EP 0.1 Introducing Design Economics with Dr. Paula Seymour of Flagler College

Join host Vinny Tafuro and guest Dr. Paula Seymour, Assistant Professor and Program Director of Social Entrepreneurship at Flagler College, as they explore how design thinking can revolutionize economics for the 21st century. Learn about the three tenets of design economics and hear how visionary thinkers like Hazel Henderson, Marilyn Waring, Riane Eisler, and Kate Raworth have shaped this approach to creating more sustainable, human-centered economic solutions.

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Creators & Guests

Host

Vinny Tafuro

Vinny is a visionary, futurist, writer, entrepreneur, communications theorist, and economist. A polymath and curious by nature, he is a pioneering advocate for the twenty-first-century economy that is disrupting society’s rigid institutions and beliefs. Vinny’s economic and foresight projects explore the societal and economic shifts being catalyzed by human culture as a result of technology, corporate personhood, and evolving human cognition. An engaging and energetic speaker, Vinny presents on a variety of topics both professionally and through community outreach. He enjoys an active and blended professional, academic, and personal life, selecting challenging projects that offer opportunities for personal and professional growth. He is the author of Corporate Empathy and Unlocking the Labor Cage.

Guest

Paula Seymour, Ph.D.

Assistant Professor of Business Administration; Social Entrepreneurship Program Director Paula Seymour is an Assistant Professor of Business Administration and Social Entrepreneurship Program Director at Flagler College in St. Augustine, Florida. Paula encourages socially and environmentally conscious entrepreneurs and business leaders to consider a circular economic approach that embraces the triple bottom line. She inspires compassionate and conscious leaders to create prosperous and inclusive ‘life economies’ through spiritual decision-making, embodying conscious leadership for systems change, regeneration, and organizational renewal. Paula earned a Bachelor of Arts Degree in Business Administration and has a Master’s Degree in International Business Administration and a Master’s Degree in Women, Gender, Spirituality, and Social Justice. Paula also completed her Ph.D. in Religion with a focus on Women’s Spirituality. Her academic research explores women, gender, spirituality, gender-based violence, and environmental and social justice.

What is Design Economics Podcast with Vinny Tafuro?

Join us to discover how design thinking can revolutionize economics for the 21st century. Learn about the Institute for Economic Evolution's three tenets of design economics and meet the pioneering thinkers who are shaping this approach. From challenging economic orthodoxy to creating human-centered solutions, explore how design economics is evolving economics to better serve humanity and the environment.

Paula Seymour: 00:00

What a gift Hazel was to our world and, of course, continues to be in the spirit realm somewhere, and, you know, what a trailblazer.

Vinny Tafuro: 00:13

Welcome to the Design Economics podcast, where we explore how design thinking driven by data is revolutionizing economics for the 21st century. My name is Vinny Tafuro, a futurist, economist, and pod host for this pilot episode. Today, I will be talking with Paula Seymour, PhD from Flagler College. Paula is an assistant professor and program director of social entrepreneurship. Our conversation will begin with an overview of the three tenants of design economics and move into a review of the pioneering women and market driven business movements that adhere to those tenants.

Vinny Tafuro: 00:42

And with that, I hope you enjoy this conversation with Paula Seymour.

Paula Seymour: 00:46

Hi, Vinny. Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to talk about design economics today with you.

Vinny Tafuro: 00:53

Me as well. Me as well. I know this has been quite a journey, and I guess I'll start with a little bit of the mission of the institute itself. You know, we find support and share data driven and design centered economic ideas aligned with the three tenets of design economics. And in simple words, our vision is nurturing economic systems that cultivate rather than restrict our human potential.

Vinny Tafuro: 01:15

That's something we've worked on refining quite a bit. Paula, if you can maybe go into why design economics matters now.

Paula Seymour: 01:23

Sure. And I think it's, really important, the work that you're doing, Vinny, and especially highlighting a little bit about the 3 tenets that you really bring into play, you know, going more in-depth into some of the pioneering thinkers, which we'll get into as well. But I really see a big, big shift in regards to the realm of of economics and the importance of, to me, especially the world that I navigate, which is the world of social entrepreneurship. And, my, mantra or one of my mantras is an environmental injustice is a social injustice. So, you know, really looking at economics from the standpoint which we currently are not addressing, I believe, in a early in-depth way of looking at, society and and communities and the importance of designing around people, instead of solely the economic model and of of profitability.

Paula Seymour: 02:30

So I really, really think it's it's critical now today more than ever to, really start seeing, the shift from, again, some of these pioneering thinkers moving into today of of these more 21st century models that are going to really acknowledge nature, as as onboarding nature, an important part of the economic system as well as, of course, people.

Vinny Tafuro: 02:56

Right. For a moment, let's talk a little bit about design thinking itself as a concept because I know I I've people are like, what's design? And myself, I came from a graphic design and website design, model. So when I first heard design thinking, I was like, why design logos all the time? What does design thinking mean?

Vinny Tafuro: 03:11

And, have you had that kind of, challenge or or, in introducing that term to people?

Paula Seymour: 03:19

So, you know, of course, a human centered design approach and, which was put out by IDEO and is a big part of MIT's program and, a big part of what I also, teach in regards to social entrepreneurship is, you know, a lot of, of, people have never heard of it before. But once they they understand, that putting the needs of users first and observing how the user interacts with their environment and then generating ideas and prototyping and designing around, the human needs is, again, an integral part of being a social entrepreneur and recognizing that we are not just designing to design, we're designing to bring about change for the greater good and and therefore the importance of looking at the needs of of community and and solving, problems, through innovation, centered around the human, the human being.

Vinny Tafuro: 04:23

Yeah. Absolutely. I know, You know, it it's really this idea, this this, you know, design thing. It's this iterative problem solving, because so many things right now. Once the problem's solved, we don't go back.

Vinny Tafuro: 04:33

And what I love about design, as a concept is this idea that you're always that there's a cycle to it, to bring people back as opposed to, you know, launching and then not revisiting, I think, makes a big difference.

Paula Seymour: 04:47

Right. And and, you know, and and more importantly, empowering those that that we want to serve, with the skills, right, that that for sustaining instead of you know, I think traditionally, we we go in and and we throw money at a problem and think that we're going to find a solution and, you know, a a temporary solution is found. However, we we the money runs out and and we leave these communities in a space maybe that's even, you know, worse off than than it was before we entered in with with this so called solution. So, again, the the human centered design thinking is, you know, empowering and and allowing communities to, sustain themselves and, and and build futures that have, economies that are strong and and lifting people up to a place that is not an extracted model. Yeah.

Paula Seymour: 05:53

All that is.

Vinny Tafuro: 05:53

More holistic and and sustained, which actually is a good trend, you know, of why this is important for economics right now. You know, I I save a quote that I use often. In, John Maynard Keynes in the 19 thirties. He wrote that practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist. And, this really illustrates the idea that we just sort of hold economics as, oh, it's this thing thing that's been handed down by Adam Smith or whoever you wanna cite, and then it hasn't changed.

Vinny Tafuro: 06:28

And I think, you know, the the key to to those early philosophers who were really philosophers before economists is the fact that they were looking at how society was and identifying how systems worked as opposed to dictating how society should work based on a concept. And, you know, I I just find that that very telling that that, you know, almost a 100 years ago it was very, very obvious that that we were following other people's ideas, that may not be relevant.

Paula Seymour: 06:56

Right. And and, you know, it's so important, to me. It it's almost like this this this disconnect that, you know, we we know strong economic systems, you know, to have that, we we need communities, strong communities that are thriving. And, yet we have, for example, in the United States, one of our economic indicators, which is the GDP, but the GDP is separating people from from, the economy yet, you know, you you can't separate, you know, people from the economy because people are what makes strong thriving, economies through, you know, giving back. So, it it's almost like not almost.

Paula Seymour: 07:37

It's it's, you know, we need to shift away from from that that GDP as being a sole measure of progress and, start looking at, you know, economies that serve humanity and the planet and that are inclusive instead of divisive. And so so yeah. Yeah. Really, really important. And and why, you know, what you're talking about in the work that you do in regards to economic literacy and and empowering individuals to understand the systems because they shape our lives.

Paula Seymour: 08:13

Right? From from personal finance to global politics that, you know, we, people and planet, should should have, at least the people have a voice in in what these economic systems are are doing. And, because without it, you know, nature's being exploited, people are being exploited, and, we're really seeing, you know, communities that aren't thriving. We're it's Yeah.

Vinny Tafuro: 08:42

And I I've always I I I've always come back to, you know, like like the idea that with caretaking, and we'll get into this with some of our thinkers, that that, you know, caring for people at home you know, caring for your child at home doesn't count. It actually counts as leisure time and and whereas if you hire a nanny, that contributes to GDP. And and it's really whether it's progressive or conservative, whether it's demand side, supply side, whatever label you wanna use for the left or right, you know, both economic systems, socialism, capitalism, neither of them look at anything outside of GDP. You know, on the left, it's it's a government social safety net. On the right, we still rely on an invisible hand.

Vinny Tafuro: 09:23

You know? And and and I really think Adam Smith is rolling in his grave with the fact that we're not saying it's data. Data is the invisible hand. We can measure it. We can evaluate it.

Vinny Tafuro: 09:33

And, you know, I hope design thinking gets us a little bit closer to that with some of these new thinkers bringing them together.

Paula Seymour: 09:40

Right. Right. And and, you know, that's a a good point. So to me, you know, the the, you know, sustainability is a a big buzzword now. And, you know, people plan it and profit, triple bottom line, yet we've embraced somewhat.

Paula Seymour: 09:55

We're getting there what we call the double bottom line, which is the, the the planet and the, profit side because like you said, it's there's data there. It it's it's measurable. It's it's it's achievable. But what we haven't gotten is the people side. So, and and and again, this goes down to the disconnect of of the the whole economic system of separating people from GDP.

Paula Seymour: 10:20

It's the same thing in in this this sustainability. You know, we're we're claiming to be truly sustainable, as as businesses, as societies, but, you know, we're we're doing better with the environment. We still have a long, long, long ways to go, but we can't figure out the people, you know. It's it's like, how do we measure it? And and everybody's so scared to to to, you know, venture into the realm of the social side to, what it means to be sustainable.

Paula Seymour: 10:52

But but to me, that's the the big disconnect in in society is, we can't even see each other in in our humanity and recognize the importance of what it means to to take care of each other. Again, which is is to me the the the the framework for an economic system to be fully thriving is for the people to be fully, you know, thriving and and healthy and well. And, you know, that which we're seeing a a a big uptick in in mental health issues, for example, and and so the people aren't well. So so what do we do, you know, to ensure so we can grow those profits all day long and, we can measure, you know, the the objective data that we're collecting, but, you know, what about the people? What what about people?

Paula Seymour: 11:41

You know? So yeah. So there's

Vinny Tafuro: 11:43

Well, that's, I think, Kate Raworth in, donut economics. She wrote about that that, you know, I or or or cited the these the root word of economics in Greek is household management. It was always about managing the people and the household and making sure the household was sustainable, and we separated from that, and we're not acknowledging change. Maybe we could, move into the 3 a quick overview of the three tenants, and then we'll, go back and forth maybe on a deep dive a little bit further on them.

Paula Seymour: 12:15

Okay. So tenant number 1, acknowledging change. All paradigms have a lifespan. Tenant number 2, embracing creativity. Economics must refrain from punishing creativity.

Paula Seymour: 12:29

And tenant number 3, cultivating literacy. A free, equitable, and flourishing society requires economic literacy. So maybe you can share in-depth, Vinay, what those mean?

Vinny Tafuro: 12:43

Yeah. Act absolutely. You know, that that first one, the acknowledging change, you know, I I was introduced quite a while ago when I was doing research to Thomas Kuhn and his structure of scientific revolutions. And the fact that in science, there's this this cycle that you go through for change. And, you know, you have your normal science, which is where, you know, everything's kind of mainstream floating around good.

Vinny Tafuro: 13:08

And then things start drifting. They don't make as much sense. And then all of a sudden, there's a crisis. And that crisis goes, okay. You know, all you see is the flaws in the way the system's working.

Vinny Tafuro: 13:20

And in this case, we have so many things we can point to that economics is broken. And then what happens next is you have a model revolution where new ideas come together, coalesce, and the paradigm shifts, and then you go into a new phase of normal science, which is no longer the previous normal science. And I just find that so fascinating that that we can see this cycle and and start to see how it's happened, many times in many different human systems.

Paula Seymour: 13:49

I I think yeah. That's point.

Vinny Tafuro: 13:50

Really fascinating.

Paula Seymour: 13:52

Right. Right. And and, you know, to kind of, segue off what you're saying there that, Thomas Kuhn's concept of of these paradigm shifts is, also he highlights that that for transformative change to occur, it can only occur in an existing framework that's available to address new problems. But if we have a framework like we have today that hasn't gone through a paradigm shift and and, you know, how long, and we have these new problems that are emerging, for example, COVID 19, the pandemic, and and situations that really shut down the economy, but but we don't we're we're not able to transform and to make these paradigm shifts because the framework doesn't know how to handle these these new problems. And, so I I think that's a great acknowledgement that that change and and especially in in economic systems has to her, occur just like science, right, where we change and and and move like like science.

Paula Seymour: 14:53

We have to do the same with with economics.

Vinny Tafuro: 14:56

Yeah. I I agree. And I I think, you know, some of the exam like, I I always look back to, like, you know, Henry Ford, you know, creating the production line, or applying the manufacturing line to cars to make them affordable and then paying his workers enough to be able to afford the cars created a new cycle. Before that, you didn't think it was possible, and he was able to work the factories longer and and and, and provide more. You know?

Vinny Tafuro: 15:20

I look, Steve Jobs. You know, that we went from the, you know, home computer club where people built their own computers and people like, who would wanna buy a computer already done to, you know, where we are today, which is, you know, obviously, quite a bit different. And then, I always look at Wikipedia specifically on the economics. I think, Jimmy Wales, when he founded that, you know, decided to create a nonprofit model. And and today, I look at, you know, start up culture, and it's always, you know, what are the economics of your brilliant idea?

Vinny Tafuro: 15:53

How does your idea fit into current economics? And Jimmy, you know, Wales flipped that on its head with Wikipedia and saying, how can Wikipedia change the economics of the entire publishing and and encyclopedia industry, which doesn't exist in the same way it did before? And I just find that fascinating that economics changed because of an idea as opposed to the other way around.

Paula Seymour: 16:19

Right. And and, you know, disruptive innovation and and really understanding, that that these you know, and and there's that shift, right, that that happened. But the question is, you know, will it stay, you know. So, you know, so I I feel like we're still and and just to to be clear, I'm not an economist. I can I can tell you that much?

Paula Seymour: 16:40

But, you know, I just see from from the work of social entrepreneurship and and social and environmental justice that, economics plays a a big role. Like you said, it's it's profit has always been at the forefront of of, you know, traditional, business, but it's been an extracted model. And, so, you know, these these paradigm shifts were shifting, but but it's lateral. Like, you know, we're we're I feel like we're not making any, real progress that's that's sustaining, that that's, you know, you know, society's ready to grapple with and and to hold on to. So, you know, and and I really feel that there's going to be a a lot of dismantling of many systems, and people are gonna get really, really uncomfortable, right, with with this disruptive innovation, I guess you could call it in a sense.

Paula Seymour: 17:33

And, you know, what are we gonna do with it and, you know, with with these shifts? Because, you know, the traditional growth centric model, like I said, the extractive model is is it it needs to be shifted. It needs to be changed, and, and it is being questioned now, right, with in light of climate change and a lot of inequality and resource depletion. So, you know, and and I know we're gonna get into these pioneer thinkers, based on on your your thoughts. But yeah.

Paula Seymour: 18:10

So that Thomas Kuhn and and and all of the, you know, examples you just provided of shifts that have happened, but nothing that's really taken hold. Right? We still have gene

Vinny Tafuro: 18:20

No. Especially within the field itself, and that's, you know, the the embracing change part of it. There was an article published in, 2018, called the tyranny of the top five journals, and it was you know, I I've previous to getting, you know, a little deeper in in academia, I didn't realize how much it was self reinforcing. And and, you know, if you you use the, you you used my the catchphrase, I'm not an economist. Economics is a social science.

Vinny Tafuro: 18:50

It's not there's no bar exam. There's no accounting, you know, certification that you have to get. You know, I I got my master's degree in foresight from the University of Houston. So, you know, that makes me a futurist, but, you know, I have many colleagues that did not get academically trained, and they are just as much, if not far more futurist than I am considering I just got the degree. And I think, really, economics, it's one of the only fields that people preface themselves.

Vinny Tafuro: 19:18

You know, if we were talking about one of the geopolitical hot spots in the world right now, neither one of us would say, well, I'm not a geopolitical expert, but here's my opinion. Yet with economics, that kind of creativity coming from the outside is specifically punished. And I think that's why, you know, so many of these heterodox or or new ideas, they're not even in the economics departments because they wouldn't have gotten anywhere.

Paula Seymour: 19:43

Right. And and and that's a great point. And and and and perhaps maybe that's why they're not holding. Right? They're not becoming models that are actually embraced and and accepted in the world of economist and and financiers and and and recognizing that, you know, I I believe that innovation, you have to you know, it it comes from different ways of thinking and and being and and designing.

Paula Seymour: 20:11

You know, back to that human centered design approach is we're looking at the community that that we're serving as economists and and, you know, what are the shifts? What are the changes? What are the need? These these pioneer thinkers, Hazel Henderson and Marilyn Waring and Riane Eisler and Kate Raisworth, you know, they're they brought in these these new ways of of thinking and being and, you know, that's where the shift begins. It's just the question of when is it going to be, you know, accepted.

Vinny Tafuro: 20:43

Accepted. And I think, you know, that's the the you know, our 3rd tenant, cultivating literacy. You know, that if if design and this is where I I believe design thinking has a way of uniting all of these disparate ideas together because currently they don't. You know, mainstream economics has well, they're the mainstream. All the other ones are kind of not linked together yet.

Vinny Tafuro: 21:08

And I think if using design thinking as a as a concept in a way of of promoting literacy and, you know, understanding that the math has been specifically made to make economics more confusing, There is a British economic historian, that he was part of a series on how and how not to do economics put out by the Institute For New Economic Thinking. He, says economists prefer to be precisely wrong than approximately right. And that's why you get these very, very intricate models that win Faux Nobel prizes that we'll get into in a minute. Yet when they're applied in the real world, they're wrong. You know, we're finding so many things, whether it's, you know, minimum wage, to insurance, just a whole bunch of things that when you actually look at data, they're they're just assumptions that have been made.

Vinny Tafuro: 21:59

They're not grounded in reality. And, so I I just I I find that if we can do a better job of telling the story than the mainstream, then that's where that disruption happens. And I think, you know, that's where when you point out and this is this is, I think, a great segue into our thinkers is that this has been going on for over over 50 years. And, I mean, I look at, you know, Hazel Henderson who, I'm gonna let you talk about because I I did not get the chance to become as close to her as as you were before she passed. And, I think that she's a wonderful person to start with today.

Paula Seymour: 22:39

Yeah. Hazel, what a what a gift Hazel was to our world and, of course, continues to be in in the spirit realm somewhere. And, you know, what a trailblazer she was. And, you know, she really critiqued the limitations of of GDP and, you know, really argued that the GDP ignored the critical dimensions of, for example, environmental health, social equity, and human, happiness. So, Hazel's lifelong mission was to expand our understanding of progress beyond the numbers, right, and and to really bring in that that humanistic, approach to, what economics is and and what the economy is.

Paula Seymour: 23:25

And, you know, she, where I'm located, she she was a gift to my students and and we would always go over and, I mean, she was just a, I mean, just a power power powerhouse and, you know, her her ability to just, connect on local issues as well as global issues and highlighting, how the environmental degradation is tied to, flawed, economic politics. And she, really brought that about in in the sixties. So like you said, I mean, this has been going on for a long time and, she, you know, was talking about the solar age back in the sixties, you know, and and this was her vision for a renewable energy driven economy, back in the sixties. Right? That that was to get rid of these fossil fuel age extracted practices.

Vinny Tafuro: 24:23

And she really started the environmental movement. I I think that's like, she's kinda credited with that, at least in New York. So

Paula Seymour: 24:31

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And and New York based on the air pollution that that New York is having and and probably still having today. Right?

Paula Seymour: 24:39

And yeah. So she had a big advocacy for, ethical investing, which influenced the rise of the green bonds and sustainable finance movements that that we're really seeing today and, which is, I I think, globally, in in in other countries such as Europe, it's it's becoming, you know, a a strong foothold. We're we're slowly moving into it again, here in the US. But, yeah, she was definitely a a a trailblazer and and and probably one of the first to really critique the limitations of of well, not the first, but maybe from a feminist standpoint at least.

Vinny Tafuro: 25:17

Oh, yeah. And I think her her her just kind of I can't directness is the only word I can come up with right now. You know? Yeah. Calling economics a pseudoscience.

Paula Seymour: 25:28

Yeah.

Vinny Tafuro: 25:29

And and, you know, recognizing that she was an economist. And, again, you know, she was not formally trained in economics, yet she was all the the economist anybody else could be. And I think, you know, this is, you know, back to the literacy part. You know? I love the fact that she that her and I connected on the fact that I was railing against the fake Nobel Prize in economics.

Vinny Tafuro: 25:51

And, that one just gets me every time. Whether it's a journalist or it's another podcast on economics or some sort of thing, there is no Nobel Prize in economics. And I love that she recognized that, and we connected on that. You know, it's the Swedish bank prize. I I think that's probably a whole another episode probably next October when when when that prize is awarded yet again.

Vinny Tafuro: 26:17

Oh, my gosh. So from there, I'd like to move on to the, next trailblazer on our list, and that is Marilyn Waring, who was the youngest member of New Zealand's parliament in the eighties. I was first introduced to her, by a friend a colleague and friend who had helped me edit my first book back in 2,011, 12. And, I didn't really follow-up with it right away. And then I connected with her TED Talk on time use surveys.

Vinny Tafuro: 26:49

So she wrote a book in 1988 called If Women Counted, and it was the founding document of the feminist economic movement and really started looking. She centers on time use surveys as opposed to GDP. And the staggering number that that came out of, that that I heard was if you evaluate time use for unpaid caretaking, unpaid childcare, elder care, all of those things, they log in at the largest segment of the economy, then followed by finance, which is currently under the GDP only model, the largest. And, you know, she makes the case whether it's the market forces or government. How can you accommodate for 2 thirds the largest part of your your society if you don't even know it's there?

Vinny Tafuro: 27:47

And it just floored me when I heard that.

Paula Seymour: 27:49

Right. And and, you know, I I think her work is especially relevant today, especially, as COVID 19 pandemic highlighted the essential yet undervalued nature of, caregiving work and and much of which is unpaid or underpaid. And and and those people, I call them the silence workers. Right? Their their voices were Absolutely.

Paula Seymour: 28:12

They weren't counted, you know, counted for nothing, you know, as as her book was also titled Counting for Nothing. Mhmm. And and I really think her her strong voice for for equity and and Lincoln to feminist economics, especially when we're looking at these caregivers because traditionally, they they fall in the realm of women. Right? And Yeah.

Paula Seymour: 28:34

And, women holding these roles and, recognizing that that that volunteer work and is is performed largely by women, which is gender equality or inequality. Right? And one of the United Nations sustainable development goals that that we really need to work towards making stronger and and better. So, I think the COVID 19 allowed us to see a lot of fractures in society that exist, and and one of them being, of course, the economic system and and, again, focusing on Marilyn Warren's work of of this undervalued nature of of caregiving work.

Vinny Tafuro: 29:16

Yeah. I really look at that as an event. You know, if if the crash of 29 was our financial disaster that created GDP because that metric came out in the wake of of COVID or of of the, crash.

Paula Seymour: 29:32

Right.

Vinny Tafuro: 29:32

And then you fast forward and you look at the environmental crisis of the sixties. You know? I what was it? Cleveland's port water was on fire, the smog around New York, like, the environmental crisis, and then really capstoned with the Exxon Valdez in the late eighties, all and the ozone layer, all those things. We had that crisis.

Vinny Tafuro: 29:52

And all of a sudden now, you know, 30, 40 years later, we have carbon credits and all of these ways of measuring carbon. And I really do believe the alignment of our access to data with the crisis of the pandemic, we now had our social capital crisis. And I think it's gonna take us a while to get there, but I think, you know, again, design thinking and economics and and going, we can measure this, we can do it, that that we will talk about social capital in the next decades the way we started talking about environmental capital, in the last 50.

Paula Seymour: 30:28

You just highlighted it so so so well that that that's sustainability. Right? And and those are perfect examples of how unsustainable we are or have been for 100 of years, and and we're just recognizing the the social capital and the importance of it just now in the 21st century. And, you know, and and still it's such a hard thing to to really you know, how do you know? To me, it just is mind boggling that that we cannot understand the importance of people, you know, and Well

Vinny Tafuro: 31:01

and so much of that was taken for granted, and I think that's, you know, our our our third person, Raine Eisler, you know, really gets into that because, you know, it was taken for granted that, well, you had a church or or, you know, there there was a there was a religious part that was social safety net, and it was a patriarchal family. So there was a woman that stayed at home. Like, you just had these assumptions that were, you know, safe at the time, that some of these models were built, but but they're not reality anymore. And I think I think Eisler's work really gets into that well in that kind of macro that macro historian, shift that she's talking about.

Paula Seymour: 31:37

Yeah. And and, you know, she talks in in her book, the chalice and the blade, the, you know, she introduces partnership versus domination framework and how cultural systems shape everything from gender roles to economic structures and and, you know, even the partnership versus domination, nature. Right? And and, you know, the the importance of, we're dominating not only the human being and and not being in partnership with with each other. We're so divisive as as humans, but we're doing the same thing.

Paula Seymour: 32:09

Humans are dominating or trying to dominate nature and, and and, you know, really, showing that that, you know, the gender roles, you know, continuing, in in regards to these economic structures and, you know, centering, you know, she's talking about, again, partnership versus domination and and centering, you know, she she suggests the economy around caring for people and the planet. Again, which is what a lot of these great, you know, thinkers, pioneering thinkers have been talking about. And she also highlights, you know, a lot of what Marilyn Warren was saying too about the caregivers and, and, whether it's for children or for the elderly or for the environment that that that has to be the foundation or societal health and true prosperity to to occur. So, yeah, so

Vinny Tafuro: 33:04

Absolutely. Eisler's work fascinates me. I I got to, talk with her earlier this year, and, you know, she she really has started introducing and trying to she she she's come up with terms, and and one of them is looking at, you know, not calling it domestic violence anymore, but calling it family family violence, because domestic kind of dehumanizes it. It's in the domicile. It's part of the house, as opposed to its family violence.

Vinny Tafuro: 33:33

And this idea that that at that level, it reinforces the patriarchal society and that, this partnership has to happen at all different levels. And I just think her work's gonna be profoundly impactful over the

Paula Seymour: 33:48

years. Continue. Absolutely. Which Yeah.

Vinny Tafuro: 33:51

Yes.

Paula Seymour: 33:53

She's, all of these these women, and and I love that you're bringing women into, the the field of economics. Vinny. So thank you for for for highlighting these pioneering thinkers. And Well

Vinny Tafuro: 34:05

and that was you know, it was a lot of serendipity and then also, you know, the the availability of information now. Waring and Rayworth, who we're gonna talk about next, like, all had TED Talks. So, like, the accessibility, you know, and this is that going back to our 3rd tenant on on litter on literacy is making these concepts accessible. You know? Kate Raworth is, you know, out of Oxford, so she's our contemporary out of the group.

Vinny Tafuro: 34:32

Waring and Eisler are both still producing, but they are definitely the elders of the field. Whereas, Raworth, I know I saw an interview with her and, Henderson, and she was inspired by Henderson's work when she was a child, about measuring the economy differently. And, you know, she describes the economy now using, this market model that was come up with. It was, the Rostovian takeoff model for the economy in 1960 that the economy just takes off like a plane. And she said, but this plane is like none other because it can never be allowed to land.

Vinny Tafuro: 35:10

And this is the the the dilemma we're in right now. The crisis is if we keep using GDP, GDP has to keep increasing. And I just love that, you know, her doughnut economics model kind of changes that, quite a bit. How how much have you had much interaction with with Rayworth's work?

Paula Seymour: 35:28

Yes. Yeah. And and I showed that I I probably use her more than, and and, of course, Hazel is is of course, part of of everything I do. But I I pull in, and and I think it's probably because it's a more progressive model that might meet the, needs or students might understand it just a little bit better. But but her framework is is building, off of, you know, Hendersons and Wearing's and and Eisler's.

Paula Seymour: 35:55

And her revolutionary model, again, like like the others, visualizes the balance between, you know, meeting essential human needs and staying within within the planetary boundaries. And, you know, and and she's still, like the others, critiquing traditional economics for its obsession with with growth, which is really an extractive, again, model. And, you know, I think she calls it, quote, unquote, 20th century hangover. So we're we're in this

Vinny Tafuro: 36:25

Absolutely.

Paula Seymour: 36:26

Instead of emphasizing regenerative systems, we're we're focused on these these expensive and destructive, systems to people and the planet. So we're we're way out of of of boundaries.

Vinny Tafuro: 36:39

Yeah. And that's, you know, when I when I first you know, when I really started digging into her work, and I I I cited her work in my my one of my articles, The fact that, you know, you would think Kate Raworth at Oxford, she's an Oxford economist, but she's nowhere near as the economics department. You know, she's kinda buried down in the sociology department. It's like, why are they not at this at a university that has so much clout? Why is that?

Vinny Tafuro: 37:02

And it's again, ties to how do we how do we unite all of these thinkers and these ideas, under one umbrella. And and I I really hope design thinking kinda can be that umbrella because that's exactly what all of these people have done, is applied design thinking to economic to the economy and society.

Paula Seymour: 37:22

Importance of interdisciplinary studies. You know, we we can't solve problems with with you know, a a problem is is created at the level at the same level, you know, and and to solve a problem, we need different ways of thinking and being. So, you know, if we have economists trying to solve, you know, that think you know, and and, of course, there's different ideologies and theories in in the realm of economics. But if if we want something different, we've gotta think differently. And and sometimes that means pulling in, you know, especially in the world of innovation.

Paula Seymour: 37:55

It's you know, we we we we need different thinkers. We need people from from different backgrounds and and understandings and and ways of knowing subjective and objective ways of knowing and and finding that balance of of, you know, what it looks like to, you know and and and, of course, critics are gonna come in and and say, Benny and Paula, you're no economist. What are you doing talking about this? And we're gonna look at Kate Greatworth and Hazel and, you know, and and all of these individuals. So but but that's that mindset.

Paula Seymour: 38:26

Right? If if we don't get out of that way thinking that only an economist has the answer for the economy, then we're not gonna have these paradigm shifts. But, you know and it takes an economist sitting down with a sociologist and an anthropologist and a business person and and a, historian and a politician to to find these answers. Right? So we

Vinny Tafuro: 38:48

have Absolutely.

Paula Seymour: 38:49

You know, outside Well,

Vinny Tafuro: 38:51

that's why I I love, you know, some of the application that's happened now, you know, and we'll go, like, you know, the the movements. You know, I got involved when I when I first published my book corporate empathy. I stumbled on the conscious capitalism organization and created the Florida chapter of conscious capitalism. We helped get b corp legislation passed in the state of Florida. And I just think that movement is on the micro level.

Vinny Tafuro: 39:15

You know? Individual companies, individual stakeholders, and organizations on how to operate within this more holistic sustainable system. And, you know, I think you're you're in in what you're teaching, you know, how are you brushing up against some of these things at kind of the the micro level?

Paula Seymour: 39:34

In in in regards to these these new systems like the b corp, is big. I actually just had my students go through a sustainability change maker certification. So it was a micro credentialing in my managing social and financial returns class and the b lab Switzerland actually flew in and, they came in and and did, again, the training with my students and and really, you know, looking at materiality and and the importance of, you know, looking at what's important in regards to sustainability to to really bring about that that change. So so the b corp is is a, you know, I I think a really important education program that that really teaches, businesses how to balance profit with purpose, and they're really cultivating economic literacy, amongst business leaders and employees alike that that are really, again, you know, bringing consciousness to the importance of economic literacy and and really And I

Vinny Tafuro: 40:36

think that transparency that B Corps brings, I wanna stop on that because, you know, the the the certified corporations, they they B Corps, they they publish their score. You click on their score, and it takes you to the page on on B Lab's website to say, this is where they were for government governance, you know, social impact, environmental impact. And I think that transparency is educating people whereas I think, you know, we've companies have used labels so long to confuse the consumer as opposed to truly educate. And I think that's a big difference.

Paula Seymour: 41:11

And and, you know, the the the b corp is it's, you know, it's something the business chooses to do. Right? They're they're saying, I'm accountable. I'm responsible, and and I'm going to be transparent with with the sharing of of what I'm doing, and they're not scared. Right?

Paula Seymour: 41:27

So so there's, of course, greenwashing in in the world of of being sustainable. There's also green hushing. So a lot of businesses are really, really fearful of, you know, saying that they're doing these things and becoming b certified because, you know, there's always the the critics that are gonna come in and, you know, find something, you know, wrong, which again is is is something that's starting to halt the process, but you have to be a trailblazer. Right? You you have to Exactly.

Paula Seymour: 41:55

Groups have to say, you know what? I'm doing this and I wanna be better, and I know this is what I'm not doing right. And and saying that and but I'm gonna work on it and, you know, and and really, based on that BIA, the impact assessment score, they can continue to grow and and and make those changes in regards to people and the environment. So I think it's a really, really important movement that, has been redefining business. And I think, you know, where we're gonna start seeing things shift, it's it's going to be even more important for businesses to stand up and really take the initiatives to do what's right for people and the planet and, yeah, and and be there.

Vinny Tafuro: 42:38

Well, I'm hoping too that that, you know, the institute here that for economic evolution can play a role in that by telling helping those b corps tell their story. Currently, you know, there's not a whole lot out there to help convince, you know, companies that are, you know, owners and founders of companies that are considering it. They're still gonna make a gut heart reaction or or decision, which is is great. I mean but I'd love to see it get to a point where it's just another smart business decision as opposed to this leap of faith because there's just not a whole lot of data yet on that. And I think, you know, as as a as a think tank and as a group, I think, you know, the academics that we bring together can help those businesses do that and tell their

Paula Seymour: 43:26

story about that. Is happening. There's there's I think it it's that that movement is and it's a movement. That b corp is a movement, and it's a movement for for for, you know, bringing good in business. And and and and again, I I I I can only see it getting stronger.

Paula Seymour: 43:44

I I really see the the movement because, again, people or businesses are realizing that they can thrive while prior prioritizing purpose over problem. Problem. Yeah. And, you know, it it's everybody's like, there's no way. That's warm, fuzzy.

Paula Seymour: 43:59

That's that's crazy feeling. It's it's it's emotion. It's not fact. You know, and and that's where the data comes in. Right?

Paula Seymour: 44:07

Wait. Well, yeah. You can. If if, you know, you pay your people their wages. What a concept.

Paula Seymour: 44:12

And, you know, and and you do the right thing and you take care of them and you provide a clean working space that that is, you know, free of toxins and germs and, you know, your it it just makes sense. It just makes sense.

Vinny Tafuro: 44:28

Yeah. Well, this has been a great conversation. I think, we're probably coming to a close. I wanna talk a little bit about the Institute for Economic Evolution and our methodologies with with with where we're going here. And it's really you know, we we look at it as, you know, find, cultivate, and share is kind of our our pyramid from the top down is, you know, connecting design centered economic proposals and solutions, which, Paul, you and I have talked about here today.

Vinny Tafuro: 44:58

And then the next level is is cultivating those, refining those ideas through collaboration and funding and real world evaluation to then put some out there. And then the final one is sharing that information. You know, making that economics accessible through storytelling and learning experiences to really kind of allow people to to become familiar and play with this stuff and and become comfortable with these concepts and people.

Paula Seymour: 45:23

And and, Vinny, I I think it's so important what you do too because economic literacy supports democracy. Right? So a a well informed citizenry is essential for a function in democracy, and, economic decisions affect education, it affects healthcare, it affects infrastructure, it affects environmental policies, and citizens need this literacy to be able to hold leaders accountable and to to make the, right decisions, for example, for voting, on tax reform, or climate initiatives, and to really help be part of the economic decision making and force institutions and businesses and governmental agencies to be transparent so that we can trust in governance. And, and like you said, the the digital age. Right?

Paula Seymour: 46:16

It's it's literacy is extending. We have access to this information. So it's it's really important, you know, what you're doing with design economics and and really getting that final piece out there.

Vinny Tafuro: 46:29

Thanks. And and, you know, we're looking and that's that's really so this is our pilot episode coming out in December of 2024. And, we'll be back in the New Year with a with a first season, that will be coming out. We'll be talking about some of the pioneering thinkers we talked about today as well as a whole bunch of other topics related to design economics and how we can move the field forward. You know, if you wanna connect with us, we're available on Instagram, Facebook, or our website.

Vinny Tafuro: 46:59

Social handles are all evolveeconomics and the website is evolveeconomics.org. There will be show notes that you can go to as well that will have links and, more information as well. Paul, I wanna thank you for being here on our pilot episode and look forward to having you back. It's been a great conversation.

Paula Seymour: 47:16

Yeah, Vinny. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Good luck to you.

Vinny Tafuro: 47:19

We hope you enjoyed this pilot episode of the Design Economics podcast. We will be back in January with a full first season and look forward to many wonderful and engaging conversations. You can find the Design Economics podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. Please check out our show notes on our website, designeconomics.io. The Design Economics podcast is produced by the Institute For Economic Evolution, and I am your host, Vinny Tafuro.

Vinny Tafuro: 47:41

Thank you for listening.