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Welcome to “It’s Marketing’s Fault”. If you are a marketer, this phrase is familiar to you. Sometimes deserved, often times not.
Don’t worry, you are among marketers and friends here. Let’s discuss how to do marketing the right way.
As a side note, in episodes 1 through 37, this was Build That Podcast. The goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to use a podcast to grow your business and expand your influence. If you go back and listen to earlier episode (those before November 2023) you will hear that name. Don't worry--it's good content too. :)
Sonja Narvaez [0:00 - 0:27]: So usually they have achieved some kind of high growth. They are focused on really being the face and want to be the face. They don't want to do the inner workings anymore, but they're also not workaholics, to be honest. I mean, God bless you, workaholics. But I like working with people who want something outside of work. So that. That, to me, is actually really important because my mission is all about quality of life. And I'm so sorry, but a lot of workaholics don't really care about that.
Eric Rutherford [0:27 - 1:04]: Welcome to it's marketing's fault, the podcast where we discuss how to do marketing the right way. I'm your host, Eric Rutherford, and I'm excited today because I'm with me, Sonia Narva. She is the founder of Operation Qol and chief ops optimizer for Hungry six figure and Max out seven figure visionaries of service based companies. She's also the host of the Talk Nerdy to me podcast, which has to be one of the best podcast titles ever, like, ever, hands down. Sonja, welcome to the show.
Sonja Narvaez [1:04 - 1:08]: Hi, Eric. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Eric Rutherford [1:08 - 1:31]: Oh, it's my pleasure. I've been excited for this conversation. I was looking forward to going deep, deep into ops, which is one of those so necessary and often, I don't know, maligned. I think it's just sometimes it just gets this unsexy label in companies, but, man, it doesn't work without ops.
Sonja Narvaez [1:31 - 1:52]: Absolutely not. I like to think of it as, like, you know, sometimes brushing your teeth isn't always the funnest, most amazing thing to do. But I don't know if you've had some really fun toothbrushes, some glow in the dark like the toothpaste. Like, there's so many ways to possess it in your like for you that it works out really well.
Eric Rutherford [1:53 - 2:01]: I like that idea. It's like, it can. It can be fun, it can be exciting. It can be engaging. It doesn't just have to be boring.
Sonja Narvaez [2:01 - 2:03]: Yes. No, not at all.
Eric Rutherford [2:03 - 2:19]: I love it. So, let me just start off with. Because I think, at heart, most companies understand they need systems. But what keeps companies. Excuse me. What keeps companies from implementing the systems they most need?
Sonja Narvaez [2:19 - 4:04]: A lot of times I find that companies run by CEO's that are incredibly visionary have a lot of trouble, you know, thinking through, what are those exact systems we're going to need at what times? And then, in addition, what things do we pull in in order to add that structure? So I think one thing that people believe is that operations is, oh, I'm like, have a scheduler. You know, I'm better. Like, I'm good in operations right now, or I have a va. They do all the operation. Like, people kind of believe that they're already sort of operationally adding, like, and adding systems and structure throughout as they grow and learn. But they also are wary of adding too much rigidity. They're afraid of adding too much bureaucracy. Right. Because a lot of people come from corporate, and they're like, no, no, no. I remember having to follow those processes or, like, having to write those checklists or having those performance reviews or, like, having that nine to five schedule. You know, systems are not about, you know, creating. I like to think of it actually, as, when you're thinking about systems, they're not necessarily the roads. And, like, the line in the middle, what are they? Like, the pathways, they're actually the guardrails that are keeping you from jumping over, like, falling off that cliff. So what we create inside of that is different, but we still need those guardrails, or else we'll fall off the cliff. And I don't know if you've ever driven on a mountain that does not have guardrails, but let me tell you, I have been on a bus in the mountains of Costa Rica, and I was pulling out my rosary beads that my grandma gave me.
Eric Rutherford [4:04 - 5:27]: No, it's funny, because I do know what it's like. Maybe not on the mountains, but at least here in Tennessee, I've driven on some roads around some of the hills, and there's, like, man, like, some deep ditches or, you know, like, wow, I'll lose my car if I fall off. Like, there's. There's no coming back if I fall off. So I get it. I get it. And I really like that description that it's not that the systems, the operational systems are not like, the line you have to stand on and keep following. It's the guardrails. Because I have been in those big corporate enterprise companies, I have railed against some of the systems in place that took me more time to maintain the system than to do the work. And, yeah, I'm one of. Yeah, I totally. I'm like, just. Just get out of my way. Let me do my thing. So, so I get it. I totally get it. I still feel like I've got a little bit of PTSD from some of the. From some of the stuff, but I. But I. What you just shared is a very different perspective than what I have often encountered or I have often felt. Is that something where you're like, when you talk with people, it sounds then like it's a little bit of an educational process, too, of like, systems. Systems are your friends.
Sonja Narvaez [5:28 - 6:31]: Yeah. I mean, it really is, actually, because just, like, I'm sure in marketing, there's different levels in operations and there's different pieces that people don't necessarily understand. And so while operations itself is. Is literally, in the dictionary, defined as anything and everything that moves the business forward, the ambiguity of that leaves a lot of room for interpretation. So each person that is in operations usually has their focus and how they do things. But, like most of us, we all have those different perspectives. And the way I look at it is, well, that way, because I'm a bit of a rebel. I don't want you to put me in a box. I don't want to have to do something specifically every time the same way. And that's what I really love about the guardrails, is here's the things that we need to stay within, but, like, we get to play and have a lot of creativity, like, inside of those containers.
Eric Rutherford [6:31 - 6:55]: That's huge. That really is. Yeah, I hit my button. We're just. We're wanting to make you feel comfortable here. Like, we're just. We're just humans here, and we. We are not slick by any means. Earth standard. Oh. So tell me about Operation Qol. So what is it?
Sonja Narvaez [6:55 - 8:54]: So, at Operation Qol, we work with business owners to help them design, build, and implement their systems and structure so that they can amplify their impact without sacrificing their quality of life. So my background is actually in healthcare, and I used to work in federally qualified health centers. I used to work in, like, the streets of Chicago in terms, like, in the health hospitals. And it was really, really difficult to work with people directly sick that were sick all the time. And, you know, it's a very not going to go down that road of the healthcare system, but it is a revolving door. And so, you know, you don't necessarily see people getting better. You see them either maintaining or getting worse. And so it was very, very difficult, mentally, emotionally, for me to continue doing that. And what I realized was, while I love healthcare and I love everything that we have the potential to do, I am much better actually running things and solving problems than I am trying to keep up this status quo of happening. So I created Operation Qol to focus on, to kind of focus on my core mission and life's mission, which is to improve and help people achieve a better quality of life in the manner or way that they want to do it. So quality of life, to me is very much encompassing of everything. It's not just, let's have all this money. Right? A lot of people focus on revenue. They focus on profit. They focus on views. They focus on clicks. What a lot of entrepreneurs forget is that we lose our quality of life when we're trying to build businesses around the way that other people think we should build them.
Eric Rutherford [8:55 - 9:23]: That's really powerful, because I think most entrepreneurs, whether they're doing, like, a solo business, whether they're trying to build a company from scratch and build it to whatever size, I think that is the trap. Like, where we think I have to achieve. I got to become Amazon. And it's like, no, I don't want to be Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk.
Sonja Narvaez [9:23 - 9:27]: Like, I want to keep here. Like, I'm fine. I want to keep. Yeah.
Eric Rutherford [9:27 - 9:30]: Like, I like having a little bit of life outside of work.
Sonja Narvaez [9:31 - 9:32]: I love having life outside of work.
Eric Rutherford [9:32 - 9:56]: Yeah. But I appreciate you're like, wow, let's. Let's really evaluate what that looks like, and let's do something to make that happen. So what kind of customers do you work with? I know I did in the intro, like the six figure, seven figure, but kind of give us a little more detail on that.
Sonja Narvaez [9:56 - 12:49]: Absolutely. So, honestly, a lot of times, my customers are experts, true experts. So they have some kind of niche in some way, shape, or form. For example, they have a specific target market. They have specific skills that, you know, are focused, such as, for example, I actually help clients, such as high performance coaches that work with athletes specifically or that work, you know, with other types of smaller, like, educational companies that are focused on educating and tutoring. And they focus on these two things. And that's really it. And so there is something about the visionary that they themselves are an expert in a specific field. And I say that because it's, you know, a lot of people are like, well, that's me, right? Like, that's. I'm an expert in this field. But really, a lot of people are actually more general than they, you know, think. And we need generalists. Okay. Like, I have a colleague, and she's amazing. She's a. She considers herself a generalist, and the work that she does is important. And I have seen her help entrepreneurs grow to that, you know, three, four, $5 million phrase, like phase. So it's very important. But you also need people who are experts in specific things. Like, no matter what. I like to call them nerds. Right. This is their love language. This is what they focus on. And, you know, they're gonna be able to see things in that way through that lens. So, for example, not to knock anybody, knock any professions or anything, but what I do see a lot is that people will kind of straddle two different fields. So they may be, oh, I'm operations, but I'm also a CFO. So most of the time, they're really looking at operations through a financial lens. And operations isn't just a financial lens. Right. All encompassing in the business. It is habits, behaviors, team planning, dumpster fires, everything and anything. So my customers tend to be very, very focused, and they also are either very hungry or they're very maxed out in terms of capacity of what's going on. So usually they have achieved some kind of high growth. They are focused on really being the face and want to be the face. They don't want to do the inner workings anymore. But they're also not workaholics, to be honest. I mean, God bless you, workaholics. But I like working with people who want something outside of work. So that, that, to me, is actually really important because my mission is all about quality of life. And I'm so sorry, but a lot of workaholics don't really care about that.
Eric Rutherford [12:49 - 13:19]: No, absolutely. That's. That's huge, because it's. And I appreciate that because, you know, visionary. And as I thought for a long time, I was a details person, but I'm not, like, I paint with a really big brush, and I own that now, and I'm comfortable with that now, but sometimes it just takes that realization of, okay, that's not, that's not really my strength, like, and so I need help with that.
Sonja Narvaez [13:20 - 14:33]: Yeah. And, you know, the more and more people realize that, the better. And I don't want to say easier, right. Because entrepreneur. The entrepreneurial journey will never be easy. No matter who you are, there will always be ups and downs, but you'll probably be able to maintain integrity. You'll be able to keep your life of some kind running, but you really, really have to focus on the things that you're good at. And don't get me wrong, right? Like, money is important in terms of, like, being able to access these people, but what else can we do, right? There's. There's so many different things. I know I'm part of a community where we have not have to, but we have member offers, and they're just basically our way of giving back to the community we offer people. You know, little sessions, each of us, like, of what our expertise is. And that's just like, you know, 30 minutes of free session of very big experts. So, like, there's not always an exchange of money. And with networking nowadays, the way it's going, it's all about making deeper connections. And in order to make deeper connections and for me to feel comfortable to refer, you kind of know and understand your process and how you do things. Yeah.
Eric Rutherford [14:33 - 15:15]: Because you don't want to send somebody, you don't want to recommend somebody, and then suddenly it's a mess or, like, it's just a bad experience. So, yeah, I totally, I totally respect that. So let me, let me ask, just in terms of systems and operations, how does a company, how can a company know if either they need to update their systems, or maybe, maybe they just need to add a system, right? Like, maybe they're just unaware of the fact that, you know, point a doesn't really connect to point b. They just think it does. Like, I think those are two different scenarios, but how does a company, how can they know that?
Sonja Narvaez [15:15 - 16:12]: So I find there's kind of really two avenues that help people understand that it's kind of time for operations to kick in. Excuse me. One is time, like, you are on that hamster wheel. You're spinning. You are like, I've got proof of concept. Money's coming in, but I'm exhausted and I have no time. And so if each, all of your team members and you, that's your culture. Every day we have something going on. Right. That is an operations issue, because there's something going on that's not allowing your team to kind of be able to be best in their day to day, and then you. Best in your day to day. So really it's all about, like, when you have no more time and no more capacity to do anything else. And then the second thing is really, oh, lord, I just had a brain fart. What was the second thing?
Eric Rutherford [16:12 - 16:13]: Totally cool. We'll edit.
Sonja Narvaez [16:13 - 16:15]: Like, what is the second thing?
Eric Rutherford [16:15 - 16:18]: And we can come back to it. It's totally cool.
Sonja Narvaez [16:18 - 16:37]: Yeah. I'm like, I'm like. It was something about, like, no idea. I want to say. It's like, so the other thing is when you find yourself losing money, losing people, and losing your mind.
Eric Rutherford [16:37 - 16:37]: Okay.
Sonja Narvaez [16:38 - 17:43]: When you just can't seem to figure out what are those? Like, what's the issue? A lot, like, most of the time, what people don't realize is a lot of problems end up being operational. Right. I mean, don't get me wrong. We all need marketing. We all need sales. We all need leads. We all need these things. But when we have them, when it's kind of a system and it's working okay, and things are coming in, but there's still something in here that's not connected, that's not working, usually it'll be an operations problem, and it's time to level up your systems. And that doesn't always mean, like you said, like, creating or, you know, dismantling anything, but it could mean creating a new system. It could mean optimizing something. It could mean ensuring that your people are in the right seats. It could be, you know, really figuring out what needs to be done and not done. So prioritizing planning, it could be a lot of things, but I would say those two are kind of really big factors for people.
Eric Rutherford [17:43 - 18:28]: That's, that's interesting. The idea that when you get to, when you've got proof of concept so you know what you're doing and what you're selling works, so you're not trying to figure that out. You're just, but you can't do anymore, and everybody's burnt out. And the other end, I like that idea, this idea. You're losing people because obviously something's broken because they're like, I'm done. Like, this is just dumb. Or you start losing money, which could be because your proof of concept is great, but you just can't implement the thing. Because I've been at big companies where there were just breakdowns, where it was like, okay, people want this, but we can't turn you up for six months, and it's like, forget that then.
Sonja Narvaez [18:28 - 18:29]: Yeah.
Eric Rutherford [18:29 - 18:40]: You know, so I appreciate both sides of the coin there, because that's a, that's a real challenge. And it's not like that doesn't just happen, like, instantaneously. That creeps up on.
Sonja Narvaez [18:41 - 19:24]: Yes. Yeah. It creeps up on you. And it's kind of like that, you know? So when you don't have quality, when you're, when you're running like a robot and you're, you know, you're not taking your quality of life into account, when you're running your business, you know very well that at one moment or another, you're just gonna drop. Like, your body is going to be like, enough is enough. You're sick now because you haven't paid attention to me. You haven't given me the time and space I needed. You have not rested and recovered like you needed to, and I've asked you to a million times. Our body's gonna be like, bam, down. So it's kind of like that. You kind of wake up one day and you realize, oh, my God, I cannot move from this bed.
Eric Rutherford [19:24 - 19:30]: Yeah. Yeah, that's it. It's one of those. You're just, you're so focused on surviving.
Sonja Narvaez [19:30 - 19:31]: Yes.
Eric Rutherford [19:31 - 19:35]: That. That you don't realize the position you're in.
Sonja Narvaez [19:35 - 19:36]: Yeah.
Eric Rutherford [19:36 - 20:05]: And then it. So let me. And then it almost seems like then it almost can feel insurmountable in terms of, how do I. I don't even know where to begin. Like, am I going to have to just blow the whole thing up? Or, you know, so is that where you just start taking some baby steps? How does that work? Or is it like, no, no, no. We just need to figure out all the systems, or lack thereof, you have in place where. What's that next step when you hit that?
Sonja Narvaez [20:05 - 22:37]: So, to be honest, I would say the first. Next step is to take a breath and a day off. Because one thing is, I would never want to work with somebody that is coming to me that is, you know, so, so desperate in a way that, you know, they're not making a decision out of, like, clarity and wanting to do this and wanting to work and wanting to change and add these things, because operations and how I, like, work in it, it's a very intimate thing. So we're working together. We're really working to make sure that your vision, your core values, and that your team is empowered, that everything is working together and that we all know where we're going. So it's a commitment. And so I'd want somebody never to come to me not able to make that commitment, because it's a disservice to them, and it's a disservice to me. And also, I'm an operations person. We don't really like wasting time. Let's just nip that in the butt. But I would say that that's the first step. Take a day and take a breath. And then I would say, talk to the people on your team to see what they think and what they're saying so that you can understand. Like, okay, maybe. Maybe it's just me, because I know I've had moments in my team where I'm like, I just feel like I'm not doing any. Like, nothing's happening. Nowhere we're going. And then I've spoken to my team, and they're like, wait, you don't get these notifications. Like, you don't know that these things are done and we can close the loop and I was like, no. So, like, I keep thinking about, you know, I'll delegate, keep thinking about things because I wasn't getting the notification, you know, so it could be something that maybe, you know, you guys work together and. And then, you know, if that, or if you don't have a team or if you don't know anybody, I would say, talk to your trusted colleagues. And I'm like, I'm like, Sonia, are we ever going to get to work with you? You know, is it ever a good time to work with you? But in real, like, what I love is for people to really come aware, and I have no problem talking to somebody who feels like they're, you know, they're not sure where to go, they're not sure what's going on. And I can give them, you know, some perspective from my operational lens, but I definitely want people to feel like they've done some due diligence, they've really made decisions from a place that they know is going to be, you know, that they're making the decisions that they know are going to be the best for the future. And long term, short term solutions, as we know, don't necessarily work all the time.
Eric Rutherford [22:37 - 22:48]: No, I'm guilty and have been a part of that. That knee jerk panic, I gotta do something, this guy's falling kind of thing. And, yeah, it does. It.
Sonja Narvaez [22:49 - 23:01]: I want a car in the moment when I was like, I can't drive this, like, front wheel drive in the. In the winter anymore. Like, I'm slipping, I'm scared. I'm just, I gotta go buy an suv.
Eric Rutherford [23:01 - 24:13]: Absolutely. Like, it's like one of those moments and it's like, whoa, we need to. I like that. Take a day off, take a breath, just kind of get some composure. It's going to be okay. We just need to walk into it with that mindset and know that it's going to take a little time. And, you know, kind of through this conversation you've. I am all for systems in automation, and I appreciate automation and being able to save time, save energy, do more. My frustration in the past is when the process has become the bottleneck instead of the sort of interstate, right, when they. When they do, when the process becomes the problem, how can a company keep that from happening? Like, is there anything they can be on the lookout for? Is there anything they can do? You know, I mean, we're. We're using all of these task management systems and all of these other things which are supposed to ingest theory, make things better. And sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. So how do we, how do we navigate that? Does that question make sense?
Sonja Narvaez [24:14 - 26:32]: It does. And actually, the first, the first thing I want to mention or the first thing, it kind of comes, it brings me back to brushing your teeth. You, you're supposed to be doing it every day. And the theory is that it's going to keep us from having cavities and going to the dentist too often and getting our teeth removed. But as you know, some of those things actually still happen. And we still have to go to the dentist. We still have to get cleanings from them. We still have to do all those things. So one of the things that most people don't think about or do is look back. So during your, you should have quarterly, you know, you should be having quarterly planning sessions, and you should be having an annual planning session at those checkpoints. You should be looking back as to what were learnings, what were victories, what did the numbers say so that we can really see, okay, whats the biggest picture here and where are the biggest problems? And then thats that first layer, right. The second layer is, okay, cool. Whats happening in this? What do our systems or structure look like or not look like that are causing that issue? What I would also say is when we dont update things on a regular basis, it will become outdated and break apart. So at those, you know, on a quarterly basis, even on a biannual basis, if you can review each department's systems and processes, you know, it might not be you as a CEO. You might have an operations person to help you do that. But, you know, or just, you know, some colleagues, some people like, you can also have like a meeting with people who are actually doing those processes and you can talk to them, engage it. But you want to always be monitoring to ensure that you are doing your optimized, you're as optimized as you can be right now. Right. There's always room for improvement. But right now, like, what is our temperature? And, you know, it becomes more and more evident as you get into that planning, you know, those planning phases and habits that, you know, this is going to be a problem. This is going to be a problem. So then at that point, we can start addressing them before they even become bottlenecks.
Eric Rutherford [26:32 - 26:54]: I like that. That makes sense. Just that regular, just conversation. Quarterly, annual, let me, so that seems very reasonable for small businesses. So let's increase the scale and say, let's talk about large enterprise companies. Does it work the same way for them?
Sonja Narvaez [26:54 - 28:35]: So my, I will caveat my response with, I primarily work with those, you know, smaller, six, seven bigger businesses. Right. Like, so I haven't worked much with large, large clients, aside from when I was in corporate. What I will say is that there is a lot more complexity as a result of the additional bureaucracy that happens in lots of companies. But I do think and, you know, stand by, like, monitoring. Monitoring and checking in is really important. And a lot of times people don't do that on a regular basis in general. So I have, I have colleagues, I have best friends that work in, you know, large scale enterprise companies, and they, part of the bottleneck part of the systems breaking is communication. And as you get bigger, it seems that the harder communication really becomes. And you have to, you know, and as you're growing, you really just have to prepare for that. You have to, you know, hire incredible people who can help you and your teams keep that cohesion of a small business, you know, keep that camaraderie, you know, keep the conversation flowing, you know, keep the ideas going. So, and that's, you know, that's not everybody's expertise. Right? That's not everybody's focus. But I think that, you know, investing in something along those lines early as your company is growing is really important because it will affect everything else.
Eric Rutherford [28:35 - 29:26]: That makes sense. So let me kind of with that, because obviously, the more people you add, the bigger your company gets, the more complexity you get. Very much what you were saying. At the same time, even with small businesses, you know, systems within a department, you know, even if you're a department of three, you know, you're still a department. But the moment you have to cross a departmental sort of boundary, that demarcation point, it seems like things get, things get harder. Like, how do you get buy in the, like, how do you get buy in when suddenly it goes outside your sphere of authority? And obviously, as you're working with CEO's, it's like, well, everything is theoretically under their authority, but they're still going to have to get buy in from the different groups. How do you handle that? I'd love to hear.
Sonja Narvaez [29:26 - 29:45]: So I just want to make sure I'm understanding your question. You're saying that when a project, let's say it includes the marketing team and the sales team, and so you're asking how do we make sure that those people communicate or.
Eric Rutherford [29:45 - 31:05]: Oh, great question. Yeah, I kind of muddled it as I went. I apologize. So let's say it could be like any system. Let's say we are going to, we're going to, we're trying to figure out how to, how to handle orders better, you know, just from a perspective of order management. So you probably have some, somebody, one or more people handling inbound orders. And it could be, you know, you're going through shopify, it could be going through any website. You could be buying a service, you know, whatever it is. But then suddenly you've got somebody who is shipping, somebody who is marketing, somebody who is sales, somebody maybe who is handling inventory. So you have all of these pieces, but, and then obviously you may even have, you know, acquisition or purchasing. So especially if you're dealing in widgets, let's just say widgets. That's, I know that's a very technical production total. Yeah, I'm going into, into geek speak here with production, but you've got all these groups, so now you're touching multiple departments. So how do you go about implementing something? Because, like, you're like, hey, we're just like dying on the vine. Like you said earlier, we have proof of concept. People are buying this stuff, but, man, we just can't get it shipped.
Sonja Narvaez [31:05 - 31:06]: Right.
Eric Rutherford [31:06 - 31:12]: So how do we begin implementing this thing that's going to cross these departments? Does that makes sense?
Sonja Narvaez [31:12 - 31:29]: Yeah. So you're kind of talking about when a process includes multiple people, places, and, you know, like things that are happening. So it's like more of an, I don't want to say asynchronous work, but everybody's kind of doing different things at the same time and they affect each piece. Like each piece.
Eric Rutherford [31:29 - 31:30]: Yes.
Sonja Narvaez [31:30 - 34:26]: So one thing that is always important is there has to be what I call kind of a source of knowledge. So, like, there has to be somebody who is managing and knows kind of all of those things, all of those pieces that go into it and all of what's happening in each place. So that that person, and it's typically an operations person. So having somebody help you coordinate and make sure they understand all of these things so that this person can stay impartial because the teams individually and people in those specific departments are experts in those departments and they will believe, as, as most of us do right when we're in our kind of expertise, that this is a great way and that this is going to be easiest for us. And so the question isn't, you know, making sure you're asking yourself the correct questions as well. Right. So the question isn't how do we make it easier just for my department. The question is how do we make this the best service for our clients and keep our sanity? Right. Like, so it is also like, incremental kind of communication. So. And always, like, checking in. So having somebody to, like, kind of lead that for all of them, keeping the peace in a way and making sure that every meeting. Right. Every meeting has agendas. Every, every meeting is productive. The more meetings you have, the less productive they are. The less effective they are, the more checked out the entire company will be. And once that operations person has a good handle, there's great communication facilitated by this person. There's notes taken and decisions made together. There is going to be a process that is inclusive of everyone that can then be documented and reviewed by everyone so that there is a buy in. So this process includes everyone's buy in, but it also ensures that we still keep our primary focus, which is that, you know, depending on your core values, it could be that white glove service for clients or it could be that, you know, speedy delivery or something. It's really important to also consider that. And I'm not very good at this, but you can't always go Roadrunner style. Like, I'm. I love, I love the Roadrunner. Don't get me wrong. I adore the roadrunner. I tend to work. I always say I'm a sprinter, not a marathoner. Like, I'm not. But when it comes to working with cross functional teams and it comes to working with a bunch of different people, and there is a lot of decisions that have to be made that affect more than, you know, just a few. You want to go slower to ease it in.
Eric Rutherford [34:26 - 34:39]: That makes sense. Yeah. It's just the sheer complexity, the sheer buy in everything else. It does become slower even when you don't want it to be slower, even when you feel like it needs to be done next week, it's like, well, is that reasonable?
Sonja Narvaez [34:39 - 35:10]: And is it sustainable? I mean, I would love to get everything done by next week, but what does that mean for the future? Right. And I do this myself. Right. I know I've answered questions because, like, I just got to do it. I got to do it. How many times have we been wrong because we're rushing? How many times have we made mistakes and created larger problems for the future because we were like, I can't marathon. I need to sprint.
Eric Rutherford [35:10 - 35:51]: That's a good point. I mean, it's just because it's the, it's almost like when you start working and you say, okay, this works. If everything lines up just perfectly and the optimum happens and nothing's late and there's no errors and there's no hiccups, we can do this. And totally not real, totally not reasonable, totally not sustainable, and I'm totally guilty. Like, I just own that. Like, I try too much to live in an optimal world that doesn't exist.
Sonja Narvaez [35:51 - 36:36]: Oh, yeah. And I always plan, but it's never perfect. And even kind of the same way, like, one of the things that's really important to me is like, efficiency and not wasting time. And so I will, I'm like, you know what the most efficient thing is? To have six meetings in a row, not take any breaks, and then be done for half the day. But I don't know if you've ever really done that. Let me tell you, I suffer the rest of the day, the next day, the day after. I mean, I'm not in my twenties anymore, so, you know, maybe it's bad, but there is a load that you're going to take on either way. So you have to determine what load you are able to handle at the point.
Eric Rutherford [36:37 - 36:50]: Yeah, it's like our humanity gets in the way. It just does. And I'm with you, it's like after about two or three calls, I'm like, whatever happens in the later ones, I, like, I don't remember it.
Sonja Narvaez [36:50 - 36:52]: Like, I'm just need me there because.
Eric Rutherford [36:52 - 37:21]: Like, I wasn't, I know, like, I don't know what I was doing, but, you know, you were talking, it's all good. But, yeah, it's, it's tough. We, we forget that, or we don't. Honestly, I think sometimes we don't want to acknowledge that. You know, it's like, okay, I can't, I can't do this many meetings in a row. I can't do this. Regardless of. I think I should. It's like, I gotta go pee. Like, I just gotta go to the bathroom and walk around for a few minutes.
Sonja Narvaez [37:21 - 37:47]: I have, I have, I have done. And we're gonna, I'm not gonna lie, I know myself. I'm going to do it again once in a while. I just, oh, yeah. So I, and there have literally been moments in meetings where I'm back to back and I'm like, I'm so sorry. Pee really bad. I will pee my pants. And in my head I'm like, oh, my God, if I wore a diaper right now, that would be so efficient. But I was like, no, no, this is where we draw the line.
Eric Rutherford [37:48 - 38:08]: But I think that that's a beautiful example, though. It's something like, okay, I need to, I need to be realistic in my expectations. I need to understand that in whatever system I set up and whatever my processes are, I have to allow for a less than, you know, perfect efficiency.
Sonja Narvaez [38:08 - 38:09]: Yeah.
Eric Rutherford [38:09 - 38:21]: And that's okay. And it's not only okay, that's, that's just business. It's not like we're not seeking excellence. It's just, it's a difference between excellence and perfection. I think, and I think we get those confused.
Sonja Narvaez [38:21 - 38:24]: I agree. That's, I love that. Please elaborate.
Eric Rutherford [38:24 - 38:45]: As a recovering perfectionist, I, you know, and my, my problem was my perfectionism. And it wasn't that, you know, some perfectionists, they're like, I'm just going to spend 15 hours fixing this one little thing. And me, my perfectionism drove me the other way. It's like, oh, I can't be perfect. Therefore I just, I'm not going to start.
Sonja Narvaez [38:45 - 39:38]: So, yeah, that's myself on the deadlines. So I'm, I'm a, I want to say I'm a recovering perfectionist, but at this point, I don't even know what I'm doing. So I will say to myself, well, I, like, it's due this day, I'm gonna put it on my calendar for two weeks forward, and all of a sudden, whoops, it moved to the next day. Whoops, the next day, the next day, the next day, the next, and all of a sudden now I'm under this deadline and whatever comes out, comes out. And, you know, it's always like, I have very high standards and it'll, you know, it's never, it's never anything like leftover or, you know, last little bit of energy. I always put a lot of effort and work and love into my systems and structure, but I could have actually probably felt better throughout if I had just started earlier and taken it smaller.
Eric Rutherford [39:38 - 40:04]: Those are words to live by. Started earlier, taking it smaller. Yeah, it's the baby steps that can make a huge difference. And as somebody guilty of not doing that, frequently, often. So any before we wrap up, last takeaway that you would like to give to our audience in terms of systems, operations, encouragement, challenges, anything you'd like to.
Sonja Narvaez [40:04 - 41:44]: Leave them with, I would say keep it simple, sexy, because like, one thing that people always want to jump to is project management tools, task management tools, automations, like AI, all of these things to streamline and make your systems better. But what ends up happening is you end up losing, I would say kind of, I don't want to say control, but you end up losing that connection with your business and you end up doing things probably not in the way that you see yourself in the future. So sometimes, like I do still use pen and paper to write my to do list, you know, and I do that a lot for my home stuff, for my shopping list. And it's my system that, you know, I sit down and write every day. Like, my process is writing down, you know, daily or weekly, kind of something that I need, something that needs to get picked up when I'm going to do it, etcetera. And, you know, that's just on paper. I don't. I've tried using apps. I've tried using, like, you know, my phone notes. I've tried using different things, but none of it sticks. And so instead of trying to use all those things become, you know, just using my phone and more efficient and not paper and pen and what is that? That's from the 1930s. Like, I'm going to, you know, just keep it simple for myself and focus on what works and what I can adopt myself based on my habits, my preferences, and who I am to.
Eric Rutherford [41:44 - 42:00]: I love that. Keep it simple, sexy. That's it, right? It's just, don't overthink it and don't think it has to be complicated. I love that. So, Sonia, if people want to know more about you, more about your business, where do you want them to go?
Sonja Narvaez [42:00 - 42:26]: So, I typically hang out on LinkedIn. You can look me up Sonia nerve, and. Or you can listen to my podcast that will be releasing a couple episodes over the next few weeks. And you can find that at wherever you listen to your podcasts. And then you can also check out my website and let me know what you think. Because eventually, I'm going through a rebrand, so I need to know what else I should add in.
Eric Rutherford [42:26 - 42:49]: I love it. Yeah, that's. That's great, because feedback's critical, so we're going to drop all of those links in the show notes. Please make sure to connect with Sonia. She's just a wealth of information and. And just a fantastic resource, and she will. She's just going to make your life better by what she shares and what she knows. So, Sanya, this has been a blast. I've learned a ton. Thanks so much for joining me today.
Sonja Narvaez [42:49 - 42:56]: Thank you so much, Eric. I've had so much fun today, and I am excited to talk to you again.