Hi, and welcome to Let's Talk Housing.
I'm your host, Sara Goldvine, from BC Housing.
Today we're going to have an interesting
conversation with guests from BC
and from Ottawa, exploring
the common challenges and innovative
solutions in social housing.
Learning from each other.
Ottawa Community
Housing recently introduced a complex care
housing strategy, which aims to support
tenants emerging from chronic homelessness
as well as those living with mental
health, substance
use, behavioral challenges,
and health issues related to aging.
We've got a lot of the same priorities
here in BC,
so we're going to discuss the strategy
and its reception and really highlight
what we can learn from each other
and where our differences may be.
I'm pleased to be joined today
by co-host Heidi Hartman,
Associate Vice-President of supportive
Housing and Homelessness.
Heidi is well known to many people here
in BC housing and across the sector.
We're joined by guest Brian
Gilligan, Chief Officer, Community
and Tenant Support with Ottawa Community
Housing and by BC
Housing Zone Frank Tick,
Coordinated Access and Assessment manager.
Before we get underway,
I'd like to acknowledge
that we're recording today's podcast
on the unceded territories
of the Musqueam, Squamish
and Tsleil-Waututh nations here
at BC
Housing's home office.
We do our business on the territories
of hundreds of First Nations around
British Columbia, and extend our gratitude
to their peoples, past and present.
Of course, today
we are also joined by a guest from Ottawa
who's traveled from the unceded
territories of the Anishinaabe Algonquin.
And we're really grateful
to be able to draw on that
knowledge as part of our conversation.
For transparency,
We're recording this podcast
in November of 2024,
and our conversations reflect
the priorities and matters of this time.
Brian, Frank, Heidi, thank you so much for for
joining us today for this conversation.
I'd like just to start
by having a bit of a conversation
about what draws you to this work.
Brian, maybe we can start with you.
What what draws you to this work and
and why are you working specifically in
in housing and homelessness?
Housing was almost a bit of an accident
for me
I have spent much of my life
working with street populations.
I've worked
in custody with young offenders.
I've been an outreach worker, harm
reduction worker, working shelters.
I wasn't necessarily looking to work in
housing, but kind of fell in front of me.
And I seem to be a good fit.
I'm quite passionate
about the idea of building community,
and one of the questions
that I came to OCH was,
how do you build community
amongst the most vulnerable tenants?
There was always
a lot of tenant engagement in seniors
communities and family communities.
Maybe, you know,
life past were maybe not as difficult.
Parents want great things for the kids.
They're, you know, they're
they're willing to organize themselves.
But how do you build community
amongst folks who are incredibly isolated
and marginalized
or have kind of suffered through systems?
I mean, the objects of systems and feel
that they have no agency or power.
So I think what originally drew me to
the work was the idea that we could,
you know, how do you build community
in a building full of really, really high
need folks who who haven't had great lives.
And then what keeps me there is
I mean, the tenants are amazing.
I learned so much from them,
they're my teachers.
They keep me humble.
Great senses of humour, amazing
life stories.
And so, yeah, that's why I'm here.
That's fantastic.
I love your focus on people and community.
And what about you, Frank?
I saw you nodding along to some of that.
What draws you to this work?
I think like Brian, it's
some of it's accidental, for sure.
I trained as an occupational therapist,
worked for Vancouver
Coastal Health for over ten years
on a sort of community treatment team.
Did a lot of work in the Downtown Eastside
before I transitioned to BC housing.
So very much
kind of working with that same population.
I always really enjoy
that sort of helping role.
And certainly over the years
we've seen the need for housing and
and sort of wraparound support services.
It just increases right? Work is there.
I find it very rewarding.
But I think, you know, another thing
I'd like to mention
of sort of what keeps me here
is, is also the people that I work with.
So I think I'm very lucky at BC Housing
that we have an incredible team.
We're very
supportive of each other,
and I think day to day that that
because it is hard work to
I think day to day that that goes
a long way into keeping us all
kind of doing what we're doing.
Yeah. Yeah.
Absolutely. Really great folks.
So Brian, people who listen to
this podcast
are probably fairly familiar,
at least a little bit familiar with BC
Housing and maybe a bit less familiar
with what you have happening in Ottawa.
So can you tell us a little bit
about Ottawa Community Housing and,
why you're out here as well
meeting with BC Housing?
Well, the second question first,
I think it's important.
And Heidi and I had
a long conversation about just
what we can all learn from each other.
Our housing environments
are remarkably different
and remarkably similar at the same time.
Who we serve is quite similar,
but the frameworks
and the legislation and regulations
can often be quite different.
So it's curious.
I mean, I've got the great benefit of
just being a two hour
drive away from Montreal,
so quite familiar with Quebec
and how Quebec manages socializing.
Ontario's got a pretty good, well, on
for the Ontario Nonprofit Housing Association
is very good at bringing people together.
But I was out here
and I've been out here before,
and I just thought it was an opportunity.
in terms of Ottawa Community
Housing, about 33,000
tenants in about 16,000 homes.
We're the second largest in Ontario.
I think we're the fourth largest in Canada
in terms of the number of units.
Like all housing providers,
there's a range of tests.
We have 22 seniors only buildings.
We house about 9000 children and youth.
And then lots of adults.
And so, you know, our stock is average
of 50 years old
and getting older.
Recently we've begun to build,
which is interesting,
although what we're building
is referred to as affordable housing,
not deep affordability.
So most of the programs
that we're accessing right now
are about building
kind of what we call the missing middle
then, as opposed to sort of people
who have, you know, core housing need.
Yeah.
So a lot of similarities
there, of course, to the work
that we have underway at BC Housing.
And, Frank,
maybe you can tell us a little bit
about specifically your team here
at BC Housing and,
and the work that you do,
because I do think that it's something
that maybe a lot of folks
wouldn't be familiar with.
Thanks. Yeah.
So we're part of the Lower Mainland
Shelter and Supportive Housing team.
So right now, it's it's really kind of two
main regions, right?
We have the what we call our
Orange Hall office, which is our,
sort of Vancouver Coastal region.
And then we have the Fraser region
team. Right.
So it covers all of the Lower Mainland.
So we are responsible for delivering
on shelter and supportive housing program.
So a lot of what sort of Brian's referred
to, we have a supportive housing sites
that, for BC Housing, I think most people
listening to the podcast
would probably know
with our supportive housing program,
which is different from our Lower Mainland
directly managed program,
where we partner with community nonprofits
to actually deliver on the operations
of all the supportive housing sites.
We don't do it on their own. Right.
So we have these wonderful opportunities
to work with a variety
of service providers
in each of these municipalities to
provide much needed supportive
housing to for folks that are,
I guess, borrowing, you know, Brian's term
with that a core housing need.
Much of our program is, is focused on the
deep subsidy, affordable housing as well.
We have our shelter programs.
Again,
I think what we seen year upon year is,
we're in a bit of a housing crisis
here in BC.
I think that's probably something
we see across the country.
So we are,
unfortunately, seeing the number of people
experiencing homelessness,
continually rising year upon year.
So having those shelter resources is often
a really important sort of first step
to get people into housing.
So we're again, working with nonprofit
partners in the community, to support them
to open and operate, both permanent
shelters and winter shelter programs.
Well, thank you for that.
And, love to hand it over to Heidi a bit
because,
of course, Heidi, you've been overseeing
so much of the expansion of these programs
as, as we scaled to to meet the needs
of the of the people of BC.
And maybe I can hand it to you
and you can dig into some of the specifics
from here.
Thanks, Sara.v
And I just want to say
what a wonderful opportunity this is,
Brian and I had a chance to connect
before the podcast.
And really what comes through and you're
hearing it as well, is his passion.
In fact, he's here on vacation
and spending his time
learning and sharing his knowledge
with BC
Housing. So really appreciate that.
Brian, what we're really curious about
is what led to the adoption
of the Complex Care
Housing Strategy in 2023.
You know, what really came through to me
was the vision of that but
maybe you could share with our listeners
really what led to that.
So if you go back about,
25 years, Ontario
created the Social Housing Reform Act,
which created
provincial and local priorities.
And what's
been happening since then is an increasing
number of new tenancies
every year, coming off lists,
priority lists,
which are indicative of of vulnerabilities
of complex needs.
The challenges is that
and quite jealous
the way that, Frank and Heidi
been talking in terms of,
the ability in BC to coordinate across
areas of housing which Ontario
actually managed quite separately.
So shelters,
transitional, supportive, core need.
These are all quite different in Ontario.
And so, you know, one of things
I saw right away was that
we were housing
large numbers of people who,
who maybe shouldn't
actually be in social housing,
or they required
a much higher level of support.
Or when you really need
to look at the model,
because the model of independent living
and those go back and say,
you know, regulation.
124 of the housing services
access live in Social Housing Ontario.
You have to be able to live
independently with or without supports.
And yet there's no provision for assessing
that and deciding
where is the best place to put people.
So for example, in Ottawa,
we house, a very large percentage
of the waiting list
for supportive housing in social housing.
You know, they may have supports,
but the supports are quite limited
or they may have no supports at all.
And so the real challenge with housing,
people who are
coming out of chronic homelessness,
living with mental health or substance
use issues in an independent
living environment.
And so really kind
of thinking that, you know,
it is creating challenges.
And I think we
that I talked earlier about,
you know, I've been generating data
from the health system and emergency
services internally
for the last couple of years, and just
the cost to the system of our buildings,
which houses a lot of high need
folks, is incredibly high.
So just one thing...
In 2022, I looked at 15 buildings,
which have about 12% of our tenants.
Those buildings have about 3900 tenants.
37% of them visit
an emergency room in 2022,
and of those 37%, 40% of them
went for a mental health,
substance use or behavioral issue
as a primary or secondary diagnosis.
High, high police calls for service.
High, high fire calls for service.
Same with paramedics.
And then you add to that the cost
to the landlord in terms of insurance
costs, hoarding, pest issues,
security calls for
services, elevator maintenance.
They are remarkably more expensive
to operate,
which is indicative of the fact
we're housing people who have a lot
of challenges living independently.
And often those challenges are,
is that they're easily victimized.
And so,
you know, when you operate, a housing,
portfolio of independent living.
But people are very vulnerable.
They're often at risk of being victimized
from people outside the community
but we’re simply not resourced
to provide the kind of supports
and onsite presence that a supportive
housing provider would have, for example.
So yeah, just some real challenges
that that have not
not only recognize when I started OCH,
but I saw were growing year after year.
And it was really so impressive
to hear the data informed approach,
the information you were able to take
to the municipality
and government partners
to really indicate
the need and address that gap.
But again, I was just really impressed
by what we heard
for Ottawa
Housing in terms of sharing data and
and informing gaps using that data.
As I mentioned to you earlier,
I mean, gathering that data has been hard
work and complicated.
And I think really the way forward is,
you know,
we're beginning to have a discussion,
some of our partners,
in order to say, look, let's
all agree that every year
we are going to pull this data,
because once it's written into a program,
you know, you can add as many postal codes
as you want and you can pull it.
But right now is sort of going and asking,
please give it to us.
And then two years later you go back
and that person is gone.
So you have to educate somebody new
and they might give you something
slightly different.
So I think, you know, we really need
to kind of figure out how to get regular
data pulls from emergency services,
the health system,
but also internally,
what data are we collecting so that we can...
one of the things about higher billings
with our communities,
with lots of higher need, folks, is
what is our service model?
I think there's been a tendency
in social housing to sort of look at
every community as being the same
as every other community,
and we have a service model,
which is we kind of spread with
a butter knife,
and we need really to think differently.
And I know, for example, Toronto Community
Housing is going through a process
of trying to categorize their buildings
into three levels.
Okay. That's fascinating.
Once you end up with those three buckets
of different communities,
the next step would be say, okay,
what service level
should we be providing in them?
So, you know, you need to send security
on a regular basis to a community
where there are no security issues.
Some communities are going to have
more wear and tear.
So, you know,
what is the maintenance budget
for this community versus that community.
So I think there's
there's some really interesting things
that can come out of that.
That's wonderful.
And so inspiring for BC Housing
to be able to work through that.
Frank, you've done some amazing
work, in encampments.
Both in the Lower Mainland
and shared your expertise,
on the Island as well.
How do you approach building trust and
rapport with the vulnerable population
we serve there and support?
There's such a variety there.
But I know you've been very generous
and sharing your,
your knowledge and expertise
with our regional teams.
Yeah.
No, I don't think
there's a magic bullet there.
I think it's it's important
for us to sort of recognize, again,
that everybody's stories different.
You know, how they sort of ended up
experiencing homelessness is going to be
very different.
So really for our team,
it really is just putting in the time.
It's it's sort of as simple as that.
But but it is a lot of work,
to just spend time to be with people,
to listen to their stories.
Right.
I know a lot of that is kind of
cliche things, but they’re true right.
We don't want to be judgmental.
We want to be very client centered.
We want to be trauma informed. Right.
But it is actually a really big
and real part of the work.
And, and just recognizing that, folks,
that are living rough outdoors,
you know, there's there's likely
going to be a history of trauma there.
So really, it's it's being there for
folks, being patient, listening to folks.
And, and being really transparent
and accountable
for what we say and what we do.
We don't want to overpromise.
We, we tell folks the way it is,
we try to sort of accommodate
people's needs as much as possible, but
at the same time, be real realistic around
what resources are available.
And again, really appreciate what Brian
said about the experience in Ontario.
Every community is different.
And I think in terms of encampments,
we're going to find that every community
is going to have a different set
of resources. Right.
And we don't want to be setting up
false expectations for folks.
And I think it really is
just kind of taking that time,
to work with the individual clients
that we’re coming across.
It is it is very much a team effort.
Ultimately, we need to have some resources
to offer folks.
And that's where, you know,
our team is working quite closely
with our other teams,
like development services and
and with our supportive housing advisors.
Right.
Because we're using, you know,
whatever tools we have available
to try to accommodate people's needs.
Right. It's not easy.
I don't think we've got sort of the magic
bullet or the right answer yet again,
we're seeing that encampments are becoming
quite common across British Columbia.
But I think that more speaks
to sort of that growing kind of gap
between affordability
and what people incomes are.
It's a bit more complex than that.
But I think that's probably sort of that
sort of umbrella reason of why
people are losing their homes. Right.
I was just going to add a comment.
I found it very interesting
when Brian and I connected,
that Ottawa isn't seeing the encampments,
large encampments,
that we are.
You know, they're very small encampments.
We were talking about...
Is that the weather?
But, you know,
I'm thinking about the work that you do
you and your team do every day, Frank,
and how that's a big part of the work.
But again, it's the regional differences
and the
the fact that one solution
doesn't fit all.
And we’re making
sure is part of our supportive housing
is cultural supports, you know,
Indigenous supports, Elder supports.
Just wondering if that's,
a part of the model in Ottawa.
As you look at the complex care
housing model.
Not yet.
I mean, we are still kind of fleshing out
what it would look like.
Certainly some of the
early operationalization of complex care
housing,
is is looking to our partners
to sort of provide that
cultural competence and support
that we might not, not necessarily have.
So we also look to our partners,
in terms of case management,
whether they should be,
you know, are providing that.
We house an incredibly diverse population,
particularly our family communities.
And so we're always kind of considering
how better we can,
you know, we can support them.
One really interesting journey for us
has been the diversification of our staff.
And certainly in my time at OCH,
it has become an incredibly diverse place
as an employer.
You know, multiple languages on staff.
You know,
as, as varied as our tendencies are,
I think it's also been really important
for us to say things
when we're looking for new employees
that experience
living in social housing is seen
as something of value to us.
So that lived experience of, you know,
whether on our board or our staff
of having grown up at OCH
or any other housing provider,
it really provides, a lens that, you know,
someone like myself wouldn't have.
So that's one way
we're kind of we're looking at that.
Boy, again, very inspirational.
And, it just speaks to how we can do
our work very effectively,
but in different ways.
Heidi, can you just to help
set the context for a conversation,
can you help explain a little bit
about what we're talking about
when we use the term complex care?
What does that mean for for houses anyway?
Well, it's definitely a program
that we've been looking forward to
for some time.
I will highlight,
that it looks very different.
We really do honor what
what the needs are in the community.
Complex care housing is really the
step above supportive housing
to be able to ensure
that people whose needs aren't being met
in supportive
housing can, get their needs met.
It may be the cultural supports
they need, home and community care,
complex care, housing, there
there is a range of supports
that may be in the building
and it may be clinicians,
it may be mental health and addictions
workers.
Doctors may visit this site.
But really, again, it's
about the community, our regional health
authorities identifying
with BC Housing, what are the needs?
Who are the people that aren't
having their support needs met
and ensuring
those enhanced health services are there.
Those that are above, the,
the meal program,
the tenant support workers that are there,
24/7, those on site care,
they're additional.
So it's really important to highlight that
complex care housing isn't transitional.
It can be somebody's forever home.
So they need those supports,
for the rest of their life.
They're welcome to stay there, but
the workers are going to work with them
and make sure that their needs are met.
What we're hearing
is that our health authority partners
may reduce the support
needs, just based on what is happening
in the
those folks lives at that particular time.
So again,
just really excited about complex care
for the fact that we know those enhanced
health services are important
for preservation
of housing and continuity of housing,
but better support people to be the best
they can be.
Frank, when you think about the work
that you do in in community
to help connect people
with with housing services
that meet their needs, how does complex
care housing play into that?
What types of clients do
you find are best supported?
Are you finding that it's an important
tool to have in your toolbox?
When you're out there speaking with folks
and helping connect them with services?
Yeah,
I think complex care has been great.
It's something we've had
feedback on for many, many years.
With our supportive housing, again,
our standards,
sort of staffing model for a supportive
housing site is staff on site 24/7.
But usually 2 or 3 staff on site.
And these are a nonprofit to staff,
so they're not clinical staff.
And the nonprofits do a fantastic job
around
sort of those non-clinical supports.
I think complex care has been great
coming in to, to really address that gap.
So now when folks are living
in supportive housing,
if they do have care needs
that are a little bit beyond,
what the nonprofit can provide,
because maybe they need wound care,
maybe they need medication management,
whatever the case might be.
We have now
this, complex care team in partnership
with the local health authorities
who can kind of provide those.
And like Heidi says, you know,
keep people successfully housed.
Right?
So we're not losing people
through that gap.
It really is
I think a really important part
of that housing continuum.
Because now we have folks that are in
supportive housing who in the past
may have lost their housing
because of this lack of,
these complex care, clinical supports,
but now they're able to stay there.
And again, over time,
if it's a physical health issue,
they're getting the support they need.
They may not need that forever.
And then that that resource
could be freed up for someone else.
So it's been it's
been really, really good.
We always need more tools
and options for people, especially
as we look at, housing-first model
and having a complete housing system.
You know, just as,
a success story
and of course, we won't mention any names.
So about last year or so, prior to complex
care rolling out in the Lower Mainland,
we would often have applicants,
that we're working with in the community
who would, be very difficult
to, to remain housed.
And we I can think of several individuals
who have been repeatedly housed
and have lost housing.
Since complex care has been available,
and they've been able to sort of
get support from that program.
They've been able to remain housed.
So it's that's that's been a real,
I think, real world
example of how this has been really
helpful for some folks.
Yeah, that's all the difference, right?
Yeah.
For people to be able to maintain
that housing is so crucial.
Brian, you're heading back.
This is your vacation time
you're spending at talking about housing.
That says something.
But you're going to be heading back
to Ottawa soon.
What's the one thing that you're
what's the top thing
that you're going to bring back with you
in terms of what you've learned
from your time here in BC?
So I'm gonna back up a little bit.
It's just interesting
how we we're both using
complex care to get to the same place.
But it's the fit in a very different part.
So for you, complex care
is something beyond supportive housing.
In Ontario, supportive
housing is the ultimate
in terms of wraparound 24/7 supports.
For us, complex
care is to fill the gap between
independent social housing living and,
supportive housing, in large part
because we are housing
lots of people
who are eligible for supportive housing,
but are on waitlist or are not ready or not
able or not eligible, but
need something more than the independent
living model that that we're funded for.
So for us, it's
almost like it's a it's a place between 24/7
supports and what we have right now
and trying to figure out exactly what.
And of course, that can mean
many different things.
In terms of going back to Ontario,
I mean, I think one of the things
is really interesting
listening to you
is that you have oversight
of a range of options
in housing that we do not.
We are simply, core need housing.
And we have a new growing, affordable
housing.
So, you know, mid-market,
people paying 70% of market
rent as opposed to 30% of income.
But we are not really moving
into the area of more support and complex
cares about trying to solve that.
And whether we do it or we're just looking
for different relationships with partners,
whether we're building new or we're
converting existing buildings into more
of a supportive model or structured model.
These are all things that, you know,
that we're looking at. You know,
very exciting thing
we're working on right now...
We're looking at turning over
a portion of one of our rooming houses,
to a treatment facility.
Why would you do that?
Well, the tenants already live there,
so it's not like
we're inviting in a whole new population.
These are people who do live with us
but don't have access to treatment.
And the goal is,
as opposed to taking that person
in need of treatment directly
from the streets
and putting them in independent living.
If they could run through a program
and come out the other side
much more capable of being successful
in their
housing and sustainable in their housing,
these are the sorts of relationships
and the types of layers
and steps that we want to create.
Because I think, you know,
we have these we've got this type of,
you know, we've got supportive housing,
that transitional we got,
social housing.
But people's housing need changes
over their lives, and we want to move
everyone towards higher and higher levels
of independence, of agency.
And by having different options
and whether it's
you're in a different building
or we're just able to move or,
you know, add
or do supports in the same building,
you know, for me, complex care housing
is anything that takes someone
who has challenges living independently,
and that could be
someone coming from the street,
but it could also be a senior,
who is
getting close to, you know, not being able
live independently and just helping them
live with dignity and independence
just a little bit longer.
It's a win for that tenant,
but it's also a win for the health system.
It's a win for emergency services.
It's a win for us.
So anything that kind of helps
that person live
just a little bit longer, a little more
independently, a little more with dignity.
To be successful.
So, you know, to me, falls
inside the bucket of complex care housing.
I think it's so interesting
that that our jargon is different,
but we're all kind of trying
to do the same thing. Right?
So the province recently rolled out,
what we called the supported rent
supplement program,
which which sounds a lot like what
what Ontario was calling complex care.
So this is a again, a partnership
with, our local health authorities as well
as, Ministry of Social Development
and poverty reduction.
So for
I don't know what you call them in Ontario,
basically the welfare office, right.
Ministry of community social services.
Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Yeah.
So the supportive rent supplement
program is really our piece of that
that continuum, right.
That, that you're referring to as,
as complex care in Ontario
sounds very similar.
Well, that's interesting,
and probably this speaks to your role
as provincial agency
and your connections to other ministries.
I mean, we are a local housing
corporation.
We are a wholly owned corporation,
nonprofit housing corporation
of the city of Ottawa,
that came to Ottawa through
downloading of, of housing services
back in the late 90s.
Probably the work that we're doing right
now is an attempt to be more operational,
although at the same time
we're also talking,
you know, we're advocating
at a provincial municipal level that,
you know, we're trying to fix something.
But this is not just Ottawa's problem
alone.
Any large housing provider in Ontario,
in Canada has the same issues.
And although there are things
that we can be innovative about,
there are some things
that province can play a role in changing.
I've known for a long time
because I was out here a while ago,
visiting some, some local housing
organizations in Vancouver
that you have quite a close relationship
with the health system.
And we have great health partners.
But I think the fact in BC,
there seems to be a direction
from on high that,
that housing and health work together.
That's something that we're, we're
trying to work on at a local level.
But having that provincial blessing
probably is, is helpful.
And the Belonging in BC program
really speaks to that
integration and coordination
that's foundational for complex care.
Frank, You'll find it interesting...
There's no assessments for housing.
So we talked about our coordinated
access system in the that
and just some of the differences there
that we see here.
And probably a lot more silos
between the housing
because we talked about the SRSP
rent supplementS and how they're
at the coordinated access table
so we can create that positive flow.
So learnings from each other.
I’m coming back out to look at to take a good
look at your coordinate access.
Oh, it's been such
a, such a great conversation.
I mean, Brian, I think sometimes
in BC, we have a tendency to
really take for
granted some parts of our system here.
What would
you leave our BC listeners
with in terms of your perspective
on what you've seen here?
And, what you what you think
others could be learning from?
I think there's just some real
core components of coordination
that exist here
that have existed here for a while,
and I realize they haven't always been
funded the way,
that you may have wanted them to or,
you know,
they change with governments.
But, you know, I for a long time,
I've known of the relationship
in Vancouver, particularly between BC
Housing and the health system.
So that's something that's really,
you know, that that's something valuable.
And something, you know,
that we're trying to develop and probably
could learn from you about that.
I also recognize going back to back
to you, our provincial organization,
there's kind of more opportunities
at a provincial level to
help nurture those types of relationships.
Yeah, that's absolutely true.
Thank you so much for making time to
to come come out here, Brian, and
thank you so much, Frank, for joining us.
And Heidi for for helping host
today's session.
Let's talk again soon.
To learn more about BC Housing,
including how to apply for
subsidized housing in British
Columbia, visit BChousing.org.
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