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Small group leaders, pastors, and more discussing strategies for growth and community in church groups. The Small Group Network is an international ministry that equips churches to engage in deeper discipleship and community.
James Browning: Hello, and
welcome to F G squared.
Steve Gladen the global pastor of small
groups from Saddleback church polls
from his over 25 years of experience.
To encourage and equip listeners like
you to lead small group ministry.
So let's listen and learn together.
Derek Olson: To SG Squared,
Steve Gladen on Small Groups.
Derek here with the main man
of the hour, the man whose very
initials stand for Small Groups.
Give it up for Steve Gladen.
Steve, how are you, my friend?
Steve Gladen: Hey everybody.
Welcome into 2025 as crazy as that sounds.
It's just a reality.
Uh, we're dropping the show a little
bit later because it normally would
have dropped, uh, on the first.
And if any of you are like
any of us, we weren't thinking
about listening to a podcast.
So it comes to you live on the second.
Derek Olson: Yeah, Happy New Year.
I literally cannot believe it's 2025.
What's happened?
Steve Gladen: Yeah, it's, I mean, they
just fly on by, but we're still here.
We'll be with you.
We'll be with you to
welcome you into 2026 to,
Derek Olson: Now Steve, tell our
listeners, how long have you been at
Saddleback Church now doing small groups?
Steve Gladen: uh, this is 27.
See, I think 1998, I'm trying
to do my math real quick.
27 years, I think,
Derek Olson: run.
So you started in 98?
So,
Steve Gladen: yeah, March one of 98.
So a couple months here, we'll be a.
I'll flip the dial in
another year at Saddleback.
It's crazy.
Super crazy.
Derek Olson: incredible run, my friend.
Congratulations on that.
Uh, all those years doing small
groups at one church, that is
something, uh, I think to be proud of.
But let me ask you this.
Now that we're in 2025, let's take,
uh, just a minute or two to look
back on the year that was, 2024.
Do you have a top learning regarding
small group life, small groups at
Saddleback or anything that comes to
mind to look back on the year that was?
Steve Gladen: Well, I mean,
a lot, lots is happening.
Lots is changing in our small group
world here at Saddleback, but I would
say that the, the macro learning,
cause Andy has been here now.
Gosh, two, almost two and a
half years ish, about two and
a quarter years in actuality.
And, um, And although, uh, things are
in, in a little bit of a change mode to,
uh, to kind of fit where Andy's going.
I think one of the learnings and sometimes
we forget it is that we're, we're,
we're on staff or we're volunteering to
serve the lead pastor that is in charge.
We're there to help them.
you know, move their agenda down the road.
And I think sometimes what we
forget, I was just at a think
tank in Nashville last year.
And, um, I was talking to, uh, one of the
pastors that was doing groups who had a
new senior leader that was in and he had
never had never thought about, you know,
dialing the small group, uh, methodology
around where, where that lead pastor was.
And, you know, one of the things, you
know, it's actually to share with Derek
before we started the show was that, you
know, the majors are staying the same.
We're a church of small groups, not with
where temple courts were house to house.
Life change happens best in community.
We want everyone to have a second step
out of the weekend service that lands
them into some type of connection
that will move them into community.
And so the major stay the same, but
sometimes you've got to change language
and you've got to change a little
bit of your strategy, which will help
you kind of be more in alignment.
With the senior leader.
So I think one of the big
learnings in 2024, I'm trying
to say 2025 as much as I can.
So, uh, but in 2024 is, is the factor
of, you know, getting into know Andy
and what comes off of his lips, what
are the things that, uh, where he is
gravitating towards from the stage so that
we can come alongside and mimic the same
language that he would want to say, uh,
like Rick would always say an example.
Rick would always say, get a relationship
and responsibility the way Andy's wired.
He's like going, we need everyone
to get into a group and into a team.
And so similar things, similar
strategy, but you just got to
align everything to work with that.
So I think my biggest learning in
2024 is, is learning, you know,
where, where Andy naturally flows to.
So that, uh, I can come behind him and
build a strategy that serves him best
and where he feels the most comfortable.
So we're still in the mix of all that.
So I don't want to give you any
illusion that we've, we've got it
all ironed out, but we're getting
closer and closer and closer.
And I'm praying that at the, by the
close of 2025, we're talking a lot about
strategy and you know, how you get things
working in your small group ministry.
And, uh, part of one of our things
is we've set a goal that by the
close of 2025, we want to have
all the different components that
we've mapped out, uh, in place.
So lofty goal, uh, but
we hope we can make it.
Derek Olson: Very nice.
Great insight.
And here we are in 2025.
Now we're looking ahead
to the year that we'll be.
And in this episode, we are talking
about four steps to a strategic 2025.
Love that title.
And, uh, Steve, you're going
to outline the four key steps.
Um, so let's start off with number one.
It's, uh, to plan.
Um,
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
Yeah.
And part of what we want to do
is, uh, you know, it sounds very
elementary and all these steps on sound
elementary, but you'd be surprised
at how many people don't do it.
And so one of the things, uh,
you know, uh, that can happen.
And I've seen this a lot in churches
post COVID is that COVID shut your church
down and on the refire of the church.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sometimes you forgot to do some of
the things that you always did before.
And in the same way I've been at
Saddleback so long, there's things
that I've said or I've done in the
past that I've totally forgot about.
But one of the things that inspired
the shows, uh, you know, sometimes
when you're, uh, getting reminders,
On, uh, what, what you've said or
what you've done through social media.
Uh, they're, I came across something
from 15 years ago that, you know, on
this date kind of reminded me and it's,
it's, it's the impetus of what, you
know, kind of drove the show to be what
it is, but it was on Twitter, now X.
Uh, but this is the quote that I wrote
down and you know, I'm at that age
right now that I, you know, there's many
things that I read about what I've done.
I reread my own books and I go, Oh
my gosh, I wonder who said that.
And it was me.
Uh, but it says great
is hitting the target.
Nobody else can.
Now here's the punchline
genius is hitting the target.
That nobody can see.
And the beauty about the kingdom work
that we're doing is we want to, we want
to see the unseen, uh, Hebrews chapter 11.
We want to be able to be so in sync
with where God's going that we're
putting some things in motion.
that, you know, that there'll
be that alignment between temple
courts and house to house.
So that kind of sets up the whole show.
And the first thing that, as
Derek was saying about is you've
got to put a plan in place.
Now, in order to put a plan in place,
you got to know, just, I would encourage
you to do some, just some good review.
And in the review, I would go
through some different steps of
saying, What's the end in mind?
What are we trying to
produce in our small groups?
And just kind of get that back
in front of you and make sure
you know what's happening.
Uh, in that, what's our
pathway to get to that?
You know, when a group first forms,
what's that plan that gets them to
start to emulate the end in mind?
And then looking at the guardrails that
are in place to make sure that happens.
So what are, what are some of the
processes that we have in place?
Like in leader training, re review
your own leader training, look at it.
Sometimes you need to go through
your own stuff to make sure that
what you've created is still in sync.
What's your curriculum pathway that
you've designed for your people?
And then, you know, what are some of
the tools that you've put in place?
You know, have you readapted
to what technology can do?
Are you engaging a lot with AI and
help and using that to help you?
So those are some of the processes.
And then the people, you know, in
the people, you know, How is your
infrastructure helping you stay
in touch with your group leaders?
How are you mentoring them?
How are you discipling them to help
them be models of that end in mind?
And, you know, in that you're
going to need a lot of good data.
And we talked a lot in
past episodes about.
a CRM system, a customer
relationship management system
that helps you understand both
the soft data and the hard data.
And then what are those processes
that you're using to get, you
know, people connected into
groups and looking through those.
So as you're building your plan, do
a little review of all of the pieces
that, uh, that I've talked about.
But then I would also encourage you,
uh, I wrote a book that's, uh, the
link is in the show notes called
planning small groups with purpose.
And in that I wrote 20 questions
that no matter what your end in
mind is, If you're doing small
group ministry, those 20 questions
are going to wash up on your shore.
And what you're going to find out is
that everything I just talked about is
peppered throughout those 20 questions.
But the first thing you've got to do
is you've got to start a plan in place.
And the thing that I like about planning
is that it really is a step of faith.
When you, um, put something on the
calendar, a goal that you have in
the calendar is a step of faith
that you're saying, God, by your
best ability, help me hit that.
And that's what we've done as we've
looked through 2025, where we've,
we've mapped out some big rock things.
That we want to accomplish, uh,
throughout 2025, there's some medium
rocks and there's some, some small
rocks that, you know, each one of our
various campuses are kind of working on.
So I would just encourage you is that
you've got to have a plan in place to, uh,
make sure that you are putting goals in
place and you're putting accountability,
uh, I mean, accountability is the next
thing you're putting goals in place
so that your plan can be effective.
Derek Olson: Yes, number
one is plan, plan, plan.
Hey, Steve, maybe just take one more
quick minute to talk about the first
thing you said, which was, what kind of
disciple do you want to create in the end?
I remember when I first was onboarding
with you, that was the first question you
asked me is what kind of disciple do you
want to make for your Smuggart ministry?
And it was just kind of like, boof.
Steve Gladen: Yeah, it really is
something and basically the process
is thinking through if the person
next to you is in your small group.
What, what do they emulate if
you've done your job perfectly?
And I know none of us will,
we're in a fallen nature.
No one is going to be that perfect
disciple because only Jesus is the
perfect person that was on this planet.
But if you kind of play it out, what
would they, what would they exude?
What would they do?
And at Saddleback, we still fall back on
the five verbs in the great commission
and the great commandment as our people.
Benchmarks for that words are changing a
little bit to meet the next generation,
but the principles are still the same.
And so what I would encourage you to do
is kind of think through if that person
in your small group and your group
leader did what they were supposed to do,
what would that person be acting like?
And how would their behavior?
Be there because what you want to
be able to do is, uh, do big change
behavior and you always want to work
through somebody to not only just help
them learn it, but help them apply it.
So I don't know if that answered what
you were trying to go to, but that's
kind of like that piece right there.
Derek Olson: Well said.
Okay, you kind of leaked
number two, which, uh, it
evolves around accountability.
Take us to number two.
Steve Gladen: yeah, that's a little
bit of fogginess in the new year.
So, you know, the, the lifts this
kind of flow all around the place.
Yeah.
After you have a plan, the number two
really is you need accountability and.
It's something that seems so elementary,
but if you don't have somebody that
is working with you, I'm working
with, you know, the people that are
in upstream of me that are helping
hold me accountable to saying,
Hey, this is what we need in place.
And when are you going to put it in
place by, and I do it, you know, to
each one of our 20 campuses, trying
to be able to say, you know, Hey,
what are your plans and goals and
what do you want to try and accomplish
in this first quarter of this year?
Uh, but you in, in accountability,
it's not so much me.
dictating what they should do.
I was just with one of our, uh,
campuses and, um, talk to them saying,
you know, with what we've got planned
in the first quarter between, uh,
the immersed study with Luke Axe.
And our dream now churchwide
campaign coming up, you know,
what, what is your goal for groups?
And this is with one
of our newer campuses.
That's just starting out because you'll
never get this perfect time of a lot of
emphasis on groups in the, in the year.
And, and like so many people, they, they
usually come back and they say, um, well,
what do you think is the right goal?
And, and the process, the thing that you
want to do is have a process with the
person that's holding you accountable.
When you're holding accountability,
something, you're not saying
what they should do, but you're
helping them wrestle with.
And I said, Hey, I need you and your
campus pastor to go back and figure
out what do you think you should do?
You've got to, you've got to lean
into God and you've got to be able
to say, okay, what is it that, uh,
the Lord would want us to strive for?
It's not just trying to go to hit the
target that, you know, nobody else
can, but it's about hitting the target.
No one can see.
And.
You may have, God may be leaning something
a little bit different on each one of
our campuses that I don't even see.
And that, you know, as they're
praying, they're seeing it
with God and the Holy spirit.
And so part of this is the accountability
structure is with no accountability.
You probably, your plans are
just not going to happen.
I have found that I can't
hold myself in accountability.
because I like to cheat on myself and
I like to, you know, uh, you know,
give myself grace and stuff like that.
And the other thing that sociologists
have told us is that when you speak
a goal to somebody else, then that
accountability sits deeper in your heart
and is also, you know, that somebody else
is knowing, like if I told Derek, you
know, this is what we want to accomplish
in this first quarter in small groups.
When I know when I see Derek.
and I know him well enough that
he'll say, Hey, how's it going?
And you know, there's that part of
like going, Oh, I've got a, I've
got a, you know, I've got to own
up to whether I hit it or I didn't
hit it and why and stuff like that.
So I would encourage you to get some
accountability with other people.
And this is people who aren't going to be
like doing electroshock treatment with you
if you miss your goal, but they're going
to be people that are going to be able to
encourage you and just hold you with that.
Uh, I would do that with
some people on staff.
And I would do that with people
that are outside the church.
And, um, so it's a,
it's just a good system.
So number one, you need a plan,
uh, but plans only succeed if
you have some accountability.
So make sure you get that person, tell
them, just tell them what some of your
goals are for, for this Q1 or this first
quarter in 2025 so that you can, uh,
have some accountability that is there.
Derek Olson: Love it.
Accountability, accountability on the
number three, which we didn't leak yet.
Um, I'll let you say it, Steve.
What is number three?
Steve Gladen: Yeah, the third thing
is, is to, uh, establish a prayer
team and so often, um, you know, this
is the trite answer that really does
happen inside of, um, uh, the church
world, but really it is one of the
most powerful things you can have.
Um, When I wrote planning small
groups with purpose, I always
broke it into four things.
You know, what is, um,
what's a dream that you have?
What are the obstacles that are going
to be confronting you in that dream?
What's an action plan you want to do?
And when do you want to review it?
And the reason why a prayer team is
so important that if you do planning,
right, In the planning process, you're
going to be, you know, identifying
all kinds of obstacles that are there.
One of the common ones that I get when
I talk to other churches is my, my
pastor, uh, doesn't push groups enough
or isn't as excited about groups as I am.
Well, one of the things, if you're
trying to accomplish your goals,
one of the obstacles is going to
be them seeing the same heart and
passion for groups that you see.
And so guess what your prayer
team does your prayer team.
This isn't, you know, in an
antithetical little group of people
out there that are just praying for
you and oh God, you know, help their
small group ministries to succeed.
But your prayer team is praying
about very, very specific things
because behind every one of the
plans that you put in place.
are going to be obstacles.
And when you identify those obstacles,
then you know your prayer team knows this
is what exactly what I'm praying for.
These are the pieces that I'm doing and
and it can be very exciting because then
they can follow up with you too and be
a form of accountability, but also a
form of excitement that they're praying
for your best excitement to happen.
You know, I've got some things that, uh,
I don't want to quite share them on the
airwaves right now, but the, you know,
that are very, you know, personal to what,
how I know groups will be more effective
at Saddleback and my prayer team knows
these are the things you're praying for.
Now your prayer team are people
that can hold things in confidence.
Um, obviously if you're gossiping or
if you're going to hurt yourself or
you're going to hurt somebody else,
they're going to break the confidence.
But the, the, the point is, these
are not people that are trying to
be your prayer team so they can know
the latest scoop of what's happening.
in the world of your church.
But these are people who genuinely
just care about praying and letting
God and letting God's power break
down the things that the enemy
is trying to stop from happening.
So I really would encourage you.
You don't have to have a huge prayer team.
You can have a very small prayer team, but
you need the right people that will pray.
Now your job in working with a prayer
team is not just recruiting them,
um, but also making sure that you're
feeding them the things that you need.
So this is why, this is why if you do
the planning first and figure out what
you want to do and in that planning
process, when you read planning small
groups with purpose, uh, again, the
link is in the show notes, but when you,
uh, start to do the planning process,
your dreams are going to be there,
but you're identifying the obstacles.
And when you're identifying the obstacles,
then you can magnify the power of your
prayer team by seeing, you know, by so
that they can start to pray for the, the
things that the enemy is trying to block.
So if you really want to unlock 2025,
like I know you do and I do, and Derek
is already wanting to also is that you
not only need to do the things that
are in your power, which is planning
and having accountability there,
but you also want to pull together.
to have a prayer team in place so
that the supernatural can happen
in a special way so that you can,
you know, make things happen.
Derek Olson: Prayer is powerful, even
if it's, uh, your grandma on your prayer
team and she knows how to pray and
she's going to keep your confidence.
That's good enough, right?
Steve Gladen: I tell you, it'd be perfect.
There's, I mean, many people have said,
you know, the power of a mom praying or
a grandma praying is, you know, they,
they, they got some special wiring
in them that can make that happen.
Derek Olson: Awesome.
Well, that saves, uh, number four and
that is review where you are at quarterly.
So interesting.
We're talking about four
steps to a strategic 2025.
And now Steve, you're telling
us to review where you're at.
Tell us more about that.
Steve Gladen: Yeah, and this is where
I would encourage you is in the review
process, it's going to be important to,
um, do some focus groups with people
that are in the trenches doing it, i.
e.
small group leaders or
even small group members.
Uh, maybe the people who are helping
you manage your small groups.
or even the people in, in your team
that are helping you implement it.
And the, the piece that can go with
this is understanding that you don't
have to have a million focus groups,
but you do need to have a little
reality check for what's happening.
And I want to read to you, uh, what we
call the four helpful lists, because
this will help you in everything
that you're trying to implement.
So let me use you, use an example.
Um, if one of your goals is, uh,
you know, getting your, your,
training, uh, dialed in so that
it's a, it's a lot more fruitful.
You may have said from this podcast,
Hey, our end, our training isn't
getting us to our end in mind, then what
you'd want to do is maybe do a focus
group with some of your small group
leaders, uh, Maybe a couple people in
the, in small groups to find out, you
know, is what we're trying to train?
Is it happening in your groups?
And then maybe some of the people that
are working on top of it or working on it.
And so the four helpful lists are what's
right and basically those are the praises.
And sometimes Uh, and maybe you're
not like me, but, uh, I tend to always
gravitate to what's broken, what's
wrong, what's out of sync, what's out
of step and forgetting sometimes that
there's great praises that are happening.
Uh, when Derek was kicking off the
show, you know, and he's, he's talking
about, Hey, what is it in review
that, you know, you've learned from
small groups and sometimes you go,
Wow, we've made more headway than
I actually thought or remembered.
And so the first thing you want to do is
what's right and start on a positive note.
The next thing is asking
what's wrong and what's wrong.
What you're trying to find
out is what needs to change.
It may be a methodology in training.
It may be the medium in training.
It may be the trainer.
It may be the content.
It may be a lot of things
that need to change.
Okay.
But the point is, is that when you, when
you get some feedback from people, you can
find out not only what's right, because
That's what you get from the public.
Most people in church world, while
I take that back, I was going to
say, most people in church will
like to tell you what's right.
But you know, post COVID there's
always people that are willing
to tell you what's wrong.
Uh, so maybe that does come
up, you know, more naturally.
But the point is you want to get it
in an environment where you can digest
the, the actual things that are there.
So what's right, what are the praises,
what's wrong, what needs to change?
The other thing is what's confusing.
And that just needs clarity.
Sometimes they kind of grab a concept,
but it's just not as sharp as it could be.
Uh, one of the things that we found
out from training was that, um, we,
we talked a lot about having great
conversations, but we didn't give them
the tools to help develop conversations.
So they, they kind of knew
what they were supposed to do.
Uh, but we found out that things
weren't happening quite as well
as we wanted them to be happening.
Um, And so we just needed to get some
clarity and have to work right there.
The other thing, the last question
is what's missing and in what's
missing, it's what needs to be added.
And so there may be, it may be a gap in
something that you thought was there or
was clear, uh, but it really wasn't there.
And so it may need to be something
that's added that you're looking at.
So, As you're looking and you're
planning strategically in the
reviewing process, what you want
to do is pick some components.
that you're trying to
employ, put in place.
So when you're looking at a goal that
you've set for the first quarter of 2025,
you, at the end of the, at the end of
Jane, at the, at the end of March or at
the end of April, depending on how you're
dividing up the quarter, what you're
going to want to do is start to look
back on that one particular goal that
you put in place and go, what's right.
What were the praises with that goal?
What's wrong.
What needs to change.
What's confusing.
That means that what needs to
be clarified and then what's
missing, what needs to be added.
And so review is always so important
for you to understand how to
make progress with each thing.
And I know as we're looking
at these four steps, you know,
you can go, it's so tedious.
There's so much detail that's involved.
There's, you know, there's so much extra
things, but I will tell you, I mean,
I've been doing groups for like 35 years.
are longer than that.
Uh, which we, let's just go with 30, uh,
because it makes me feel a little bit
younger, uh, still about the age of 30.
Uh, but, uh, anyways, um,
yeah, I will tell you this.
It does, you know, small group
ministry distills down into that
four letter word called work.
And there is a lot of work
in trying to implement.
a plan, accountability, a
prayer team, and review.
It's a lot of work.
But if you're wanting to see people get
discipled and not fool yourself with
false false positives, because you know,
you go, how's group group is great.
You know, it's wonderful.
And we love everything.
The thing is, is that you're going
to have to get into that place.
where you're not just relying on hallway
conversations of group is good or
bad, or a lot of people are in group.
You mean, you may take attendance
every week and you find out, you
know, everybody's in group, but if
they're not producing what you want to
produce, then it's a false positive.
It's the same thing.
People come to church, but it
doesn't mean they're always
applying what they're hearing.
And so, but in groups, you have that
great, That great opportunity to have a
controlled environment where you can help
them move to where you want them to be.
So I pray that as we've gone through
these four steps, and as we in the
review part talked about the four
helpful lists, that you can use this
to help 2025 hit the goals That you're
wanting to do as we start this off.
We're here at January 2nd and you want
to take this and just pull it through
all the way through the next 364 days.
Derek Olson: Well, there we have it,
the four steps to a strategic 2025.
And if you are hearing this today
on January 2nd, you are getting
way ahead of the game, I think.
And so take these to heart.
Click the link in the show notes.
If you want to go into this even way
more in depth, get Steve's book, uh,
Planning Small Groups with Purpose, I own.
This book and it is a powerful roadmap
with all kinds of cool visuals That
make it just pretty easy to comprehend
And so, uh steve any last words?
Steve Gladen: No, I mean, I just
hope you guys will, uh, look at this
new year as a fresh, clean slate.
It's good to look back and see
some things, but a lot of times
we can harbor and stay in there.
But I want to encourage you to, uh,
seize 2025 in a special way so that
you can get discipleship happening in
your church as powerfully as possible.
Derek Olson: Couldn't have
said it better myself.
Well, thanks everybody for watching
or listening this to this episode
We really hope you enjoyed it.
We hope it encourages you and empowers
you to lead better healthier Small
group ministries and until next time.
Bye
Steve Gladen: See you later.
James Browning: Thank you for listening.
Don't forget to subscribe
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And to dive in deeper get more resources
or join the small group network just
head over to small group network.com.