Self Matters

In our inaugural episode of "Self Matters," we had the pleasure of hosting Dr. Sotiris Posporelis. As a liaison neuropsychiatrist at the Maudsley in London, Dr. Pospo has been at the forefront of mental healthcare for decades. He shared with us how his childhood in Greece and his initial fascination with becoming a doctor were instrumental in paving his career path. He expressed his awe at how one cubic millimetre of the brain is a chaotic yet beautiful mystery, emphasising how far we are from fully understanding it. Dr. Pospo’s passion extends beyond clinical practice to teaching and sharing knowledge. He wants to do more than just educate; but foster interdisciplinary collaboration among mental healthcare professionals worldwide, transcending cultural and systemic differences. When asked how he would improve mental health care in the UK, Dr. Pospo emphasised the need for clinician-led systems. He believes that giving power back to clinicians who see patients daily could help mend the fragmented, overly complex healthcare systems in the UK. On a global scale, Dr. Pospo acknowledges the vast inequalities in mental health care but remains hopeful.

00:00 Introduction to Self Matters Podcast 
00:48 Dr. Sotiris Posporelis: Journey to Neuropsychiatry 
04:26 The Fascination with the Human Brain 
06:56 The Impact of a Life-Altering Accident 
09:22 Innovations in Psychiatry and Teaching
10:38 Bridging Clinical and Academic Worlds
12:20 Innovations in Grand Rounds 
17:40 Balancing a Multifaceted Life 
20:36 Challenges and Future of Mental Health Care Systems 
26:56 Global Perspective on Mental Health 
29:19 Closing Thoughts and Reflections

Creators & Guests

Host
Charlie Wells
CEO & Founder of HelloSelf
Guest
Sotiris Posporelis
Consultant Liaison Neuropsychiatrist at King's College Hospital, Clinical Neuropsychiatry MSc at IoPPN

What is Self Matters?

The stories from the people shaping the future of mental healthcare.

Charlie: Hello, I'm Charlie Wells and welcome to Self Matters, the podcast where we interview the people shaping the future of mental health.

Charlie: Today's guest is Dr. Sotiris Posporelis, who's a clinical neuropsychiatrist, at the Maudsley in London. He's been shaping the future of mental health care for the last few decades. I'm delighted to have him. He's a high energy, high octane, storyteller. So hopefully we'll hear all about living in Greece, brains, motorbikes, music, being house MD but most importantly, how he looks after himself and how we can create a better mental health system, both in the UK and the whole world. It's great to have you on the podcast. Let's jump in.

Charlie: Thanks for joining us, Dr. Pospo.

Pospo: Hey, Charles. Impressed with your Greek, I have to say. You know, nobody can really pronounce the name truly.

Charlie: We're going to start off the story behind Dr. Pospo? You obviously grew up in Greece but how did you find your way to becoming a consultant neuropsychiatrist in London.

Pospo: Yeah I mean, to be honest, I'm the last person to give advice about career paths, because, you know, mine is, you know, all over the place. It was certainly fun, you know, I gotta say, but, uh, at the same time, it was like a maze. Uh, you know, going round and round, you know, finding other interests, you know, along the way. I wouldn't be, you know, what I am now, uh, if I didn't have all these other, you know, branches of my life, uh, keeping me sane, you know, if you like. Uh, because, you know, I like it, you know, a bit mixed. I always wanted to become a doctor. That's the interesting fact. Uh, and everyone in my family was trying to convince me otherwise.

Uh, because, you know, it's a long career and uh, you know, pretty tiring, I have to say. And, you know, long, long studies. Uh, so nobody, first of all, I don't have anyone in the family that's a doctor. Right? So I'm the first one. Really, really early on, you know, I didn't have any other interests. So for me, my life was always, you know, music and, uh, and, and medicine, nothing else. I studied medicine in Greece. Uh, then at some point around the fourth year, I always wanted to do something with the brain, right? Uh, so it was, for me, it was either neurology, neurosurgery, or psychiatry.

So there was only these three things. Neurosurgery, I would have killed many people along the way because these things really are completely useless. So, you know, early on, I decided this is definitely not for me. Uh, plus my attention span, it's really bad. So, you know, I wouldn't, wouldn't be able to make it.

And I was always between neurology, you know, and psychiatry. So around the fourth year, I had a really, uh, really good, uh, you know, neurology professor and, you know, it attracted me even more. It made me feel that, okay, this is, you know, uh, what I want to do.

2004, I had a massive accident, uh, you know, with, uh, with my motorbike, you know, I love speed as well. So everything just got, you know, rearranged in my life and reshuffled, right? So I had to take a break for a long time. Couple of years until I walk back, you know, properly. Uh, loads of operations and stuff, really boring things.

But, uh, the thing is that, you know, I took a step back from everything, uh, and the thing that kept me sane was music. Uh, so essentially, although medicine was always a bit, you know, uh, up when it comes to professionally, you know, if you like, music started taking, uh, you know, the, the upper hand. And for many, many years up until I was 30, uh, I wouldn't believe it, but you know, I had the number one radio show, uh, you know, back home, uh, you know, for, for a few years, uh, and then I decided that I'm having too much fun.

Uh, so, you know, I need to stop that. I need to torture myself. I need to go back to medicine. Uh, because obviously, you know, there was a bit of me that was missing. All right. And the reality is that, you know, if you leave it, with medicine, if you don't get updated and you know, and, uh, you don't get in the loop, you know, with what's happening, uh, essentially you're going to lose it.

So one day I just, you know, quit and moved to England to pursue, you know, both, you know, my hobbies, if you like, you know, both medicine, uh, but also music, so, you know, I was DJing, and I still have a record label, and, uh, and I don't think that in other parts of the world, it would be as easy if you like, you know, as in London, so being able to work in, you know, you know, world renowned institutions, train in, you know, in institutions like that.

So I trained at the Maudsley, then I left around 2012, went for one and a half year in Hopkins across, across the ocean, uh, you know, did some research there and then I came back, finished my training here, and you know, here I am.

Charlie: I love your story. Thank you so much for sharing it. You're certainly the only sort of psychiatrists slash record label mogul slash DJ I know.

There's like some areas I'd really like to kind of dig into a little bit deeper. You said it really early, you go into medicine, you were really interested in brains, I guess, why have brains always fascinates you because most doctors want to fix someone's leg or become a surgeon.

Like, why was it, people's heads that became interesting?

Pospo: I mean, you know, when it comes to organs, for example, who wants to spend a bloody lifetime, you know, checking the thyroid? I mean, I mean, don't get me wrong. I love the thyroid. I'm sorry, thyroid. I'm really sorry, thyroid. And we do know that there is, again, a really clear link with thyroid, uh, and of course, mental health.

Uh, but the reality is that, you know, as Luria used to say, you know, psychiatry is the last romantic of the neurosciences, right? Uh, I mean, even if there was a really recent, I think it was last week or something like that, there was a publication in Nature, so one of the most, you know, prestigious, if you like, uh, you know, scientific journals, and essentially what they did, they, uh, they visualized one cubic millimeter, you know, of someone's brain, it's chaos, it's absolutely beautiful, it's chaotic, and then you're like, how the hell, you know, this beautiful thing makes so much sense, it allows us, you know, to integrate everything from around, and, you know, and function, and feel, and think, and behave, and all these things, you uh, when you see it, it's like, it's like mad, and it's just one cubic millimeter.

Uh, so for anyone that sees that part, you know, even if you see just one, this image is just. It's just amazing. And, and also it's so, it's such a beautiful mystery, right? We're really far away from, you know, fully understanding, uh, you know, how the brain, you know, works and function and allows us to enjoy life, you know, um, as it is.

So, yeah, it's just fascinating. I love the mystery. I mean, you know, it's always, of course, you know, the other more cliche part of psychiatry, if you like, which I have to say that, you know, being a neuropsychiatrist, I mean, a liaison neuropsychiatrist You know, I do get loads of really beautiful histories and fascinating life journeys of my patients.

Uh, but it's really fast and this is what I love, of course, you know, being a liaison, you know, neuropsychiatrist. We're really privileged. To have the opportunity, you know, to, uh, to essentially, you know, catch a glimpse, you know, in someone's, you know, life, uh, it's just, you know, fascinating. And all this comes from in here.

Charlie: It is brilliant, isn't it? I mean, I guess we have, we have different trainings. But as a neurobiologist, I spent a year studying a single neuron, right? And still we don't understand how a single neuron works but you put literally billions of them together and we get consciousness. How on earth does that happen?

It's extraordinary.

For those who don't know I you know my story I had a brain hemorrhage about ten years ago but I always find it interesting you meet people who have these kind of transformative sort of injury moments of their lives it kind of creates a really interesting moment for reflection and sort of introspection about what you really thinks important. So, you know, you mentioned it that you had your motorbike accident and, and a couple of years to kind of rebuilding yourself, I guess, how has that affected the way that you make decisions and the choices you've made in your life?

Pospo: , The first thing I was thinking about, okay, when, when I'm going to fix my legs and all that stuff to go back in the mountains, start snowboarding.

Uh, you know, obviously this was, you know, maybe a knee jerk reaction, right? Um, and as time went by, I did have time to, to reflect and there was times that, uh, you know, it hit hard when you survive an accident like that, uh, or a big trauma in your life, right? So the, the first thing that kicks in essentially is the survivor thing.

Like you get, I made it. You know, this makes you happy oh phew, and then you try to make fun of it. Uh, but then you realize that, you know, the recovery process is the, uh, the difficult bit. Surviving, of course, is the most important thing, uh, because it gives you, if you like, you know, a second lease in life.

Uh, but hardly ever people talk about, you know, how difficult the journey after that is and how important it is to have, you know, people around you, be it, you know, family, friends, you know, professionals, uh, that can support, you know, in all this.

I remember the first Christmas, because this happened in May, right? Uh, the first Christmas, I wasn't feeling it. I wasn't feeling that it was Christmas. It's as if my clock just stopped there in around, you know, May, June time and because then it was full of hospitals and rehabilitation and all that stuff.

So when Christmas came I was like, what is happening? I couldn't feel it and this took a few years to be honest until I you know, my internal clock, you know catches up, you know with live events around and so in that sense, I think it did affect me

Charlie: And then all of those choices ended up with you being a kind of neuropsychiatrists, uh, as you said, I love the way you kind of quipped. I just moved to London and decided to study at the Maudsley like everyone wants to study the Maudsley. It's extraordinary place to study and then popped over to the US to the hopkins institute like these are all ivy league institutions where you can learn great craft and meet amazing people and it's turned you into this sort of extraordinary kind of consultant neuropsychiatrist

Charlie: You're quite passionate about teaching and sharing your knowledge and you've been really involved in grand rounds so, could you tell us a little bit about how you're trying to kind of change the system and spread the knowledge?

I don't know if, you know, any single person can just, you know, show up and change the system but I do feel that, you know, every one of us, you know, just by trying to make small changes, you know, in their, you know, surroundings, the immediate surroundings. So, you know, how you interact with your trainees or how you interact with your medical students.

Pospo: So all these things create, you know, a beautiful culture. So if each and every one of us, you know, pay attention to the little details of our everyday life, uh, and clinical, professional, and everything, you, you know, you name it. Uh, I do feel that in the grand scheme of things, it can bring change.

One thing I learned, uh, from my stay at Hopkins, right? Uh, so, disclaimer, I was never an academic. Uh, so, uh, so the thing that it was good about me, it was, you know, if I liked something, I would just put myself out there and say, well, yeah, I want to do this.

Pospo: I never said I'm amazing or whatever. I never, I never went down that line. I said, you know, that's really interests me. I have some time to devote, uh, and I want to learn. Are you happy with that? And this is how it all went. I had a discussion with Akira. So Professor Sawa, you know, at Hopkins, who, you know, kindly agreed to have me there.

And I remember that coming from a clinical background, uh, you know, being immersed in this, you know, really high tech, you know, basic neurosciences and neuroimaging, uh, that they were doing, you know, uh, across, across the ocean. It was fascinating. It was daunting at the same time, but really fascinating. The thing that was, up to some extent, missing, the big gap, you know, between clinical life and academic life, right?

And how, you know, these beautiful bright minds, they, they, they work to understand, how the brain works and how they can support, you know, our patients, you know, being with innovative treatments or diagnostics and all that stuff but without having direct access and, you know, how does it feel, you know, to talk with someone who has a delusion?

So how does it feel to hear, you know, voices all the time? How does it feel to be depressed or anxious? Uh, and, you know, many times, you know, I would read like really, you know, really highly impactful papers uh, but it was just that the researcher was doing a massive leap of faith I wanted to, you know, to bridge, you know, the gap, you know, between clinicians, you know, and academics and this is how I started, uh, you know, this series that still happens, you know, takes place, you know, at Hopkins that essentially was bringing in the same room, you know, clinicians, uh, and scientists, uh, , so one week it would be a clinician, uh, that talks about a clinical case and then the other week it would be a scientist.

They say, oh, I'm studying this. So what's your opinion? What am I doing wrong? And essentially they, they got to know each other, and it was fascinating because, you know, these people used to walk in the same corridor, uh, but , it was different parallel worlds, uh, and this was something that, you know, I was really proud about, and it really made a difference, it also made a difference to how I approached, you know, science as well, and, you know, even coming back here, uh, so that was, you know, a big thing.

Now, the grand rounds that you mentioned, this is a different thing. So the, so the Maudsley ground rounds is, uh, you know, one of the most iconic and historic events at the Maudsley that it has been happening since forever, right? So back in the day, it would be, uh, let's say, a big professor or a big clinician, uh, that would, you know, discuss a case. Sometimes they would bring the patient, uh, and then there would be, you know, many, uh, trainees, many junior doctors, uh, just observing and trying to learn from, uh, essentially, a more fancy way of bedside teaching, right? So, so what we're doing now with the ground runs obviously is, you know, slightly different. So essentially I'm inviting, you know, clinical teams from all around, uh, you know, the Maudsley, uh, the Maudsley obviously it's a hospital, but it's also a trust.

So that covers, you know, many, many different hospitals in Southeast London. Uh, so I invite clinical teams to present the life journeys of patients that stuck with them, uh, and this is either, you know, because, uh, there were like really, you know, difficult to treat cases, uh, or, uh, if there was something that has to be learned, it may be that, you know, patients are still open, you know, to that caseload that they're just, you know, want to understand how they can help them better.

We do have many times, you know, patients or their families, you know, attending, uh, and sharing, you know, their life experiences, you know, with us. This is beneficial both for the teams, uh, but also, of course, you know, for the families, because, you know, we also have, uh, you know, experts, you know, from all their respective fields, uh, and that, you know, they give their opinion after they hear, you know, about the case, about, you know, what we could do better, uh, if there is something, obviously, you know, more, you know, that we can try.

And a few times in the year, I invite clinical teams from other parts of the world so, so far I had obviously from the States, you know, from, uh, from Germany, from Chile, from Mexico, uh, from, you know, Iceland was the last one. Um, and this is just to show, you know, how different can be the practice, of psychiatry in different parts of the world.

You know, how culture can affect, you know, the way, you know, psychiatrists practice. Or even the most practical thing, right? Money. Uh, so the availability, you know, of, you know, funding and services in different parts of the world. I mean, it's fascinating it's, you know, sometimes it's completely different.

Charlie: I love this idea of the grand rounds. I think the idea that you've taken what was a kind of in traditional follow the consultant around and take notes and really started thinking about it on a kind of global scale.

I love the idea of bringing fascinating minds with different backgrounds and skill sets to look at a single case and from lots of different angles. And then the fact that you've taken that to understand that we're all humans with brains, but, cultures affects our practices, resources affect our practices, knowledge is not evenly distributed, I think it's a really clever idea. I can imagine you like this house MD orchestrating this kind of, uh, this global world of psychiatry and psychology.

What's your proudest moment from ground rounds?

Pospo: One fascinating one, uh, it was a presentation that was completely led, you know, by one of the patients.

Uh, so, so this was a really humbling experience. So this was, a patient that, you know, had a really long, you know, inpatient admission, so in one of the psychiatric hospitals. Uh, and we're talking about, you know, you know, a few months. You wouldn't be even able to think, you know, before this admission that at some point he would be able to go out and talk, you know, to a whole lecture theatre, you know, about his experience.

He was, you know, so disabled, you know, by his mental health difficulties uh, but having him there, and obviously no credit to me, right, so I wasn't his treating but, you know, having him there, you know, after this, you know, long and difficult journey, you know, of, of recovery uh, you know, just, you know, sharing their experience and you could see he would just glow. Uh, this was, you know, a really beautiful moment, a really beautiful moment. I can't even, I can't even think, you know, how, you know, the, you know, the treating team was feeling, you know, there, I could see they're all had smiles up to here. And the other beautiful time was really recent actually, it was, um, it was last year because last year was the a hundred years we're celebrating a hundred years since the Maudsley, you know, uh, opened its doors. I approached uh, retired clinicians from all around the world that trained at the Maudsley, we're talking about people that were, you know, when I approached them, they were in Australia, they were in the States, uh, in Switzerland, uh, Africa.

So from all around the world, uh, and it was fascinating. I mean, you know, one guy was like in his nineties. The spark in his eyes. He couldn't take enough of psychiatry, uh, and, and, and the passion and the love that, you know, he was sharing, you know, with all of us.

Uh, and you know, sometime, you know, we, we tend to forget, you know, all the, you know, the beauty of, of being a clinician. Whoever has the time or the access to, uh, to medical records, you know, from back in the 60s or 50s or, you know, even, even earlier.

Uh, and see, you know, how beautifully, you know, clinicians will talk about their patients. Uh it was just, just amazing. It was just like a, like, like a novel. But just reading it, it was just you had the patient in front of you. Uh, but now everything is, you know, operational, operationalized and, you know, bullet points.

And obviously, you know, we see, you know, way more patients. Uh, there's not enough of us. So, yeah, everything becomes more, if you like, you know, boring and, you know, to the point.

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Charlie: You, you're living your life at full pace. You are DJing, running record labels.

You're doing grand rounds, you're teaching, you are consultant neuropsychiatrist. What do you do for you? How do you ensure that yourself is at the top of its game the whole time when making these kind of big calls?

Pospo: I talk to my mom every morning! Because I cycle from Hackney down to, to South London, right? Uh, so I have, my phone just there and there's a ride, you know, I talk to her every morning and trust me, it's liberating. I can nag to my mom, you know, forever. So I'm becoming 46 in August, right? And I feel again like in this beautiful cocoon and I feel secure and all that stuff. I mean, you know, I'm so honestly, I'm so lucky uh, to have, you know, obviously my dad, if he hears me, dad, I as well. You know, uh, he's also on the phone. Don't worry. Uh, you know, but joking aside, you know, keeping a balance, it's again, I know it's cringe and all that, but it's, it's so difficult.

You keep on saying, keep a balance and all that, but then life is just a tsunami. It just comes. So by the time you say, okay, now everything is under control. No, baby, no baby. This is definitely not under control. And maybe that's the beauty of it, right? Uh, if everything is under control, at least for me, right?

Uh, it becomes, it becomes a bit boring. Uh, but as I said, the thing that keeps me sane, uh, is also that I am trying, uh, to keep other branches of my life open. Maybe I could have achieved, you know, more things, you know, if I was, you know, only, you know, interested in, neuropsychiatry, most probably, uh, but the reality is that I wouldn't be happy.

Uh, so, you know, being so immersed, you know, into the world of music, it definitely keeps me sane, you know, exercising, you know, every morning. So I go to the gym before I come here. Uh, this, this definitely keeps me, uh, you know, sane, you know, as sane as you can be. We all have, you know, ups and downs. We all have times that we say, what the hell? You know, just give me a break.

Uh, and keeping a balance, uh, it's about, you know, appreciating, you know, these moments and being able to reflect. Keeping a balance, you know, by no means does it mean that, uh, everything is fine. Uh, keeping a balance doesn't mean that you're not going to have your down days or your anxious moments. You know, or being uncertain about, you know, I am doing the right thing.

Charlie: I love your description of balance. So many people look for kind of work life balance as if they've just gotta get it right the whole time, right? But I think this idea of, it's almost having somewhere else you can put your energy, 'cause if you're finding being a psychiatrist hard that day, music can give you that energy back, and so rather than it just being like everything to be equal, it's about like, can you find a way to kind of rebalance your energy the whole time?

Because at some point, something is going to pull you down, so you need something else to pull you up a little bit. It's a lovely idea of keeping a sort of varied self and a whole self.

​Obviously, you've spoken with passion about how supportive you are of the NHS. But the way that we approach mental health broadly, NHS and private in the UK, is probably suboptimal, let's be honest, like it's, we're not managing to serve everyone yet. So this is a difficult question to answer, I know, but let's imagine you had a magic wand, or you were prime minister for the day, or all of a sudden you were appointed the chief psychiatry officer of the country. What would you do to improve the lives of every self in the UK?

Pospo: So this is something we could talk for hours, right? Uh, it's, it's a really sad situation. Uh, so, so as a neuropsychiatrist, so we're part of a, uh, of a national, uh, specialist service, right? So, essentially, because there's not that many of us, you know, around the country, uh, people can be referred from all around.

So, this in itself, it's sad. So, we don't have enough people, uh, to actually care for our own people. And this is, this is really sad. Which means, that for someone to come and see us, needs to go through extremely long waiting lists. I don't know if the answer is, you know, uh, injecting more money or, you know, bringing more people. Nobody can, uh, uh I can really say, right? But I think that giving the power back to the people, uh, would be, you know, one way to go about it. Uh, we're just, you know, trapped and drowning, uh, in really complex and extremely fragmented systems, uh, of the National, you know, Health Service, uh, being directed and managed, uh, by people that have never seen a patient in their lives.

The reality is that you need, you know, to have, you know, people up there, uh that are clinically minded, you know, and oriented. It's like putting me, uh, you know, uh, in charge of the finances of someone's life, right?

I'm completely useless. They're going to be bankrupt like milliseconds. I'm going to go and buy many records. Uh, so I cannot give financial advice, right? Having, you know, clinicians, you know, at the helm, uh, I think it's, uh, it's, it's one way forward. I mean, you know, we can talk, you know, for hours about, you know, the over fragmentation of, uh, NHS, but, you know, too many people, you know, doing the same thing, or even don't knowing about the other people's existence.

I think that changing the, the chain of management and leadership, going to be key. And essentially, you know, bringing back the whole focus, bringing it back to, to the person. I think this is the most important thing because, you know, most times, you know, we lose sight, you know, of what we are there to do, right?

So, and we are just, oh, you know, I have 10 minutes. I have 15 minutes to go to see the GP. And before you even say hi, you're out of the door. Uh, so it shouldn't be like that. And it's not the GP's fault. It's not the GP's fault. It's not the neurologist's fault that has, you know, 20 minutes to see you.

How is it possible, you know, to really absorb, you know, someone's difficulties, you know? At that moment in time, you are the most important person in the world, right? Uh, and the doctor that sees you needs to approach you, you know, that way, needs to have the undivided attention. I know that it sounds really utopic and unrealistic because at the same time, as you're trying to be there for the patient, you have, you know, blips going on, you have, you know, KPIs to follow, you have, you know, another, you know, 15 patients, you know, waiting for you and so many other different things that will go on forever, uh, and this is what makes it so daunting, right?

Charlie: One of the big things we've always believed in is like, how do you make sure things are sort of clinician designed? How do you try and make things to be clinician led?

Do you think there are any kind of big misconceptions, um, within the sort of mental health system or in the way that we treat individuals at the moment?

Pospo: I think that, you know, one of the most important things and one thing that actually, you know, brought, you know, loads of difficulties in, uh, you know, practicing psychiatry and people even, you know, being in tune, you know, with, with their feelings and their emotions and accepting that they may, you know, in fact, you know, have some difficulties with their mental health is this artificial, you know, division between the mind and the brain or the brain and, you know, the rest, you know, of the body.

Uh, and the thing that, you know, this completely artificial division between organic and non organic, uh, it brought so many, so many problems in the practice of psychiatry, you know, over the years. And in fact, you know, perpetuated, you know, the stigma that surrounds, you know, mental health, right? There's nothing non organic, you know, about your mental health.

There's nothing non organic, you know, about your brain. I'm not saying that, you know, what you experience in life, you know, the trauma that you may have, you know, endured, or, you know, your everyday life, your interactions with people, you know, of course they affect you, of course they play a role in how you're going to be feeling.

Uh, but ultimately, you know, all these things, you know, they get distilled and they get processed, you know, you know, up here, right? So the way we think, we feel and behave, uh, has nothing to do with something, you know, you know, non organic. Uh, there's, there's nothing inherently wrong, you know, with somebody that's, you know, that's depressed.

Some people, you know, they, they feel, uh, and this is obviously, you know, because of the mass stigma, right, around, you know, mental health, they don't feel comfortable, you know, you know, sharing this. Uh, I've never had anyone, you know, feeling, you know, ashamed, you know, that they have a headache or a migraine but mental health conditions specifically, uh, you know, because of the various different misconceptions, they don't feel really comfortable sharing that. And, and this has, you know, massive, you know, uh, you know, downstream effects in people's lives, right? Bypassing this artificial division between organic, non organic of your mind and your brain. Uh, it's one way of, you know, moving past, you know, uh, the stigma.

So yes, so mental health conditions, uh, are as any other, uh, you know, condition. So when you talk about it, just feel free to talk about it in the way, the way you complain to your manager that you have a fever today and, you know, sadly, you know, you can't attend work.

Charlie: As you said, it's been tens to hundreds of years where the stigma's been in place because, you know, people were a little afraid of it at the beginning, right? And that, but that's led to sort of every, every sort of bias, even the sort of system bias, funding bias, like how do care systems work?

Like how do you talk about it? How do you help other people? Like it's all of these systems we're kind of, we're playing catch up in the mental health space.

​

Charlie: Trying to solve the problem for the UK is big, but, you know, if you look globally, there's, the vast majority of people have no access to anything, right? As in, there, there is no mental health services in huge parts of the world and there could be up to sort of 1. 8 billion people every year that could benefit from some kind of psychological or psychiatric intervention. How are we going to, as a species tackle mental health? It's always going to have less funding than our other health, body health systems had, because we've been building up body health systems for years. Like, how would you go about approaching advising the rest of the world on what to do and what not to do, having seen it from a global lens?

Pospo: Uh, reality is that there's so much wealth, you know, concentrated, you know, in just a few people that don't care about, you know, what's happening, uh, you know, below them. Uh, so again, if there was, uh, equal distribution of wealth, you know, around the world, I know again, it sounds utopic, I'm not saying that this can happen, you know, overnight understanding the, you know, the vast inequalities, you know, not only, you know, between countries, uh, but even within our society, right? You know, uh, you know, we live in London in one of the, you know, the, the wealthiest, you know, cities in the world. Uh, we have loads of homeless people. We are living in a society that creates, uh, you know, more and more, you know, children in poverty. Uh, so you don't have to look, you know, really far, uh, you know, to see that, you know, change needs to happen. Uh, change needs to happen first, you know, from within, from here, and then, hopefully, it will spread, you know, uh, out as well.

The other thing that I want to mention, you know, before we go mental health is not a hype. You know, psychiatry, you know, is not a hype. Sadly, many people try to jump in the bandwagon of, you know, well being and, you know, mental health, over the years and they have made, you know, millions, uh, by sometimes selling false hope to people, right? Uh, with unproven methods, sometimes even dangerous and risky methods. Uh, and obviously people that are looking, you know, for a hope that are desperate for a solution uh, they're more prone to fall victims of scam.

So look after your mental health. Don't believe the hype, you know, around your mental health and, you know, trust, not blindly trust but you know, trust, you know, professionals that have your best interests, at heart.

Charlie: What a great kind of place to finish. We've started off as a boy on a beach, dreaming of motorbikes in Greece. We've gone through teaching and grand rounds being house MD. We've been to America. We've been to the UK. We've worked out how do you keep yourself?

Well, we've reinvented how to solve the NHS problems and somehow we managed to get to changing world redistribution of wealth and economics. Um, but it all, but it all ends quite rightly on like, you know, how do you make sure you look after your mental health and how do you make sure you trust people who really know what they're doing?

So, Dr. Pospo its been an absolute pleasure having you on. I could have talked to you for hours. I'm sure our listeners would've found this valuable, intriguing, informative so thank you so much for your time. Have a fantastic day.

Speaker: ​ Thanks for listening to Self Matters. We've got new episodes out every two weeks, so make sure you hit follow and subscribe so you never miss an episode. You can listen to us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and of course watch us on YouTube. As always, head over to our social media channels to find out who'll be joining us in the next episode.

If you want to learn more about the stories behind the people shaping the future of mental health care, join us on Thursday the 13th of June at the Whole Self event, as we explore the interconnectedness of mental and physical health.

That's all for today though. See you next time.