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Becoming sustainably human at work isn't a small undertaking. It often means letting go of systems and behaviors that don't serve us individually or collectively.
So what do we do? As individuals, as groups of folks, as leaders? How do we carve out space for our humanity while making sure we're not the only ones? How do we thrive in the workplace while not imagining we must be superhuman? How do we cultivate spaces that are generative and healing, creative and extraordinary?
I don't have the answers to those questions. And, to be fair, I don't believe one human can EVER have all the answers to those questions. I'm working through those questions every day.
This podcast curates for you a set of folks with an opinion worth listening to and sharing. So join me as I ask people I admire to share their wisdom with you in accessible doses.
Join me on my quest to become sustainably human at work.
Welcome to What's Leadership?
My name is Liz Wiltsie.
And I believe we can be human at work.
So this podcast is an exploration
of how do we bring our
humanity into the workplace.
How do leaders cultivate spaces that
are generative, that are healing,
that are creative and extraordinary.
I don't have the answers
to those questions.
I'm working through those
questions every day.
But what this podcast does is curate for
you a set of folks with an opinion that I
believe is worth listening to and sharing.
So join me, as I ask people I
admire to share their wisdom
with you in accessible doses.
Join me as I ask What's Leadership?
Hi everyone, today I get to
welcome a friend of mine and I'm
so excited for this conversation.
So, without further ado I have Mara
Glatzel MSW, which is a masters
of social work is an intuitive
coach writer and podcast host.
Who helps perfectionists and people
pleasers reclaim their sovereignty.
Her superpower is saying what you
need to hear when you need to hear it.
And she is here to help you believe in
yourself as much as she believes in you
find out more at maraglatzel.com which
we will have all sorts of links for
you in all of the notes for this show.
So, Mara, thank you so
much for being with me.
I love your work and, yeah.
Thank you.
I'm really excited to be here with you.
Yay.
So you work on, reminding people that
they can have needs, and sometimes
that is new information, right?
Yeah.
Well, especially, you know, I think that
even if we can believe that we're allowed
to have needs, the needs that we allow
ourselves in that situation are very few.
So it's like, You know, level
one, am I allowed to have needs?
Level two, I am allowed to have
needs, but only these ones.
And oftentimes those are ones that make
people more productive or, like somehow
fit a beauty ideal or, or, or, or right.
The needs that make you "better",
more patient, more loving,
better partner, better mom,
better worker, more productive.
And, what I'm really interested in
are like the needs outside of that.
Because I think that so much of the
self care industry is targeting us
towards like life hacks and fancy
outfits that, are building us up
to just make us better producers.
And, I'm not interested in that really.
I'm much more interested in,
you know, Mary Oliver calls this
a soft animal of your body and
letting it love what it loves.
And that's really the
realm where my work is.
I want to know what makes people
feel whole, what makes you feel held?
What makes, what lights you up and,
really work on reconfiguring in your
relationship with yourself, whatever
needs to be reconfigured, so that you're
allowed to have that too, because so
often, too often, that that realm is
really, like the frivolous extra, you
know, maybe on a good day or when I
retire, I'll have time for that thing.
And that's the thing that's
missing from so many of our lives.
So I work to kind of restructure
how we think about what we need and
expand that definition so that it
includes some of those things that we
may not have been allowing ourselves
because they don't make us better in a
specific way, as in for somebody else.
Yeah, I think about that constantly
because you look around and you go, Hmm.
So much of what you see is like, how
can you get more hours in the day?
How can you, do things faster than,
you know, the speed of light so
that you can be better, inside sort
of systems of oppression, right?
Rather than saying, you know, I've said to
people this week, if you are asking people
who work for you to work 80 hours, but
then you're telling them they can meditate
and you gave them a gym membership.
I'm like, that's not
actually solving the problem.
Like, why are we this sort of, I think
there's always that line of individual.
I need to get my needs met and I
need certain things to be different.
Yeah.
Do you find that as well?
Yeah.
Well, and I think, you know, I like
to think about this a lot and I have
a very small business it's myself
and a few people who work with me.
And I think about this even in
my own business, it's like, what
space am I providing for my needs?
You know, as the leader of this
small operation, how am I showing
that both that's necessary and
also that there's time for that.
And how am I creating that space for
the people that I work with so that, you
know, the whole business is functioning
and this kind of like pro-human way
and things get done slower things.
Things are not, you know, I mean, there's.
You have to kind of like be
within that in a certain way.
Like managing your own disappointment or
your own feelings about what should be
your, you know, but how important that is
and how that really comes from the top in
an organization and, and passes down to
all of the people who are working there.
Because in my work I find a lot
of people who say, I just judge
myself this harshly, you know,
I'm much kinder to everyone else.
Which I kind of categorically
think is bullshit when we're
hard, hard on ourselves.
We are hard on other people, even
if it's just privately or we try to
suppress it because we think that's
not how we're supposed to feel
or how we're not supposed to be.
So, you know, when.
When we can work on ourselves and we can
work on what we allow ourselves, then
it, it opens us up to accepting that kind
of human imperfection, all that kind of
stuff from the people around us as well.
Yeah.
I also agree that it's a bullshit.
Well, and I've seen it.
I'm sure you've seen it as well.
What happens, in organizations and
families and whatever, when like the
person with kind of the most power
recognizes that they are also allowed
to be human, then like suddenly the
other people around them can also be.
Mind you, there are some, there are
some folks that don't bring the rest
around that are like, I can have needs.
And I would like all of you to be
up all night long, meeting my needs.
Thank you.
But like, in a lot of ways, if people
have really struggled with it, you see
that sort of like domino effect really
Well, and you see.
You know, I, as a naturally ambitious
person, I am obsessed with how we can
both do the things that we want to
do while also getting our needs met.
And what I find is it's not going to look
the same every single day of the year.
Our energy is, you know, there's a
rhythm and a cycle to our energy.
And the more that we understand about
how our energy works over the course
of the calendar year, what we need
specific to the seasons, and all of
that, then it's not that we're able
to produce more, but we're able to
produce with, with much less resistance.
And so a lot of that, it's like
not only do I allow myself to have
needs or not, like how can I shift
how I understand showing up in my
life to check in with myself before
I check it with my to-do list.
And what happens when I am actively
rebuilding the self-trust necessary
to know this is not going to be a real
big work day for me, but that's okay.
Because tomorrow, you know what I mean?
That, that it kind of all
comes out in the wash.
Because what I found is so often
we're like white knuckling, this
idea of like, I have to get it done
because what if I don't, if I rest,
I'm never going to get back up.
if I take a day off, if I take a moment,
if I go for a walk, I'm never gonna, you
know, it's, it's all gonna fall apart.
And so we have so much to unlearn
and so much is possible when
we do kind of walk some of that
back and realize like, wow, okay.
I am a human, not a robot.
My energy is not this huge problem.
I can look outside my door and while
you're in LA, but I'm in Massachusetts.
There are seasons here.
You know, we don't have them here.
You can see like, okay, the
tide goes out, the tide comes
in the moon waxes and wanes, the
seasons change, like so to do I.
And that you're able to get at least
as much done as you did before in a
way that's much more beneficial and
happier with less resistance for you
when you allow for more of that into
your life and stop thinking like,
okay, I'm going to hold myself to my
very best standard every single day.
It's like, you know, one day last month
I woke up raring to go and tackled
all these things on my to-do list.
Now that becomes the barometer that
I hold myself to every day when
like, not every day is like that.
That's, I'm going to
fail every single time.
If that's the barometer
I'm holding myself to.
So there's so many of these internal
kind of reconfigurations that can happen
that I think impact us personally,
and also impact organizations that
we're operating within, especially
if we're in leadership posititions.
Well, and you mentioned the, sort
of, seasonality and the moon and yes,
LA doesn't really have them here.
We have a moon.
but, but I also think about, we
were talking about daylight, right?
Like, and the idea that for me,
really being able to look at when
my brain can do certain things.
Has been really helpful to be, to
line that up with my actual calendars.
And then also to be like, okay, today
we might not be getting stuff done.
We're gonna nap about it.
Instead of like, again, that sort of
white knuckling that you're talking about.
That's like, I've got
to sit at my computer.
I've got to stare at my computer
with nothing instead of just like,
maybe we'll try again tomorrow.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah, for me, it's amazing to notice
like the way the seasons kind of like
collapse and the moon and the day
kind of collapse into each other.
I can see how my best work
time of day is the morning.
My best time of year is the
spring season from the spring
Equinox to the summer solstice.
And you know, my best kind of
like time to get things done is
also like in that space between.
The waxing moon and the full moon.
So when I start to understand
things like that, about my life, I
am able to get so much more done.
And during that phase, that's, you
know, three months season this spring,
even with the pandemic, I wrote a book.
Which was kind of hard to do with my
kids at home and all of that, but really,
like I had known I was going to do that
in November and I was like building up
the energy, you know, through the winter
season, into that spring so that I could
use it for a really specific purpose,
because I know that's like my, my time.
My self belief is the highest.
My energy is the highest.
Things just click for me.
And so the more, obviously I'm an
entrepreneur, so I can do this,
but the more that I'm able to give
myself my hardest work during times
that are optimal to me, I get things
done with so much less stress than
I used to like slogging through.
I mean, I refer lovingly to
December into January as the
season of self doubt in my life.
It's not an opportune time
to try to do something new.
I did that many times it hurt.
It was a struggle many times.
And I was like, I just
don't do that anymore.
And the more that we know about ourselves,
the more that we can, you know, think
about how to do the things we want to do
in a way that works for us specifically.
Yeah.
And I think about it in terms
of organizations as well.
Right.
where the idea that, you know, I can't
walk in and say, okay, I'm only gonna do
this in these moments without having a
really big conversation with everybody
else, because I firmly firmly believe
that those puzzle pieces can line up.
If you take the time to get them to
line up and get out of the idea that
everyone's gotta be answering email.
Everyone's gotta be doing strategy.
Everyone's gotta be doing great.
You know, whatever, whatever the things
are that in your job description,
it says I'm supposed to do X, Y,
Z, and whatever, like mix it up.
Mix it up and say, okay, you
know, Mara is a spring person.
I'm a fall person.
I don't know.
I've never, I think about it on the day.
I don't know annually,
but I'm kind of excited.
But I'd imagine I'm probably
also a spring, right.
But there are people who are fall.
So get the fall people in the fall,
get the spring, people in the spring,
get the morning people in the morning
and let the evening people do that.
Like take turns.
Yeah, that's, that's where I think
the wisdom of the collective, which of
course for me comes out of, abolition
and studying, you know, black feminist
thought, around, we can, we can get our
needs met as a collective much better
than imagining we have to go it alone.
Well, and I think that that piece,
you know, and where my work really
takes place is in that space of like,
I don't even know what I would ask
for if I would ask for something.
And it's tricky because sometimes
it's like, is this, is this work
just kind of like navel gazing and
like becoming obsessed with myself.
But yes.
And also, you know, when we have that
crystal clear idea of what we need and how
we best operate, which takes some figuring
out, then we're able to bring it into
our organizations and share it in such
a way that, you know, it starts to make
these shifts and in the people around us.
And, you know, then we can see,
okay, well, you know, if a lot of
us are spring people, but not many
of us, our fall people, like maybe
we don't do our big, you know, like
donation drive in the end of November.
Like who does that work for?
It wouldn't work for me.
If I worked for an organization,
I'd be like, can we just be
doing this, like in the spring?
Right.
yeah, that's great.
First of all, nobody else is
doing it, maybe, or less people.
But you can see how that starts
to shift shift organizations.
And when you, when you.
Hmm, unravel that idea that we're
all supposed to be these perfect
robots showing up with, you know,
exactly the same capacity every
single day, 365 days a year.
Then what you opened the door to is
this idea of like, how can we operate
together in such a way that the needs
of the organization or the company are
being met on the annual year, in a way
that's creative and actually supports
the people who are working here.
And I believe if you actually
optimize that stuff, the
workday gets shorter, right?
And, and people go home with energy to
spare, which I think a lot of us, and I
do think in terms of entrepreneurs, we're
very good at treating ourselves badly.
Because we replicate everything we've
ever learned from anybody else, right?
Like, yeah, I can work
all the hours, sure.
That's amazing how quickly you
become your own worst boss and be
like, who designed this schedule?
Why, why did I do this to myself?
I have control.
I think so my other question for
you is what are you grappling with?
Hmm, what am I grappling with?
So, I have, I have, determined in my
mind that this season of self-doubt,
as previously described like the winter
months, are going to be rebranded
this year as my like winter glow up.
Meaning I'm going to take those months
that are actually quite shitty for work
and repurpose them for my own purposes.
And you know, it's funny cause it's
always like I have so much to do.
I have so much to do.
So what I'm grappling with
right now is reckoning with
the fact that I actually don't.
Like, that's a story that I
don't have that much to do that I
definitely have, you know, whatever
30 minutes or an hour per day, to
do something that's nice for me.
And so how, I'm kind of thinking
about doing that cause like, thinking
about it on the whole, like for the
whole season seems really daunting.
So I've been thinking, taking it like
one day at a time and waking up and
being like, how am I going to, like,
what am I going to give myself today?
Keeping in mind, like a couple of things
that really like make that work for me,
one of which is moving my body, which
always is like, the last thing on my list.
You've been having dance parties with
yourself, I've seen them on Instagram.
I have, I have, yeah, that really helps.
I've been having kids
parties with my kids too.
My daughter is like obsessed with Pink.
So I made her like a whole
Pink and actually my partner's
obsessed with Pink too.
So I made them like a whole Pink playlist
and we've been dancing altogether.
So that's like one that,
that, you know, it's like just
figuring out how to make it work.
But what I know that I want is to
spend this season really nourishing
myself, because it's been a long
year and I am aware that 2021 is
going to be a really big year for
me personally and professionally.
So, you know, I want to spend
this time really giving to myself
and, and really honoring the fact
that this is like a shitty time
for me to do forward facing work.
And it's actually a brilliant time
for me to like cook delicious food,
jump on my trampoline, go for walks
outside and like take awesome showers.
So I'm going to be doing that.
Perfect.
That's beautiful.
That is a beautiful end.
Thank you, Mara.
I appreciate it.
Thanks for having me.
It was awesome.
You just heard me and Mara talk about
the importance of getting of solid
handle on your own ebbs and flows.
And what's exciting is that Mara has
already got a program that takes you
through her process and it's called Cycle.
Join cycle to cultivate deliciously
doable goals, map out your seasonally
specific self care protocol, nourish
your ambition and stay connected with
your vision for your life all year long.
You can actually join Cycle all year.
But there is a winter solstice
gathering on December 19th.
So if you join before then you'll
get to be a part of that celebration.
For full show notes and links to all of
Mara's work, visit 4needs.work/ podcast.
While you're there, you can also check out
the other episodes in What's Leadership?
And if you like them, subscribe,
come talk to us on social media.
We'd love to hear from you.