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The Curious Roots podcast digs deep in the living earth of our personal, familial and communal lives to help us understand how we exist in the world today. Though the format of the podcast may vary from season to season, be it narratives, one-on-one interviews or panel discussions, the root line is the same. What are the stories from our family and community histories that travel with us into the present? How do we understand and work with these histories as both individuals and as collectives to create the world of now and the future?
Season one of the podcast begins with the maternal story of my own curious roots, still buried, but breathing and holding fast in Harris Neck, Georgia. Each week, in six short form episodes, I’ll share the story of my mother’s people and how it informs my life today.
Curious Roots is hosted by Michelle McCrary and is co-produced by Moonshadow Productions and Converge Collaborative.
Allison Dorsey:Um, but when I was taken out to the Morans, um, in February of this year, we had an exchange. Their family legend was that when Mustapha returned home for land and to get his mother, his father had refused him land and his mother, which is probably true. What they didn't know is that his brother had sold him for a dollar 10 acres of land.
Right, so the family legend is he squatted on the land and that's why it was eventually taken away. It's eventually taken away in the 20th century, but it has nothing to do with squatting. So I was able to say to them, well, actually, here's the original deed. He didn't squat on the land. He purchased it and he purchased it from his father. And by the way, do you have his Civil War pension record? And so in exchange, they gave me a copy of the video
michelle: that was a clip of Allison Dorsey reading from her paper, the Legend of Mustapha Shaw, slave, soldier, and Rebel. Dorsey was also featured in episode six of the Hulu docuseries, the 1619 project, talking about Mustapha s Shaw. Terry and I talk about Mustapha s Shaw. His legacy and some of the lessons we can learn today from the spirit of his defiance.
Right. Oh, okay. Well thank you for that. Um, I think we're gonna take this. Point to transition to Mustapha Shaw. Okay. Um, cuz he was also spoken about in this episode. Um, and folks who gave me some feedback on the first season of Curious Roots, really, of course, wanted to know about Mustapha Shaw, know more about him because he's quite cinematic.
terri: He's a superhero.
michelle: Yes. Right, right. I know in the episode, Nicole Hannah Jones talks to Alison Dorsey, who's basically like the foremost, um, scholar out in public about Mustapha Shaw. But, um, I wanted to talk a little bit about him and. I think what I'm really curious about him and people's fascination with him and from your work, you know, uh, with mu researching him and researching, um, the history around him, is it that we can learn.
From his life and apply to now. Cuz I, I know that we talked about, um, the spirit that we have, and even in the episode they talk about the spirit of Mustapha Shaw is clearly in his descendants. Um, but what in that spirit do you think, you know, from your, what you know about him from your work? Can we kind of apply to this moment?
terri: Wow. Um, there's a lot to unpack there. Uh, first of all, I, I had been researching Mustapha Shaw for many, many, many years, and, uh, was intrigued when I ran across his name because I could discern that it was an African name at that point, which you didn't have a lot of people. I mean, everybody was naming their children by traditional European names and then see, Mustapha.
And then, uh, when you go to the records too, it does change uc, Stafford, which is also taken off of Mustapha. But, um, so immediately I was drawn to this, this, this figure. Um, what I didn't know. Was, uh, the details, uh, uh, that were contained in the pension, and that's the work that Dr. Uh, Allison Dorsey ran across, um, his military pension records and, and the early deeds.
And. I happened to be attending an A symposium back in 2007, I believe, and I'm sitting there with my cousin as she is presenting this, and we're looking at each other and I'm like, oh my God, I'm overwhelmed. I'm like, this is, this is our cousin. You know this right? This, he's, they're talking about our cousin and she's revealing, um, I already knew.
That particular branch of the family for one, is very, uh, very determined. Uh, very vigilant. Um, just really strong qualities. Um, uh, they, they are the, the, you know, we would say the rebels in the family because they would always, you know, push against any type of, of barriers. And it all clicked for me. I knew where this came from, this, this sense of identity, this sense of connectedness to the land, this sense of.
Of, you know, not taking anything off of, of anybody, you know, just pushing up, standing up, you know, uh, for their own rights. And, and, and I think that is the great lesson that we get in reading about his, his journey. Um, what I did learn at the symposium, um, one of the details that stood out for me, cuz I can almost.
Envisioned this as she was talking about it, but she started describing this man, which she was shocked because in her ma in her mind, prior to finding these documents, she was thinking of this man that was kind of like an African men, uh, warrior, a manka, you know, that's say 6 5, 6 3. And she was surprised to see this little wiry.
Mulatto man, blondish, you know, uh, light colored hair, gray eyes, Sandy. Um, and, uh, I knew that to conform with, you know, this side of the family and the cousins that I knew that physically, that was no surprise whatsoever, but the strength that he would exude. You know, it's like the size didn't matter, you know, he, he had, uh, work to do and he, he's putting this bull knife, this bo, this bowing knife, uh, into his, you know, between his teeth.
And he's using the pistol that he mustered out of the U S C T with the United States Colored Troops. Um, he's using this pistol and he is going down in a blaze of bullets. He's like, I'm, you know, basically from, uh, the way. The pension relates it. Uh, the US government at this point had rescinded, uh, field order 15, and they were removing, uh, the former bondsman that had been given title.
Legally, you know, to, to their properties and, uh, had raised crops at this point. Um,
michelle: and this was on Ossabaw Island, correct. So on, on
terri: oba, right? Mm-hmm. Right. And they had come in with appointees to remove him, and he just was not having it. This was not you, this was not today. So again, the image of this little wiry man throwing this, this knife between his teeth and pulling out his gun and going down in a blaze of bullets, shooting his way off of the island.
With his two cousins, Robert Delegal and Lee Delegal and, uh, Paulo Brown, um, which I haven't established the, the connection to him, but I'm certain he'll be tied up in the hard lines in some way. But the, you know, these men, you know, expressing no fear and standing up for their most basic rights, you know, this, the right to own this property and, and holding the government accountable.
That's, that's the, the big lesson here, holding the, the government accountable. Um, or at least attempting to, because they didn't take it on the chin. And that is counter to a lot of the rhetoric that we've been fed over the years. Whenever we, we talk about enslavement, whenever we talk about the, uh, the period after, uh, during reconstruction, uh, even during the thirties, we're always told how docile.
African Americans were how we were subjected to all of these horrors. And we somehow, you know, took it onto chin without question and then you've got this man, you're just like, no, not having it, you know, and Right. And that, you know, that is what pulled me, pull me in. And then to see him not only make it off of Ossabaw, but we find him years later at Nephew's Hammock where he's purchased property, he then goes ahead and he buys.
Uh, I think about 20 more acres, I believe from the former planter, Charles Spalding. And he raises this, this family of his. And, um, from what I understood, when people would describe the properties out there, you know, it is, it is their definition of abundance. They were fed well, they lived well. They, they planted, you know, all sorts of, of trees, uh, that were, you know, great food.
They, they, they lived off of the land, you know, they hunted, they, uh, fished, they were shrimpers, uh, and, and they prospered. And here we see this man live. His life basically raises three sets of children. He ended up with three wives. Um, so he raises his children. And he leaves them comfortably when he passes away around the turn of the century.
He, he leaves an estate and an estate that has to be legally divided. And, um, that for me was awesome. That for me was
michelle: inspiring. Yeah, I, I love the story of Mustapha Shaw and I love, um, how it kind of, Surprisingly intersected with the story of my family and my thorough great-grandfather, Lester Grant. And he was among the folks who helped Lester and Elizabeth move back to Harris neck off of St.
Catherine's, um, right after the Civil War and the other piece, um, from the episode of 1619 Project. Um, they talked about how the men who went to fight, uh, in the Civil War, the formerly enslaved folks who went to fight in the Civil War, um, would leave in groups. And I like to imagine that, you know, Mustapha and Lester and who knows how many of my other relatives, they went off to the 33rd in a group.
And I think that that. Has some truth to it because you see in the pension records that you shared with me so generously that they were always around helping one another. Yes. And I think that's the thing that I got. As well. It's just like a sense of like, we have got to do this together. We have got to help each other.
Comradery. Comradery. Mm-hmm. We have got to be there for each other. Um, I'm sure they didn't all get along. I'm sure they didn't all, it wasn't all love and light and roses and especially when you consider, um, how much, uh, you know, how many wives he had. Some folks, you know, they liked the ladies
terri: and well, well, legitimately they did pass.
They, they did pass. So he was just one of those, uh, men, you know, that, that outlived them, you know. But, uh, they, you know, Tomber was the first wife and, and she died young. Uh, Basically Maryanne, the second one would pick up, and then we would have, uh, the last one, Florina. And, uh, you know, and then she was, I, I know a lot of them, uh, made reference to her age because she was the young woman.
But, um, she, uh, She was fortunate to him, you know, cross paths with Boor, his child. And, uh, it, it's a really interesting period after that because there were some issues in, in terms of dividing the state. But again, you know, you said we're family. Not everything's all roses, even among family members, so,
michelle: right, right.
But I think the ability for everybody to kind of just understand this larger thing that was happening and just the sense of community, which was also cultural. Yes. Yes, for sure. Um, and then just I, I feel like that sense of like stubbornness and the sense of, you know, I. To quote the old Negro spiritual knuck. If, if you Buck, if
terri: I haven't heard that one. I love that one.
michelle: Yeah. I feel like he embodies that, he embodies that culture of, you know, don't start none. Won't be none. Exactly.
terri: And, and I think that's why his story is just so intriguing and definitely inspirational. Um, it's a, it's a spirit. Again, that I said I recognize in the cousins or descendants from that line, I, I see it in them all the time.
They're fighters and, and, and, and for the most part, most of 'em are very successful. Uh, they, they really did that, that spirit was passed down and, um, I, I do like to look at Mustapha as reflecting the spirit of that community because I see it in, in other families as well. I think that's another reason why when Harris Neck, uh, happened the way that it did, it wasn't, again, a sense of just going down and taking it on the chin.
They could, they, they, it's in their dna. It's definitely in their dna.
michelle: Yeah. And I, I, I also observe this sense of, um, Forethought, like the forethought that he had to purchase the land. He doesn't seem like he was a reactive person. It seems like he was very circumspect and he, you know, planned ahead and he wasn't reacting.
And I would like to think we could take a lesson in that sense of like, um, thinking toward. Not only the distant future, but the immediate future. Cuz I think he did have the next generations in mind, obviously. Right?
terri: He had his hi eye on the pie, basically. Yeah. And, um, he wanted exactly what he had had observed as an enslaved person.
He understood the value of property and ownership. He understood that ownership would, uh, ensure his, uh, family stability, uh, wealth, um, and he pursued it actively. Again, you know, he could have settled at nephew's, um, nephew's, um, uh, point now I'm confusing the name actually cuz there's so many different areas.
But, um, he could have remained at that, that place and not dreamt anymore. But instead, when the opportunity to purchase from Charles Spalding came up, he acquires 20 more acres and 20 acres is nothing to sneeze at. That's quite a bit of property, you know, for, for that time and quite a bit. Uh, you know, for his descendants to reside on and thrive.
So, yeah, he, he was definitely a visionary. Definitely hardworking, definitely understood the values that, uh, again, make us Americans, you know, uh, you to the pursuit of happiness basically. And, and to become landowners, to have something to come here, to leave here with more than you can. So, yeah, so I, I think all of that, uh, I, I see all of that whenever I think about him and, and
michelle: his journey.
Yeah, I, I love that and I just love that also, it wasn't just, you know, his family that benefited the community, grew out of, you know, what he was envisioning for his family and like, you know, it was, again, the collective, the community. It wasn't just about, you know, I. Oh, I'm gonna just take this land for my people and like, oh, so what if everybody else is starving?
You know, they has no way. They, they were
terri: very collaborative and I think, um, you know, part of it is the need too, because they, their communities have always been under siege. You look at that period immediately after, uh, the war reconstruction, it's one of the most violent periods in US history. Um, you have.
Uh, wealth of, of poverty, basically, uh, everybody is in sad shape. You know, the, the ex confederates have lost everything they've owned. You have very desperate, you know, people at this point and having the community come together would be the ultimate support and, and shield. Against the, the, the things, the types of violence that were going on.
And, and again, we see this cuz we see this down the line when we look at, say, the Darien Insurrection at the turn of the century. We have a whole community that comes together to defend a man and to demand, uh, a trial by his peers. So, That's kind of a, again, one of the takeaways I get when I look at this period.
I look at the life that Mustapha led. I look at his peers, I look at his relatives, and I. Um, I actually sense this still, you know, it still exists this day despite how, uh, you know, modern distractions have, have come into our day to day. Uh, there is when, when families get together and, and they have these reunions, they still are able to pull that sense of belonging, that sense of support and community together, despite all the craziness that we've all endured.
michelle: Thank you so much for listening to the second installment of our bonus episode series. We love having the opportunity to speak with Terry and tapping into her research and her wisdom and her insight, and. Um, just getting the perspective on many of the battles that communities are still fighting today in the coastal south, and just connecting them to ongoing struggles that have been happening since most of our ancestors were forced to these shores.
Um, I hope that you will follow Curious Roots on Instagram at Curious Roots Pod. We have a lot of updates over on Instagram about community efforts against greedy developers, um, community efforts to save historic buildings. Um, Just lots of information that we try to reshare coming out of the low country about what's going on.
And, you know, we also share some,uh, fun information as well, different events that are happening, um, down in the low country and on the Sea Islands. Uh, I'm hoping to get back out there very, very soon. Um, so I can visit family and just kind of like. You know, take it all in and, uh, say hello to the ancestors, um, on that land.
It's pretty powerful. Thanks again for listening to the podcast, and don't forget to check out our third and final bonus episode installment about. The Tennessee legislature. So much has happened since Terry and I recorded that episode. Uh, but the roots for the anti-democratic machinations that you see in Tennessee are very much grounded in what happened during reconstruction and specifically, um, how things went down in the State House of Georgia and at the local level, um, and the county level rather, um, in McIntosh County. So check out episode three of our bonus series and. Thanks for listening.
Curious Roots is co-produced by Converge Collaborative, a BIPOC workers co-op and artist collective offering creative multimedia service. Is to companies and organizations of all kinds as artists and workers, our practice center's collaboration, solidarity, and equity. We weave together our expressive talents with our labor expertise and lived experiences to provide our partners with project support and informed by the belief that work and labor are sites of creativity, learning, and imagination.
This focus on collaborative imagination flows through every part of our partner process. From co-creating products, software, and websites to audiovisual experiences and more
Curious Roots is co-produced by Converge Collaborative at Moon Shadow Productions. Our theme music is courtesy of Makaih Beats. Please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast on Apple's, Spotify, Stitcher, or however you listen to your podcast. Don't forget to check out curious roots pod.com if you want to learn more about what you've heard.
Big thank you to our producer, pat McMahon. My deepest gratitude to Mr. Wilson Moran and to the community of Harris Neck. Big thank yous to Terry Ward and Adolphus Armstrong of genealogy, and thank you to my relatives who are now with the ancestors as especially Ms. Mary Moran and my grandmother Margaret Baisden White
Thank you all for listening to Curious Roots.