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The Bigger Stage w/ Matt Stone is a conversation series about leadership, relationships, and the stories that expand influence.
Matt Stone sits down with CEOs, founders, leaders, and creatives to explore the human moments behind growth—how trust is built, how visibility changes responsibility, and how storytelling becomes a leadership skill as stakes rise.
This show is for entrepreneurs and leaders stepping into bigger roles, bigger audiences, and bigger impact—who want to lead with clarity, credibility, and connection, not performance.
Full Episode - TBS - Kevin Nolan
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[00:00:00] Kevin Nolan: But I am no longer the biggest voice in the room, and I struggled. I, I struggled really. It was tough those last 18 months in particular. I never was a painter. I was an entrepreneur. I, I think at 19, I think I said, I'm an entrepreneur. That's what I am. He was walking around the stage and he basically got down on one knee and he stared at me 20 rows back and he said, you can get anything you want in the world if you can just
[00:00:30] Matt Stone: Today's guest built one of the most successful residential painting companies in the country, from a college student with a paintbrush and a roommate to the largest painting contractor in Southeastern Pennsylvania.
[00:00:41] But this isn't really a story about paint or painting. It's a story about what it takes to build something from nothing about the years of quietly reinvesting every dollar back into the business while everybody else thinks you're getting rich about standing at the edge of a cliff more than once, and
[00:00:58] figuring out how to step back [00:01:00] from it, how to overcome, about building people into millionaires, not just building a company. Kevin Nolan didn't just grow Nolan painting into an industry leading operation. He became a recognized authority in his field, formed a consulting company, wrote a book, and then did something many founders struggle to do.
[00:01:19] He actually let go. Now in what he calls the happiest chapter of his life, Kevin is proof that the story doesn't end when you exit the business. It just gets more interesting. Kevin, welcome to the bigger stage.
[00:01:33] Kevin Nolan: Wow. What an intro. I tell you what, that's gotta be my, my obit. That's gotta be my obituary.
[00:01:40] Matt Stone: I'll send you the contract.
[00:01:41] Kevin Nolan: Yeah. No kidding. You did. I I did all that.
[00:01:44] Matt Stone: Yeah, yeah. Do you want fireworks too? We can do, we can arrange whatever you need,
[00:01:50] Kevin Nolan: I
[00:01:50] Matt Stone: so.
[00:01:50] Kevin Nolan: I'm always talking about my death. My kids are always like, stop it.
[00:01:54] Matt Stone: Oh, I know. I'll bet they do. Yeah.
[00:01:56] Kevin Nolan: I think when you do, when you sort have that. Makes you present [00:02:00] and realizes it's about now and life, not death, I mean.
[00:02:03] Matt Stone: You know, I, when I crossed the 50 year mark last year, I started thinking about it way more. There was something that clicked for, I was like, Oh my goodness, there is a high likelihood that I'm well over halfway done. And I just, I went,
[00:02:17] Kevin Nolan: yeah. It's a high likelihood. All
[00:02:18] Matt Stone: I very high likelihood. I mean, there are people out there.
[00:02:21] Kevin Nolan: middle age. You're no longer middle age.
[00:02:23] Matt Stone: Yeah. yeah, yeah.
[00:02:24] Kevin Nolan: But I'm here to tell you, and I think I told you when, uh, we were talking earlier, uh, the fifties were my best years of my life, amazing. And I was able to say that up until recently, when the post 65 sixties are really turning out amazing.
[00:02:40] So, uh, maybe the best is always yet to come.
[00:02:45] Matt Stone: I like to just believe that in general, um, you know, it's there's hard times, but I mean, if you don't believe that, what else do you have? Right? Yeah.
[00:02:53] Kevin Nolan: yeah, it's an optimistic view on life that, I mean. Don't dwell on what's not, dwell on what you could be and what's [00:03:00] gonna be, and things like that. Yeah,
[00:03:01] Matt Stone: So Kevin, we're gonna talk about a lot of things in the next, you know, however many minutes. But I just wanna start off, you know, as you're in this reflective mode, you're also moving to a new stage.
[00:03:11] Um, and there's been many stages along the way. You know, and I kind of wanna get into that. Our audience is interested in entrepreneurial journeys and the human side of it, and how you change as you move to new and sometimes bigger stages.
[00:03:25] But go back to, I think you, you, how old were you? Was it 19 when you started the business? I
[00:03:32] was 19, right? So a few.
[00:03:33] years ago. Just let's, I, wanna start out with just this. You're talking to yourself at 19. You got one sentence that you could say, and then you're out. That's it. That you can only say one thing to your 19-year-old self.
[00:03:46] Now knowing what, you know, what,
[00:03:49] what's the sentence?
[00:03:50] Kevin Nolan: tri, but I think the sentence is, is I'm an entrepreneur. I think that's when I, I mean, I knew I was an entrepreneur. I knew it. I identified, I [00:04:00] tried to be it, I tried to identify with what are the best practices of entrepreneurship and, you know, I'm one of seven kids. I think it's fair to say that I'm the entrepreneur of the family.
[00:04:10] Don't get me wrong. My brother is, you know, has his own law firm and he, you know, he has his own business, but he's a lawyer. Um, and, uh, my other brother has his own business, but he's a consultant. I never was a painter. I was an entrepreneur. I, I think at 19, I think I said, I'm an entrepreneur. That's what I am.
[00:04:33] And because frankly, I think I was struggling to identify as a student or as a athlete, or even as a teenager, I was just struggling to identify. I found what I was, I know that's not a job description, but in a lot of ways it is.
[00:04:50] Matt Stone: Well, it's, yeah, I mean, it's a, the, the painting was the method that you use to express yourself. But I think, I think that's probably true for artists. You know, it's [00:05:00] like knowing you're an artist, knowing that entrepreneurship, that's how I relate to it. 'cause I'm also a licensed attorney, but I've known I'm an entrepreneur and have an entrepreneurial spirit from a very young age.
[00:05:11] I, I'm wondering when you, can you remember back then when you were in your teens figuring this out, do you remember who you looked at as a, a model to, I mean, usually we're looking at somebody, how did you know that word? Like, who did you look to?
[00:05:25] Kevin Nolan: yeah. So I mean, I, I remember I did, I think I only had one job ever for anybody else, but working for myself and. That guy was an entrepreneur. I mean, I remember he owned a bunch of different businesses and you know, he, I think he owned like, um, a hoagie shop and he also owned a delivery service. And you know, they weren't even connected.
[00:05:45] But I remember thinking it's just cool to basically have an enterprise and from the get go. I never, I think one year when I hadn't sort of discovered it yet, I think I was [00:06:00] 18 that year, I hadn't sort of had my entrepreneurial seizure yet. for one year I worked by my lonesome, painting houses and I thought, this is terrible.
[00:06:10] Oh my God, I hate it. Um, what about if I hired a couple of folks to help me? And that was sort of the beginning of my entrepreneurial journey, is hiring people. To do things, um, not, not necessarily instead of me, maybe alongside of me, but then realizing the power of being able to hire other people and work together, build teams, get things done, finish painting the house, pushing for the completion of that job and, and all that.
[00:06:43] And, um, yeah, from the beginning, what sort of set me apart was hiring people, just basically putting people to work.
[00:06:51] I wanted to be legit. I wanted to be able to provide good wages and benefits for my employees.
[00:06:58] 'cause if you couldn't do some of those things, [00:07:00] you weren't doing it right.
[00:07:02] Matt Stone: yeah, Yeah,
[00:07:04] yeah,
[00:07:04] But, um, but actually I kind of viscerally respond to when you said, you first hired. 'cause I remember, you know, you and I, I started a, I had a painting franchise when I was like 20, so about the same time.
[00:07:15] So
[00:07:16] Kevin Nolan: you guys were kind of, I mean, I remember looking at them thinking, huh? Like they were a legitimate going concern across the entire United States into Canada. Right.
[00:07:26] Matt Stone: I think they were from Toronto or can I think it originated from Canada?
[00:07:31] Um,
[00:07:32] Kevin Nolan: big impact on me. I'm a college student painting houses, and
[00:07:35] Matt Stone: yeah.
[00:07:36] Kevin Nolan: there's a college pro.
[00:07:38] Matt Stone: Yeah.
[00:07:39] Yeah.
[00:07:39] Kevin Nolan: I wanna do better.
[00:07:41] that has driven me in a huge way in the last 30 year, 20, 30 years, to be invulnerable. So I thought, I am not going to, I'm not gonna have chinks. If I know about a chink, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go find it and fix it. And so, whether it was, you know, everything from how we dispose of [00:08:00] our trash to the, to the equipment we use to the people we hire, it literally has to be the right way.
[00:08:07] Um, and I'm not saying I've always done it the right way, I'm just saying that's the goal. I didn't want to run a business that was vulnerable. That's probably one of the bigger imp uh, impetuous is that vulnerability. If you know about it, you need to fix it.
[00:08:22] Matt Stone: Absolutely. Now, you told me a great story about when you started the business. I just didn't want to gloss over it because I think you talked about your father's support. And tell me about how he supported you. It was such a great way to support a son, I thought, uh, in starting the business.
[00:08:38] Kevin Nolan: I mean, so many ways. You know, I once had a, I once went to a seminar and it turns out that I was looking for, for my father's approval all the time. You know, they, they do some, uh, searching. They find out that what motivates you? Well, it turns out paternal approval was a big one. Um, but he, um, I remember story where like he lent me the [00:09:00] family station wagon in those first year or two, and I used to have to drive him to the train station at seven in the morning.
[00:09:06] And, um, he would basically like tear me up if the, if the, if the car was messy. And so I would have to pick him up again at 7:00 PM He was usually too tired to pay much attention, but the next morning at 7:00 AM he was giving me a hard time about things and, um, and it really taught me some lessons about like, the values that you need to have.
[00:09:31] And one of the values that I, that I pretty much learned at that time was, you know, be neat, be clean when you're using somebody else's stuff. In fact, he once said to me, Kevin, I don't, I don't mind lending you a car, but I want it back cleaner than you found it. And I want it filled with gas. And I'm always thinking to myself.
[00:09:51] That's what I wanna do. I want to, I want to add value, uh, to every relationship, including the one I had with my dad. I wanna add [00:10:00] value to it. And adding value. Turns out running a value-based business is probably the single biggest thing after vision, after your vision of a business. The next biggest thing is like, what are your values?
[00:10:12] And um, I think at the time I didn't even realize I was developing these values, but I remember firing like my first employee because he wasn't treating my dad's car, right? I was like, he was my friend. We were buddies, and I'm firing him. I, I'm like, I warned you. I've warned you like three or four times now I'm gonna have to let you go.
[00:10:34] Holy cow. I had never done that before. And so, yeah, so
[00:10:38] Matt Stone: What? What was he doing? Just outta curiosity for those of us who like gossip.
[00:10:43] Oh
[00:10:43] Kevin Nolan: in it, you know, like more than once, I'm
[00:10:45] Matt Stone: yeah.
[00:10:46] Kevin Nolan: cow,
[00:10:47] Matt Stone: Yeah.
[00:10:47] Kevin Nolan: gonna get me in. Huge trouble. but more than that is, I'd asked them not to. It was disrespectful and, um, yeah. So it's amazing the things that [00:11:00] you learn at an early age.
[00:11:01] You don't even know they're sinking in, but they end up becoming part of your value system. And, and, you know, that is one of our, one of my values is always bring more value than you, than you're taking. Always bring it. So any group I belong to, I try to bring value and I want, when I walk into a room, by the way, I've, seems to rubbed off on my kids as well, which is awesome.
[00:11:24] So,
[00:11:25] Matt Stone: It is, this is such a deep, I was actually reflecting on it this morning that, that I find it to be, I don't know how you relate to this, but it's so easy when you have, you, we all have needs the Maslow's arch of needs. You know, you gotta get food, you gotta take care of your family. So you default to thinking about what I need.
[00:11:43] And yet really the greatest businesses are built on staying in the mindset and the needs of other people, like your workers, your employee, you know, your customers, your clients, whoever, your community. I know you've been of service to, you know, chambers of commerce and, and community groups, et cetera. [00:12:00] So, um, I, I just think that that's worthy of even a, a completely separate conversation about like how you stay in that mindset of value.
[00:12:09] But let me ask you that question though. How have you stayed in that mindset? Is it just natural to you or do you find yourself
[00:12:17] having to come back to it. and,
[00:12:18] Kevin Nolan: I, have to come back to it.
[00:12:19] Matt Stone: yeah.
[00:12:20] Kevin Nolan: I have to self-correct a lot, my own interior thinking. I, I, I constantly say, don't listen to yourself. Talk to yourself. Meaning, like, if you're saying, eh, I don't like something, you gotta say. What do you wanna say about it? Like, if you could have your intellect be involved here, what would you tell yourself?
[00:12:38] And so I try to talk to myself, keep myself out of negative places and things like that. but I, I talk, um, in my book about, um, my second entrepreneurial seizure. Um, and that was really literally, so I run this business for 15, 18 years and I don't really spend much time in the future, mostly just dealing with day-to-day [00:13:00] problems and things aren't getting better, they're actually getting worse.
[00:13:03] Like I don't seem to, seem to be answering my problems. I seem to be digging bigger holes and things like that. And then in 1997 I went to a, a seminar, uh, where the great Zig Ziglar was speaking. And uh, Zig, you know, it's funny 'cause Zig was 72 at the time, you know, older than I am by a good bit.
[00:13:25] And he was full of energy and he. He was walking around the stage and he basically got down on one knee and he stared at me 20 rows back and he said, you can get anything you want in the world if you can just help other people get what they want. it's that whole values piece again. And you start to realize, so I'm at this conference with my brand new salesman, John.
[00:13:52] And John is somebody who I really liked. I was worried about hiring another sales, hiring a salesperson to replace me. [00:14:00] so, but I did hire John. He was an Eagle Scout. He was basically a paint representative for Sherwin Williams. And I stole him away and I begged him to come. And I felt great about him.
[00:14:10] And, and I thought, I'm gonna practice this on John. I'm gonna find out what John wants in the world and, and help him get what he wants. And long story short, John is my CEO now. 30 years later. And, um, yeah, John's doing very well in the world because, um, I helped him get what he wants and he obviously has helped me in a big way.
[00:14:36] Matt Stone: It's amazing. Yeah.
[00:14:38] And you've, you've obviously invested a lot in the, the relationship and, and a mutual growth, uh, uh, a high growth relationship, I guess,
[00:14:46] Kevin Nolan: somebody that works for you, what do you want? And then really listening and remembering, even remembering conversations from, I remember 20 years ago you said you wanted, you know, like to work in that direction with them and to be in [00:15:00] tandem and to be on the same page working.
[00:15:02] It's the ultimate form of human collaboration, is really what separates us from all the other animals is that we can really work together. And I mean, it's safe to say I love John and you know, I, I want for him anything I can get and help and do. I want that. And the more you can do that with your people, with the people you surround yourself with, your friends, your family, and all your workers, holy cow, that's like steroids.
[00:15:30] It's like you got a superpower
[00:15:33] Matt Stone: and
[00:15:33] I,
[00:15:33] Kevin Nolan: listening and helping.
[00:15:35] Matt Stone: And I imagine too, you, you build an organization where people who, even, even people who leave the organization, you have a higher likelihood that they're gonna leave And and be advocates for your, they're gonna be sending you clients, sending you employees.
[00:15:46] Kevin Nolan: And maybe come back. It's
[00:15:49] Matt Stone: and maybe come back. Yeah, That's how you really compound.
[00:15:52] I wanna talk about the stages. So the first stage is you recognizing I'm an, I'm different from my siblings, I am an [00:16:00] entrepreneur, they're d there are different characters. That was the first step. Then you actually started this business. You and a paint can, and, and your dad's a station wagon, which is just part, I dunno how you keep that clean.
[00:16:10] I had a station wagon too. Impossible to keep it clean. It was like,
[00:16:14] Kevin Nolan: Almost.
[00:16:15] Matt Stone: very hard. Even if you're really good, it's really hard. People, if you've never worked with paint. yeah.
[00:16:21] Um, so there's that stage. And I Kevin, I don't know how you see it and I'm kind of curious how you view now that you've got Quite a bit. of perspective looking back on the, on the decades, you still got a long way to go, but, but you've got, you know, you've got quite a bit to, to look at and I look at it like.
[00:16:39] You reach a new stage and you kind of get comfortable in that stage for a little bit. Often there's like a period of like, oh, I got it Right.
[00:16:48] until, until you, until it's time to grow again. How do you see kind of those stages when you started off as a late teen and then you hired your first people? [00:17:00] What was the, then there was an uncomfortable period after that.
[00:17:03] Can you, how do you describe the, the first few stages that you went through and how you got through them?
[00:17:09] Kevin Nolan: Yeah, so the first few stages are, I think, where most entrepreneurs spend some time, and obviously the exceptional ones figure it out sooner, but I coach young entrepreneurs in their late twenties and, and mid thirties. It seems like around that time period that they either get, either they start to change if they're struggling.
[00:17:28] If they're struggling, then they're not. not that super entrepreneur that figured it out. They're struggling and then they, they, they realize they need to change. Uh, and of course, entrepreneurship is, has built in change. Like you need to accept change. If you stop changing, you're, we really have to get rid of the moniker.
[00:17:45] You are no longer an entrepreneur. Um, part of it is the, the ability to accept change, adapt to change, adapt to change quickly, um, feel good about change, help other people along with change. So, I, I, I, I mean, [00:18:00] I hate to say it, but a lot of it was just raising kids. I had four kids you know, my wife was going for her masters and then she got a full-time job.
[00:18:09] And so I think for 17 years I was like in the dark looking, looking just a couple of inches in front of me, maybe, maybe all the way till Friday when I needed to hit payroll. And I didn't like it. I really was not happy. And that's why I was looking for Zig, that's why I went to that Zig. And so it's a strange thing that happened.
[00:18:27] I'm 37 years old and then. of a sudden I have my second entrepreneurial seizure and it was triggered by Zigs comment. I, I mean, I, I'm, I get like all sentimental when I think about it was that day. And I literally came back from that conference, a changed person, reinvigorated with, um, with a whole bunch of things.
[00:18:50] By the way, he didn't just say, he didn't just say, you know, you can get anything you want. He said, alright everybody, I want you to write this down. And I remember he said, write this [00:19:00] down. And I'm like, I'm ready Zig.
[00:19:03] Matt Stone: It to.
[00:19:03] Kevin Nolan: uh, man, like I didn't have to write it down. I did write it down, but it's like been in imprinted in my brain almost.
[00:19:08] If I had TA tattoo, that's probably what it would be. because then I went on my second entrepreneurial se seizure where I started to. So not never was a great student. Went, went to college, got out. Um, but it was really, I, I was, uh, I struggled to read a whole book, tension Span Issues, you know, the whole classic entrepreneurial a DD syndrome.
[00:19:34] Um, but I discovered, um, at the time it was books on tape and then it became books on cd and then obviously it's Audible. Um, and, um, and the library, I get books from the library now on on. But I listened to them um, it was an effective way, use of time. Um, it was a, a little bit passive in the sense that I didn't have to turn pages and be involved in the reading and I could do other [00:20:00] things like paint.
[00:20:00] I mean, I'm painting or I am driving to do estimates or, um, I'm running and I am listening to a book on tape. And I remember I went to the CEO of Vanguard Group. Vanguard Group, huge financial institution. I'm painting the CEO's bedroom on his bedstand Is the book Good To Great. And I read, uh, I read the book.
[00:20:26] I couldn't read. I bought the book. I was like, oh my God, this book is brutal. Oh, it's so thick.
[00:20:32] Matt Stone: It's so big, It is a big book
[00:20:34] and it's got charts and graphs in it. too, you know.
[00:20:37] Kevin Nolan: yeah. But I listened to it and then I listened to it a second time and a few of the concerts actually sunk in and have made a significant difference in my business.
[00:20:48] The hedgehog complex. Um, you know, get the right people on the bus. All that stuff was, it's so common sense. here, the CEO of one of the largest [00:21:00] corporations in America and me are reading the same book. You know, maybe there's not that big a difference between us. Um, and it gave me a lot of confidence.
[00:21:09] I started reading them all. First break all the rules, the emotional intelligence, how to win friends and influence people. The E-Myth, and I could go on and on. I was reading, listening to two books a week, books a year on business and self-help. Self-help. Kevin needed work. He needed work too. Uh, sometimes he had negative thoughts, stuff like that, right?
[00:21:32] Like you talked about before, when someone leaves a company, uh, good riddance, no, not good riddance, good luck. That's what you wanna tell them. And tell yourself. You don't wanna have that as negative thoughts. Good luck is the right answer. so I started to become way better. Way better at running the business, at dealing with people at organizing my time.
[00:21:55] And, um, I actually learned a trick in, um, I [00:22:00] learned it. I don't know where I specifically learned it, but I think it was from the e myths. It's how to develop your primary aim, which is where you decide what it is you really want in life. So you have to decide what it is you really want in life, way down the road so that you can work there.
[00:22:16] If you're dealing with problems that happen Monday through Friday and you're worried about payroll on Friday, you are not dealing with what you really want. even if you were to just spend 30 minutes to an hour on a, any given day and to think about the future past this Friday, you have a whole different perspective on the world that you.
[00:22:40] might even get there. And so I started to develop, um, these things I call, write a letter to yourself in the future. so I started writing these letters that were one page long. So once again, don't have much attention span. 30 minutes to an hour. So here's the exercise. 30 minutes [00:23:00] to an hour, write down what you'd like your life to be like.
[00:23:03] Um, five years from now, date certain, it already happened. You're telling your friend who's you, you're telling your friend. I, I always made up this friend Matt. I pretend it was Matt, not you, Matt, but it could be you.
[00:23:16] Matt Stone: Uh, you know.
[00:23:17] Kevin Nolan: Matt, uh, used to work with me and I was really disappointed He left. Um, he went to Colorado and I always pretended I was writing to Matt and giving him an update about my life.
[00:23:28] five years down the road, it didn't, hadn't even happened yet. I didn't say Dear Matt. I said, dear Kevin, to, not to. I wasn't weird writing fake letters to Matt. But anyway, um, I started getting really good at it. I'd write a five year letter, and in it I would talk about, um, where the business is. It's finally running.
[00:23:48] It's finally doing what I was hoping it would do. It's finally making money. Um, I have money in the bank. Uh, everybody has health insurance, stuff like that. I mean, I lost my health insurance and my fourth kid, [00:24:00] so I didn't, um, my wife's going into the hospital without a, without health insurance, and I get this huge bill.
[00:24:06] It takes me a couple years to pay it off. I mean, I, dude, I felt like I was poverty. I felt terrible. I I never got over that. And I don't want anybody who works for me to ever have to suffer through that. And so these things, you can see, I'm passionate about things. You get passionate about this stuff. that's how you know your entrepreneurial is when you start thinking outside yourself and you start thinking about the future and how you're gonna change it.
[00:24:31] and not just for yourself, but for, for humanity,
[00:24:34] Matt Stone: And
[00:24:34] something you're s not saying explicitly, but all the details point to that I really relate to is. I think one of the differentiators between entrepreneurs and not people who are not, is that a true entrepreneur goes forward in the darkness no matter what. Like you just, you have to choose to believe that there is a solution even when you can't see it.
[00:24:55] And you, you were like, I'm going to DC and let's look back. on this. That was [00:25:00] 17 years. That wasn't like, it was six months. And you, like, that was a lot of years of pain that you endured to the point where you, you were like, I'm done. I'm gonna change.
[00:25:11] Kevin Nolan: back.
[00:25:12] Matt Stone: Right,
[00:25:14] right. But that was your path. I wonder, So what, how did Kevin come out of that 17 year period as you moved to that next stage we, we'll call it the Zig Ziglar line, right?
[00:25:25] From
[00:25:25] pre Zig post Zig. Um, how were you, what changed for you? You said you came back and you had this vision. What was really different? How were you different re in in tangible terms.
[00:25:40] Kevin Nolan: I just started building teams with John and with Steve and Colin and know, the folks that were, that were in my org organization, there was, there was some good people there already. I was really lucky. There was some good people. They hadn't all left yet. I mean, to your point, you know, you sometimes have good people come and go because you can't keep [00:26:00] 'em because you haven't got.
[00:26:02] Anything that's really worth them staying around for or maybe they see a better opportunity or like that. So all of a sudden I started painting a vision. I took that exercise. I talked about writing a letter to yourself, and then I, I took it another step and I started doing a business plan every year.
[00:26:19] So 17 years in business, no business plan. shame on you. I gotta tell you, I talk to lots of businesses that don't have annual business
[00:26:27] Matt Stone: I was gonna say that is way more common than probably
[00:26:30] Kevin Nolan: I know
[00:26:31] Matt Stone: the norm, to be honest with you. Mm-hmm.
[00:26:33] Kevin Nolan: So, by the way, not just a business plan, I'll say to someone, do you have a business plan? And they'll go, yeah, I wrote one once. That's not a business plan.
[00:26:39] A business plan must by nature
[00:26:41] Matt Stone: It's a living, it's a living document, you mean?
[00:26:44] Kevin Nolan: Yeah, current. It has to be the plan. What's the plan? So, um, and you have to update the plan. And so anyway, I I, I, I actually, the first time I did it, I remember 'cause I'm like terrible with administrative [00:27:00] stuff. And so you can't keep saying, I'm terrible at administrative stuff, or I'm not good at financials, or you, you have to bolster your weaknesses.
[00:27:08] Like that's the game. The game is accentuating your strengths and bolster your weaknesses. So you're not good at that. Find someone who is and hire 'em. So my first go round was to hire a consultant to help me write a business plan. And you know, it cost a couple thousand bucks and I usually spent that on a truck or a sprayer, but now I'm gonna spend it on.
[00:27:27] Somebody to give me their ideas and the business planning process. And we built the business plan. Um, and with, with John and with Steve and with Colin and, and the, they became my management team and I had a management team. I suddenly realized that Kevin makes mistakes sometimes, uh, not that often, but it does make 'em, and they're expensive.
[00:27:49] Uh, way better if I start to talk to this management team I'm developing and start asking them before I do things [00:28:00] and what do you think about, you know, it's another version of write, of writing a letter and waiting a day to send it if it's a particularly important thing, you know? So I just took a little more space to make decisions, get other opinions involved sometimes.
[00:28:18] You know, I would say everybody votes and I decide that's the truth. I had to decide. I mean, this is not a democracy. This is a, you know, a benevolent dictatorship. And, um, there's only one person responsible if it fails me, no committee involved here. Um, so accountability really comes from a lot of that, like, one person's responsible.
[00:28:41] They're gonna really, they're gonna take the, and they're not gonna basically make the most popular decision, maybe, but they're gonna make the decision that is the best for the company. So anyway, the business planning process, we turned it into an annual process. Once again, you know, I took somebody from within the organ, within the organization who was [00:29:00] good, who I would say, can you help me build an agenda?
[00:29:03] Can you take minutes? Can you organize the notes that we just took? Stuff that I'm not good at and therefore I run away from. Instead, I would basically get someone to help me do it. Um, and that annual business plan became something people could believe in. So now all of a sudden I'm making proclamations like, you know, it's, it's 2003 and we're doing $3 million in business, is what I say in this, in this vision.
[00:29:32] similar vision to the personal one, but this is an annual business plan now. So it's really for the people in the company to look at and understand and follow. Um, and to this day we do an annual business plan where we project out one and three years out with real financial numbers at our goals, with real action items, at our goals.
[00:29:58] uh, we, we put in [00:30:00] good stuff, like we put in stuff that the whole company wants to achieve and feels good about. You know, whether it's moving to new territory, opening up a new area, or creating new teams. You know, if you create a new team, you create new team leaders and job leaders, and you're buying equipment, and, uh, it means growth and opportunity and people like that, they're gonna stay for something like
[00:30:24] Matt Stone: They see a trajectory where they have an opportunity to grow. If they don't, then it's like they're looking, they're eventually looking
[00:30:31] Kevin Nolan: this is not like super intellect stuff.
[00:30:33] Matt Stone: right.
[00:30:34] Kevin Nolan: is like execution
[00:30:35] Matt Stone: Right.
[00:30:36] Kevin Nolan: of a well-known business practice.
[00:30:38] Matt Stone: Let me ask you something.
[00:30:40] One of the things I help clients do with my business is I help them with their internal authority. So help them become better at communicating internally so that people know, hey, there is A plan. I I'm part of something bigger than myself. it's growing somewhere. How did you handle, I mean, you're talking about your, your annual planning. What have you [00:31:00] found to be the most effective in terms of communicating internally in a way that it lands with people? Because you know, you can think you're doing a great job and find out later that ain't landing the way you think it is.
[00:31:12] What's your experience with that? Yeah.
[00:31:14] Kevin Nolan: like you, we didn't talk about this ahead of time, but it's like you teed me up. So one of my biggest messages to leaders is mission, vision, values, repeat mission, vision, values, repeat. So you need to be the biggest salesperson for the mission, vision, values, everywhere you go, it has to basically just like come outta you.
[00:31:34] Um, by the way, enthusiastically, even if you said it a million times, you can't not pretend like you're not enthusiastic. So you are enthusiastic about this mission, this the vision and the values. And I always thought, I, I, they even like, do they even know what I'm talking about? You know, when I'm talking about gross profit and how we have to, we have to like raise gross profit and lower direct costs and things like [00:32:00] that.
[00:32:00] And then I finally decided, um, so I'm gonna, I'm just gonna get really good at trying to explain it. uh, which means like I bring charts and I, in our building, um, we have a 20 foot wall where all of the KPIs are on the wall by month. and it's, there's about 20 of 'em. So some of them, obviously you really need like five KPIs that are super important, but you know, like how a particular team is doing, a team that's a KPI for us.
[00:32:34] So I don't need to have that in the top of my head, but I need to be able to find it quickly. So I'm not really great at, at Excel spreadsheets and all. So I, I would say to my, which was good because if I'm not good at it and I can understand that, I can usually teach people who are also not good at it.
[00:32:51] Um, but when we go into this conference room, um, the whole company can see all of these KPIs in, and [00:33:00] by the way, including profit, we include profit. As a KPI that people should know about. A company needs to know the profit. Even a small company like people are going, can you be that transparent? I think you have to be.
[00:33:13] I mean, can you imagine, you know, you're the, you're a a major league baseball team and you don't know what the score is. You don't know if you're winning or not. Like how could you play a game? Which business is a game? least I always treated it as a game. Like, play the game. You gotta share what winning and losing looks like.
[00:33:34] And uh, so it means you gotta do a lot of explaining. Um, so how do you know if it's working? Um, so it's going over some people's heads, but they're glad you're talking about it. 'cause it means somebody's talking about it. But some people are, are paying attention and they may even be smarter than me and I just didn't know it, even though they're working for me as a painter.
[00:33:58] And that's exactly what happened to [00:34:00] Steve. Steve is the smartest person that I know. Well, I mean, I've met super smart people, don't get me wrong, but Steve, I know him well and he's my guy. works for me and he's way smart. And I'm, I pick up on this in 2003, I think, and he doesn't have a college degree.
[00:34:23] he's my CFO now. And I'm telling you right now, you could, anybody that meets Steve knows that he's that smart.
[00:34:30] Matt Stone: Okay.
[00:34:31] Kevin Nolan: it wasn't like hard to figure out, but talking about this stuff and then Steve comes back to me and he's got better understanding of it, better ways for me to explain it. Um, and like that this is what it's about.
[00:34:45] This is what Zig was talking about. Zig is like, find the good people, find out how you can help them. So Steve is gonna be a millionaire now. After all these years. So, um, yeah, you need to create people's, help them create their, [00:35:00] their life, their wealth. And there's a lot of smarter people than me. And if I get them on my side, Now I've got, now I've got power.
[00:35:09] Matt Stone: I like how you're framing this. 'cause uh, what's really resonated with me is when you're more transparent, it really is an invitation. Some people are gonna go, okay, thanks for sharing that. You know, I'm gonna go about my thing. Other people are gonna take that. And with that information, they're going to invest, they're going to try harder, they're gonna be inquisitive, and they're gonna reveal themselves to you.
[00:35:29] If you're paying attention and then you find the future stars, they're right there. You don't have to go out necessarily. they were under your nose all the time,
[00:35:38] but they need information
[00:35:39] Kevin Nolan: that I'm weak at.
[00:35:40] Matt Stone: right.
[00:35:41] Kevin Nolan: Which is what? you have to
[00:35:42] Matt Stone: And pressure test it. You know how you know.
[00:35:45] Kevin Nolan: it's money. I mean, I'm decent at money mostly. I'm good at the money that you, stuff you can keep in your head. I'm quick, I'm quick with that kind of math, but you could lose me in a conversation.
[00:35:56] I recently went through a business evaluation [00:36:00] evaluation and, and the person did a, a debrief and I kept saying, okay. I, yeah, okay. I didn't know what he was talking about, so later I was
[00:36:10] Matt Stone: Yeah.
[00:36:10] Kevin Nolan: re, I was supposed to explain it to my whole team. And this is like recent, and by the way, I know as much about financial as most business owners probably.
[00:36:19] Matt Stone: Right.
[00:36:20] Kevin Nolan: I mean, they're definitely wizards, but I was really struggling to, to explain it. So I had to get 'em back on the call again and, and I had to get him, he did the explanation to the whole company
[00:36:32] Matt Stone: Yeah.
[00:36:33] Kevin Nolan: and, um, yeah, it was a little clearer because he slowed it down, thumbed it down a little bit, and it was a little clearer the second time, for sure.
[00:36:42] Matt Stone: You know, I mean,
[00:36:43] Kevin Nolan: my CFO understood it all,
[00:36:45] Matt Stone: it's, it's, well, we, the professions operate in coded bubbles, so to some degree, I mean, I, I mean, I've been through law school, I remember sitting around early in law school and we were all. gleeful at our ability to use, you know, different language now that would [00:37:00] keep us separate from everyone.
[00:37:01] Now I could talk about prima fascia and this and that, you know, recipes, a laur and how special we are. And at the end of the day, there's almost nothing that can't be boiled down to something simple enough that anyone can understand it. There's not that really, you know, so I know what it, it just can feel so isolating, um, to talk to an accountant, for example, and.
[00:37:23] I've gone around and around trying to go, okay, explain that to me. Like I'm three,
[00:37:26] you know, like, don't tell me it isn't explainable to me if I'm three. But, um, listen, it's, so if I can paraphrase back as I'm looking at these stages, the first stage was accepting who you really are. Then struggle, struggle, operate, operate, operate, struggle, struggle, struggle.
[00:37:43] And then come to that point of I am not gonna do this anymore that way. And now you're seeking help. You, you start letting some help in. Talk about your self-awareness journey. Like how self-aware do you think, if you were to rate yourself, how self-aware were [00:38:00] you when you started? And then what were the key self-awareness milestones and how did you build, you talked about eq, I mean, you're, you're a curious person.
[00:38:09] You've obviously done work on self-awareness, but how have you learned to cultivate your own self-awareness?
[00:38:14] Kevin Nolan: Well, I mean, you said at eq, so the, I I didn't even know what the term was necessarily. I mean, obviously you could figure it out, but it's, it's actually a, a term that's used in emotional intelligence. It's one of the five components of emotional intelligence. uh, so I had, uh, teenagers all at once. I had four children in five years.
[00:38:34] So, uh, you know, that meant that we had a lot of diapers and then we had a lot of toddler stuff and then all of a sudden four teenagers and, um, and I was starting to lose it. And, and they were rebellious, I should say, for rebellious teenagers. One in particular, very rebellious, sneaking out at night, all that stuff that, that I did, I deserved it.
[00:38:56] But I, I was struggling with what do you do? I [00:39:00] mean, if you wake up in the middle of the night and, and the, the door's open and your door's gone. You know, you can't just say, oh, well kids will be kids. Like, know, you gotta do something. So obviously we called the police. The police found her and brought her home and I was trying to get her to go to, um, some psychological counseling because she was obviously struggling as an adolescent.
[00:39:23] Um, and I was struggling too. And anyway, she wouldn't go. But I did. I went, I ended up going to her sessions with the adolescent coach and someone said, read the book, emotional Intelligence. And I read the book, emotional Intelligence. I listened to it. You can't read it. It's too hard. I listened to it a couple of times and I became a wizard.
[00:39:44] So not many people were wizards at the time. This is like 19, early, maybe 19 96, 97, same time period. All of a sudden. I understand emotional intelligence, I understand the power of self-awareness, the power to know when you're coming across. Well, when you're not sure you [00:40:00] ask. Like just to realize that.
[00:40:03] Being able to have the presence in a group of people and be the one that people are looking to for answers like that is, it's powerful. It's scary. It's vulnerable, or at least you should be vulnerable because you could make a mistake and you don't want to. So that's all part of self-awareness. And so it was just amazing how the journey with my own family and my own kids turned me, um, into a little bit of an emotional intelligence wizard.
[00:40:31] And it out, you know, you can, you can be smart at lots of things. You could be an amazing musician or a really good artist, or good at math, or good at languages, not good at any of those things. But it turns out I'm pretty good at, at emotional intelligence, learning how to do things like, oh, admitting you're wrong.
[00:40:50] Um, oh, going back to somebody and saying, Hey, you know, when I said that, did I hurt your feelings? Just starting to look at, be a little bit more introspective about your impact and the way you [00:41:00] interact with others. emotional intelligence is, is really, it's in context. It's how you work with others.
[00:41:06] It's how you relate with others. It's the way you use your own emotions carry the point. I mean, like, you interview lots of people. You, you meet people that are more deadpan and you meet people that are enthusiastic. And that's all part of emotional, know, you, you, you bring out emotions in people and in yourself.
[00:41:25] So I became a student of that and have spent years that just added to my, already my internal dialogue about how I could make myself a better person. know, now they talk about being the best version of yourself. It's that, it was, that, that was an early iteration of how to be the best person of yourself, control your own emotions.
[00:41:48] Um, not just control in the sense that when they're bad, but control 'em when they're good
[00:41:53] Matt Stone: Hmm.
[00:41:54] Kevin Nolan: like. Use 'em to say, to go up to people. Um, afterwards, I think I read the book, how to Win [00:42:00] Friends and Influence People. Do you know how powerful that is to go up to people and give them compliments? mean, you do it.
[00:42:05] I see you do it. I've just, in the short interactions in the videos, I've watched them. You're podcast, you're like awesome at it.
[00:42:12] Matt Stone: Oh, thanks.
[00:42:13] Kevin Nolan: what people are craving for that kind of interaction.
[00:42:16] Matt Stone: I always look at it as a mirror, like, 'cause I'm genuinely looking for what you're, for. The greatness in you. It's all, it's in everyone. There's something that's really great about them and when I see it, it's like this diamond, the key is to do it authentically. And I think you, you just scream authenticity, uh, on that.
[00:42:35] And if you really mean it, you know.
[00:42:37] Kevin Nolan: Whenever I try to bea, I
[00:42:39] Matt Stone: It doesn't, it doesn't work very well. Right. It's so awkward. But I'm wondering like, do you remember any kind of milestone blind spots? Like a moment when you realize, oh my God, Kevin, I have been completely blind to something and what you did to does anything because this is where I'm going with it.
[00:42:58] Let me give a, give away the plot. [00:43:00] You can't build a big a, a good business and you've built not a good business. You've built a great business without helping leaders lead, and that requires a lot of communication and feedback loops that are healthy. So I'm imagining you thinking about your own self-awareness and applying that to how you're helping other people learn how to be leaders on those paint crews and leaders in the sales team, et cetera.
[00:43:23] Tell, tell me about your own learning and how you.
[00:43:25] translated that into being a leader of leaders.
[00:43:29] Kevin Nolan: All right, so I got two stories. I'll just tell the one quick one, which was I, I hired somebody, I dunno, maybe it was six, seven years ago. hired somebody from outside. I had this, I was trying to grow painters into managers. So you, 'cause what we do is we hire young people, teach 'em how to paint, and then we try to grow them into leaders.
[00:43:48] And then we try to get 'em into managers. And a manager's a big job in our company, if we call 'em a field manager, you run about 20 people. It's a big paying job. I mean, we, we, well up in six figures, it's a good job. [00:44:00] Um, and so we, didn't see anybody in the field and so I, I uh, I hired someone from outside the company.
[00:44:07] I hired someone who worked in restaurants I thought easier to teach someone how to paint than it is to teach 'em how to manage. I could teach 'em how to paint in a year and a half. I've done this. So I, I hired someone from the outside and he's terrific and he is still with us and he was a terrific hire.
[00:44:23] but I heard grumblings, um, from. I'll call him Wally. Um, so his name doesn't get out there. I heard grumblings from Wally, um, that, um, by the way, Wally's in my book 'cause he also fell, uh, a couple years earlier and broke his back and it triggered a whole huge OSHA issue and all. He's great now. But anyway, so Wally, I hear Wally is upset that I hired from outside the company and frankly, I was upset that Wally was upset.
[00:44:55] I wasn't mad at Wally. Wally was telling people he was mad. of bosses could get [00:45:00] mad. I mean, I don't like when people talk about me behind my back, that's not what I was, was, that was not my emotion. My emotion was, uh, Wally a few years earlier had suffered. This trauma recovered. We love Wally.
[00:45:14] I love Wally. I'm gonna go find out what Wally's beef is. So I jump in the car. I literally, I, I skip a meeting. I'm, I'm so. I'm so throttled by it that I have to, I have to cancel a meeting and go out and see Wally today, now before the day is over because Wally's hurting and, and it's hurting me. So I go out there and I, I talk to Wally and he's like, yeah, well, just think I should have been considered.
[00:45:39] I said, I did consider, and then I turned, then in my mind, I turned to down he said, well, I, I'm not even sure I was interested in the job. I go, well, that's part of the reason why I don't take people that aren't a hundred percent interested. Um, so anyway, I I, I promise that I would consider 'em again if we had another position open, which we will [00:46:00] w heed.
[00:46:00] It is gonna be other positions like this. We're growing. will reach back out to you. And so sure enough, about 18 months later, we're hiring another team. We're gonna put a new manager in place. I still didn't think Wally was ready, but Wally said, I didn't think he was ready. I didn't think he was up to it.
[00:46:20] It wasn't ready. My mind is he may never be ready, right? Like, not everybody's gonna make this job. But anyway, I reached out to Wally and he said, yes, I want the job. I wanna interview for the job. I want it. like, wow, maybe Wally is ready. um, yeah, while he's ready, we opened up a new facility, um, and he's in charge of it and he's one of the most, um, he's the cleanest, most organized manager we have.
[00:46:49] He's extremely productive. He's an amazing teacher. I was wrong about my initial impression of him, or maybe I wasn't. Maybe Wally [00:47:00] had a entrepreneurial seizure or whatever he wants to call it, and started to understand what it was gonna take. Um, but Wally's a success story in my, uh. You know, felt like that was the right thing to do.
[00:47:14] I tell that story because I think when you see drama that is not of your own creating, you need to go to it and go to, with an open mind and an open heart, not with your own agenda. and, uh, so I'm really happy that I did that. I, I just can't, I can't thank my past self enough for having done that.
[00:47:35] Matt Stone: Could have gone a very different way. I mean, if you leave a vacuum there, the whole story starts spinning up in Wally's mind and now Wally's looking for another job.
[00:47:44] Kevin Nolan: Or he is a cancer and he
[00:47:46] Matt Stone: Or, or, or he's gonna take some people out with him, you know, along the way. Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:47:52] Kevin Nolan: I'll just give you one wrap up story, at least around that title, that topic. Um, you know, I, I wrote the book [00:48:00] and in the book I have the final chapter and it's called, you know, it's about me exiting the company. And I'm pretty detailed in the book.
[00:48:07] It was things I'd already written and told people about, but here I am publishing the, you know, the final chapter of my career. And I'm talking about how in, I'm gonna leave in about two years and I need to write the book. I need to rewrite the book. I'm gonna call it The Organizational Muscle Revisited.
[00:48:24] 'cause my favorite book is the E-Myth Revisited. But I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna make it contemporary so that it's evergreen and get rid of some COVID stuff that's in it. But any rate, I laid out the exact plan for me leaving the date, the time, everything about it, how it was gonna go. We're gonna have a party at the end and all.
[00:48:43] And so that was about, uh, two years before it happened. And so I'm, so I finished the book and then I'm still sitting in the company. I'm just sitting there. um, I literally have my role. Um, couple years earlier, I had promoted [00:49:00] John, that great guy who I took with me to that Zig Ziglar contest, uh, uh, presentation.
[00:49:07] And I, I promoted him to president. I I did that, um, couple years earlier. Um, and he's still the president. I'm still the CEO I'm feeling really bad about the fact that I'm hanging onto the title CEO even though I don't the CEO job anymore. I, I'm in the meetings, I'm in the room, I'm zipping it.
[00:49:32] I'm zipping it. I'm only speaking um, I'm spoken to or if I see things that look like they may go off the rails, I would just pipe in. But I am no longer the biggest voice in the room, and I struggled. I, I struggled really. It was tough those last 18 months in particular. You know, the book came out in 23, early 23, and then I am, you know, I'm, I'm basically now hanging around and, [00:50:00] uh, I'm just living that last chapter and I don't really have a role anymore.
[00:50:04] And I felt really, my self-awareness was not feeling good. I, I thought, um, you know, your job is to be quiet, let other people step up, let other people rise up. So I did my job. I did my job, but I wasn't happy. Um, then, um, in September of 2024, I retired. And, um, I'll tell you, it was like rocks taking off, rocks off my shoulders.
[00:50:36] All of a sudden I'm light. I am free. Um, and so I, I'm not involved in anything at the business other than 30,000 feet, uh, really 30,000 feet, like. Um, you know, I'm on a, we have a board, um, and I'm the chairman of the board
[00:50:56] Matt Stone: was gonna say, you're in a chair, you're in a chairman of the board role at this point [00:51:00] is what it sounds like, and
[00:51:01] Kevin Nolan: that, I, I, I'm going to get out sooner. I'm not gonna be one of those people that hang around.
[00:51:06] I, I probably have two to three years left on the board, though I could be on it till, forever if I want, or close to forever, because often the founder and is there for indefinite amount of times, but it's, part of me is just, it's the control, the controllable. So one of the ways that I wear, that I deal with Wary is by saying to myself, do I have control over this?
[00:51:30] I don't have any control. Don't worry about it. you can't control it, don't worry about it. I mean, it's the whole, you know, the whole Viktor Frankl in the Darkness thing. When he's in a concentration camp, what can he control? He can only control his attitude this minute, this moment. Um, so the control of controllables is become part of my internal dialogue.
[00:51:51] Like I said, you know, when I'm flipping the switch from, oh, I'm worrying about something to, or overthinking something, to flip the [00:52:00] switch, you can only really worry about things you can control. Oh, it just flipped the switch.
[00:52:04] Matt Stone: Right.
[00:52:05] Kevin Nolan: I'm not thinking about it anymore. That's part of emotional intelligence, by the way.
[00:52:08] So you go down these rabbit holes thinking about things, then all you need is one good logical thought, just one good. Cut the loop, logical thought, and then you can end it. And so I, I, I, I search for those logical thoughts that ra that reason statement, that thing that makes sense, you know, um, the, the bright side of a situation
[00:52:32] Matt Stone: or the possibility.
[00:52:34] right? Like this. So I love what you're talking, this is so the thing that's so simple and yet so difficult to, to really master because I've struggled with it and I've overcome it, and then I've struggled with it again. And even recently as I've, I've started this new chapter of my own metamorphosis and going into a fuller expression of what I really more true to myself, this business, you know?
[00:52:59] But I, I, the [00:53:00] way I think about it when you're talking is like, the best I can do is I put that thought in a parking lot or in a storage unit. I'm like, okay, I see you're there. Now I'm gonna put you here and I'm gonna focus brain on what I, that's going move needle if on.
[00:53:18] It may not go away completely, but it just becomes such an irrelevant thing. 'cause now I'm in the solution. Uh,
[00:53:23] Kevin Nolan: it was one of the things
[00:53:24] Matt Stone: yeah,
[00:53:25] Kevin Nolan: Carnegie talked about. He wrote a second book called How to Stop Wearing and Start Living and.
[00:53:28] Matt Stone: right.
[00:53:29] Kevin Nolan: where he talked about that and he, he basically talked about putting things in day tight compartments.
[00:53:33] Matt Stone: you go.
[00:53:34] Kevin Nolan: he, it's like putting it in Tupperware and putting it over there so it doesn't smell up the refrigerator.
[00:53:40] Um, you know, you may have to pull it out at one point and deal with it,
[00:53:44] Matt Stone: Yeah.
[00:53:45] Kevin Nolan: don't get deal with it now. Like you, I mean, you can handle the smell of marinara sauce in the afternoon, but maybe in the morning it makes you sick. So, any rate, that's kind of the way I always
[00:53:56] Matt Stone: but leave it too long and it will start. Even the freshness seal. Remember the old [00:54:00] freshness seal on the Tupperware in the middle that you push down? I mean, that's dating ourselves, but
[00:54:04] Kevin Nolan: just take the whole Tupperware and throw the whole
[00:54:05] Matt Stone: sometimes You throw the whole thing out.
[00:54:10] That's brilliant.
[00:54:11] Kevin Nolan: it's really important to put life these images in your own mind with
[00:54:15] Matt Stone: Yeah.
[00:54:17] How you, yeah. Whatever image works for you. Right. In my case, parking lot or a storage unit or a gutter or whatever. Yeah.
[00:54:23] Kevin Nolan: mean, whatever helps you get to sleep at night
[00:54:25] Matt Stone: Right.
[00:54:26] Kevin Nolan: that you don't have that loop.
[00:54:27] Daniel Goldman in the, in the, uh, in emotional intelligence calls it the, the loop, the amygdala hijack loop that just keeps going round and round. You know, you see it with road rage. You
[00:54:39] Matt Stone: Hmm.
[00:54:39] Kevin Nolan: it like with laughter or with, or with, or with grief. Just this like repeated going around and around and around. Um, and if you don't want it, and, and a lot of times you don't want it, you certainly don't want it in road rage, you need to, so my road rage statement is, um, that person must be in a hurry.
[00:54:59] Like [00:55:00] I just say to myself, that person must be in a hurry and the next thing you know, I don't feel compelled to catch up to them and maybe flipping the bird or something,
[00:55:08] Matt Stone: They must really need that space more than I do. Um, which is why they're trying to force their way in. Yeah.
[00:55:14] And I tell you what, driving in this part of the country really reminds you of that regularly. 'cause it's so, there's so many compact areas. Yeah,
[00:55:21] Kevin Nolan: wackos out there, and it's another one is like they have teenageritis and they wanna give it to you. That's one of the things I learned is teenageritis is like a swelling of the brain. It's like they're
[00:55:32] Matt Stone: yeah.
[00:55:33] Yeah.
[00:55:34] Kevin Nolan: give it to you. So road rage person is crazy and they want to make you crazy too,
[00:55:39] Matt Stone: Everybody's projecting. I mean, that's the thing. It's like you're, that is a projection of, and most often it's a reflection of the other person more than it is of you. You're just an object. Listen, we've got a little bit of time left and there's a few things I want to cover, just be before I forget, really.
[00:55:53] Um, or we run out of, literally run out of time. I see all those metals behind you. Now, I know you're a, [00:56:00] every entrepreneur has to have some outlet, some other thing that they do, physical, spiritual, emotional, all the, the, the different strengths that you gotta build. And for you, I know marathoning has played a big role.
[00:56:11] Just talk briefly about what role it's played in your success and your happiness and kind of the, my, I know you've run a marathon in every one of the 50 states, is that right?
[00:56:21] Kevin Nolan: that is true. Yeah.
[00:56:22] Matt Stone: Oh my God.
[00:56:23] Kevin Nolan: a long time and I'm still running. I just did a half marathon this weekend. Um, um, I, I just tell you, it, it brings out a lot of satisfaction in me. I'm not running as fast or as many or as long, and yet I still get that same feeling of. Of, of nervousness beforehand.
[00:56:43] You know, last Saturday, I'm Dr. I'm driving to the, to the, um, it was a marathon and a half marathon. My son was doing the marathon. I'm doing the half marathon. And, and we, we both have butterflies and, you know, we, we both finish and we [00:57:00] both have this particular type of satisfaction um, it's just really hard to get anywhere.
[00:57:05] I'm, I mean, I admit I'm hooked on it. I'm, it's like a drug and I'm, I'm hooked on the dopamines that come from the whole process. And, uh, and more than that, it was a journey for me to travel the country. Um, at the time, I, I was partners with my brother in a consulting business and often I would tie in a consulting trip, um, or a conference with a marathon or two.
[00:57:28] Sometimes I'd run one on a Saturday and one on a Sunday. And adjoining states, um. I, tell a, a story, um, on some of my speeches. So I remember after I finished doing the 50 states, um, I, I, I'm still all doped up from the dopamine I need, I need this kind of injection constantly. So I, I signed up for a Iron Man and actually I, I volunteered at an Iron Man and as terrible as it looked, I signed up anyway, then I, I do [00:58:00] the Iron Man and um, afterwards I'm at a party and I'm talking to some friends and I'm going, and next year I'm gonna do the Iron Man again.
[00:58:10] And I'm taking seven minutes off my time. And so then I, um, in the car on the way home and my wife says to me, I hope you're not serious about that, I have no intention of being married to an Iron Man. I'm kind of fed up with all this stuff, know, and so I'm thinking. Yeah. Happy wife or, um, or misery and pain and, and 15 hours of, uh, and self-absorption and being alone.
[00:58:44] And, um, clearly I, I made the right decision. I've done being an Iron Man, but,
[00:58:50] Matt Stone: You clearly did
[00:58:51] Kevin Nolan: Yeah.
[00:58:52] Matt Stone: my, you know, my friend David Kalinowski would applaud that. He, he was in another episode, he wrote the Sacrifice Paradox. He says, life is about trade-offs [00:59:00] and, you know, your trade off is my relationship with my wife and my family, or getting that hit. And the wisdom that you, Uh, embody in that decision is helpful.
[00:59:09] Kevin Nolan: Yeah. One of the things I do now is I also race direct. So I, I race direct, I'm retired now. I probably direct five races a year, a couple of big ones. Um, it gives me that feeling of being in charge, which I, I seem to crave, um, being collaborative with others and working with a team for an event to raise money and having a cumulative event.
[00:59:30] Um, so yeah, never was a fast runner. Um, my son, by the way, very fast. He came in third in that marathon I was just telling you about. Um, and he ran a 2 49 shout out to him. That's fast.
[00:59:43] Matt Stone: That is fast.
[00:59:45] yeah,
[00:59:45] that I I'm sorry, I can't even get my head wrapped around that. That's fast.
[00:59:50] Kevin Nolan: It's less than six and a half minutes a mile.
[00:59:51] Matt Stone: That's crazy. Yeah.
[00:59:53] Kevin Nolan: Um, but, I'm still really, I'm still, it's been so good to me. Uh, I, I, [01:00:00] I'm part over owner of a running store, two running stores
[01:00:03] Matt Stone: Are you really, oh, like shoes and stuff? What do you, what do you sell in the running store?
[01:00:07] Kevin Nolan: Running shoes.
[01:00:08] Matt Stone: Running shoes. right? Yeah,
[01:00:09] Kevin Nolan: Yeah. Mostly running shoes. Yeah. And all outwear.
[01:00:12] I, um, my company sponsors over 105 ks races a year.
[01:00:18] Matt Stone: Wow.
[01:00:18] Kevin Nolan: I know it's insane. Um, but we get business out of it basically. It's always money for charity and it, it, um, it's a way to give back to the community. Um, sometimes people will say, we're the first family of running in the Philadelphia area. All my kids run.
[01:00:34] My kids are in the business and they are carrying forward the tradition. Um, and so, yeah, don't ask me why, but running became the thing
[01:00:45] Matt Stone: Yeah.
[01:00:46] Kevin Nolan: because it's so accessible. it's so rewarding and so I know people complain about health issues and so, so the first mile or two for me now at age 66, after having run thousands and thousands of miles, [01:01:00] the first mile or two are not fun.
[01:01:02] Probably not too much different than most people's experience if they aren't runners and just try to go out and do miles. But by mile two, I reach a, a different state and mile five or six I start to approach nirvana. So
[01:01:19] Matt Stone: And I guess what I'm, it's like many other things. It's such a good metaphor for business and life, which is that you, you have enough experience to know that this isn't gonna feel good in the beginning, but if I keep going, it's gonna get better.
[01:01:32] And so it's just living that out over and over again.
[01:01:36] Kevin Nolan: thing has been, has
[01:01:37] Matt Stone: Yeah.
[01:01:37] Kevin Nolan: just being able to put up with stuff that it's hard to put up with.
[01:01:43] Matt Stone: Yeah.
[01:01:43] Kevin Nolan: again, entrepreneurs struggle with putting up with stuff that I wanna put up with,
[01:01:47] Matt Stone: Yeah. so
[01:01:48] it's good for the mindset. yeah.
[01:01:50] Alright. I don't wanna throw you under the bus 'cause you're, you know, you're, you've lived in the, uh, in Pennsylvania a long time. Although you're from Long Island originally, right? Or, Yeah. But, so, but you've been in Pennsylvania a long [01:02:00] time. So I'm not gonna ask you about Pennsylvania or Philadelphia's marathon, but outside of that one, what's the best marathon out there that you've been to?
[01:02:07] Just overall experience.
[01:02:09] Kevin Nolan: I mean, the most, the most remarkable marathon would've been, um, Catalina Island, California. I, I, I tell the story about taking the ferry over at four in the morning and I felt like I was arriving at Jurassic Park we got over there and it was just mind blowingly beautiful. It was, you know, it was like 5,000 feet of elevation gain, but.
[01:02:32] I remember just saying Wow. The whole time. Um, that was amazing. And then of course the Boston Marathon is the one that all the, the runners want to do. I did, I've done it four times and, and the first one was probably my high, my highest high of all highs was getting in and doing that. Um, and then, um, yeah, just, just seeing the country and meeting people and, [01:03:00] and, uh, suffering for a short period of time and then feeling so satisfied
[01:03:06] Matt Stone: I've suffered all over the country.
[01:03:09] Yes,
[01:03:10] Kevin Nolan: Some worse than others.
[01:03:11] Matt Stone: Now your book, just so people know, your book is called Organizational Muscle. Um, I confess I haven't, and I, by the way, I Oh good. thank you. for showing it. And we'll put a link in the show notes so people can know where to get it. I, you were kind enough to send me, you. put an a, an offer out, I think it was on LinkedIn or something.
[01:03:30] You said, if anyone I have extra credits and Audible. I was like, yes. And I, I intended, 'cause I knew I was hoping to talk to you and it was one of those situations where I, I started listening to it and I couldn't stop listening. I mean, I, I, I haven't finished it, but, um, man, I, I could, I sincerely recommend this book and I think it's a testament to don't get hung up on in, we're always told the niche and focus on a particular niche industry or whatever, but there are principles in business that just [01:04:00] transcend and you. make it so accessible.
[01:04:02] And I love the audio book. I, It's you.
[01:04:05] I can,
[01:04:06] I felt like I met you before I met you, so, uh, but you've written the book, you wanna revise it and make it a little bit more evergreen.
[01:04:13] Um, what else, uh, what else are you, look now that you're, you said you're 66, still very young and energetic as anyone can see around you.
[01:04:25] Um, what's the next chapter, my friend? What, what are you looking at?
[01:04:28] Kevin Nolan: so, uh, just a, a note of caution to the, to people as they, I mean, a lot of people my age already, but I'm part of the baby boomers, so there's, there's millions of us. Um, we're all getting old at the same time. Um, so, um, I, I try to look less into the future. I do, I try to do, uh, more, more here and now. So I was always, I became a visionary.
[01:04:53] I, I, when in 1997 I wrote that visionary thing. I remember I wasn't a particularly visionary before that. But you can [01:05:00] learn to be a visionary really just by practicing. Yeah. Writing, putting it out there, seeing if it happened, and then holding yourself accountable to whether it did or not getting better at that whole process.
[01:05:11] a visionary. It's self-taught, it's a thing. Um, now I'm trying to turn that notch down a little bit. I don't wanna think about three to five years ahead. wanna think about what gives me joy and satisfaction now. and so, um, so I have a couple of payouts that have been coming from the company and I thought, um, yeah, rather than putting 'em into the s and p 500, uh, which is a, in a precarious place
[01:05:40] Matt Stone: been doing great anyway, so Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:05:43] Kevin Nolan: So I've been, I'm buying real estate, uh, to rent my company. Um, so I just purchased a property. Uh, we, we have a main headquarters. I just purchased another property. We, we rent other satellite offices and I'm looking to [01:06:00] replace them. so very project based, right? Like I, I, I to renovate properties.
[01:06:07] I built my house. I like to do, I like projects. Satisfaction for me is starting and finishing something. Um, so I, for instance, I don't spend as much time writing about the future as I do journaling about today. Like what today is, what I appreciate, what I like, what I wanna do more of, what gives me joy and satisfaction.
[01:06:31] so anyway, that's a, I have other chapters. I have other things I'm into. I have hobbies. Um, become a, a plain air painter. Um, I do talk about it in the book. Uh, I hadn't done it yet though. Um, I, I often talk about things before that I do them, but if I talk about them, I always give it a shot.
[01:06:51] Um, I remember my wife when I finally signed up for an art class like two and a half years ago, she's like, finally, he's finally gonna do it. He is not just gonna talk about [01:07:00] it. Um, but I'm totally into. Into, uh, painting. I, I saw a video. Um, I was coaching these two guys that have a, that have a paint supply business.
[01:07:10] They, they sell like, uh, pallets and, and these things called brood boxes, which you can take out into the environment. And they open up like laptops. They open up and then they stretch out. You can paint, you put a canvas on it, you can paint. And they had a video and it looked very similar to like a Patagonia ad an outdoors person.
[01:07:31] And this guy was hiking to the top of a mountain. He was camping out. Uh, the next morning he got up and painted the sunrise and then he hiked back down to the, to the mount of the mountain. And of course there's music playing and there's a drone video in it. The scenery is spectacular. And I got that vision and that's become a vision.
[01:07:51] That, um, that I'm working towards being able to, to do that. Not to, I mean, I've painted outside before, but to paint, to be what, to [01:08:00] be good enough to do something that, that you feel really good about. Um, so anyway, um, yeah, not necessarily trying to uh, overly ambitious anymore, but really just to focus on the here now and the present.
[01:08:14] 'cause you said I had a lot of time left and I'm real young. Well, I feel young, but the fact is I don't really have a lot of time left. Um, you know, I watched my, my parents age and eventually die. And I, a lot of things that they did, I liked and there's a lot of things that they did that I thought I wanna do differently.
[01:08:34] um, and a lot of it is fitness based because if you don't got your health, you have nothing, you know, so I, um, so I'm totally into fitness and also totally into, um. still very much involved in charitable stuff and volunteerism, and my days are packed.
[01:08:56] Matt Stone: Yeah. you've managed to stay very busy and [01:09:00] it's great.
[01:09:00] Kevin Nolan: who's entrepreneurial, they don't need to worry about that.
[01:09:03] It's not gonna be a problem for them to
[01:09:04] Matt Stone: Yeah.
[01:09:05] Don't worry about it.
[01:09:06] I like to ask, uh, this question frequently. I, I don't wanna say every time 'cause I probably forget, but, you know, talk to that young entrepreneur who's experiencing their big, their first big failure in their own mind, you know, something significant. What's your advice to them?
[01:09:25] Kevin Nolan: I mean, obviously we all know now. They didn't talk about it then, but Zig said it. Zig Ziglar said it. I mean, I became a student to him and all these other people, but he said, um, you know, you know, it's not, nothing wrong with failing. You need to fail and you should fail forward and all that stuff. And you know, Thomas Edison failed, failed, failed, failed, failed, created the light.
[01:09:44] Um, so you have to realize that failure's just a part of it. I don't know that I understood that. Uh, I understand it now, but at the time, you know, you take failure pretty much like a sucker punch and you just lay there feeling sorry for yourself. Um, really wish [01:10:00] I would've become, I mean, I, by the way, another thing I don't like to live in regret.
[01:10:04] You know, I you I wish I had those 17 years back. Not quite the same thing as regret. Um, I really wished I would have, um, became a better student of business and life few years earlier. Um, I mean, not, I always thought being a student was like being a college student
[01:10:24] Matt Stone: Right. Like book learning, traditional book learning. yeah, Learning comes in many different forms, right.
[01:10:29] Kevin Nolan: yeah.
[01:10:29] I mean, it, it turns out, you know, I, I graduated, uh, 2,300 of a class of like 2,600 or something at Villanova. Um, and my wife was third. And Cuma, LATI or Summa or whatever, and everybody thought, boy, you really did it. You married a smarter, you're gonna really be doing well in life. And, um, uh, my wife is a librarian and I'm a successful entrepreneur.
[01:10:55] And, um, and it turns out that that was just one [01:11:00] metric. Right? and I, I think I probably had a chip on my shoulder for a long time about that, a lot longer than I should have. Um, the fact that I wasn't good at school meant that I wasn't good. And I wish that I, yeah, I wish I would've had a different, I wish I could have built some confidence earlier.
[01:11:19] Matt Stone: earlier.
[01:11:20] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[01:11:22] Kevin Nolan: it's what it is. It is what
[01:11:23] Matt Stone: I mean, that's just it And you wouldn't be where you're at today if you hadn't gone through that experience and learned it also. You talk about regret? I, I, I sign on to that regret doesn't help a lot. And I think what you're helping us understand even more clearly is the difference between regret and insight.
[01:11:40] You know, it's, it's, it's reflection that reveals something important and not living in the regret, but appreciating what you've learned. And I know you've helped me learn, and I know that you're gonna help a lot of people learn from watching this and from everything else you're doing. So Kevin, I just wanna thank you so much.
[01:11:59] This has been an [01:12:00] amazing conversation. I hope it's the first of more.
[01:12:02] Kevin Nolan: fun. It sure has been fun. Thanks very much. Um, I look forward to seeing it, but I also will be following you and following your videos 'cause I, you're a tremendous interviewer. I've already seen a few of them and I'm looking forward to who, who else you're gonna interview. So Thank
[01:12:16] Matt Stone: Thank you.
[01:12:17] Kevin. Thanks for your service. Good luck.
[01:12:19] Kevin Nolan: You too. Thank you.