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A daily podcast delving into the biggest stories of the day throughout the sports betting and igaming sector.
Fernando Noodt (00:04.291)
In Brazil, it is becoming increasingly clear that the difficult existence of the Bets Law may be on death row. This week, Sao Paulo governor and conservat conservative heavyweight Tarcissio Di Freitas called for the outright prohibition of what he views as Brazil's failed experiment with online gambling. Meanwhile, President Lula Silva continues his attack on the regulatory regime implemented under his government, accusing those who resist the PT's attempts.
To overhaul gambling of siding with a powerful betting lobby. So will anyone stand up for Brazil's regulated betting market? Or is the vet laws is now the vet law dead man walking? Welcome to iGaming Daily, and your host for today, Fernando Nott, Media Manager for SBC. And I'm joined by the great editor of SBC Noticias Brazil to discuss all of this. Leonardo Biazzi, how are you today?
Leonardo (01:03.832)
Thanks, sir. I'm good. you are the great, not me.
Fernando Noodt (01:08.855)
You are the great editor of SBC Notice Brazil, actually. I am the great i period. Like, yeah, thank you very much. And also the great researcher, Anna Maria Menezes. How are you today?
Ana Maria (01:14.719)
Ha.
Leonardo (01:14.958)
Yeah.
Ana Maria (01:21.629)
good, fair of course, not as great as you are. Sure, we have established that. But yeah, pretty doing pretty well and excited honestly to talk a bit about Brazil today. Let's go.
Leonardo (01:25.762)
Yeah.
Fernando Noodt (01:34.095)
Yeah, absolutely a lot going on in Brazil. We have been covering these developments over the last few weeks here on iGaming Daily. And of course, SBC Noticias Brazil covers everything week by week. So make sure you are subscribed to SBC Noticias Brazil's newsletter to keep up to date with everything that goes on and of course follow us iGaming Daily on your preferred
podcasting platform as well as as well on social media. but before we start let me thank Optimove, the creator of positionless marketing and number one player engagement solution for iGaming and sports painting operators, proud partner of iGaming Daily. So Brazil, a lot going on, a lot we have been discussing. there's a lot of hashtag wait and see but there's a lot of hashtag
It's actually going on. Okay, let's not make that a hashtag. But Leo, can you explain who Tarcísicio de Freitas is and why his opposition to the bad slog carries significant political weight right now in Brazil?
Leonardo (02:37.964)
Of course. the best way to describe Tarcísio is he's actually a technocrat in the sense that before becoming the governor of Sao Paulo in 2022, he worked as a minister for Bolsonaro, minister of infrastructure, and he also worked in the Department of Transports for Dilma, actually, which is funny nowadays. But Tarcísio is a big name here in Brazil. Essentially, people think that he would be
A better candidate than Flavio Bolsonaro and of course Jair's hair, but he kind of waited for Bolsonaro to show support to him to give him like a thumbs up, like, yeah, you can run for president now. But that never happened because why would Jair Bolsonaro do that if he has four cents in polit in politics that doesn't add up? So he's running for governor again, he'll probably win in the first turn.
And he he is just a very very strong name in Brazil right now.
Fernando Noodt (03:46.703)
And of course, we have been discussing a lot about
How the the bats law may be like overturned, but that was because of President Lula da Silva himself was pushing for an overhaul of the gambling regulation framework in the country, even though his government enforced it in the first place. In the first place. But right now we're seeing this political figure, Tarcissio, and
his position. So do we think that this is a signal that Brazil's conservative bloc in opposition to Lula's bloc is now moving firm firmly in st against the continued existence of the Bets Law?
Ana Maria (04:32.765)
Fair. I I I I gotta say, it I I do believe that it's a bit hard to talk about this topic without considering that these are people who want to be elected and please all types of tears in society. So they need to appeal to a major part to be elected, right? That's the principle of democracy. and we saw that a bit a bit ago. So Flavio Bolsonaro is an example, he went on Instagram
to talk about betting and how it was affecting the life of Brazilians. but he said and the Lula government let that happen. It wasn't about the problem per se. It was about trying to push that the other candidate, the in this case Lula, that his government put everything in the back of the Brazilian the Brazilians actually. And now we have as well Tarcisio. But when he says, when he condemns, when he's like, Well I'm very worried about there's no proposition
there there's no actual plan. And he's the actual governor. This is the thing. He had all these years to also take care of that if we're thinking about the state of São Paulo, because that's what he's running for. he had all these years. He had all this time. And now that the campaign is happening, that's when things come to life. So honestly a lot of this discourse coming from these politicians just feels like the same repetition because they want to say
what people are saying and because there's someone who's easy to blame, I mean, like for in this case, the president, because you have something to say. Well this government, this president government regulated betting and that was bad. Okay, do you have anything to propose? Anything for the state that you should be taking care of? He's not running for president, he's running for the state of Sao Paulo. What do you have to say about that? There's no actual content, you know? So yeah.
Leonardo (06:29.992)
just to add up, in a nutshell, everybody's against betting in Brazil, the politicians right now. Like there ain't nobody pro betting. essentially like it's very unpopular right now to be pro betting because the narrative that's sort of winning in Brazil right now, and I've heard that from multiple people, is that betting is leading to indebtment. So politicians want to make to take a firm stance against betting to
distance themselves from from this.
Fernando Noodt (07:05.348)
And now the left is hostile, the right is hostile towards the Bets Law. How exactly did we get here? Is this entirely due to the the campaign for the election coming up, or is this like a a brother thing?
Leonardo (07:22.932)
I think we are just in full campaign mode to be honest. there's plenty to lose if you are Lula, for example. Even though Lula sanctioned, he authorized, he he made the the federal regulation, he tries to say right now that I am against it, but the Senate, the Chamber of Deputies will not let me put an end to this. So I have to I have to be with I have to
Sorry. So Lula is saying that he he wanted to to ban it, but he can't because of the other politicians. And I don't see the I don't see things calming like next year, for example, to be honest.
Fernando Noodt (08:21.932)
And speaking of things that change from one year to the next, I can only imagine how frustrating this must be for sports betting operators in Brazil that were promised a certain political f legal framework, operational framework and certain rules for the industry to operate in Brazil, a huge market with huge potential, and all of a sudden you have all these changes
apparently in the horizon even though we may be discussing like this is all campaign this is this a lot of this is smoke like you one may say and once the campaign the election passes s it it will die down eventually but there is
actual chance that the the the bed flow gets gets overhauled, gets changed, the regulation gets changed, the framework under which operators made their projections change. So what are we hearing from the licensed operators in Brazil in in terms of of all this uncertainty in the country?
Leonardo (09:33.295)
I was in a big event last week with executives and all. it was an event hosted by the National Association of Bets and Lotteries. So thing is everybody's pretty worried about everything that Lula says and not only Lula, but the thing is that sports betting sorry guys.
at this event everybody's really worried because they see that the government wants to add more restrictions to gambling, especially online casinos. That's where the government is putting their effort against because they think it it makes people more ex exited than sports betting. So it's really what I said before, the thing about the narrative, they think that
People already agreed that gambling is bad, betting is bad, and now it's the turn to try to change the narrative for the industry, like to try to defend the legal market, which is authorized to operate in Brazil, and fight against the legal market, which is still so so big in Brazil. We're talking about forty-one percent of of volume of the total market. So that's what the industry is thinking right now.
Ana Maria (11:01.486)
Honestly, and something that I believe it's worth mentioning, what I'm hearing from operators is also a lot of okay, we have a decision to make in terms of the industry when we're voting. There's also this sense of, okay, what are we gonna do? Who are we gonna vote in order to keep our jobs, in order to, you know, keep this industry running. So there's a lot of even though of course we have the macro view of this.
That is understanding the
Okay, the consequences for the whole country. Of course, who the person who lives their daily lives, they're thinking is okay, how how is this new candidate going to impact my life, the life of everyone around me, the life of my family? So it's again, it in this case you're thinking, not only who am I going to elect, in a lot of cases you're thinking, who is actually going to allow me to do my job? And the answer is, do we really have one that can make sure that
you know, that they're not gonna do anything. Just speaking, just talking, and what is actual, you know, firm actions about to to be developed. So that's the hard part I believe, trying to understand who's actually buffing for the sake of being elected and who will actually try to do something around it with the tools that they have. Because sometimes they don't even need to finish and actually stop betting from being legal.
Sometimes just damaging the reputation and make people scared enough to leave can be too useful enough. And I do believe that the government is achieving that. whether we like it or not, the government is achieving that.
Leonardo (12:46.07)
I think it's also worth mentioning to our readers, if you're not working in this industry, the legal operators aren't necessarily against more restrict more restrictions, more responsible gaming initiatives. They just want this the scenario to be pr somehow predictable. Like they don't want to see new restrictions being applied and having just three days, one week to to change things up. They don't want politicians proposing
Ana Maria (12:57.517)
Yes.
Ana Maria (13:12.781)
Yeah.
Leonardo (13:16.164)
too many restrictions in a short time. They want I don't know to to play like it's that's really what what's all about for them.
Fernando Noodt (13:25.699)
Crazy, huh? but yeah, you can expect people to to be expecting juridical certainty. Like that's the basic thing any business needs. but what we need right now is a very short commercial break. But we will be right back to continue discussing more about Brazil and the potential changes to the Bets Law. We'll be right back.
Fernando Noodt (17:30.581)
And we're back with more iGaming Daily to continue discussing the potential changes to the BETS law in Brazil after both Lula da Silva and the right-wing parties have been pushing for a potential overhaul of the regulatory framework in the country. But we have been covering the general overview of all of this situation. But let's now turn to Congress specifically. So, what exactly are Lula
and the PT, the the the workers party government w pushing for in terms of changing the best law. What's the specifics they want?
Leonardo (18:10.648)
Yeah, in terms of the Congress fur, as we spoke about in the later latest iGaming Daily episode about Brazil, is that Lula wants to approve or push for the approval of this bill that bans online casino before the election. But see that's not totally doable. Like how can you turn to the legal operators and say, nah, now we're changing things up, like let's remove what makes eighty percent of your prof profit
it and just like you can keep sports betting. that's that's not totally doable. I don't see that happening but it's it's that thing about about the narrative. Like
The way I I interpret Lula is that he has to tell his voters that he is against it, that he wants to make change changes so people don't come at him and say, Hey Lula, you let this thing happen, like you made people gamble more in Brazil, for example, and now people are losing money because of you. Like he he wants to keep a safe distance, I would say. And online casinos are an easy target for him. Like he can't come with
full force against sports betting because sports betting is actually funding Brazil football for example like a major the majority of the clubs in the top fight are sponsored by by an operator so the he has to he has to put his efforts in online against online casinos I'd say.
Fernando Noodt (19:46.049)
And I think you've you hit the spot there with the narrative. I think is especially ahead ahead of an election during the campaign process, the campaign period, the narrative is the number one priority for any anyone trying to run for for for for office, especially to run for for for a presidential election. So
Right now Lula's narrative is that gambling has no benefit for society, it's not contributing to society at all. So where is that coming from and how harmful is that for the regulated gambling industry? And of course once it's it gets hurt, how harmful is it for society in general? Because of course when the regulated gambling industry gets obstructed
There comes the the the illegal websites, the offshore websites, those without restruct restrictions, sorry. so where is this coming from, Anna?
Ana Maria (20:54.274)
So I do believe that w what we mentioned before about s repeating the same speech and just being shown in one statement and just sticking to it until the end of the campaign. I do believe it's something that is also happening here. And I say this because Lula was in a podcast on the fourteenth in which he said that there's no if there's no social reason for bass to stick around, then we should completely end them.
I do believe that what's missing here as well is a proposition instead of just betting something, understanding what's behind it. Okay, what is the social reason? is it because people are losing their money? Is it because the money is not coming back to them? But at the same time it is. We had a new report mentioning a new report made by sorry guys, because I forgot just the name of the report.
Ana Maria (21:54.423)
Okay.
Leonardo (21:54.584)
Do GGR que saiu na folha?
Ana Maria (21:57.815)
is we had a report, a recent report, with the data obtained by the Ministry of Finance and they showed this folder at São Paulo and that Brazilians deposited around 220 billion reais to sport to betting in 2025. However, something that I thought was interesting when mentioning when bringing this up.
is that there's no mention that around all all with all of this money eight eight a hundred and eighty three billions return to the players either in in bonuses or the actual you know money that they want back so we have 36 billion going to all these houses and of course people may think wow this is still a lot of money we there's also revenue and profit of course around this
But you're putting two hundred twenty mil billion opposed to thirty six billion. So i is a lot to to think about here. But also we if we think about the social reason of people getting together to bed, of people being together during matches because they want to just, you know, w we call it bologne in which everyone puts a bit of money in and whoever wins, well, i it's very normal everywhere, but whoever wins just gets the money again.
It's rooted in in the Brazilian mindset already. We have lotteries. Lotteries, people get together at the end of the year because they want to play somebody in the lottery and they all think, okay, what am I gonna do with the money if I win? We have churches who do bingos. Of course, it's different, but it's still it's it's common, it's very Brazilian rooted. So we have a lot of history with it, and I do think that operators should take advantage of this. Okay, Lula is saying that
There's no social reason, but there is. Brazilians like to do it and it's just a matter of how we do it safely, how we show this safely to them how to do it, you know. Of course we support and everything, but the there's a limit to what is fun to what makes sense in what Lula says about this. because there is a social reason and it's very clear but operators need to, you know, extract that, they need to show that to the public.
Ana Maria (24:25.952)
as well. Cause right now it's not being shown. Therefore people are not gonna think about it. They're gonna think about what's being placed to them in front of the screen when they open the phone. So yeah, at least that's how we said on it.
Leonardo (24:34.67)
It's pretty funny just to add up to this discussion about the social benefits. Lula said this, but in reality we have in Brazil Jogo do bicho, which has been illegal for years, and it notoriously funds the Brazilian Carnival, which is the best or the
the most bigger social manifestation of Brazil. Like you think of Brazil, you think of the carnival. And Jogo do Bicho is still illegal, but they know and these guys, they they're all almost all of them are free. Like they go to jail, they serve some time and come back to the street and like it's okay. Like we as a society accept accepted that I guess.
Fernando Noodt (25:24.295)
Regardless of whether it does have social benefits or if gambling contributes to society or if society is craving for something that is already doing, Lula appears determined to overhaul or even repeal the Vets Law before the October election. How realistic is a scenario where he actually does that?
Leonardo (25:46.675)
Nah, it it's zero percent realistic realistic, like I don't see happening. The government will try to to change things up regarding to online casino. There is this this talk, not this talk, the government talked with operators and said that it would ban autoplay, that it would implement a break between bet bats that you can do, like put in a a five second break.
Between one and another. But thing is, like, even though this was supposed to be implemented two weeks ago, it wasn't. The regulated operators were pretty mad again about it because, of course, it would change the dynamic, they would lose revenue. And most importantly, you can't implement this like in one week, in three days, as I was saying. Games, like a lot of games would be essentially.
While the illegal market offers five to eight K games, like the see it it it isn't feasible. The government should try to to fight against the illegal the the illegal gambling market as it is doing like for about two months ago Lula has intensified not Lula but the the government as a whole intensified the fight against illegal gambling and
because of poly big police operations like it it is like it is better right now.
Ana Maria (27:22.797)
Yes.
Fernando Noodt (27:28.243)
And of course, no matter who wins, let's hope whoever does win the
Presidential election next October, can get over this campaign fever and think of what's best not only for the gaming industry but for Brazilian society, of course. but right now we're gonna have to call it an episode. but if you want to keep up to date with everything going on in Brazil, make sure you subscribe to SVC Noticias Brazil's newsletter as well as every other SVC media newsletter, which will also pick up the most relevant.
stories from the Brazilian market and of course all markets in the gaming industry around the world. Thank you very much, Leo, Anna. Thank you very much Ne McDonald for producing this episode. I'm Fernando Nott and to our listeners out there we'll see you in the next one. Goodbye.
Leonardo (28:26.147)
Oof.