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What’s the story you can’t stop telling? Fran and Bethany are here to help you write, sell, and launch it.
Critically acclaimed authors and bestselling book coaches Fran Hauser and Bethany Saltman are your hosts of Bookbound, the podcast for aspiring nonfiction authors who want to learn how to transform their ideas, expertise, and obsessions into successful books and publishing deals. Fran and Bethany interview accomplished authors who share the strategies and surprises behind their bookbound journeys. These behind-the-scenes conversations will inspire you to claim your own “author-ity” mindset and turn the story you can’t stop telling into a book the world needs to read.
To connect with the hosts and more, go to www.bookboundpodcast.com/
Anna Akbari [00:00:00]:
It's such an intimate partnership, one on one. And that's how I love to work. I love the intensity. It's like therapy. Your creative partners and I find that the depth that you're able to reach in memoir, it’s just different than prescriptive.
Bethany Saltman [00:00:20]:
My name is Bethany Saltman, and I am an author and a best selling book coach.
Fran Hauser [00:00:26]:
And I'm Fran Hauser. I'm an author, a keynote speaker, and a publishing strategist. These how I did it conversations will inspire listeners to claim their own authority mindset and turn the story they can't stop telling into a book the world needs to read.
Bethany Saltman [00:00:41]:
This is Bookbound, the podcast created in partnership with Share Your Genius.
Fran Hauser [00:00:47]:
Welcome to the show, everyone. I'm so excited to introduce you to our guest, Dr. Anna Akbari. She's a sociologist, author, ghost writer, speaker, and former professor at NYU and Parsons School of Design. We're talking to Anna about her third book, a memoir titled There is No Ethan, which details how she and two other highly accomplished women unite to uncover an Internet predator who they all fell for. The book reads like a novel and is absolutely riveting. It's been selected as one of Audible's best books of the year so far. Anna talks with us about how to write a book that readers will want to analyze and recommend to others.
Fran Hauser [00:01:33]:
She also gets into the juicy details of how she developed the organizing principle and structure of the book. Oh, and I also loved hearing about how the role of an author platform often looks very different if you're writing memoir versus prescriptive nonfiction. There are truly so many wonderful and inspiring gems in this interview. So I'll let the conversation do the rest of the talking. Let's dive into our chat with Anna.
Anna Akbari [00:02:02]:
Hey, everyone.
Bethany Saltman [00:02:03]:
We are so excited to be joined by Anna Akbari, the author of There is No Ethan. This incredible book. I read it in one sitting, and I hear I'm not the only one. This is something that people say in the reviews. I'm so excited to talk to you today, and welcome to Bookbound, the podcast.
Anna Akbari [00:02:25]:
Thank you so much for having me.
Fran Hauser [00:02:28]:
Anna, I read it in one sitting, too. I think I told you that. One of my favorite books of the year. It's just so, so good. So congratulations.
Anna Akbari [00:02:37]:
Thank you. Thanks. Well, I'm sure we'll get into this, but when you're in the midst of writing something, you never really know because you're so close to the material. But I had this feeling. I was like, I feel like this is good.
Bethany Saltman [00:02:51]:
Well, I'm so excited to hear more about that. So we like to begin all of our interviews by asking people, when did you know that this was a book? And it's funny, the question is usually, how did you know this was a book and not just your obsession? I might reframe it a little bit and say, how did you know this was a book and not just someone else's obsession?
Anna Akbari [00:03:13]:
You know, when this was all unfolding back in 2011, I hadn't written a book. I'd written my dissertation, and that was the closest thing to a book that I that I'd written. And I didn't have a literary agent at the time. I didn't even know how that world worked. But I was writing a lot. I was actually working on putting something together. And writing was very much a focus of my life.
Anna Akbari [00:03:41]:
And I just had this feeling that this was a book, but I also thought it was some kind of film or limited series. Like, I had a vision for this from a storytelling perspective while we were in the throes of it.
Bethany Saltman [00:03:58]:
Amazing. So then, can you walk us through a little bit of your writerly journey, then? So it sounds like this happened in 2011. You had a sense that it was a book or some kind of a story for the page, and then you went ahead and got an agent and wrote two other books, and then you got back to this book. So if you could just give us a little chronology that I think would be really interesting.
Anna Akbari [00:04:21]:
It's interesting because it became an article instead of a book, because that was more accessible to me. And there was a purpose in the article more so than just the storytelling. And we wanted to make this person stop. And we felt like it wasn't until the alias, in conjunction with their name, was out in the public sphere, because we knew that people were googling this name to try and say, who is Ethan Schumann? We wanted that to be kind of cemented. So the article was serving an important purpose for us as victims. Interestingly, the Atlantic was supposed to publish it, and they chickened out at the last minute, which was really upsetting and ended up running in the Observer. That's a whole other story. But that was part of the writerly journey as well, thinking, okay, it's going to go in this specific kind of publication, and now it's going to something different.
Anna Akbari [00:05:21]:
Then I got an agent, and her thought was, oh, this article has to go viral or it won't be a viable book. Now, I don't know if what you say to your writers, but I say, that's BS. First of all, I have lots of thoughts about that, and I'm no longer with that agent. They gave me a shot when I was an unpublished writer, and I'm always grateful for that. But we had a different vision for a lot of what the possibilities of my writing projects were. So I worked on other projects, and then when I eventually moved over to my now agent, back in the end of 2021, I gave her, like, four or five different projects that I thought I might want to work on. And this was the one that she said, this is the project, and now is the time for this story.
Fran Hauser [00:06:17]:
Because it's been 13 years since this experience happened. I mean, we're in 2024. And I was saying to Bethany earlier, like, were you journaling the whole time? I mean, there are so many details in this book. And by the way, I've known you for probably around 15 years, and you told me this story, like, as this experience was happening to you, you were telling me about it, and now reading, like, all of the details in the book, it's just such an incredible story. So all of these details, like, were you writing this whole time?
Anna Akbari [00:06:55]:
I was writing some things because, well, first of all, all the correspondence of course was digitally recorded. That was between me, between British Anna and Gina. So every scrap of correspondence. And then we were communicating with other people about this, as well. And then in the build up to the article, I don't remember how many words the article ended up being, but we had had four times that because it really was a book. There was just so much to say about it and to analyze. And so I had accumulated a lot of material. And can I tell you that we ended up trimming 20,000 words out of my first draft of my manuscript.
Anna Akbari [00:07:45]:
And that was me restrained.
Bethany Saltman [00:07:49]:
I believe it.
Anna Akbari [00:07:50]:
There was so much to say. When I was having publisher meetings at first, you know, I think people were like, okay, is there enough material, love?
Fran Hauser [00:07:59]:
Did you write a proposal for this book?
Anna Akbari [00:08:02]:
Yes.
Fran Hauser [00:08:03]:
So just like your standard nonfiction book writing process.
Anna Akbari [00:08:07]:
Okay, very standard. It was lengthy. It went through several iterations, and originally, the original proposal that I had envisioned with my agent was more of a sociological analysis, you know, a case study. And when I met with my publisher, who bought it, they immediately wanted it to be a memoir with my sociological backgrounds… . And it's interesting point, a few outlets, individuals have sort of questioned that. But what I would say is that I think my publisher, my editor, made the right choice, because at some point, you have to choose how do you want this book to be read? And while a more extensive sociological analysis would have been very interesting. Would it have been as bingeable of a book had I been taking you out of the story, every single chapter to analyze things, it just would have been a very, very different book.
Bethany Saltman [00:09:06]:
That is so interesting. I think our listeners are going to be really interested in that because so many people are coming to a book project very much like yours. They have an area of authority and have a story to tell, and they're trying to find the form. I have a lot of questions about that. I first want to just get really granular, if you don't mind, about the agent process, because people are so intrigued by this, and really, you know, it's such an emotional journey for people. You had one agent, and she said, if this doesn't go viral, it's not going to happen. You parted ways, and then you found another agent without a specific project, but with just a lot of ideas, because some people. Some agents really only want to work on a project.
Bethany Saltman [00:09:52]:
Other agents want to work on a career. It sounds like you found the latter.
Anna Akbari [00:09:57]:
They both saw me in terms of the breadth of rank, that they felt that I could produce long term rather than rest whatever I was coming to them with. And I'm forever grateful that they could see that in me. And especially, you know, my first agent, who, as I said, took a chance on me and really said, you know, I think you have several books in you. And I had come to her with a different sort of draft of the manuscript and a lot of writing and also coming at it as an academic and as a sociologist, and I think that both of them saw that as a real asset. The other thing is, they both understand that getting your work published is very hard. And I wanted to write, and so both of them have plugged me in from a ghost writing perspective, as well. And I think that's key because that's also money in their pocket. So it's kind of like a two for one.
Anna Akbari [00:10:58]:
And then when you add on the sociological expertise, which from a ghost writing perspective can be seen as a real asset, to collaborate with someone, I think they thought, okay, I'm going to take a chance on this person, and then we'll see what they produce.
Bethany Saltman [00:11:15]:
Got it. That's very interesting.
Anna Akbari [00:11:17]:
Thank you.
Fran Hauser [00:11:18]:
I have so many questions on the book itself, like the title, how you came up with the title. So maybe if you can talk about that, Anna. And also the organizing principle for the book, like the fact that it's in these five parts, because it's really hard to figure out the structure sometimes that can be one of the hardest parts. So talk to us a little bit about the title and the organizing principle.
Anna Akbari [00:11:47]:
The title always played with the name, and I was especially interested in the fact that Ethan and I won't spoil anything for your readers, but there's a similarity in the names. Naming is very significant in this book. And so I was playing around with initials. And as you know, this book is very much about blending fact and fiction and blurring the two and kind of disorienting people by doing that. And so I was originally playing around with that, and then my publisher came back with the sort of, There is No Ethan as a variation on it, and I really liked it. And I was still in the writing process, and it became really apparent that that was this phrase that was sort of coming up again and again in the manuscript, and it just made perfect sense. And then we knew that the subtitle needed to be explanatory in some way.
Fran Hauser [00:12:55]:
And Anna, just so everyone knows, the subtitle is amazing. It's, How Three Women Caught America's Biggest Catfish.
Bethany Saltman [00:13:05]:
So clear.
Anna Akbari [00:13:07]:
Very clear. And there were moments, especially early on, when I was still envisioning it in a more sociological, academic perspective, that it was more of a theoretical subtitle as opposed to something that was a precise description. Two things I've been very happy with this book that is not always the case with other projects is that is the title and the cover. Sometimes you have more or less control over those two things. I don't think people realize this is a collaborative process. And if a publisher buys your book, you get input, but if you're not super famous, you don't always get the last word on everything.
Fran Hauser [00:13:54]:
And it's true. The title and the cover seem to be the two things where there's always, like, the most tension. That's what I've heard from my agent, as well. My agent said once, she's like, that's usually when I have to get involved, like when I have to come back into the process.
Anna Akbari [00:14:11]:
I'm in the process of finishing collaborating on a celebrity memoir that'll be out next year. And we have been trying to finalize the title for seemingly months now. And it has been a really tense process because there's just so much at stake.
Bethany Saltman [00:14:31]:
Well, it's really interesting the way we just finished an Accelerator with 28 women, and we talk about title as the first part is a guiding image, metaphor, or trope. And the second part is a value proposition. It's a promise to the reader, and your title is a perfect example because the trope of There Is No Ethan is the entire book, and it's something that you can really dig into, and it's concrete enough, but it has so much. It's so dynamic. So I just love that. And the cover is brilliant. It's so good.
Anna Akbari [00:15:07]:
They came out with something, and I was actually really thrilled. This was kind of a small thing, but I think your authors might appreciate hearing this. So some of the first people to read your manuscript are actually the cover designers, and other than your editor, maybe your agent, and they already have skin in the game and they're already sort of invested. But these designers, they don't. They have to read all these things. They don't have to like it. And my editor shared with me that they both raved about it, which she noted to me was very rare. And one of them, her sister, happens to be a producer, and she immediately kind of gave her a heads up about the book as well.
Anna Akbari [00:15:56]:
And so this was this, like, small but significant early feedback that they started to pay attention to and get really excited about, you know, because these were neutral people who did not have to. They got paid to design it, but they didn't have to like it.
Bethany Saltman [00:16:11]:
So exciting.
Fran Hauser [00:16:13]:
Let's talk a little bit about organizing principle now. I would love to hear more about that.
Anna Akbari [00:16:18]:
You know, it kind of stems actually back to the original title that I had been playing with. And it was all this idea of, you know, who is Ethan? How do you become Ethan? What defines Ethan? And each section was sort of a progression of that. And I know I'm speaking sort of in the abstract, but this was the original, and it got more abstract as you got to the sort of fifth part where I knew I wanted to kind of throw it back to the reader and say, are we all sort of Ethan Schumann? Are we all living in a world where we're all capable of this, where we are all complicit in building a world and platforms where this type of behavior is rampant? Where do we draw the line? You know, I really wanted those big questions to be the capstone on this very personal narrative. It was always sort of very clear sections. And then once I got into the actual writing of the manuscript, there was a moment where I was playing around with whether or not how much we were going to jump around in time. So that was a big question and how I was going to tell three concurrent, overlapping, but distinct narratives of three different people. So all of that I had to play around with. So after the manuscript was purchased, my editor knew that she wanted me to have a little sort of teaser prologue at the beginning.
Anna Akbari [00:17:56]:
Where we were kind of in the throes of linking up the women and getting close to solving the mystery. So that was the hardest. I don't really ever think I get what I would call writer's block. But at the beginning of a project, sometimes it's that first start. You know, like, where do I begin? I think even after you have this very lengthy proposal, I mean, it's still. My brain just had to halt for a couple of weeks. And then I got that out. And then I knew I just needed to start telling my story.
Anna Akbari [00:18:32]:
And so I focused on that. And then I realized, okay, I think I'm going to move on directly to the other two women. And I wasn't sure if they were each their own separate parts or if they were together. And that's where I came up with the other women. And then again, it just felt very natural that the teaming up would become its own sort of section. What was a little murkier was all of this after that part. So those first three sections, it felt kind of clear to me. And the last section, I knew.
Anna Akbari [00:19:10]:
And so then I had to really think about, okay, there are all these years in between where all this crazy stuff was happening. And where we know this person was still up to their old antics. That took shape. It's like after the climax in some ways, but then also still building towards something. And also leaving the reader in this uncertain place where you're always a little bit ill at ease and you're not quite sure what's coming.
Bethany Saltman [00:19:42]:
So, is that structure different from what you had proposed in the proposal?
Fran Hauser [00:19:48]:
Hi there. Before we continue on with our guest, we'd love to tell you about a special Bookbound opportunity. Starting in October, Bethany and I are hosting a seven week Accelerator program just for you. If you're a female writer, professional entrepreneur, or thought leader who's looking for clarity, confidence, and community as you write and sell your nonfiction book, this is the opportunity for you. You'll leave the program with a dynamic and irresistible book idea, which is essential and usually the hardest part in creating a book proposal that sells. You'll also gain clarity around who you're writing the book for, how to best position the book, and the publishing path that's right for you. The program also gets you access to two game changing tools, an extensive database of indie publishers looking for books just like yours, and our Bookbound ebook on how to write a standout nonfiction book proposal. Our first Accelerator program, which we ran in the spring, received rave reviews from the 28 women who participated, with 100% of them saying they would highly recommend the program to a book bound friend.
Fran Hauser [00:21:07]:
So if you're interested, head to bookboundpodcast.com/accelerator for all the details. The link will be in the show notes, too. We hope you'll join us a little.
Anna Akbari [00:21:20]:
A little bit, because I was thinking of it more thematically in terms of what defines a catfish or someone who does something like this. There were still these parts, and then because I was going to weave the narrative of the story throughout it, but then I also want, I was using more the organizing principle of whether you want to call it the theme of narcissism or the theme of whatever is going to be the focus, and then I would tell the story sections of the story through that. But that got very quickly disrupted after the proposal was purchased. Hence it took me a minute to re-envision, because I did not originally think of this as a memoir. I come at it and maybe this says something about me from a place of who wants to hear about me? Don't they just want to analyze, you know, these things? And so it took me a second to accept that this was a personal story about me.
Bethany Saltman [00:22:26]:
And it sounds like that structure was simpler also.
Anna Akbari [00:22:30]:
It would have been. In some ways, it became more difficult for the reader to follow because there would have been lots of different examples of these things over the course of the story. And so to tell the story in a linear way, but also, you know, highlight these different themes. In a way it was more organized. In a way it was messier, if that makes sense.
Bethany Saltman [00:22:55]:
I love that you use the word play. It was something you had to play with. We talk about that a lot. Like, if we can have a playful mindset, it can be delightful. And then you get to this much more simplified, streamlined place. But it does take a lot of iterating and a lot of play to get there. And we talk also about people who are planners who can just write an outline. And then there are pantsers, people who go by the seat of their pants.
Bethany Saltman [00:23:21]:
Is it true that you discovered the organizing principle by playing with it, or is it something you could have outlined, do you think?
Anna Akbari [00:23:29]:
I think that for certain books, and I've noticed this on books that I've been a ghostwriter and collaborator on as well, sometimes the outline is really important, especially in a business book, I find that the outline is very, very useful. Even there, once you get inside to start writing something, you're like, oh, no, this actually fits in here. And this goes there so I really think it's a hybrid. It's nice to have some elements of structure and a vision for it going in, but to stay really, really open to changing everything.
Fran Hauser [00:24:08]:
So I would love to segue a little bit now to your platform. And, you know, Anna, one of the things that we hear pretty consistently from aspiring authors is how frustrating it could be. You know, when they're meeting with agents and they hear from agents, your platform isn't strong enough. It's not big enough. I'm not going to be able to sell this book for you. How did that play out for you, your platform? Like, what kind of feedback did you get from agents and then eventually from publishers?
Anna Akbari [00:24:41]:
So, for my first book that came out at the end of 2016, you know, it was a completely different book than what I had actually wanted to write. The book that I'd wanted to write back then was more relevant to this one. It was about the sociology of dating and relationships. But I was told that I didn't have a big enough platform for that, and that that's not what I was known for. I still would like to write that book. But what they decided, for whatever reason, this was sort of a thing that was, I think, mostly decided by my agent, but then was reconfirmed by publishers was that since I was also an entrepreneur at the time, that somehow that made more sense. So I thought, okay, well, yeah, I have ideas around that, too, and how you can apply entrepreneurial principles to the way you design your life. It's funny what you're saying about planning versus what you pantsing or whatever, and I am very much a hybrid of that in my life, too.
Anna Akbari [00:25:50]:
Right. I think anyone who gets a PhD has to plan something, but I also. I live a very improvised life. It's very much both of those things. And so that book was a bit about that. And so to go back to the platform thing, you know, for whatever reason, there was this perception there was my platform and this wasn’t. And that was how I was kind of guided in the books that I was permitted to pitch and write.
Fran Hauser [00:26:19]:
That's refreshing.
Anna Akbari [00:26:21]:
Yes, it is. Maybe that's just her style. Maybe that she doesn't refer to that. I always felt that with this book, she had the belief that, a, this was a great story, and, b, that I was a strong enough writer to tell it in a compelling way, and that those two things would get the job done. I think actually forward this to you, Fran. You know, when the publishers were doing their testimonies about the merger, the potential merger, that was going to happen, and they were revealing all these really horrifying stats about which books sell and how few books sell. And one of the stats that really stuck out to me was that Billie Eilish, who has 9 million Instagram followers. So you want to talk about platform? Like, okay, show me a bigger one.
Anna Akbari [00:27:16]:
And I think they said that in the first year, her book sold something like 60,000 copies. And so to me, that is such a testament.
Fran Hauser [00:27:27]:
It's interesting you say that, because I've heard that recently as well with a few other celebrity memoirs that, yeah, they have these huge Instagram followings, but those people that are following them on Instagram don't necessarily want to read a book about their life. Like, they love their music, but it doesn't necessarily translate. The Instagram number of Instagram followers doesn't necessarily translate to book sales. I also do wonder if there's a different approach that agents take between more prescriptive books and memoir. Like, I feel like the other two books that you wrote were more prescriptive, and maybe platform was more important for those books. Whereas with memoir, it's the story that leads. It's the writing, you know? And if it's a compelling enough story, then what you hope is that people are going to read it. They're going to tell their friends.
Fran Hauser [00:28:24]:
I'd be curious to get your thoughts on that. Maybe there's a difference there between those two types of nonfiction.
Anna Akbari [00:28:29]:
I absolutely think there is. And I remember my first agent always saying that memoir is the hardest category because it is pure writing. I mean, essentially, you're writing a novel. It just happens to be true. And it's interesting because I've never thought of myself as a fiction writer. I've never wanted to be a fiction writer. I've always felt firmly in the non fiction space. But now, having written several prescriptives and then worked on several memoir, they are just wildly different.
Fran Hauser [00:29:05]:
Is there one that you enjoy more than the other?
Anna Akbari [00:29:08]:
I have come to really love memoir. It's now my favorite. And the book that I hope to write next is in that category as well. And it's the category that I am enjoying the collaborations the most in, which is a whole other category. And I don't know if you work with people in the ghostwriting and collaboration space, but it's such an intimate partnership, one on one, and that's how I love to work. I love the intensity. It's like therapy, your creative partners. And I find that the depth that you're able to reach in memoir is just different than prescriptive.
Fran Hauser [00:29:54]:
Well, because that's what makes the book relatable. Right. If it's just like, here's the advice and the tips and the techniques and the strategies, it's not going to land as well. So you're right. There's always that personal storytelling piece.
Bethany Saltman [00:30:08]:
It's so difficult, but it's also, in a sense, more accessible, because if you're an amazing writer and you can tell an incredible story, you don't necessarily need the same platform. It's almost more like a novel in that sense.
Anna Akbari [00:30:24]:
It's interesting because I watched both with my own projects, things that I've ghost written in other projects. Sometimes people can get all the biggest media hits, and it doesn't move the needle. Like, really thinking about what sells books. And I honestly think to a certain extent, yes, if your book can be listed on one of the big book clubs, that does matter. It's been sort of vetted, and there's just a huge number of people that are going to auto opt in at that point. And so that absolutely matters. But for the rest of the media hits, I think they certainly help a bit. But more than anything, it's just, it has to be a great story.
Anna Akbari [00:31:09]:
People have to want to talk about it, and there's just no amount of followers that can substitute for that.
Fran Hauser [00:31:17]:
Right. And recommend it. That's what you need. You need people recommending it to their friends. Like, that is such a big part of it. But I do have to say, Anna, the New York Times book review was so incredible. Like, I was so proud when I read that review. Can I read just a couple of lines from it, because I have it right here.
Anna Akbari [00:31:38]:
Yeah.
Fran Hauser [00:31:39]:
Okay. This is so good. I did not expect to be shocked by There is No Ethan online. Deception has become so ubiquitous that it's boring. But the twists and turns in Anna Akbari's book are outrageous. I read it in one sitting, then spent days recounting her story to anyone who would listen, unable to shake off my indignation on behalf of the author and her fellow victims. So even the New York Times reviewer is saying that they were repeating the story to everybody. And I found the same thing.
Fran Hauser [00:32:15]:
Like, after I read your book, I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm telling everybody about it.
Anna Akbari [00:32:20]:
Because you want to analyze it, you want to say, you know, can you believe this happened? Why do you think they did it? And a couple weeks later, this past week ago, they ran it again. You know, the morning newsletter that they do on, on a Sunday? Someone forwarded it to me, I was like, oh, my God. Like, I thought that had. That had already happened. We were super excited. And then that came again, and it was. It was really thrilling, and I really feel like that was, they must get forwarded a billion books. And so the fact that she connected with it and couldn't stop thinking about it again, no platform, no sort of media spin is going to ensure that.
Bethany Saltman [00:33:06]:
I love what you said about if people want to analyze it. That's such a good tip. It's very, very interesting. So what do you think? Since you work on a lot of books, what makes a story analyzable, repeatable? We talk about when we're helping people develop their own book idea. What's this story you can't stop telling? What is the story that the reader won't stop repeating?
Anna Akbari [00:33:32]:
I think there's an element of familiarity, so there has to be something relatable. Readers want to see and recognize some element of themselves in the story, the character. But then there also has to be something new and fresh and different about it. And I think it's how you merge those two things. And then the analysis part is just, you know, okay, for instance, there have been, I don't know how many seasons of the show Catfish, but they're not becoming books, and people aren't feeling compelled to analyze it. Is it because the stories aren't being told in a certain way, or is it because those are different stories? I mean, that is up for debate in and of itself. But I think the beauty of memoir is that it's always about someone or some small collection of people's lives. And lives are inherently pretty mundane, and yet we’re such complex creatures.
Anna Akbari [00:34:32]:
And so when you enter that complexity from a new narrative, from a new vantage point, and you say, how is humanity expressing itself in this particular context? What are the influences? Can I relate to that? Have I had a similar experience? So I'll give this example of this book is I certainly felt that people would relate to the exhaustion of online dating, the confusion around it. What I hadn't fully appreciated until the early readers started reading it is that women in particular, who had never online dated but had had toxic relationships, were really connecting with this book, because one spoiler is, Ethan is not the nicest boyfriend, and women would sort of bashfully say, ugh, I read this, and it reminded me… so painful because it reminded me so many relationships that I had in the past. And, you know, of course there are people that blame, and how can anyone stay in those? But, you know, that's another layer for analysis and for personal connection.
Fran Hauser [00:35:45]:
This needs to be a documentary. It needs to be a film. It needs to be a limited series. It needs to be something on screen. I mean, it's so perfect.
Anna Akbari [00:35:53]:
We are definitely working toward getting to that place.
Fran Hauser [00:35:58]:
Great.
Bethany Saltman [00:35:58]:
I'd love if you have one pissy piece of advice for aspiring authors listening to this podcast.
Anna Akbari [00:36:06]:
You know, one of the things that I always ask the authors that I collaborate with and that they don't usually offer up on their own is, why do you want to write this book, and how do you want it to serve you once it's out in the world? Are you trying to make money on this book? Are you trying to open up a new career path? Do you want a speaking platform? And so I think getting really clear about that, that's another sort of organizing principle. You know, if you know that you want to give speeches and you want us to be prescriptive, you know, you might also need to know that speakers bureaus are having a really hard time selling people who have anything that's less than super positive right now. That is just a reality. I don’t think that's a great reality, but that's what corporates want. And, Fran, I'm sure you know this world really, really well, and so if that's your vision, you need to keep that in mind when you're starting to write.
Fran Hauser [00:37:17]:
It's such great advice. It also affects your whole publishing journey. Like, your why, right, it might affect the publishing path that you go down, whether it's traditional publisher or hybrid or self publish. I think so often, people just kind of skip over that question of, what is your why? How do you want this book to serve you and to serve the world? Like, it's such an important question and sometimes a really hard one to answer.
Anna Akbari [00:37:49]:
I really believe there is this perception that if you can sit still long enough to vomit out words, that someone big will publish your book, and that book will be everywhere, including every airport bookstore.
Fran Hauser [00:38:07]:
Yeah, it's like this. Like, build it, and they will come.
Anna Akbari [00:38:09]:
It minimizes how difficult it is for so many people to think like that. And, you know, I have collaborated with several people who just completely took for granted that they would need an agent, that a traditional publisher wouldn't think that they're brilliant, and that this was the idea that the world needed, and that they would take a chance on them and give them a six figure advance, and that this book would be everywhere. I mean, these are very hard conversations. If it doesn't say, a celebrity through my agent and it's someone else that comes to me. I always give them that hard truth to start with. And I let them know that because if they're clear about what they want, it isn't necessarily better for them to go through that incredibly painful process of being rejected. That's going to slow this project getting to the people that they want.
Fran Hauser [00:39:08]:
It's years, it's time, it's energy, it's money. Writing a book is a big investment on all three of those counts. Anna, we could talk to you honestly all day. You are so amazing. This book. We could not love it more. And we're so happy for its success. It was just named one of Audible's best books of the year so far.
Fran Hauser [00:39:31]:
So congratulations on that. Let our listeners know, please, like, what's the best way to stay connected with you and to follow you?
Anna Akbari [00:39:40]:
Well, they can learn more about me than they ever want to on my website, which is just annaakbari.com or I would say they can find me on Instagram is the social media platform that I'm most active on and that's just my name @annaakbari. And so either of those would be where they can get in touch.
Bethany Saltman [00:40:02]:
I want all of our listeners to buy and read this book and study it.
Anna Akbari [00:40:05]:
You know what I will just add as one last thing is that I also narrated the Audible book. I think that people need to understand that so many people read by listening now. And sometimes the Audible book is going to be the most significant part of your hardcover, paperback, ebook and audio. I really, really think there's a huge shift to that. So pay attention to that.
Fran Hauser [00:40:38]:
Yeah, I love that advice. Listening to books has become a big part of people's lives because it's just really easy to tuck it in. You know, if you're driving, if you're cooking, if you're doing laundry, I mean, what? Right? I mean, it's just really easy to integrate it into your life that way. I have friends that that's the only way they read books is through listening. So that's great, great advice. Enjoy Vienna, good luck with the rest of the book tour and launch.
Anna Akbari [00:41:06]:
Thank you so much.
Bethany Saltman [00:41:10]:
Thank you for joining us on Bookbound.
Fran Hauser [00:41:12]:
If you like what you heard, please subscribe and rate and review us on, on your favorite podcast listening platform.
Bethany Saltman [00:41:19]:
Please visit us bookboundpodcast.com for more on us and how we work with authors.