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What started as an exploration of the devil in their show, The Exorcist Minute, has grown into something much greater. Find all the original episodes of the show and more right here in The Devil's Details with Lester Ryan Clark and Kynan Dias.
Coming up on the devil's details, Babylon, and on and on and on. Revelation chapter 17. Good morning, Star, and welcome to another episode of the Devil's Details, a show where we dig up, decipher, dissect, and deconstruct the many forms of the devil. One of my names is Little Whore. Waited until this episode.
Kynan Dias:Very good.
Lester Ryan Clark:Held it Yeah. Held it like a like a like a birthday secret.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. And I sometimes go by the mother of harlots.
Lester Ryan Clark:And we are just two lost souls hitchhiking down the highway to hell.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. On top of the great beast. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:So so where are you going, sailor? You going going our direction? Mhmm. No.
Kynan Dias:Yep. So I guess, yeah, fair warning. We're talking about the whore of Babylon, and that's what she's called. And I don't think it works the same if we were to translate it into the PC, the sex worker of Babylon.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we're gonna find out It's the bible.
Lester Ryan Clark:Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we're gonna find out, like, it it's not even referring to a person.
Kynan Dias:So Mhmm. Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. But, yeah, folks, welcome back. We are we are deep into Revelation now. We're on chapter 17. And and if you've been with us the whole the whole time, you know, we have been peeling this thing back layer after layer, and it it just keeps getting stranger and crazier.
Lester Ryan Clark:And every single chapter, I'm like, okay. Well, that's that's the weirdest thing that is ever gonna happen, and it'll be downhill from from there. But I'm every every single time, I'm
Kynan Dias:wrong. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Because now we have a horror of Babylon. Yeah. But, yeah, enough teasing, unless you like that. Mhmm. Now let's let's let's jump right into the chapter.
Lester Ryan Clark:So here it is. Revelation chapter 17. And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me saying unto me, come hither, I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters, with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness, and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and 10 horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication.
Lester Ryan Clark:And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. And the angel said unto me, wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and 10 horns.
Lester Ryan Clark:The beast that thou sawest was and is not and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. When they behold the beast that was and is not and yet is. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sith, and there are seven kings, five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come.
Lester Ryan Clark:And when he cometh, he must continue a short space, and the beast that was and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the 10 horns which thou sawest are 10 kings, which have received no kingdom as yet, but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the lamb and the lamb shall overcome them for he is lord of lords and king of kings and they that are with him are called and chosen and faithful. And he saith unto me, the waters which thou sawest where the horse sitteth are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues and the 10 horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore and shall make her desolate and naked and shall eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
Lester Ryan Clark:For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will and to agree and give their kingdom unto the beast until the words of God shall be fulfilled. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Okay. So
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Reigneth over me, mama.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Mhmm. I once again, I am unfamiliar with this chapter. How about you, Keenan?
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. I'm unfamiliar with it. When we were getting ready to do this show, and I I read this, this is again where I was like, why do they say there's only two beasts here? Clearly, he's another beast here. Mhmm.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. But it's the same one, I guess. Why did I introduce him like it's a new beast?
Lester Ryan Clark:I know. Yes. No. No. You are absolutely right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Because, like like, behold, he's seven heads and 10 horns. It's like
Kynan Dias:Oh, We've never seen this before.
Lester Ryan Clark:And then the angel literally said that you have seen this before.
Kynan Dias:And so and we stayed like that then. Yes. I was I remember this one, but in the context of me being very angry with it.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. Yes. This beast was and is not and yet is. Okay. So, like, sitting and trying to decipher this, it like, this is one of those those chapters.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like, it just the language itself. And I don't know. Maybe it's it's because of the English translation, but it is so twisty turny. Yep. So it it it's like it is purposely made to confuse you.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. I've been reading again, on studylight.org, I've been reading the version of the King James Bible, which is standard, but then also literal translations and easy to read versions for this this book. And, yeah, it still is as twisty and weird and and hard to understand sometimes.
Lester Ryan Clark:Even in the chapter where the angel is literally, like, stopping the narration and being like, let me tell you what this symbol means. Like, this is it's like, there is no actual, like like like, beast or dragon. It's it's it's it's these things. Right? Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yep. Yeah. Yeah. But but, yeah, it doesn't it it actually muddies the waters a little bit more. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:And the waters are people, apparently. So there you go. Yeah. There we go. Oh, yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. Well, when, you know, I like I I guess, thank goodness for this angel, but still, like Mhmm. He could be a little less cryptic. Just a bit.
Lester Ryan Clark:But, you know, who are we like like, beggars can't be choosers when Mhmm. It's the end times, I guess.
Kynan Dias:I guess so.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. But but as we know, folks, right, the like, that's that is the the popular interpretation that this this that this is foretelling the end times that this will all happen later. Right? But we know, like, as we've been, like, going through this thing, this is basically John talking about the pattern that always happens when empire kind of, like, over bloats and gets too strong. But, yeah, so before we research this thing, like, what was our first impression?
Lester Ryan Clark:Like, who who is this is this whore supposed to be?
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. Yeah. It feels like she is like a concubine of the beast or something like that. Mhmm. Of like a, you know, a satanical, yeah, hanger on or something.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. So she's like part of the the court of the devil. But but, yeah, is I don't know. Here, she's powerful for about two chapters, doesn't seem to be, like, of the same level as the beast of the red dragon and all
Lester Ryan Clark:that. Right. But, like, like, certainly, we're reading her as, like, a character and not Mhmm. Like, she ends up being.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. She's a lady.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Mhmm. Yep. Yep. Yep.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yep. What do got clothes on? What do you what do you saying, John? What do you saying?
Lester Ryan Clark:But but, yeah, let's look at the popular interpretation. Like like, what do what do most people, assume, this character is Mhmm. Largely based on, the evangelical view. Yeah. So lots of folks think, the Catholic church.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? A lot of a lot of Protestant interpreter, interpreters went there. Mhmm. But, yeah, you know, the seven mountains are the seven hills of Rome, which is true. That's that's what they are.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. So so, obviously, it's the Vatican. That's the conclusion they come with. Mhmm. And the pope is, you know, the Antichrist and Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:You know, all that all that good, know, reformation era, you know, beef that that people are still, you know, holding on to five hundred years later, you know, it's like, you know, that's that's that's fueling this thing.
Kynan Dias:Yes. So that would be John predicting that the the pope would exist because there was no pope in the NIC. Yeah. That that the the Vatican would exist. There was no Vatican, etcetera.
Kynan Dias:So, yeah, so that would be the view that he's predicting these things.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Pretty good guess, John.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. And I did see that in the Schofield Reference Bible, which we talked about as being where in America we we first, you know, really codified, like, the rapture, we put it in in the Bible, right, like, in our little footnotes next to them. So Mhmm. Similarly, they they would say that this is the papacy here.
Lester Ryan Clark:Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. Or some people say that she's the European Union because, you know, apparently apparently, the EU is, like, you know, super evil and wants to create a one world government.
Kynan Dias:They all use the same money.
Lester Ryan Clark:Uh-huh.
Kynan Dias:You must be the devil.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yep. Yep. Yep. Mhmm. Why would you do that?
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? Yeah. Or or this character could be some kind of, like, future one world religion that will deceive everyone during the tribulation.
Kynan Dias:Alright. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:The peace's religion or the antichrist religion.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. The people who have that belief really think that that's possible. They live in a world where amongst Christianity there's all these different sects and there's not even though the Catholic church is over a billion people, there's lots other ones, but they're convinced that there will be somehow some one religion across all of the world.
Lester Ryan Clark:The more I think about that, that bothers me more and more. You're saying that if we ever finally all come to agreement and, you know, like, all join hands and and all, you know, like, like, sing the same song as it were, that's when, like, a portion of us will stand up and say, this is the work of Satan.
Kynan Dias:Yep. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Got it. So so let's never do that, and let's always be arguing and and beefing with each other.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:That's the safest thing.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. It seems so difficult. I mean, like, I I don't know. Like, all the major religions have big, you know, branches in them and and breaks, and
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm.
Kynan Dias:It's hard enough even amongst, you know, we see, like, in America, like, Buddhists as being so peaceful and ecumenical, but we had a giant divides there over there where Right. They they would not get along. They refused to, you know, let let bygones be bygones even though, you know, they're Buddhists. Yeah. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Mhmm. Mhmm. Right. We can't even like like, you know, can't even get atheists to agree on on stuff.
Kynan Dias:Right. Exactly.
Lester Ryan Clark:My version of not god is different from your version of not god.
Kynan Dias:I had made the mistake of referring to a friend as an atheist and saying, you know, because you're an atheist, he said, I'm an agnostic, and they were very upset with me, and I know they are different, but yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Still. Yeah. I I I know that too. What is the difference?
Kynan Dias:An agnostic is leaves room for doubt. They're unsure if there is God.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, okay. That's what I thought. I mean, that's what I knew. I mean, I was I was unsure, and that's why I asked you.
Kynan Dias:That's right. That's very good.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, anyway, finally, she could be you know, this this horror Babylon could be literally the rebuilt city of Babylon in Iraq, which fun fact, Saddam Hussein actually did try to rebuild Babylon.
Lester Ryan Clark:So so that one did get some traction in the nineties and the early two thousands.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Yeah. What's Saddam up to these days?
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. You don't you don't hear from him much. But and and and this beast Mhmm. Right, will have you know, that's the Antichrist, obviously. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:The 10 horns. Right? Those are the 10 nations or 10 kings who will give their power to the Antichrist in the end times to create this new world order, and they'll they'll persecute Christians, and and there'll be a one world currency probably involving microchips or the mark of the beast, and it's all very scary and very specific and very wrong.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. We we've talked about, you know, some of the stuff already. But, like, even this is the chapter where the angel says, no. The beast is not a beast. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:But we still have, like, the popular belief that the beast is a beast.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Well, they keep calling him beasts, so blame John. Blame John.
Lester Ryan Clark:Stop. I blame the angel. Say say empire. Don't say beast. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Ah, well.
Kynan Dias:You know? It's a metaphor.
Lester Ryan Clark:It's a metaphor. Right? What's a metaphor? Nothing. What's a metaphor?
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. But okay, folks. Here's the thing. And, you know, we've been saying this, like, every episode, you know, but I'll say it again.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? John wasn't writing about our future. He was writing about his present. And once you understand that, once you understand the historical context and the the coded language he's using, the chapter becomes so much clearer and and actually much more relevant. So, yeah, let's let's actually read this chapter the way John's original audience would have read it.
Lester Ryan Clark:And remember, his audience was a bunch of persecuted Christians in the Roman Empire in the late first century, probably around ninety to ninety five CE under the reign of the emperor Domitian, who was not a fan of Christians to put it mildly. Mhmm. So John starts off. One of the angels says, come here. I'll I'll show you the judgment of the great whore that sits upon many waters.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? And right away, we we gotta talk about this language. Right? Whore or harlot in ancient Jewish prophetic literature was always always always always used as a metaphor for a city or a nation that had abandoned God and gone after other gods or had become corrupted by wealth and power. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:So it it's not about sex. It's not about women. Well, I mean, the fact that they're using this metaphor, I'd like it it is about women.
Kynan Dias:Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Because they're they're comparing the city to to how they view women. So
Kynan Dias:Right. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. But ultimately, it is about empire, capital e, empire, and it's about corruption and about selling out.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. I mean, the they often in the in the Hebrew Bible would refer to these great capital cities as women and usually sex workers of some kind, and they use also different terms for it. Adulteresses, idolatresses, all of that. So in this chapter, or this book rather, Revelation, we have two women, and they are either, you know, the mother Mary or the whore of Babylon. Right.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. And that's a really common idea. Have you heard about that? Like the the Madonna horror complex?
Lester Ryan Clark:I have heard. Could you could you enlighten us on the show?
Kynan Dias:Yeah. So the idea is it it it's this like Freudian idea that is to talk about this problem that men have, that men tend to simplify women into either being this virgin, that's like pure woman, or this this dirtied whore. Alright? And the Madonna whore complex that the Freudians would argue is basically like, oh, I I can't see women as real people. The only women that I want are virginal, right, like young, pure, clean, they've never had sex with anybody else.
Kynan Dias:And then after the man sleeps with her, either pre marriage or after marriage, I can only see her as a whore afterwards. So basically, my act sleeping of with her has made her dirty in my mind and I can't see her as she was before because you're incapable of seeing women as rounded people.
Lester Ryan Clark:As hard
Kynan Dias:defined as by whether your penis has been inside of her. Right. Yeah. That's the only thing. So this has other implications of we see women as different after they've been devirginized.
Kynan Dias:Some people are arguing virginity is a social contract. There's nothing about someone that's different before or after they have sex for the first And certainly with women so then you kind of invent, like, physical aspects of it say, the hymen is broken or whatever, but women can break their hymen in all sorts of places, and sometimes sometimes you don't break the woman's hymen.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. Buddy. And and that should not like, that that that should be, like, none of your business. Like Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Yeah. Like, whether or not you're the like yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, like, like you were saying, like, like, virginity being a social construct and and, like, different for both men and women.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. Right? Like, like, you know, if you're if you're a male and you're a virgin and then, like, you have sex for the first time Mhmm. Like, it's received much, much different than, like, you know, if you're a woman and you're a virgin and then you have sex. And and, yeah, like, all of that, just just made up just made up bullshit that that we made up.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. You know, all around the world. Right? Because everyone cultures all over the place, like, have, like, like, some set of wacky rules that that decide, like, you know, this is your value before you have sex, this is your value after. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:For both men and women. It's like it it yeah. Just total total bull cocky.
Kynan Dias:Right. Yeah. So, yeah, it's not about an actual literal woman, but we're using, you know, that that really, really gross, you know, binary between the the two. So there's the the mother Mary and the whore of Babylon.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. I'm just thinking that, like, in our Faust season, we were following Gretchen Mhmm. In in Goethe's Faust in the in his part one. Right? And there was that scene where Gretchen's brother oh Valentin.
Lester Ryan Clark:Valentin. Yeah. He was, like, sitting with, like, all of his buddies and just bragging about how, like, like, chaste and pure his sister was.
Kynan Dias:Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:And they were all just kind of, like, like, gushing over, like, all the the ladies of the town. It's like, oh, yeah. You know, she oh, yeah. She's she's so pure and good. And then I don't know.
Lester Ryan Clark:She's so pure and good. And then he pipes up and he's like, well, no one's as like like unfucked as my sister. Right. Exactly. And and they all like raise a glass.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Like, yeah. It's like, to your unfucked sister. And it's like, what? What are we doing?
Lester Ryan Clark:Like Yep. Mhmm. Yeah. I don't know.
Kynan Dias:But I think that was pretty real. Mhmm. Back then. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then that got me thinking of of Dante.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. And you remember, like, our second circle of hell was lust.
Kynan Dias:I remember that.
Lester Ryan Clark:And and, of course, which sex does Dante decide to fill that circle with?
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:It's all with women. And, you know, it's like famous women, mythical women. He can't even he can't even he's gotta he's gotta fill it with, like, imaginary women as well. Right? Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:But he's got, like, historical women like Cleopatra and then, like, like, from what was it? That that proto Romeo and Juliet Mhmm. Yep. Francesca and and Paulo. Right?
Kynan Dias:Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:And and, you know, it's like, what what is that saying? That that, like I think I think I said it in the in the Dante season, but it's it's like so a man sees a woman and he's like, wow. When I look at you, all I think of is sex. That must mean that you are, like, horny all the time.
Kynan Dias:Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like, what stupid logic. But Mhmm. But that was, like, male logic for for, like, a a big chunk of history. And and, like, like, saying that that women were, like, secretly underneath just, like, like, these, like, sex hungry, lascivious creatures because Mhmm. That's all you thought of when you looked at them.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. Mhmm. Like, bleh. Yeah. Anyway.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Yeah. So and now we're here. Book of Revelation. And, yeah, we're using the word whore for a a city that is, I guess, in bed with empire.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Right? Yeah. But, yeah, like, this this happens all throughout the Bible. The prophet Isaiah uses this language about Jerusalem.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Ezekiel uses it. Nahum uses it about Nineveh. So when John's audience hears the great whore, they're not thinking about a literal woman. They're thinking like, okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:Which city is John talking about? Which empire? Right?
Kynan Dias:Yeah. I did see some people today think argue that it is about Jerusalem. I think a lot of authors are like, well, there's the 7 Hills and that's it. That makes sense to me that that's Rome. That's it.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Yeah. I guess Jerusalem also has seven hills. That's not very nice.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. I mean, if you think about
Kynan Dias:it,
Lester Ryan Clark:you know, Vegas like, has, like, at least 7 Hills surrounding
Kynan Dias:neighborhood called 7 Hills.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, yeah. There we go. See? We just
Kynan Dias:named it. It was, this 7 Hills.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. That's where the horror Babylon lives. Mhmm. Yep. Yep.
Kynan Dias:Yep. Yeah. The horror the horror Blue Diamond lives down there.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. 7 Hills, 10 casinos. But yeah. Okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:So you you hear people talking like it's it's Jerusalem and not Rome.
Kynan Dias:I think the the majority of people say Rome, but there are still some people even today who say it's Jerusalem. And it has to do with, like, but but their argument as I understand it is is strange because it's also like because essentially, Jerusalem has become like Rome.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, okay. I see.
Kynan Dias:See. Yeah. So so so it's more your your ultimate argument that it is about empire as a whole.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Interesting that, like, like yeah. It's like because here, we're saying it's like like we're using Babylon like Rome is is the new Babylon, and they're saying they're saying Jerusalem is the new Rome.
Kynan Dias:Is the new Rome is the new Babylon. Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Orange is the new black. Yeah. But But, like but but, actually, yeah, John gives us a huge clue. Right? Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Quote, the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls. Folks, I mean, do you know what colors the Roman emperors wore? Right? They they were purple and scarlet. Do you know what the Roman elite were famous for wearing obscene amounts of gold and precious stones and pearls?
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? So this is Rome. John is talking about Rome. Right? I agree.
Lester Ryan Clark:And whether Rome like, you know, he's like he's like the new Rome or whatever. Right? He he could be like but I think I think like literal Rome. Like Rome in Italy. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:I think so. And then he like, he he really drives it home, quote, and upon her forehead was the name written, mystery Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth. Right? So Babylon. Now John's audience would have immediately understood this.
Lester Ryan Clark:Babylon was the empire that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in May. Mhmm. Babylon was the ultimate symbol of oppressive empire, of tyranny, of the enemy of God's people. And by John's time, Babylon had become a code word for Rome. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Because guess what Rome did in seventy CE? They destroyed Jerusalem again, and they destroyed the temple again. Right?
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. Stenless time. Hadn't finished building it yet.
Lester Ryan Clark:Exactly. I was just gonna say. Right? That's right as he got his blueprints out and he's like, oh, well, we go. There's a nice place for the temple.
Lester Ryan Clark:But, yeah, so so when
Kynan Dias:So sorry. Right. So, you know, the the Hebrews were growing up, you know, where the destruction of the temple in May was just part of their whole culture. That was such a big thing where the neo Babylonians come in and destroyed it. And then now, in John's time, we're talking about in people's lifetime happening again.
Kynan Dias:Yes. So there's a great big wound, right? So, yeah, I think to to put those two things together for the readers of the day is like, well, that's just so obvious.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, so so when John says Babylon, he means Rome, and his audience knows it. This isn't, you know, some future city.
Lester Ryan Clark:This this is the city that is persecuting them right now. And actually, have evidence of this. Other Jewish and Christian writings from this period also use Babylon as a code word for Rome. First Peter chapter five verse 13 says, quote, she who is in Babylon sends you greetings. And scholars are pretty sure that's referring to the church in Rome.
Lester Ryan Clark:It's code. It's it's a way to talk about Rome without, you know, getting immediately arrested and executed for sedition.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:And and folks, this is so important to understand because throughout Revelation, John is writing in code. He has to. It like, if if he just, you know, came out and said Rome is evil and the emperor the emperor is the beast, the the empire is gonna fall, he'd be killed. You know, his his readers would be killed. So he uses this apocalyptic imagery, this this wild symbolism, this and his audience gets it because they're they're living it.
Kynan Dias:That's so interesting when you say it like that because, people online are just in everyday conversation or in text, and they'll talk about Trump. And I'm sure this is true of like, you know, other like Bolsonaro or Putin or Mhmm. Barack or something like that. So you often won't talk about Trump, you'll talk about him.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. So you're like, did you see
Kynan Dias:what he did today? Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, no. No. Folks, folks, I mean, like, if you are listening to this in the future, if if if The United States still exists Mhmm. If you're listening to this in the future, there was a time Mhmm. When all you had to do was make a TikTok of just your face, just just being like, I fucking hate him, and everybody knew everybody knew who you were talking about.
Lester Ryan Clark:Or or like Keenan says, like, oh, did you hear what he did today? Right?
Kynan Dias:Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:I'm gonna I'm gonna top you, Keenan. Mhmm. A lot of people have been talking about the day it happens. Mhmm. And that's and that's all I'm gonna say.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. But, like, that's and that's all you need to know. Everyone's saying it's like, so, you know, how are you gonna celebrate the day it happens? And everybody yeah. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like, everybody knows exactly what we're talking about Mhmm. Without saying it.
Kynan Dias:But, you know, with with Trump so let let me make some explicit ones here.
Lester Ryan Clark:We're talking about Trump?
Kynan Dias:People say, like, you know, the orange one, and they they mean Trump.
Lester Ryan Clark:The Chito Mussolini is my favorite. Chito Mussolini. Right. Exactly. Chito Mussolini.
Lester Ryan Clark:Folks. That's me. Right. I mean I mean, no. That's not me.
Lester Ryan Clark:I don't know where that came from.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. The small handed one. Things like that. Mhmm. Oh, jeez.
Lester Ryan Clark:How about orange.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Yeah. Oh, jeez. Let me see. Hold on.
Lester Ryan Clark:Is that what this episode is devolving into?
Kynan Dias:Well, but this has some this has some point.
Lester Ryan Clark:There's a point to this. Sure. Sure. Sure.
Kynan Dias:Which is that you you you know, if you wrote it all down, you know, you you you'd be like, oh, so the the ruler of the earth was was made of Cheetos and he had small hands and he was literally orange. You know, Trump is orange is orange ish. But, you know, I think if you were reading that, you'd be
Lester Ryan Clark:like, you know, you'd be like, he's literally orange. Right.
Kynan Dias:He's a bright orange Cheeto man with small hands.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Yeah. I He even
Lester Ryan Clark:has an like, a a a beast like number. Right? Because people call him forty five or or now they call him forty seven.
Kynan Dias:Uh-huh. Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Uh-huh. Because they don't wanna say the president because, like, it just it feels like you're gargling shit in your mouth.
Kynan Dias:My boyfriend would get mad me when I would say that during the first term. I would say
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, really?
Kynan Dias:The president yes. Would say, today, the president and this is right. He says, don't say that.
Lester Ryan Clark:Just call him 45.
Kynan Dias:Right. Agent Orange, Cheeto, The Donald, which is something that he liked. He called it up. Don the Con, Fautus, like f a u t u s, f a u x t u s, like faux.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like like oh, faux. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Like Fautus. Yep. Mhmm. Cadet Bone Spur.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know Bone Spur. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Tic Tac.
Lester Ryan Clark:Tic Tac. What's that?
Kynan Dias:Just that he's just a weird, small looking like, he's made of Tic Tacs, I guess.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, okay.
Kynan Dias:Little hands. Little hands.
Lester Ryan Clark:Little hands. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Yeah. Vladiesboy.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, yeah? Yeah. Mhmm. Mhmm. And folks in the future, that's that's Vladimir Putin we're talking Sweet
Kynan Dias:potato Hitler. Mango Mussolini.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, yes. Mhmm. Mhmm. Our fondling Like like, okay. Mango Mussolini wasn't mine.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mine was Cheeto moose, but it's just it rhymes better.
Kynan Dias:I think I think you're right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Hey. Yours
Kynan Dias:is better. Our fondling father. Oh. Don Horlione.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Kynan Dias:Pumpkin spice Stalin.
Lester Ryan Clark:Okay.
Kynan Dias:Kim Don Un.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh. Oh. Yeah. You know?
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Cheeto Bonito, the lion king.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, the lion, like l y I n apostrophe?
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. These are these are these are pretty good.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, orange Palpatine. No. It was a tangerine Palpatine, I think it was.
Kynan Dias:Oh, I like that. The shart of the deal. Yeah. His majesty.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, yeah. Mhmm. I'm glad you found these. Was I was furiously googling.
Kynan Dias:The Ayatollah Complainy. Okay. Mhmm. Tanable Lector.
Lester Ryan Clark:Tanable Lector. Okay. I
Kynan Dias:like it. The Not So Great Pumpkin. Carrot Bottom.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. Because that thing with Bubba. Right? Mhmm. Mhmm.
Kynan Dias:The Legend of Bragger Vance. Okay. Magatha Christie.
Lester Ryan Clark:Okay. Mhmm.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. Mhmm. And Yelvis. I don't know if I get that one.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh. Oh. Oh. I heard that. Okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:Okay. I'm mad that that that is attributed to him. Mhmm. Because that was a very, very funny joke that I I heard somebody somebody else do. I think it was Dan Avedon who we we've talked about on this show.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. The the the the main guy of Ninja Sex Party. But he he he was just like he was on what was it? Game Grumps. That was his thing.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like, they him and another guy, like, they play games and they make jokes. Mhmm. But he's like, oh oh, I I I have a really great impression. This is Yelvis. And and then he just goes, you ain't nothing but a house dog.
Kynan Dias:So Excellent. That is
Lester Ryan Clark:that's where Yelvis needs to be. I don't want it associated.
Kynan Dias:Alright. Alright. Yeah. I don't get it with Trump,
Lester Ryan Clark:but Yeah. Yeah. But, Yeah. Anyways, my whole point Yes. Yes.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes.
Kynan Dias:That, yeah, we you know, people could have this common language or develop this common language and and people could understand each other.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Kynan Dias:And they wouldn't necessarily see it as as like a secret code, really,
Lester Ryan Clark:in
Kynan Dias:their everyday lives.
Lester Ryan Clark:It's kind of kind of like it's it's like a very, very obvious wink. Like, everybody knows what we're talking about. Right? Right. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like, when we say
Kynan Dias:maybe some censors, the the Greeks the the Roman centurion or something might not understand what we're talking about.
Lester Ryan Clark:Sure. Sure. Right? But they'll eventually, you know, get it. But, like, but then you have like, with some of these, you can kind of, like, get away with, like, plausible deniability.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like Mhmm. When we just say, like, when it happens. Mhmm. You know? And everybody knows what we're talking about, but also it could be anything.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Mean, you know, the the previous president for a while, for a good, like, two years of his presidency, was called Brandon.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. Like, it's the Aleppo Brandon thing.
Kynan Dias:Was his nickname amongst people. They were talking about Brandon. Right. And so it's like you you sort of have to know what that is and the
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. But, I mean, yeah, to to your point, Keenan, like, yeah, a thousand, two thousand, five thousand years from now, like, are we going to have, like, images of of, like, a giant orange monster with tiny, like, little hands Mhmm. Who, you know, like like, I don't know, eats children or something like that. You know?
Kynan Dias:Yeah. And here's here he is. There's a photo of him floating above the River Thames. Oh, yeah. Diaper.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. And now with AI, like, are literal, like, pictures of him, like like, dressed like Jesus.
Kynan Dias:So Oh, yeah. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. I don't know. I don't know anymore, folks. I'm I'm feeling like those first century readers. I'm just like, I like, I'm throwing up my notes.
Lester Ryan Clark:I'm just like, you know?
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. But, yeah, Keenan Mhmm. Of of all the episodes we've done Mhmm. I I do think this is gonna be the one that disappears us. I'm a little
Kynan Dias:Just because we we mention things that they say in the news?
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure. But yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Okay. Bringing it back. So then we get to verse three. Quote, I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast full of names of blasphemy, like, you know, Tangerine Palpatine or Chito Mussolini or you know? I mean, that's the other thing I forgot to say.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like, he has as many names as as the beast or the devil. I mean, I'm just saying.
Kynan Dias:Sure. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast full of names of blasphemy having seven heads and 10 horns. So the beast.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? We we have met this guy before, right back in chapter 13. Right? Have we? Have we have.
Lester Ryan Clark:This is the beast.
Kynan Dias:Alright. Good.
Lester Ryan Clark:The beast slash the antichrist. Right? Mhmm. And we talked about how the beast is Rome specifically, the Roman Empire as this like demonic oppressive force, and it's quote full of names of blasphemy because Roman emperors claimed to be divine. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:They put son of God and lord and savior on their coins and their temples. Right? That's blasphemy to a Jew or a Christian. That's the ultimate insult to God. So a a an empire that has a list of emperors that all claim to be God.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? That's that that is a beast with many names of blasphemy. Mhmm. Right? Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:And then, you know, verse six, this one this one always gets me. Quote, and I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. So Rome is drunk on Christian blood. Again, not prophecy. This is memory.
Lester Ryan Clark:This is John looking at what Nero did, what Domitian is doing. The persecutions, the executions, the Christians being thrown to the lions in the Colosseum, being burned alive, being crucified. Rome is literally getting drunk on their blood, celebrating their deaths as entertainment.
Kynan Dias:And again, using her, like, as this woman, the sensual image of of her, you know, getting drunk on the blood, not just like drinking the blood and, you know, being sustained by it like the beast would or the the dragon would. This is like, oh, she she takes pleasure in it, like physical pleasure.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. This is this Like woman.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Has has feelings of enjoyment. How dare she? Right? Mhmm. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:But, no, that's a good point. Right? It's in like like, all of these things, like, this is this is killing and slaughtering and torturing for for fun. Right? This isn't like like we're we're not like, oh, we gotta defeat, you know, these these Christians or these Jews, like, you know, in battle or something like that.
Lester Ryan Clark:No. Let's let's crucify them. Let's feed them to the lions. Let's Mhmm. You know, let's let's torture them.
Lester Ryan Clark:This is this is our this is our halftime show at Super Bowl. Mhmm. Right? And then, yeah, right, like, if we were still clueless, the angel actually starts explaining the symbolism.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:The the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth. And, yeah, folks, I think we mentioned. Right? Rome has its famous seven hills surrounding it. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Like, being built on seven hills, the seven hills of Rome. Right? So it's not subtle. This isn't like vague prophecy about some future city. John is saying Rome.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like, he's pointing directly at Rome and saying this this is the beast. This is Babylon.
Kynan Dias:I I did see that there was at least one when was this? In seventy AD, a a a coin minted with a a woman on top of seven hills being Rome. So it was a coin about Rome. And then, yeah, Rome Rome had a deity itself. Like, you know, the the religion the Roman religion was very much like a localized religion.
Kynan Dias:Like, you could have, yeah, the the god of thunder or what have you, I'm butchering it, but we could also have the god of this particular building or this street or whatever.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Yeah. So there was there was a Roma who was the goddess, and so this would not be, like, atypical, you know, to say, like, this
Lester Ryan Clark:is the point.
Kynan Dias:Here she is.
Lester Ryan Clark:And it could be I mean, like, to what you're saying, Keenan, it could be that John is maybe being even more literal, and he's, like, referencing, like Mhmm. This coin that was, like, popular at the time. It was, like, you know, kind of, like, going it it it was it was, like, currently circulating, and people was like, oh, obviously. Right?
Kynan Dias:Yes. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like, if we did, like, you know, our symbol of you know? And and we will talk about, like, you know, the eagle of oppression or something like that. And it's clutching, you know what is it? What is it clutching? It's like like a a bunch of arrows?
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Arrows. Like, yeah. I like like, super super easy to to get biblical with that. Like, just the image of, you know, on the back of our, you know, coins.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right?
Kynan Dias:Yeah. I couldn't find a picture of this coin, but I've seen so I've just seen it described a couple different places. But it it also, I think, has her, like, taming animals.
Lester Ryan Clark:Okay.
Kynan Dias:So then here, having having her being part of the beast where she's on top and she thinks that she is in control of this animal, but then it turns out that she's not, like that also being like the irony of her being an animal tamer, but the animals really controlling her. Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then we got verse 10, quote, and there are seven kings, five are fallen, and one is and the other is not yet come.
Lester Ryan Clark:And when he cometh, he must continue a short pace. Okay. So this is where we gotta do a little math.
Kynan Dias:Oh, no.
Lester Ryan Clark:I know. Right? So scholars have debated exactly which emperors John is counting. But if we start if we start with Augustus, the first emperor Mhmm. We get Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. That's five fallen. Then who's the one who is? That's probably Domitian, the emperor when John is writing. And the one not yet come who will continue a short space, that could be the the next emperor.
Lester Ryan Clark:Or or it could be a reference to that Nero redivivis myth. Remember the the idea that that Nero would come back from the dead. Right? People were obsessed with this idea. You know, multiple, like, false Neros running around claiming to be him.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right?
Kynan Dias:Yeah. And again, like, you could hear that the emperor was dead in Rome, but you would never see them before even though you're being controlled by him, but you're hundreds of miles away in a different continent. You know?
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. And you don't know what he looks like.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Exactly.
Lester Ryan Clark:All you got is this coin. Right? You just hold that up to to a guy and it's like, yeah. You kinda got the same nose.
Kynan Dias:You know? Yeah. You're two dimensional.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Sure. Honey, I met a guy who was, like, totally flat. He said he was the emperor of Rome. And actually okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Verse 11 might be hinting at this. Right? Quote, and the beast that was and is not, even he is the eighth and is of the seven and goeth into perdition. So so was and is not and yet is.
Lester Ryan Clark:The Keenan, first, we got the math, and then we got we got these these, like like like word riddles.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Yeah. Don't ask me about what what that means.
Lester Ryan Clark:But it's it's a really strange phrase. But if you think about the neuro I always stumble on this. The neuro redivivivous. No. I I always add an extra syllable.
Lester Ryan Clark:The neuro redivivous. Mhmm. Redivivous. Redivivous. Redivivous.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. The neuro redivivous myth, it makes sense. Nero was, right, he ruled, and is not, he's dead, and yet is. Right? He's coming back supposedly.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? So this is John tapping into this, you know, this cultural fear and anxiety about Nero and, you know, using it to to make his point about the cyclical nature of empire and tyranny. Right? Doesn't really matter if Nero comes back because, like, the you know, there will be another quote unquote Nero anyway. Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Right? And, yeah, folks, this like, this is what I've been trying to say this this whole season. John isn't predicting the future. He is describing a pattern.
Lester Ryan Clark:He is saying, this is what empire does. This is what Rome is. This is what Babylon was. This is what every oppressive empire will always be. It's not like, oh, this will happen someday.
Lester Ryan Clark:It's it's this is always happening. This is the nature of empire.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. You could not convince them, I'm sure, that within a couple hundred years, one of the emperors would be a Christian.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right.
Kynan Dias:Constantine. And then declare it to declare that the the empire was going to be Christian. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. And I love I mean, like, every time we talk about Constantine, I like like, it's just so characteristic of this of this, you know, this image of Rome that we've built up. Right? It's like, I'm going to violently persecute anybody who is Christian.
Lester Ryan Clark:And, oh, now I'm Christian. I'm going to violently persecute anybody who is not Christian. Right? It's like Mhmm. Classic Rome.
Lester Ryan Clark:Now and, yeah, the the 10 horns that are are 10 kings who have, quote, received no kingdom as yet, but received power as kings one hour with the beast. Scholars think this might be referring to client kings or vassal states that Rome controlled or maybe provincial governors. The point is that they're complicit. They have given their power to the beast. They are propping up the empire.
Lester Ryan Clark:Alright? And then verse 16, this is this is where it gets really interesting. The 10 horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore and shall make her desolate and naked and shall eat her flesh and burn her with fire. The beast's own allies are gonna turn on Babylon. They are going to destroy her and folks, this is John saying that empire always eventually destroys itself.
Lester Ryan Clark:It is unsustainable. Rome is gonna fall not because God is gonna, like, supernaturally intervene and and smite them with, you know, lightning bolts and blood. Right? But because this is what empire does, it collapses under its own weight. The violence, the greed, the oppression, it all comes back around.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? You can't build a civilization on blood and expect it to last forever. And yeah, verse 18, just just to make it crystal clear, quote, and the woman which thou sawest is that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Right? So what what city reigned over the kings of the earth in ninety five CE?
Lester Ryan Clark:It was Rome. Not not some future city, not the European Union. Brussels. Rome. Brussels.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. Rome. Yeah, folks. You know, like, that that is what chapter 17 is actually about. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:It's not a prediction about the pope or or the antichrist or microchips or, you know, the new world order. It's John, a persecuted Christian under the Roman Empire using coded apocalyptic language to tell his community, Rome is evil, Rome is Babylon, Rome is drunk on our blood, but Rome will fall. Empire always falls. Hold on. Keep the faith.
Lester Ryan Clark:Don't worship the beast. Don't give in.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. This is one of the clearest ones. I I think probably the clearest thing we've seen so far in Revelation where he's like, here's the key to the code. Like, here's this all he's like, that woman is the great city. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. The end.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Thank you, angel. Oh my gosh. Why weren't you here in chapter one? There were so many other angels.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. And there were, like, there were multiple beasts, and we found out they weren't beasts. Mhmm. They were angels. We can
Kynan Dias:call them that
Lester Ryan Clark:for some reason. I don't know. Yeah. But yeah. And and folks, right, that that brings us to today.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? Because because here's the thing about revelation. Right? Here's here's the thing about John's message. It is timeless.
Lester Ryan Clark:Not not because he was predicting our specific future, but because the pattern he's describing keeps repeating. We are living through some really dark times right now. I don't I don't need to tell you that. Right? You're you're watching the news.
Lester Ryan Clark:You're you're seeing the the ICE raids. You're seeing families being torn apart. You're seeing immigrants dying in descent in detention centers. Right? You saw what happened to Renee Goode.
Lester Ryan Clark:You saw what happened to Alex Preti. Right? And these these are just the ones that, like, we've we've seen. Right? There are many names, that that we don't yet know.
Lester Ryan Clark:And I know, like, I've I've joked on the show, before about, you know, Trump being the Antichrist. And and, no, I don't actually believe that. I don't think Trump is, you know, the beast from Revelation. Mhmm. I don't think we're living in the end times but I do think we are living through exactly what John was warning about.
Lester Ryan Clark:We are living through what happens when capital e empire becomes too powerful, when the state demands absolute loyalty, when quote law and order becomes an excuse for cruelty, and when people are scapegoated and dehumanized and treated as less than. John saw Rome doing this to Christians. We're seeing it happen to immigrants, to refugees, to people seeking asylum, to people speaking out. And just like in John's time, there are people in power who are drunk on it. They are celebrating the cruelty.
Lester Ryan Clark:They are turning suffering into spectacle. Alright. Yeah. That is that is one thing that that is getting harder and harder for me personally to stomach, Keenan, is the is the the jokey nature, the is the kind of like laughing about it from, you know, from the higher ups Mhmm. Is is is something that that that really does make me sick to my stomach.
Lester Ryan Clark:But Mhmm. I mean, you know, it has happened before, it's happening again. You know? And I don't know if that's supposed to give me comfort or or or hope, but it does it does give me hope that, like, oh, this too shall pass. You know?
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Yeah. And yeah. And and just like in John's time, right, there are people who are complicit. There are people who are giving their power to the beast, are are propping up this system because it benefits them or because they're afraid or because they have convinced themselves that it is necessary.
Lester Ryan Clark:But again, this is where John's message of hope comes in. Empire doesn't last. Babylon falls. Rome fell. Every empire that has ever built itself upon oppression and violence has eventually collapsed under its own weight.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? It's not sustainable. You cannot build a civilization on cruelty and expect to endure. And in the meantime, while we are waiting for that collapse, we are living through this darkness, John's message to his community is the same message we need to hear today, don't worship the beast. Don't give in.
Lester Ryan Clark:Don't let them make you complicit. Hold on to your humanity. Hold on to your faith. Hold on to each other. And being complicit, I'm I'm kind of like learning.
Lester Ryan Clark:I'm learning this about myself. Being complicit doesn't mean, like like, you know, hey. I support ICE raids or, hey. I'm gonna give money to, you know, these people or whatever. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:It it also can take the form of, like, normalizing it in your mind and your heart. Right? Like, oh, this is just this is just, you know, America. This is what happens. You know, school shootings, ICE raids, you know, this stuff is is normal.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? Mhmm. And and not being properly outraged by it. Mhmm. This this is just my opinion.
Lester Ryan Clark:I don't know if if you agree with me, Keenan, but I've I've said before that if you're not loudly speaking against what's going on today, then you are in some way complicit because there there are people who who can't speak out. Right? They're afraid to speak out. They they don't have the luxury of speaking out because they will be found and they will be, you know, taken. And it I don't know.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like like, it it makes me think of you know, we're we're talking about the future. We're talking about, like, let's say, a hundred years from now when people are reading about this in their history books. Right? And they will have so much more data and so much more stuff to work with than our history books. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:We got, you know, like, some blocks of text and, you know, some black and white photos. Right? Mhmm. And we you know, back in the day, we couldn't look up, you know, the names of those people in those photos. And I was like, oh, I wonder what, you know, they were like, you know, when, you know, when they weren't getting photos taken of them.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? Mhmm. But today, I mean, you know, I'm I'm seeing a future where, like, you know, they could just look up your social media account and see what you were posting during this time. Right? And they could see it's like, oh, okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:Well, you know, this guy was loudly speaking out against the administration and and looks like he had a lot of things to say. And this guy is just, you know, posting, you know, funny dog memes.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:You know? And I'm I'm not saying anything about the guy posting funny dog memes, but I feel like history can't help but remember that guy a certain way. Because it's like, oh, like, all of this stuff was happening around you and you didn't have anything to say? Like, here's picture of my garden. Oh, here's a picture of, you know, it's like my Wordle of the day.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? Mhmm. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm overthinking it.
Lester Ryan Clark:But
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Well, there's some people who, you know, try to say that, like, politics is that they're not political and they don't wanna get involved in I the argument is that well, then that essentially means that you are advocating for the status quo, whatever the status quo is. Right. So that tends to be you know, when people say that they're not political and they they don't have opinions, they don't wanna get involved, that tends to just be a conservative statement. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:So whatever whatever that is. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:I think people, like like, today are are figuring out more than ever the phrase like like, oh, I don't follow politics or I don't wanna talk about politics or or whatever is is shorthand for I am comfortable and okay with everything that's going on right now. Mhmm. And and and I have no problems with the things happening right now. Mhmm. Alright.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. But, yeah, folks, John's community was small. They were powerless. They were they were being hunted and killed, and and John is is writing to them saying, I know it's bad. I know it seems hopeless, but this isn't the end of the story.
Lester Ryan Clark:The lamb will prevail, Babylon will fall. And folks, I I'm not gonna lie to you. I don't know when things are gonna get better. I don't know how long this darkness is gonna last, but I do know that throughout history, every time empire has gotten this bad, people have resisted. People have held on.
Lester Ryan Clark:People have kept their humanity in the face of inhumanity, and we're already seeing it. In this wonderful age of the Internet, we're already able to see just how many people are speaking out and how they are speaking out, and we're seeing it not just in this country, but all over the world. So so that like, every time I see, like, a video of of a protest or or of people of of younger people even, like like, organizing and speaking out and and, I mean, like, younger people know more about the inner workings of our politics than our our our parents, Keenan. Mhmm. Like, they know they know what habeas corpus is.
Lester Ryan Clark:They know what due process is because it's affecting them right now. And Mhmm. And they they they have to know. They have to, you know, learn. And and I'm seeing, like, know, TikToks and and social media posts of people, like like, educating each other about, like, checks and balances and Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:You know, the the the the the term limit of a president and the term limits of, you know, a member of congress or or what have you. Right? Mhmm. All over all over the place, you see people holding on, people keeping their humanity. And, yeah, folks, like I said, eventually, Babylon always falls.
Lester Ryan Clark:So so that's our message for today. Don't lose don't lose hope. Don't give in. Don't let them make you cruel. Don't don't normalize this.
Lester Ryan Clark:Remember that, you know, the the people in power, the people who seem invincible right now, they're not. They're they're just the latest iteration of the same old beast. Right? The same old Babylon. And and and history shows us how this story ends.
Lester Ryan Clark:The horror of Babylon falls. The beast goes into perdition, and the people who held on, who who kept faith, who resisted. They're they're the ones who get to build something better in the ashes. So so yeah. So hold on, folks.
Lester Ryan Clark:We're gonna get we're gonna get through this. Yeah. But but, yeah, folks, this this has been another episode of the Devil's Details. I've been Lester Ryan Clark. You can summon me on all the socials as Lester Ryan Clark.
Kynan Dias:And I've been Keenan Diaz, and you can invoke me on Letterbox and Instagram as Howdy Keenan.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Find more of our shows and other really cool podcasts at truestory.fm, or you can, feel free to drop us a message at banana for scale mail, that's nail,@Gmail.com. We got our Facebook listener group, banana for scale. It's a community for all of our shows, including this one. It's a private group.
Lester Ryan Clark:We'll just request to join, and we'll let you into the infernal If you want more, consider joining us at truestory.fm/join, and look for Banana for Scale. That's us. You get bonus episodes of all our shows, access to our Discord, and you get your episodes a week early and ad free. Pretty cool. Just $5.
Lester Ryan Clark:Wouldst thou like to live deliciously? We're not even asking for your souls. Just give us a five Pentagram rating on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you listen to our show. That and sharing the show by word-of-mouth or on social media is gonna help our little podcast grow and find more cool people like you. Alright, folks.
Lester Ryan Clark:Until next week. Love and hisses.