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Becoming sustainably human at work isn't a small undertaking. It often means letting go of systems and behaviors that don't serve us individually or collectively.
So what do we do? As individuals, as groups of folks, as leaders? How do we carve out space for our humanity while making sure we're not the only ones? How do we thrive in the workplace while not imagining we must be superhuman? How do we cultivate spaces that are generative and healing, creative and extraordinary?
I don't have the answers to those questions. And, to be fair, I don't believe one human can EVER have all the answers to those questions. I'm working through those questions every day.
This podcast curates for you a set of folks with an opinion worth listening to and sharing. So join me as I ask people I admire to share their wisdom with you in accessible doses.
Join me on my quest to become sustainably human at work.
Welcome to What's Leadership?
I'm Liz Wiltsie.
The more I learn about leadership,
the more I'm convinced there's
not a one size fits all solution.
So I am on my own learning journey
and I invite you to join me.
EbonyJanice reminds me that being
open about my journey is important.
Each episode features someone I admire
with actionable insight to share.
So please join me as I
ask what's leadership?
Today I'm welcoming Jake Ernst
who is a therapist, writer, and
speaker based in Toronto, Canada.
In his work, Jake is interested in
unexplored feelings, unprocessed trauma,
and unmet attachment needs in childhood
and adolescents as catalysts for mental
unhealth and unwellness in adulthood.
Jake works with teens, young
adults, and parents primarily.
Through speaking, workshops, and
writing Jake explorers, the bold and
vulnerable stories, which are rarely
told or brought to the forefront.
He dives deep into the uncomfortable
and seeks to expand and reimagine
our understanding of how
relationships, pain, trauma, and
mental health impact our lives.
He also just launched a podcast
called "This Isn't Therapy."
And, he pioneered a framework called
Routes of Safety, which has changed the
way that I think about a lot of things.
And that's really why I asked
him to be here, because I think
there's so much to talk about.
So Jake, thank you so
much for being with me.
What what, this is so exciting.
I'm so happy to be here.
So Jake, tell me, I know someone
has said Routes of Safety are
trauma informed, love languages.
Do you think that's accurate?
Not accurate?
Where are you?
Yeah.
yeah, that was actually me that said that.
I thought someone else said it.
So that's actually the best way I
can explain what the Routes of Safety
model is by relying on kind of another
well-established framework to be able to
really kinda get down to the nitty gritty
of how I understand this model, but also
how I understand that it can be applied.
I draw on the love languages framework
as kind of, a baseline for explaining
what the Routes of Safety model is,
because I think it's fluid and dynamic.
And I think it changes as we
grow in our relationships.
And then also just like in our ways
of seeking and looking for love.
And so the Routes of Safety model
is the exact same in that it's fluid
dynamic and that it is constantly
changing and growing and moving
like, as you are growing, expanding
healing, all those types of things.
So for folks who aren't as familiar
with it, as I am, walk them through
what Routes of Safety is and how they
could sort of get at it in their lives.
Of course.
So the Routes of Safety model is a,
like I said, it's a fluid and dynamic
model where, I kind of look at it
like a wheel, in the sense that there
are eight different spokes to it.
And so the eight different spokes
or the eight different routes
are descriptors for the ways in
which we fluidly access safety.
And so just off the top of my head,
I can tell you about a few of them.
So one of them is inner guidance.
And so this is the Route of Safety
that I think a lot of wellness
practitioners use and apply, pretty
liberally, but also pretty commonly.
And so that is all the inner resources
that we help people use in order to access
a sense of safety within themselves.
And the way that I understand that
specifically is through the language
of self guidance, or inner guidance.
And so, that one specifically is about
all the ways that within ourselves we
can resource our own sense of safety.
In creating this model, what I was really
particularly aware of was the ways in
which that is different for everybody.
So some of the spokes or some
of the Routes are relational.
Meaning that we can't get that sense
of safety without being in relationship
with someone else or something else.
And so part of what that looks like is
a, those can be like sensory experiences.
So like a connection to my senses,
through my experience of the world with
other people or with other objects such
as, nature, or just like being out and,
perhaps using a hobby, perhaps being
involved in a social movement, those can
be a relational experience that we have.
So, one of the spokes
is sensory experiences.
One is also a quality relationships.
One is also, common humanity, which
really is just about that, like
really common, like form of connection
that allows us to access safety.
And so really in terms of Routes of
Safety, the way that I define safety is
through the language of finding ways for
our nervous system at like a very kind
of core level, to feel a sense of calm,
relationality, connection, availability.
And so part of what that looks like for
a lot of people is not necessarily like
an absolute form of safety, but actually
just a safer or a safest, practice.
So I don't look at safety as a binary.
It's not like you're
either safe or unsafe.
I look at it as a spectrum.
We're always moving on this like scale of
like moving towards things that are safer
or moving towards things that are safest.
So it's not to say that
there's only one safety option.
And so the way that I capture, and
this is I guess, the fundamental
component of the Routes of Safety,
is that we are always safety seeking.
And so that's the language that I use to
describe how we move in terms of locating
our Routes or which Routes are most safe
for us, is this idea of safety seeking.
I know one of my favorites
is structure and certainty.
Oh yeah.
I forgot to mention that little gem.
And I will just say for folks, there will
be just details for you and Jake has this
written up on his website in ways that
can be accessed as well as his Instagram,
which I will link you to as well.
So, so Jake, one of the things, when
I started, digging into this via
a webinar with you, and then your
Instagram, was thinking about the way
Routes of Safety play out at work.
And how both as individuals we
can, kind of, help ourselves.
And then also as leaders, how
we can kind of keep the Routes
of Safety open for other people.
So I'm wondering if you have some thoughts
about Routes of Safety in the workplace.
Oh, I love that.
Keeping Routes of Safety
open for other people.
I think that is just fundamental
to a workplace that is safe, right.
Is allowing people to decide,
for themselves, like how they
want to access safety at work.
One of my great learning role
models, Kim Katrin, she often
talks about, the golden rule.
So, we know the golden rule
is treat others the way
that you want to be treated.
And she does a really amazing
reframe of the golden rule and she
calls it the new golden rule and
the new golden rule is treat people
how they would like to be treated.
As opposed to assuming that
everyone wants to be treated the
way that we want to be treated.
And I think that is just so profound and
it's actually a way that I incorporate
the Routes of Safety in my work with
clients, but then also, in a lot of
the trainings that are done, like in
workplaces or training for staff as
a way to apply this, in their lives.
And so I always sort of suggest that
the number one way that we can apply
this at work is we have to know
how it functions within ourselves.
And we have to have, we have to
start cultivating that own awareness
of how is this showing up for me?
Personally.
The only way that we're going to really
be able to recognize those dynamics in
other people, or to be able to apply
it in say like our workplace, which is
a really like a, it's just, you know,
a group of people coming together.
It's a big relational experience.
And, it's also not an experience
that we've chosen in terms of, you
know, who we, sort of are taking
up space with, which means that
there are many things that are in
our control and out of our control.
Largely the way that I say that we need to
start thinking about in the frame of which
we should come at this with is we have to
start applying it to ourselves so that we
can start to apply it for other people.
Yeah.
One of the things that stuck with me
from the jump, talking about this was
what you said, but the idea that we
can't figure it out for somebody else.
Like you actually, in your first,
the first webinar that I went
to about this, there's a slide
that's like, what is safety?
And you're like jokes on you.
It's not like such a
thing, there's not one way.
No.
To get there.
Do you think it's fair to say
that, one of the mistakes, a lot
of leaders make is assuming that
like there's only one or two.
Yeah, exactly.
And I think that, to expand on that,
one of the biggest mistakes that I
see leaders making is assuming that
people are accessing safety in the same
ways that they need to access safety.
And so instead of asking people
like, you know, what is it that you
need to feel successful at work?
Or what is it that you
need to feel safe at work?
We often assume that we all need to
feel safe in the same way that we do.
And that's why I like, using the
love languages model too, because
I think that's also equally
true, in applying a model or a
framework, like the love languages.
Right.
And so, I like Routes of Safety because
it's dynamic and relational in the sense
that, I can figure out how it is that
I personally access safety, but I can
also use the exact same model, and the
same tool to figure out and map out for
people how they can access safety too.
And so it again, shows the idea
that we don't have to have the
same Routes and that's okay.
Right.
But really the core, and like the
what's at the root of it all, is
just, again, the fact that safety is
an important part of feeling well.
Yeah.
I actually think about the ways
that they can be implemented on
an organizational wide level.
So like one of them is also private
retreat, mine are private retreat,
structure and certainty, and
I'm pretty sure inner guidance.
Are we the same person?
The idea that like, some people are
gonna need to feel connected and some
people are going to need an escape hatch.
And like both of those things kind
of need to exist in a physical space.
And then there's, you know, common
humanity pieces and protective
pieces where people need to feel
like they're being cared for.
And what's interesting is that, in the
worksheet this is true, but definitely
on your Instagram post about it,
there's a longer list under inner
guidance, there's like 12 things.
And so I have actually taken those
posts and like circled the ones that
apply to me and what I find is, and I've
asked other people to do that as well.
And I find it really helpful.
But, I find there's something in each of
the eight buckets that is real for me.
So I may say like, those are sort of
my three heavy hitters, which is true.
But there's some thing in each of
them that I'm like, yes, yes to that.
Exactly.
I call the model the great equalizer,
because what it does is it, actually just
sorta, like you're saying is it, allows
us to draw on each of them and allows
us to see the value in each of them.
But then also at the very same
time, have our preferences.
Right.
Or have like maybe our most safe options.
And what I like about it is that it,
and what people might find, is that it's
actually dependent upon the situation.
It's dependent on the environment
that changes our Routes of Safety.
And, I think in terms of, that great
equalizer idea, it's this idea that
actually no Route of Safety has a
judgment or a value attached to it.
They're all equally allowed, accessible,
and they're all equally, I'm trying
to just really sort of paint a picture
that like there's no value put on them.
They're all available to us.
In the way that we need them to be.
And I don't mean that like, everyone can
access like certain Routes in the same
ways, because we know that is not true.
There are certain Routes of Safety that
are absolutely and indeed a privilege
to be able to access and utilize.
But I do think that there is availability
just in terms of, finding some sense
of safety in all of those different
buckets kind of, as you were saying.
And, I've gotten this question a lot.
Like how does this apply to people who are
experiencing ongoing violence or ongoing
oppression where safety is not a resource
that is absolutely, or as accessible.
And that's why I liked the idea of
framing it just in terms of, well
we're just trying to move the meter.
We're just trying to get a little
bit safer or trying to access safety
in a new, and maybe a little bit
more of a regulating kind of way.
And so it's not to say that you're
ever going to achieve full safety.
Cause, to your earlier comment around the
definition of safety, I don't, no one is
ever completely and indefinitely safe.
Again, we're just constantly moving
in and out of this idea of feeling
more safe, more regulated, and
more available for connection.
So there's a piece in there of a
hierarchy within sort of mental health.
Right.
And you said it at the beginning that a
lot of therapy relies on inner guidance,
but like inner guidance is one of eight.
And so this notion where, you know,
and what we see a lot, I think in the
sort of modern wellness, the sort of
pseudoscience wellness, and I'm not
saying that is what this is, but like
that sort of Instagram wellness, that says
like breath work and meditation, which
no shame on breath work and meditation,
but that it's like one of many.
And if we start thinking that's
the best way for everyone, then
we're missing this broader idea.
And then people are sort of, like feel
shame about the ways they feel safe.
Like, I think there is some of that in
terms of, I know one of yours, under
private retreat is like a dark room.
Right.
And there is some sort of stigma around,
like, I need to retreat to a place that
has no humans and no stimulus where
plenty of folks feel like that's not okay.
So I think there's that
piece in it as well.
Absolutely.
And I think also what you're highlighting
is the fact that a lot of our Western,
or Eurocentric models of healing, they
tend to focus on like the individual.
They tend to focus on, what
is the individual's capacity
to change their world?
To change their perspective?
To change their mindset?
And then access this, like imaginary
or this like unique form of like,
where we were like, symptoms are
gone or like, we, like, we don't
have anxiety or something like that.
Right.
And I think that is dangerous
thinking, first of all.
But I also think that, it's a lot
more complex and necessarily complex.
Because, I am of the belief
that just as humans and as a
species, we're a social species.
We need relationships
in order to stay well.
We need community in order to stay well.
And so that was at the forefront of my
development of this model, because I know
that we can't just do it by ourselves.
We can't, we just can't, a lot of the
work, a lot of the choices that we make
will be ours and we'll, a lot of the work
is obviously from within and we can heal
from the inside out sort of, so to speak.
But I like to use the analogy of like,
you know, if we were to go away and
like isolate ourselves, like in the
woods, like by ourselves and be forced
to kind of heal from a lot of the hurt
that we've experienced in our life.
I'm just not convinced that we
would totally be able to do it.
By ourselves in that kind of isolatory.
By ourselves kind of way.
Which just speaks to like the power of
connection, but also speaks to the ways
in which safety is very relational and
safety is very much dependent upon, our
relationships, the culture in which we
live, our upbringing, our parenting,
the parenting that we received maybe,
and also the parenting that we're
giving or reproducing what also, just
like how we experience the world.
And so that's why I like models that
are more dynamic and like I'll offer
nuance and offer multiple explanations.
Because to your point, I think that also
allows us to escape some of the shame.
So Jake, the other question I like to ask
everybody is what are you grappling with?
Oh, what am I grappling with?
I'm grappling with, what I'm going to
eat for dinner because I'm really hungry.
I'm grappling with a lot of the the
complex parts about being human.
I'm grappling with a lot of the
things that you're kind of mentioning
around, like social media use, and
grappling with this idea of what
parts of me are allowed to show up
on a platform such as Instagram.
Where I'm showing up, obviously as a
therapist, but I want to be a human first.
I'm grappling with the idea of,
being able to show up as all the
complex and whole parts of myself.
And not just like one specific
box of what my profession sort
of mandates that I show up as.
I'm grappling with the idea that I want
to be a complex human, but also, know
that like I'm also a pretty simple person.
I think that I'm holding like
many of those parts too that,
like, that's challenging.
And then I'm also grappling with
the fact that, you can see them
grappling with a lot of things.
So I'm just going to keep going.
I'm grappling with the fact
that our culture is so like fast
paced and wants us to speed up.
And my body wants me to slow down.
And I think that part of, how that just
shows up for me is the fact that, I'm
grappling with the fact that I'm a white
person in 2020, right now, and there's a
lot of racial trauma that has, not only
come to the surface, because it's been
at the surface and it's been here for a
long time, but I'm grappling with sort
of what my role is in all of that and
how I can meaningfully show up for, not
only just the Black people in my life,
but also just my Black clients or people,
who are not having a good go right now.
Yeah, I guess there's
room for it all, right.
Anything from, the ways that the pandemic
is sitting for folks all the way down to
what I'm going to have for dinner tonight.
So all of it and
grappling with it all Liz.
I grapple with what I'm
eating for dinner all the time.
Yeah, I know.
It's funny you say that because I go
down, I always kind of return it back
to like, what are my basic needs?
As someone who like growing up, like
didn't really get to like figure that out.
Cause I only really started to figure
that out, like, as it became an adult.
But, it just fascinating just like when
you start to tune into your body and
be like, oh, I'm thirsty right now.
Or like, oh, I have to use the bathroom.
Right.
And like those are some of the basic
needs that I think go to the wayside,
like when we're not in tune with what
our body needs in this current moment.
And I'm constantly working at that.
I'm constantly like checking with my
body and having to consciously do that.
So.
Yeah.
Yeah.
For those of us who weren't raised
that way, it's tricky to like,
learn that later feels much harder.
It's like a whole new language.
Right.
And that's the challenging part.
Jake, thank you so much.
This has been lovely.
I appreciate you.
I always love chatting with you.
Holy crap.
Love chatting.
For detailed show notes, please
visit 4needs.work/podcast.
If you liked this episode, subscribe
on your favorite podcast platform.
Jake's Routes of Safety model is
featured in A Field Guide to Naming Your
Needs at Work, which is an interactive
tool with more than 30 exercises to
help you live your best work life.
It is also available at 4needs.work.