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Join the Youthworks Ministry Support Team as they discuss how to have an effective youth and children’s ministry in every church in conversation with local ministry workers as well as national and international voices.
Get in touch - effectiveministrypodcast@youthworks.net
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: so I haven't
had to become a Swifty to minister to
the Swifty, I've just had to genuinely
care for this person in a way that
they can see that things are going on.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: A
key part of that is is trust.
Right?
And I think that that's that
was part of the second stage.
The relationship is all
about building trust.
But it seems to me that the
incarnational model kind of building
this premise that trust can only
exist between people who are the same.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: Yes.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: like people.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: Yep.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517:
but I want to disagree.
I want to disagree with that entirely.
I mean, I think trust can be much
more robust when people are different.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Yeah.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: and so,
and that's why the relationships,
the relational side of it that you're
talking about, Tim, is so, so crucial
because , That's where the trust develops,
Welcome back to the
Effective Ministry podcast.
My name is Al James and I'm
a youth ministry advisor
with YouthWorks in Sydney.
And last week we had a fascinating
presentation critiquing the
incarnational model of youth ministry.
And it was presented to us
by Tim Goff from the UK.
He's the director of the Llandudno
Youth for Christ in Wales.
He's a youth ministry academic
and a practitioner, and he's the
host of the blog, youthworkhacks.
com.
Week Matt Bartlett, my fellow youth
ministry advisor at YouthWorks and Tim
Beilhart's children's minister at Soul
Revival Church in the Shire and lecturer
at YouthWorks College joins me in Join
me as we process some of the interesting
things that Tim Goff was saying about that
incarnational model of youth ministry.
We ask questions, we offer more
critiques, and we share some of
our highlights of last week's.
episode and the presentation
that that came from.
But before we get into it, I want to
share two pieces of exciting news.
And the first one is that
we're having a giveaway!
We are thrilled to announce, in
partnership with YouthWorks Media, , the
release coming up of Tim Bilharz's book,
The Child in God's Church, Faith Formative
Relationships that Grow Disciples
who Know, Love and Obey King Jesus.
And that's going to be coming out in late
January, published by YouthWorks Media.
And here is how you can
win in this giveaway.
The way you win is that you send us any
question that you have about youth or
children's ministry and you email that
to effectiveministrypodcastatyouthworks.
net And we're going to select one of
the people that emails us a question
to receive a free copy of Tim's yet to
be published, soon to be released book.
And we'll let everyone who enters know
how they went with an email in mid
January, just ahead of the book's release.
we're also going to answer as many of
your questions as we possibly can in
a special Q& A episode coming your way
in sometime around April or May 2025.
That's the first piece of news.
The second piece of news is this, That
starting on January 1 and over January
and February, we're going to be re
releasing some of the most popular
episodes of the podcast that we've had,
and some of those that are from the vault,
So we're going to be re
releasing one of those a week.
before we kick off the podcast for 2025.
So we're looking forward to that.
That's all the announcements.
I hope you enjoy the round table with
Matt Bartlett, Tim Bilharts, and me as we
chat about Incarnational Youth Ministry.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: We are talking
about the incarnational model of youth
ministry today, and I've got to confess
that when I think of the incarnational
model of youth ministry, my first
thought, , is hanging out at skate
parks, trying to build relationships
with the kids there, maybe eventually
winning the right to speak about Jesus.
And I can think of, you know,
friends that have done that.
They've, they've spent, they
were skaters themselves.
They spent time at the skate park just,
, in order to be able to, you know, develop
relationships, win the right to be heard,
and then hopefully be able to speak
Jesus into the lives of these people.
Is that accurate though?
When we're thinking about , the
incarnational model of youth
ministry, is, is that what it is?
Give us a bit of a definition.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: I'm
with you, Al, my default thought
is, yeah, the old guy picking up
his skateboard and pretending to
be hip down at the skate park,
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: And in,
in my, in my memory, they were
wearing, they were definitely
wearing keppas at that time as well.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517:
either that or Cargo Pants.
Um, uh, but, but it's probably
too shallow a, of an opinion
of what this is actually about.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Tim, do you
want to just flesh out what you think of
when we're, when we're talking about the
incarnational model of youth ministry
and give us a bit of a definition.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: Yeah,
well, reflecting on what Tim Goff
has written up in his article and
presented it on last time's podcast,
there's these three Ps, the Ps of
presence, proximity, and proclamation.
And so the presence is we actually
go to the place of the adolescence,
and this is partly a historic
reaction against the adolescence.
Uh, sort of, you know, if they, if
we build it they will come kind of
models of ministry where if we do
something really great in the church,
teenagers will of course flock to us.
Uh, and so part of it is a critique
of that model and saying, no, we
actually want to go to the places,
we want to missionally connect with
where the teenagers are, uh, because
many of them are not in church.
And so where are they?
Where can we actually go and
have gospel influence on them?
so that's really key, that
um, marker of the model.
The, probably the second P, the
proximity, this is going to be the one
that sort of distinguishes incarnational
models of ministry from other models
that have a lot of commonalities,
but maybe not expressed the same way.
So proximity is all about this
building of a trusted relationship.
So it is that idea of earning
or winning the right thing.
And this is, you're building a
relationship, uh, and the model
assumes that until we have built that
relationship, until we have enough
commonality with the teenagers in
their world, we've gone to their
world, now we build intentionality
and relationality in their world, Only
then do we start a proclamation, and
I think one of the distinctives of
an incarnational model says that that
second piece is essential and also might
take time, so you might have to build
up your, you know, your skateboarding
tricks or your cultural language or
your ability to immerse yourself in
that culture, and, uh, only then do
you actually proclaim a proclamation.
And part of it is coming out
of this missiological thinking.
So, you know, coming across, you
know, if I go to Japan, if I go to
China, if I go to sub Saharan Africa,
I've got to understand the culture.
I've got to immerse myself in that
culture as a, you know, an Anglo, white
Anglo male walking into that culture.
There are things that I don't
understand, assumptions that I
might make that will stuff up.
Uh, there are barriers
that might be in place.
And so the incarnational model says,
no, no, you want to try and smooth
out all of those barriers first.
before you get to the gospel proclamation.
, al_1_12-17-2024_132520: he talks
about the idea of the minimal
amount of cultural friction.
That was a phrase that came out
last week in, in, in the audio.
And I mean, I've, I think
I've got a question and I'll
put this to both of you guys.
Like, um, you know, this, this kind
of proposition that in terms of world
mission, um, people will become like,
The culture they're trying to reach.
So your husband tailors, they go, they
dress in kind of, um, or, uh, you know,
uh, Eastern, um, clothes and they've got
the ponytail like they did in that culture
in China when he was, um, over there.
Um, and you know, they become
like them to some degree in
order to reach these people.
And this is something that Tim Goff
said last week was, could we become
like young people to some degree
in order to reach young people?
This is sort of emerging from
this incarnational model.
I want to know, what do you guys think?
Is there a difference between
crossing the cultural barrier
and crossing the age barrier?
Is that what incarnational
ministry is asking us to do?
Is it, is it actually asking us
to cross the age barrier there?
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: I think it's
really interesting that this approach
to youth ministry starts in the
1950s and Tim outlined the history of
Incarnational Ministry and the three
different waves that it's been through.
it's also in the 1950s that you start
to get the invention of adolescence.
Uh, this is where you start for the
first time in this baby boomer generation
post World War II start to conceive
of adolescence as a separate culture.
They have distinctives that are
different to the world of their parents.
And so I don't think that's accidental.
I think that there, there's a connection
there between saying, well, missiology,
when we go, uh, across continents, and
we do mission in a different culture,
now if we conceive of adolescence as
a
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: as a culture.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: then it
makes sense that we would apply
missiological thinking to adolescence.
Now, we should, I think there's
appropriate conversation around that.
But yeah, Matt, what do you reckon?
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: I was just
thinking about, uh, you know, the
relationship between age and culture.
So, I mean, obviously there
are youth cultures, right?
There's various subcultures that
young people are inclined to gravitate
towards and they, the different
categories of, of, of young person.
But I think to conflate that with age
and crossing an age barrier is probably,
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: It's, it's
not quite what the incarnational
model is actually asking people to do.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517:
yeah, that's right.
And so I think age isn't a culture, right?
It's, it's, it's just a,
it's a, it's a reality.
Every single person, regardless
of whatever culture they happen to
be a part of is a particular age
at a particular moment in time.
And you can't really, can't really
transcend that or step around that.
I am a 40 year old man right
now, you know, a bunch of years
ago, I was a 16 year old boy.
In a few years time, God willing, you
know, I'll be a, uh, a 60 year old or
al_1_12-17-2024_132520:
Mate, you'll be as old as me.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: Yeah, almost.
One day I might get there,
Al, if I keep on, yeah,
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: You'll
never be the same age as me.
Um, but
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: But I'll be,
I'll be catching you up, catching you
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: yeah, yeah,
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: um,
yeah, I think, yeah, it's probably
not, it's probably not accurate to
think of an age group as a culture
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: yeah,
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: such.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: yeah, yeah, yeah,
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: we think
about a subculture regardless
of the question of age, then it
probably fits the category, but
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: yeah,
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: in
itself, if that makes sense.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520:
yeah, yeah, totally.
I think that, I think that's right.
That's a help, really
helpful clarification.
Um, like on, I guess on the same, in
the same kind of realm, Like, is there
an incarnational, and I'll throw it to
you for this one, Tim, because you're in
the children's ministry world more than
the youth ministry world, but is there
an incarnational model of children's
ministry and like, , would we say, could
we become like children to some degree
in order to reach children in the way
that maybe the incarnational model kind
of leans on that idea in reaching youth?
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: I think
part of it, um, my question around
the incarnational model is this idea
of winning the right to be heard.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Mm hmm.
Yeah,
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: winning?
What, what is that right?
And it,
al_1_12-17-2024_132520:
does the winning constitute?
Like, what is part of that?
How do you do that winning?
Yeah,
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: uh, incarnational
model of youth ministry makes is
assuming that the winning the right to
be heard means becoming like, because
they've taken this idea of incarnation
of the, the divine incarnation to
humanity, that Jesus has become human.
Um, and we can talk about the, the
incorrect conflation ideas that Tim
Goff really helpfully brought up.
It draws out as there as well,
but we've drawn into that.
Therefore, you know, in order to
minister to the Swifties, I need to
become a Swifty, like I need to come
into their world so much so that I
become like them, that my passion,
my energy, my playlist, my Spotify
wrapped is to a Swifty so that then I
earn the right to have conversations
about that, which build relational
depth that eventually will get me to.
My question is, not that, uh, that
seems to be where the incarnational
model lends itself towards.
My pushback would be that I think that,
no, that winning a right to be heard, if
you want to take that phrase, it's more
about building healthy relationships
with these, uh, different culture, so
that there is a genuine sense of care.
There's a relational engagement there.
And so I, again, as a 42 year old
male, I don't need to become a Swifty.
I just need to care enough about
this young person to ask curious
questions and find out what is it like?
Like, you know, what
do you like about her?
What are the songs?
You know, not so that I have to
change my playlist, but just because
My conversations with this young
person, I'm helping understand them,
helping understand their world.
Uh, and what I'm actually doing
there is not becoming a swifty.
What I'm doing there is building
relational engagement so that
they know that this person,
I'm not just a target for them.
I'm not just a number, a objective,
you know, Tim sees me as a genuine
person with genuine interests.
He is curious about the
things that I'm interested in.
Um, and that, you know, It's because
of that, that when I say, Hey, as
someone who cares about Jesus, and cares
about you, tell you more about Jesus?
And, so I haven't had to become a
Swifty to minister to the Swifty,
I've just had to genuinely care
for this person in a way that they
can see that things are going on.
Matt?
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: Yeah, I
think a key part of that is is trust.
Right?
And I think that that's that
was part of the second stage.
The relationship is all
about building trust.
But it seems to me that the
incarnational model kind of building
this premise that trust can only
exist between people who are the same.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: Yes.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: like people.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: Yep.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517:
but I want to disagree.
I want to disagree with that entirely.
I mean, I think trust can be much
more robust when people are different.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Yeah.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: and so,
and that's why the relationships,
the relational side of it that
you're talking about, Tim, is so,
so crucial because that's, that's,
um, That's where the trust develops,
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Yeah.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: of whether
you're the same, whether you're different,
like, no matter where you are, like, in
relation to one another, it's actually
about the trust that you can have between
one another based on that relationship.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Yeah, and this
ties into a question that I have, and we
will look at some of the further critiques
that Tim Goff put to us last week, but,
you know, related to that idea of sameness
and difference and, um, and trust, one
of the things that rolls around my head
is this idea that if we are the same as
the world, and this is someone, someone
said this to me a while back and it sort
of stuck with me, but if we are the same
as the world, if the Christian church is
the same as the world, then we actually
don't have anything to offer the world.
Um, and so, you know, I guess if our
main way of attracting young people,
um, or, you know, the other side of kind
of, uh, incarnational ministry is sort
of going to them and winning the right.
The way, the main way in which we win the
right to be heard is to become a minister.
Um, you know, become like people and
essentially we're saying, you know, no,
no guys, you know, we're not that weird.
Um, you know, Christianity is actually
not that weird, but in some ways, I
guess the risk is if we kind of play
down the weirdness of Christianity,
then actually we may, you know, we
may end up in a position where we, we
actually have nothing to offer the world.
I don't know what you
guys think about that.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: Well, I was,
as you were saying, I agree with you,
Al, but I also think that the inverse
is true, is if, if we Christians are all
the same as each other, We don't have
that much to offer the world either.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520:
Yeah, that's right.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: And
that's kind of what I don't know.
That's the, that's the feeling that
I'm getting as I, as I hear about
incarnations, I think about it is that
it's based on this idea that we have to
be like one another in order to succeed.
but, you know, you play that
out to its end and it's like,
that's not a biblical picture.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: I mean, what's
the connection between, I mean, is there
a connection between the incarnational
model and then the kind of the age
segregated, um, models of ministry
that we see, um, so much in Sydney and
around the world when we think about
youth ministry and children's ministry.
Do you reckon there's a connection there?
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517:
Yes, I hadn't thought of that.
But, but hearing you
say that, I think yes.
Um, you know, you think about.
in my experience, uh, in churches
around youth ministry, there's, there's
the concept that, yeah, that you
have to be, that it's, it's really,
it's the young, cool, you know, guy
or girl that can really effectively
minister to the young people.
And that, that, like that, that's
generally not really held by youth
ministry workers, that, that, that idea.
It's not held by youth mystery
workers that I interact with, but
it is held by people in churches.
Um, and so you think like the,
the, the middle aged woman in
the church will think, okay, so
the young people need someone who
was, who was kind of like them.
So then you kind of flip that
thinking onto themselves to think,
okay, what, what is, what do I,
as a, as a middle aged woman need?
Well, actually I need
someone same as me as well.
And so it kind of reinforces
this same, same together in
our own silos around the place.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: I mean, I'm
not, uh, less convinced that they're
closely tied together, though I think
that they may reinforce each other,
they may be parallel tracks, so I
think a lot of the age and stage based
ministries that we have come out of,
industrialised schooling, come out of,
uh, yeah, educational psychology that
says, you know, at particular ages
people are capable of particular learning
styles, uh, though I agree with Matt
that The way that it sometimes works
out in practice is within, particularly
in youth ministry, are looking for
those who are not yet far beyond
youth themselves to minister to youth.
So you're looking for your young adults
to minister to your youth and by the
time you hit 35 you really should
be finding other ways to minister.
And it also works in reverse when you're
trying to recruit You know, uh, Gen
Xers, empty nesters to say, Hey, let's
invest in the youth of our church.
They go, Oh no, I did youth
ministry when I was 20.
Um, I've done my time, you know,
that's, that's a young person's game.
And part of the, you know, to get
me completely off track, part of
the intergenerational idea is to
say, no, no, actually the teenagers
really need you empty nesters.
There are things that you have
and you, uh, because of your age
and stage, that is so Unlock.
Teenagers lives need that they need
that from you and you need that from
them but so I think it does play
into that a bit that but maybe for a
You know a 55 year old to imagine if
they've sort of in the back of their
mind Even if it's unarticulated are
thinking in an incarnational ways You
know, I need to become like a young
person to minister to a young person
They're like well that that's so far
beyond me I it's been years and years
decades since I've been a young person.
I can't do that So the only way to
recruit intergenerational teams is to
go to be able to deconstruct some of
this incarnational model of ministry
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Interesting.
, Tim Goff last week, um, he, Uh, you
know, he spent a fair bit of time, um,
critiquing the incarnational model.
He did also say that it's, , it's
actually, you know, it's
not, it's not the bogeyman.
Um, like it's, it's not a terrible thing.
We've spent a little bit of
time on the critique there.
I wonder if you guys could kind of
offer, what are some of good things that
have emerged out of the incarnational
model, particularly as we think
about ministry in our context here
in Sydney and, um, and other contexts
that we're aware of around the world.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: I think
the kind of the openly relational
kind of mindset that drives it.
yeah, I'm, I'm really on board the,
the concept of, of being active
and pursuing relationship, uh, with
people where they're at, uh, rather
than make can try and get them to
conform to where, what we are like.
Um, uh, cause that feels,
that feels yuck too.
Um, you're having a real investment in,
in genuinely connecting with young people.
Yeah, I think it's, I think it's something
we can benefit from learning from.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Other good things?
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: There there's
a critique but it will lead to a good
thing think part of the The problem
with incarnational ministries, and
Tim Goff raises this, is that use
of the word incarnational, that
it sort of conflates two ideas.
One is the incommunicable
attributes of God, that
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Mm hmm.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: He is
specifically divine, and the
incarnation, theologically,
really should only apply to God.
God, what incarnational theologians
have done is conflate that divine
characteristic with I think a good
characteristic, which is that there's
an enculturation of the gospel for every
age and stage and generation and place
in history and those kinds of things.
So I think the good thing here is the high
priority of recognizing there are properly
enculturated ways of communicating
the gospel that spans across.
ages.
So, you know, to use metaphors or
language or concepts that are particular
to different generations, different, you
know, different, uh, culturals, different,
uh, racial or ethnic backgrounds, uh,
it's right to think carefully about
what are the metaphors and language that
this culture is going to understand.
Um, and so, you know, when it comes
to suburban youth ministry, if we're
not, again, we're not talking that
too different a culture, but if I'm
still using matrix metaphors and
Lord of the Rings, uh, yeah, Lord of
the Rings is 20 years old as movies,
um, much, much longer as books.
know, if that's, if I've run out of
metaphors in what I'm doing in teenage
ministry that ended 20 years ago
before any of them were even born,
then I think it's appropriate to notice
actually, there may be more appropriate
enculturations of explaining the gospel
in ways that will immediately connect
and they'll go, Oh, okay, that when
I'm listening to this band or watching
this on Tic Tac or this YouTube star,
that, So, are they digesting their
culture through the lens of the gospel?
And we want to be able
to help them to do that.
And so I think there is a helpful way
in which we can help them enculturate
the gospel message that transcends all
cultures into their particular culture.
Uh, and so that's a, that's a good thing.
I think the incarnational
ministry has done, emphasised that
that's a good work to be doing.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: I think
that, uh, kind of underlines that, uh,
that Tim's kind of, his re branding of
Incarnational, um, ministry as, what
was it, contextual, relational, um,
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: Yeah.
Absolutely.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: Like, I
think that, yeah, that's a, that's a
label that I go, yeah, that, that makes
sense of what they're trying to do.
And actually I really admire both the
contextualization, like what you're
saying, like where they're at, because,
you know, youth context, Change over time
doesn't take long for them to move on.
Right.
So constantly trying to engage
with the youth contexts, uh, in a
relational way to the end of, of,
of proclaiming the gospel to them.
I think that's a really,
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: And so if I draw
some of the threads that we've, we've
kind of been thinking about, um, together,
you know, in some ways that sort of
enculturation rather than, uh, I guess
some of what we're saying is rather than
becoming identical to the young person.
It's that curiosity piece.
It's that kind of trying to understand
the world of the young person so we can
bring to bear the gospel in the life
of that young person in a way that is
coherent, it's livable, it makes sense,
you can see the connection from the
gospel to life and that kind of thing.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: Yeah,
I was saying in a way that
we can contribute to as well.
So one of the, one of the things that
really stood out to me about what he,
what he was saying is that, um, The
incarnational youth ministry kind of
presumes that teenagers are the experts of
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Hmm.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: and he says
that's not always necessarily true and I
agree, it's not always necessarily true.
I do want to uphold teenagers
as experts of teenagers, right?
But I, um, but I also want to recognize
that like the rest of us, they're,
they're, um, they're, they're fallible,
you know, they're not going to
understand or apply their understanding
in a perfect way all the time.
And so, uh, It's about the context so that
we understand them, but also to understand
how we contribute to that context and how
we contribute to the teenagers as well as
someone who doesn't actually naturally fit
within that context, if that makes sense.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: And I
think what we need is a both end.
Because, and this comes from, I mean
I remember when I was at university
many, many years ago studying sociology.
Uh, but one of the things that stuck
with me is that, uh, sometimes the
insider has very, um, prescient
observations of their culture.
but there are things that they
are blinded to, and there are some
times when an outsider has the
most significant contributions to
observations about their culture.
Because they're not blinded
by being in the culture.
And good sociological
theory does, needs both.
You,
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Has
insider and outsider views.
Yeah.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: right.
So there are things, there are ways
in which, yes, you know, a 16 year
old today can help me understand
what is the lived experience of
a adolescent in suburban Sydney.
I can't have that lived experience.
I'm 42.
Um, but there are good.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: fact that you
have been 16, that was however many years
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: It was
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: is
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: exactly.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517:
completely changed.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: Absolutely.
But there are things that, uh, So,
you know, as a 42 year old, um, I can
look into today's teenage culture,
and I will notice some things as well.
The best kind of ministry is going to come
from a both end, where we're engaged in
discipling relationships with each other,
uh, that they inform my understanding
of teenagehood and adolescence.
I can inform their understanding
of their experience, and together
we can have a conversation where
we're exploring it together.
Um, and then, you know, a 40 year
old woman from sub Saharan Africa,
uh, comes and visits our church
and says, well, let me look at your
Anglo suburban Sydney in a way from a
completely different cultural point.
And then we listen to her and go,
oh, that's really interesting.
You're noticing a whole lot of things
by being completely different again.
So this is where I think conversations
between the different generations, ethnic
groupings, socioeconomic groupings,
et cetera, um, Yes, there is expertise
in being from there, but there's also
expertise that comes from observing it
from the outside, uh, and not putting
one necessarily above the other, but
allowing conversation to take place.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Yeah.
And there's a sort of a, there's
a humility that goes along
with that, which I think that's
what the gospel asks us to do.
And we do want our young people to, to
grow in that humility, to be able to
listen to other voices and also, and it
goes just as much the other other way.
We want our 42, 44, you know,
50, 60, whatever year olds to
also practice that humility.
of understanding that they don't
know everything about what it's
like to be a teenager right now.
They don't know everything about culture.
They don't know everything about,
you know, the, the, the, the
lived experience of teenagers.
And so actually, I mean, it sounds a
little bit to me like we're, we're talking
about the one Corinthian model of church
where you know, the I can't say to the
foot or whatever, whichever kind of part
of the body can't say, I don't need you.
Actually, we do need one another.
And that takes a degree of humility to
be able to kind of, uh, to be able to
accept that and live into that, I guess.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: Yeah, I'd I'd
kind of I'd nuance it even further and
say optimistic humility I think sometimes
we use this word humility about putting
ourself off and being subservient to to
the other, which of course is a noble
kind of thing, but I think the kind of
humility that we're talking about is is
being optimistic that the other person
actually has something to contribute
in the same way that I have something
to contribute with them as well.
Um, not not coming into
it in a presumptuous way.
Uh, one way or the other, you know,
that I've, I've got to, got to pass on
my, my knowledge and my, my faith here.
But also there's a, there's an optimism
that this young person can actually
benefit me if I'm willing to be with them.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Love it.
Um, Tim Goff does kind of critique the
incarnational model of youth ministry.
And we have been, uh, We've been talking
about that a little bit, but he sort
of starts it off by kind of, I guess,
outlining what the incarnation is.
And he gives us six points.
He says that, you know, is about
the pre existence of Jesus before
all things, or I should say of
the eternal son before all things.
About the incarnation is
about the hypostatic union, i.
e.
that Jesus is both
fully God and fully man.
Um, about the idea of emptying,
um, uh, and that idea of humility
that, that, that, um, you know, like
Philippians 2, Jesus empties himself.
He, he, um, he doesn't consider
equality with God something to be
used to his own advantage from the
words of Philippians 2, but, um, but
rather doesn't avail himself of those
characteristics for the benefit of others.
Um, fourthly, you know,
the idea of the atonement.
Um, and there's, there's a kind of a, a, a
salvation element there going on as well.
eschatology, so in the incarnation, Jesus
ushers in, um, the kind of new, the new
creation, um, and then finally revelation.
That is the incarnation is
a revelatory kind of event.
You can see.
who God is by looking
at, , Jesus incarnate.
Um, and the reason that he outlines
that kind of, uh, broad sweep
doctrine of the incarnation is it, he
wants to point to the idea that the
incarnation is essentially about God.
Um, it's a, it's a doctrine that is
about God, he then kind of utilizes
that for a bit of a critique.
Tim, do you want to kind of, um,
walk us through that critique?
Um, uh, the semantic critique
that Tim talked about last week.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: Yeah, so
essentially Tim Goff is talking about
the, got this fully fleshed out doctrine
of the incarnation which incarnational
theology grasps an aspect of, particularly
that revelation aspect that, uh, Jesus has
become human in order to reveal God to us.
And just taking that one particular thread
and said let's build a missiology out
of that which is to become like others
in order to share the gospel with them.
Um, or in the third wave, uh,
become like others, enter into a
relationship with them because that
in and of itself is gospel work.
Uh, which he critiques, uh,
in a different way as well.
But I think it's really helpful just
to say, no, all of this is incarnation.
And again, in terms of
a systematic approach.
Theology, language, these are all
incommunicable attributes of God.
They are things that are only divine and
that humans are not called to enter into.
We are not called to pre exist, to have
hypostatic union, share in atonement,
uh, divine humility, eschatology.
Um, and
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: As much,
as much as we might like to
think that we have all of that.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: that's right.
But even the revelatory actions, um, there
are, God revealed himself through Jesus
in a way that we are not able to, and I
think this is a really helpful critique he
gets to a little bit later when he talks
about the practical theological critique.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: to go there.
Let's do it.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: well, I
just think the connection is that
we can feel and feel burdened by the
fact that, uh, The revelation of God
to this young person is through me.
Um, I, it's all dependent on me.
And this can come with a missionary
burden, um, particularly when that
work doesn't go according to plan.
What he, uh, says in, uh, in
response to that is, well no, we
have to remember that it's always
actually God's work of revelation.
And the Holy Spirit, yes, chooses
to work through us, but the
Holy Spirit is the one working.
The Holy Spirit is the one who is,
you know, taking the scales off the
eyes, it says in 2 Corinthians 4, and
you know, the Spirit is the one who
is giving rebirth to these people.
And so even the revelatory action
of the incarnation is not fully
handed on to humans, despite.
Great commission and the
importance of spreading the gospel.
So, I think the critique here is let's
not use the language of incarnation when
that's not actually what we're doing.
We're not incarnating.
we are instead contextually,
relationally ministering to young people.
That's good.
That's great.
Let's do that.
Uh, let's not call it incarnation.
Because we're claiming too much, uh,
and so he's, he's quite firm actually.
He says don't hijack divine terms.
And I think, uh, I probably
wouldn't have put it that
forcefully, but I agree with it.
I think that's good.
I think it's like, let's not use
theological concepts which appropriately
belong to God to talk about mission.
Let's use other good, helpful, clear
concepts to talk about the mission
that we're doing with young people.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: He summarized
the idea of Incarnational Youth
Ministry as, you know, because Jesus
is In, it was incarnate, we adapt to,
or we change to become like, um, the
people that we're trying to reach.
And, uh, I think what you're sort
of saying, what Tim was saying last
week was that that's, that's not,
that's not a legitimate move to make.
That because Jesus was incarnate,
we should be exactly like him.
in the, in our approach to youth ministry.
And so, yeah, some of the
things that you're talking
about, there's a burden there.
There's a burden for us to be the,
the revelation of, of Jesus in our
relationships, that kind of thing.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: One of
the critiques he gives is about
the practical outworkings of this.
And I guess this leads to me, one
of the questions for you guys who
are both in youth ministry I realise
I didn't actually answer your
question before Al about whether
we see this in children's ministry.
I think probably less so
than in youth ministry.
Um, but he talks about the,
there's an issue in the practical
ways of this because a lot of
those who claim that they are.
incarnational youth ministers, uh, in
the research that he has done, have
practices that express that openness
and vulnerability, in maybe immature
ways, in ways that actually aren't
helpful for their own ministry, for
the safety of themselves and for the
young people that they look after.
Um, and so he talks about, you
know, that the young people always
have their phone numbers and
know that they can call anytime.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520:
And the open door policy.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514:
Yeah, those kinds of things.
My question is, and I guess broadly
speaking, at a big category level,
do you guys see youth ministers
in particularly our immediate
context in Sydney, of themselves
as incarnational youth ministers?
And whether or not that's the case,
do you see the youth ministers that
you guys advise, Exploring these kinds
of practical applications of it that
potentially are dangerous or Wearing
or burdening and lead to burnout
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: I don't, I
don't think that I see that amongst
Our most immediate context of Sydney
Anglican youth ministers very much.
I think I tend to see the opposite.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: Okay Can
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: of course,
the safe ministry and all that and
all the stuff that all the issues
that Tim raised in his thing about
that kind of unsafe situations and
opening up itself up to vulnerability.
Like, I think he made a really good point
there and I really want to affirm that.
safe practices.
Uh, that's not what I'm talking about.
What I see, um, is, is youth ministers
who are perhaps so fearful of being
burnt by potentially a relationship
that, you know, um, goes bad.
They put up too many barriers
and don't actually let the young
people in at all very much.
I do, having said that, I do see that, um,
I don't want to call it.
I don't want to say it's the immature
practice, but that that that inclination
to be made perhaps a little bit too open.
I do see that sometimes in youth
ministry workers who are not of
the Sydney Anglican persuasion.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520:
And I, I think I would.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: observation.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: I think I would
add to that, like, I think your, your kind
of, um, uh, what you're saying about youth
ministers in our context would be true.
And I think it's broadly, it's
broadly speaking, I would say the
incarnational model, um, hasn't
been, uh, is not currently used
in its kind of pure form here.
I think it's a much more, it
influences, uh, there are influences
of particularly in the relationships
and the contextualization kind of idea.
But I do think that even though youth
ministers maybe are not picking up on
these, these, or picking up this model
and utilising it as it is, I reckon, um,
as I go around, I reckon I see, um, a lot
of, uh, youth volunteers, so leaders, Um,
very much feeling that burden of being
available for their youth as much as they
possibly can and that, that, that key,
the key thing that they do is they build
relationships with these young people, um,
uh, and that they're available to them.
And I think that that's increased as our
focus on and our understanding on mental
health, um, issues has increased as well.
And so maybe, maybe 10 years ago.
Um, uh, you know, maybe 10 years ago
it was present in a different form,
but now the form that it takes is
being available for people as they
work through mental health issues.
Um, and that certainly can be a burden.
Um, you know, uh, certainly can be
a major burden on youth leaders.
And so I think we need to be, you
know, I think we need to know as
youth leaders, um, You know, it's
holding it all in tension, right?
Because we want to be available for
young people because we love, love them.
We care for them.
You know, they're people.
They're not just people, you're not
just things to move from A to B in
their relationship with, with Jesus,
but actually people that we love.
And at the same time, um, wanting
to make sure that, you know, we
understand what we can and can't do.
Matt.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: I was
just thinking that the mental
health kind of aspect of it as
well as you're speaking out.
That's what the, um, that would be ideas
that were forming in my head and what you
can understand it because it comes from
a heart of compassion towards people.
who are obviously going through a
tough time and you want to love them.
And Jesus tells us to love one another and
to, and to, and to be selfless in that.
Um, and so you can
understand how it does to it.
But, um, thinking through
how do we go about exercising love
and compassion in a way that Um,
overstepping or allowing the mark
to be overstepped by other people.
Um, yeah, I don't know that I have any
answers right now, but it was certainly
a thought that was coming into my head.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: I ask a
follow up question of you guys in
terms of Looking after adolescents
with mental health concerns.
We know it's very very prevalent
You Um, I'm reflecting on, he talks
about the third wave of incarnational
ministry, actually, uh, sort of takes
out that third step of proclamation
and sees just the place sharing and
the proximity of being with young
people as in and of itself, the gospel.
So he talks about, uh, we didn't want
to see the building relationships as a
platform for the gospel because that's
manipulative, rather third wave sees
relationships themselves as the final.
Uh, and again, I wonder in our media
context, I don't think, uh, any of
our youth ministers would necessarily
articulate Uh, I think that they would
sort of hear that definition and go,
Oh, no, we don't know about that.
We're all about the gospel.
We've got to proclimate the gospel.
I also wonder, and this is my
question for you guys who have
experience with youth ministry.
Do we see some of this caring for
adolescents with mental health?
Maybe.
more like third wave in that
I'm actually just going to be
relationally with these people.
I'm there to place share with them.
I'm there to hold them in this
place and relate to them and
maybe not getting to the gospel.
Maybe, you know, we might, know, give
two ways to live, but we might not go
further than the how the gospel deep
into all aspects of I don't know.
Does that make sense?
al_1_12-17-2024_132520:
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
So I mean, the, the, the question of, um,
uh, are we seeing, uh, I think like it's
a, it's possibly a, a practical outworking
rather than a, like, as you mentioned,
Tim, it's a practical outworking.
I don't know the degree to which
incarnational theology is influencing
this, this, in the arena of, of,
um, of mental health, but something
like what they talk about with
place sharing, I think, happens.
You know, that, that proximity,
relationships being the end
goal, that kind of thing.
Something like that.
Um, is a risk when we, when we have,
uh, when, yeah, particularly when
youth leaders feel that burden of,
um, of being there for people in, in,
in their mental health crises or just
walking the journey as they think
about what life is like and their
mental health and that kind of thing.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: As you're
saying, I don't think it isn't
necessarily an explicit outworking
of incarnational ministry, but it
certainly is something that happens.
I wonder if it's due to a felt lack
of knowing how to faithfully and
biblically interact with, with,
with people who are going
through mental illness.
And I think we are growing in that
area, you know, for a young youth
leader, volunteer youth leader who.
He hasn't read the books.
He hasn't done the thing.
He hasn't listened to the podcasts.
What are they?
What have they got?
Well, they think they go, uh,
well, we've got the book of Job.
Job was struggling and we know that, that
his friends, when they kept on talking
to him, we're doing the wrong thing.
And, and we affirm that when they weren't
talking to the him, then when I was
just sitting with him in his misery.
But they were doing the right thing and
so I guess that's what we got to do.
We got to sit with our friends,
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: yeah,
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517:
at what point do we then
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: yeah.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: begin to
try and make some gospel focused
focus kind of progress with them.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Yeah, something
like the timidity, um, that, uh, seems
timidity of proclamation that seems
to be there with third wave, um, uh,
incarnational youth ministry, uh,
something like that is there with,
um, being timid about speaking about
how the gospel is brought to bear.
on a young person's life when
they're experiencing mental health.
I think we are worried about
overstepping with the gospel.
I actually think that similar to what
Tim Coff was saying last week, we do
need to be able to proclaim the gospel.
And by proclaim the gospel, I think
what we're talking about is showing
that the deep coherence and relevance
of the gospel to all of life, this
holistic, you know, if I've got
a mental health issue, yes, yes.
Uh, the gospel, you know, it
makes, it can make sense of that.
It might not provide all of the, the
solutions to alleviating that mental
health crisis right here and now, but it
does make sense of, you know, life makes
sense when you understand the gospel.
I think, um, you know, in the face of that
potential timidity of proclamation, um,
maybe we, uh, yeah, maybe we do need to
kind of, I guess, you you know, wind, wind
back or learn lessons from, , from first
and second wave, incarnational model of
youth ministry, where we, we say those
relationships are a platform to speak the
truth of the gospel into the lives of the
people, no matter what they're facing.
And I think we, I think we need
to make sure that we understand
that the gospel is the solution
ultimately to, to all of life.
Even if it's not going to solve and
alleviate every single thing that,
um, a young person's facing today.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: Yeah,
I think that's really helpful.
And come back to, I think, one of Tim's
final critiques there, uh, when we talk
about the practical theology is actually
the whole enterprise, uh, we, we've
noted some of the good and we've noted
the enculturation piece is helpful.
However, we also want to acknowledge
that, um, an overemphasis on
enculturation, um, Rob's proclamation
of its power, and that was something
that Tim said in the last episode.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Mm.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: what is wonderful
about the gospel is, yes, it does
come enculturated, uh, in some sense,
but it also does transcend culture.
The gospel that the Sub Saharan
Africans and the South Koreans and
the Chinese and the Macedonians
and the Australians and etc.
believe, uh, is enculturated in their
own place, they will have their own
metaphors, they'll have their own
language, they'll have different ways
in which they understand it, which
speak particularly to their cultures.
And yet there is also
something that transcends.
And this is good news for youth
ministry, because it actually means
I don't have to become like a young
person, uh, in order to minister to
a young person, because actually it's
the same gospel that has saved and is
continuing to have its power save me.
a 40 year old, as it is to the 12 year
old, the 14 year old, the 16 year old.
And so therefore, uh, be curious,
be contextually relational.
Absolutely.
And yet, if we overplay that, we lose the
power for, I can actually speak the self,
the, sorry, the, the saving work of Jesus
on the cross in a way that a 16 year old
who has very little in common with me.
the Holy Spirit can speak to them
and make that apply to their life,
and they can hear and respond to
the gospel despite our differences.
And
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Yeah.
tim_1_12-17-2024_132514: that
sort of takes out the necessity
of an incarnational approach.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: Amen.
I like, I'm, I'm really yeah that
I, I highly agree with you, Tim.
I think, what is it with us humans that
we always keep on tending towards either
one end or the other of a spectrum.
We can't just seem to ever hold
things in tension for too long.
We do, maybe we do for a moment,
but then we just revert back to the
spectrum, to the ends of the spectrum.
Like, because on the one hand I see,
like we want to avoid the idea that, um,
someone becoming a Christian is, Like
an assimilation process that they've
got to become like us and behave like
us and look like us and just be like us.
And when they're not, that's,
there's a question mark.
But on the other end of the
spectrum is, is, seems to be.
Yeah.
incarnational ministry where we
have to become like them in order
to have an effective outcome.
But like neither of those two
extremes is what we see in the Bible.
We, we see, we see diversity in the Bible.
We, we see difference and
it's a beautiful picture.
You know, we, I'm, you know, I think of
the eschatologically that in revelation,
the gathering of people around God's
throne, Who are all entirely different.
You know, it's from every tribe, nation,
tongue, every age, male, female, you
know, all the different, um, things that
identify people as individuals still in
existence with them, they're in unity.
Uh, and I think we just really keep
need to keep on reinforcing that
unity does not mean uniformity.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Mm.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: it's an,
it's an entirely different thing.
al_1_12-17-2024_132520: Mm.
And, um, just reflecting on what both
of you have said there as well, I think,
I wonder if, Um, to the degree that we
lean really heavily on that enculturation
kind of thing, sometimes we can
forget that these are not our truths
that we're speaking to young people.
These are God's truths.
And um, to remember that actually the
gospel is God's gospel and therefore by
definition is relevant to the world around
us, no matter who, who the people that
we're speaking it to are, um, I think is
a really, life giving thing to remember as
we speak the gospel to people around us.
matt_1_12-17-2024_132517: Yeah.
And that, that's the
thing that unifies us.
It's not whether we're both
Swifties or both skaters or both
16 year old, it's the gospel.