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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
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Mishu Hilmy (00:01.23)
Welcome to Mischief and Mastery where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life and that steady and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work,
what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold, risky moves. So, if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe a little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com. Hey everyone, it's Mishu and welcome to Mischief and Mastery. Today we talk with Donald Connolly. Don is an award-winning director and producer whose documentaries have been distributed
by Netflix, PBS, and Max, including Dallas in 2019, a socio-political series for Independent Lens. As a director, his short, Doc, Matriarch, screened widely in the US and Canada, while his dramatic short, About Time, premiered at the 60th Chicago International Film Festival. He's currently directing a feature documentary on the 1970 Syracuse 8 boycott and its impact on college football.
In this episode, we get into it. talk about creativity, empathy, and the power of nonviolent communication, how it shapes not just personal relationships, but also the way we tell stories. We get into the struggle of setting boundaries as artists, the difficulties of saying no to reading scripts, you know, balancing the creative life, integrity, and collaboration. I'll add more in the show notes, and you can follow Don at Meekly on Instagram and social media and whatnot. So here it is, me and Don chatting.
Hope you enjoy.
Donald Conley (01:53.038)
Empathy was in there, it's sort of empathetic conversations, which is interesting because I had gone through a nonviolent communication course. And so yeah, so that pretty much read. So yeah, I'm open, man. I let you lead the way.
I, in 2009, I read Marshall Rosenberg's Nonviolent Communication and that's changed like the trajectory of how I interpret, perceive and interact with the world and has done, you know, wonders for just self care and connecting with others. So like, was, what was the nonviolent course you took through, took, took like, what was the context of that and what was your takeaway from it?
So it was a course led by Orin J who I believe also probably you said you read Marsha's book. I believe Orin is a pupil of Marsha's. This particular course was nonviolent communication, but the theme of it was say what you mean, mean what you say. really wasn't looking.
For this topic, in fact, I knew nothing about it, but a good friend of mine, who's a producer out of New York, she introduced it to me because she had like a discount code and it was like a wild discount. It was like, take this course for like, I don't know, like $2 or something. I was like, okay, cool. And at the time I was, I think I was in a relationship and was, was kind of having some, some struggles and issues and the.
course scene like came at the right time. I was like, let me see what this is all about.
Mishu Hilmy (03:33.806)
From Marshall Rosenberg's book, it's observation, feelings, needs, requests. Was it that prescriptive in this conversation or was it more of an introduction to nonviolence? I guess I'm approaching it somewhat fundamentally with like the tools are what do you observe? How do you feel when you see the observation and what needs are met versus not met and what requests? So I'm curious, like what extent of curriculum or language or approaches or tools did you extract or learn from that?
Yeah. Yeah. You know, uh, yeah, a lot of that, I mean, I think it was like, I think it was like a 10 week course or something like that. Right. And, um, and, that was definitely, uh, the, fundamental equation because the point of it was trying to get to a place where you're, you're able to, well, you're able to one on one in, um, make the requests that you need and.
the requests that are healthy for you and also healthy for the individual that you might be interacting with. And some of that too is, you know, the idea that we're not always in, always in a moment of, of having the ability to be receptive, right? We're not, we're not always at that place every second of the day. And so sometimes things come through the pipeline and
I know me personally, I'm such like a, I'm such like a acts of service type of person. I feel like that's probably my number one love language and how I communicate. So, you know, I just be open to any and, and, everyone, you know, who needed my time, and who needed my energy because I just, I had a problem with telling people, no.
And so that was one part of it of in order to be able to communicate clearly and empathetically, you want to be in a space where you can receive as well as give. And so sometimes you might have to say, I need that. I need the time. can't, I can't process it right now. Give me some time to revisit and then I'll be able to process, I'll be able to approach it and process it in a, a, a bit more, a bit more smoothly, a bit more.
Donald Conley (05:55.234)
bit more healthily. And I know that that was, you know, I would struggle with that. I would struggle with, with processing and not be trying to engage right away whenever someone needed me to engage. it's like, you know, mental, like, like mental overload sometimes. And then the other side is communicating without blame. And so that was, that was definitely like a big course. And it was important, especially as, you know, in the moment where I was in a relationship, you know, how do you.
talk through issues with placing the blame on the other person. That means, you know, how do you, how do you be open to, to accept the other person's perspective, even if you don't agree, how, how do you become, how do get to a place where you're open to accept that that is that person's perspective? And so there, yeah, so yeah, absolutely. Like needs boundaries was definitely a big one, right. And being firm on those boundaries.
Right. that boundaries are empathetic. It's not a mode to close off, to shut down. In fact, it's it's healthy engagement. So yeah, a lot of that, a lot of that, but certainly like that, principles that you laid out.
you sort of become or one becomes aware of their patterns, right? I think I relate to that. You know, I think the euphemism is like people pleasing and all that. know, the need for choice and the need for space are fundamental human needs. So if you find that your default or your pattern or your relationship pattern is like, someone just like kind of unloading on you or you're like, making too many requests, you're like, yeah, I'll pick you up. You live an hour way. Sure. I'll pick you up. No problem. And then we'll go dinner and I'll pay for it. So it's like,
the need to choose. Like, I don't want to keep making that choice and the need for space of if someone's asking you too much, like, hold on. I don't understand what you're asking. Just give me give me an hour. Give me five minutes or let me just walk to a room because you know, when it comes to say like filmmaking, we meet people at networking events and people are all different levels of excitable. And I got this idea we would
Mishu Hilmy (08:05.262)
be great collaborators. And when you're talking to me face to face, I'm like, sure, that sounds cool. But I've learned over time to go just send me an email. And most people don't send an email or when they do, I can look at it and go, not not my thing. Like, I don't want to collaborate with you. But that's how I learned the hard way of like, oh, yeah, I, I need space. had the comfort issues of saying I just I think I take a lot of time to like make decisions. Yeah. So it's like becoming aware in that choice. And on the other side is like not
placing blame, right? think part of the non-bond principle is, know, everyone's needs are equal. Everyone has equal, your need for space is equally valid as this person's need for clarity or understanding, right? So like, this person wants the answer to a question, their desire for clarity, that need is valuable. And at the same time, your need for space to provide a clear answer is also equally important. And no one's responsible for anyone's emotions or just
stimulus to your perception, right? Like you're not like no one's blame worthy and that takes a lot of time and years or even practice to just go, wait a minute, she or he didn't do anything to be at fault. They did something that when I received it did not align with my values, right? Like, you're speaking in a tone that I don't like this tone. You could say you're being a jerk and blame them for, they're just an asshole. Or you can go, all right, the way that person spoke in that moment did not meet my need for respect or integrity.
Okay, what do I do? What choice do I make? Do I say maybe in their close friend or a partner, let's have like a two minute or 20 minute conversation of like why it's important to like not yell at each other or speak with kindness and what kind of requests can come from it. Or it's like, person's a stranger, probably not going to see them. I'm not about to like square off and be like, yo, my need for respect wasn't met. Can you eat it? So I think again, like it's an important valuable toolkit to really analyze and
receive the world and I found it like the best for me at least the best way to really be present, empathetic and harmonious with others and myself.
Donald Conley (10:08.164)
absolutely. mean, you know, speaking on, like you said, that lame piece, it, I mean, it, takes, it does take so much time. mean, it, it, this is not even in a 10 week course, you know, it's takes years for people to get to that point because it's, know, you're like, you're rewiring your brain in a way where you're trying to communicate. It's, it's like that one, like we all, think many people.
feel a certain way when they feel like they're being blamed for something. many people probably feel attacked. but it's so hard to process like, well, I know something happened and you were the cause of that thing happening and therefore, you know, like logically you are to blame, you are to be blamed. and it really is hard to get out of that. I found that maybe for me, what
tends to work is kind of putting myself in place of the quote unquote lame sentence. Right. And so it's, you know, operating in a sense where I'm like, okay, I heard this. this is what the observation is the observation. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then that, that individual can say, well, no, no, that's not, that's not what I was saying. I'm actually saying this.
It's like, okay, all right, cool. Now let's, you know, let's, let's work on that. Yeah. That's filmmaking part. Talk about the trauma. I have, I have like a couple of people in my inboxes right now talking about a script. Hulk, you know, can read my script. I'm like, what? You know, we haven't said hello in years. Yep. Yeah. That one, like the script thing is that one's probably one of the, I think most, so many filmmakers are afraid to get that request. Cause sometimes you can feel like, you feel like a jerk.
You know, you feel like an asshole by saying, no, I don't want to, I don't want to read your script. It can be translated as, this person doesn't want to help me. It takes so much energy from us because we're artists. bring our service into that. can't half step read a script. And also like I've come to the point where like I'm, I'm, I'm brave enough to put down a book if a book is not working for me.
Donald Conley (12:31.438)
I'm not going read it. It's not working. I'm not going to force myself. And so, you know, I think that, but in terms of the script, it's someone's baby. It's someone, and that person has made a request and you've accepted the challenge. And so it is difficult to be that bold in that respect. so you just like, you know, you kind of just trudging through the mud there if it is that type of experience. So I, now starting.
to tell people, get through another draft right now. I don't have the bandwidth, but get through another draft, send that to me and possibly down the line. And we'll see if that happens. know, a lot of people, a lot of people never get to that next draft.
Right. Yeah. And that's on them, you know, and I think it's I think it's a good practice to like have pre-baked, you know, it takes like anything things practice to go like, all right, I'm going to a networking event to brace like to brace myself, like, how do I get out of it or whatever sort of phrasing? But also, again, like we're not responsible and it's not how someone interprets our. It's like a request is a request and that's it, like you can say no. And if they're like, oh, well, Don's such a jerk. He's Mr. You know, showbiz Hollywood can't.
can't look at the script then, but that's out of your control. But that's like the fear, right? The people pleasing fear is, I have one more person who thinks I'm a jerk rather than in that moment when you said, no, you're meeting, you're saying yes to your needs. I'm like, I need space or I'm just focusing on family or I'm focusing on this. You know, you're in the middle of production and some, someone just sends an email and they're like, it's like, can't, I just can't deal with this right now.
I can't, you know, I often find like we all have our peers and we're constantly talking about story. And I find that I'm more open to that process. more open to it. If I engage with you, if we've had a conversation and I've saw the passion that you have for your story, that right there, that behooves me to open up some time. One, I'm respecting our relationship, but also I've already been, I've already been engaged. And so now I don't think people understand.
Donald Conley (14:36.77)
how hard it is when you get that message and especially from it's out the blue, know, especially when it's out the blue. And you're just like, I, like my schedule is set. I've been doing it, not to be inflexible about it.
speaking in nonviolent terms, like that need for integrity, right? You are, you're no longer meeting your need for integrity. If you are sort of dismantling the space you've created for yourself, the routines or whatnot to just please someone else. It's like, it's that balance of like, all right, if someone sent me a three page script, maybe, maybe I can read it like about maybe five or eight years ago, I don't write notes. Like I like, if someone sends me something, I tell them like, Hey,
It'll be a 15 minute phone call or I'll send you a voice memo, but I'm not about to write it because it would take me like two hours to write my script notes or whatever in a way that's polite and considerate and kindhearted. So now I just I'll do it over a voice memo and say, hey, this is what I thought. This is what I can improve. But even then, it's that thing of like, do we have a relationship? Am I at a period of like my life where I can read someone's feature or something else versus like the cold email or like someone you just met who
wants to extract something from you or seems like they want to extract something from you. It's at least getting easier, better to like, oh, cool. All right. Yeah. I maybe I'll give him an email address or maybe I won't. just say, give me your card and I'll follow up.
I miss the days of cards where you can do that. Now it's like, you know, IG, right? DM, easy, easy access. No, I, but you know what? The, the, phone calls, I find that to be oftentimes I find that to be more helpful than a written notes, know, on both ends, actually it works. It works for me. Cause I agree with you, you know, you start to write the notes and before, you know, at like two, three hours have passed and
Mishu Hilmy (16:06.574)
The DM, yeah.
Donald Conley (16:27.81)
You're still writing this thing. Sometimes you take a break. You had to come back to your email. It's there. can be, it can be a lot. just, I just sent notes to, to, to a friend and colleague earlier this morning. And, know, when I, when I feel like, maybe it's helpful, like I understand this individual and it's helpful for this individual to have something to go back to. And especially if like, depending on what that individual also has going on. But the phone call, it's just.
It's relaxing. It's, and then it's helpful for you too. Cause like, they might have other questions or ideas and that you're talking about ideas and now it's like activating, you know, those.
It's like less than monologue, you know, a five paragraph that could also be overwhelming. And also it's like, yeah, you could clarify or they can say, actually that choice was on purpose and this is why, and they can make a case for it. And you know, okay, all right. don't, I still don't think it's the best choice or, knowing that, you know, in your revised draft, you're going to build this out in such a way. Then we got go for do whatever.
Yeah. Are you still making your two to three minutes short? So you still on on that kick or?
Not so much lately, just because I had been focusing on experimenting with this conversation series. Earlier in the year, was doing every day would do like two to three, once a day would write a two to four page script. I wrote probably about like 60 of them. And earlier, maybe last month or month and a half ago, I was doing more social media type series. Yeah, I think I definitely want to put it back on the map. One of my hangups was like,
Mishu Hilmy (18:03.022)
I'm going to, I'm going to work on DaVinci and learn how to do DaVinci. So I did a couple of our courses on YouTube and got the DaVinci handbook because part of me was thinking I can at least shoot and play around with the static and tone and, you know, grading. Uh, but I think it created like an arbitrary, uh, inhibitor to go, well, I haven't finished my, you know, 400 page DaVinci approved workbook. I'm on like page 50, so I'm not going to do this project. So that's, that's where I'm at. It's, on the radar, but.
2025 I'm trying to like narrow down. What are the two or three creative things like this? Yeah, I already wrote like two two feature or three feature spec scripts and did a little adapted short film Screenplay, so I hit I would say like 80 % of my creative creative goals, but still it's like that that's 20 % like oh man, I just I got a little bit too too thirsty or too hungry
80 % is good, man. You've kicked major booty in 2000. 24 and really good.
you take this like nonviolent course was this like recently or just a couple years ago I'm just curious like how it how has that sort of language or that way of potentially seeing the world impacted your approach to writing crafting story what is a story if you can't blame the antagonist
You know, that is, that's an excellent question. So I took the course in 2022. Yeah, I think it was like, it probably was like spring, early spring or kind of like in the summer, in the winter type of thing. And in terms of story, you know, I, that's, that's a really good question because I'm not sure if I've connected the dots on those.
Donald Conley (19:46.862)
Because I've you know, I've always tried to understand antagonistic forces in films. And, but you know what, I think maybe subconsciously, because as of late, I began to look at this call for conflict in films. I began to look at that as just tension, right? I've started to use conflict less and less.
And I'm using tension more, because I think, I mean, it's such a conflict is such a triggering word. Cause oftentimes I think when you get that note for me, it sounds like the individual on the other side is saying, I'm not entertained enough. know, this needs to happen. That needs to happen. There needs to be some trauma in there. what's going on. And I, you know, I,
I went to NYU and we, they, had us watching independent European films, a lot. And then they had those classes, right? Like I took, I took, Italian cinema and, I took my, not the production course, but there was a sort of like a directing seminar that I had taken with a professor named Nick Tannis who loved.
really loves independent cinema as most NYU professors do. But like those long drags, man. And you learn off of Kurosawa, Fellini. These are the creators that you learn from at NYU. And there's this beautiful film by...
I could be getting it, getting a director mixed up, but I believe it was Ozu who made this film about this elderly man who's, who's dying and he's just experiencing life through a new lens and it's just life. Right. But the tension is an eternal one for him because he now understands all of this beauty. doesn't have that.
Donald Conley (22:05.922)
much time to really process it and to really enjoy it. And he had spent so much of his life not enjoying it. And so you just like, you know, if you're not tapped into sort of the pain of what these, the pain, the pain of like minutia, you're sitting there and you're probably.
Right.
You you probably like, or to death, know, you scratching your eyes out like nothing's happening, but so much is happening. Life is happening. so for me, it's like, all right. I have to redefine what this idea of conflict is because I'm not going to always have an A B relationship in a film. It's not going always be some protagonists and some antagonists in there dueling it out like a comic book film. Right.
So he said, yeah, so now, and maybe that's come from these courses of nonviolent communication where I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to view whatever the block is between me and another person. I'm not trying to view that as conflict because I'm not trying to bring aggression into that. And so it's, it's just like.
We, we're at a point, we're at a point of tension and we just need to release a little bit. So let's find a solution for us to untangle this moment a little bit, just so we can breathe. You know, breathe a bit easier. I think that's maybe that's the, the, the.
Mishu Hilmy (23:42.414)
Yeah, I think it's so interesting. And I honestly, it's grateful that you also have been exploring it because I think I've been like journaling maybe the past few months also about that. And I've confronted like, because I've practiced nonviolent communication since 2009. And how do I approach whatever sort of ethics and integrity when it comes to, you know, storytelling and story structure. And I think a lot about when it's writing, when it comes time to writing a character, I can
understand or imagine the unmet needs that are occurring, right? So it's like, whether it's protagonists or antagonists, they're trying to do flawed strategies to meet needs. And that's where, you know, tension can occur. But I was distinctly writing about in a tension versus conflict, because I just finished reading De-centered playwriting, which is like an academic text more on playwriting, but how to avoid Aristotelian or
classic Western structure, got your three acts and like the variety of storytelling we can do. And yes, some people are going to be like bored out of their minds, but a story isn't always like, what is it? Pathosphere catharsis, like classic Aristotle, like these are the three core, you know, drivers of story. They can be, a story can just be something that elevates or evokes or deepens an emotional experience or an understanding of an emotional experience. And same goes with like tension, right? So yeah, I think.
There's a price for any approach we take to telling a story. Like it's the risk of it being experimental or non-narrative or so boring it's slice of life. But I do think it's the question that when it comes to at least story structure and empathy, like, well, there's a bad guy and it's not my job. Like for me, I don't ever want to write something where I'm like judging any of the characters. I just think you're going to get like moralistic or simplistic stories. If it's like, that yeah, that they're the antagonists. They're the bad, their decisions are bad.
versus if you do have a deeper tool belt and vocabulary for what motivates behavior at the need level versus the strategy level, I think you can probably create a much more flourishing world. Like when it came to, is it about time you're, you're new is short. So like, what was the level of mindfulness when it came to say conflict versus tension with that one? Was that an explicit execution or exploration when it came to the writing and directing?
Donald Conley (26:04.974)
You know, with these characters, um, and I guess I'll say it on it, you know, I'll say that the plot of the story is this appropriate, uh, for a podcast. But yeah, so, you know, about time is about two former lovers who meet coincidentally one night and consent to, uh, exploring a night of fun and rekindling and what they eventually are seeking or on a path to seeking is their, their own perception of.
And they each have like their, their distinct desires. And so one, just them being former lovers, um, I'm already writing from a place of tension. You feel that in the first scene where, I mean, one, it, opens really fiery. You know, I don't want to fully spell it out, but you know, it opens hot and spicy. And then they get to their destination and...
It's quiet. It's definitely quiet. It's awkward. the question, you know, question that's asked is a question about, it's a safety question. It's, it's where, what have you been doing with your body as of late? Right. Because they're both looking to engage in something physical for different reasons. and so we, you know,
So I knew like they couldn't just be, it couldn't just be automatically comfortable with each other, but there had to be a familiar comfortability of, of, know, these two people, they know each other, they know each other up and down. but they haven't known each other in this past year that they've been apart. And so what, in that gap, what has filled the lines in terms of what
the other has been doing in terms of how this person views me and is it different from how they viewed me in the past. And so these are tense waters that they're navigating. so coming back from, you know, like, if I feel like if I had started with like, I'm looking for conflict, you know, I would have been like, maybe there would have been some sort of like debate in that first scene or whatever. Like you kind of tempted whenever you're going for conflict, kind of.
Donald Conley (28:23.746)
tempted to go in a certain direction. so that's, that's why I like, that's why I love tension. Because tension is so visual. Cause you think about all of these things that like a coil is tense. Tightened strings are tense. it's all these visual things that you can apply to the writing and in the sense of if it's a coil, then how was this thing on a spiral? You know, if it's a really tight rope, how do we stay on that rope and walk it, you know, sort of.
it step by step. So I think that's how like, you know, I take it mentally, you know, from that sort of philosophical theme and apply it to the page. Whatever like that, whatever the word is visually giving me for this particular story or for this particular scene, then I can write to like that inanimate object.
and in sort of an internal way with the pacing of the scene. So by the time they get to like this conversation that needs to be had, it's almost like jazz, you know, how they get there and then how they navigate around the things that are being said and the things that aren't being said. Yeah, that's how, that's how, that's why I like that word. It's just such a visual word, you know? It's not so heady. I think conflict is very heavy and it just leads you in one direction.
It's sort of abstract and the risk is a manufacturing sort of typal or archetypal conflict structures, right? It's like, oh, well, they got to manufacture an obstacle. It got to manufacture some external or some force that makes them go, you know, blow up at each other rather than, um, I think there's maybe a little bit more flexibility and trust of, of the audience. Like, yeah, hopefully they'll be engaged in this tension versus some.
arbitrary circumstance that this scene has just, you know, dropped in the middle of like, we got to make this about X. And that's like, there's nothing inherently wrong with it or problematic of that approach. And that's a completely fine approach. I just think because it's so potentially heady or conceptual, you're, you're, reaching outwards. You're like, how do I instigate a conflict rather than get into the body or the context of the characters and go, all right, when I, if I were in this person's shoes, what
Mishu Hilmy (30:47.404)
Would it feel like if I were to cross the room to get water? Like what's the subtext of the action? What's the subtext of this, the moment and how can I visually make it, know, sweaty or awkward or clumsy? And that would hopefully be like tense or engaging.
That's very, very performer language. You know, it's like, you can come up with those, you can come up with those sort of visual guidelines and performers just, performers love that. mean, you know, and then I'm not like speaking for them, but I'm speaking as one. I studied theater, got my masters in it. And, you know, for me, I just, love like those visual guidelines that applies to like this coat that I'm putting on and I'm.
I'm fitting my body into, cause I never, even when I'm working with actors, like I never wanted, I'm about collaboration. So I never wanted to come in and say, all right, you're angry. Yeah. Be angry at this person, you know? And then I tried the, you know, you get those, you read the directing act, the actors books and guidelines from various peoples and you know, you get to action words, right? It's like, all right. Yeah.
you know, yeah, the late this person or punish this person. and sometimes I think that that does work. in terms, mean, you're thinking about character, if you connect into life, you know, what is this character want in the moment and what needs to happen? So sure. But I think sometimes directors can get trapped in that and you start writing those words for each block of dialogue, you know, and because you're, you're visually you're visualizing.
yourself on set with the actor. You're like, yeah, when we get to this moment, I wrote it in the script. I'm going to say, do that, you know, do that, do that. It's all action words because actors love action words. I, what, how you process that, I thought that that was such beautiful poetry in a way to, in a way to explore, explore through that, which is me. That, that is, I did a bit of that.
Donald Conley (33:00.27)
on, on set, because I just wanted to see it in different ways. And I, I wish that I was able to do a little more of it. But it was one of those, one of those productions. We were going to shoot it one weekend. We had to push it back and we recast and we, just didn't have a lot of time to do a lot of explorations with it. but that, that's a beautiful, I mean, but that is the kind of the world that we're.
we're in with film anyway, you know, I don't really get a lot of time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Did you work with an ATB-C coordinator for this project? Was that your first time using one or working with one? How is that processed?
I did. Yeah, I did.
It was my first time. you know, a bit of it was, a bit of it was, comforting. and then a bit of it was frustrating. because, you know, and, we, we, we, we are at a time where like everybody is hyper focused on safety. And I think that that's absolutely fantastic. But you know, like what you have in, what you have in your mind, sometimes you can't want.
Donald Conley (34:11.63)
to explore and obviously intimacy coordinators cost, right? And so the days that an intimacy coordinator wasn't there, really couldn't explore in that way. And so it's like, okay, well, you know, now mentally as a director, I'm like trying to shy away from anything intimate because I don't have this, this rep, this representative there. And, and, you know, sometimes with filmmaking, you know, when, when you're working with one hand behind your back, you can
You can come out with some, with some beautiful, beautiful creative moments because you tried to explore like, do I navigate this issue here? But yeah, I mean, it's, it was interesting because there is someone who has agency in the director's chair right next to you. now I think they're positive, like the positive to that is like, we get into this scene, you take it, do whatever you need.
stunt, right? It's like locked out like a stunt, you know, like a stunt coordinator, a stunt designer, like they you can, there's a degree of potential efficiency where like, all right, we're in the scene, we know what the sort of sight lines are, the boundaries are, and no one's gonna get injured on this.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You just step back. You're like, one watching the magic as well. Um, but you know, on, on, on the flip side, I think, um, some of the, what, what frustrated me a little bit was, um, when there were elements of like, there were elements of, of discomfort from certain performers, but obviously we all have our different forms of comfort. And so those conversations took.
up so much capital in real estate because they became, now it became, became therapy for a lot of it. And it was a lot of, quite a few meetings of going through that. And it's like, need to start blocking out these shots. Like I can't think about this anymore.
Mishu Hilmy (36:13.966)
Ideally, we have tight schedules, so it's like maybe learning lesson of how do we have those initial conversations, maybe if it's over Zoom to get that initial language set up versus it sounds like it was maybe day of shooting, you're on set, you got 10 hours, you got eight hours, you got however many hours, and all of a sudden, 42 minutes are, we're getting into conversations about intimacy and trauma in body. So I don't know what the context was, but it just seems like.
So
Mishu Hilmy (36:42.35)
If there is a lesson to be had, like how can we, you know, navigate that, you know? Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. So it is like, then it's just like the amount of time.
It was before-
Donald Conley (36:50.08)
Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think what initially, what initially happened was, sort of on the performers part and, and, and through no fault of on, on her own, it's, sort of one, it's the, you get excited about an idea. and, then you agree because you want to do it and she wanted to do the film. and so you, explore, you explore and you start having more conversations about.
the actions and those conversations become realer and then bring the intimacy coordinator in. And you really like working with an intimacy coordinator, you're going from every single part of the body, asking about green and reds, right? I mean, down from the top to the toe. And so I think when that, going through that process.
that becomes realer because now you're starting to think about your own body. And who knows in terms of a creative sense, knows when I didn't know, you know, when the last time someone was touched here versus there, whatever, you know, only that person knows that. And I think going through that, the conversations just became bigger and bigger and bigger. and we were trying to find a solution.
that felt comfortable and safe for the performer while also being in line with the spirit of the story. And so at a certain point they became, they became at odds and we eventually had to have to recast.
Right on.
Mishu Hilmy (38:24.366)
Right. Right. Yeah. And I mean, it's better, honestly, it's like a headache and frustration. But my takeaway is like, it's better to not put someone in that uncomfortable position because now you're on set, money's burning and all of a sudden they're like, they, they, they just shut down. They're like, I can't, I can't do this scene. And now you just shot, you know, X number of scenes and they couldn't do it. So I think my takeaway is like, there's a pro, a big pro in having a conversation, but the pain of it is like the time, the cost of time and energy and like,
Maybe even enthusiasm. I was hoping this was going to be like a breezy 39 second moment of a 10 page script. But now that we're really exploring it, the person's initial enthusiasm with a process is going, wait a minute. The more I think about it, the more it doesn't align with my integrity or my vision as an artist. I think it's better long term to be like, all right, let's not have you in this project because you're going to step away feeling probably very uncomfortable and disappointed that you went against your own sort of artistic
principles or integrity.
Absolutely. And, and, and, know, and that, and that goes to like that, that not by the communication we were talking about, saying what you mean, mean what you say. and going through with, with, with empathy, because I did, I did empathize with, with, her position, because it is, you know, I, felt like it was a good project and it came at a time where, it came during the actor's strike. And so it's a time where not much is happening.
get an opportunity to play, you know, and play with what I believe, were a group of great people. so I totally empathize because like, that's a desire, but then on the flip side, there is a comfort level that you have to listen to. And I was very proud of, of, of her. really was obvious. was frustrated, you know, had to cancel the shoot, but I was absolutely proud of her.
Donald Conley (40:23.0)
for being honest and being honest at the right time. Like you said, it totally saved us because the individual who we cast it again, know, who we cast for, Mackenzie Chen, very, very deeply vulnerable performer. not to say my other actress wasn't, but it was just a different energy in terms of the intimacy. was, and I'll get credit. I'll give a lot of credit to.
my first actress, because through all of those conversations, we pared down the intimacy. And it still was uncomfortable. and so we had to move on, but she made the project better. And now we got to Mackenzie and Mackenzie can look at that and be like, I get to play in like all of the things that are unsaid or all of the things that are, that are not done, but they're like bubbly.
They're bubbling beneath the words bubbling beneath the page and Mackenzie had a lot of fun with that. she, she crafted the person, the individual that she wanted to craft in this individual from my eyes, when they were dating, when the two characters were dating, I'm sure this individual loved sex with this man. That was the character that Mackenzie walked in, walked onto set with. and so you, she's.
felt all of that. And again, it's a film you look at it. It's like there's not, we did film more of an intimate scene, but there isn't much, there isn't much in the film. but there's, you know, there's an undercurrent. and so we, I needed to go through that process in order to have that undercurrent there.
yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. like when I think about that book, you know, decentered playwriting or just in theory of like decentered creating, you know, there's such a, maybe a fixation, at least in the movie making filmmaking around authorship or auteur theory. And one of the prices of decentering, you know, storytelling or vision making is like you, you create this community or collaborative driven process where folks do have.
Mishu Hilmy (42:30.69)
you know, other agency or expression. And it's not just Don being like, this is how I want to shoot the scene. And if, know, you got to do it this way. But one of the prices of that is uncomfortable, challenging conversations around what, who tells what story. And if this actor performance, like, I don't know, like the more we explore, like, I don't feel comfortable being the person to tell the story versus someone who's like, all right, we decentered it. We did some explorations and revisions and we got this new person entering and they're benefiting from the
the humbling effort of like, okay, how do I change the text or how do I change my visual approach that might dial X back, but there's still depth. still other things that are being dialed up by its absence. And I think it is humbling to de-center the process, but it's a different, it's just a different form of storytelling. the challenge is like, things just take a little bit more time. I'm trying to navigate my relationship with authorship and what is the feature screenplay look like that's, you know,
written with a group or community or the leads versus something that's just mostly from my mind.
That's interesting. Well, I guess, you know, I think that that often happens with, now I'm blanking out on the, on, on this very standard form of the process, but the table read, you know, I think, I think that's the, that's the moment when, when it really happens for us. I'm assuming you're talking, you're talking about what almost like a group of people coming together and ideating from the start and building from there.
Like, and that's the thing of like, there's, you know, a thousand, if not infinite creative ways of creating stories. And in our sort of Western culture, it's like, no, it needs to be one author. needs to be a three act structure. There needs to be a good guy, a bad guy, and the captain of the ship. And to navigate like, all right, in my creative process, how do I enter? How do I play with?
Mishu Hilmy (44:30.114)
changing or shifting and I don't have to, I don't, could choose not to, or I could choose to, but the challenge of do I start a project? What, does a project look like? You know, I've devised theater works that was all from improvisation. So I'm like, I'm familiar with it, but I remember it being like a hassle because it's like, all right, we have, you know, 200 improvised scenes and 10 % of them have nuggets that can be extrapolated from, but that's, that's where my head's at around the various stages of any creative endeavor. What, what level of collaboration or thought
am I approaching of around all?
You know, I think that's, that's interesting. Cause I mean, it sounds a lot like TV and sometimes I wonder, know, mentally what inspires an up and coming writer to decide, you know, I'm this type of writer versus that type of writer. know, I mean, writing features is such a lonely thing and you know, it's, it's, it's lonely up until the point where you invite people in and it's up to you on the number of times you invite people with. And it's,
At a certain point, and especially years ago, where it was like really two different worlds, you know, at a certain point, you kind of look at yourself and you're like, I want to be with a group of people every day and I want to collaborate, throw things against the wall with these groups, with these people. Or I just, I want to be at my desk by myself with my notes taped to the wall in front of me. And, and I want to go through and craft the world that's.
75 to 120 pages or more. I, I not dug into like what, what, what encourages an individual either way. and maybe it's a thing about, you know, what spoke to you as a kid, were you watching television more or were you watching films more, you know, as a kid, I would have done unfortunate, unfortunate experience of consuming it all.
Donald Conley (46:32.182)
So, so I had it, didn't, I just went in the way of story really. And, learning in New York, know, New York wasn't a television town when I was coming up, when I was in school. and so it was the movies, movies was, was, where was that for me? but I love collaboration, you know, and, I would love to be.
in a writer's room, but it's such a different hustle to get there. It's such a different grind. And you and I, have like, you know, we're trying to direct movies, to write movies and then think about, how do I even get into a writer's room? And now you have all of these different paths that you're trying to navigate and they're all so very hard to get to where you want to be. Yeah, that's it. It's fast. It really is fascinating.
You know everything has its economic model as well right so you know I wouldn't say screenwriting is lonely I would say it lends itself more to solitary work than say devising and developing a television series which is more common to have say like a writers room but even the economic models of if you were to go to the route of feature films there's more of a an economic model that can work off of entrepreneur entrepreneurship
Rather than say the economic model of television is it requires heavy subsidies, right? Yeah. Uh, either from a distributor that wants to put in the capital or advertisers who can subsidize the ongoing nature of it, right? Like HBO is great because they'll subsidize maybe two seasons of limited series through their distribution model. Or if you're on network broadcast TV, it's great. You got your eight seasons, but it's only exists because the broadcasters are shifting.
the way you tell your story to appease and capture attention. But the thing is, I don't think they're mutually exclusive, right? You can, like, I just, you just don't see it that much, but a non, a decentered filmmaking process. I think I saw Glam Hag's movie, she directed, or they directed it a couple of years ago, but it seemed fairly decentered where, you you have non-professional actors and sex workers telling this story.
Mishu Hilmy (48:45.614)
But it's like how do you want to approach, how would you approach a feature script as if it were a TV show? What would a feature script look like if you had five of your trusted, sharp friends and colleagues drafting and ideating and dividing authorship that way? I don't think it's as common because any sort of decentered process takes more time while you can control it more if you are the author.
It would be an interesting experiment. know, if 2025 is like, yeah, if I have a goal of like that, right. To write. I would like to ideate a concept and write a script. What would it look like with five people?
Nah, I mean, it's, think that that's fascinating. You know, I think it's just like, it's, up in the ante, right? Because most people you start with two, you know, I think, I think, you know, I don't want to, I don't know the numbers out there, but I'd imagine a healthy number of, of screenwriters, feature screenwriters at some point in the process took on a partner and worked on an idea together at the most three, you know, I've seen that often enough.
where three people are ideating in there, you see all three names on the script. And so I guess it just kind of grows from there, depending on the community. You know, I think about, for me, you know, it's like, I've seen, I've seen that to a lesser extent, but the other models that have also become intriguing, like, let you speak of, you know, people from the community, whatever story, whatever community the story lies within.
those people coming in with their own experiences and kind of a craft in the scenes, whether it be improv or, whether it be input in a room, those are fascinating experiments. seems like, no mad land to a certain extent had a lot of that. And then on another end, it's like the parody model of, of sing sing, you know, it's,
Mishu Hilmy (50:49.41)
the economic system.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Like, you know, it's, it's, it's sort of not, it's not creatively decentralized fully, but, but the economic model is, and now that they released this model and attached it to a film that is successful in its own right, that has, has recognizable talent at the center of it. think many people can understand, or many people are about to understand that this is a very viable model.
for making their films where everyone can feel like they're participating in it from the beginning and from the end, right? Through distribution. You know, everyone gets to participate in the model. and I think that that helps in terms of connecting people to this project. Cause you know, I feel like most people want their films to win whatever films they're working on, whether you're like, whether you're in a crew or you're craftsperson or whether you're above the line.
You know, I think most people want a success story with, the work that they're doing. so if you connect them to the model, mean, you know, that's just growing the passion at that rate. Cause now you're like, man, I have investment in it. I think investment grows.
I think it's a very interesting equity model and I would behoove and hope most indie and even future mainstream models go that route. If I were to make a feature, a great way to sort of mitigate upfront capital would be to lower potentially fees for participation in equity pools so everyone has an interest in it. So I definitely agree. think, yeah, we're a little bit out of hours. So just to close things off,
Mishu Hilmy (52:34.649)
What's 2025 looking for you? What are you excited about? What are you focusing on? What's on your mind?
I am currently directing a feature documentary, is, like it's documentary is not new space for me, but being in the seat of a feature doc is new, but it's working with amazing people and the participants in it are an incredible group of passionate men. And they have been so generous to me and the other filmmakers and they just want their story told. that's always, you know, and they're down, they're down to like.
play and have fun with how we want to play. Cause it's not, we're not fully traditional with it, even though it's a historical documentary. So I'm excited to, we began production on it this year, but we'll, we'll continue and hopefully wrap up production next year. So I'm excited to really get into the weeds of that. Bow time is fresh in terms of this festival journey. So I'm excited to see where it lands next year. I want to do some traveling with it, man. I want to have some fun and.
And, know, I want to, I want to finish like two features like you, know, you're my idol. It'll be nice to be on the set of one of them, but more, more so than that, it'd be nice to gain traction. Like I want to, I want one of them to feel like they, they will be realized. And I think that that's really exciting and hopefully find a romantic partner to just share this journey with next time. Next year I'm turning 40, man. Like it's crazy. I feel absolutely in.
Insane and unattractive like how 39 sexy and single what is this?
Mishu Hilmy (54:14.958)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks. Yeah, thanks for sharing. I hear that. hear that. Yeah, Don, it's been it's been a delight chatting and yeah, I forward to seeing you at the next film event.
Same same I appreciate
Mishu Hilmy (54:34.446)
Before setting you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed this show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little...
Okay, here's another prompt. I don't know if you like these. Send an email if you do, send an email if you don't, but we are still giving it a shot. Little things. And this is inspired by our conversation around empathy and being a people pleaser. So for the next 24 hours, practice the principle of say what you mean, mean what you say. So before responding to a request, pause for a couple seconds and ask yourself, are you saying yes out of obligation or is this a choice you truly want to make if it's an obligation?
Reframe your response with clarity, courage, and self-respect. And if that's too hard in the moment, create a little sentence you can tell others that you need some time. If someone's bumping into you at a bar and they want you to read their script, tell them, hey, email it to me and I'll take a look. Or they want you to be on a project and say, just give me a moment and email me that stuff. Don't tell them to email the script, but say, hey, can you just send me an email of what you're thinking and how I can help?
I don't know, those are just some thoughts to avoid being nice and dead and always saying yes. So yeah, next 24 hours, take a beat. Find ways to really think about what you're saying yes to and also check out Marshall Rosenberg's Nonviolent Communication to learn more. A big fan of trying to meet needs creatively instead of being nice and dead and living out of defaults or obligations. So that's that. Hope you enjoy and I'll see you next time.