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You’re tired.
Not just physically; though yeah, that too.
You’re tired in your bones. In your soul.
Trying to be a steady husband, an intentional dad, a man of God… but deep down, you feel like you’re falling short. Like you’re carrying more than you know how to hold.
Dad Tired is a podcast for men who are ready to stop pretending and start healing.
Not with self-help tips or religious platitudes, but by anchoring their lives in something (and Someone) stronger.
Hosted by Jerrad Lopes, a husband, dad of four, and fellow struggler, this show is a weekly invitation to find rest for your soul, clarity for your calling, and the courage to lead your family well.
Through honest stories, biblical truth, and deep conversations you’ll be reminded:
You’re not alone. You’re not too far gone. And the man you want to be is only found in Jesus.
This isn’t about trying harder.
It’s about coming home.
Hey guys. Welcome back to the Dad's Tired podcast. Today's episode is perfect to listen to with your spouse. Sometimes it can be really hard to bring up conversations about intimacy and about sex, and so this is a great excuse to just send it to your spouse and say, Hey, heard this podcast, or saw this podcast and thought it'd be fun for us to listen to together.
And hopefully it'll spur on some really healthy discussions when it comes to sex and intimacy again with your spouse. Secondly, we have a dad's hired annual retreat coming up in just two months from the day that I'm recording this episode and we are running outta spots. If you had any plans on going to that or you would like to go to that.
It is the highlight of what we do all year at Dad Tired, and I don't want you to miss it. If you go to dad tired.com, click the annual retreat tab. You can get a ticket for that before we sell out. Lastly, I wanna thank my friends over at lifeway for sponsoring today's episode. Lifeway has a resource called the CSB Men's Daily Study Bible.
It is incredibly helpful. I've given this a way to men as a. Gifts, um, men in my life and they've really, really enjoyed it. Um, it's got devotionals in there, study notes. Uh, it, it just all kinds of resources and tools to help you become a better husband, father, and disciple, which is what we're all about here at Dad Tired.
If you're a wife, this is a great gift for your husband or any man in your life. If you're a man and you want to get into God's word daily and have some just resources within the word of God to help bring the word to life. Again, this is one of my favorite bibles to help you do that. If you go to lifeway.com and you use the promo code.
MDB, that's Men's Daily Bible, MDB 50 at checkout. They'll give you 50% off the Bible, which is incredible. So go to lifeway.com, use the promo code MDB 50 and you'll get 50% off you, the Bible. That being said, let's jump into today's episode. 3, 2, 1.
Dr. Julie, I was with, uh, I was, I was in California recently speaking at a conference, and this guy came up to me afterwards and he said. Um, Jared, you and one other podcast are the only podcast I listen to. You two are my favorite, and if I could ever have the two of you in one show, it would be my dream come true.
And I asked him what the podcast was and he mentioned yours, authentic intimacy. And I said, well, why don't I reach out and see if we can make your dreams come true, man. Wow. That's great. So for that one listener, he, this is the best day of his life apparently. Well good. Thanks for making it happen. Yeah, I'm really, really looking forward to it.
I think I'm gonna probably, um, speak on behalf of. Um, a bunch of guys, a bunch of, um, husbands and dads and men, and I'll just ask you all the hard burning questions that we've always wanted to ask our wives, but we never had the courage to. Is that, is that fair? That works. That sounds like a plan. Okay.
Well first, before I jump into all my, uh, questions, uh. Tell us who you are and what you're up to these days. Yeah. Um, so you already shared my name. Um, my background is I am a clinical psychologist and so did clinical work for probably 10 years and then really felt called into ministry. So spent a couple years at focus on the family doing just broadcasting and teaching, and then, hmm.
God, very specifically in 2012 called me to start a ministry called Authentic Intimacy. And so I essentially, the best way to describe it is I help people make sense of God and sex. So talk about everything. Related to sexuality and where's God in the middle of that. So writing books and podcasting and speaking and training Christian leaders to address these issues.
So that's what I do. I've been married to my husband, Mike for almost 30 years, and we have three sons. That's awesome. Yeah. Did you imagine that you would be like the sex expert? Sex expert? No. No. I would've never signed up for it, so, yeah. Wow. Yeah. Uh, doing it now though, would you have signed up for it in hindsight, you know, seeing the fruit, or is it still just like, man, this is a, this is a hard space to be in?
That's a really good question, Jared. Yes, I would because I really feel like at the end of the day I talk. About God. So, yeah. Um, you know, sexual issues are the pain point for people. But we always want to end with where's God and what's your relationship with the Lord? And recognizing that, and this is something I wouldn't have known 10 years ago, but now I understand that sexual issues are always spiritual issues.
And yeah, they're very often a barrier between people and the relationship with the Lord. So if we don't talk about that barrier, then people stay distant from God or there's a wall between them and the Lord. So. I get to be in the space of calling out that wall. You know, like, let's take a look at it, let's start tearing it down.
And uh, what gives me the greatest joy is just to see like, restoration and people's relationship with God and in their, their relationships. So it's definitely worth all the awkwardness and controversy around the topic when that's the place we get to end up. Yeah, I, I imagine you probably see a lot of redemption.
Yeah. Which is really fun and rewarding. Um, but yeah, it is, um, awkward. And you know, there is this kind of, I, I just had a guest on a few weeks ago when we talked about this, that, you know, sex invented by God. It was God's design. It was always God's plan. Um, when he was creating things and said, this is good, this is one of the things that he said, this is good.
Yeah. Um, and yet here we are as Christians, um. Thousands and thousands of years later, and we're still saying this is awkward, this is hard to talk about. If you, based on, I imagine the hundreds, if not thousands of people you talk to about this topic, if you could just paint a, a big, um, stroke of like in general, I think this is where we're at as Christians when it comes to sex.
Yeah. I know that's kind of a hard question to answer, but where do you think we are in general, uh, yeah, around the topic of sex as Christians? Well, we're finally starting to talk about it, which is good. Hmm. But, um, when I try to describe where we are, I like to talk about what narrative we believe. So I think narratives kind of capture the imagination of people and it helps us understand how we actually make decisions on specific issues, um, like struggles in marriage or struggles with pornography or recovery from sexual trauma.
So, um, so I like to talk about three narratives of sexuality. Um, the cultural narrative. The purity narrative and the biblical narrative. And, um, if you say, where is the church today? Where are Christians today on this topic? They by and large believe the culture's narrative of sexuality, which is. Uh, kind of postmodern in saying that you have to create your own narrative.
That it's all about your self-expression, like looking inward in terms of what do you want, what would make you happy, uh, and then kind of christianizing that with God wants you to be happy, therefore. You should have what you want. Um, so if you're unhappy in your current marriage, you should look to get in another one.
Mm-hmm. Or you know, like for single Christians, why wouldn't God want me to have sex? Um, so that's that culture's narrative. And then the church traditionally has countered with a purity narrative, which is very behavioral. And uh, it just says Safe sex for marriage. Doesn't give you a whole lot of context for your struggle and doesn't tell, tell you like how to, um, get out of sin or why you're stuck in it.
And frankly, it doesn't tell you how to have a healthy sex life and marriage. Hmm. Um, and so a lot of Christian guys are struggling with sex and marriage and they have no roadmap for what health and wholeness looks like. Um, so I see Christians kind of ping ponging between. That cultural narrative and the purity narrative and really finding that neither of them answer those deeper questions.
And so, um, the ministry that I run is really based on, okay, what is the true biblical narrative of sexuality? Mm-hmm. And how does that inform. Everything, like, um, how we engage with culture, uh, how we steward sexuality and marriage, how we deal with our wounds and our shame. Uh, that Jesus really wants to transform every aspect of us, not just our behavior.
I. Yeah, that's beautifully said. I think it's something you said in there. There's probably, I can hear the guys on the other side of their speakers or headphones just screaming. Yes. Like, um, I, when you said specifically, I think you said there are a lot of Christian men struggling. I don't remember exactly how you finished that sentence, but, um, I think a lot of guys, and this is just based on, I talk to thousands of guys a year.
Mm-hmm. I sit with many, many men. Every year and um, I think so many guys are just like, I don't know what to do with this topic. Like, I don't know what healthy sexuality looks like in my marriage. Um. I'm trying to serve my wife and be patient and, but I also have this big part of me that feels kind of shameful or Yeah, wrong.
Um, what, how would you describe, like, when you use the phrase healthy, sexual mm-hmm. Sexuality within a marriage, what, what does that even look like? Can you give us a, a mark Sure. First, and then maybe we can kind of go backwards and see Yeah. Where we might be missing or what's stopping us. Yeah. So. It really comes out of, again, that biblical narrative, which is says that sex is really not as much about revealing what's inside of us as it is about revealing God.
So when I first say that, people are like, what in the world does that mean? Yeah. But if we, if we think about in terms of everything God created in the physical and relational world, he created to reveal himself. Would you agree with that? I agree with that, yeah. Okay. So why did God create us? For example, to need to eat and drink every day.
Like we have a physical desire and need to eat and drink every day. Um, why do you think he did that? Yeah, I wondered the same thing as a kid. Like why didn't God just always give it? Like, why do we need food? Uh, yeah. It seems like we should just be full all the time. We don't have to. Um, but part of that, uh, I'm, I'm trying to answer your question on the spot here.
Um, some things that pop into mind would be. Um, I think there's some beauty in food. I think there's something supernatural when we come together and we eat a meal. Mm-hmm. Um, I think there's a lot of beauty in just the variety of food that we get to eat, um, the way that they feel like puzzle pieces from nature that we get to put together.
Yeah. And to eat something. That that all came from God's creation is really fun. I think the dependence of that we are not self-sustained, that we need something to sustain us maybe. Mm-hmm. These are some first things that come to mind. Yeah. I love it. But how far off the mark am I? No, those are great. Um, so you're describing our physical experience with food and the beauty of it and the goodness of it.
But then the scripture would tell us, think about that physical experience of food, and now apply it to the spiritual. Where Jesus said, you know, I'm the bread of life. Mm-hmm. And where he said I am the living water. If you drink of me, you'll never be thirsty again. Mm-hmm. And so God created our physical world so that we would have tangible, experiential, um.
Just kind of lovers to understand the spiritual world. Um, so we understand that with food, like why do you fast? You know, like you go without food to experience a physical hunger that reminds you of your spiritual hunger. Yeah. And so the physical reveals the spiritual, and the same is true with sexuality and marriage.
There are all these wonderful gifts that we experience here on earth related to sexuality and marriage. And there are also challenges, but what we read in scripture is that God created marriage and the one flesh union of a husband and wife to be an earthly picture of the covenant relationship that God has with his people.
I. In the Old Testament, that was a metaphor for God's relationship with the nation of Israel. And in the New Testament, it's a metaphor for Christ's relationship with the church. Mm-hmm. So now I lay that groundwork to say, okay, if God created this to be. An experiential metaphor of his love. Then the way we define a great sex life is by saying, okay, well how does God love, how does he love his covenant people?
Hmm. Um, and I wrote a book called God Sex in Your Marriage That Breaks this down. But really I came up with like four pillars of God's covenant love that apply directly to what healthy sex and marriage look like. Hmm. And so, um. A covenant has a foundation of faithfulness. So everything about your sex life has to be built on faithfulness.
Hmm. Um, when there's a breach in faithfulness, whether that's an affair or, um, pornography use, um, you can't build a great sex life on that foundation. You have to be working on faithfulness. Faithfulness in your character, faithfulness to your vows, or nothing else works. Hmm. Um, the second pillar is that.
Covenant is a journey of intimate knowing, um, that is not just about the physical activity. Um, our covenant with God is meant to be a, a progressive deepening of his intimate knowing of us and us of knowing him. And in a similar way, a great sex life is characterized by the, the journey of sexuality. Like, do you know your wife more deeply and intimately today than you did a few years ago?
Hmm. And, uh. And sometimes when the activity of sex isn't working, it actually is an invitation to that deeper knowing because you actually have to talk about these very vulnerable, intimate things. And the third pillar is that covenant will always require sacrificial giving. That when we look at, you know, God's covenant with us.
He gave Jesus as a sacrifice for us. And then he asks us to daily die to self, um, out of our love for him. And in a similar way, you know, you're so frustrated as a husband because sex isn't working the way you think it should, but otherwise you would never learn what it is to love sacrificially. And so it's kind of baked into the cake that even in a perfect world, husband and wife have incompatibility so that.
You can learn what it is to give of yourself. Like you can't build a great sex life without learning to be unselfish. And then the four, and you're, and sorry, and, and you're talking, um, not just sexually or physically there, but like holistically. Sacrificial, is it right? Just so I'm clear you right? Yes.
Yeah. Um, yeah. Holistically, but also sexually like, um, learning to be patient, learning that, okay, I'm gonna put my wife first mm-hmm. And her desires first. Maybe she's been through trauma, maybe sex is painful. M not going to demand she do for me something that's gonna be harmful for her. Mm-hmm. And so that whole framework.
Yeah. Um. And then the fourth pillar is the one that everybody loves, which is our covenant is also a passionate celebration. Hmm. That in our relationship with God, every week we gather as the bride of Christ to worship him, to turn our attention on him, like. Worship is just adoring God and pouring out our love to him and celebrating him.
And how many times in scripture does it tell us to, to praise, to be joyful, to sing and dance. And so sex within a Marriage is also your covenant celebration. It's your time. With your wife, where you regularly, even in your body, the neurotransmitters that sex produces is a time to celebrate that covenant of love.
And we see that really reflected in the poetry of Song of Solomon. So, um, when people say, what does a great sex life look like? Those are the four things we wanna be working towards. That's so beautiful. I love how gospel centered that is. Um, I, as I wrote down that list, I'm just thinking of the ways that those four things are distorted.
Mm-hmm. Um, so, and I think you really kind of, you gave an overview of those, but you know, just to really nail it on the head here, the, the first one you talked about is faithfulness and, and you gave examples of what it would look like to not be faithful. So either an actual affair or, um, the affair through pornography or mm-hmm.
Or these other ways of just, I'm, you, you don't have all of my sexuality, somebody else does. Right. You don't have all of my heart, somebody else does. Mm-hmm. Um, and that would be a break into that covenant relationship, which we know. All throughout scripture, um, God is pretty passionate about that covenant and the covenant of faithfulness.
Yeah. So I, I really like how, be beautifully you set that up. The second one you talked about intimate knowing. Mm-hmm. Um, and so this is probably where, um, maybe we can tease this out a little bit. Um. I would, Ima I would imagine, I, I don't wanna make generalizations in this conversation and I don't wanna make assumptions based on my own experience, so, mm-hmm.
Forgive me if, if I do, and please correct me, you know, where I might be doing that, but just in my own experience, it seems like, um, this might be one that really might resonate more. Often with women. Yes. Where it's like, I, I don't wanna sleep with you 'cause you don't even really know me right now. Yeah. Um, and it could be like a right now thing from, it seems like, like this week, like you haven't even pursued my heart.
Yeah. Like you don't even, uh, or it could be like a, in general, like you, you've never really pursued, you don't even know the depths of who I am. Why would I give you mm-hmm. My full oneness, which is complete intimacy here. Mm-hmm. Um, and I say that generally speaking 'cause I think that. From the guys I've met, you don't really need to know me to, yeah.
To be intimate with me that night. Like, I don't care what questions you asked me. Yeah. Um, I'm happy to, uh, be intimate with you. So am I off on any of that? No, you're absolutely right. Um, even the way that God designed. The male sex drive and sexual response is very different from how he designed the female.
So, um, for example, the hormone oxytocin, I don't know if you're real familiar with that, but tell me like, I'm five. Yeah. Okay. So oxytocin is a hormone that makes you feel close to someone. Um, researchers would call it the love hormone or the cuddle hormone. And women get tons of oxytocin in their bodies when they have children, and that's what makes them bond so much to that baby.
It's, it's neurochemical. Um, but women also can get. High doses of oxytocin mixed with estrogen throughout their lifetime. So two women can go out for coffee and have a deep conversation and there's oxytocin flowing and they feel like super connected. Mm-hmm. Um, if. You hug your wife, she may get oxytocin or you hold her hand or you massage her back, or you're just looking across a cup of coffee into her eyes.
She's got oxytocin and so she's feeling close to you. Um, but the research shows that men get a huge dose of oxytocin when they experience orgasm, and I think it's 500 times. Um, oxytocin in their blood for the first half hour right after orgasm. 500 times more than their normal Right? Or 500 times more than the woman gets.
More than their normal. Okay. Wow. Okay. So, so when a guy says, I feel close to my wife after we have sex. He might not be able to describe why that is, but it's actually neurochemical. And the longer you're married to the same woman and experiencing sex with her, the more oxytocin you get and the less testosterone like the love him and leave him.
When I stand, you get more ox, more testosterone, which is an aggressive kind of hormone. So God wired it this way. Um. But women don't feel that way. Like they feel like, I want to talk, like I wanna feel connected to you, but a guy's, like, I don't feel connected until we have sex. I've heard that a million times.
Yeah. So there's from many men. Yeah. There's research behind it. So, yeah. Um, which helped me as a wife to understand that this wasn't manipulative on my husband's part. Like, this is just how God wired him. Um, so what do you, what, how do you advise couples who are in that cycle of, I don't wanna have sex with you because I don't feel close to you and I don't feel close to you 'cause you don't wanna have sex with me.
Right. And they're just stuck in that loop. Yeah. I mean, I, I think it really helps women to understand this because what a woman really wants is she wants her husband to pay attention to her, to listen to her, um, to see her as beautiful and. He will do that with oxytocin. And so, you know, women might say, yeah, my, my husband's like way more sensitive.
Mm-hmm. Um, right after we have sex, like for that next day. Um, and there's a reason for it. And so I think it helps, um, it helps a woman understand that. Uh, I think it helps both of them if they can just get some basic education on things like this. Mm-hmm. But also recognizing that the husband has to make some effort too, um, that, you know, he has to stretch a little too.
Mm-hmm. But this whole idea of intimate knowing is something that. As you mentioned, the woman is more likely to pursue for, not just for her sake, but for his sake. So like, um, the couples that will go through some of these classes that we do on this stuff, these guys who are like 40 years old, 50 years old, they'll say, I never realized that sex could be so deep.
Like I always thought of it as something physical, but I'm learning like. I'm learning that it's about intimacy. I'm learning that it's about being vulnerable, like I never connected that before because I don't think it's just the biology. I also think it's the culture's discipleship of men that tells them, yeah, you know, sex is all about the climax.
It's all about your performance. It's all about the physical, and so there's a lot of retraining in even terms of understanding their own longings and desires. Hmm. Do you think that, you mentioned the word vulnerable. Do you think that that's a big part of the intimate knowing that, um, it's not just that a husband isn't pursuing that intimacy, like that intimate knowing of his wife and her heart at a heart level, but it's also his lack of vulnerability?
I. Yeah, for sure. Is it, is it, is it also that his, what her, his wife could be saying, I also want to know you Yes. Intimately. Mm-hmm. And I don't, because you work and you come home and Yeah. Like, you're, you're not letting me in either. Right. And men aren't taught to be vulnerable often. Right. So, you know, like you can go 10, 15 years in your marriage.
And never let your wife know that you have a struggle with pornography. Yeah. Um, or that's, you can, that's, that's, that's most men. Yeah. That I, that I've talked to hundreds of men in that scenario. Yeah. And so they're carrying this. Weight, this temptation, this burden. Even when you're intimate with your wife, you're fighting the thoughts of pornography, but you never tell her, well, that's not intimacy.
Yeah. Or you can go through your whole marriage and never tell her that you were abused as a child. Mm-hmm. You know, because there's so much shame there, or, yeah. You might never tell her how you feel when she rejects you sexually. Yeah. Like how insecure or rejected you feel. You just put on kind of bravado or you pull away and act tough.
Um, and so the, the journey of sexuality is meant to provide. The place to share these really deep things that when a couple does this well, when both a husband and wife do this well, like they come through the valley of that, like knowing each other so intimately that the physical is just like an added blessing, but the journey they've been on is just like the depth of it is beautiful.
Yeah. We get to that number four piece, which is the passionate celebration that, you know, we've done the work of really. I know. Which is. In my opinion why sex outside of marriage is just cheap. It's not at all the way that God designed it. It's this is the reason why God designed it to be in the, the confine, the confinement of marriage.
Because it can, it, it can have its most beautiful fulfillment of what it's was designed to be. Right. Uh, that's why one night stand won't do that. It's why any other, these cheap relationships, it's why pornography won't do that. Mm-hmm. You had mentioned pornography, so many guys, uh. Struggle with this, I think is one of the things that is killing the men of our church.
Yeah. I've seen though, I, I do wanna say I've seen more men find freedom. From pornography in probably the last 18 months that I've like ever seen in my full wow. Life of ministry, almost two decades. Yeah. So God is capturing hearts. Yes. And I've seen a lot of freedom. A lot of that has been men confessing to other men.
Yep. Brother. I'm struggling with this. Mm-hmm. I don't wanna struggle with this. It's been something I've struggled with since I was a kid or a teen. Mm-hmm. I need help hold me accountable. We've seen a lot of victory in that. Um, a lot of guys, I think would say, I'm so scared to tell my wife 'cause it will crush her like she Right.
Uh, this will be the end of our marriage if she knew that I struggled with this. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What would you say to that guy? Yeah, I get that. I mean, I think it's important to process it with other men first. Um, you know, if you come to your wife and you just say, I've got this struggle with pornography, and you're not doing anything about it, that like.
Yeah. It's overwhelming to her. Yeah. It's gonna be overwhelming regardless. Right? Because she's gonna hear that as you have this secret that you've not shared with me is our whole sex life fake. Hmm. Um, you know, like, am I not enough? You don't find me beautiful. And so she's gonna personalize all of that.
Yeah. And she needs space, um, to work through that. You know, a lot of the ministries that are working with men who struggle with pornography also have wives cares care groups, so mm-hmm. Pure desire is a great ministry. Be broken. Another one, Samson Society. And they all have. Groups for the women, um, who need to now navigate what does this look like for our marriage?
Yeah. And so my encouragement to you would be like, tell another man first. Take some steps, um, so that you're kind of prepared to say, Hey, I am already. I'm already committed to addressing this. Yeah. Um, you also might be surprised, some women are very gracious. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, it just, and a lot of women, like after they go through the valley of processing this, they get to that place.
Of especially if they're, if they didn't catch you, but you confessed Totally. You know, like, and I've Yeah. I've seen, I've seen marriages come out so much stronger. Yeah. 'cause it, it gets to that intimate knowing piece. Yep. That's so true. I know all of who you are. I see the brokenness. Yeah. And uh, and the advice you just gave is actually the exact same advice I gave to many men.
Like mm-hmm. Get after this with some guys. Like, really lean into this, confess in mm-hmm. Start to see some healing and progress. That's gonna be easier. I think what you said it's gonna be hard no matter what. Yeah. But I do think that's easier. It's like. Babe, this is something I've struggled with my whole life.
I hate this part. Mm-hmm. The sinful part of me. I, I wanna find healing from it for my sake and for our marriage sake. Um, but I've seen six months, you know? Yeah. Where of healing and I want to come and invite you into that journey with me. Yeah. Um, to help me become the man God's called me to be. Yeah. And that's critical for a few reasons.
First of all, you know, the research shows that, as you already sort of mentioned this, but men heal with other men. Hmm. Um, you can learn to, you need to learn to be vulnerable with other men first, and that vulnerability really, uh, allows you then to have the strength to be more vulnerable with your wife.
In a healthy way. Wow. Um, but also when you've already taken steps, you are saying, this is my problem before the Lord, and I'm not looking for you to solve it. Yeah. And a lot of women have gotten unhealthy messages over the years and they feel like it, it's my fault. I'm not beautiful enough. Where they feel the pressure that I have to have sex with you, so you don't look at pornography.
Mm. And that sets up just a really unhealthy dynamic within the marriage. Yeah. So when you've taken steps to say, you know, like, you're on my team, but this isn't your problem to solve. Yeah. It really frees your wife to do her own work and, um, to be healthy on her side of the marriage. Wow, that's really beautiful.
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Um, and that's gonna give you 25% off sitewide. If you go to bond charge.com and start your wellness journey, you'll start to feel better today. Uh, I want to get to the third one too, just so, so we kind of see how this list gets distorted. Mm-hmm. But you, you talked about require sacrificial giving. I just imagine.
Um, at our worst as men, um, it's, you know, we, we work, we come home, we expect, um, I've been working all day and the house better be clean and that there better be food. And then when I get in bed, like, give me what my physical body needs. Yeah. And I, I just that I'm very much oversimplify men. I think I. That most men who are listening to this podcast are probably not like that because they're listening to this podcast like they're trying to be better husbands.
So just know as a listener, I'm not, I'm, I'm giving you the worst version of a man. I don't think that's really what all of our audience is like. Um, but you know, I think all of us also could admit I've probably been there, I've been pretty selfish in my marriage and, uh, I've wanted a lot for my wife and, and in return.
Did not want to give a lot. Mm-hmm. And, um, and so, yeah, I just wanted to just make sure that we point out the distortion of sacrificial living, which is, um, very selfish living. Right. You know, and part of it is, you know, you say, I, I don't think this represents, I'm, I'm giving you the worst. Version of man, but we all have the worst version inside of us.
Totally. And so I have the worst version of a woman in my sin nature. Mm-hmm. And every guy has that worst version, a hundred percent. But it's the Holy Spirit that helps us live differently. Uh, but I also think, Jared, that again, men have been discipled in our culture to think that they are entitled to sex.
And I think even within the Christian culture, you know, some of how. Purity messaging has gone awry is to tell young men, like, stay pure, but once you get married, you can have everything you want. Hmm. And so they go into marriage feeling entitled, and they might use like one Corinthians seven, which is sort of that duty passage to say like even the Bible says you're supposed to give me sex.
Yeah. And they start thinking of sex as a need. Uh, and I, sex is not a need. Hmm. Um, you know, like we can unpack that a little bit. Yeah. Unpack that as much as you can unpack it. Sure. Because every guy's gonna be like, I don't know if I can agree with that. Yes. Okay. Like I feel Yeah. Sex, I mean, the desire to have sex is a very legitimate physiological desire.
It's a longing. But nobody has ever died from not having sex. That's true. So I mean you that we know of. Yeah. Yeah. If you die, if you don't have food, you die. If you don't have water, you die if you don't have air. Okay. Um, so yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah. This is not, I'm gonna die if I don't have it.
And we tell single Christian guys like, Hey, you self-control. The Holy Spirit is there with you. Why when you get married do you not need self-control related to your sexuality? Um, and so when you start thinking of it as a need, and let's say for whatever reason your wife is not emotionally or physically ready to be intimate with you, you become like, entitled, angry, um, you know, like even angry at God.
Mm-hmm. Like I got married thinking that I was gonna have. Mm, all this great sex and mm-hmm. We're not having a lot of sex, and the sex we have isn't great. Hmm. Um, and so that really gets in the way of you understanding the call to love sacrificially. Mm-hmm. Now, I said, sex is not a need for you, but I do believe that the journey of sexual intimacy is a need in your marriage.
Okay. So a marriage cannot be healthy if there's no. Sexual intimacy. Yeah. And there's a difference between sexual activity and sexual intimacy. Um, and so there are seasons where, let's say your wife is nine months pregnant or your wife is going through some deep work in trauma counseling and sex is too triggering.
Uh, okay. Well what does it look like for us to be sexually intimate in this season? Hmm. Um, you know, to share our bodies. To talk about the journey that we're on, like, that's intimacy. And so it's, it's shifting your paradigm and saying, okay, like intimacy is gonna require a lot more of, again, self-control of me saying, you know, not just how does my wife serve me, but how do I serve her sexually?
Um, how do I understand her needs? How do I understand her vulnerability? Um, and when you really understand that, it's like, okay, yeah, yeah. This, to build a great sex life is gonna require me to really learn to love of as Jesus loves. Yeah. I appreciate you unpacking that. Uh, 'cause I, I do think a lot of guys that they heard that at first and you're gonna think, oh, mm-hmm.
You know, definitely feels like a need. Um, is there a healthy sexual frequency or is that the wrong question to be asking? If there was some, is there was a couple sitting in your office? Mm-hmm. Um, is there like, no, you should probably, if you're in a healthy marriage, this is what Yeah. The frequency should look like.
Yeah. Or is that like we're, we're asking the wrong question. Both. Okay. So yeah, if it's your primary question, I would say that's probably not the best question to ask. Okay. You know, the better question is, are we working on sexual intimacy? Like, are we more intimate sexually than we were six months ago?
Hmm. Um, you know, like. How's the journey? Are you talking about sex? Are you praying together about sex? Are you, and just, and just so you we're clear when you're saying, are we more sexually intimate than we were six months ago? You are. Are you using these four pillars as the measure? Kind of. But it's just where are you on the journey?
You know, like, but I, I guess what I don't want is the guy to be like, is our sex better than it was? No. No. You know, I mean, because that's, that's not, that's part of it. But that's not all of what Yeah, that's not all of what you're saying. Yes. If I'm hearing you right. Yes. Right. So are we more faithful? Is our intimacy deeper?
Um, yes. Is it fun? You know, but that's a better measure. Like, are we growing in this together? Are we actively pursuing it? But I, it also is a legitimate question. People wanna know what's normal. And the research shows that, um, having sex at least once a week is, is a predictor of a healthier marriage and sex life.
Hmm. But I mean, if you're looking at that and you're just like, oh, we gotta check that box, you know, like it just becomes sexual activity. Yes. And not sexual intimacy. Right. But if you can be on that journey of intimacy and say, alright, like at least once a week in normal life circumstances, that's, that's a good marker for us.
Um, yeah. And, and normal life circumstances would be, 'cause we have a lot of young families listening. Yeah. It's like, I don't have a baby sleeping next. Yeah. Or you're not, you didn't just have a baby six months ago. Yeah. Or, you know, whatever the, I, yeah. I would say, you know, even under those circumstances when I'm saying abnormal circumstances, you just had a baby.
Three weeks ago, um, you know, like, did I say six months? That does, yeah. But do most guys heard that? And they're like, oh, geez. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And again and again, sex might look different postpartum in terms of, you know, like maybe intercourse isn't possible, but how about outer course? You know, like that sort of, how do we have a sexual experience together?
Right. What are your thoughts on masturbation with mm-hmm. With you saying that, um, yeah. Yeah. So it depends how you define masturbation. How would you define it? Um, like sex by yourself. Yeah. Okay. So sex by yourself for someone who's married, um, you gotta look at the reason that God gave the gift of sex in marriage, and it really is all about oneness.
Mm-hmm. And so if you're saying, well, my wife can't meet my needs, or There's so much conflict around this area that I'm just gonna take care of myself. Mm-hmm. I would say that that is a misuse of the gift of sex. Yeah, I agree. But if you are using like manual stimulation. Um, together as a way of this is how we're staying intimate in difficult seasons like postpartum or like, um, you know, emotional triggers or things like that.
Or even, um, a wife needing to learn how to explore her body and her sexual response. Like, I think all that is working towards the gift of oneness. Yeah. I completely agree with that. Mm-hmm. Um, and just on that, on that, um, well, I have a few more questions. I'm trying to be, uh, I I can, I can hear all my podcast listeners at a conference like, Jared, why didn't you ask her this?
Would you please ask him? So my, my brain is racing. One thing I've heard guys talk about a lot is. Um, the idea that they, they get into a mindset for the day that's like, we're, I'm probably gonna be intimate with my wife tonight. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I've pursued her heart. I've been faithful to her. I'm not looking at pornography.
I've helped with the kids. I did the dishes. I made, like, I did everything. Check, check, check. And we, yeah. Checked all the boxes we get into bed. And, uh, she's asleep. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Or she's ready for sleep, I would say. I have heard so many guys say that is one of the hardest situations in the world for them.
Yeah. Is there something like, there's gotta be some stuff going on physically and mentally that like chemically, not just like for women emotionally, for for men. Oh, yeah. Oh, for men. Right. Like to, to like have all the like, because after when, when you have all these expectations and then it's not met. Yep.
It seems like you're, go, you're. You're going into a real patch of that. Sure. Yeah. Because you've been also like fostering and thinking about sex all day and anticipating Yes. And so yeah, there is a, a physiological response to that. Um, now here's the thing. The same is true for women, particularly for women that most women need.
A, a long ramp to get there. Yeah. So, and I'm not just talking about like foreplay. I mean, especially when you're in those busy years of parenting, you need to get in that mental space, which is really, really difficult for women. Hmm. And so here's what I recommend, um, that actually we figured out in our marriage that was super helpful.
So my husband would give me an indicator that he's thinking about sex. And sometimes we had a code word that he would use, but we still do this to this day and he is what they call more the initiating sexual desire, which is about 80% of men. Mm-hmm. Where they're the ones that are gonna proactively think about it.
And I'm more of the receptive sexual desire, which is about 80% of women. So notice there's 20% that doesn't fit. Uh, which is okay, totally. But, um, but the, the dynamic you're describing is that the woman is more a receptive sex drive, which means I need a lot of warning. It takes me time to get ready. I'm not naturally gonna be thinking about this.
And so he would give me a heads up like, Hey, what are some appropriate heads up? Okay. So I, I mean, yeah. Well, I, I was gonna go to inappropriate ones, but I'm sure all guys can think of, I mean, like, think of them. For a while. It sounds kind of funny, but we used the term requisition order and I came up, I came up with that because he was in the military and I was like, okay, when you put in a requisition order, you don't get what you want.
That is so funny. Right away. Yeah. That's so funny. But sometimes he'll just say like, when are we gonna connect? Or he'll send me a text and it's like, I know. He's thinking this. Yeah. I've got a friend who sends his wife a calendar invite with the, uh, with the woman in the ripped dress. Like, oh, I see that works.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, but the deal is that within about 24 hours of him in initiating that, then I'm going to initiate sex. Mm. And so, okay. Can I, I'm sorry to pause you. I'm just asking. Yeah. I, I've, again, with hearing that I've heard so many men say my wife has literally never initiated sex. Okay. But if you put it this way, I mean, like, you have to, what you, what you do is you are getting in a cycle where he's always initiating.
Mm-hmm. And so she's always feeling like she has to resist and she's never even. Experiencing any pleasure or excitement because she's just like, oh no, this is another thing I have to do on my to-do list. Hmm. But if you change the paradigm and she starts to realize like, Hey, I'm supposed to enjoy this too, you initiate and say, Hey, within the next day, you know, like anytime you want.
I'm gonna be ready. Literally anytime. Yeah. I'm ready. Yes. And there were seasons when we had three little boys where I'd be like, okay, like now, and the window's closing fast. And he'd be like, no, I gotta finish this email. I'm like, by the time you're done with the email, one of the babies is gonna wake up like it's now.
That must have been early in marriage. Yeah. 'cause you've gotta learn if she, if you crack the door. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that really helped us, and I know it's helped other couples. Mm-hmm. Um, but. In order to have those kind of conversations, you need to do some of, again, that deeper work of listening to a podcast like this together, going through a Bible study on sex together, reading a book together, so you're like, Hey, we all, we both have the same goal.
Yeah. You know, like we both want a great sex life. We both don't want this to be a conflict in our marriage, but we're different. And so how do we come up with our own way of dealing with this? Um, that takes into account. I'm not trying to change you, you're not trying to change me, but we're, we're making room for each other.
Yeah. So does that help? That helps a lot. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, and I, I just think that, uh, I like the idea of like listening to this podcast episode together as a couple. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Or like you said, maybe going through some of your resources or a book or something together. 'cause otherwise it just feels like.
Yeah, it's the husband. We're constantly just like, I want more sex for my wife. Mm-hmm. And she's not giving it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What would you say to, um, if you could just, I mean, you, you've got an audience right now of a lot of men mm-hmm. Who are listening, A lot of men who wanna be more like Jesus. We really do wanna be faithful disciples.
We wanna love our wives. Well, um, what advice would you give to a guy listening who really wants to improve his sex, have a more healthy sexual marriage? Yeah. Uh, I would say one thing you could do is really ask God to reveal to you the lies that you believe about sex. Mm. Um, and some of 'em might have even surfaced through this conversation, like, mm-hmm.
I really believe this is a need, or I really believe that I'm entitled to it. Mm-hmm. Um, which makes me demanding and angry. Um, it gets in the way of me loving sacrificially. Um. And I think it'll help to get a fuller picture of sex like some of the things that we've described, because when you only think about a great sexual encounter as being, it's all physical.
We both climax, you're not gonna be able to connect well to your wife. But when you can begin to say God has given us like a 50 year journey of discovery. Hmm. Of discovering who my wife is, of discovering who I am, of discovering new ways that we can experience pleasure together and even grieve together.
No season is wasted. Hmm. Um, and God's gonna use everything to be a blessing to you and to your marriage. Yeah. Um, so those are some pieces of advice I'd give. That's wonderful. This has been a fun conversation. Thank you for letting me kind of. Toss the ball in all different directions. Sure. And And you were very game to go wherever the conversation led, so I really appreciate that.
Where can people keep up with you and all the resources? It sounds like you have just a ton of resources to help couples in this area. Where can they find them? Yeah, so our website is authentic intimacy.com. And there you'll find we have online book studies, which are a great way for, um, couples to go through content together virtually with other couples.
Um, and then we have the job with Julie Podcast, which you mentioned, so, and that's where you can connect with what we're doing. Awesome. Thank you for taking the time to have this conversation. It's been really fun. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Jared.