080 | Philip Duff | The Impact of Cultural Factors on Market Trends

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this episode of the Maffeo Drinks Podcast, Chris Maffeo discusses the dynamic nature of the drinks industry with guest Philip Duff.

The conversation highlights the challenges large companies face in adapting to market demands and the agility of smaller brands to innovate.

The discussion delves into the importance of grassroots brand building and understanding consumer behavior, using examples like Peroni's success in Scandinavia and Mezcal's rise.

Maffeo and Duff critique the reliance on standard research reports and emphasize the value of unconventional insights.

The episode concludes with insights into risk-taking in large firms and the significance of sustaining brand relevance through continuous market engagement.

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

00:28 Big Companies vs. Small Brands

02:38 Case Study: Peroni's Success in Scandinavia

05:40 The Impact of Mexican Cuisine on Agave Spirits

07:46 Challenges in Big Firms and Market Research

13:14 The Art of Brand Building

24:00 The Mezcal Trend and Luxury Marketing

26:39 Understanding Consumer Trends

31:38 Conclusion and Farewell

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Phillip Duff

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Philip Duff

Philip Duff Show

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

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Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

I'm Chris Mafia, your host and
fellow drinks builder.

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episode transcripts.
Now let's dive into today's

episode.
Like these companies are like

cruise ships or like container
ship.

They can ship so much, but they
can't turn.

They're not agile, they can't
invent stuff.

Little brands are more like
speed boats.

The thing with big companies is
that they want to be sure, you

know, like they all say, you
know, nobody was fired for

hiring McKinsey, you know, like
or for buying you IBM or

whatever that was.
That is the thing that you know,

like when they you know they do
focus groups and then they go

directly at scale, they spam, I
call it spam in the market.

You know like 1 bottle in every
single buy you ever know in that

city will have that bottle.
You know, The thing is that then

it may be too late because you
can only do a first impression

once, you know, So if that
bottle becomes the dusty bottle

on the shelf, then you're
basically fucked.

You know, so instead of like
doing kind of like small

movement and say, you know,
let's try different things and

let's do let's send this what
team first in the in the market

and then let's get the army.
And this is the thing that, you

know, mess things up a lot of
time because all of a sudden

like becomes like, OK, doesn't
work because I wanted to work in

within six months or a year.
And you cannot, you simply

cannot do that in the, in this
business because it's a little

bit like the Stock Exchange.
No, you know, past performance

doesn't tell anything about
future performance of a stock.

You know, it's the same thing.
Sometimes I'm asked by people on

LinkedIn and so on, you know,
put in more case studies.

You know, what is a successful
Brett?

And I'm always reluctant to say
that, you know, because I've

been in big companies.
I know the power of, you know,

BS PowerPoint presentations.
You know, you never really get

the real story.
You know, when there is like a

press release or anything, you
know, there's always some detail

and it's, it doesn't have to be
like a lie or anything that

people want to hide.
It's just like a bias elements

that you don't find in, in, in a
PowerPoint presentation.

I always bring the example of my
past experience in Peroni, for

example.
No, I used to sell Peroni in

market Peroni in Scandinavia.
You know, it, it was a success.

It was a real success.
So not to diminish what I've

done or what the team has done,
but it was the perfect storm

because we launched in 2010 and
it was exactly like after the

2008 credit crunch.
So a lot of the Scandi bankers,

as I called them, we're moving
back home.

They were fleeing London after
2008, you know.

So 2000 and nine, 2010, they
were going back to Stockholm,

Oslo, Helsinki, Copenhagen and
you name it now.

So, you know, without knowing
that, you know, we were just

implementing a normal strategy,
which is like, you know, you go

to the right places in the right
cities.

So it wasn't thoughtful, but we
were doing the exact same thing.

I was doing it in Paris, I was
doing it in Barcelona, in

Istanbul, in Athens and Dubai.
Some countries, you know, boomed

much faster than others, but we
were doing exactly the same

thing.
It was always me.

He was the same guy.
So of course this distributors,

you know, that are better than
others and so on.

But my speculation, and this is
only my speculation, so you will

not find in any PowerPoint
presentation, is that the Scandi

bankers, you know, were used to
drink petrol in London because

the brand was huge there.
We just have to make it

available in the five bars
around the financial districts

of Oslo, Stockholm, Helsinki and
so on.

And all of a sudden there was
instant demand because the brand

had been building demand,
building demand in London.

So you just had to come through
that demand.

So you, you were skipping one
phase, which is building demand

in Stockholm because you don't
have to build it because it's

already there.
And then with the bankers

drinking it, then all of a
sudden, and all the other people

are kind of like following.
But you will never find it in a

PowerPoint presentation because
it's not an official.

I mean, I don't have evidence
for this.

You know, it's my love for
history and geopolitics and the

the kind of conversation we
always have with you that takes

to me the same thing for Dubai.
You know, like lots of Brits

move to Dubai, perfect storm.
You know, they know the brand

from the homeland.
And that's why I always talk

about win in your home for home
serves before venturing

overseas.
You know, like win in one market

and then capitalize on those
people because there there will

be, you know, you win in Italy,
then you win, you know, you move

to whatever London or Britain
and then when you make it big

there, then you have Italians
and Brits to play with that know

your brands, you know, rather
than spamming like 255 markets

from the second year and
basically you have to start all

over again in each market.
So this is, these are the kind

of things that are so
fascinating for me in the

industry now.
And another point is I'm, I'm

having a bit of back and forth
on LinkedIn on, on some points,

like I don't know if she
noticed, like there's a lot of

stats nowadays with mezcal and
agave and explaining how agave

is booming and so on.
And everybody talks about

celebrity tequilas, you know,
But for me, there is another

element to that, which is the
traditional and social element.

Mexican cuisine has been
booming.

Mexican chefs have been
travelling and going everywhere.

Mexican bartenders have been
travelling everywhere and

working everywhere.
You know, a lot of the Americans

were during COVID where
everything was on lockdown.

They went to Mexico, you know,
they were going to the, and to

all those places and to Mexico
cities.

And they were renting flats
there, living there, drinking

there and so on.
So all of a sudden there is this

element of kind of like demand
creation that nobody thinks

about because it's, it's not
written in any book.

It's like what you see on APDF.
It's just like an hockey stick

of a Galle.
And then you see all the

celebrity tequilas.
And I say, you see what what

celebrity does to the to the
category.

It makes it boom.
But for me, of course there is

an element, but it's not only
that, it's like, let's look at

it from a counter intuitive
perspective.

And there is a big element of
places that it doesn't matter if

there's no Mexican places in a
certain city, there will be

American tourist people who have
gone to Mexico and live in that

city.
You know, maybe they will not

beat so many Mexicans working in
kitchens or in bars.

So it's super fascinating, you
know, like what what you see

about this kind of categories
and how to really digging and

even though with some
speculation sometimes like I do,

you know, but gives you another
element, another layer of

complexity to put in and to
analyze.

Well, I mean your point about
dandy bankers moving back is as

valid as any $50,000 research
report.

My friend David Dockman who
wrote the excellent book That

Shit Will Never Sell and he's
the ideas man behind Bailey's

anchor rates hand the Fingleton.
He says.

You know these research reports
cost so much money, but if you

follow their recommendation and
the brand's not a success, they

won't give you a refund.
As you know, in Europe we don't

have majors and minors in
university degrees as they do in

America.
But if we did, my minor of my

marketing degree would be market
research.

And market research has
limitation.

It's much better to have mall
gorilla like insight.

But you're 1 about the Scandi
bankers, right?

Because it costs nothing to test
it out.

It costs nothing to push the
brand in five bars and see what

happens.
And that's literally where this

starts from.
You essentially are looking for

people to create bandwagons and
jump on them.

You shouldn't have gear
guardrails about what your brand

is and what it isn't.
But those clear guardrails give

you a whole lot to play.
And if you don't have a brand

book, if you don't have
definitions of what you are,

what you're not, you'll spend
every day making a million

decisions that are unnecessary,
using up your brain power when

you could just be looking at the
brand book or saying, OK, our

bullseye customer is a non
boundary lady who drives an Audi

in Bushwick and she wears A tag,
not her Rolex.

She vacations in going up Bali.
What would she think of this?

Or they right that your insights
is as valid as anything else.

The real problem would be firms
is that they're not.

You're not allowed to take risk
fitting.

Everything is listed on stock
Marcus.

All the big decision makers are
publicly listed officers, you

know they have to have pods of
on the than regular medical

etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
And the industry used to be a

little bit more Rock'n'roll than
I did.

You'd have a CEO.
The last great through

Rock'n'roll CEO was Paul Walsh
at Diageo and he would say OK,

we're going premium or we're
going tequila.

All of Diageo's success with
Agave is because of decisions

Paul Walsh made in some cases
almost 20 years ago.

And everybody shit all over him
for those decisions.

He got his ass handed to him for
eight years in shareholder

meetings until Diageo really
began growing to be the mega

company that did this net and,
you know, the most successful

Drake company the world's ever
seen.

But for years everybody said,
oh, why don't you go more into

beer?
Why don't you go more into wine?

And he sold off almost there.
Inspire assets there he gambled

everything on super premium
liquor and especially a

gathering had paid off
incredibly well.

We don't have a lot of Paul
Walsh's anymore.

A Paul Walsh would understand
you've got to make a few gamble.

It kind of like investing.
If you have €100,000 and you can

invest us in 10 funds, one of
them should be risky, Three of

them should be very safe.
Four of them should be somewhere

in the middle.
That's actually how you get the

best returns.
One of my, well, it's not my

favorite statistic, I wish it
didn't exist, is if you read the

Drinks International
Millionaire's call, the data

isn't completely objective
because the brands submitted

themselves, but it's the 143
liquor brands in the world that

sell more than 1,000,009 meter
cases every year.

Of those 143, only three were
created in the last 50 or 60

years.
One of his berries, one of them

is Malibu, another brand that
David Bluckman was involved

with.
And the third one, all credit to

a family owned business, Brown
Foreman, Woodford Reserve.

Every other million case brand
was acquired, not built by a big

company.
And that's I guess it's just the

way the people do business now.
But it's a massive inefficiency

on their part because big firms
have both the assets and in some

cases the people can take plots
of risks and do so as well as

selling an extra 3% of Johnny
Walker every year.

I'm not suggesting they go
completely into new product

developments, but to sort of set
up structures whereby people can

take risks.
You do see that the big firms

now have incubators like the I
Just Got to Steal Ventures and

Prolorn.
Perno used to have new brands,

ventures, they don't have it
anymore.

And those are theoretically ways
in which you can experiment and

innovate, but a lot of the time
in the incubator you've got

Diageo or Perno people advising
entrepreneurs.

And here's another hard truth.
You can be the best brand

manager in the world, running a
million case brand and growing

it by 10% a year and not have
any idea how to sell the 1st 100

cases of a new brand.
This is the biggest problem that

I bring the example of the gym
often, which I should do a

little bit more of.
It's, you know, like you either

grow up fit, you know, as a kid,
so you do sport as a kids, so

you grow with the muscular body
or you are, you know, skipping

exercise until you are 20 and
then you have to go and get

fits.
But The thing is that either you

do it and you grow sustainably,
which I call bottom up brand

building or you are a huge brand
and then you have to go back to

square one.
Like on the Monopoly table game,

you know, you go back to square
1 and you have to start all over

again.
Because if you have bypassed you

know the on trade or whatever,
you know when you are huge and

scale and you are declining year
on year, there is something you

know, you haven't spoken to
those, let's call it the the 1st

100, the 1st 1000 cases in a
city that enables you to to

grow.
And those first 1000 cases are

happening every year.
You know if you're selling 1000

cases, those are the ones.
But then when you sell 10,000,

you still have to take care of
the 1000, the core 1000.

And then when you sell
1,000,000, you still have to

take care in each city of those
first 1000.

Because those are the ones that
you know, the Bushwick kind of

people, you know, like the
people that keep the brand

relevant because they are the
people that that do more dinners

out than average.
They go out more than average

and they change because the
Bushwick person, you know that

you highlighted before, all of a
sudden it starts to be like 5055

sixty.
So there would be somebody else.

There will be now on their 20s.
And you have to appeal to those

people.
But it's not by revolutionizing

what you're doing.
And this is like part of the

presentation that I did on Gen.
Z at Bar Convent last year.

I, I brought that example of the
gates at Bar Convent in Berlin.

You know, when you enter and you
badge to the the scan, you are

one of those gates, you know,
with a brand you need to patch

people entering through your
gate.

But there's, I don't know, 20
gates or how many there are like

there, you know, like it's not
that everybody will pass through

your gate, but you have to
enable people to actually

understand what you are standing
for.

It's useless that you either
catch them at the entrance or

you kind of like walk around
trying to hunt them in Bar

Convent, which is good luck, you
know, to try to find someone in

Breitbart Convent that's there,
but you know, you haven't seen

them coming in.
So this is the thing like with,

you know, new generations coming
into the game, you have to stick

to it.
And I bring the example of the

Hendrix gin with cucumber or the
Margarita would control

whatever, you know, like all
these kind of examples that I

always bring because those are
the one.

It's not that all of a sudden
Gen.

ZI don't know whatever.
Like the trend would be on a

some random report that they
don't drink Margarita anymore

and then all of a sudden you
start doing a non alk Cointreau

because the Gen.
Z are drinking less.

And it's like fuck it, you know?
It's just like you are sticking

to what works.
And then you have to recruit

those people anyway, you know,
then you can do other things

with other brands accommodating
different needs to the earlier

point about growth
opportunities.

But it's not that you
revolutionize your brand.

And this is what happens in most
companies now.

No managers are leaving the
company.

Knowledge is lost.
You know, huge knowledge is

lost.
There's there's a huge knowledge

gap in generation.
And I've been through so many

handovers in my career.
Either I did it or people did it

to me.
They usually last like a day or

two, you know, like they give
you a, you know, a drive with

five gig PowerPoint presentation
as I like.

Good luck.
It's all there.

I'm leaving for competition Cha
cha.

If you are a we go back to the
beginning of the conversation.

If you are not into the game,
challenging yourself, learning,

studying, talking to people,
talking to bartender, talking to

other people in the industry,
learning this to reading books,

newsletters and your name.
Listen to podcast.

By the way, you miss out all
these information.

Well, I think one of the
problems with the larger

companies is that if they're
doing new product development or

repositioning, the first thing
you've got to do is benchmark.

You've got to look at other
things people have done.

So you're already starting by
being derivative.

You're copying other people.
Sometimes it can be useful if

you copy people in other
segments.

So if you're in spirits and you
look at beer, or if you're in

wine and you look at spirits and
then you Commission a research

report, you spend 10,000 or
50,000 or $100,000 on that.

I The function of the 1st 2 is
really just to cover your arse

and the problem in that you've
got people creating brands who

have to get everything signed
off by their boss and that is

the kiss of death.
If you're not able to create a

brand from scratch, even if the
budget's only €50,000, you might

as well not do it at all.
Because what tends to happen at

big companies is everybody wants
to have an idea or a suggestion.

They want their fingerprints on
this project just in case it's a

success, right?
So before the product ever gets

out in the market, it's already
frankly had its balls cut off.

It has no chance.
Like in 2022 there was a brands

of lower alcohol flowery
botanical vodkas from Bacardi

called Petal and Plume.
I don't know if you remember

this.
No, no I don't.

And the whole press release was
like, we have a female team of

scientists and distillers who
developed petal and plume for

the female pal.
It was foul and it's soul singly

sexist that the bronze as far as
I can tell, died off almost

before it was ever launched.
But it never have got to that

stage.
I guarantee you there were 10

meetings where they presented
this idea and in every one of

their meeting there were several
people who thought, well this is

bullshit but they just didn't
speak out because why should

they?
It's not their project.

Doesn't matter if it fails.
Like in the Diageo company, they

rotate you every 18 months.
It's only important to start

project benchmark, get some
research, and follow procedure.

The brand doesn't actually need
to be a success or sell, just so

long as you follow the process.
And eventually if you do that

right, you'll get to work on a
brand like Smirnoff or Johnny

Walker, which are so big it's
practically impossible to fuck

them up anymore, and you'll
retire working for that branch.

That's it, That's the truth.
I love that, but that's but.

That's only three big firms have
created million case brands in

the last 60 years.
You know I wrote a post some

time ago I should I should re re
repost it that you know it was

about People should incentivize
doing PowerPoint presentations

with fuck ups.
You know, like tell me your fuck

ups on this project so that
people will avoid them in the

future instead of swiping it
under the carpet.

No, because that would make them
save so much money.

You know, like I incentivize
that, you know, say, OK Philip,

thanks to you and your UPS of
that brand last time, you know,

he's managed to launch
successfully because he avoided

those exact mistakes that he
would have done thanks to you.

So you actually partly owner of
the success of Chris's launch,

but instead, you know, your
presentation would be like all

polished and beautiful.
And let's not say that.

Let's not say that kind of
saying.

And then basically I end up
doing exactly the same mistake

over and over again.
And my, my inbox is full of

corporate people that subscribe
to the newsletter, you know,

read my post and so on and write
me privately saying like 100%

agree with what you're saying.
But maybe you will never see a

like on those posts from them
because there's too much at

stake by lighting a post on
LinkedIn when I say something

like this now.
But that's at the same time is

the the curse and the beauty of
the industry because it, it

keeps reshuffling things and you
cannot copy.

I'll always joke now because I
say even if people stole like

that, there is this thing with
big companies now that they cut

you off the network and you
know, like they take your laptop

when you're leaving and so on.
It's like, honestly, even if I

took all those giga of data, I
wouldn't be able to do anything

with it because that is so
specific to those years and to

that industry that I cannot just
take the success story of Jack

Daniels or Hendrik or Tanqueray,
whatever and replicate it

because that's not how it works.
Because in the meantime, the

countries are different, people
are different, generations are

different, competitors are
different.

And you cannot have it like
one-size-fits-all.

It's not that you've got the
recipe book that will save you

for the future and all.
And this is what is often

misunderstood is like, oh, let's
hire Philly because he's the guy

who launched blah, blah, blah.
You know, so he will do the

game, he will do it again.
It's like hiring a footballer

you know, just because he scored
100 goals in Bundesliga and then

you bring them to Premier League
and you expect them to to score

another hundred goals.
No, I think that's accurate.

And like you say, this drinks
industry, it looks like a

science, but it's actually an
arch, right?

And essentially it's because it
comes down to people and working

out what people want is
difficult.

And the best way to be
successful is to try lots of

different thing like B Kamal,
agile, nimble.

And I'll may think about the,
the values that a trend might

represent.
I'll give you an example.

I remember when bartenders
didn't give a shit about mezcal,

right?
Not in the UK, not in the US,

not in Mexico.
One guy, an artist, in fact, Ron

Cooper, moved to Oaxaca and he
started doing his art.

He was painting and sculpting
and doing things with fabrics

and he would work really hard
for like 3 days and then he

would get in this truck and he
would drive into the most remote

countryside, even by Oaxaca
standards, and he would just ask

the first person he saw, Donde
este El mejor, where's the best

stuff?
So he's drinking this amazing

mezcal, starts taping it back to
America, telling it eventually

began importing it.
And that was hey, in the

beginning it was incredibly
expensive, 102 hundred, $300.00

a bottle.
It was introduced to bartenders

by spirits, educators and the
fans like, Oh my God, you must

try this.
Oh, it's from a single village,

all this family 3 hours away
from Wahaca, all the backings,

$300.00.
So this actually classic luxury

marketing, if you think about
it, it was just being marketed

to hairy tattooed bartenders at
Tales of the Cop veil and bar

convents and stuff.
And then a few years down the

road, brands like Delma Gay and
Thumbra came out with coptail

menu, speed rail, price variance
in the case of Down the gate,

Vita in the case of Sombra,
Sombra itself.

And suddenly bartenders could
put mezcal in all the coptails.

And that's when we really saw
that uptake happening.

But if you had said to somebody,
I'm selling $300.00 bottles of

mezcal to hairy tattoo
bartenders in Brooklyn and

Silver Lake and East London W
Berlin, they would have laughed

at you, right?
But those values of that mezcal,

that it's connected to a single
family who have this almost

unchanged rural life, though far
from an urban lifestyle of a

rock'n'roll bartender, that
that's what brings the

bartenders back to a sense of
childlike wonder.

And it incorporates other
factors like sustainability and

connection to our history,
Indigenous food ways, all those

same.
So once you are reasonably well

read and you're also out in the
bars all the time and you're

checking out what's happening on
Instagram or whatnot, you can

spot trend and then sit down
with a mezcal and say to

yourself, all right, is there
something behind this?

Like the gluten free vodka, say,
is a Wellness trend.

Rice, the dog friendly vodka
thing could be said to be a

reflection of urban living
because people aren't having

babies anymore.
Instead they're having dogs,

right?
And the dog is, it becomes their

baby.
So not just have I identified a

trend, but what's really driving
that and what it's powerful

thing.
But sustainability or Wellness,

then you've really got
something.

And this was not something that
research reports will be able to

quantify.
A research report is either

telling you things that aren't
true or things that everybody

already knows.
And to be honest, like to add

the layer to what you're saying
is what I, I, I wrote one of my

mini guides online that I, I
call it the selling ring roads,

like the Ring Rd. on, you know,
London or Rome or Milan.

You know, it's mainly European I
must say.

You know, like I think U.S.
cities are, I've got like them

to to an extent, but I use this
traffic example.

Now you know, you want to reach
that customer and you know where

they are.
But first of all, you don't know

where they want to get them.
They may move during the city,

you know, during the day.
Now you know, like they, you see

their location in the morning,
but they may go elsewhere in the

afternoon.
And you have like, I don't know,

5 or 6 streets, you know, routes
that you can take to to reach

them.
And one is a sustainability, 1

is the dog, one is the, you
know, through your previous

example about Tito's now, so it
could be that I don't care about

dogs.
So it's useless that you talk to

me about being dog friendly
because it's a little bit like

an equalizer.
Now you have to be able to

downplay, you know, first of
all, shut up and listen to that

bartender, bar owner, consumer,
and then understand what is

sticking with them.
So is it the gluten?

Maybe it's not the dog, maybe
it's both.

Or is it the sustainability?
Is it the ingredients?

Is it that it's vodka?
Is it that it's is the drink?

Maybe it's the vodka soda that
maybe that person is bored with

the historical vodkas that he
has been drinking.

And those are the things that
you have to be able to play

with, you know?
But what a lot of people do

wrong is that they've got this
kind of like 6 routes and they

want to sneak them all in
regardless, you know, and it's

like, you know, OK, Phillip
hates dogs, but I'm still going

to say, I don't know because I
haven't, you know, asked him and

I haven't listened to him when
he was saying, so I'm going to

sneak in the, the pets friendly
and the dog friendly kind of

thing, which is basically
pushing you off in that example.

So it's this kind of elements
that I think we we forget to, to

play with because when we get a
report, we get all these things.

So the gluten free, the dogs and
all these kind of things.

And then it's like, let's do a
minestrone of the brand.

Let's sneak everything in, but
nothing.

And it doesn't come out in an
authentic way.

You know, it becomes kind of
like a Frankenstein with the

bits and pieces that don't
connect to each other.

And people are busily saying
like, what the hell is this?

You know, this is the biggest
mistake that I see brands do in

that terms just like sticking
everything together, not

listening and that is just like
I just like go my own way with

A1 size fits all kind of kind of
approach.

Well, they've covered their
arse, right?

They, they benchmarked, they
hired the research company and

they're just proceeding on the
base of that.

So their arse is covered and
their bosses arse is covered and

their bosses bosses arse is
covered.

Everyone's happy and eventually
what it is is a complete

contempt for the consumer,
right?

They've they've built this
Frankenstein's monster of a

consumer that doesn't seize
this.

And at best, what this approach
creates is a brand where

everyone says nice, which is the
kiss of death.

If somebody says that brand is
complete shit, at least they

have an opinion.
And if they say this is the most

amazing brand, I'm going to pay
$50.00 to get it shipped from

California because it's not
available here.

That's how good this brand is.
Then you have something.

But if you're just like that
right, that's it.

You should probably scrap the
brand right away.

You don't have a powerful
emotional reaction and you won't

get it with this try to die
monster approach.

Your arse will be covered,
you'll do lots of PowerPoints in

boardrooms and your boss will be
happy and you'll get your bonus,

but the brand won't actually
work.

So this is super it's been super
interesting as usual.

I really look forward to to meet
you again, probably at bar

convent.
If you are if you're going to be

there will fantastic.
So we'll.

Baltic bar show and Vilnius some
perfect serve bar show in

Amsterdam.
Fantastic.

So unfortunately I cannot make
it to those, but Berlin come in

and hopefully we will release
this before that date so that we

managed to get some traction on
that and have some friends and

you know, coming in and visit
Phillip like so for those five

people that don't know you out
of my listeners, can you tell

them where they can find you
when meet you, when you know

work with you?
Indeed.

So for the older listeners, you
can find me on Eck, formerly

known as Twitter.
I'm at Philip Duff, That's

PHILIPDUFF.
On Instagram, I'm at Philip EC

Duff.
That's S for Stephen, so Philips

for Stephen Duff.
And on LinkedIn, Facebook, I am

Philip Duff, so you can find me,
send me a message.

You can tune into my show, which
features an interview with Chris

and Felf, The Philip Duff Show
podcast, which you can find on

Spotify and Apple, and maybe a
few more.

And you'll generally see me
knocking around at Fails the

Coptail Bar Convent, Brooklyn.
Bar Convent, Berlin.

The Vilnius.
Bar show to the Baltic Bar Show,

Perfect Serve, Amsterdam,
anywhere that Old Duff Geneva is

sold or where my clients brands
are available.

Fantastic, Thanks a lot, Philip.
It's been a pleasure as usual.

Like finally we were on the same
time zone for once.

I'll see you soon in Berkham and
Berlin.

Deal.
That's all for today's My Fair

Drinks podcast.
If you found value in this

episode, please leave a review
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Don't forget to check My
fairdrinks.com for all our

resources, including episode
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This is Chris Mafael and
remember that brands are built

bottom U.