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The Endurance Matters Podcast, Hosted by Justin βBigMetzβ Metzler, professional triathlete, is the ultimate destination for endurance enthusiasts. Join us as we dive deep into the world of endurance sports, from 5Ks to Ironman triathlons to Ultra Races, and everything in between. Each episode we'll bring you inspiring stories featuring athletes, trailblazers, and members of the endurance community. From the highs to the lows, this podcast will help us explore the limits of human physical and mental performance.
Whether you're a seasoned athlete or just starting your endurance journey, Endurance Matters is your go-to source for motivation, education, and entertainment. Tune in, lace up, and let's go the distance together!
Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Endurance Matters podcast. I have the pleasure today of having on Andy Donaldson. For those that don't know Andy, he's a world class ultra marathon swimmer. He's done some absolutely mind boggling stuff in the water, including completing the ocean seven where he was the fastest person in history to complete all seven channels within one year, and that's 200 k of swimming.
Justin Metzler:I'm just I was trying to wrap my head around that today. It's 200 k of swimming or 53 Ironman swims for the triathlon listeners out there. So I did a little quick math on that one. Andy, welcome to the show.
Andy Donaldson:Mitch, thanks for having us on. It's a pleasure to be here.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Well, great to have you. You know, we're doing a little bit bit of time zone calculations here. Andy's over in Australia. We're evening time here in Colorado.
Justin Metzler:I start off the podcast here with a icebreaker question. So the first one I've got for you today is out of all the places that you've swum in the world, which is pretty much everywhere, what is the cleanest body of water and the dirtiest body of water? Oh,
Andy Donaldson:you throw a throw a curveball straight away. This is not an easy question to answer. I have to say, I mean, I've been fortunate to swim in amazing places all around the world, you know, Japan, The Middle East, Europe, I have to put my favorite is Hawaii. The waters around, especially Maui, just that aqua blue you would have known racing over there and your triathlons like it's just nothing like it. It's so, so nice.
Andy Donaldson:So that would be up there, maybe a close second, the Red Sea in Egypt. Dirtiest water. I might land myself in a bit of trouble here. I well, I've swum around Manhattan Island Will in New York, I used to hold the world record for fastest time. And surprisingly, that was not too bad.
Andy Donaldson:But yeah, I don't have a dirtiest water. I'm not gonna
Justin Metzler:and it wasn't even bad. Manhattan was actually okay. So It's funny you say that because I was in my parents live just outside Manhattan. My dad works in Manhattan, and I was visiting my grandparents last week and running along the Hudson River. And the smell, you just can't put your finger on what that smell is.
Justin Metzler:So we might not classify it as the dirtiest, but I'm going up there with smelliest for sure.
Andy Donaldson:Maybe you wouldn't jump in by choice. But in terms of polluted or or dirty, like, I was actually I was supposed to do a swim down the Thames this year. So that would have been up there because there's a lot of sewage pollution issues. I unfortunately had to drop out of that in that campaign. But yeah, I think I think there's a real need to clean up a few waterways all around the world and make them more swimmable.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. 100%. Well, cool. Yeah. Why don't you start off a little bit by telling us, yeah, where you grew up, how you got into swimming and sort of just take us back to the beginning?
Andy Donaldson:Of course, of course. So I grew up in the West Coast Of Scotland, you know, open water swimming wasn't really a thing there. But pool swimming was and I followed my sister and my older cousin into the sport, came through as a competitive pool swimmer with aspirations to race the 200 meters at for Great Britain at the Olympics and Scotland at the Commonwealth Games. Unfortunately, fell short of those aspirations, but discovered open water after moving to Australia and much later in life. And during COVID, everything was locked down.
Andy Donaldson:But one of the one of the few things we could do was swim in the ocean. And so I started doing that every morning, fell back in love with it, and started racing in the open water, taking on these bigger and longer events. I'm sure you know that feeling where it's a bit of a snowball effect and a slippery slope, you do one and like, alright, what's the next one? And what's the next one? And before I knew it, was, I was doing these crazy channel swims all around the world and throw my hat in the rain with some of the most turbulent and challenging waters on the planet.
Andy Donaldson:So yeah, it's been a really interesting journey. It's not been a straight line, certainly a lot of ups and downs. But you know, I love it. And I just being out there in the ocean and challenging yourself and Mother Nature, where it is so unpredictable, and so many uncontrollables and variables. And, you know, I really, I really thrive in that and really, yeah, I got a lot of joy out of that entire process.
Justin Metzler:Yeah, very cool. Starting off in the pool, I'm curious to hear more about what your experience in the pool and maybe what led you to stop swimming competitively. Yeah, in in the indoor pool environment.
Andy Donaldson:Well, the the thing with pool swimming is such a controlled environment. And it's I certainly found that it was very black and white with the results. So you could train like an absolute animal for an entire year, you get to your big major event. And you know, something goes wrong at the prep or you get ill, you don't sleep well the night before. And if you don't hit those times or your PBs or you qualify, if you don't qualify, you know, your whole season has been summed up in less than two minutes of racing.
Andy Donaldson:So it's very cutthroat. And I think for me, as someone growing up in the West Of Scotland, I always I think I lacked that belief in myself to make that final jump up to, alright, I'm, I deserve to be up in this level, I've done the work. You know, I didn't have the results that sort of reinforce that belief that I was right on this international level swimmer, I can race all around the world, and I can qualify for these events, I always just fell short on race day and always psyched myself out. And I think it's one of those things. What you believe becomes your truth or reality.
Andy Donaldson:If you don't believe you're good enough, you'll never allow yourself to actually go on and make that step. In my mid 20s, I've been doing it for a good sort of fifteen years. And not reaching those goals and see my friends go on and qualify for teams and race at the Olympic Games. And I just couldn't keep doing it. I didn't have another four years in me.
Andy Donaldson:So I stepped out of the sport. I thought my chapter of swimming was done and threw myself into a nine to five and pursued my career in accounting.
Justin Metzler:Okay, and is that what brought you out to Australia?
Andy Donaldson:Yeah, well, I moved, I used to train at Loughborough University in England. Yep. The guys in The UK might know that well, it's where British winning had one of their major bases. And yeah, life was good. But I wanted a fresh challenge and a fresh scene to well just yet to be in.
Andy Donaldson:And yeah, open water had never really been something I thought about. It was the furthest thing from my mind. But when you go out to a place like Australia, where it's just so woven into the fabric of everyday life, you naturally find yourself gravitating towards it and trying these new things. It's such a sporty country and everyone's doing something there, which is just amazing to see.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Well, there's a big difference between you know, hopping into the sea and swimming two ks and doing you know, Ocean Seven. So talk to me a little bit about, yeah, when you get to Australia, and it's COVID and you're getting into the open water, what was the ramp up to maybe taking it more seriously and getting, you know, getting back into training and that sort of thing? What what did that look like once you got to Australia?
Andy Donaldson:Well, and I'd been living there for a few years, and I'd been out of the sport for maybe three or four years. And COVID was when I got back in. And I just fell in love with it again. And I was coming from this place of, alright, there's no pressure here, I'm not doing this to perform or get results. I'm just doing it from a pure place of enjoyment.
Andy Donaldson:And you know, I'd had some mental health troubles, I found that I realized just how much swimming was helping me with that well-being aspect of things. And it didn't happen straight away. I started coaching to get more people into open water swimming and helping them towards achieving their goals. And one of the gentlemen that was there, he kind of called me out. He's like, you're helping all these people achieve your goals, when are you going to go and revisit some of your own?
Andy Donaldson:And he kind of called me out. So although it wasn't the same goals and the aspirations of old in the pool, I wanted to set some new targets. In Western Australia, we've got this huge event called the Rottnest Channel swim. It's 19.7 kilometers from the mainland to an island, this beautiful tropical island out in the ocean. About 3,000 swimmers take it on every year.
Andy Donaldson:And you can either do it as a solo or in a team of four or in a team of two. And I thought I'd give that a crack. So that became my new goal. I started training up again, was very careful not to go hard too quickly and too far out. This was maybe about ten months out.
Andy Donaldson:My coach and I, we really wanted to emphasize quality and being smart with our approach rather than you know, hard work will always get you somewhere, but smart work will take you that one step further. And so how could we approach this as clinically as possible? Because in this race, there was guys in the Australian Dolphins team entered people that hadn't taken or hadn't spent the last four years out the water, you know, and they were a lot fitted and faster than I was. But could we perhaps train in a way that was smarter? So looking at different things like our nutrition, how we're recovering, swimming strategies, Could I do things like go to the gym before training session and create fatigue in my muscles so that it replicate the second half of a swim, rather than doing a 10 ks set where it's maybe not as quality as you'd like?
Andy Donaldson:You know, could we do something a bit differently and just get those same outcomes, but in a smarter way and where we can bounce back and not just be in a hole for a month on end, you know?
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Did you have the plan to take it pretty seriously once you got back into and you set this goal of doing the nineteen k swim? It seems like you maybe, yeah, reestablished the relationship with your coach. Were you did you have a runway immediately towards doing more of these events and you saw a pathway to this taking it pretty seriously? Were you just like, okay.
Justin Metzler:I'm gonna try to take this one event seriously and see how it goes?
Andy Donaldson:It was one at a time. Yeah. It was one at a time. I think if you want to do something well, you've got to focus, you're not got one eye on the goal and one eye on the one after. For me, this was a second chance or like this, an opportunity to rewrite the script.
Andy Donaldson:Let's see how you what shape I can get into really give this one everything and just enjoy the process as well. You know, if I've done everything right, if in my preparation, I've gone and executed the best race possible, the result doesn't really matter. Because there's so many things outside of my control, I can't control how the other guys are going to race, I can't control the weather on the day, which ultimately impacts the time. Because it doesn't matter how quick you are, if the currents are bad, if it's choppy, or the winds in your face, you're not going to break records. So I really liked that aspect of these longer events where you're being fast and strong is only one aspect of it.
Andy Donaldson:But that mental side of it as well, I think is so powerful and testing yourself there, you know, really teaches you a lot about your character, and how you respond to adversity and all these things that are just so translatable into other aspects of life.
Justin Metzler:Yeah, I couldn't agree with that more. I feel like Ironman distance triathlon is is similar in that way that the day is so long that there is this competitive element, but there's also this element of self exploration that's kind of bigger than the outcome or the result on the paper. So I could see how it maybe be attractive to go, you know, to go long. So talk to me a little bit about like when you did that race and you finished it, A, how did it go? And B, where was your mindset after that first one?
Andy Donaldson:So there was about a ten month lead in. And I'd got myself from basically zero fitness to probably the best shape I've ever been in. It was just amazing. And when you know, we planned really well. You want to be and I'm sure it's the same with an Ironman or a 70.3, you want to have prepared everything for every possible challenge.
Andy Donaldson:So that when you're there, on the start lane, you've got a clear mind, and you're just, you're not thinking about anything else, just turn up and execute. And our strategy was, I wanted to be going out faster than everyone else, but just at a pace that was quicker and more sustainable. Because I didn't have the back end speed to finish. If was going to be tight at the end, I wasn't going to be able to outswed in this competition, they would have come past me. So in training, my goal was, right, if I can hold 112 pace, all the way across here, when everyone else is comfortable at 115, then they're not in the race anymore.
Andy Donaldson:By the time you get to the end, they're so far back. And that's what happened. So I went straight up to the front, held this 112 pace, which is five ks's an hour. And everyone was burning to try stay with me to the 10. And it was still fairly tight within 100 meters.
Andy Donaldson:But then by 15 ks, that gap had blown out to about 700 meters. And I was hurting, but I knew that if I can just sustain this pace, I don't have to come home flash, I just need to get back and finish safely. And it was really special because I can enjoy that last couple 100 meters into the finish knowing that I was first and I could really soak in this moment and I don't have to defend this position or speed up. And so you know, when your toes touch down on the other side, and you've been horizontal for four hours, you come up as it's a funny feeling. I mean, even at a triathlon, I'm sure that transitions a bit funny with going from horizontal to vertical.
Andy Donaldson:Imagine after four hours, and you've got to run up this ramp, and there's all these people on the island that have come across for the day and this huge blow up arch, but I don't know, it's that adrenaline, it just takes over and kicks in. And I remember crossing the line and just letting out this full on scream of just pure joy that we come through this journey. And it was it was like rewriting the script of right, I can do this, I am capable. And if I apply myself right, I can get the results. But it was the journey that was more important.
Andy Donaldson:The result obviously is amazing. And, you know, it was actually it was only four minutes off the record and some fairly average weather. So A) I realized, I'm not bad at this. B) I'm still hungry to go on and do more and test myself. And C) I'd actually been raising money for a mental health charity.
Andy Donaldson:And we'd raised I think about $12,000 doing this swim and I realized maybe the three of them could be combined. And I can go on and take on more challenges, pursue these goals. And something that I love doing and that I'm good at. But maybe we can inject a bit of purpose into this as well. And raise some money for a cause close to my heart and share some powerful messages like, you know, it's not too late to pursue your dreams, or showcasing the importance of having good preparation and a solid team around you on that journey.
Andy Donaldson:Because it's not just the preparation, but you know, if you've got other people with you along the way, you get to celebrate that journey, the result with them as well, which makes it even more special and enriching.
Justin Metzler:Yeah, very cool. And yeah, so from that point forward, I guess, walk me through maybe fast forward me through what's next after that. Right? Like, this event itself seemed pretty competitive in nature. Like, you were trying to, you know, win the race, push yourself to the max.
Justin Metzler:At what point do you shift things maybe to doing things that haven't been done before or doing events faster than folks have done before, like swimming around Manhattan or, you know, doing the Ocean seven? When do those start coming into play?
Andy Donaldson:It was about a year after Rottnest. And I was looking at things like the English Channel. And that's when I learned, well, I mean, the English Channel growing up in The UK, that's like the Everest of swimming, you know, the thing that is the bucket list item. It's got the longest histories one hundred and fifty years since the first guy that English Channel Captain Matthew Webb, so everyone knows about it. And so I was reading up upon the challenge and learned that it was part of this wider collection of swims called the Ocean 7.
Andy Donaldson:And the Ocean 7 are the seven toughest, most iconic channel swims in the world, things like the English Channel, swimming from Molokai to Oahu, over in Hawaii, there's one in Japan between two of the islands there, Spain to Morocco, Ireland to Scotland, Catalina to Los Angeles, and the Cook Strait, which is between the islands of New Zealand. And these are challenges where you're not wearing a wetsuit. But that's the traditional marathon swimming rules. So you know, there's some places in there which, you know, probably colder than jumping in. Is it the Hudson, Superior?
Andy Donaldson:Is that Chicago? Yeah,
Justin Metzler:you got Lake Michigan in the winter. That's pretty cold. Mean, it's colder.
Andy Donaldson:But that's the sort of thing like, you're looking at bloody Baltic water. So the distance is one thing, but all marathon and distance or ultra marathon and distance 25 ks's and up. You could freeze in cold temperatures, you know, so some fairly sharky waters. All these real big variables that you'd have to contend with. So I'm looking at this and reading it and thinking, right, I'd love to have a crack at this and no one's ever done it in a year before.
Andy Donaldson:So maybe there's a chance to go and do this. See if I can become the first person to do it in a year. Try break as many world records for speed crossings as possible, take this performance mindset and apply it to here and see what I can put together and use this entire journey to raise money for mental health and share all these powerful messages and all the learnings that I pick up along the way. But before I jumped into that, I thought well, I better do a few more of these ultra marathons to make sure that I wasn't just a one off flick here at Rottnest and I actually enjoy what I'm doing and just get a bit more experience under the belt. So a lot of the countries, the major swimming countries around the world have their own, what they call triple crowns, which are like three different ultramarathon swims.
Andy Donaldson:And Australia has a triple crown, which is three events, one in Western Australia, one over Eastern Sydney, where you go down all the length of the northern beaches and one in Tasmania. So I set out to do those first before jumping straight into the Ocean 7. And yeah, you learn a lot of things that you didn't plan on learning. I had my first ever swim in the night and in the cold. I had done zero preparation for either of those, which is very naive.
Andy Donaldson:And I was a steep learning curve. But you know, a good, good way to learn. And then swimming from Palm Beach to Shelley Beach in Sydney, it's 25 ks's, the conditions got so bad that my boat broke down halfway through, and we got stranded out there. So you know, going through those swims and those experiences, as tough as they were at the time, they certainly put me in good stead for, you know, we did manage to come through them. And they put me in good stead for what was to come with the Ocean seven is all part of the learning, all part of the preparation that sets you up for those future challenges that you might encounter in the future.
Justin Metzler:Sure. I want to specifically ask a couple questions about the Ocean seven just because it's such a big thing to wrap your head around, I think, both in terms of the physical demands, like you mentioned. So I wanna hear more about the physical preparations for Ocean seven, but also just from a logistical component because you decided to do them within a year. So can you tell me more about how you specifically prepared the logistics and then how you were preparing your body along the way to get ready for it? So logistically,
Andy Donaldson:to sum it up in a word, it's a bit of a nightmare. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:I'm sure.
Andy Donaldson:Some some of these swims have these huge multi year waiting lists because it's not like you turn up to Dover Beach in England, and you just want to cross the channel, one of the world's busiest shipping lanes and go to France like those certain pilots that are qualified to take swimmers across, they know the waters well, and they have the right boats to, you know, support you on that journey, you always have a team out there in the water with you. And, you know, that's one of the aspects that I love is that you're not just out there on your own, you have all these other people, like the skipper who's in charge of the navigation, or your coach who's kept in you keeping you fueled and hydrated and motivated, giving you all the updates as you go through the swim. So every swim, you have to organize that team and get them there. And then obviously your accommodation and on the ground transport like it's a lot and a lot financially as well. So I'd set out to do this.
Andy Donaldson:And we were coming out of the back of COVID. So a lot of there was a lot of uncertainty in the markets, and not many people were really open to the idea of sponsoring or supporting a challenge like that. But I'd saved up a bunch of money that was supposed to be used for a house. I thought well
Justin Metzler:I like that way better. That's always
Andy Donaldson:like, well, this is you just don't know what's going to happen in the future. I could break a leg tomorrow. I might not want to do this in a couple of years time. Might get a full time job and be committed to that. But right now I I have this opportunity to take this on.
Andy Donaldson:And I'm in great shape. And I've got the finances. I don't really know what this entails fully. But I'm keen to dive in and learn as I go. And it was very much one of those build the plane in the sky type of campaigns where you just, you almost need that little bit of naivety.
Andy Donaldson:Because I think if you know what the road ahead looks like, you'd get daunted and be too scared to give it a real go. So I did, I dove in. And one of the first things I did was put together a team. Put together a team so people that had experience in the areas I needed help. So people that had done some of these swims before, who could I learn from that could share about the challenges, what to expect, and introduce me to people on the ground that might be able to help like the skippers or like locals who might want to come out in the boat or train with that I could train with when I'm there.
Andy Donaldson:You know, people that could help me with the charity fundraising, because that was one of the big goals of this, that we could raise money through these challenges, get the word out there, and really make this quite exciting. So break records, make the news, but then try use that platform for this altruistic and advocacy work over here. And then, yeah, then you've got the training aspect of it all in the physical preparation, and the mental preparation. And so, you know, being the good accountant that I am, we I started with a spreadsheet. Of course.
Andy Donaldson:Exactly, exactly. So I wrote down all of the challenges that stood between me and where I wanted to get. And that could be the individual challenges, like if I broke down the Molokai Channel, for example, it's 44 ks so distance, I'm gonna have to prepare for that swimming in the night, because it's so long, it's going to span through the day and the night. So I'm going to have to become comfortable in that. Hot water is not as bad as cold water, but still, we're going to have to come up with a strategy to stay hydrated and not be affected by the soul and the sun.
Andy Donaldson:You know, big waves, there's three meter swells out there because you're a pin drop in the middle of the ocean, and there's no massive land masses to block the rolling swells. So how are you going to deal with that? The wind, it's pretty, yeah, really, really stiff winds through there that can be quite adverse. Jellyfish, sharks, like what are we doing in preparation for all of these things? And the way I look at it, like if you think of your comfort zone, as a circle, what can I do to grow that as big as possible?
Andy Donaldson:So that on race day, this is massive. And anything that happens out there on race day falls within this comfort zone. Or if it doesn't, then it's not massively outside of here. So you know that swimming Molokai, I had my first ever shark encounter. And that's certainly outside of the comfort zone, like the circle.
Andy Donaldson:But we'd come up with strategies on how we would respond in those moments if something happened. And so you're not panicking trying to figure it out in the moment. You're there, you've got a calculated response, we had shark shields on the kayak, I would swim up next to the kayak, the shark shields sorry, are these cables that emit these frequencies that drive away the sharks. So I swim up to the kayak and then I know I'm not fully safe, but at least at a better position than I might have been. So, you know, I think it's such a understated aspect of sport, the preparation side of things.
Andy Donaldson:Everyone likes to talk about resilience, which is very important resilience being you know, how you respond to challenges in the moment. But if you've not done the preparation, if you've not become robust, robust being ready for the challenges ahead, it doesn't matter how tough you are. If you've not prepared for the distance, you're not swimming 44 ks's to Oahu from Molokai. If you're not prepared for the cold, doesn't matter how tough you are, you're not swimming from Ireland to Scotland in 12 degree waters. I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit, maybe like 40 something.
Justin Metzler:Yeah, yeah. 40s for sure.
Andy Donaldson:So yeah, I think I think they go hand in hand because obviously, you prepare for as much as you can, but you are bound to experience adversity in these challenges. And a big endurance event where you're out there for such a long time. The mental aspect as well, you know, when things don't go to plan, or that fatigue starts to set in, that's when the resilience piece really starts to come to the forefront. And, you know, undoubtedly, you would have your techniques as well. I think you really need to come in with that toolbox of levers to pull when you get into the rough.
Justin Metzler:Yeah, totally. I'm curious specifically on three things that you mentioned there, the preparation for just swimming something like 44 ks. So I want to hear more about like, what does the day in day out weekly training look like for the distance? What does the training look like for the cold? And then how have you trained for the sleep?
Justin Metzler:Those were the three things that I extracted from what you said that I'm really curious to hear more about. So if you could elaborate on those three points in terms of the actual training elements that I think that'd be really cool.
Andy Donaldson:Yeah, of course, of course. I think for me, with the distance, there's very much two schools of thought where you have to be comfortable swimming those sorts of distances. My coach and I, we were probably on the other side where we were emphasizing more quality over quantity. We were probably doing about 30 ks's a week, which doesn't sound a lot, five swims, six ks's each, maybe seven ks's each at times. But really in the zones that we wanted to be training.
Andy Donaldson:So you know, if I wanted to be very comfortable at 112 pace, I needed to be comfortable doing my short rest sessions per 100 under 110. So that I've come back to 112 and that would feel like a doddle. And if you think of the triangle like a like first gear or you know max speeds trying to spend as much time either in both of those and a bit less in the middle. So yeah, you're maxing your threshold paces. So you know, the distance, the fitness and the muscle conditioning is one aspect of your technique, really making sure because swimming such a technical sport, making sure that sharp because think how many strokes you're going to be taking in a 44 kilometer swim.
Andy Donaldson:If you can get just even like 1% more out of your stroke every time you make an arm pull, like that adds up over the distance. So we're really doing a lot of drills in our training. It doesn't matter how good you get, you can always keep on top and keep improving with your technique. And you're just trying to repeat the best possible stroke in your training so that that's what you do out there. And doing it when you're tired as well.
Andy Donaldson:Because that's what your stroke is going to revert to when you're in the middle of big long swim. I did have something else I was going to talk about. Yeah, Jim. I do have
Justin Metzler:one question. Oh, yeah, I want to hear I want to hear about the gym. But I think one thing our listeners will find really interesting and maybe appreciate your advice on is a lot of triathletes and swimmers will be doing that technical work in the pool, but have difficulty translating it to the open water when you do get things like chop, swell, for our in our case, wet suit or a swim skin or whatever it might be. Mhmm. So what's one thing you would maybe recommend for folks who are trying to translate their pool swimming over to the open water from a technical perspective?
Andy Donaldson:Gain experience, just keep getting more experience in those choppier conditions. You know, I think people on a rainy day or maybe not a rainy day, but when it's windy and it's choppy, they skip that opportunity to go and swim in the open water. When in reality, if we think of that circle of comfort, if you're not practicing in those rougher conditions, but if that's what you experience out there in your race day, then you are out of your element. So you know, trying to remember the fundamentals, what keeps you moving forward? Where do you get propulsion?
Andy Donaldson:Usually in your armpull, you know, from here to here. Understanding what makes you move forward, and then just applying, trying to make sure that you're applying those things, those concepts in the open water, your stroke is not going to be perfect, you're going to have to adjust with the wind and the chop and the waves. But the more you do it, and the more you get that feel and comfort in the open water, the better place you're going to be on race day. And the less energy you're going to burn from stressing as well. Sure.
Justin Metzler:And then the gym, you were going to mention how you maybe tie that into Yeah, because I think 30 ks a week, I would have definitely probably guessed that you were doing, you know, two by five k a day, maybe 60 k a week or something like that for ultra marathon swimming. So do you feel as though with a more precise approach with 30 k's a week of swimming, good quality swimming, and then implementation of gym, you can get there. Guess what the question is, what are you doing in the gym that's maybe filling that gap?
Andy Donaldson:The gym work is more around mobility and strengthening the ligaments and these sort of supporting muscles, because that's what's going to fatigue. And these longer swims, like when I first started doing ultramarathons, I remember, I think my hip flexors just getting smashed. And it's just because your legs are going like that. They're not even kicking that hard, but it's just for the duration of five hours and beyond that that adds up. So what can we be doing to strengthen and make more durable these tinier supporting muscles so that they're not fatiguing and really tying up out there in the water that is so noticeable that that's all you can think about at the five hour mark of one of these swims.
Andy Donaldson:So being strong because if you can swim easier, if you can swim faster, let's say if you're thinking of threshold pace, if you can make your threshold pace a little bit quicker, easier for the same effort input. Then when you're out there on race day, let's use the Rottnest Channel Swim as an example. If you can get across further with the same amount of effort, because you've been doing gym and you've become stronger and faster. You're exposing yourself to less changes in the weather. Here, I'm pointing out there because that's the direction of it.
Andy Donaldson:You know, the wind always comes up in the afternoon. So if you're an eight hour swimmer versus a five hour swimmer, you're getting the brunt of the worst weather possible. So if we can make ourselves a bit faster, we can usually give ourselves better opportunities when we come to these types of swims. These ultramarathon events like an English Channel, like a Brought Ness Channel swim. So the gym aspect is good.
Andy Donaldson:And you know, if you think of it all together, like yes, it's nice to be able to know that you can do the distance like a 44 kilometer swim, I'd say to most people that are doing rotten nest, which is 19 ks's, make sure that you can swim 15 ks's, maybe do it once and do it like a month out. But that's more for the mental benefit of the psychological component that I can do this distance, but I don't want to be put myself in a hole because then the quality of my training the following week might suffer in the following week after that, like I'm trying to look at the whole block and the whole picture and not having any boom and bust where, you know, you have these spikes of one week's amazing. And then you're less than average the following couple of weeks, like what can we be doing to make the upwards trend, or to make the trend upwards, but just, it's not all about how hard you go in training, it's about being smart and recovering well as well, which I think is one of your questions about this. Oh, no, you were asking about the sleep.
Andy Donaldson:Depth. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:Those are the next two things that I wanted to hear more about. So yeah, I'm curious to hear specifically how you prepared for like in, you know, the Ocean seven, how you prepared for just the overnight sleep element? Did you do any, you know, midnight five ks swims?
Andy Donaldson:I Yeah, so with the night swimming, it's a hugely mental thing. Because a) you're tired, there's no sun. If it's cold, like Scotland, swimming at nighttime is bloody freezing, and you lose that psychological benefit of the sun on your back. And you can see what's in the water. But you cannot see beyond the ends of your fingertips.
Andy Donaldson:And it's one of those ones where in an ideal world, you would train it. So, you know, go down to the beach at night, you don't want to be out there on your own of course so if you can get a kayaker they hop in with you and they have you know torch on so that you can see them or fairy lights or whatever it is And you're just practicing swimming beside them. That's how you would prepare for swimming in the night. And just building up that zone of comfort, or by getting experienced during these swims. I don't think you ever really get comfortable swimming in the night.
Andy Donaldson:I think it's always one of those things that just feels feels wrong. Not wrong, but it feels different. And like you jump in and you're like, Oh, man. Yeah. But I suppose that's part of the challenge.
Andy Donaldson:When you're out of that comfort zone, how quickly can you bring yourself back into it and stay calm? Use your tools like your breathing or positive visualization or positive affirmations, having the team beside you so that you know that you're not out there on your own. Like all these things help. The sleep deprivation, I think is one of those ones you learn by doing. And my longest ever swims been sixteen hours.
Andy Donaldson:So I've never had to go beyond the twenty four hours. I'm not sure how runners do it with these insane ultra marathon runs. But you know, if I was going to ever do a 100 ks swim, for example, like, that would be one of the first things I do go and speak to someone that's done it and ask them these questions. How did you prepare? How did you?
Andy Donaldson:What helped you get through those moments? Like, is there anything that you would do if you were in my possession? Like, what would you do differently? What worked? What didn't?
Andy Donaldson:I think asking what didn't work as well was equally important. Because, yeah, then you can avoid those mistakes as well.
Justin Metzler:100%. And then what were you doing to prepare for the cold? Because I feel like anything under 60 degrees or, like, sixteen, seventeen degrees Celsius, I need a wet suit. Otherwise, I'm gonna be shivering in two minutes. So what was the preparation for the cold like when you're in there for hours on end
Andy Donaldson:and keeping that core body temperature elevated? This is the hardest bit, I think of these types of challenges. And for me preparation was a lot of ice baths, a lot of cold showers. So not even getting a hot shower after you go training. But that's horrible.
Andy Donaldson:And swimming, our local river here is the Swan River. And so Australian wintertime is Northern Hemisphere summertime. So when you pick these swims, when you pick the windows for them, you're trying to give yourself the best possible chance. So if I'm going to go swim in English Channel, I'm going to do it in the height of summer when it's warmest. I'm not going to pick December, where the weather's crap, and the water temperature is freezing.
Andy Donaldson:So that worked out quite well. Your lead in was Australian wintertime. So I was in swimming in the river. And I think that's important to recreate what you're going to experience as much as possible, like sitting in a space bath is good, but you're sitting static, your heart's not elevated, you're not moving. So versus swimming in the Swan River, and I think it was 14 degree waters, on cold, cloudy days, where it's recreating that same feeling you're going to experience out there swimming from England to France.
Andy Donaldson:But that's the ideal scenario. If you can get access to that, then do that. So that's what we were trying to do. And they started off very gently where I just go for a fifteen minute swim and just try stay in as long as I could. Didn't matter what sort of speed or energy zone I was in, it was just pure acclimatization.
Andy Donaldson:But then we would start tweaking it and adding on time or adding on, you know, training at different paces. Swimming in the dark, like you can progress these exercises, so that you build that circle of comfort as much as possible. But the other aspect of cold water swimming or the preparation, which is more something when it's out there is utilizing your feet. And that's what we call them and swimming your drinks. And when you take on fueling because that can be really key in staying warm if you heat your feeds up and keep them piping hot, so that when you take them during an event, that's heating you up from your core and from your insight, and giving you energy but giving you that motivation, and that psychological boost when you keep on going.
Justin Metzler:Sure. So I'm just curious as well, now that you've mentioned it, the feeds in particular, because A) with swimming, you're burning quite a lot of energy, you're burning quite a lot of carbohydrate, what do the feeds and also the the length is quite long. Right? Like, if you're swimming 44 k, it's taking you multiple hours, like you said, sixteen hours or something. So are you relying mostly on something like a precision fuel and going, you know, carbohydrate heavy drink mixes, gels, stuff like that?
Justin Metzler:Are you mixing in real food? How are you implementing the hot elements? Like, are you heating up gels and getting sports drink warm? What does that all look like?
Andy Donaldson:Yeah, it's it's a great question, Justin. And the fueling is a huge aspect of one of these challenges. Like you cannot swim 44 ks's without taking on some kind of fueling or staying hydrated. For me, it was a bit of a journey going down this path and understanding how to approach it. Like when I was doing Rottnest, I was asking people, I started off by asking people what they were doing.
Andy Donaldson:And I got all sorts of answers. Like, you know, some people were taking Gatorade, some people were chewing down a tin of beans. One guy, a Swiss guy that I spoke to had one banana for the entire swim, he'd eat half of it at the halfway and then the other half at 17 ks's and I'm like,
Justin Metzler:I don't know if that's that's the approach I want to take. Yeah, 20 grams of carbs 19 ks
Andy Donaldson:But, you know, I ended up reaching out and getting a bit of some expert advice. And it was funnily enough, the woman, Christy Robson, she was the one that put me on to precision back all those years ago. And, you know, when you're swimming, it's not like when you're on a bike or you're running because you can't just grab a bottle whenever you're not carrying a bottle with you. It's not like you run past an aid station and you get to choose whatever you want. There's a logistical challenge to it as well.
Andy Donaldson:So I wanted to try keep my stuff liquids, because we've got the support team beside us, I can get a bottle passed down to me quite easily, I don't have to unwrap some kind of packet, I can just pop the lid or it could be open and just put it straight down the hatch. Nice and simple. And it's easier on my gut. I'm not having to chew anything which is difficult when you're swimming in the sea and salt starts getting in. It's not as heavy on the gut.
Andy Donaldson:It's not sitting in my stomach, it passes through into the bloodstream quite quickly. And I can do things with this, like I can heat it up if it's going to be cold out there. I can add in painkillers if I'm needing them. I can put in caffeine tablets if I need them, and just crush them up into liquid and ingest it all quite easily in the one go. So that's what I sort of decided I would go with my sports nutritionist, we targeted about 100 grams of carbs an hour.
Andy Donaldson:So the way we would approach it, we would do our carb load in the week leading up, getting all like topping up the glycogen stores, eating our just all the usual stuff like your white rice is and pastas and so forth. And the way I saw it that was setting me up for the first half of a swim. And then what I'm taking out there is what's going to help bring me home. So I've got my fueling, taking on my hydration, because when you're out there in the water, you're burning a lot of energy to stay warm. If you're somewhere like Hawaii, or where it's very sunny, you're going to be sweating as well.
Andy Donaldson:I think it's a bit of a myth that you don't sweat in the ocean or sweat in a swimming pool, but you certainly do. So, you know, at a later stage, we started determining those sweat loss rates. And, you know, what I would love to do is try testing it in different temperatures just to see what the impact would be. Think that would be a really interesting case study, maybe the guys at Precision would be keen to do that. But we could really tinker with our feed strategies and make them very specific for the challenges that we were going to be taking on because swimming in Hawaii is going be very different to swimming in Scotland.
Andy Donaldson:I would try and mix up the feeds that I was taking on accessing different sugar so you're not pounding the gut with the same type all the time. But also changing the flavors and the tastes because taste fatigue over sixteen hours, especially when you've got a salty mouth is a pretty horrible thing. So could we avoid that? And you also just get those like boost psychologically, one of my feeds is a flat coke. Like, knowing that that's coming up is always quite nice.
Andy Donaldson:And yeah, I think just is, it's underestimated, but you get your feeding and your nutrition right, then A) you're less likely to hit the wall, crash B) you can stay warm in those colder swims and try to avoid hyperthermia because I think hyperthermia mostly comes when your body is starting to shut down and you don't have enough energy to keep it warm in those moments. It's a real asset to have a solid feed strategy coming into a race like that.
Justin Metzler:Yeah, very cool. Well, one thing that you mentioned a couple times earlier was the tie in to the charity element and you being an advocate for mental health. So I wanna spend a little bit of time talking about why you feel connected to that and sort of what, yeah, I guess your vision is as you continue to do these challenges and what the overarching goal is from the charitable side. For sure. So I think
Andy Donaldson:for me, everyone experiences challenges in their life, or has known someone that's gone through a mental health and a tough time mentally. So it's one of those things that really just affects us all. I've had my struggles, my grandfather, who was one of my biggest role models in my life, he suffered with depression. So it's like, it's quite deep in our family and very personal, and close to my heart. So you know, I'd love to help people.
Andy Donaldson:Swimming's been so good to me in terms of managing well-being that, you know, being able to swim in the ocean, the endorphins that you get from exercise, being connected to nature. It's one of those moments, like I see you smile in here, where you're not connected, or that you don't have your phone, you're not listening to music, you don't have your emails or notifications going like you're just fully alone with your own thoughts. And I think that's a rarity in today's world where you don't really get that time so much. And then the community aspect around it as well. You know, the swims are one thing, but going for a coffee afterwards with your mates or doing an event with your mates, chasing goals, you know, the journey, the enrichment that you get through those, like I think they're all things that really add to your life.
Andy Donaldson:And so I'd love to encourage more people to get into sport, hopefully swimming or any kind of discipline that they really enjoy and love and can find those benefits of being part of something and being or belonging to a community, I think I can all help. You know, I would love to see a world where kids are taught the tools that they need to navigate life, because like a marathon swim, you go in with your best foot forward, but you know, you you encounter all of these things that you didn't plan on encountering, you know, the broken boat, shark sighting, I've swum into unforecasted storms, we've ran out of feeds on the boat, like all of these things where you have to adapt at the time. And they push you off course, like I had a swim, it was Molokai at a swim. In that swim, we actually got halfway across and discovered that we've been pushed so far, of course, that we'd not actually made any forward progress with, I think covered three kilometers in the last two hours. So 1.5 ks's an hour, 400 meters, taking four minutes to do 100 meters, and a 44 kilometer swim lane, the psychological battering, an update like that causes like it's and you feel like you've lost hope, you're like, I don't know how I'm going to keep on going.
Andy Donaldson:I don't know how I'm going to manage another five minutes, never mind another potentially ten hours. Like this is mad. I think everyone experiences those moments in life where they feel lost, or they feel pushed off course, and they don't know how to keep on going. And I think there's so many messages in endurance sport that we can learn from over here and apply to over here, or share with other people on how to get through those moments, you know, reconnecting with your why, having your support team around you, breaking the challenges down into manageable steps, you know, if you're claiming Everest, you don't look to the summit, you just put one foot in front of the other. You know, focusing on one thing, what you're breathing, or, you know, in the darkness, there's always light, there's always a positive in those situations.
Andy Donaldson:Like in Hawaii, I remember flipping on my back in those moments, and taking a massive breath and there's just stars scattered across the sky. It was just the most incredible sight. And I remember thinking to myself like, this is a privilege to be here. This privilege to be here, I, not everyone in the world gets to do this. Like there's wars going on, I could be at an office in an accounting firm right now, but I'm not.
Andy Donaldson:I'm here at my own well, swimming across the Molokai Channel. And yes, it's damn tough. But this is a privilege. And you've got all these people here by your side going through this with you. Let's find a way to keep on going, even if it's just for another fifteen minutes, and just see what happens there and just break it down into the most manageable chunks.
Andy Donaldson:But these are all skills that I think can be taught to others. So, you know, when it comes to mental health, yeah, the ultimate dream would be that that gets taught in schools, and it forms part of the school curriculum, giving kids the tools to navigate life's challenges, because they're gonna happen. And I think if we use our voices loud enough, we all have a voice, athletes, like we all have platforms, we all have people that follow what we're doing. There's all these people that their lives we managed to touch without us probably even realizing that you've got this podcast here, all the people that are listening, like there's an opportunity to share these kinds of messages. And if it's just one person that listens to this and feels inspired or shares that message with another person, like it really resonated with them, then, you know, I think we've done our job, Like we've done a really good job.
Andy Donaldson:And, you know, I grew up with an Indonesian mother. That's part of the reason why I'm inspired to do what I do nowadays. Like I used to go out and visit my family over there. And there's a lot of inequality and you know, it can be quite confronting. And I always wanted to do something.
Andy Donaldson:I feel like doing this, what I'm good at, and using that platform to help others. And even if it's just as small as sharing a message, I think that's Yeah, I enjoy it. And hopefully it's helping.
Justin Metzler:Yeah, I think it's amazing. Like I love that you're able to sort of pair yeah, what you're passionate about, but also have it go through the lens of giving back and trying to inspire. And I think, yeah, I think similarly about triathlon and endurance sport, it's been such a value add to my life, both, you know, career wise, but mentally and physically. And I have so much, I guess, gratitude for the fact that this sport found me. I'm sure you feel similarly about swimming.
Justin Metzler:And, yeah, I just wanna give back in whatever capacity I can. And the fact that you're doing it in the ways that you can are really, it's inspiring, and it's just exceptional. And just keep up keep up the good work. So love to see it. Before we, wrap up the podcast, I've got some rapid fire questions.
Justin Metzler:So you ready to hit them? I've got six for you today.
Andy Donaldson:Let's do it.
Justin Metzler:Alright. Number one, what's the most I know you said that you stuck to, you know, the simple liquid hydration, but what's the most surprising mid swim food that is really good and just hits the spot?
Andy Donaldson:I do like a flat coke. Do like a flat coke.
Justin Metzler:Hard to beat.
Andy Donaldson:But it's bit of a if I'm going a bit of a bit left field, I once had soup in the middle of a swim like a big salty broth. I got so sick of all my feeds. And it was swimming from Catalina to Los Angeles. And I wanted to like to try something different. And the guys were scouring about the boat.
Andy Donaldson:Sorry, this is not very quick rapid fire.
Justin Metzler:No, no, it's fine. You're good. We got any rules. That's what they found.
Andy Donaldson:They found this broth and it just hit the spot. Was I was cold. I was feeling a bit sorry for myself and I had this broth and it picked me back up. Yeah, I would have guessed a broth.
Justin Metzler:I would have gone with broth because they have that late in Ironman marathons. You know, if you're, you know, going fifteen hours and you're, you know, getting home in the dark, they have soup out there for folks. So I I would have guessed soup. That's a that's a good one. What's your favorite and h product that you're using all the time?
Andy Donaldson:I'd say the gels. Yeah,
Justin Metzler:their
Andy Donaldson:gels are really spot on.
Justin Metzler:You go caffeine or no caffeine? No caffeine usually. Okay. I get a little bit too, yeah, too aggressive on the caffeine every once in while. So I gotta check myself, know, the yellow.
Justin Metzler:Sometimes I say it's an accent, but it's not really.
Andy Donaldson:You know, I'm going into
Justin Metzler:the into the left bin and and reaching for the yellow sometimes. Alright. If you had to do a crossing, but you couldn't do freestyle, what stroke are you choosing?
Andy Donaldson:Backstroke. Yeah, it would
Justin Metzler:be impossible.
Andy Donaldson:Breaststroke, you're getting the shin splints.
Justin Metzler:I know
Andy Donaldson:way. It depends what the goal was. Like if it was a charity fundraiser. Actually, I would need a new set of arms if I tried to butterflies. Let's stick with backstroke.
Andy Donaldson:I grew up as a backstroker. So
Justin Metzler:Oh, you got it unlocked then. You should just do it anyways just for you know, that would get some eyeballs on it or even even more. Alright. How many seconds per 100 is the full swimmer body shave down worth?
Andy Donaldson:Oh, per 100?
Justin Metzler:I mean, it depends how hairy you are, isn't it? That's a
Andy Donaldson:good point.
Justin Metzler:That's the average. Just average Well,
Andy Donaldson:I'd like I'm quite hairless. I'm half Asian. So like, I don't have that much hair. So it's
Justin Metzler:probably I think there's
Andy Donaldson:a big psychological effect, the old placebo. So I'm gonna go half a second per 100.
Justin Metzler:Okay. Worth it then? Worth it?
Andy Donaldson:I think I would do it. I would do it.
Justin Metzler:Sure. And so you mentioned the sixteen hour swim. I'm curious to hear your longest or the most number of kilometers you've swum in twenty four hours. That could be training. That could be in an ultramarathon.
Justin Metzler:Most number of k's in twenty four hours.
Andy Donaldson:Molokai. Yeah. 50.
Justin Metzler:44.
Andy Donaldson:It was 44. We had to make a decision as a team to push north, which added on an extra 10 Ks. That moment where we weren't making any forward progress, pushed, pushed north and a bit brutal, but that took us out the current so 54 case. Manhattan was 46 k's. So if you're going with the long what was supposed to be the longest swim, Manhattan.
Justin Metzler:And then alright. Cool. And last one here. When are you coming over to Ironman to break the course Ironman Kona course record? Because you would have that locked easy.
Andy Donaldson:Well, if you could put together a team, get me in.
Justin Metzler:Alright. You got me in for the bike of the run. Easy. Sounds like a plan. So look.
Justin Metzler:Cool.
Andy Donaldson:I've been been to the Big Island. So and Hawaii is such a special place. I I think that would be epic.
Justin Metzler:Yeah, would totally be epic. Well, I appreciate the time. It was so good getting to know you and so many awesome takeaways here today. And yeah, just appreciate you coming on.
Andy Donaldson:No. Thanks, man. It was Yeah, I really enjoyed that one. And yeah, let's make this let's make this Kona team happen then.
Justin Metzler:Absolutely. Alright. Well, that's another episode of the Endurance Matters podcast.
Andy Donaldson:We'll see
Justin Metzler:you in the next one. Peace.