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Dig In is your go to source for insights innovation. It's for anyone with a genuine interest in fostering brand and product growth, exploring groundbreaking innovations, and embracing the dynamic world of expanding businesses and brands.
Jess Gaedeke (00:00)
Hi everybody. It's Jess. We're here for another Dig inspiration episode. And today I sit down with Betsy Pendergast. She is a VP at Dig in our future strategy and innovation group. And we talk about my conversation with Erin Miller at Yahoo. So have a listen.
Jess Gaedeke (00:20)
Hey Betsy, thanks for joining today.
Betsy Pendergast (00:21)
Glad to be here.
Jess Gaedeke (00:22)
So we are gonna chat about my conversation with Erin Miller and hopefully you found it as interesting as I did. I think she shared some really cool perspectives. So I thought you'd be a great person to kind of chat about it. first and foremost, one of the things she talked about, she's super bullish on human connection and it becoming more important. you know, not less important as AI is more embedded in work.
I'd love from your perspective, like do you think the more digital and automated things become? Do you agree with Erin that sort of the more valuable in person experiences and relationships will be? Or what's your point of view and and also, you know, your personal point of view? But I'd love from like a macro standpoint as well. What do you think?
Betsy Pendergast (00:58)
Yeah, I am definitely in strong agreement with her. I think that this scarce skill will be knowing like how to leverage technology in your workflows while still making your relationships feel really human and not optimized or transactional. I think we already are seeing kind of a bifurcation in the market where you are seeing kind of more value based, really AI of full.
workflows where it's like taking the human completely out of it. And I think that where we really shine and where practitioners in this space really shine is just ensuring that humans stay a part of it and that our creativity is coming through. in key touch points. and so this is just like a a personal example, but I was thinking about when she was saying it. And I think that there's something really interesting around the idea of setting intentions with how you
personally want to use AI or for your teams because I think one of the things I was reflecting on is like I try really hard to never write client emails with because I want my relationships to be authentic and personal. And so although AI can handle like challenging conversations or things potentially better, take some of the kind of emotional side of relationships off the table, I still think that it's a really important muscle that we flex.
And that we ensure that we're continuing to build those human-to-human relationships. Because I think one, it leads to better work because we're able to understand broader context. And so much kind of context cues are passed through just relationship building. But I also think on top of that, it's just a skill that everyone needs in our field. and really an important part of like we want our work
to be valuable, we want to do great work, but at the same time, we want the process of creating that work to be really enjoyable. And a huge part of that is the relationships that you build along.
Jess Gaedeke (02:48)
Yeah, I agree. And I think that she really touched on something that we've been feeling at Dig as well is you just can't replace the in person face to face time, right? Like, especially at these things like these events, like when you can carve off, you know, a couple clients and really spend some quality time with them, give them, you know, more of a VIP experience that that really
is memorable, right? It sticks with you. You sort of form the rapport. You have your inside jokes that you can reference later. Like so it it feels like that's back in fashion now. And I'm here for it. I'm like I'm suiting
Betsy Pendergast (03:17)
Yeah.
Jess Gaedeke (03:18)
for it.
Betsy Pendergast (03:18)
I just got home from Austin and I learned to two step with my client. So these things are important for sure.
Jess Gaedeke (03:23)
Yeah.
Okay. Well, video please. That's a that's a must now.
the other thing that really stuck with me from Erin is she described her function as moving from what was worker B to now change maker. And, that got me thinking too, is as AI does take on more of the routine work, do you think that more functions will be sort of expected to be these change makers, really shape the future of the business? How do you see that shifting?
Betsy Pendergast (03:49)
Yes, for sure. I think the really important thing is that when you think about how you want to apply AI for yourself, your teams, your organization, you definitely want to focus on AI that gives people more room to think, but not simply more capacity to produce. And so we sometimes talk about this as like capacity creep and this idea that, all of a sudden we're going to be able to do 50% more work or something like that. And I think
There are some efficiencies to be gained for sure. But I think that just it because AI can do something doesn't mean that it should. And I think it's possible to leverage AI to do more. that can also just make you a better worker bee. That's not a change agent mentality. And so I think like the idea of intentional use and creating like a values-based
conversation on where AI is helpful and should be leveraged in order to make us better change agents. And where you're using AI as potentially a crutch that could create atrophy and things that are core capability that could that could put you in a space where you are a worker B and you're continuing to be a cog in that wheel and you can produce a ton of work, but the meaning is stripped. And so I think ultimately the real opportunity is that
Every function across an organization can ultimately become a stronger business partner when leveraged AI effectively.
Jess Gaedeke (05:09)
Yeah.
And I love the just vibe of that transformation for her, right? To go from what felt like worker bee just kinda like going through the motions to something that can be super influential. I think that is the optimistic and, you know, aspirational side of things, which I love. These conversations are like so inspiring for for so many reasons, but I love that shift within her her role and her discipline.
Betsy Pendergast (05:29)
It's really cool to see the conversation around AI shift from one that was solely about efficiency to one that's about capability. And I think that that becomes a much more interesting strategic conversation around what are all the things we've always wanted to do or always wanted to realize that now we can
Jess Gaedeke (05:44)
Yeah. So Betsy, as you know at Dig, we've been doing a lot of innovation and thinking around System Zero. So that is the AI mediated layer of decision making that happens before a consumer even makes a choice. And what's really interesting about System Zero is it does create a commercial risk for brands. So there can be a brand that's super well known, preferred by consumers, but
it still might lose that choice if AI systems either exclude it, maybe flatten how it's differentiated, or just misrepresent the brand. So in your view, what does that mean for brands? What do they need to consider as system zero becomes increasingly influential?
Betsy Pendergast (06:21)
Mm-hmm. This is where I think brands need to understand not just how they're perceived by people. And so, like all of those really rich brand health insights, but also how they're represented, compared, and recommended by the systems that are shaping people's ultimate choices. And so a lot of what I think about here is that it's protecting the fundamentals. You want a really clear positioning, credible proof points, reasons to believe, consistent messaging.
And then I think the most important one, honestly, is distinct value. We've seen so much fragmentation where it's like there's a singular product that exists for a singular use case. And I think that that experience, like when you're thinking about a shopping, like shopping at shelf, is causes that like paradox of choice. But I think what we'll see in this kind of AI mitigated world with system zero, that that is actually a
compelling operational structure because you're no longer looking for like an entire aisle. You're looking for a very curated view that fits an individual use case that you have. And so one of the things we've been talking about within System Zero is just the idea that we might actually be upstreaming decision making pre-category. And so you might be thinking about something like, I want healthy hair, before you're even thinking about shampoo as a potential solution for that. And so
I think it becomes a really interesting and important frame that that brands are thinking about like what their distinctive value and what their use case is and really clearly articulating and defining that. And so when someone is interacting with AI and asking for recommendations, AI is picking up on that distinct use case and recommending it. And obviously you want to make sure that use case has some scale. Like I think a great example is Celsius, the energy drink, and positioning really around
of the workout drink. Obviously part of that is like in the molecule and formulation, but the other part of it is just the marketing strategy. And so all of a sudden they've created this use case where you probably wouldn't be showing up with Red Bull or Monster or something like that. And so they've created a competitive context where they are winning. And that strategy worked in the market, but now it's going to continue to work, I think, as we see System Zero continue to advance and be
A place where where consumers are really turning as a first route for information.
Jess Gaedeke (08:34)
Yeah. it's just fascinating to me and a little overwhelming at times when I think about as, a marketing function and strategy function, much you have to think about now and sort of how many audiences you need keep in mind as you're developing your strategy and your tactics. And now we have this whole digital frontier you have to worry about in a in a greater way. It's just I mean it's an opportunity, Betsy, but it's kind of stressful, right?
Betsy Pendergast (08:55)
Yeah.
For sure. It's also like I feel like so much like my background being brand, it's like an interesting thing to think about. Like some of the it's going back to the fundamentals that are always part of brand architecture, of course, but then it's expressing it in a different way. And then we tend to think so much about the humanity of like building community and building excitement and fandoms and all of that. And it's like, what does that look like when you're applying the context to like
wanting to appeal to chat GPT. Like what
Jess Gaedeke (09:23)
Right.
Betsy Pendergast (09:24)
does that community look like?
Jess Gaedeke (09:25)
Crazy. it's again an opportunity but a little stressful at times. I also know you've got some experience with Yahoo, so you know the brand well, you know quite a bit about sort of what they've been up to and they are in a broader brand transformation and trying to find like new ways to tell their brand story. So and I've talked to a number of guests that have have been part of that, right? Like it's a an established brand with crazy equity, lot of longevity, and it's how do we actually reframe what
people know us for. so does it take to do that for an established brand to really make sure that they evolve, but don't lose the equity that they worked so hard to build over years.
Betsy Pendergast (09:59)
Yeah. think this one is a big challenge and it is somewhat variable depending on what brand or category you're in. But I think the most important part of it is maintaining both continuity and curiosity. And so you have to keep the core promise of like your first principle that is built all of this trust over the years really intact while also showing through your actions that the brand is evolving.
And I think that can become really interesting and challenging to your point earlier. because when you think about like building these long-term equities, one of the things that when thinking about is like, how do you stay relevant at the pace of culture? And how do you ensure that your old equities or your your current equities aren't things that are gonna hold you back three years from now So I think it's like a constant evolution in just staying on the
the pulse of one, what makes you unique and staying uncompromising about that, while also thinking more holistically around where your consumer is going, where your aspirational audience is. I think most people are drawn to brands that highlight some component of their aspirational self. And so it's important that brands continually stay ahead of that and are seen as constantly growing and evolving.
And I think the the way that I tend to put it is similar to like the people that we find most magnetic or drawn to socially. They have this interesting range as you kind of peel away, you learn more and more about them and you're kind of more drawn in and curious. and I think that that's the important part of brands don't need to adhere to five single adjectives that that are supposed to express their whole being. It's the idea that
you continuously live and grow through experience while maintaining that core character.
Jess Gaedeke (11:40)
Yeah. Absolutely. it's so interesting to think about what types of brands we associate ourselves with, you know, in our professional and our personal lives. So I'm gonna throw one of the impromptu questions I I'd give the guests as well at you, but like what's a brand that you would date and a brand that you would marry?
Betsy Pendergast (11:55)
I would date Kate, Kalmeyer, a lot of the kind of more contemporary voices in fashion today. just curious where they'll continue to go. I mean, I've loved the the Blazy Chanel moment.
It's been really exciting. I think for Mary, I love I love Solomon. in an interesting way. Like I think that they're they've done a actually talking about brand evolution, they have done a phenomenal job of dabbling in fashion and becoming like a fashion shoe in a really natural and organic way. But they are still the best trail running shoes I've ever worn. And they have not sacrificed
quality or performance in any way, although their context has shifted. I think something really interesting there is that they haven't adopted this idea of going too far into fashion. They are still core to like they might come out with new colorways, but they're still pretty core to their initial products and and core SKUs. And so I think that that's a really cool example of one that like
is leveraging the kind of kind of or organic case. Like a lot of designers started wearing Solomons. And so then that became a bigger thing. But from a performance angle, they're still really respected as a trail running and outdoor brand. And so I think that could be an interesting parallel where you can expand the aperture within which you can play while still not losing your core IP.
Jess Gaedeke (13:12)
Really good brands there.
and I thought it was really cool when Erin described, you know, a culture where leaders are willing to say yes before saying no. I just love that. And, you know, how important do you think that mindset really is if you're trying to create space for innovation?
Betsy Pendergast (13:25)
Yeah, I think so creating psychological safety, I think is important. I mean, we talk about it all the time in like professional environments anyway. But I think in an innovation context, it becomes so much more so because there's a level of vulnerability in offering ideas. because there's there's always a part of yourself in that that experience. And so I think the way that we always frame it in workshops or think intern internally, even I think the ethos of dig is just that.
We want quantity of ideas, like someone's bad idea can lead to the next great one. And so from a a future strategy and innovation perspective, we think a lot about the concept of convergence. And in order to know convergence or the idea of a lot of themes coming together at once, it becomes so much more important than a single idea or a single signal. And it's really the relationship between multiples that show a trajectory or momentum.
towards long term success that become really important. And so when you talk about this like yes mentality, is completely essential because you have to understand what the broader themes are. And the more people are contributing, the more likely you are to get to that goal.
Jess Gaedeke (14:32)
Yes, absolutely. I agree, and I love that you guys create that space and you have actual
process and methods that create that space for great innovation. So thank you for joining me today to chat about the episode with Erin. it's always good to pick your brain
Betsy Pendergast (14:45)
No, it's a pleasure. Love being here. Thanks, Jess.