Building and Scaling Successful Sales Teams | EP17 | Richard Bounds

Building & Scaling Successful Sales Teams

Sales leaders and ambitious reps, this one’s for you! In this episode of I Used to Be Crap at Sales, Mark Ackers sits down with Richard Bounds, a seasoned sales leader and fractional CRO, to unpack the biggest challenges in scaling sales teams, hiring top talent, and driving sustainable sales growth.

Richard shares hard-earned lessons from over 35 years experience in sales, leading and coaching sales teams at companies such as IBM, OpenText, and Software AG. Learn why fractional sales leadership is gaining traction in the startup world and how sales leaders can make a real impact. Discover the biggest hiring mistakes sales leaders make, how to spot bad hires fast, and why company culture beats experience when building a team.

We also dive into the evolution of sales leadership, from old-school “work harder” mentalities to today’s data-driven, AI-powered coaching approaches. If you’re an aspiring sales leader, Richard’s insights on avoiding first-time leadership mistakes and building a high-performing team will be game-changing.

 

Tune in to learn:

• How to scale a sales team without ruining company culture

• How fractional sales leaders accelerate growth as quickly as possible, and how Richard measures success

• The biggest mistake sales leaders make when hiring

• How modern sales coaching transforms performance

• How AI and data are reshaping the sales landscape

What is I Used To Be Crap At Sales?

Even the most prominent voices in Sales were crap at Sales once.

Join bestselling Author, Founder and Sales Coach Mark Ackers as he speaks with successful Sales professionals about their early Sales struggles, and how they overcame these challenges to become the people they are today.

We're going to focus on the lessons for sales leaders and
aspiring leaders as well, emphasizing on growth resilience
and creating a lasting impact. The former regional vice

president for UK and I for open text, former sales leader
for companies like software, AG, box, it and IBM, did you
used to be crap at sales? But to be on the podcast, I have

to say, Yes, I think I was and how crap were we talking on a
scale of one to 10, I think four. But even as a salesperson,
I didn't know anything else other than just rig. More

people, speak to more people, work harder. I've done well in
IBM, for example, I had a couple of promotions in five or
six years. Had a massive multi million target selling, sort

of 15, 20 million type deals. Let's talk about fractional
leadership. How do you ensure that you're gonna have a long
term impact as a fractional sales leader? So you've got to

balance having a short term impact and getting results
quickly. It's a mix of being very, very hands on,
particularly the role at box it was where I did that. How

quickly for you, when you've hired someone, can you work out
if you've made a mistake or not month. In those cases,
they're not adding to the team those people, and they're not

driving the team forward. If you feel it after a month that
it's wrong, put some tests in place, put some measures in
place that you can monitor it more closely. I think there's

been a bit of a shift away from training and like a one size
fits all. I don't think it's moving the needle, they'll
forget 90% of it within a fortnight. What do you think the

biggest misconception companies, sales leaders have around
coaching, that it's a bit wooly and theoretical. They're
doing it already. 90% of sales leaders think that they coach

their teams regularly, and only 38% of sellers get regular
coaching. What's the biggest mistake you see first time
sales leaders making, and how can they avoid it? So I think,

hello and welcome to another episode of the ISP craft that
sales podcast. I'm your host, Mark Akers, the co founder and
Head of Sales here at my sales coach. We call the podcast

that, because it's true, and all of our guests say the same.
Today, I'm joined by the founder of leaps and a fractional
sales leader for many organizations, the former regional

vice president for UK and I for open text, former sales
leader for companies like software, AG, box, it and IBM and
a my sales coach, coach whose mission is to help improve

sales performance for both individuals and teams. My guest
today is Richard bounds. This episode is going to dive into
Richard's extensive experience in building scaling and

leading sales teams. We're going to look at his insights
into fractional leadership and his philosophy on coaching as
key to sustainable sales success. We're going to focus on

the lessons for sales leaders and aspiring leaders as well,
emphasizing on growth, resilience and creating a lasting
impact. Richard, there is your introduction. Great to have

you in the city of Newcastle and on the podcast. Welcome.
Thank you very much. Thanks for the hospitality and great to
be in in Newcastle, and amazing introduction as well. Yeah,

thank you. Guests always say that that's a good intro, but
it's just like, this is just who you're LinkedIn, that's
always slightly beefed up anyway, isn't it? But it's

fantastic. You tell me, Richard, I understand you've been to
Newcastle a number of times. I have. I came here as a kid to
watch Newcastle play football, and then my stepdaughter went

to uni in Newcastle, so I must have been here like five or
six times. You're right below, beside the street of all the
bars, aren't you, so I know that street better than this

street, yeah, yeah. Well, it's great to have you here. In
terms of the podcast today, we always start with an opening
question, right? Richard. Let's just get straight into it.

Did you used to be crap at sales? Well, to be on the
podcast, I have to say yes. I think I was Yes. And how crap
are we talking on a scale of one to 10, one being my god, I

was so bad. What would you score yourself? I think four.
Okay, it's not, it's not a terrible number. When I realized
I was crap, I'd been selling for about four or five years,

and I'd actually done quite well, it was only when I moved
up to a sales management position, and the market changed,
certain other things changed, and I realized it was tough.

It wasn't just about working harder. I'd always been sort of
brave, had good attitude, would ring anybody, and wasn't an
idiot, I don't think, and people seemed to quite like me,

but I kind of realized there was a lot more to it than that,
when things just became a bit more complicated. And that's
the moment, I suppose. Let's start there. It sounds like you

had a moment when you realized you were crap. You've been in
sales for you, say, four years. At that point, what happened
for you to realize I'm crap at sales? I joined an apple

dealership. So it was when they were called Apple centers,
and we were primarily selling to corporates. I was much
younger than anybody else they'd taken on before, so they

took a bit of a leap of faith with me. Joined at 21 they
asked me at 24 to be the sales manager. I was the youngest
in the team of about 11. And then the market just changed

completely. Overnight, anybody and everybody could sell Max,
and the margin went from high 20s to sort of low teens. The
commissions scream. Had to change dramatically. People were

quite disgruntled. Deals were.

Harder to come by. It's very, very competitive, and I think
all I just told people to do is just work harder, make more
calls, speak to more people. And there's just bit more to it

than that. And that's when I realized that I had more to
learn. That feels like that's you saying you were crap at
sales management, not sales, I suppose so, yes, but even as

a salesperson, I didn't know anything else other than just
ring more people, speak to more people, work harder. That's
obviously been my, a big ethic of mine anyway, throughout my

career, is that, you know, the harder the work, the lucky
you get, and things of that sort. I think that is true for a
lot of people that have been successful in sales up until

the point are those that work the hardest. They say, like
people say sales in the numbers game. But equally, if you
make $1,000 compare someone that makes 10 numbers will come

in, come into your favor being prior to the age of 24 being
the youngest person on the team as well. That's really
interesting. Why do you think they picked you to be the

manager at that age? It was interesting one because I think
we were a company. We had maybe 12 sales people, 50
employees, something of that type, two or three of the

better sales guys went to corporate computers, a big
corporate reseller that had got their rights to sell, sell
Max, and I was the top performer. So I was getting the best

results as an individual. There was a couple other people
who wanted the role. There was a lady who owned the
business, and she just came to me and asked if I would like

to do it. And I just said, yes, it's interesting. So it
feels like it was more than just the fact you're a good
sales person. She clearly identified some traits in you that

she felt would make for a good manager, because they're
obviously very different, and top performers get promoted,
but it doesn't make them a good manager. But as I say, seems

like she found some good characteristics in you as well that
she felt would make you a leader. Yeah, and I suppose to
your your point was I good a crap sales person or a crap

sales manager? I do think that I was a pretty average sales
manager at that point, because I didn't really understand
the sales process. Didn't necessarily know how people tick.

For example, someone wasn't performing, and this was a quite
a while ago. I was told to just put their stuff in a box and
meet them in the car park, and that's basically what I did,

the change in margins with the commission schemes and so on.
So we had to change from, I'd say, almost a commission only
scheme, to part basic part Commission, which I negotiated

with with her, but it was reducing people's salaries
dramatically. I think she suggested I just stand on a chair
and communicate it to the sales team in that way. And that's

what I did. And I look back now and think that's a terrible
way of dealing with that, that situation. Do you think part
of that was so I mean, at the age of 24 How are you know any

better? I just took her, her and the MDS guidance while they
shut the door, to be fair to it, just literally left you to
it. Yes, yeah. It feels really unfair. It probably was, when

you think about it. They wanted to know the feedback and so
on. But I think they wanted me to deal with it. They did
pick up some of the pieces. So some people had been working

there for 10 years plus in sales, and then they warranted
them, if that's the right phrase, you know, a conversation
on why it happened, and they gave those people rightfully

the time of day, because they given a lot of time and effort
to growing the business, and they deserved to have that
opportunity to speak to the owners, not just a 24 or 25 year

old sales manager. How old was the team that you said you
were the youngest? What was the age range that team probably
28 to about 54 so quite diverse. The guy that was 54 really

good guy. And there was another guy who was in his 40s. I
kind of worked with them as mini deputies, if you like. And
I really took their guidance on things from a very early

stage. I asked them team manage four or five guys, each one
of them set up a new division as well. We were trying to
expand in terms of PCs, servers and other other things as

well. So I felt that I tried to help them grow and develop.
And I really listened to what they had to say as well. So
yeah, it feels like you really started with batteries on a

fire in your management career. 2425 learning certainly the
hard way. I always like to ask for a howl. I want you to
kind of maybe separate from that, because we've heard that

story. When you look back over your sales career, it could
be as an individual contributor, could be as a manager
somewhere else, but everyone's got a funny story where they

just think, Oh, really, muck that up. Have you got a story
that springs to mind? Probably at the time, wasn't that
funny, but actually open text as maybe seven or eight years

ago, so I couldn't say it now, but the national grid network
operating center was almost evacuated because we were doing
these little videos in a box, and you open them up and it's

an animated video explaining what we did. Our marketing Time
Team sort of sent them everywhere. Blitzed, that's probably
the wrong term. Actually sent them everywhere to lots of

different companies. Our National Grid thought it was a
suspicious device. After realizing it wasn't, they contacted
us at quite a senior level, made quite a big fuss about it,

and I guess funny a bit was the lady of marketing was on a
short term contract, so she went pretty soon after that, but
her leaving gift was a video in a box that one of the team

did for her in the kind of the style of the office. And they
asked if I do a bit of a David Brent thing. I didn't do it
very well, but it was a really funny little video.

And we put that in a box and gave it to her, and it opened
up and just played. It's quite cool. She take it well. She
really took it quite well. Yeah, she liked it, I think,

yeah, it was five minute long. And the guy that did it does
drone videos. And it was, it was actually quite funny. Can
you do a good day of brain depression? No, I get the feeling

where to ask in terms of your career beginnings. You've been
in sales over 35 years. How did you first get into sales?
Was it by choice or chance? Well, I guess when I realized

about 10 I wasn't good enough to be a professional
footballer, I went to a careers advisor at 13. And I
actually, I think this is quite unusual for other people.

I've heard on this and other podcasts. I said I wanted to
sell second hand cars, and she said that I should set my
goals a little bit higher, and that perhaps I should be a PE

teacher. So not exclusively because of that, but I was
planning to become a PE teacher. I had a place at Nottingham
poly and so on, and I was going to go and do that. And then

during Sixth Form, I got a Saturday job selling TVs and
videos in Debenhams. I really enjoyed it. You'd queue at the
till at the end of the day, see who'd sold the most. And you

know, I was a spotty 16 year old coming in just for the
Saturday, and I was selling as much as their top performer,
Steve Gregory. I remember him really well to this this day.

I just really enjoyed that environment. The manager, he got
me on a commission scheme, which is unusual for a Saturday
boy. There's only a pound for every extended guarantee that

I sold, but it added up, considering I was probably on a
very, very small hourly rate and and I realized then that I
just wanted to be in in sales. So out of interest, why do

you feel like Stephen Gregory has remained in your mind? Was
there a moment where he was really helpful to you? He was a
really good guy. I'd actually met him because he used to

work at Dixon's, and I used to go into Dixon's on my lunch
break, which is going to make me sound quite sad, just to
look at what they had for sale, maybe listen a bit to how

they sold stuff. And I ended up speaking to him. He was
known to be a top dog at Dixon's, and the bosses at
Debenhams were keen to get him to come across. He came

across, and I still sold more than him nearly every
Saturday. And as I say, as a spotty kid, I mean, someone was
looking at a TV or video, I'd say, I'd go and see if we got

it in stock, and I'd come round of a big grin in the box and
just take them to the till. And that was my closing
technique. What I picked up already just in two stories you

shared with me is how you've embraced someone that's kind of
had what you want, achieved what you want. So we've got the
two older sales people in your previous job. You sort of

harness those other managers. Might have looked at those
older people and thought, they're gonna be trouble, they're
gonna be difficult to manage, but you actually brought them

in. I can learn from you. Teach me. Stephen Gregory works
next door. You're going next door. What is he doing? What is
he saying? Can we actually bring him into the organization

as well? Which is great, is that something you've always
done, like trying to learn from older people, it is a bit to
be fair, even at the Apple dealership, there was a guy who

was the most successful sales guy. And my very first day,
they sat me in the corner of a copy of Mac user. I noticed
this guy, Mark was the top sales guy. I asked if I could go

out with him. I had a really good day. I remember we went to
see elf in Knightsbridge and General Electric in
Hammersmith. He took me to Harrods for as much coffee as you

could drink for like five pounds, because we were a bit of a
bit of a weight. And then he took me to his local for a few
beers. And, I mean, if it is, he just told me and taught me

quite a lot about the importance of relationships, because
he'd sold contracts for this customer, and just made sure
they got what they wanted. And he really looked after that,

that customer, and you mentioned your dad was in sales as
well. Yes, I got massive respect for my dad. He sold
typewriters door to door and calculators door to door. That

was how he started, and then he ended up running quite a
successful sales training company, and was, you know, as a
good role model, as a father, but as a kind of sales person

and someone with great credibility. And, you know, people
have only got nice things to say about him as well. So he
had his own sales training business. Did you ever think

about working with him in partnership? No, why not. My dad's
style of sales training is probably different to what I
would feel more comfortable with anyway, and obviously he

finished that quite a few years ago, but he did sort of
classic classroom training, two week, intense courses,
three, five days, intense courses. And he's probably more of

a performer, I'd say, than I am, and he's a good speaker,
right? Okay, well, I'm hopefully not that bad, but he is a
good, good speaker, and how, where is he of what you're

doing now, like to talk about it a lot. To give you an
advice. It's funny when if I was playing tennis over my dad
ever when I was young, if he gave me any advice, as soon as

he would walk in the net, I'd go, here we go. And I wouldn't
really listen to him. But when I first started in sales, he
gave me a couple of real nuggets of advice that I would that

helped me massively, and I'd probably less give pass for
advice now, but I do still go to him as a sounding board,
certainly, and he knows I'm doing this and I.

Yeah, I expect you to listen, so I probably need to be even
a bit nicer than what I've just said. What's his name? John.
John, if you're listening, drop us a message. You say you

give you a couple of golden nugget pieces of advice I can't
ask. What were they? People tell you you can't do things
that's nonsense. Just crack ahead. There'll be negative

noise, and just focus on the positives. One I mentioned to
him the other day was, if someone leaves, be around their
desk, and I it always makes me smile as a sales leader, if

someone's left, I'll get a couple of sales people in the
team to open text. I couldn't. I'm not going to name the
names, but I know which ones will contact me within fewer

few minutes or an hour of somebody leaving saying, what's
happening with this account, what's happening with that
account, or I think I might be able to help you here. And it

just makes me smile, because that was the same advice my dad
gave me years ago in terms of, then your career. So you've
built and led some impressive sales teams, including, at one

point, you had over 30 AES reporting to you. What's the
biggest lessons you've learned about scaling sales teams?
Effectively, a big lesson is not rushing it, especially in

larger companies. You have maybe a limited time window when
head count is available, it might disappear. But I think
it's really critical just to get that the higher, right? The

person's got to add to what you've got already in the team
and improve it, not and make it worse. And when hiring,
particularly in a scale up mode, what's more critical hiring

for skill or cultural fit? I'd say cultural fit because, and
I would have said that's changed over my career. I think in
the past, I maybe would have looked more for for skill, for

track record, for experience or something similar. Whereas
now I think I'd be much keener. Some of these things would
be things I'd have hired for always. But enthusiasm drive

inquisitive. I've always looked for people that I'd buy off
myself, so people that are authentic and credible as well.
So I think some of the experience can be taught and

developed if the person's got the right attitude. How do you
assess all of that in an interview? Because the one thing
even crappy sales people are good at doing is selling

themselves in an interview. What's your method for trying to
weed people out in an interview process? I can't say that.
I've got this perfectly, but I think we I've got a tradition

of doing it quite well, and that's getting people to give
real life examples of where they've sold, to go through the
process in really fine detail and go through that as if it

were, you know, a one hour deal review, and really focus on
that in depth, you can see how they think About the selling
process, they actually understand why that customer brought

what they've said that's made a difference and and, you
know, maybe how it started, whether they've built a business
case, whether they understood the value of the deal, I think

that's really pretty imperative. And also getting other
people's perspectives as well. What percent of candidates
slip up at that stage in the interview? 40 ish, so I'd say

just less than half, a good chunk of people, though, yeah,
at that point drop out. So as a very experienced sales
leader and a fractional sales leader for lots of companies,

you'd have seen lots of sales leaders try and scale sales
teams. What's one of the what's one of the biggest mistakes
you see sales leaders make when trying to scout sales teams.

Well, I have seen people it feels like rushing the process a
little bit, particularly with what I was saying around head
count, perhaps disappearing, maybe concerns about candidates

disappearing. I think the hiring market is a little bit
easier now there's more choice and more people available, so
I think there is time to get it right. You know, I can think

of a couple of instances recently, I've also taken
referrals, which has always, for me, been a really sound
place to hire against, but a couple of those maybe didn't

feel quite right. I have hired a couple that didn't feel
right. I've tested my theory about maybe, were they quite
authentic enough? Would I buy from them? Because I wasn't

convinced that I actually would, and other people kind of
gave some reassurances. I'm not blaming other people,
because I've still got to make the decision, how quickly for

you, when you've hired someone, can you work out if you've
made a mistake or not? Month a month, I reckon, yeah. And
how long do you let it play out for? Probably too long, but

three, three to six, which is too long, I think, actually,
isn't it, when you know after a month. And I think the
mistake I perhaps made, I could see it now, is in those

cases, they're not adding to the team, those people, and
they're not driving the team forward. And I think, you know,
teams can be obviously, the old adage, isn't there as weak

as strong as its weakest link? And if you've got weak links
in the team, I feel they can bring the team down. And I know
that we've in that particular example, we've replaced with

new high energy individuals, and it's brought a new dynamism
to those teams, and results have improved as well. It's a
really interesting mindset. I've always believed that the

traits or behaviors or mindset of your weakest salesperson,
yeah.

Is basically the benchmark for everybody. Here's the thing
that I'm struggling with that I think a lot of people will
be, is, you might realize a month in, but how much of that

is? Got to give them a bit more time. Ramp time, you know,
is anywhere between 612, maybe 18 months. Or some
organizations, and, you know, in some companies, be even

longer. But how do you cope with that, because people can't
let people go after a month. Can they three to six even
that's awkward, because they're your person. You've hired

them. Like, what would your advice be to someone that
perhaps, this is podcast now they've got someone relatively
new in C and in their gut, they just think they're wrong.

Like, what advice would you give to them? It's going to
sound a bit harsh this, but I think I'd act on it earlier,
which I know doesn't necessarily always give the person the

opportunity. I think if you feel it after a month, that it's
wrong, put some tests in place, put some measures in place
that you can monitor it more closely and maybe not be

emotive about it and be completely logical. Yes, we all make
mistakes. I'd review it after that to you know, one or two
extra months, you have to give people a chance to prove

yourself. Right? Should you tell that person, after a month
or two months that you think you might have made a mistake?
You see how they react? Yeah, I'm not saying I have always

done that, but I actually moving forward and over the last
couple of years, I would do, yeah, how those conversations
normally play out, because surely, then, straight away

they're going to start looking for other jobs or start
acting differently if they are determined to prove you
wrong, and maybe they have got the right attitude, and

they're they do have that capability and desire then that
they'll prove you wrong. And that's a good thing, isn't it?
So I think the key then is you're what you're saying is, if

you feel they've hired the wrong person, don't drag it on.
Have a conversation with them. Put some stuff in place,
like, what? What kind of things can they put into place to

try and measure and track this? Well, I wouldn't necessarily
put them on a pip, but I think using kind of the structure
of some sort of plan that's got some measurable objectives,

whether it be number of meetings, dialogs with customers, do
some even some simple internal tasks, do a presentation back
to me or others of what the business proposition is and why

people should buy and make a positive impression on others
in the business. Because normally, if I'm thinking that
other people will be commenting that or seeing the same

themselves. Really valuable advice there. Richard, I think a
lot of people can be listening to that and have that feeling
about someone in their team and maybe not acting acting upon

it. You've obviously spent a lot of time in startups, scale
ups, major organizations as well, IBM, software, AG, etc.
How have you seen leadership in sales differ between those

environments, I think in the bigger the company, probably
the more time managing up than the smaller companies, and
the smaller companies I feel you can make as a sales leader,

a bigger impact. You can make more change, and you can get a
bit more just done in the business. So what do you prefer
then? Well, I've done well in corporate world, but I think I

prefer the smaller, more dynamic organizations again, where
just where you can have a big impact. You can see the
progress you're working with founders, you're making changes

in the business and really driving things forward, looking
to unlock your team's full potential. At my sales coach, we
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increases win rates by 30% and revenue by 7% whether you're
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sticks and delivers. Visit my sales coach.com, using the

link in the bio, and start achieving your goals today. When
you say you've done quite well, what are you what are you
referring to? When you say, I've done quite well in

corporate? What's your metric there? Well, I guess that I've
progressed my career. Well, I've

I've done well in IBM, for example, I had a couple of
promotions in five or six years. Selling, you know, had a
massive multi million target selling, sort of 15, 20 million

type deals. So I focused on IBM because I was less inclined
to be a manager there to focusing more on bigger deals and
bigger customer engagements. And then box it software, ag

and open text in each of those companies. I've been been
promoted in my time there, so I've obviously got to be doing
some things right, and I've done well against targets. So I

suppose they're the the obvious measure in sales, aren't
they? Absolutely? Yeah, some would say it's the only one,
the only one that counts on it, yeah, um, got to ask, what's

the biggest deal you've closed? Personally, the biggest one
personally, whereas in a IBM was 16 million right

annual up front? No, that was, to be fair,

probably would have been about four year deal. Over four
years, yeah, what percent commission we won?

Do you know? I honestly don't know. I can't remember, but I
Yeah, that would have been a big year. Yeah, how would you
have celebrated with a big payday like that? Do you know,

probably quite boringly, maybe a curry and a few beers.

That's quite disappointing.

I think maybe IBM there was a culture of sometimes doing a
few beers with with friends and stuff after work, but it
wasn't ever riotous or anything. You've also had a lot of VC

experience out on the board of VC backed companies as well.
How's that really that exposure to being part of a board for
VC backed companies sort of changed your perception on what

companies should be doing when it comes to growing and
scaling their teams, particularly the role at box it was
where I did that and we had a VC and lady that was on the

board there was excellent. She really helped with clarity of
vision for the business. I think the the chairman and chief
exec were really creative. Had lots of ideas, but we were

probably chasing too many things. And the VC was very
supportive of me trying to steer the company in a direction
of having several go to market plays with business cases

against them, and aligning the business behind that. And she
backed that fully, as to be fair, did the other board
members. And they gave me remit to write a blueprint for the

business, and we moved the for the business forward. On that
perspective the owners gave me, well, I'm not a marketing
person or have particular marketing expertise, but they gave

me the rights to rebrand. We did the website completely. I
was sat at home in the evenings, rewriting the website. But
really good opportunity to get involved in lots of different

things, not just the kind of the deals and sales part. Let's
talk about fractional leadership. Fractional leadership
becoming really popular lots of networking events. When I

meet people, they tell me they're fractional, fractional
CRO, fractional CFO, etc. What's the value? Value you've
seen in the fractional model, especially for startups and

scale ups. I think of it if you're buying anything, and I
think this is customers who are buying complex, technical
solutions. Of as an individual, you want least risk, best

value for money, and you want some degree of flexibility,
and you want the best, really good service. And I genuinely
think, well through be anyway, but that's what fractional

leadership can give you. And other fractional leaders I'm
seeing, they can give scale ups and startups that expertise.
They can bring that experience. And a lot of those

organizations aren't quite ready for full time CRO VP of
sales, you know, they just need help with direction, with
strategy, go to market, messaging, unblocking the pipeline,

and things of that ilk that maybe relatively new AES can't
deliver for them. And they need those AES to be coached and
developed and pointed in the right direction. And that's

where I think a fractional can can help when you're
parachuted in in a fractional sales leadership role, what is
the most common problem that you're seeing straight away on

day one? The priorities like a little bit of a lack of
priorities focus. What's the uniques? And I would probably
Hone think people down on, what's the one thing you know,

there's also one thing that's going to make the biggest
impact. And make sure we get that right. And that's, I
think, a key from a a buying point of view. Are you a good

person for for sales people to prospect? And what I mean by
that is, if I was an SDR or an A and I was prospecting,
would I want to be selling to someone in a fractional role,

and I see it as one of two things. One is they're not really
gonna make any decisions. They're only there part time.
They're really focusing on steadying the shit they don't

wanna buy. The other side of the coin is no they're there to
get shit done. They will buy and they will implement,
particularly if your solution can propel that business.

Should SDRs and AES be targeting fractional leaders, or
should they not? I think if they're, if they're in situ
within companies, then to your point exactly, you're there

to get stuff done, make an impact and make a difference. And
certainly I one of the things I wanted to do at the
beginning was have some relationships with whether it's

technology or service companies that I know, that I can
trust, and I can bring in and make improvements within
companies that I'm working with. So I think, yes, there's

merit in that. Definitely. STRS days, they reach out and
prospect you not all to me personally, because I don't have
that much time each day. But yes, but to fractional leaders,

yeah, I think so. But you don't get hit up too much, though.
I do a bit, actually, not half the time. They still think I
work for open text, so they're trying to sell, maybe

something to do, to do with that, but

I do get quite a few See, I mean, but that's, that's
annoying, right? Because, really, that's just sloppy. You
can see on LinkedIn, you've moved from that role, yeah. But

anyone that is doing a little bit of research on you can see
that you're in a fractional role for certain.

Companies, and what you're saying is you don't get loads of
outreach compared to what you might have done as a sales
dealer at open reach, open tech. Sorry, yeah, I might have

said is probably half what I get and half of what I get
still think I work for open text and that those I'm actually
quite responsive to people, because we've all been there.

And I think if you're a company that's got sales people, and
you're, you're, you're, you're making calls to prospective
customers. I think you should give people that 30 seconds

that they asked for. And if it's interesting, take it
further from there. That's to be fair. How my relationship
with my sales coach started? Can you remember who gave you

the cold call? He told me, Noah, Yeah, I

bet he did, and it was a good cold call, to be fair as well.
He's well coached. It's interesting. Basically, what I'm
taking from that is that the fractional role, if people

aren't prospecting into that, they should be, but they
should take more care to make sure they prospect them at the
right place, not getting them at their previous company.

What's the hardest part do you feel for stepping into a
fractional leadership role, I think it's probably like
joining a new company or a new role. There is some

established dynamics, and you've got to quickly get your way
around those dynamics, particularly if it's a smaller
business and you're working directly with the founders,

they've got established ways of working. And some of those
you've got to support and get behind. And some of those,
you'll want to make an impact and change.

And with your time being so limited with organizations,
what's the average amount of time you spend a company every
every month as a fractional leader? So I've got like two at

the moment. One would be like one to one and a half days a
month, and the other is pretty much two at the moment, and
we're doing that till the end of January. I'm not sure it's

the best way for me and my business, but the way I like to
do it is, I'll do it short term, check the fit is right for
both of us, and then we can look at something longer term.

And with such a limited amount of time, how do you ensure
that you're going to have a long term impact as a fractional
sales leader was a tricky one, because you've got to balance

having a short term impact and getting results quickly. So
it's a mix of being very, very hands on with even
supporting. I'll probably do more selling than I've done for

the last 10 or 15 years. So getting hands on with deals,
supporting deals, whether it's the founders or AES that are
conducting them, but also putting in place better processes

practices for the future. And if, for example, what a common
thing might be, the value based messaging isn't quite right,
that that becomes that questioning around that becomes

intrinsic once you've left. So it's improving those
behaviors, similar to some of the coaching principles. What
is the most rewarding success story you've experienced in a

fractional leadership role? I think the work I'm doing with
curvo, and I can say it because I've you know they know I'm
doing this as well. It is just being involved with them in

hands on deals, tweaking slightly the messaging that they're
giving and the approach to proof of concepts and the sales
process, seeing them adopt some of those and actually having

wins and successes. And we'll do more than maybe a quiet
curry and a few beers if we get something when we get the
next one, it sounds like you're doing a lot of coaching for

them as well. Yeah. Reasonable. Let's talk about the role of
coaching in sales. And as I picked up it earlier on,
although you're saying, Well, I've not done that

intentionally, it feels like you've always looked for people
that have walked in your shoes, had the success that you
want, and you've sort of embraced that. And what about

yourself? Have you have Have you ever had an actual coach,
and coaching relationship with someone coaching you, yes, so
actually, can I go back like a tiny bit? So when I was at

the Apple dealership, we get there in the company ended up
getting acquired. I knew at that point I wanted to leave and
go and work in an environment where I could be could learn

value based selling, learn more complex deals. I went to a
couple of companies for interviews. I was offered a role at
Compuware that, at the time they had a real coaching

culture. I mean properly, old school coaching culture. And,
you know, my boss sent me home for my shoes not being
polished once, you know, and I don't know what you think I'm

wearing the trainers or whatever today, so he would not be
happy, but it was a very different environment. But we do
have a forecast deal reviews would last an hour on one

single deal. All completely new to me, but I kind of
understood the sales process and how that followed. He was
very, very focused on coaching. Not much empathy, but he was

very, very focused on coaching. He was excellent. I've
always looked for managers that will coach as well. Can you
give us a few examples where you have been a sales leader

for a number of years, but you've had a situation where,
actually, I want a sounding board, I want to go to someone
else, like, can you give us an example of where you've had

to do.

That and how the coach has helped you. This wasn't the
formal coach, but when I was offered the European role at
open text, I did go to somebody had been my previous manager

and who'd been a really good coach for me, and I wanted to
use them as a sounding board as to, is this the right thing
for me to do? And similarly, with my own coach that I've

been using when I was looking to set up leaps and work with
you guys,

he was very good, just for giving me that bit of extra
confidence that it would be a success. When you talk about
hiring managers, you were saying you always look for

managers that are coaches. Tell me, how are you looking for
that? What is your way in which you identify if a manager
would be a good coach interested beyond the short term? I

think invented some of the questions they might ask during
the interview. The fact that they talk about coaching.
Talking about coaching is probably something that's come in

more in the last 1010, years, and like everybody I'm
speaking to, is talking about coaching at the moment, not
really because I'm doing coaching, but even say, open text

and other big companies, they are in trying to induce
coaching culture beyond deal reviews. Why do you think
that's changed over the last 10 years? I think there's been

a bit of a shift away from training and like a one size fits
all you know, if you look at most sales teams, they've got a
wide range of skills and experience, and I think a singular

training course on one topic isn't going to work for
everyone in the room, and I think that coaching gives more
focus on the individual and exactly their needs. Why do so

many businesses still pick for that singular everyone in one
room option? Then I think they think it's good for morale. I
don't mean I think sometimes it can be a good team building

exercise, but I don't think it's moving the needle stuff. I
think people will, well, there's all the data, isn't there?
People will go, they'll listen to it. They'll forget, I

can't remember the exact percentage, but they'll forget 90%
of it within a fortnight, and there'll just be those one or
two snippets that they they take with them. I think

coaching, especially if you lead the person to the answer,
is lot longer lasting, and it's proven to be let's talk
about like, maybe coaching and where managers you've seen

get it right, get it wrong. When you're seeing Managers
Coach when you're experiencing what coaching looks like in
the companies that you're working for, what do you think the

biggest misconception companies sales leaders have around
coaching that it's a bit wooly and theoretical, and that
they're doing it already, and I love there was a piece of

data from the research that you guys did. And I guess being
sales leader you we all like numbers, don't we, but I
remember it was 90% of sales leaders think that they coach

their teams regularly, and only 38% of sellers get regular
coaching. And there's obviously a massive Mitch match there
somewhere. Isn't there? And I think that's really the hub of

the question. I mean, yeah, you remember that data really
well, like, just for the record? Yeah, I think, I think
right. I think you're right. 38% of reps claim they rarely

get coaching. Yeah, yet, 90% of sales leaders claim they
coach at least once a month. Let's expand on your answer.
Why do you think there is such a disconnect there? Well,

there's a couple of reasons. One would be

sales leaders would often, and perhaps I've done this as
well in the past, think that a deal review is coaching. And
I think a deal review could be coaching if it's a if it's a

trend or something that's going to impact other deals, and
you're actually even calling out what you're you're
spotting. I think that's probably the number one reason. And

the second is people are just looking at in quarter
situations, or maybe total pipeline as a whole. Doing
coaching as we do it myself coach, and I'm involved in now.

I get to I get more time so I do it properly. I can analyze
meetings. I can sit in on recordings. I can give very
constructive feedback, and you have dedicated sessions with

no distractions and nothing else. It's just there for
coaching where even sort of a one to one, I think, you know,
a lot of people would consider that to be part of their

coaching, but it's only coaching. If you're coaching during
that one to one, obviously you're you'll appreciate the
sentiment of sales leaders being busy, right? And you think

of all the things that sales leaders have to do, and that
can be on any given day, but recruiting, onboarding,
training, coaching, one to ones, deal, reviews, forecasting,

internal meetings. What do you believe is the main thing
sales leader can do to help their people achieve their
goals? To be involved, to get involved in deals, to be very

hands on, supportive, to demonstrate you're in it together.
I think is a really powerful attribute. I.

Think if things within the business need to change, that
actually you're steering the business to make changes. Your
sales has got to have a voice with product, with marketing,

so that you're you're demonstrating leadership, not just
managing the forecast and managing upwards. You're having an
impact on making change whilst you're doing that, you know,

coaching people for the long term, not just for what do you
need to say to get this deal done? When you talk about all
the things they can do, it feels like a big part of what

you're saying. There was like, you know, get, get involved.
Be be on the sales calls. Be listening to what's going on.
And you obviously can listen to cool recordings or Listen

Live, etc. How do you avoid the challenge that comes with
being on live calls where you just take over, because that's
not going to help the rep long term, that can be a tricky

one. I mean, I would always set the roles quite clearly at
the beginning, and I think the role of a leader is to be
secondary on those calls. I've had some leaders that that

they're saying, Well, I'm the I'm the leader. I'm going to
lead the core. I don't, personally, I'm not on that camp. I
think you're the kind of the co pilot. You're there to

demonstrate leadership support. Maybe answer some specific
questions that might be a little bit more strategic, but I
think that, you know, real key for me would be just having

clarity of roles at the beginning. You know, you'll do the
intros, you'll do the agenda setting, clarify the
objectives. I'll probably pick up this, this and this

question, but let them take the lead. And I wouldn't really
expect, you know, if you're, if it's an A sales director.
I'd expect the AE to be doing 75 80% and the sales director

20 25%

I'm sure it might be somebody listening who say I didn't do
that, but I think I've done that throughout my career.
Here's a situation that I see play out, and this happens to

me as well. But you say all that you do the intros, you ask
these questions, but when the prospect realizes who who's
power, who's at power, power goes to power. And I can see in

calls I listen to where that dynamics there, the sales
leader, there's the the ICS there, or calls that I've been
on where I'm the Manager, you can see that the prospect just

wants to talk to you because you're the senior leader on the
call, and I've got a few ways in which I can push it back to
the to the to the IC, but how do you do deal with that?

Yeah, definitely seen that as well. And I would maybe be
taking one or two questions on and then take, you know, so
that actually I am working with that customer, delivering a

little bit what they want, so that I'm actually answering
and being engaged fully, but I would tend to deflect it back
to the individual contributor. So I'm not saying to this

every time, but my normal routine, I think, for that
situation, would be, want to answer the one or two
questions, make some points, but also then deflect it back

to the individual contributor. Hey, sales leaders, do you
want a cost effective way to develop your team skills and
help them smash their quotas. My sales coach offers team

memberships for just 20 pounds per month per individual plus
VAT. This will give your reps access to small group tactical
coaching sessions, daily power hours and exclusive events,

all led by world class sales coaches with over 25 group
sessions to choose from monthly there's something for every
role. We have sessions for SDRs all the way up to CROs.

Empower your team to perform to their best visit
mysalescoach.com to get started. The link is in the
description. A lot of people that listen to the podcast

Richard are sales leaders, but we also got a lot of aspiring
sales leaders, unless someone's got 30 years experience in
this realm of sales and sales leadership. What's the biggest

mistake you see first time sales leaders making, and how can
they avoid it? Yeah, thank you for pointing that out again.
So I think for first time sales leaders, I think one of the

biggest challenges is trying to demonstrate, you know, all
the answers straight away. And I think you've got to listen
to your team. You've got to give them chance to shine and

collaborate and work on things together. And I think that's
probably the number one, and the number two might be
following the noise. So it might be, you might have a very

noisy AE who wants lots of help, and it's easy to then just
respond to everything he or she is asking, whereas that
might not be the best use of your time, I think you've got

to treat it like a territory, maybe build a bit of a plan
and apportion your time in a more structured way when we
talk about, like your length of time as a sales leader.

Thanks. I want

how it's changed, and let me, I suppose, give you a more
focused question, but you've experienced at 24 meeting
someone the car park with a box of stuff saying, you know,

thanks, but it's over to being a fractional sales leader now
working with sales leaders. What? What skills have you seen
come into the game that modern sales leaders need now they

didn't.

Used to need and and how can they learn those skills? I
mean, it's way it's way more inclusive. Now I actually do
feel sales is considered, is not there yet, but more as a

profession is very much more long term customer thinking.
And, you know, really exceeding and delivering on
expectations is is very much more critical now than it

perhaps was at the beginning of my career. I think data and
AI is having an impact, as the you say, about call
recordings using, you know, AI intelligence and things could

is very, very powerful. And data reporting is, is, is key as
well. And I think it may be, if you I think of sales
sometimes a bit of kind of somewhere between an art and a

science. And there's obviously debate, is it an art? Is it a
science? I think it's moving slightly more to the science
end of that spectrum over the time that I've been in my

career. When you say it's moving more towards a science,
what are do you think is being lost? I don't think it's
necessarily being lost, because I think with even some of

the like the technology I've been looking at more recently,
shows things like key moments in a call so and it's sharing
that with other people. And how do those key moments

determined, whereas you didn't used to have that, it might
just be want you to go on a meeting with a good sales guy, a
new old girl, then you can just see and hear how they they

operated. So I think some of that science is is used to
enable others with, you know, to get that art right. And I
think that sometimes there's too much emphasis on, are we

got a playbook for that? We got a playbook for this. You
know, people need to understand how you know, how to
determine value, how to dig into problems and pains and and

that piece, I don't think, is getting lost, but the amount
of people that I'm coaching that I'm needing to go into the
importance of that, and they're not necessarily as aware of

it as I would have expected. That's probably a bit of a
surprise. I think one of the things that I'm seeing, and
you're right about conversation, intelligence, right space,

I know really would, yeah,

I feel like the art is still there, but the art is taking
the science and making it look like an art. And what I mean
by that is you now have, like, a repeatable talk track that

you know is scientifically proven. Yeah, you know the best
questions to ask. You know when to ask them, how to ask
them, because you've got hundreds, if not 1000s of core

recordings that show you from your team ask this question.
This works. Have this many stakeholders at this power deals
should last this long, this value, and I think it's you have

all this science, but where you got to be is kind of like
how you describe your dad. You've got to be that performer
that can make that feel like this is a natural conversation

where two people are engaging. They're looking to buy. All
you're doing is there to help them. And actually, everything
you do is extremely calculated from a science point of view,

but the art is making it feel really natural. And I think
it's, it's that flipping it where it's, is it an art or
science? It's both, but the art is wrapping the science up

into it, into a performance. I like that answer. Can I not
have that answer in terms of your legacy? I'm not trying to
make it sound like you're about to go anywhere, but

obviously you you've now set up leaps, and you're working as
a coach at my sales coach. And you know your your mission is
to help salespeople. The reason I asked you when I, when I,

when I called out, when you said, I've done quite well in
previous roles is, how do you measure that today, versus
then, when? How do you measure success now? Is the question

really versus when you were IBM doing, you know, 4 million
pound a year, four year deals. Do you measure it the same
way? Or is it different? It is definitely different. So I

think when I first started and when I was selling,

I'm very competitive, but probably much more so than it.
I've been told loads of times I'm much more competitive than
it perhaps comes across. I think I sort of feel people feel

I'm quite calm, quite quietly spoken, but I'm massively
competitive with myself. I've constantly striving to kind of
prove myself in everything that I would do. So I think in

the beginning it would just be around winning competition,
and they were my key drivers. I think I loving being able to
help people. I mean, obviously I'm not a charity or

anything, so I'm still doing it for commercial drivers, but
I love having the opportunity to impact businesses, help
individuals and see them improve. It's really powerful. It

does feel like a totally different measure of success. Yeah,
I get you're doing that commercial game, but so is everybody
Right? Exactly? Yeah, I'd say lots of people listen to this

Iris sounds. Are a sales leader or aspiring sales leaders.
Let's say you're going to start coaching someone that wants
to become a great sales leader. What would you say are the

non negotiables that they need to have as principles to
become a great sales leader? Integrity, I think, is
massively important. You've got to be.

Fair. You gotta be equitable with everybody. I think open
and honest as well is critical, just in terms of everyday
dealings, but also your feedback. If you're you know, I've

perhaps been guilty of being too polite in the past, but I'm
too English. But I think if I've definitely feel like I've
really come on leaps and bounds in terms of being very open

and direct with with feedback and passion. You gotta love
what you're doing and the environment you're in. Richard,
we're official one final question, but let's imagine you're

about to start coaching someone that's been in sales for
four years, right? Okay, yeah, they say,

I think I'm crap. It's ours. I don't know what to do. What
would your advice be? Well, it takes me back a long time
that you've reminded me of that several times, but if that,

if that was me in that situation, and what I'd do
differently is I'd want to understand the root cause why I
think that's the case, I would speak directly and honestly

with my own manager, but I think more importantly, I'd call
you me and get some help and do something about it. I'm here
whenever they want to give me a call. Likewise,

Richard, thanks for coming on, coming up to Newcastle. It's
great to Great to have you in the studio. Great to have you
in the office and spend some time with you. Thank you. It's

been fantastic. Thank you for hospitality and the
conversation. Welcome.