces you to sort of, whether it's doing weights, or you know, whatever your Hyrox or whatever your thing is, or running or cycling, just gives you space to kind of let your unconscious digest.
I do like therapy. I think that to have a space to talk, to think, to explore yourself, to understand yourself better, I think, has really helped me kind of unpick some of the things. And then I would say curiosity. You know, I think what happens so often is we're curious about everything as we're kind of young, and then sort of as we get older, we develop this mindset that we, you know, know enough. And I think my dad is a great mentor in this regard. You know, he's 80 years old, and you know, he picks up the phone and says, okay, I need an hour, you need to explain ChatGPT to me. And he'll go spend the next week, you know, learning, thinking, doing, experimenting. And I think if you're curious, you know, forever, curious in what people think, curious in why they think your decision is wrong, curious why the client isn't happy, curious why the market's reacting the way it is, I think that is a hugely important leadership trait.
Ashona Kooblall (52:12.206)
So I fully support, you know, exercise as a point of, you know, focus, clarity, and just getting out there. I also strongly suggest, you know, visit the spa, to both Graeme and Mike. Sometimes it's not just running and weights, but visit the spa. Rest is important, and it's just so nice to be rejuvenated and move forward. But from a leadership trait perspective, you know, I truly value discipline and hard work, and respect for others. Curiosity is also something I align to quite strongly. And yeah, focus on doing the right thing, and what you want to achieve for your company and its people.
Gilan Gork (52:58.200)
What stays with me from this conversation is something that none of them planned to say. They each came at it from a completely different angle, a completely different industry, and of course a whole different set of pressures. And they all landed in the same place, which is trust.
Graeme said something that I think a lot of leaders feel but don't say out loud, which is that hope is not a strategy. And then he showed what the alternative looks like, you know, acting where you have clarity, taking time where you don't, and trusting that people will follow if they believe that your decisions are made for the right reasons.
Mike reframed something I think many of us have been told is a weakness. You know, he said, I take everything personally. And instead of apologising for it, he showed how that ownership mentality is exactly what drives better decisions, so long as you can separate the emotion from the reaction or the response.
And Ashona walked into a company where the numbers were brutal. She made the hard calls in three months and delivered the first profit in four years. But the line that I kept coming back to is, she said, it's never been about proving myself. And I think that a lot of leaders need to hear that, because the pressure to prove yourself can become the very thing that gets in the way of doing the actual work.
So one of the things that I'm building with the show, as you can tell, is to create a space where leaders can actually talk to each other about the stuff that usually stays behind closed doors. And so if something from this episode stuck with you, I would really love to hear it. Drop a comment, let me know what's landed. You know, was there a moment where you thought, I've been in that position too? Or maybe there's a question that you would like for us to explore in a future conversation. And also have a look at what other leaders are saying in the comments, and reply to someone. You know, share your own experience. Because one of the things that came through clearly today is that the cost of staying true is something that every leader pays. And hearing that other people are having to pay it too, it just makes that load a little bit lighter.
If you could subscribe and follow the show if you're not already, and leave a rating wherever you're listening, that really helps more people to find these important conversations. Now, I mentioned the PEAK Practice at the start of the episode. And if you're curious, here's why it connects to what we heard today. Every leader in this conversation had the potential, the experience, and the capability. But what made the difference wasn't learning some new skill, but it was about getting past what was getting in the way. You know, things like the self-doubt, the pressure to appear certain, and the narrowing of perception and bandwidth that happens when the stakes go up and that pressure builds. And so the PEAK Practice is designed to help you clear that inner interference, so that you can actually access what you already have when it matters most. It's a 14-day programme, just 10 to 15 minutes a day, designed for busy leaders. And you can head to peakawake.com if that sounds like something that's going to help you to succeed.
Thanks so much for listening today. I hope you enjoyed it, and I look forward to seeing you in our next episode of Leading Awake.
Ashona Kooblall (55:22.274)
Yeah, it was great. Thank you, Gilan.
Graeme Wild (55:55.104)
Thanks, Gilan.